00:00:45 Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-b1-28-gc7b9293 00:04:55 -!- MP2E has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:05:51 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:13 Hey -- is there a reason that we don't have jewelry and food mimics? 00:06:16 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:31 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-155-gd989017 (34) 00:10:35 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!] 00:11:22 we used to 00:11:28 dunno what happened to them 00:13:38 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-155-gd989017 (34) 00:15:48 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:14 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:15 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 00:17:33 -!- Xiberia_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:56 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:57 -!- Xiberia_ is now known as Xiberia 00:19:00 okay, dangerous question 00:19:16 say i created a set of tiles at a different size 00:19:18 -!- Sleeves is now known as Sleeves1994 00:19:21 e.g. 20x20 00:19:34 how hard would it be to make the code support this? 00:27:53 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:56 -!- Sleeves1994 is now known as Assbag 00:30:50 ontoclasm: ok. I'm going to put them back in 00:31:26 oh god what have i done 00:31:31 :D 00:32:03 next you're gonna bring back that thing where they teleport when hit by ranged attacks 00:33:40 -!- nonethousand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:34:05 ugh 00:34:22 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:11 "Fix ravenous feature mimics trying to mimic ravenous item mimics." -- hehe 00:37:28 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 00:37:41 the r ax stirs! 00:41:17 both food and jewels are something players are likely to want to pick up 00:41:29 I see some theme issues with jewel mimics, though 00:41:44 size... 00:42:17 well, mimics manage to mimic both doors and pairs of gloves 00:42:26 so they must be pretty flexible 00:43:21 03bh02 07* 0.14-a0-156-g6afc5a2: Add more mimic types 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6afc5a2a84c3 00:43:25 maybe mimics are partially invisible 00:43:56 kilobyte: After reading the commit logs, I think galehar didn't include them by oversight rather than intention 00:45:28 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:28 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:45 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:56 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-155-gd989017 00:48:43 -!- TangoBravo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:54:36 -!- Taraiph has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 00:54:55 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:58:16 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:29 hey ontoclasm... can you make a new tile for the hat of pondering? :D 01:04:43 like a fez 01:05:07 haha 01:05:19 pimp hat of pondering 01:07:28 -!- ekix has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:29 ontoclasm: 'cause http://bhickey.net/chei.svg 01:07:48 the association between Chei and a fez is etched in my mind 01:09:27 -!- LogicNinja has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:10:50 hah 01:11:06 that picture is amazing 01:12:19 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:30 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:16:54 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:17:51 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 01:19:25 bh: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1000017/crawl/gastronok.png 01:19:36 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:44 ontoclasm: dang that's funny 01:21:54 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:23:55 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:27:29 -!- JaGGedTK has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:31:31 The spriggan berserker invokes Xom's protection! 01:31:36 Is it supposed to do that? 01:33:49 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:34:35 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:40:03 bh: oh I was working on some new unrands, including a fez one 01:40:13 it lets you summon slugs 01:41:28 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:41:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 01:42:24 MarvinPA: do you know why we didn't have food & jewellery mimics? 01:43:02 bh: mimics used to masquerade as only top-rate items, which excluded food 01:43:11 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:43:19 kilobyte: ah-ha 01:43:25 because someone thought a randart club will draw attention while a bread ration won't 01:44:43 auto-explore means you bumble into everything, though 01:45:48 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:45:48 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 01:47:17 not weapons 01:48:37 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:48:51 but what if that club is super good!!! 01:49:38 it's quite hard to make a club worth picking up... 01:49:41 i remember when mimics were hilariously obvious due to mimicking transparent storm dragon armor and so on 01:50:12 and you could step back and it would just look at you 01:50:28 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:50:56 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:50:57 this is incredibly minor, but I had a spriggan berserker invoke xom's protection once. seems like a small bug? 01:53:07 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-155-gd989017 (34) 01:53:53 if it happened once, that'd be so Xomly 01:54:02 I guess it's not the case, though 01:54:41 -!- ontoclasm has left ##crawl-dev 01:55:21 I think it only happened once; at least, I noticed the SpBe's evoking trog's protection later 01:55:35 ...? 01:55:52 I'm not aware of monsters being able to convert to a different god. 01:56:53 -!- Somefellow has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:56 maybe xom was messing with me in some way, I am playing a xom worshipper 02:02:58 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 02:06:13 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:16:42 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:17:15 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:17:52 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:36:42 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:42:43 -!- HenryClay has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:45:13 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:47:24 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:54:10 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:03 -!- JaGGedTK has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 02:55:26 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:56:03 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 02:56:44 asd456654dsa the Cudgeler (L1 MiGl) (D:1) 02:58:49 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:01:01 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:28 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:02:34 -!- hurdos has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:03:42 -!- hurdos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:03:57 -!- buppy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:05:43 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:09:10 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:55 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:56 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:24 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:25 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:16:48 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17:43 -!- ebarrett has quit [] 03:19:53 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:09 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:20:46 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:24:10 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:24:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:25:34 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:53 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 03:27:15 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:50 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:31:11 so unique inscriptions are impossible to clear now? 03:31:31 cant give my dagger {psyche} a =f that actually works 03:32:14 -!- simmarine 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06:57:51 -!- John__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:01:33 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:45 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:19 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:20:26 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:34:54 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:36:25 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:38:49 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:26 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:47:05 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:47:59 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:35 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:55 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [] 08:04:37 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:10:14 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:54 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 08:15:42 -!- tkappleton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:20:31 -!- Ladykiller69 is now known as drahbeg 08:20:36 -!- drahbeg is now known as Drahbeg 08:25:09 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:26:32 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 08:28:06 03pubby02 07[dwants] * 0.14-a0-106-g2057b86: Merge branch 'master' into dwants 10(3 days ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2057b86a740f 08:28:06 03pubby02 07[dwants] * 0.14-a0-107-gab2918a: Remove dig from orc sorcerers. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ab2918a6cb9e 08:28:06 03pubby02 07[dwants] * 0.14-a0-108-g60d7bcd: Permit monster formicids to throw large rocks. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=60d7bcd0fccb 08:28:07 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-157-g00b68ed: Don't put +Jump on randarts 10(15 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=00b68ed7edfd 08:28:07 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-158-g12828f2: Reword monster flight descriptions 10(14 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=12828f248391 08:28:07 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-159-ge4b9b5e: Add an escape hatch to an altar vault 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e4b9b5ee5c42 08:28:07 Cherry-picked 3 commits into stone_soup-0.13 08:28:09 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:28:32 oh i pushed dwants stuff, oops 08:28:49 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:16 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 08:32:28 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:36:03 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:38:48 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:40:21 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:41:02 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:44:59 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:27 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:48:58 -!- axujen has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:17 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 08:54:11 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:55:13 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:11 -!- RexRuthor has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:00:51 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:02:22 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:06:57 -!- Drahbeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:17 well done to whoever did the treasure island surrounded by lava for the labyrinth 09:08:08 mixes it up quite nicely 09:11:22 ??bolt of inaccuracy 09:11:22 bolt of inaccuracy[1/1]: Deals good damage at Evocations level 0 - 27. You can line up several nasty monsters and blast them down all at once (irresistable damage!). Especially good with a corona-type effect like Sunlight or TSO halo to make it more accurate. 09:12:07 does it matter at all what invo you have? 09:12:18 I red somewhere that its around 1k damage 09:12:40 wrong channel, also no, inacc is affected by evo, not invo 09:15:58 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:30 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:24:03 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.14-a0-160-g5ca5bf3: Jump ability and brand icons 10(29 seconds ago, 2 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5ca5bf3e1789 09:33:04 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:36 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:03 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39:47 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 09:40:36 -!- Suga_H has quit [] 09:40:44 Ao the Necromancer (L25 DsFi) (Slime:2) 09:40:59 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:42:00 estick the Brawler (L19 GrMo) (Abyss:1) 09:43:21 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:43:30 -!- Crehl has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:44:05 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:44:13 pigah the Martial Artist (L10 OpMo) (D:9) 09:44:36 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:46:14 Terrin the Shield-Bearer (L7 DsHu) (D:4) 09:51:09 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:00:48 how much int is needed to replicate the effect on spell sucess wizardry has? 10:01:05 couldnt find exact numbers in the bots 10:01:42 exact numbers and formulas have a tendency to not be useful 10:03:01 but aproximate numbers would be helpful in evaluation of value 10:03:47 or am I missing something entirely different here? 10:08:15 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:09:31 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:09 Drahbeg: Int and wizardry work very differently. Also, wrong channel. 10:11:41 its a numbers question so I assumed it'd fit here quite nicely 10:14:18 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:14:34 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:26 this channel is about designing and coding the game 10:15:35 (generally) 10:18:31 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.14-a0-161-gf81a4fe: Recenter and optimize some ammo 10(4 minutes ago, 17 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f81a4feda36c 10:22:54 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:24:33 -!- Crehl_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:33:28 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:44 Spammy messages when fighting in water in trunk by magicpoints 10:37:43 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:52 <|amethyst> Drahbeg: the "formula" for spell failure is incredibly complex: see spell_fail. Intelligence is subtracted from the raw "chance" before that is rescaled back into 0-100 range 10:37:52 |amethyst: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:38:09 <|amethyst> Drahbeg: wizardry is applied at the very end, see _apply_spellcasting_success_boosts 10:39:22 -!- fsufitch has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:36 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:44 ello! 10:41:13 i was inspired by dcss to start working on a web based roguelike type game, and i wanted to drop by and say hi and thanks 10:42:00 Lelouch the Cudgeler (L1 OgBe) (D:1) 10:43:19 Wop the Charmwright (L1 GrSk) (D:1) 10:43:25 domi the Skirmisher (L1 NaFi) (D:1) 10:43:53 <|amethyst> Lelouch and domi were manually SIGTERMed 10:43:57 <|amethyst> !lm Wop crash -log 10:43:58 16. Wop, XL1 GrSk, T:55 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Wop/crash-Wop-20131004-154318.txt 10:44:15 <|amethyst> !lm domi crash -log 10:44:16 1. domi, XL1 NaFi, T:138 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/domi/crash-domi-20131004-154324.txt 10:44:25 -!- gregunderscorem has quit [Client Quit] 10:44:39 <|amethyst> Wop was not, but I guess was watchdogged at the same point 10:45:06 <|amethyst> webtiles_send_last_messages -> TilesFramework::finish_message -> sendto... no idea why this only seems to happen on CAO 10:45:36 <|amethyst> fsufitch: Great! You'll have to send up a link sometime 10:46:06 <|amethyst> But I must be going for now, work calls 10:46:17 i will, but it might be a while 10:46:20 :-) 10:49:01 i actually wanted to ask if anyone had any advice on good and bad ways to approach the flexible structure of a game like crawl 10:49:28 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:50:31 i have a big object oriented python framework prototyped, but I'm not sure if that's efficient/good 10:51:01 <|amethyst> Bad ways: the way Crawl is implemented :) 10:51:37 see, this is why i asked :-P 10:52:08 how is crawl implemented? i want to dig around the coffee but don't really know where to start 10:52:13 <|amethyst> I guess crawl isn't that bad (I've seen worse... like old crawl) 10:52:17 *code 10:52:45 (tablet autocorrect, sorry) 10:52:53 <|amethyst> fsufitch: for one thing, quite a bit of stuff is in the player class that shouldn't be 10:53:08 <|amethyst> fsufitch: it became a convenient place to stick globals 10:53:11 generally, crawl is built around global state 10:53:21 -!- Pisano1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:53:32 <|amethyst> yeah 10:53:58 <|amethyst> when you switch levels, even with X[] to just look at the map of another level, the current level has to be unloaded from memory and the new one loaded 10:54:10 <|amethyst> this maybe made sense in 1995 but probably not now 10:54:23 yeah i was going to use a centralized "shard" object to encapsulate a game 10:54:37 you have to keep in mind that Linley only split it into several files when his compiler balked at the input file size 10:54:40 it's still showing today 10:54:48 ah, are memory concerns a real thing? 10:54:59 lol 10:55:20 <|amethyst> in modern crawl, only if you're running a server with dozens of games 10:55:56 -!- floatboth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:12 <|amethyst> crawl is huge by 1995 standards, but !25 MB resident is not much these days 10:56:18 <|amethyst> s/!/~/ 10:56:55 oh, I'm used to 60 GB servers. 25 mb is nothing 10:57:26 <|amethyst> Mem: 8177336 7856940 320396 0 1131696 3793504 10:57:26 <|amethyst> -/+ buffers/cache: 2931740 5245596 10:57:30 <|amethyst> that's CSZO 10:57:45 how is crawl made modular, what with all the monsters, locations, items, etc? 10:57:56 cool 10:57:56 <|amethyst> that 3GiB used will go up quite a bit during tourney time 10:58:09 makes sense 10:58:13 crawl isn't modular in any interesting sense of the word 10:58:29 <|amethyst> fsufitch: there is a static array of monster types; and a global array of extant monsters on the current level 10:58:40 <|amethyst> monster and player do at least share a base class actor, but not much code 10:59:38 so when you add a new monster you just code is stuff then include it in the big static array? 10:59:59 <|amethyst> fsufitch: and then add stuff in various other places 10:59:59 fsufitch: who said anything about modular??? 11:00:22 <|amethyst> fsufitch: for example, adding it to the population lists so it will be randomly generated 11:00:36 <|amethyst> fsufitch: and if you want to give it special behaviour, that goes wherever 11:00:43 i figured it must be modular to be so expansive :-P 11:00:54 hahaha 11:00:56 i see 11:01:17 <|amethyst> fsufitch: some special behaviours are implemented as spells, some in a big if switch in mon-abil.cc, and a few are scattered elsewhere 11:01:32 there are a few pieces which are actually modular, but most of those are utility classes like FixedVector and so on ... 11:01:59 and some very similar things are -inconsistently- implemented as either spells or special abilities for different monsters 11:02:38 hmm...i noticed some discrepancy there, yes 11:02:46 and there are spells which are chock full of per-monster special-cases too ... 11:03:15 so if you were to write it again, would you go with a modular scheme? 11:03:35 and it generally isn't clear how to improve the big picture without causing more of either cognitive or technical overhead 11:03:42 since I'm using python that's a big pressure 11:03:50 fsufitch, 'modular' is a buzzword 11:03:58 -!- hurdos3 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:04:06 i suppose i should define it more clearly 11:05:33 a very basic set of core structures and methods defining an 'engine' of sorts, which you then add specifics on top of 11:05:53 nothing of the sort here 11:05:59 e.g. the source engine is"modular" 11:06:22 is it really 11:06:38 ah. do you think having simmering of the site would help or detract? 11:06:54 clear separation between engine and gameplay logic isn't really modularity 11:07:01 unless I'm very confused, it is 11:07:18 hmm, maybe I'm just being bad at words 11:07:21 well.. unless you choose to call 'engine' and 'game' modules, but why, you can just call them 'engine' and 'game' 11:07:55 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 23.0/20130807024356]] 11:07:58 you're right 11:07:59 <|amethyst> I would, for example, make all the monster behaviour stuff part of the monster class 11:08:05 <|amethyst> every type of monster a subclass 11:08:10 -!- fsufitch has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:08:18 <|amethyst> this would be a pain to do in C++, but in python you're much better off 11:08:18 <|amethyst> doh 11:08:26 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:29 -!- fsufitch has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:42 <|amethyst> fsufitch: what's the last thing you saw from me before disconnecting? 11:08:43 -!- imantor_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:08:46 ack flaky internet 11:08:50 would we get the option to use a programming language which had something better than #include ? 11:09:05 'every type of monster a subclass' 11:09:08 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:16 <|amethyst> fsufitch: I also said: this would be a pain to do in C++, but in python you're much better off 11:09:18 -!- Zermako has quit [] 11:09:29 -!- johnny0 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:09:36 |amethyst: the thing about that is, how do you make different monsters share an ability without duplicating code then? 11:09:37 <|amethyst> since you can create new classes programmatically 11:09:51 give most abilities their OWN classes? 11:10:05 yeah, that's the approach i was going for 11:10:08 SamB, well, some languages have better facilities for that sort of thing than C++ 11:10:11 SamB, but it gets messy, yeah 11:10:19 <|amethyst> SamB: you could do mixins and hooks 11:10:21 this is where post-c++ notions such as roles come in 11:10:23 <|amethyst> but what Zaba said 11:10:40 actors,monsters,effects,spells, everything in its own class 11:10:42 or mixins, the granddaddy 11:10:43 SamB, and sooner or later you find yourself working alongside the object system rather than leveraging it 11:10:52 heh 11:10:53 SamB, which is a symptom for lack of metaprogramming :P 11:11:06 it seems like a huge overhead 11:11:19 so, metaprogramming ... 11:11:55 why did that make me think "ocaml"; I'm not even positive ocaml actually has metaprogramming facilities ... 11:12:25 I think it does 11:13:11 but I never actually interacted with it extensively, so 11:13:13 so you think the overhead of a structure like that is worth it? 11:13:54 fsufitch, premature optimization is the root of all evil, etc. 11:14:21 -!- chlorine has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:14:51 i know, but I don't have a super good reference frame for that 11:15:06 <|amethyst> fsufitch: in some ways it would be an improvement compared to things like allocating six spell slots for every monster regardless of whether it has spells 11:15:18 <|amethyst> I wouldn't worry about that too much 11:15:41 <|amethyst> things like LOS calculations are where you really want to care about efficiency 11:15:48 <|amethyst> or pathfinding 11:15:50 indeed 11:15:53 and it's not something you have to do more than once, ideally 11:15:55 <|amethyst> stuff that happens over and over again 11:16:05 (crawl has 4 or more implementations of A*/dijkstra, but it's crawl) 11:16:22 heh 11:16:29 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:16:53 what about map generation? 11:17:28 I've noticed some lag in that 11:18:19 <|amethyst> that's in large part because we generate the level, check for vetoes (things like a disconnected level or inaccessible stairs), and if there was one repeat 11:18:24 in theory, level generation could be even done in a background thread or something to that effect... 11:18:39 <|amethyst> so probably it tried generating several dozen levels while you were seeing the lag 11:19:22 I wonder if it is feasible to build level generators in such a way that they always produce valid levels 11:20:10 oh, huh, memcheck keeps V (valid-value) bits for every single bit does it? 11:20:16 it would involve, for example, the level generation function locating and returning a list of all eligible vault places, instead of the level builder trying to guess one 11:20:29 <|amethyst> Zaba: and whether it would be any more efficient... if you have to spend 3x the effort to place a vault but you only had 50% vault vetos to begin with, it's a net loss 11:20:37 i was looking at a way to generate levels first as a graph of locations, then actually connect them in a real map 11:21:13 <|amethyst> Zaba: what's eligible for one vault might not be eligible for another, because of size, accessibility of exits, etc 11:21:37 |amethyst, would need to generate such a list for each eligible vault... :P 11:21:45 one sec, what is a"vault" in your jargon? 11:21:53 yeah, it'd probably be terribly inefficient for anything but the most trivial case 11:22:05 <|amethyst> fsufitch: a vault is a more-or-less fixed part of a level 11:22:06 fsufitch, a predefined part of a level 11:22:10 because i feel like it's not The Vaults in game 11:22:16 ah OK 11:22:26 <|amethyst> fsufitch: e.g. the entries to the temple (there are several, and one is randomly picked each game) 11:22:54 and like crazy yiuf's chamber? 11:23:07 <|amethyst> fsufitch: your approach would solve a lot of the problems, but that can restrict what your levels look like 11:23:10 <|amethyst> yeah 11:23:30 fsufitch, the thing is, the way you build levels ultimately depends on what kind of levels you want to get, and nothing but that 11:23:46 hmm 11:23:59 fsufitch, it's like with game engines. Doesn't make sense to build an engine without a game. Doesn't make sense to build a level generator without levels. 11:24:16 how does crawl generate the non-vault areas? 11:24:28 yeah, i have to remind myself of that 11:24:35 <|amethyst> fsufitch: it has several layout generators, which work in a variety of ways 11:24:53 <|amethyst> fsufitch: then it tries to overlay vaults on top of what was generated 11:25:07 most of them are based around the idea of filling the 80x70 grid with floor (and occasionally other things) in some patterns 11:25:12 <|amethyst> some levels get an "encompass vault", which means they don't have a layout, just the vault 11:25:25 which makes then pretty non-reusable 11:25:41 mhm 11:26:05 (my both lines were referring to crawl's layout generators) 11:26:11 <|amethyst> with your suggestion, the places or rooms could be either vaults or mini-layours 11:26:17 <|amethyst> s/our/out/ 11:26:23 yeah 11:26:31 <|amethyst> and the part about connecting and placing them could be a layout 11:26:48 <|amethyst> so you might have one algorithm that connects them with a Rogue-like grid 11:26:59 <|amethyst> and another than places them scattered throughout a mostly open level 11:27:00 <|amethyst> etc 11:27:04 <|amethyst> s/than/that/ 11:27:58 yeah... i don't know I'd handle disjoint areas though 11:28:18 like I've run into rooms that are only accessible via another level 11:28:22 or a wand of digging 11:29:29 are those spectral vaults in crawl? 11:29:42 s/spectral/special 11:29:44 <|amethyst> Places in the game that are supposed to do that (Orc and Slime) have a special "spotty" flag that changes some of the validation checks and also other things 11:29:44 no, that's just how the caves layout works 11:30:05 huh. 11:30:08 and yeah, the spottiness 11:30:14 <|amethyst> so it's yet more complex interplay of different things 11:30:47 oh crap, the orc mines do that?! I've been doing them wrong then! 11:30:53 <|amethyst> because spottiness is not directly related to the layout, yet it more or less has to be used with those layout 11:31:16 <|amethyst> fsufitch: yeah, you usually have to take upstairs, and sometimes have to dig, to see all of Orc 11:31:24 damn. 11:31:32 sometimes ive had to tele to find stuff its been so far out of the way 11:32:49 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:32:50 <|amethyst> fsufitch: our main level generator code is in dungeon.cc, and layouts in dgn-layouts.cc, dgn-proclayouts.cc, and dat/des/builder/layout*.des 11:33:02 yeah I've been looking at not only doing vertically linked levels, but also horizontally linked ones, so i can have above-ground environments 11:33:34 -!- valtern has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:20 -!- pangaea_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:34:45 -!- Garhauk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:34:46 which is a whole different can of worms that crawl fortunately does not open 11:34:58 <|amethyst> I wouldn't think too much in terms of levels, as for an above-ground environment you want seamless transitions. That said, you shouldn't have to generate the entire overworld in advance, so you need something kind of like levels 11:35:07 I'd actually rather allow arbitrarily-sized grids than that 11:35:18 cool, I'll take a look 11:35:48 and optimize it (with partial loading, say) transparently 11:36:04 and only when it'd actually become infeasible to keep it all in memory at once 11:37:47 oh, unrelated question: it seems that Debian and Ubuntu repos still have linley's crawl as"crawl" 11:37:47 or if it's dcss, it's a very old version 11:37:47 who handles that? 11:37:47 "seamed" transitions work pretty well for guild wars *shrug* 11:38:23 <|amethyst> fsufitch: Debian unstable has DCSS 0.12.3 11:38:27 <|amethyst> stable has 0.10.3 11:38:45 <|amethyst> I think ubuntu is similar 11:39:06 <|amethyst> package name 'crawl' 11:39:31 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:39:40 hmm, how far apart are those? i noticed a LOT of differences 11:39:49 <|amethyst> %git 0.10.3 11:39:49 07kilobyte02 * 0.10.3: Changelog for 0.10.3 10(1 year, 4 months ago, 1 file, 23+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=59e4fa96f5f1 11:39:50 <|amethyst> %git 0.12.3 11:39:51 07kilobyte02 * 0.12.3: Revert accidental submodule changes. 10(12 days ago, 8 files, 8+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1000ab5f67fb 11:40:03 <|amethyst> about 16 months :) 11:40:08 from 10 to 12 is a huge difference, every major version is very noticably different 11:40:17 you guys have been busy :-P 11:41:03 yeah, that makes sense. geez 11:41:15 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:41:30 -!- heteroy__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:46 no wonder kenku aren't yet tengu 11:42:18 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:42:18 -!- Neuromancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:42:20 <|amethyst> %git 95034625 11:42:21 07due02 * 0.10-a0-1735-g9503462: Rename Kenku -> Tengu. 10(1 year, 11 months ago, 59 files, 144+ 144-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=95034625433e 11:42:23 -!- heteroy__ is now known as heteroy 11:43:09 <|amethyst> 0.10 (Debian wheezy) should have tengu, but older versions would not (squeeze has 0.8) 11:43:12 <|amethyst> %git 0.8.0 11:43:12 07kilobyte02 * 0.8.0: Center the headings in the manual (jpt9) 10(2 years, 5 months ago, 1 file, 20+ 20-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3a1e77467d77 11:43:33 <|amethyst> s/Deb/in Deb/ 11:43:37 hard to believe that was only 2.5 years ago 11:43:39 hmm, i forget which i was running 11:43:54 <|amethyst> crawl -version 11:44:22 <|amethyst> oh, sorry, squeeze has 0.7.1... 0.8 is in backports 11:44:25 <|amethyst> %git 0.7.1 11:44:26 07by02 {greensnark} * 0.7.1: Fix markers not being activated on reload. (cherry picked from commit 4730d9a383f2fea31818c9c9220b32e231295229) 10(3 years, 2 months ago, 1 file, 12+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e240f6d8e578 11:44:36 squeeze be oldstable 11:44:48 <|amethyst> yeah 11:45:08 I'm not at my computer right now, unfortunately 11:45:19 we're up to at least wheezy 7.1 by now, possibly wheezy 7.2? 11:45:24 on a tablet with 0.12.2 11:45:52 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:45 okay, so does anyone know any global objects that should not be accessed at all during, for example, level generation? 11:47:06 okay then. so i just need to download trunk :-P 11:47:15 because I made a thing I'd like to test 11:47:29 -!- Ness_ has quit [Client Quit] 11:48:27 -!- Drahbeg is now known as Ladykiller69 11:48:41 -!- fsufitch has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:49:08 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:49:12 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:49:17 -!- fsufitch has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:15 oh that reminds me, where can i report an android bug? 11:50:31 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:55 there are no + or - keys in 0.12.2b 11:50:56 (It's a template class that's supposed to tell memcheck to treat a particular object as inaccessible temporarily) 11:51:32 err... what did i miss when i got disconnected? 11:51:45 hotel wifi sucks 11:52:41 (tell me about it) 11:53:54 -!- axujen has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:54:21 -!- axujen_ has quit [Client Quit] 11:54:31 -!- eith_work has quit [Quit: getting vodka] 11:56:21 -!- axujen has quit [Client Quit] 12:00:13 -!- heteroy_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:52 found it, by don't have time right now 12:02:06 gotta go, talk to you ask later! 12:02:41 I'll try to set up a public info thing about the game i want to make 12:02:59 -!- fsufitch has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:04:13 -!- evablue142 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:05:28 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:55 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:12 -!- broquain1 is now known as broquaint 12:08:29 Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-b1-31-g2fbf6b9 12:10:39 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:17:15 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-161-gf81a4fe (34) 12:29:21 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:34:22 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:03 -!- myrmidette has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:35:37 -!- heteroy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:35:57 -!- CampinSam has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 12:37:06 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:15 !tell MarvinPA Do you think that jumping in on-par with running in terms of power so that it needs to be restricted from *all* randartes, save an unrand? I had thought that +Jump should be more rare than +Blink/+Fly, but would still actually occur on randartes, even if restricted to certain kinds. 12:38:17 gammafunk: OK, I'll let marvinpa know. 12:46:07 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:09 -!- ontoclasm has left ##crawl-dev 12:55:44 -!- oph_work is now known as ophanim 12:56:39 -!- ophanim is now known as oph_work 12:57:47 -!- Pisano2 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:00:13 no clue on power really but if it's too rare i'd suggest just making the boots ego more common 13:00:13 MarvinPA: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 13:00:42 -!- Stupendous has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:14 i just don't really see why it needs to be available in so many different forms, just picking one form seems easier to balance rarity 13:01:52 and the boots ego is thematic, hats and rings and cloaks of jumping not so much 13:04:45 MarvinPA: Yeah, I agree about theme. Looks like flying/running/jumping boots are all equally common 13:05:04 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:09:10 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:00 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:35 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 13:27:41 -!- robotcentaur has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:39 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:35 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:21 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:34:42 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:33 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:48:29 -!- scummos^ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:49:11 -!- Senjai has quit [Changing host] 13:51:45 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:51:57 -!- Morphy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:56:00 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56:51 MarvinPA: If we could allow randarte armour to be generated with egos instead of always using properties, I could let randarte boots have SPARM_JUMPING and actually just remove ARTP_JUMP entirely 13:57:20 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:57:49 MarvinPA: Wiz mode lets you make randart armour this way, but it seems that the randart generation code prefers to only use ARTP attribs 14:13:26 -!- myrmidette has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:13:31 -!- duralumin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16:39 -!- heteroy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:51 -!- scummos^ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:21:22 -!- anidude has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:39 -!- hurdos has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:58 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:36 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:42:38 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:31 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:50:09 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 14:52:00 -!- Kaydis has quit [] 15:02:49 -!- oph_work has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:07:59 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:08:03 -!- robotcentaur has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:10:10 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 15:18:35 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:19:21 -!- frogor_home has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:26 -!- frogor_home is now known as frogor 15:19:30 -!- frogor has quit [Changing host] 15:19:30 -!- frogor has joined ##crawl-dev 15:27:53 -!- Morph_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:28:27 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:02 -!- Feedmeacat has joined ##crawl-dev 15:30:14 i have a bunch of stupid questions if anyone is up for that kind of thing 15:30:22 -!- valtern has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:42 sigh. huge list of people in channel, none actually active. 15:33:10 why don't you ask one 15:33:31 people on irc do not sit in front of their clients 24/7, just ask and wait for people to answer 15:33:38 I probably assumed your first message was meant by way of introduction 15:34:14 what do you mean, aren't you all just waiting for someone to come in to entertain 15:34:38 hehehe 15:34:41 alright, so i'm not a programmer, i just want to start updating the wiki 15:34:43 Feedmeacat: No, it was actually an artefact of my client that I rejoined in here. I tend to only come in when I'm doing OS X builds. 15:35:14 i downloaded intellij and somehow got the repository cloned but now i can't get the source into intellij 15:35:39 all i really want is to be able to look at the source code in some slightly more efficient way than opening it in the browser on gitorious 15:35:40 <|amethyst> Does intellij do C++? 15:35:52 i have no clue man, it was just recommended to me by someone 15:36:02 if you have a better idea please tell me 15:36:09 <|amethyst> what's your OS? 15:36:14 windows 7 15:36:18 *ducks* 15:36:30 <|amethyst> I don't suppose you have Visual Studio? 15:36:31 oh and i'm 64 bit 15:36:33 um 15:36:34 let me see 15:36:39 Feedmeacat: You can get visual studio express. 15:36:42 you don't actually need to check out SVN to do things on the wiki? 15:36:42 It's free. 15:36:47 Supports C++ 15:36:54 And the current source includes a Visual Studio project file. 15:37:03 no, i want to look at the source code because it's the only reliable way to get real information about mechanics 15:37:04 Should just be able to double-click it and all the files get loaded into VS. 15:37:16 Feedmeacat: ah, okay then 15:37:18 ok, what file extension am i looking for 15:37:32 I believe it 15:37:39 it's in crawl-ref/source/windows or something 15:37:41 Let me check 15:37:57 MSVC 15:37:58 <|amethyst> crawl-ref/source/MSVC/crawl-ref.sln 15:38:06 crawl.vcproj 15:38:48 But yeah - free Visual Studio Express here: http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-express-products 15:38:54 ok looks like i do not have that installed 15:38:59 i will grab that, thank you 15:39:18 <|amethyst> Most of us use command-line tools and text editors to do our browsing 15:39:26 <|amethyst> but most of us are Unix folks 15:39:38 You'll specifically want the 'Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop' 15:39:49 http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-express-for-windows-desktop 15:40:17 thanks, i was about to install the wrong thing :| 15:40:30 you can also view the code on the web 15:40:51 yeah but it's really difficult because things reference functions that are in different classes and i can't keep it straight in my head 15:41:08 also i couldn't figure out how to search the whole code base at once 15:41:31 My personal favorite code viewer is Sublime Text 2. Cross-platform (Windows, OS X, Linux) and free to use as perpetual nagware. 15:41:43 haha i have a friend that calls it momware 15:41:50 as in, OKAY MOM 15:42:08 But it does syntax highlighting, so it wouldn't just look flat. 15:42:21 And the search mechanism can go cross-file and does wonderful regular expression. 15:42:38 And there are a billion plugins for it that make it do all sorts of wonderful things. 15:42:46 well we'll see if this tool works for me, if it doesn't i'll try that out next 15:43:06 I don't deal with the Windows build, so I can't tell you how up to date the MSVC project file is. 15:43:11 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:13 great :( 15:43:19 all i want is to make the wiki not suck 15:43:42 oh, anyone here an admin on the chaosforge crawlwiki? 15:43:45 I know that on the XCode side of things for OS X, the XCode project file is out of date - but I'm not inclined to update it (even though I do the OS X build) because I never use XCode to do the build. 15:44:09 is there a way to import the classes and stuff without using the possibly out of date thing 15:44:28 no wiki bigwigs ever come on irc 15:45:36 Feedmeacat: Essentially, the contents of the crawl-ref/source (and not what goes under crawl-ref/source/contrib - those are just helper libraries mostly) are what make up DCSS. 15:45:48 <|amethyst> I wrote the spell list extractor a long time ago, but don't even have an account since the move/reset 15:46:00 Feedmeacat: If your code viewing method of choice can import that folder, you'd probably be good. 15:46:09 ok, i'll try and make it do that 15:46:32 this is frustrating 15:46:43 i can't even imagine why you people would try and write/edit code for fun 15:46:49 lol 15:46:58 oh yeah, and a personal thank you to everyone who comments their code 15:47:10 Yes, I do write code for fun - https://github.com/pudquick 15:47:18 i'd buy you a beer if i could 15:47:28 (Repositories -> Sources for what I actually created myself) 15:47:57 Oh, and various public gists: https://gist.github.com/pudquick 15:48:06 (you may notice a python theme) 15:50:06 -!- namad7 has quit [] 15:53:24 i am so sorry that you're taking this effort to dickwave for someone who literally does not understand what any of this is 15:53:34 :( 15:54:07 i'd show you my tailoring work but you'd be like "it's a t-shirt" and that's pretty much what happens when i look at that 15:55:15 Heh. If talking on IRC required effort, I'm not sure how much of it I'd do. I'm always willing to encourage people that are willing to learn. 15:58:34 Probably this is the point where someone mentions that most of IRC has given up on the wiki being truly reliable or good 15:58:42 if you haven't heard that a doxen times yet 15:59:15 whatever a doxen is 15:59:52 SwissStopwatch: I like to imagine it as some form of cattle with more heads and legs than it knows what to do with. 16:00:03 -!- duralumin_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:13 well that's more than I usually get out of my typos 16:00:46 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:02:02 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:02:10 The other point would be that a lot of the IRC crawl players who try to help other people improve are fairly suspicious of specific mechanical info as a method of doing so 16:02:54 Not that we don't know a lot of them ourselves, but they often seem to get people more confused, and usually whenever someone actually mentions a specific mechanic it's in the context of misunderstanding what it does or how important it is 16:03:20 i think it's spelled dachshund 16:03:20 Which isn't to say that none of them are important, but I suspect the methods of communicating that are difficult in general 16:03:33 a dachshund times 16:03:39 mmm dachshund 16:04:08 yeah, but i'm not really willing to go on hearsay as my first layer of knowledge about what i'm writing about 16:04:09 There used to be a good hot dog place near me that had a dachshund on a bun as their logo. This might be part of why I don't eat a lot of hot dogs these days 16:04:42 i'm not going to update the articles to have specific equations for how things are calculated in most cases, i just want to know what the hell i'm talking about so that when people have very well articulated opinions that are wrong, i'm not just taken along for the ride 16:04:44 Hearsay with nothing to back it up isn't much good either, that's true 16:05:11 yeah, so i just need to be able to read it and take my own notes and then also talk with experienced players and get their feelings about how important x is over y 16:06:46 If you have that all figured out, come up with improvements, and then find a way to actually make some of it stick on the wiki, that'd be quite good, since probably the wiki is a common place for people to look 16:07:04 if someone types in "melee damage" they want to know roughly how melee damage is calculated, so maybe i'll include a detailed equation at the bottom, but at the top it's going to be much more informal, talking about different weapons and how skills and stats interact in a general sense, the kind of thing you'd get out of IRC on a good day 16:07:47 It's just a lot of IRCers ran into a -lot- of resistance when trying to change the wiki before is all 16:08:04 well i'm not an IRCer, maybe that will help? 16:08:05 Possibly some of the people who were willing to fight over that are gone, on both sides 16:08:28 -!- LexAckson has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:32 and i can't imagine that the wiki admins can argue with "i want it to be up to date with the current version, your shit is two versions out of date" 16:08:57 In some sense they can't, but I'm just saying don't be surprised if someone decides to anyway 16:09:00 like, if they want to keep the wiki two versions behind, that's just a basic failure to function 16:09:12 -!- jeffrom has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:12 surely... surely the internet will be reasonable about this... 16:09:19 ;_; i can dream 16:09:21 yes 16:09:42 well the nice thing about wikis is that you can always just start your own wiki 16:09:44 with hookers and blow 16:09:48 It'd be quite good if one of the common sources about crawl gameplay advice actually decided to be -right- about things 16:09:54 aahaaha i know right 16:10:35 I think probably whenever people half-seriously discussed doing something about it, "make our own wiki" was probably the best option, but hosting that can obviously be a pain 16:11:04 <|amethyst> hosting isn't a problem, I could do that. Adminning it is 16:11:51 yeah, that's the problem 16:11:54 yes I guess that's the real sticking point. There's a sort of damned either way about the wiki model 16:12:00 i can write my ass off but i can't push the buttons right 16:12:15 if it's open, anyone can edit it, and a lot of people who would edit it would also edit it in an unhelpful way 16:12:32 maybe we could get a current wiki admin to defect to the new improved one 16:12:34 if it's closed, it will tend to get out of date unless the access list has a lot of people who are very careful 16:12:35 <|amethyst> ignoring that, spam 16:13:09 and yes spam is a problem on tavern and every forum I've seen, although possibly a closed model doesn't have -that- specific issue 16:14:25 the problem is, there's plenty of people willing to write as long as other people take care of the other things 16:14:51 but there aren't many people who are sitting there thinking "wow i wish i had a wiki to administrate and moderate, as long as other people took care of the writing and stuff" 16:15:11 even though there *are* people that program for fun so you never know 16:15:16 That's somewhat true, but I think possibly the real question is "are there enough writers to keep things up to date on a closed wiki" 16:15:19 there is really no accounting for taste 16:15:29 even if there -was- good administration in place 16:15:31 eh, i mean, it doesn't have to be perfect... 16:15:44 i mean we've gotten along with an out of date wiki since .13 came out months ago, right 16:15:52 <|amethyst> err 16:15:53 Obviously wiki maintenance is probably less fun for most people than designing a game 16:15:54 <|amethyst> 0.13 isn't out yet 16:16:02 i thought trunk was on .14 16:16:04 tentatively should be out in a week or so 16:16:08 <|amethyst> 0.13 is in beta 16:16:14 <|amethyst> release is a week from today 16:16:22 so what is trunk 16:16:27 <|amethyst> 0.14 is trunk 16:16:29 NOTHING MAKES SENSE AAAA 16:16:30 crawl's dev cycle is confusing, I constantly forget that trunk is supposed to be alpha 16:16:35 but that's what it is 16:16:36 yeah, it works so well 16:16:38 damn. 16:16:51 <|amethyst> 0.13-b1 is a "release candidate" if you prefer that terminology 16:16:57 alpha never ends, beta is a few weeks, and then stable is gone as soon as it comes and the tournament ends 16:17:07 how do they decide it's ready, voting? 16:17:25 oh, so the beta is so people can practice for the tournament? 16:17:35 well no 16:17:43 -!- BasementCat has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:17:50 there are a reasonable number of who play stable I think, just not online 16:17:52 beta is to bugcheck alpha 16:17:53 <|amethyst> the beta is so that we can add new features to trunk without breaking the upcoming release 16:18:08 <|amethyst> while still applying bugfixes 16:18:22 but it's okay to break it as long as it gets fixed before release 16:18:39 <|amethyst> we try not to break the beta 16:18:49 ok, so what is the alpha then 16:18:55 trunk 16:19:02 okay so what is the "most current" version 16:19:32 good question 16:19:34 or i guess what i'm asking is, what is the most current and what does most current mean :( 16:19:51 and also which version should the wiki be on 16:20:01 <|amethyst> the wiki should probably cover the stable release 16:20:11 so, it's not out of date for the most part 16:20:11 <|amethyst> meaning 0.12 now and 0.13 in a week 16:20:25 and really what i'm trying to do is start editing the wiki ahead of release 16:20:29 even if "most" people online play trunk, that's probably not true for offline and keeping up to date for alpha would be insane 16:20:33 <|amethyst> which makes sense I think 16:20:47 <|amethyst> but I don't know how the wiki admins prefer to deal with that 16:20:55