00:00:20 god descriptions in the manual come from the wiki, right? 00:00:31 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-954-g0a1cc8e: Remove a no-longer-correct comment. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0a1cc8e7a7ec 00:00:31 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-955-g2ef408f: Make the breath timer apply to drakes and lindwurms again. 10(34 minutes ago, 2 files, 21+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2ef408f8b4ac 00:00:31 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-956-g2c70c21: Change a not-currently-satisfiable check to an assert. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2c70c214a8b9 00:00:33 <|amethyst> yes 00:04:17 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-956-g2c70c21 (34) 00:05:25 -!- Guest25468 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:05:36 -!- gammafunk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:13 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:06:13 -!- gammafunk_ is now known as gammafunk 00:06:21 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.14-a0-953-g9e7f188 (34) 00:08:45 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:11:57 -!- bitsailor is now known as Guest61716 00:13:03 -!- SupermanBananaX has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:14:19 -!- lazarenth__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:36 03bh02 07* 0.14-a0-957-g752d673: Remove ally death penalty for Zin and Okie 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=752d673ba7d8 00:16:59 Lua error: 00:16:59 Invalid weight specifier in "!:-3 2:20" x25 00:16:59 A yaktaur, 8 ogres, an iron troll and 2 giants come into view. 00:17:29 err following lua error should be " /crawl-master/crawl-git-859395c47d/data/dat/des/variable/encompass.des:1645: 00:17:30 " 00:17:34 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-956-g2c70c21 (34) 00:18:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:19:31 |amethyst: can you link me to the right spot? I'm not seeing the god descriptions in the manual proper section of the wiki 00:19:31 bh: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 00:20:23 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:49 <|amethyst> bh: wait, where in the manual? 00:21:00 !messages 00:21:00 (1/1) ChrisOelmueller said (3m 34s ago): how about "oka" which is even shorter and approximately 100% less awkward 00:21:19 !tell ChrisOelmueller I appreciate your valuable insights. 00:21:20 bh: OK, I'll let chrisoelmueller know. 00:21:22 <|amethyst> bh: now that I look, I don't see any god descriptions in the manual 00:21:30 <|amethyst> bh: or do you mean in ?/G ? 00:21:46 yes. That sounds like it's in source in that case 00:22:06 indeed. 00:22:25 <|amethyst> Half in source, half in dat/descript 00:24:40 Is there any reason to retain the conduct for Ely? 00:25:20 <|amethyst> Because Ely doesn't need buffed? 00:25:27 <|amethyst> (dialect warning) 00:26:45 <|amethyst> also, keeping your summons away from pacified creatures is probably kind of tedious 00:26:50 <|amethyst> s/summons/allies/ 00:27:37 <|amethyst> and Ely has ways of dealing with the problem 00:27:55 <|amethyst> (i.e. can heal your allies) 00:27:58 I think that does it. The database files looked clean to me. 00:28:04 03bh02 07* 0.14-a0-958-g08bf1ed: Clarify conduct messages for Zin and OkiE. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=08bf1edeba38 00:28:05 -!- Arkaniad_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:28:05 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:28:43 <|amethyst> Oki-E straight out of Compton? 00:29:41 |amethyst: mostly because Chris was sassing me 00:29:48 !tell Grunt Did I mention how much I like Depths? 00:29:48 bh: OK, I'll let grunt know. 00:30:12 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 00:30:13 <|amethyst> bh: :) 00:30:31 <|amethyst> bh: :) at your response that is, not at getting sassed 00:30:43 It's a great change of pace from the mindless mid-game cruising. "Oh, another Yaktaur." 00:31:12 <|amethyst> bh: oh, undo the demonic guardian thing 00:31:15 bh: What do you think of mantis 0007747 00:31:59 <|amethyst> bh: b325f119 ddc62b8f 00:35:02 weird. They didn't cleanly revert 00:35:27 |amethyst: do you mind if I revert them with a single commit? 00:37:10 <|amethyst> You can do it however you want; it doesn't *need* to be marked as a revert or anything, though it's not a bad idea 00:37:32 <|amethyst> You can just have two This reverts commit ... lines, though 00:38:05 |amethyst: I'm not keen on that unique, but I'm no tastemaker 00:38:26 <|amethyst> bh: gammafunk you mean 00:38:33 er, that guy 00:38:46 gammafunk: how about this for a unique: turns up in the abyss and sticks around when the abyss shifts 00:38:51 03bh02 07* 0.14-a0-959-g5852db9: Revert Oka's demonic guardian suppression. 10(4 minutes ago, 3 files, 0+ 20-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5852db96fc0a 00:39:31 bh: I guess that might need to be the case for any abyssal unique 00:39:34 isn't there already an abyssal unique? 00:39:41 no 00:39:43 teddy bear von hugsworth or something? 00:39:55 he got sent to the glue factory 00:40:33 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 00:41:15 I guess you could make an abyssal unique that tended to stay near the abyssal stairs 00:41:19 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-958-g08bf1ed 00:44:06 gammafunk: eh. Players will just walk away 00:44:31 yeah, only if it was always guarding the rune or something 00:44:33 would it work well 00:44:50 How about this: If you have an abyss-native unique, if it gets shifted off the screen it just gets respawned immediately until you change levels? 00:45:21 By respawned, do we mean in LOS? 00:45:48 Or just in the area, and capable of finding the player again 00:46:10 If the latter, it'd still be pretty easy to run from it, I suppose 00:46:51 <|amethyst> bh: make transdimensional abyssspider a normal monster instead of a unique 00:47:28 <|amethyst> bh: and give it that ability 00:49:19 in the area. Abyss monsters can spawn inside of LOS with some regularity. If you kept running it would eventually come into view 00:49:36 |amethyst: there's been some suggestion of adding MH_ELDRITCH, but I don't know what it would do 00:50:08 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50:11 always leaves a purple smoke cloud each move 00:52:40 03ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} 07* 0.14-a0-960-g89a6591: Don't require "ego:ice" to make missiles of frost. 10(24 hours ago, 3 files, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=89a65913d3f6 00:52:40 03ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} 07* 0.14-a0-961-g5954721: Fix typos, "Che" -> "Chei" 10(24 hours ago, 4 files, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5954721b74ec 00:52:53 never leaves a corpse, devoured by the abyss on death? 00:55:11 that respawn behaviour you mention sounds at least like a functional thing for a new holiness 00:55:36 eldritch monsters have a special synergy with the shifting abyss 00:56:10 name it NOTCTHULHU 00:56:21 gammafunk: wouldn't want to apply it to everything in the abyss. Otherwise the party would never stop 00:56:25 git didn't want to pull, citing conflicts in monspeak.txt (I edited it for the temple speech, then kilobyte changed the spacing). what's the best way to tell git to go ahead and use the version from the current master? 'git pull -s recursive -X theirs' did work, but feels like it might have been the wrong way. 00:56:59 also, abyss uniques should be able to shift between abyss floors 00:57:47 bh: Yeah, I suppose making all abyssal-specific monsters eldritch could be problematic 00:58:11 But it wouldn't be for anything not abyss-specific, save for a few random things like naga mages 00:58:17 rchandra: while it's an interesting idea, I think it would suck in practice. If we make them follow you, you'd end up with very limited escape options 00:58:30 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:58:48 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:59:00 yeah they probably shouldn't follow you. just something they could do sometimes 01:00:06 <|amethyst> rchandra: did that add a merge commit in your history? 01:01:14 yes, |amethyst. the one on top is now marked as by me "merge branch 'master' 01:02:23 <|amethyst> rchandra: this is all stuff you haven't pushed yet? 01:02:24 -!- taraiph has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 01:02:40 <|amethyst> haven't shared I mean 01:02:56 no the only thing I had changed has been shared and included 01:03:20 (and edited, causing the conflict. removed two spaces) 01:03:40 <|amethyst> ah, so you just want to go back to master 01:04:04 yeah. that command worked but from the docs looks like it was the wrong way to handle it. 01:04:08 <|amethyst> git reset --hard origin/master will reset your current branch and index to point at upstream master 01:04:38 <|amethyst> it did a merge and reverted your changes 01:04:55 <|amethyst> so you had the same file contents as master, but a different history 01:05:46 yes, my history includes the donald speech patch twice 01:05:54 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 01:05:55 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:06:48 <|amethyst> in the future you can try rebasing off master git rebase origin/master which will apply your changes on top of master 01:07:03 <|amethyst> I'm not sure, but that may skip the commit if it was already in master 01:07:17 <|amethyst> and if not, you just have to back out one commit (git reset --hard HEAD^) 01:07:56 thanks. hopefully sometime this will be useful, if I ever do a larger patch. 01:10:59 <|amethyst> hm, is there a way to git add -u the whole tree rather than the current directory? 01:11:35 -!- conted_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:12:20 possibly git add -u dir/ 01:13:24 <|amethyst> right, but I want to do this in a script 01:14:09 <|amethyst> what's the canonical way to find out what working tree you're in? I have a function to walk up the directory tree looking for .git but maybe there's a better way? 01:14:42 git status' first line is "on branch master", is that it? 01:14:49 you mean besides just 'git branch'? 01:14:51 <|amethyst> no, I mean 01:15:04 <|amethyst> I'm in ~/src/crawl/crawl-ref/source 01:15:14 <|amethyst> I want to get ~/src/crawl or at least ../../ 01:15:39 <|amethyst> the root of the working directory I am inside 01:18:18 <|amethyst> so that my shell function that does git add -u will add stuff in the docs directory even if I am in source 01:18:38 <|amethyst> I don't want to hard-code ../.. because that would be dumb 01:18:48 <|amethyst> but I also don't want to type it every time 01:19:09 what about hardcoding dir/src/crawl ? 01:19:39 <|amethyst> I'd rather this stuff work for other repositories as well 01:20:19 <|amethyst> I mean, I'm not fundamentally opposed to walking up the tree looking for a .git directory, but I'd rather not implement that in sh if git already has a way to get that info 01:20:52 <|amethyst> (since, even if git has to do the exact same thing, it's not written in shell) 01:27:00 <|amethyst> aha, got it 01:27:01 <|amethyst> crawl-ref/source 01:27:03 <|amethyst> err 01:27:10 <|amethyst> git rev-parse --show-toplevel 01:29:34 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 01:31:04 I feel like git should be its own shell so commands don't need to start with git 01:35:04 rchandra: You need to interact with an actual shell too much for that to work well 01:35:29 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:37:58 There should be a seperate channel for accessing learndb 01:38:40 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:05 Somefellow: You can pm Sequell to do that 01:39:28 Or if you mean seeing the messages, you can ignore them with a filter in your irc 01:39:50 Nah, just looking at ##crawl and seeing complete spam of learndb 01:40:05 there's a purge occurring now, which unfortunately (but necessarily) can't be done privately 01:41:06 Yeah LearnDB is kinda retarded 01:41:19 ??0 01:41:19 0[1/4]: 0 01:41:24 ^ 01:44:52 -!- eb has quit [] 01:48:10 -!- SwissStopwatch has joined ##crawl-dev 01:49:13 -!- evablue has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:56:15 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:56:41 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:45 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:18 -!- Hailley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:06:37 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:13:56 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:07 -!- ChaseSP has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:14:16 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:01 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:22:42 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:33 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:23:44 -!- inspector071 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:01 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:44:41 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:53:40 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 02:59:24 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59:59 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:05:02 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:12:31 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:13:12 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:21:55 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:31:11 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 03:31:53 Someone actually asked who dpeg is 03:37:52 Giomancer: that person was unserious 03:38:22 I couldn't tell. 03:38:30 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:38:38 I hope so. :p 03:39:35 you must be strong now. there are billions of people on this planet that don't know dpeg and trillions in the unknown universe 03:40:19 in that case... my planet needs me. 03:40:23 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 03:41:46 bhaak: Tha's their problem for not playing crawl 03:42:17 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:47:33 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:51:57 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 03:54:13 -!- nonethousand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:58:51 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:09:40 -!- flowsnake_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:10:58 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:03 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:14:34 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:53 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:22:20 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:23:51 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:24:52 -!- Ashyr has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:29:39 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:09:32 -!- Voker57 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:56 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:37:55 03kilobyte02 07[wood] * 0.14-a0-955-g2331b06: Rename potions of wood to that of lignification. 10(15 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2331b06dedaf 05:37:55 03kilobyte02 07[wood] * 0.14-a0-956-g88b8fad: Drop the tree form slowdown at low levels as well. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=88b8fadeb800 05:42:56 -!- jeffrom has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:55 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:47:05 -!- jeffrom has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:51:57 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:06:50 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:31 -!- MP2E has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:19:07 -!- raskol_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:19:40 -!- Ashyr has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:21:58 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:00 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:23:16 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:23:51 -!- daek_ is now known as Daekdroom 06:24:26 -!- Voker57 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:24:47 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:26:19 -!- Voker57 has quit [Excess Flood] 06:33:59 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:37:28 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:51:16 mopl (L2 DEWz) (D:2) 06:51:30 -!- nonethousand has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:44 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:55:15 -!- ldf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:55:25 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:02:18 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:22:39 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:22:48 Cheers 07:22:48 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:22:52 !messages 07:22:52 (1/1) Grunt said (1d 8h 58m 9s ago): http://sprunge.us/AWGQ 07:23:16 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:24:19 !seen Grunt 07:24:19 I last saw Grunt at Wed Nov 20 05:38:36 2013 UTC (7h 45m 43s ago) saying 'minqmay: You shout wildly!' on ##crawl. 07:24:21 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:28:39 !tell Grunt Looks good to me! I wondered if we could squeeze in some more flavour, but the Edda doesn't give too much away. And Crawl has no Mjollnir :) 07:28:40 dpeg: OK, I'll let grunt know. 07:35:33 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:39:02 -!- Tarquinn has quit [Quit: yes] 07:39:49 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:40:30 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:42:50 dpeg: rElec-? :b 07:42:55 -!- Ratgina has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:43:23 (off to work soon, just poking my nose in briefly) 07:47:23 we could always add it 07:47:45 returning elec hammer! 07:50:00 -!- TZer0 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:51:26 -!- TZer0 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:02 -!- Rebenga has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:14 kilobyte: What do you think of an unrandard Mjollnir, returning +12 hammer (elec) ? 08:00:15 -!- johlstei__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:01:23 a returning lightning hammer named Mjollnir, that's so nethack 08:05:32 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05:33 dpeg, weren't weapons that are both melee and throwing removed? 08:06:32 would be a special case, yes --> hence the question to kilobyte 08:06:36 hah, good point 08:06:57 it would require bringing back all the removed code 08:06:57 bhaak: we're pilfering the carcass of Nethack since ten years! 08:07:09 kilobyte: ok, consider the case closed then :) 08:08:00 could just be evokable to kill dudes at range using throwing skill 08:08:25 might be too direct a copy, though: no god or item in Crawl is taken directly from some source 08:08:26 Actually, I came here for something else. Discussion about Cheibriados with elliptic produced a proposal: taking on Chei gives you * piety (a la Lugonu) so that in addition to the handicap which starts right away, you get your first power. This should be a minor buff -- any objections? 08:08:50 alefury: or zapping a lightning bolt 08:08:58 kilobyte: true. I'm still a bit sad that Lehudib's crystal spear is gone. Such a beauty :( 08:09:03 <|amethyst> worshipping lugonu gives you * for free? 08:09:04 dpeg: Leichenfledderer, allesamt! 08:09:12 <|amethyst> I thought that was only AKs 08:09:14 bhaak: und stolz darauf! 08:09:26 |amethyst: anyone 08:09:36 If you take on Lugonu, you get * so that you can depart the Abyss right away. 08:09:36 <|amethyst> ah 08:09:41 Temptation needs power. 08:10:02 could make bend time usable from 0* instead of giving the free piety maybe 08:10:08 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:10:09 wait, doesn't taking on Chei give you +1 str +1 dex +1 int instantly already? 08:10:20 MarvinPA: or that -- if you prefer, I'd do that. 08:10:28 kilobyte: no, I don't think so. 08:10:35 -!- shmup_ is now known as shmup 08:10:58 kilobyte: which would be a nice gesture (not that it'd matter much) 08:11:12 <|amethyst> kilobyte, dpeg: it does give you the +1/+1/+1 at 1 piety 08:11:17 just checked: it does 08:11:56 <|amethyst> and you have a move delay of 1.2 at 0 piety 08:11:58 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:12:00 <|amethyst> err, at 1 piety 08:12:15 <|amethyst> but you don't have any powers 08:12:34 <|amethyst> and +1/+1/+1 probably isn't very noticeable 08:13:30 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:16:52 oh, sorry kilobyte 08:17:02 but it'd still be good to have a power early on 08:17:16 either via bonus piety or giving Bend Time at 0* 08:18:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:54 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:31 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:25:38 -!- Octorok has quit [Client Quit] 08:30:25 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:32:11 I'm not saying no 08:33:59 <|amethyst> but then what about * ? 08:34:12 <|amethyst> the only gain from 0* to 1* would be an additional +1/+1/+1 08:35:14 alright, let's just hand out BT at 0 piety 08:36:28 -!- hurdos has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:40:42 mm chei's ability enums are backwards, that always catches me out 08:40:59 TIME_BEND and TIME_STEP when the abilities are bend time and step from time :( 08:41:19 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-962-gbce0512: Make Chei's Bend Time available from 0* piety 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 14+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bce0512081e8 08:43:00 MarvinPA: thank you 08:44:24 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Heading to bed.] 08:46:14 There was another idea for Chei: to make hell effects kick in more slowly, but that's much less important than the early game 08:50:11 -!- TwistedSage has quit [Quit: TwistedSage] 09:04:20 -!- radinms has quit [] 09:05:28 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:49 -!- raskol_ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:10:15 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:01 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 09:18:02 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:41 -!- Voker57 has quit [] 09:39:47 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:42:03 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:42:20 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:44:40 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:00 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:45:00 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 09:45:13 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Quit: Excess flood] 09:51:35 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:58:21 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:13 hey kilobye, i think in your "wood" branch, you should remove one of the bad potions. that way the wood potion (which can be bad at the wrong moment) replaces one of the boring, always-useless ones 09:59:30 its a ncie long term goal to eventually get rid of those in favour of something that's at least usable 09:59:50 oh, evilmike 09:59:55 Hi! 10:00:02 hello 10:05:25 -!- johnny0 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:07:30 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:07:51 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:14:18 -!- inspector071 has quit [Quit: inspector071] 10:18:35 evilmike: as in, paralysis, confusion, etc? 10:18:42 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:08 yeah. i think the excuse for keeping those mostly went away when evaporate was removed 10:20:12 I'm not certain the wooden potion is a good idea, but at least can give us some splats as players get lured by extra fighting power. 10:20:42 i just think "questionably useful" items are way better than always-bad ones 10:21:28 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:43 evilmike: true 10:21:46 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:22 <|amethyst> make potion of decay give you lich form temporarily 10:22:39 <|amethyst> (plus rot) 10:22:51 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22:53 kilobyte: I like "lignification" btw 10:22:59 the word? 10:23:01 at least decay is instantly bad and doesn't make you rest off anything 10:23:01 yes 10:23:18 it feels extremely clumsy to me, with its only grace being not evoking sexual jokes 10:23:37 kilobyte: but nobody will understand it ==> many bonus points! 10:23:42 heh 10:24:04 "potion of lignify" is a bit less correct but shorter 10:24:48 or, to confuse D&D players, "barkskin" :p 10:24:52 (potion of leaving? sadly only funny once) 10:26:31 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:26:35 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 10:27:17 geekosaur: I don't understand it at first time even :) 10:27:25 * kilobyte ponders |amethyst's idea of having decay grant lich form. On one hand, it's interesting. On the other, adding two "transform into form" potions seems weird. 10:27:31 dpeg: it's about leaves 10:27:33 pun. lea[fv]ing 10:27:48 geekosaur: lead{f,ving} 10:27:54 s/d// 10:28:06 leafing, leaving 10:29:19 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:49 evilmike: bad potions: poison, slowing, paralysis, confusion, degeneration, decay, strong poison 10:29:51 kilobyte: what's so bad about it? The idea that potions transmute the drinker is one of the core concepts of alchemy, no? 10:29:55 meh potions: berserk 10:30:03 i like potions of berserk 10:30:05 berserk is a good one 10:30:06 (mutation is at least tempting sometimes) 10:30:58 don't need to invent double-edge uses for all of them... if we start with one or two, more ideas will inevitably follow 10:31:19 potions of berserk do the same as amulet of rage except for also acting as a loadstone and forcing inventory management 10:31:45 weak poison just shouldnt exist, a way to get rid of that one would be to just combine it with strong poison and increase its weight 10:31:57 in terms of generation, not in terms of mass 10:32:28 you mean, you'd want lots of potions of strong poison? 10:33:09 i'd rather have none, but its less of a balance issue than increasing the weight of all the good potions 10:33:29 potion of berserk is nothing like the amulet of rage, amulet has a low success rate unless you get high evoc skill, and even then it takes longer to put it on and activate than it does to use a potion 10:35:42 -!- SkaryMonk2 has left ##crawl-dev 10:36:48 kilobyte, I think either that means potions of medium poison, or a single potion of poison that somewhat randomly (although perhaps weighted toward the low end especially at small absdepth?) gives medium or strong poison 10:37:20 berserk isn't what you want to do in emergencies though... Trog and the amulet allow using it before an emergency arises, an one-time potion causes more hassle than it's worth 10:37:32 of course, on D:2 you may want it to kill that ogre 10:38:21 so of the list of bad potions, you'd want to kill of regular poison first, right? 10:38:27 kilobyte: potion of berserk has potential uses ==> can lead to player mistakes, so we are happy with it 10:38:40 well, I think weak poison and slowing are the most useless of the bad potions 10:38:53 they CAN cause problems but I think 99% of cases are just "rest it off" 10:39:03 yes 10:39:10 formicids :p 10:39:12 this means that they are completely irrelevant 10:39:21 <|amethyst> evilmike: or "quaffed unknown potions hoping for healing, got poison instead" 10:39:57 this is the main reason for keeping bad potions 10:39:58 id game needs thought as well but let's not try everything at once :) 10:40:07 |amethyst: well, in that case, you're probably dead if you quaffed might or benefitial mutation or whatever 10:40:08 kilobyte: sure! 10:40:34 of the two: regular poison and strong poison, I'd rather remove strong, as it spawns too late to be relevant 10:40:47 well whatever, just get rid of both then 10:41:04 VM nerf!!!1! 10:41:23 i dislike all of those potions, it's just, I don't care if they're slowly removed over time, eventually all of them will be gone :P 10:41:34 in the process of merging crawl light, getting rid of the id game is tempting 10:41:42 evilmike: do you think there's scope for an id game in Crawl? 10:41:46 removing all of them at once just seems like it could make the good potions too common, and its more fun to replace bad potions with weird/questionable ones 10:41:54 <|amethyst> dpeg: then we can give artificers one recharge scroll and get rid of the "knowing something you don't start with" perk altogether 10:42:56 evilmike: I don't get the point of "slowly" removing them. If they should go, I'd remove them all rather than pussyfoot around. Or keep them all, at least more interesting ones. 10:43:15 <|amethyst> kilobyte: slowly replacing, not removing 10:43:16 I think that the early game becomes more interesting from having to find your way through the items, but that may be because I am old and played too much Nethack :) 10:43:20 or replace bad effects with bad effects that are more interesting during that D:3 panic chugging 10:43:30 dpeg: i think the id game for potions and scrolls is fine and mostly works well. for everything else I dont know or care all that much 10:43:31 kilobyte: yes! 10:43:35 <|amethyst> kilobyte: and replacing everything in one go requires more content 10:43:39 |amethyst: but why? What's the reason to do it slowly? 10:43:56 kilobyte: hard to come up with ideas 10:43:58 can just remove, and think about eventual replacements later 10:44:00 <|amethyst> kilobyte: because it takes time to make new more-interesting questionable potions 10:44:09 <|amethyst> kilobyte: and weights? 10:44:20 they don't need to sum to some magic number 10:44:42 so we have kilobyte's new woody potion to take one bad potion, and |amethyst's decay proposal. Two down! 10:45:10 <|amethyst> kilobyte: as evilmike mentioned, the issue is that you'd be greatly increasing the number of good potions 10:45:46 kilobyte: if we just remove all the bad potions, then we're agreeing that we'll look into this at some later point. Which may or may not happen. If we just replace the bad potions for which we actually have replacements, then we don't place any burden on us. 10:45:57 canister of antimatter, AKA potion of game over 10:46:09 <|amethyst> kilobyte: (which is fine if you also take the number of potions down accordingly) 10:46:10 does angband still have potions of instant death? :P 10:46:28 i think they spawned too deep to actually be dangerous (could id them easily enough by then) but still 10:47:18 <|amethyst> Hm... slowing could be something to give you "petrifying" status that never actually turns into "petrified" 10:47:28 <|amethyst> s/be/become/ 10:47:50 <|amethyst> potion of grotesk 10:48:02 <|amethyst> (minus the not being able to do anything at the end) 10:48:14 kilobyte: you yourself said that the presence of bad potions affects behaviour in emergencies... I think that's very good 10:49:14 <|amethyst> potion of confusion could be ambrosia 10:49:37 <|amethyst> (or a weaker version thereof) 10:49:58 hey, |amethyst has enough ideas, it turns out 10:50:02 even petrification has some upside (more AC)... although yeh, the grotesk thing suggests not enough 10:50:21 only the presence of unid-d bad potions 10:50:42 but for those of us who id potions when it's safe, they're just momentary annoyances 10:52:01 <|amethyst> no idea what to do with poison, paralysis (other than merge with slowing), or degeneration 10:52:19 -!- Nstar has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:53:11 |amethyst: do you know Brogue's paralysis? 10:53:16 <|amethyst> no 10:53:26 It is an area effect. 10:53:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:41 the purpose of bad potions in brogue is to throw them 10:53:59 <|amethyst> I don't think area-effect potions make sense in crawl 10:54:04 <|amethyst> should be scrolls instead 10:54:13 -!- dtsund has quit [Client Quit] 10:54:17 <|amethyst> maybe some scrolls should be potions 10:54:22 i remember suggesting it before, and the consensus was its a bad idea to have potions like that 10:54:28 <|amethyst> amnesia for example 10:55:34 my ideal split would get rid of potions and scrolls and divide consumibles into strategical ones and tactical ones, the former being immune to item destruction 10:55:37 * kilobyte has an idea of a potion that replaces fog + noise, but let's not go that low. 10:56:00 evilmike: a potion of teleportation? 10:56:03 <|amethyst> fog + noise sounds interesting 10:56:17 well, it wouldn't be a potion :P 10:56:48 evilmike: yes, such a split would make so much gameplay sense. If there was any thematic way to do it... 10:56:59 just come up with magical sounding terms 10:57:05 glyphs, totems, crystals, whatever 10:57:08 a potion of teleportation would make sense 10:57:29 yes 10:57:44 -!- dondy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:32 <|amethyst> evilmike: wouldn't have to remove the split for tactical items 10:59:04 <|amethyst> evilmike: though I guess it might be better, anyway, to avoid increasing the number of object classes too much 10:59:06 |amethyst: i'd rather only have 2 categories because it makes identification trickier. the smaller the pool of items is, the easier it is to guess what an item does 10:59:09 yeah 10:59:49 not sure if item destruction is a good thing after all 11:00:14 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:00:20 bh's "destruction" branch is interesting: denial but not removal (as that just promotes stashing) 11:01:20 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:30 there were issues with it, that have been brought up elsewhere. the main thing is, the branch does two entirely different things. it removes item destruction (ok), and it adds a separate game mechanic with questionable effects 11:01:34 kilobyte: call it "disabling" but I think it is good if some situations restrict a players toolkit (in a very broad sense: I am also thinking of spells and gods) 11:03:35 evilmike: I'd rather call that "replacement" rather than two different things. I do agree that the new mechanic is quite iffy. 11:11:39 -!- Burer has quit [Quit: Держи гранату, баклан!] 11:12:25 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-962-gbce0512 (34) 11:12:47 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:45 kilobyte: the new mechanic doesn't serve anything close to the same function as the old mechanic 11:17:09 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: time to go] 11:17:14 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:20:16 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:21:33 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 11:22:36 -!- Wahaha has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22:45 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 24.0/20130918041159]] 11:24:44 -!- Wahaha has left ##crawl-dev 11:29:37 potion of rejuvenation: cures rot, gives heavy skill drain 11:30:34 we already have two potions that cure rot 11:30:52 no need for a third one, and one that only has that very narrow use 11:31:20 m'kay 11:32:32 * kilobyte was thinking more about nasty but not fatal stuff for those who quaff-id or panic-quaff, but I'm not going to argue. 11:32:43 the bad side of it isn't a bad idea, yes 11:33:01 but we can probably do better for the good side 11:35:05 that might be a decent drawback if we wanted a potion of lichform, for instance (I'm not sure we do though) 11:35:17 -!- jeffrom has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:13 -!- jeffrom has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:42:57 * kilobyte still thinks about permanent necromutation. Would be far less tedious for those who use it, while giving a strong downside (that in turn could warrant some buffs if needed). 11:43:12 which stands in opposition to potions of lichform 11:43:18 potion of mitosis, it causes you to painfully divide in half (causing drain status), but you get a friendly clone ally 11:43:29 <3 11:43:30 the drain represents lost "essence" or whatever that went into the clone 11:43:53 -!- kunwon1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:45:29 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:47:27 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:48:13 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:51:05 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:39 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:18 kilobyte: the main issue I have with permanent necromutation is that you'd only cast the spell once in a game, so it would get cast a lot of the time at relatively low skills with the aid of a potion of brilliance 11:52:41 if you have an idea for addressing that sort of thing, that would be cool 11:54:01 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:16 (the problem isn't just that it would be easier to get, since making it L9 would help with that, but also that knowing when brilliance will make it castable is annoying without wizmode testing) 11:54:54 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:02:06 obviously, brilliance shouldn't help 12:02:33 my idea would be to call it a "ritual" rather than a spell, which allows some special mechanics 12:04:15 would it still appear in the necronomicon alongside non-rituals? 12:04:40 probably, yeah 12:04:44 I assume it also wouldn't use spell slots 12:04:48 or possibly in a book of its own 12:04:49 -!- everett has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131028112629]] 12:04:57 or alternatively would be un-amnesia-able 12:05:10 one idea would be to allow potion use via casting the spell 12:06:00 so it's harder (needs mp, can't go through confusion) but won't require a new mechanism for curing rot, etc 12:06:08 eh, I'd rather have it actually be permanent 12:06:14 for curing rot, wand of heal wounds already does it 12:06:23 or you can just live with 10 points of rot 12:07:34 <|amethyst> BTW, is IOOD the only hardbook spell that isn't unique to hardbooks? 12:08:34 Mimic Exclusions Refer to Dead Mimics by raskol 12:09:25 |amethyst: I think so 12:10:28 <|amethyst> yeah, looks like it 12:10:55 -!- orionstein has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 12:11:17 <|amethyst> I was thinking about removing it from Annihilations; would that reduce its frequency too much? 12:11:52 no, it will still be plenty common because it is in book of power 12:13:24 -!- ark_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:29 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 12:20:48 i strongly am against perma-necromutation because it would be a high level spell that makes most of tmut and necro useless to you. even if it was only single school that's bad 12:21:09 i dont see it as being a real lich anyway, it's a magical transformation. a mockery of real lich-hood 12:21:40 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:21:53 evilmike: well, that is one of the prices you pay for using it... it's not like you are forced to use it 12:22:13 yeah but right now the spell is at least useful for temporary torment immunity, or a couple other niche things 12:22:32 the permanent version would be really hard to find a good use for 12:23:20 "hard to find..."? You mean, a long list of immunities, which includes torment that is one of two real late game threats? 12:23:32 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:23:36 it could be improved in various ways if necessary, too... it's not like the spell's effects have to remain exactly as they are now 12:23:44 and that, too 12:24:30 current necromutation is not something that would be a no-brainer or even outright good to permanentize... but even that would not be a bad idea 12:24:40 the lack of potion use and high level necro spells sucks 12:24:54 being able to heal yourself quickly, or become invisible is better than being a lich 12:25:05 evilmike: you aren't lacking high level necro spells, you are permanently using one :P 12:25:07 invincible* 12:25:17 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:21 -!- Amilir has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:25:27 meh. it's the one high level necro spell I don't want to use permanently. give me perma ddoor instead! 12:25:28 yeh, a lot of players seem to think lichform's actually fairly useless 12:26:10 evilmike: or perma borg? :P 12:26:33 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:26:44 <|amethyst> !tell |amethyst make the webtiles config support multiple bind addresses 12:26:45 |amethyst: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 12:26:45 note that I'm only arguing against the spell being permanent anyway. i've said elsewhere, if its some kind of final god gift or item-based thing, its probably fine 12:26:53 although it does mean tmut loses yet another spell 12:28:18 note that necromutation doesn't actually block all of necromancy... it blocks many of the best spells, certainly, but there are others that it actually boosts (because you get an enhancer and sickness immunity and such) 12:28:43 e.g. dispel undead, haunt 12:29:54 and how many characters that use necromutation currently actually swap it with another form regularly anyway? 12:29:59 it boosts dispel undead in two ways! :p 12:30:10 kilobyte: ability to use it on yourself? 12:30:25 elliptic: I meant boosting monster's use of it 12:30:25 (I forget whether the game lets you do this) 12:30:30 yeah, I know :P 12:30:52 could make it Necr 9, dropping the now-useless Tmut component 12:31:44 well, I've played mummies that went for high level necromancy. The dispel undead boost can be nice. haunt... well, it's haunt, the power boost is nice but it's great even at lower power 12:31:46 evilmike: I sort of agree though that it might be better as a god thing or as a (very rare) item or something than to do this ritual stuff 12:31:56 there's also agony, which is nice for mummies, but not so much for lichform 12:32:13 since the latter tends to be when not many enemies are hurt by it 12:33:41 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:34:31 i've actually gone between blade hands and necromutation on a character, I think I used the latter for tomb mostly 12:34:45 so you'd want to have it as an item without skill requirements? 12:35:03 maybe it could be evoc based or require ****** yred 12:35:42 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:36:01 yred is not a spellcasting god and would require quite degenerate tactics on most builds 12:36:29 while training a skill very high even if you don't have an other use is something anyone can do 12:36:49 (and necromancy is pretty far from being an one-trick pony) 12:37:40 03kilobyte02 07[wood] * 0.14-a0-957-gfd8a13e: Drop a no longer true comment. 10(16 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd8a13e96d2d 12:37:40 03kilobyte02 07[wood] * 0.14-a0-958-g27e6458: Generate potions of wood^Wlignification instead of slowing. 10(11 minutes ago, 3 files, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=27e6458ec466 12:37:40 03kilobyte02 07[wood] * 0.14-a0-959-gad4f757: De-woodify the enum. 10(4 minutes ago, 6 files, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ad4f7579b71f 12:37:42 I was just thinking a single-use misc item that has a chance (possibly depending on necro skill or evo skill or both) of turning you into a permalich when used 12:41:51 -!- jeffrom has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:19 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:53 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:52:26 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:59 the fuck? 12:53:01 wood? 12:53:21 <|amethyst> alefury: a potion that turns you into tree form 12:53:22 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:53:40 <|amethyst> alefury: as a not-entirely-bad replacement for !slowing 12:53:49 cool! 12:54:06 <|amethyst> (it's just a branch right now, no pun intended) 12:54:39 sounds like an excellent idea 12:55:33 any news on vaultslock? 12:55:47 <|amethyst> I think pretty much everyone is in favor of it 12:56:01 <|amethyst> or at least I don't recall hearing any major objections 12:56:12 cool 12:56:26 <|amethyst> so it just needs an implementor (and testing, save compat, etc) 12:57:03 it actually sounds pretty trivial 12:57:19 i dont see why save compat would be a problem, for example 12:57:39 as long as people can still leave without a rune 12:58:06 I forget whether there are save compat issues with moving a branch entrance from one branch to another 12:58:22 oh, there are 12:58:52 I know you can change the range of levels in a single branch that a branch entrance can generate on without trouble 12:58:59 there may be no vaults if D is generated but Dephts is not 12:59:04 right? 13:00:57 maybe, I forget how that works... I think it chooses entrance levels for all branches at game start though? 13:01:30 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 13:02:21 i totally forgot about the moving part 13:02:33 %git bf8e822 13:02:33 Could not find commit bf8e822 (git returned 128) 13:02:35 switching the lock from depths to vaults should be trivial, moving the entrance i have no idea 13:02:45 er 13:02:51 %git 2e102cb6c6 13:02:51 07elliptic02 * 0.11-a0-2004-g2e102cb: Move the Swamp entrance to the same depth range as the other non-Slime Lair branches. 10(1 year, 6 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2e102cb6c63b 13:03:12 all I know is that I'm pretty sure that didn't cause any trouble :) 13:03:46 completely unrelated: any news on getting rid of the demonic rune? 13:03:47 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:20 i believe branch entries are picked on game init, so moving something up or down a few levels shouldnt break anything as far as i know 13:05:10 how do branch mimics work? 13:05:45 evilmike: right, the only question is about moving an entrance from Depths to D... I'd hope that transferred saves would still have the entrance in Depths (which would be fine in this case), but I don't actually know 13:05:49 do they spawn on the wrong level, or can they replace the real entry and make it generate somewhere else? 13:06:11 i suppose the worst that might happen is, transferred saves would still have V generate in depths 13:06:23 just a guess 13:07:25 they will unless you take special steps 13:07:39 * Grunt looks in. 13:08:24 Games started before Vaults moved to Depths (now) place V correctly, so the opposite should work fine too! 13:09:31 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:31 so it that case it does sound fairly easy to implement, probably just be a matter of changing branch-data.h and adjusting the runelock code to apply to vaults instead of depths? 13:12:21 should work without any extra effort, yes 13:13:50 Yes. 13:14:06 Q: whst will the entry range be? 13:14:10 *what 13:15:04 just D:16, right? 13:15:15 the idea was to have it earlier than Depths entrance, so no 13:15:21 * kilobyte is fixing the ^O display for moves. 13:15:29 D:14-15 if we don't want to change Lair entrance I guess 13:15:36 sounds ok 13:15:50 So vaults is on d:14-15, but requires a rune to enter? 13:16:06 * Grunt disappears for now. 13:16:53 gammafunk: yeah, and depths does not require a rune (but is scary) 13:18:08 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-963-g283eb99: Don't claim that Vaults spawn on D:2-6. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=283eb99bda8b 13:18:18 i'd say just let it spawn on any level post-lair 13:18:48 evilmike: some of the entrance vaults for V are very nasty 13:18:54 if lair is moved the only thing i'd change is blocking d:13, I still say centaur warriors are scary on that level 13:19:11 oh right, the ones that can get titans and crap like that 13:19:20 or do you mean any level post-D:13? I'm confused 13:19:21 bug: DNGN_RETURN_FROM_VAULTS shows up as "staircase back to the Dungeon" 13:19:28 * kilobyte fixes it to be no longer a bug. 13:19:29 err yeah I meant post-d:13 sorry 13:19:38 by post lair I mean, after the deepest lair can go 13:20:17 aren't most of them harder than depths entrance vaults? 13:20:21 well, that's what my D:14-15 suggestion was... I think allowing it to be on the last level is a bad idea, since part of the motivation for the change is to make it clear that vaults comes before depths 13:20:45 sounds good 13:21:03 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:21:12 then what about Orc? 13:21:27 kilobyte: move it to D:8-13 like lair? 13:21:55 possibly making some of their entry vaults stand-alone to be less boring 13:22:09 right 13:23:26 evilmike: if you were suggesting changing lair to D:8-12 earlier, I could definitely support that... it really doesn't need a 6-level range and it would give more space between L entry and the end of D 13:24:40 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 13:24:48 (still trying to figure out what the centaur warrior comment meant) 13:25:00 I think a narrower rhange would be good yes. I think it's too wide right now, the difference between early lair and late lair feels huge. I think if you clear it early, it also makes that early-middle part of D a bit too boring 13:25:10 ah, on d:13, centaur warriors suddenly jump up as the #1 killer 13:25:28 and whenever I get d:13 lair it seems I keep running into them :P 13:25:44 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:26:59 yeah, close to 4 times as many centaur warrior deaths on D:13 as on D:12 in recent games 13:27:17 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:28:34 anyway I could see something like L/0 = 8-12, V = 13-15, Depths = 16 working well at some point... but for now with the V change I'd just put it on 14-15, and L/O/V entrance ranges and entry vaults can be adjusted separately 13:29:23 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-964-gad36ceb: Move the Vaults entrance to D:14-15. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ad36ceb063ee 13:29:23 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-965-ga976ef1: Move the rune lock to Vaults rather than Depths. 10(60 seconds ago, 5 files, 10+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a976ef1a132d 13:29:26 'ere you go 13:29:27 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 13:29:47 yay 13:29:58 or even L = 8-11 or perhaps even -10 13:30:15 I think 8-10 might be too small a range 13:30:46 4 levels is sort of a nice amount I think, we currently have that size a range for temple and for non-slime lair subbranches 13:31:14 if we want to push the "O harder than L" thing, we could have L = 8-11 and O = 9-12 or something 13:31:34 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-966-g0df4145: Limit the Lair entrance to D:8-11. 10(59 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0df41456e286 13:31:39 What happens if you saved a game just after entering D:16? Will there be a Vaults entrance anywhere? 13:31:54 CKyle: it will be in depths 13:31:54 CKyle: yes, in Depths 13:32:23 entry depths are assigned when the game starts 13:32:37 ah 13:32:55 kilobyte: Does the depths entrance still use the runelock vaults? At least one of those is vaults themed 13:34:35 yeah, but the Depths entrance was never in Vaults in the first place 13:35:01 No, but they were made back when Vaults was in the depths 13:35:13 they're all pretty throw-away anyhow 13:35:32 should I throw away that vault then? 13:35:33 maybe some of the vaults entries could be turned into depths entries 13:35:53 But one of mine used e.g. convoker and sentinel, and one of grunt's has a vault gaurd 13:36:02 -!- Ashyr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:17 kilobyte: yeah, feel free to throw that one into the depths of /dev/null 13:36:18 well, vault guard is pretty generic really 13:36:34 the convoker/sentinel one probably shouldn't be there though, yes 13:37:28 I guess the depths entrance vaults can be a bit harder now 13:37:30 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:04 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-967-g9995aa1: Push the "O harder than L" thing. 10(89 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9995aa19606a 13:39:04 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-968-g2d28b49: Give a nazi medal to /dev/null. 10(67 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 24-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2d28b4919d01 13:39:40 kilobyte: my mother would be so proud that I've won an award <3 13:39:43 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:39:58 :p 13:42:44 -!- Ashyr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:58 why are potions of blood not identified when vampires drop them? 13:48:04 it seems like a silly spoilery thing 13:48:17 same as axes/swords on temperature giants 13:48:45 because it's so obvious, you mean? 13:49:35 well, for vampires they could drop no blood and happen to have been carrying a non-blood potion 13:50:10 at the very least we should do something about the bit where a couple of potions have nearly-fixed unIDed descriptions, though 13:50:37 elliptic: too late, already pushed 13:50:47 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-969-g9bdcb06: Pre-identify the blood potion held by monster vampires. 10(42 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9bdcb065fcbe 13:51:17 I sort of wonder whether we should just auto-identify all blood potions on sight 13:51:21 i feel like a lot of food vaults should pre-id the porridge in them but that's questionable i guess 13:51:26 you can wait for them to decay to identify them anyway 13:53:06 blood and porridge, yeah 13:53:10 I'd certainly prefer auto-IDing all porridge and blood to the weird spoily thing we have currently where porridge has just two possible descriptions and blood has three 13:53:39 temperature giants: pre-ided as +0,+0 or a chance for some enchantment? 13:54:00 giving them the normal chance for some enchantment seems better to me 13:54:10 I never understood why they were fixed at +0,+0 13:54:54 Speaking of enchantments. 13:55:16 Why is orc gear special cased to have less brands? 13:55:44 probably because there are 132480909 orcs and they only had so much branded stuff to distribute between them :P 13:56:01 (is it actually special-cased? I didn't know that) 13:56:26 ??Orcish_items[2] 13:56:26 orcish items[2/2]: A randomly generated orcish weapon will be -1 to hit, on a coinflip, and +1 to damage, on another coinflip. Orcish weapons have a 50% chance of having their ego removed, if they tried to generate with one. 13:57:13 -!- varox has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:59:18 it seems to be ancient 14:01:12 %git 3f69a6bff 14:01:12 07haranp02 * r3f69a6bffb46: Massive rewrite of makeitem.cc. Might be buggy. Fixed some old bugs, e.g. double reroll of =oCT. items() now respects force_type more often. As a side effect, acquirement is less likely to give randart jewellery or armour. 10(6 years ago, 5 files, 1676+ 1824-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3f69a6bffb46 14:01:21 the orcish weapon thing was already present then 14:02:10 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-970-gcc527f1: Allow temperature giants to have items not at +0,+0. 10(82 seconds ago, 1 file, 5+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cc527f1a8463 14:03:11 Well you're gonna be in some huge trouble in lair and especially swamp if you went swords/axes nowadays. 14:03:32 what 14:04:15 then again 14:04:16 nevermind 14:04:58 This is not really on-topic, but for monsters is the weapon damage simply additive to their primary attack damage? 14:05:03 well, why? Orcies can get brands, they're just less likely to get them. 14:05:09 gammafunk: yes 14:05:15 thought so 14:06:23 -!- jeffrom is now known as jeffro 14:06:33 -!- jeffro has quit [Changing host] 14:06:33 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 14:09:17 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:39 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 14:11:15 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:38 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:53 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-971-g1111ebd: Make potions of blood and porridge always identified. 10(83 seconds ago, 2 files, 3+ 52-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1111ebd27a40 14:25:16 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:26:38 -!- valtern has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:27:40 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 14:27:51 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:06 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:19 change around vaults and depths entrances, you say 14:41:02 tenofswords: as of this moment, Vaults are on D:14-15, Depths on D:16, but this keeps changing every few days 14:41:28 this particular change sounds like it'll stick 14:41:45 * kilobyte hates the rune lock. 14:42:35 well argued 14:45:24 can the human monster just be made always HD:7 so I don't feel terrible trying to work with it 14:50:10 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51:01 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 14:52:28 -!- Tedronai has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:53:49 -!- G-Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:58:55 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 14:59:42 like, there's no reason for monster human/elf/(draconian?) to have huge hd variability except 1: randomize a non-threatening monster 2: hide what hd a shapeshifter could be (which barely exists anymore do to not favouring such genus monsters so heavily) 15:04:05 -!- jeffro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:51 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 15:05:51 -!- jeffro has quit [Changing host] 15:05:51 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:34 -!- Burer has quit [Changing host] 15:19:29 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 15:22:43 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:15 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:40 if you mutate a slot while beastly appendage is giving you that slot, when it wears off it says "Your foo disappear." even though they already did 15:27:49 -!- Ashyr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:19 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:29:45 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:30:53 -!- myrmidette_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:38:06 wheals: Not sure I understand what you mean, but it would help to make a bug report 15:38:07 -!- inspector071 has quit [Quit: inspector071] 15:38:23 ok, i will 15:40:23 ok, see |amethyst's comment in https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5679 15:40:38 the bogus message is what i'm talking about, it's still there 15:43:12 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:33 Drakes are not vulnerable to dragon slaying by CommanderC 15:46:57 tisk 15:47:07 -!- inspector071 has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:20 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:24 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:52:39 -!- Wah has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:45 -!- CeleryMan has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:32 -!- ophanim has quit [Quit: ophanim] 15:54:34 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 15:58:51 -!- dondy is now known as dondy|afk 15:59:17 -!- Translocation has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:01:52 given the change to make summons abjure upon death of the summoner, any chance revenant summons can be made to poof? 16:02:41 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:35 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:50 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:13 -!- evilmike has quit [] 16:08:21 it does pass the agent, so yeah 16:09:57 yes thats one thing i dislike about revenants right now 16:11:15 i really do like the summoner change btw. it encourages you to not just run and press 5 so you can redo the fight, its rather fun fighting something that summoned an ice fiend in the mix, or having to use wands/misc to kill a summoner in the back of dudes 16:11:22 -!- Brokkr is now known as e 16:11:35 -!- e is now known as n 16:11:45 -!- n is now known as y 16:11:52 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:11:56 -!- y is now known as r 16:12:10 (personally I really wish it was one or two turns inbetween kill and disappate) 16:12:12 -!- r is now known as o 16:12:30 tenofswords: well it does take 10 aut actually, or thereabouts 16:12:42 -!- o is now known as Guest30080 16:12:44 its a lot more noticable with haste up, you can kill a summoner and the minions are still around for one action or so 16:13:16 <|amethyst> simmarine: they don't get a chance to act, though 16:13:22 no not really 16:13:24 <|amethyst> simmarine: IIRC they poof on their next turn 16:13:53 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-972-gd00f1ea: Purge some now-unused blood id code. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 40-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d00f1ea6e25d 16:13:53 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-973-ga15c02f: A Depths entry vault. 10(53 minutes ago, 1 file, 20+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a15c02f51921 16:13:53 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-974-gedbe3ab: Fix dragon slaying not working on drakes. 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=edbe3ab0d4d6 16:13:53 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-975-g294aa0f: Poof revenant's summons spawned via ghostly flames upon summoner's death. 10(77 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=294aa0f187e5 16:14:23 st_ is writhing somewhere 16:15:12 you mean, calling bow-wielding skele warriors "skeletal archers"? 16:15:18 -!- Guest30080 is now known as brokkr 16:15:35 improves the game IMO, by not making you read "comes into view" that closely 16:15:39 well also putting a vault monster in an entry vault 16:16:04 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:05 also putting ranged seperated by water into a _third_ depths entry vault 16:16:36 (I was screwing with replacing all plain humans in vaults entries first) 16:16:42 ok, now the last point is the only one I'd call valid 16:17:07 what would you propose? Dropping the moat? Dropping the vault? Adding other ones? 16:17:33 propose letting me finish what I was doing before doing this other one 16:17:42 cool 16:17:54 (also drop the moat) 16:18:03 -!- LexAckson has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:40 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-976-g99e57c1: Remove IOOD from Annihilations. 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=99e57c105cff 16:19:04 I'm confused on terminology. I thought "entry vault" referred to a vault placed with upstairs, i.e. you saw the vault upon entry to the level 16:19:25 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:19:36 no moat means no need for the passage around... which leaves the vault rather minimal. I think it should be rethought then. 16:19:49 that's "arrival vault" 16:19:55 I see 16:20:04 gammafunk: it's inconsistent: for D, an entry means D:1, for any other vault entry is the outside, arrival is the inside. 16:20:07 ...well, strictly speaking the problem is that D has arrivals but is always referr 16:20:12 yes that 16:22:16 kilobyte: thanks 16:23:12 <|amethyst> re #7761 , should there be a negative cap at all on &@ ? 16:23:19 <|amethyst> like -1, -10, -128? 16:23:40 <|amethyst> (definitely at least -128) 16:23:54 stats at <0 work the same as at 0 16:24:06 -72 would be natural 16:24:33 <|amethyst> work the same, unless you're testing interactions with items 16:24:58 <|amethyst> e.g. to make sure that putting on a Str+3 ring doesn't give you any special message when you were at str -4 (but does when you were at -2) 16:25:24 ah, good point 16:25:31 <|amethyst> kilobyte: should the upper cap be 72 then? currently the range is [1, 127] 16:25:52 <|amethyst> I guess it's wizmode, so if someone asks for -128, they know what they're getting into 16:26:03 |amethyst: try it: &@ 99 99 99 16:26:17 it accepts whatever you type, then silently caps at 72 16:26:53 <|amethyst> hm, wonder where that happens 16:27:41 <|amethyst> ah, you.base_stats does still hold 99 16:27:51 -!- hart has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:36 <|amethyst> it's only in player::max_stat() that it's capped at 72 16:29:50 -!- Burer has quit [Quit: Держи гранату, баклан!] 16:30:29 <|amethyst> Also, is there a reason we #include instead of ? Old compilers? 16:30:40 <|amethyst> s/compilers/libstdc++s/ 16:30:50 MSVC at least 16:31:29 is there any benefit of using the latter, by the way? 16:32:19 <|amethyst> probably not really, now that we use the std namespace 16:32:46 <|amethyst> and arguably that was a benefix for stdint.h before 16:33:25 <|amethyst> apparently (I haven't looked it up myself) C99 says of INT8_MAX etc "C++ implementations should define these macros only when __STDC_LIMIT_MACROS is defined before is included. 16:33:29 <|amethyst> " 16:34:20 <|amethyst> I guess really you're supposed to use those wordy templates instead 16:34:24 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:28 <|amethyst> std::limits or whatever 16:34:36 meh 16:34:55 * kilobyte prefers good plain C :p 16:36:47 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-976-g99e57c1 (34) 16:38:02 -!- Lantell has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:38:46 -!- hasufell has quit [Quit: gone] 16:39:24 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:39:43 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:14 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-977-g9a7e074: Allow setting negative or zero base stats with &@ (#7761) 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9a7e074a0e9c 16:40:16 -!- inspector071 has quit [Quit: inspector071] 16:40:36 -!- Lantell has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:08 -!- hasufell has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:39 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:11 -!- dondy|afk is now known as dondy 16:51:51 -!- Raptor_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:55:27 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-978-g5c1a919: Don't claim that tome of destruction explosion is "immolation". 10(20 minutes ago, 4 files, 23+ 48-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5c1a9190c6f8 16:55:27 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-979-gc13c245: Drop a literal. 10(16 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c13c245893eb 16:55:27 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-980-g84c9a0c: Fix cmdline --gdb not working outside of --test and friends. 10(2 minutes ago, 5 files, 12+ 12-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=84c9a0c45f41 16:56:54 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 17:01:40 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Heading to bed.] 17:03:40 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:41 -!- orionstein is now known as orionstein_away 17:08:28 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:33 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:10:20 so, what goes wrong if I just delete lines 2374 to 2382 of mon-util.cc and tweak the corresponding mon-data entries 17:11:24 oif, please do 17:11:31 this makes no sense 17:15:46 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:25:43 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:26:22 -!- tenofswords_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:52 -!- tenofswords has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:29:44 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:30:33 -!- Mattias has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:34 -!- ldf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:47 -!- tenofswords_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:36:15 good changes today! :D 17:36:38 !send alefury a book of Changes 17:36:38 Sending a book of Changes to alefury. 17:36:52 :) 17:38:30 hmm apparently bmfx is finding zot:5 spawns in abyss 17:38:40 That... doesn't surprise me. 17:39:07 The current "out-of-Abyss" spawn stuff is pretty broken, and either needs a lot of fixing up or to go away entirely. 17:39:15 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:50 (A vague notion I've had for a while is to weight the level selection based on Abyss depth - some comparison of level absdepth to abyss depth?) 17:39:58 s/a lot of // 17:40:23 current picking function is nonsense -- it just takes any level, no matter if it fits or not 17:40:24 kilobyte: I never exaggerate at all :) 17:41:00 it's easy to fix it code-wise... what's hard is coming up with actual data 17:41:01 -!- brokkr has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:43:07 Oh, maybe now with runelock in vaults, we can have a "locked" vaults entrance tile and the current one as unlocked 17:43:45 * kilobyte suggests you to not waste time on it... if you do, this makes my job a bit harder. 17:44:19 kilobyte: Ok, what are your wrath effects and how long is your pennance timer? 17:44:48 I've been thinking of going kilobyte->grunt 17:45:16 * Grunt welcomes you! 17:46:08 gammafunk, I think such a tile might exist already; I'd have to go looking for it. 17:46:54 Well, it's obviously just a superficial thing, and not worth incurring kilobyte wrath 17:47:43 if you're propagating the rune lock in any form, you're not helping! :p 17:48:20 Reminds me of something I thought of on the way home... 17:48:38 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:02 In lieu of an actual lock: "You are standing at the gate to the [Depths|Vaults]. Unspeakable cruelty and harm lurk down there. Are you sure you want to enter?" 17:49:04 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:15 * Grunt hides. 17:49:31 <3 17:49:32 better hide, mister DEPTH: D, Depths, Depths, Lair 17:49:35 If you enter without rf+, you die instantly die 17:49:43 *instantantly die 17:49:48 sounds more like Zot:5 17:49:55 there some kind of an echo in echo 17:51:51 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 17:55:20 -!- Ashyr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:14 -!- kitarity has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:59:44 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 18:00:05 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:22 get rid of dumb hd/ac/ev randomization for some genus monsters: http://sprunge.us/IZQW 18:00:51 -!- Ashyr has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:00:53 make vaults entry vaults a bit less boring and a bit less extreme: http://sprunge.us/RQhB 18:00:56 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 18:01:27 the Depths entries need actual design changes so that's going to take a little while 18:03:08 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:05:13 -!- uglyjohn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:07:48 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-981-g0673ff4: Don't allow monsters to be submerged without ENCH_SUBMERGED. 10(29 minutes ago, 3 files, 23+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0673ff4bcac8 18:08:33 kilobyte: <3 at the dprf. 18:10:05 pre-emptive "please do not make a vault just because you are going to call it" 18:10:40 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:53 shouldn't the plural of "raiju" be just "raiju"? 18:12:09 sorry, raijū for both singular and plural 18:13:05 tenofswords, you do realize that that's probably a challenge to grunt? :p 18:14:18 -!- OCTOTROG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:38 raiju hitting themselves with their signature attack is a repetitive message that should probably be muted 18:15:12 geekosaur he was already going to do that 18:26:13 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:29:35 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-982-gd68e619: Make a few mid cache asserts more informative. 10(27 hours ago, 1 file, 10+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d68e61943440 18:29:35 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-983-g12c7133: An extra debug #define. 10(26 hours ago, 1 file, 7+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=12c7133bd100 18:29:35 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-984-ga1c8634: Clean up the mid cache during failed attempts to place a monster. 10(24 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a1c863488baf 18:29:37 do make a vault because you are going to call it? 18:31:00 <|amethyst> for a second I read "mid cache" as "midgame crash" 18:31:25 03HangedMan02 {kilobyte} 07* 0.14-a0-985-ga4c5d34: Standardize plain human, elf, draconian monsters 10(38 minutes ago, 2 files, 6+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a4c5d349fc26 18:31:25 03HangedMan02 {kilobyte} 07* 0.14-a0-986-g24727ac: Balance Vaults entry vaults 10(35 minutes ago, 1 file, 90+ 114-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=24727acb544d 18:31:45 gammafunk, see the dpr Grunt commented on 18:31:59 dprf 18:32:08 dprf? 18:32:14 I am clueless today, it seems 18:32:27 [21 00:07] kilobyte * 0.14-a0-981-g0673ff4: Don't allow monsters to be submerged without ENCH_SUBMERGED. (29 minutes ago, 3 files, 23+ 14-) http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0673ff4bcac8 18:32:28 [21 00:08] kilobyte: <3 at the dprf. 18:33:40 Democratic People's Republic of something that starts with F? 18:33:46 <|amethyst> France 18:34:09 Forest 18:34:10 <_< 18:35:50 Well I was going to ask if we needed new depths vaults, but if tenofswords is on that, I'll let him work his magic 18:36:04 one of those ironic names ever since the enchantress ousted pan 18:36:16 and sojobo 18:36:25 so glad 1kb removed all of Pan 18:37:25 Depths itself probably doesn't need more vaults because it's abusing placing all those old late D vaults (and there are well beyond enough of those) 18:37:26 -!- Ashyr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:38 entry vaults for it, on the other hand, ugh 18:38:21 Yeah, I meant depths entry vaults; I assumed you meant those, but perhaps you didn't 18:39:28 I guess it's also wise to just let the branch situation just stabilize for now before making new ones. 18:40:58 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:37 hmmm, what to reccomend if you're looking for a project 18:42:29 tenofswords: I actually have an overly ambitious one, but something small for a 3rd-rate vault maker would be ok 18:42:39 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:43:07 was it portals for weird little levels for each lair branch, I forget 18:43:25 yes 18:44:18 personally I want to see that pan out if only because the excuse of a portal vault allows putting crazy oods (and I'm not allowed to put a golden dragon into swamp :( ) 18:44:59 -!- tsohg has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:43 -!- Wolfram has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:46:55 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:48:36 "pan non-lord vaults"? 18:49:01 ...grunt, am I crazy, or did you make there be potentially a hell entry vault on every floor of Depths 18:50:41 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:21 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:54:45 it's modeled on d:22-27, no? 18:55:55 yes, but previously that would just mean a hell portal on all of said floors, not a hell entry vault on all of said floors give or take the dummy 18:57:05 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:17 -!- dondy has quit [Quit: ninja kapow n' gn8!] 18:57:41 -!- Ashyr has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:57:47 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:58:21 ...merde, I'm right 18:58:53 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:59:38 grunt's secret new "get kills in his maps" strategy, have a rough 4/13 to place a vault of his in his branch every floor 18:59:59 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 19:00:12 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:02:05 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:06:27 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:11:45 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:17 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:38 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:31:40 -!- klz has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:32:07 -!- _hayuto has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:32:56 if one of the unique points of revenants is to have a way to summon without the summoner, doesn't it nullify the design point to tie them together again 19:34:10 -!- Giavanni has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:46:15 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46:23 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46:34 I think having the spectres appear in the ghost trails was more for theme and interesting tactical results than it was about where did the summons come from 19:47:11 of course, since draco omega is no longer with us, we may never know for sure; at least I think that was his monster 19:47:20 he's, uh, well. 19:47:30 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:37 I decline to describe anything on those lines for this particular scenario 19:47:52 I will say that it never felt as if they were summoning without the summoner 19:48:19 it always felt as if it was just the summoner having a lot of ridiculously powerful things that it could do at once while also making itself impossible to kill if it felt like 19:49:10 At least that is my take on it, but I never really got the sense that anyone -else- felt that about revenants either 19:49:25 in practice they never felt as dangerous as a demon summoning lich, but maybe that's just me 19:49:27 so few others played crypt multiple times 19:50:55 I think they were quite worse than demon liches, but that is me and it is definitely in part a matter of what sort of characters one plays I think 19:51:15 quite possibly crypt's most dangerous thing, which I assume was part of the intent 19:53:39 like certainly a lich and a 1 is terrible but it doesn't bog you down much and the lich doesn't particularly defend itself that well 19:59:07 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:00:28 -!- paulsomebody has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:02:35 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:07:04 it is worth noting that revenants have terrible stats in terms of actually killing people, though that's more of how generous crawl's power curve was (and still is?) 20:10:30 -!- inspector071 has quit [Quit: inspector071] 20:12:06 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:04 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 20:19:55 -!- Ratgina_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:20:16 -!- kitarity has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:21:37 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:26:49 -!- Basil has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:31 -!- Ashyr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:50 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: good night and good luck to all!] 20:33:17 -!- Yezarul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:33:20 -!- Ashyr has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:34:07 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:37:10 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 20:38:12 -!- wack has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:38:23 !learn add octopode http://robertbowenart.com/wp-content/themes/RobertBowenArt/images/The-Guardian.jpg 20:38:23 octopode[3/3]: http://robertbowenart.com/wp-content/themes/RobertBowenArt/images/The-Guardian.jpg 20:38:45 how nice it'd be to be this simple 20:38:48 wait what happened to the other octopode gifs :| 20:38:51 why can't octopodes wear helmets?? 20:39:03 revenant (10L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 67-96 | AC/EV: 8/12 | Dam: 26 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1927 | Sp: ghostly fireball (3d23), ghostly flames, dispel undead (3d27), 04esc:blink away | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 20:39:03 %??revenant 20:39:03 this photographic evidence suggests they can 20:39:31 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:31 I'm not sure exactly how they are supposed to kill people personally 20:39:49 never seemed that dangerous to me, just annoying because sometimes you have to teleport away 20:40:17 -!- soundlust|2 is now known as soundlust 20:42:02 they're dangerous if you elect not to teleport away or if you're undead 20:42:48 can you still lrd them? that seemed a bit weird to me 20:43:23 yes 20:44:43 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 20:45:51 i have a few jiyva related thoughts 20:46:03 i will not retread the stuff related to depths/runelock, that seems well covered 20:46:42 would it be terrible if jiyva's muts were a smaller number of muts assigned more permanently? i really disliked the fluctuating in and out of muts 20:46:52 that makes sense for xom, i was less convinced it was good for jiyva 20:47:09 probably what I really mean by revenants being dangerous is that a lot of the time if I see one I can't possibly safely kill it but if I know that that just means I always have to go away and try to work around it 20:47:26 gasp, it's a mobile immobile 20:47:27 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:28 :P 20:47:36 heh 20:48:07 also, i bet slimify would still have merit if the slime you got was hostile instead of neutral 20:48:27 as is slimify seems like possibly the most overpowered god ability there is (greater healing obv up there too but that at least takes serious invo) 20:49:46 what are you supposed to do as a jiyva worshipper with a hostile slime 20:50:46 given that those generally are not supposed to exist for them at all 20:50:53 hmm 20:51:57 basically it's insane to me that you have an unresistable one shot kill for 90+% of a three rune game that also doubles in a lot of situations as a pretty damn good summon 20:52:56 the hostile thing was just the most obvious thing that occurred to me in terms of retaining the polymorph behavior without making it as crazy, but yes, i see your point 20:54:30 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:36 (If it's sliming something, maybe it should get the slime from somewhere, like HP. Losing HP is how you normally get cool slimes, right?) 20:56:20 mmmmm, hp costs 20:56:22 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:22 -!- inspector071 has quit [Quit: inspector071] 20:59:10 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:09 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 21:04:09 -!- eb has quit [] 21:07:11 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 21:10:57 -!- pwnmonke_ has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 21:14:53 -!- ark_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:12 -!- PolkaDot has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:16:20 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 21:20:37 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:21:40 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 21:27:41 -!- Tarquinn has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:08 |amethyst: did you intend to remove iood from power, or annihilations? 21:29:17 the commit message says annihilations but it's removed from power 21:29:33 woopsie 21:34:00 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:35:08 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:46 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 21:42:30 <|amethyst> oops 21:42:48 learn add |amethyst <|amethyst> oops 21:43:59 -!- Ashyr is now known as Crunch_ 21:44:34 -!- monty__ has quit [Quit: monty__] 21:48:14 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:16 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-987-gc8002fa: Remove IOOD from the correct book (doh) 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c8002fabcd63 21:49:35 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:50:01 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 21:53:46 <|amethyst> For fixing ignis, should I: 1. increase the HD but lower the XP mod (and reduce the HP per die) or 2. give it a sui generis bonus to spell power? 21:54:08 fix by removing it 21:54:35 <|amethyst> I'd rather give it sentinel's mark than remove it 21:55:01 <|amethyst> if high-power corona is completely negligible 21:56:58 -!- tenofswords has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:27 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 21:58:34 -!- ac13 has quit [Quit: ac13] 22:04:35 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:06:42 good thing credit was given to doh in that commit 22:07:00 <|amethyst> doh is my dark god 22:08:00 * gammafunk shudders at the thought of mark in abyss 22:10:37 holy monsters already have high-power corona 22:10:46 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:12:58 and now you can get pearl dragons and ophanims in abyss 22:13:04 not sure if pearls have a corona though 22:13:09 "ophanims" 22:14:19 someone should make a gigantic oyster vault containing a pearl dragon 22:14:25 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 22:15:08 I don't think pearl dragons should generate in abyss 22:15:45 wheals: Look, ophan is hebrew, mistakes like that will happen 22:16:20 gammafunk: i just imagined randomized ##crawl regulars appearing in the abyss ala Donald 22:16:37 oh, thought you were making fun of my double pluralization 22:16:48 well, that too :P 22:18:25 (several reasons: first, they are fast and ridiculously dangerous to fight; second, it makes scumming abyss for PDA sort of reasonable; third, weren't they always supposed to be limited to vaults only?) 22:19:45 (not as bad as having oofs in abyss, though) 22:20:33 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:20:45 What about if they only show past a certain depth? The scumming argument still applies, but at least it's harder to do it. 22:21:39 gammafunk: they'd still be a reason to avoid going to those depths of abyss with any Ds/undead char 22:21:41 well then two of the three arguments still apply and additionally it adds a spoilery breakpoint 22:22:46 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:23 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 22:24:34 I just found a weird bug with spider webs and Xom-roulette 22:24:38 idk if this has been reported 22:24:44 (I am too lazy to check) 22:27:29 -!- myrmidette1 has quit [Client Quit] 22:29:29 are you also too lazy to tell us what the bug is :P 22:29:40 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:30:02 distracted, sorry 22:30:20 I was xom-rouletted and at some point in the journey landed on a web 22:30:25 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:30:38 when it was done I was not in a web, but my ev/sh was still web numbers 22:31:07 until I checked to see that yes I was still using my buckler, and when I exited out of the inventory my numbers were fixed 22:31:12 probably just the display was wrong (still a bug of course) 22:31:24 that's what I assumed 22:33:49 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:35:49 -!- BirdoPrey has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:37:25 -!- reaver_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:39:16 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:40:57 Hey, I just started worshipping Chei but I can't train Inovocations even though Bend Time is available. I'm a TrMo on CSZO. I'm guessing it relates to the recent Bend Time change. 22:45:01 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:45:32 Mm. 22:45:35 I think I've found the problem. 22:45:35 That sounds plausible. 22:45:40 yeah, iirc the code for determining whether you can train inv is pretty hacky 22:45:53 The change removes Bend Time from the MAX_GOD_ABILITY array. 22:46:15 which means gain_god_ability(), which handles training Invocations, is never called. 22:46:18 yes, ely has the same issue 22:46:38 I didnt realise Djinn had beserking disabled, when did this happen? 22:47:03 Somefellow: After the 0.13 tournament as part of kilobyte's balance changes. 22:47:13 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:31 Hm, even with the free beserk I still found this too hard to play haha 22:48:13 I guess religion.cc:3614 needs chei added 22:48:36 that ely check doesn't quite work properly either 22:48:36 <|amethyst> sounds good 22:48:43 <|amethyst> oh? 22:48:44 -!- Tor is now known as Torra 22:48:49 or rather 22:48:55 it works, but if you convert to ely and abandon, you can still train invoc 22:49:05 <|amethyst> ah 22:49:09 oh wait no not quite that either 22:49:12 <|amethyst> and I guess it wouldn't work with chei anyway 22:49:15 <|amethyst> because of penance 22:49:26 if you convert to ely and then convert to chei, you can still train evoc :P 22:49:29 er 22:49:30 invoc 22:49:41 |amethyst: I don't think penance should affect skill training 22:49:58 it's just a temporary thing, like being silenced doesn't stop you from training spell skills 22:50:10 <|amethyst> maybe all invo-using gods should give you invo from the very beginning 22:50:22 that's an option, yeah 22:50:23 <|amethyst> likewise for nemelex and kiku and their respective skills 22:50:27 that sounds simpler, yeah 22:52:03 I'm trying to remember if there are any invo-using gods that only start using invo at very high piety 22:52:18 probably not? 22:52:30 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:52 if it's always * or ** then just giving invo training always if you worship that god sounds good 22:53:12 ??gods[2 22:53:12 gods[2/2]: Ashenzari, Beogh, Cheibriados, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Jiyva, Kikubaaqudgha, Lugonu, Makhleb, Nemelex Xobeh, Okawaru, Sif Muna, Trog, Vehumet, Xom, Yredelemnul, Zin, the Shining One. 22:53:27 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:53:31 elliptic: Ash count? 22:53:39 ??scrying 22:53:40 scrying[1/1]: Lets you see through walls. 22:53:44 ash doesn't use invo 22:53:50 Oh right. 22:53:56 am trying to remember when TSO gives shield 22:54:01 ** iirc 22:54:23 even if it were 3* probably it wouldn't change much 22:54:31 2* 22:54:53 hmmn, and Beogh... I don't know well enough I guess 22:54:54 I guess there is jiyva 22:55:04 jiyva gives request jelly early, right? 22:55:08 I sort of wish jiyva didn't use invo 22:55:14 invo doesn't really matter for request jelly 22:55:25 i was just about to suggest that yeah 22:55:31 making jiyva not use invoc that is 22:56:06 it might as well not exist, 5-6 invo is all you need with jiyva 22:56:13 since slimify is the only ability that depends on it for anything other than success rate and even there you don't actually need much power 22:56:26 could just make success like trog 22:56:42 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:52 FR:remove invocations skill, use a forumla base on XL 22:57:06 well if you did that for all gods it would be silly 22:57:13 and possibly ruin a lot of them 22:57:19 generally I think that something is wrong if a god uses invo skill but nobody gets more than 5-6 invo, yes 22:58:04 !lg * won sk=invocations s=-god 22:58:04 518 games for * (won sk=invocations): Xom, 2x Vehumet, 2x Ashenzari, 2x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Trog, 7x Nemelex Xobeh, 8x Okawaru, 9x Jiyva, 9x, 10x Beogh, 13x Cheibriados, 29x Lugonu, 30x Sif Muna, 30x Fedhas, 32x Yredelemnul, 35x Makhleb, 45x Zin, 68x The Shining One, 183x Elyvilon 22:58:06 Trog's non-usage of Invo feels very strange to me whenever I play Trog but I guess it works out OK 22:58:11 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:58:12 xl might make sense for beogh 22:58:19 yes i always wondered why trog doesnt use invo 22:58:32 obviously so he can be super strong early 22:58:35 since just one ability seems weird 22:58:42 I think it's because invo skill gives MP 22:58:49 it used to not though! 22:59:00 well and now evo skill does and he doesn't frown on that 22:59:18 yes, people do train evo on trog (probably even better now with evokers being a thing) 22:59:18 and it's of critical importance to train Evo on at least one Be 22:59:25 simmarine: I think invo has given MP forever 22:59:28 that being DDBe of course 22:59:39 elliptic: really? i thought that was brought along the evo change, my bad 22:59:40 SwissStopwatch: yeah 22:59:49 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:21 making trog use invo skill might be a reasonable way of nerfing trog at some point 23:00:25 i could get behind trog using invoc skill maybe, yeah 23:01:12 training evo for MP on berserkers is actually quite good on any species if you have guardian spirit and aren't using antimagic 23:01:30 (I was thinking of teaching qw to do this even...) 23:01:52 seems a little marginal for qw but probably not hard to tell it to get like 5 ranks late 23:02:23 -!- Grenth has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:02:32 i use invo on jiyva 23:02:42 usually 2-5 23:02:48 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:51 ie i turn in on kill things for a floor turn it off 23:03:00 mostly because slimify can be annoyingly unreliable otherwise 23:03:08 yes well probably that is what most people do I would guess? 23:03:22 i doubt most people do it actually 23:03:22 better to have it last for 4 turns or whatever than 1 turn 23:03:41 i don't even know if jean does it tbh 23:05:00 seems like he does 23:05:02 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:09 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:14 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:06:28 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 23:09:33 -!- CeleryMan has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:14 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 23:10:40 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 23:14:26 -!- monty__ has quit [Quit: monty__] 23:15:05 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 23:15:31 So is somebody working on a patch to solve the immediate Bend Time issue or should I file a mantis report? 23:16:06 reaver_, I think we were just discussing how to fix it best, but feel free to file a report to motivate the discussion <_< 23:19:33 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:20:11 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:22:50 oh what's the problem with the bend time change? 23:23:13 never mind I see it 23:23:19 it doesnt actually bend time 23:23:34 i dont think any crawl abilities work in real life though 23:24:24 what are you talking about, can't you summon your undead minions from wherever they are in the world? 23:24:36 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:24:41 <|amethyst> vacuously, yes 23:24:42 well when im upstairs i cant 23:24:46 since theyre downstairs 23:25:08 <|amethyst> simmarine: should worship yred and get better minions 23:25:17 i would never do such a thing 23:26:40 -!- Ragnor has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:27:33 -!- Torra has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:28:44 -!- reaver_ has quit [] 23:29:14 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:30:08 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:30 Bend Time does not enable training Invocations on Chei Worshippers. by Reaver 23:30:42 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:31:21 hm. That's a bother 23:31:34 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:39 bh, read the logs; we were discussing ways to fix it. 23:31:52 Such as: giving Invo training ability immediately if you are following an invo-using god. 23:32:01 (and, e.g., Evo training immediately for Nemelex) 23:32:02 Grunt: That sounds like a good solution 23:32:11 What's the point of stopping people from training whatever they want? 23:32:37 It just makes you learn a low level spell or pick up a sword 23:33:10 <|amethyst> bh: interface convenience is the only real justification, and that could be dealt with in other ways 23:33:41 <|amethyst> "only real" is probably too strong 23:33:52 bh: two reasons: first, saving players from training useless skills that they don't know are useless, second, not cluttering up the skill screen/interface 23:33:58 it also stops new players from- yeah 23:34:23 elliptic, MarvinPA: we already throw them a bone with auto-train 23:34:33 "throw them a bone"...? 23:34:35 a lot of players get confused about what weapon categories different items are, whether invo/evo do things, etc 23:35:05 and the skill training restrictions help with this 23:35:09 MarvinPA: new players can run auto-train. If we allow manual training of arbitrary categories, I don't see how n00bs could confuse 23:35:12 could get confused 23:35:12 i don't think interface clarity for new players is about "throwing bones" 23:36:11 bh: we should try to keep the skill screen as simple as possible, not add new options (which is what you would need for any sensible interface for training arbitrary skills) 23:36:28 !send elliptic a potion of experience 23:36:28 Sending a potion of experience to elliptic. 23:36:54 <|amethyst> elliptic: there's already an option to show default/all 23:36:55 Grunt: potion of experience wouldn't be sensible for the generic m screen 23:37:03 elliptic: I agree. 23:37:09 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:37:21 <|amethyst> elliptic: though there would be extra letters (compared to now) for non-zero but untrainable skills 23:37:46 <|amethyst> currently-untrainable 23:37:57 -!- conted_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:38:00 Couldn't we just let * allow selection of those skills untrainable from the not-* screen? 23:38:19 gammafunk: what's the gain? 23:38:19 I guess that's a bit ugly when they disable the skill 23:38:39 not having code that checkes whether the skill should be trainable 23:39:14 we already have this code, and it is easy to maintain compared with lots of crawl code 23:39:16 <|amethyst> allowing hoas to train axes from the very beginning of the game 23:40:47 -!- buppy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:57 -!- Arkaniad_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:40:58 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:41:15 |amethyst: right... I don't really view this as a desirable thing to enable, personally 23:41:58 not that "safe" a thing to do as a player anyway, even 23:42:19 training skills and then never finding what you wanted them for, sort of a bad practice 23:42:31 -!- UseBees has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:20 -!- slifty has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:43:31 elliptic: they can do it as soon as they find an axe 23:43:51 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:43:54 bh: yes, in that case raising the skill is improving their character's ability to use an item they found 23:45:28 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:41 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-987-gc8002fa (34) 23:45:45 elliptic: I don't think this will significantly change balance, and if it does we can make crawl harder in other ways 23:45:55 bh: this has literally nothing to do with balance 23:46:02 nobody has said anything about balance 23:46:38 Re-read your last statement. 23:46:51 It was a statement about balance 23:47:00 ?????? 23:47:33 "in that case raising the skill is improving their character's ability to use an item they found" 23:47:35 it was a factual statement about what the "Axes" skill does in crawl 23:47:50 it improves your ability to use an axe 23:49:05 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 23:49:05 this is my explanation for why finding an axe should let a player train axes skill: because from that point onward, the skill does something for the player 23:49:14 this has nothing to do with balance 23:50:00 OK great. Your first statement, in its brevity, is different from that 23:50:29 -!- Crunch_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:11 -!- lazarenth has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:53:08 also, letting people train axes on turn 0 on HOAs in preparation for that hand axe they find on D:4 just encourages players to follow their apts... for instance, they are far less likely to be tempted by a whip of draining on D:3 if they already have 5.3 axes skill 23:56:57 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 23:57:09 (mainly though I just think it is bad to offer the player options with no immediate benefit to them) 23:57:25 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:59:02 That's a sounds like a fundamentally good design principle. 23:59:38 is that why we don't ask "would you like to die now?" every turn?