00:00:43 -!- RichardSimmons has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:01:02 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:05 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2305-ge00d11d (34) 00:01:22 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 00:01:24 minmay_sea_of_fire, that's the vault I was thinking of 00:02:51 dis_grunt too 00:05:48 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2305-ge00d11d (34) 00:07:07 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:09:36 -!- Wahaha has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:11:17 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:11:36 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:13:17 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:43 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:04 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16:08 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:18:50 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:21:31 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:25:15 -!- hyperbolic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:57 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27:39 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 00:28:35 03bh 07* 0.13-a0-2306-g02a3e51: Remove monster Gargoyle wings. Make them cling. 10(31 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=02a3e516c11f 00:28:35 03bh 07* 0.13-a0-2307-gd96d039: Prevent Trampling of Monster Gargoyles! 10(85 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d96d039ee5e2 00:29:02 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:29:16 <|amethyst> what about resists and MH_NATURAL? 00:29:50 hm, is the gargoyle player race supposed to be 100% trample resistant or is this a monster "perk" 00:29:57 sorry -- I'm doing tiny changes 00:30:05 03bh 07* 0.13-a0-2308-g4050f98: Remove reference to gargoyle wings. 10(40 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4050f98598dd 00:30:07 SwissStopwatch: yes, it's 100% resistant 00:30:32 I definitely got trampled off some stairs yesterday 00:30:39 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 00:30:41 either that or I'm delusional or something 00:31:02 or is moving upstairs an exception? 00:31:06 SwissStopwatch: hrmph. do you know of a nearby milestone? 00:31:13 umm, lemme see 00:31:43 I didn't actually have any uniques in lair so I don't think there are any, it was somewhere in the middle 00:31:59 maybe in lieu of that I can wizmode offline to see if I'm making stuff up or not 00:32:05 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:32:43 |amethyst: it seems weird to make monster gargoyles poisonable 00:33:59 mm yes 00:34:06 elephant just trampled me off while going up 00:34:22 that's a bug 00:34:27 then again it also just trampled me while I was standing still 00:34:37 although it took a lot of tries 00:34:45 maybe it's 90%? 00:34:50 that's possible 00:34:51 Are you sure you're playing a gargoyle? 00:34:54 yes 00:34:58 I'll check the source as soon as I finish compiling 00:36:50 yeah, melee_attack.cc:5309, 90% resistance 00:37:16 I guess whether that's a bug or not isn't up to me, heh 00:37:51 -!- Twinge has quit [] 00:40:39 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:41:17 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:10 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2309-gaad995f: Don't message about offscreen Twisted Resurrection. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 40+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=aad995f91ee2 00:44:50 03bh 07* 0.13-a0-2310-g959fb16: Fixup Gargoyle monster stats 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=959fb166256f 00:46:10 -!- hyperbolic is now known as elliptic 00:46:29 oh. The only effect of artificial is that Yred hates 'em 00:46:31 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:45 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:02:30 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:42 -!- Oregano has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:47 Oregano: settle on a nick! 01:05:24 bh: Connection keeps shitting out and Thyme is occupied when I come back. 01:05:29 -!- Oregano is now known as Thyme 01:05:35 ah 01:06:29 there's nothing wrong with a varied spice rack, helps with cooking 01:06:58 I don't think I own oregano 01:07:50 not one I use a lot, I suppose 01:08:10 -!- dupo has quit [] 01:08:27 Thyme: on the heels on my fedhas win, I've been trying to fedhas The Pits 01:09:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:11:26 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:11:50 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:14 Is it intentional that high-power invis glows you with some regularity? 01:12:23 -!- haqe17 has quit [Quit: NNnNNnnNnN] 01:17:18 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:19:52 !tell bh Player gargoyles are nonliving; be consistent! 01:19:53 Grunt: OK, I'll let bh know. 01:21:22 -!- pc_bios is now known as tgs3 01:30:30 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:41:04 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:42:18 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:42:39 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:47 -!- six40sword has quit [Quit: ThrashIRC v2.9 sic populo comunicated] 01:42:47 -!- six40sword_ is now known as six40sword 01:45:26 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:26 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:45:36 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:23 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [] 01:54:09 -!- yoru has quit [Client Quit] 01:55:46 -!- dcss87901 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:08 -!- Sonder has quit [Quit: Lдmnar] 01:57:58 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:59 -!- dcss54992 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:43 -!- twb has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:02:57 -!- six40sword has quit [Quit: six40sword] 02:03:26 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:16 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:07:08 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:15:17 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:17:12 -!- Emp__ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:19:18 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:45 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 02:43:27 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:45 -!- Melum has quit [Quit: Was eaten by a grue.] 02:45:12 -!- dcss31115 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:47:27 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:50:15 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:39 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:54:16 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:14 -!- Venerax has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:07:13 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:10 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 03:09:47 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:21:32 -!- tesudzi has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:25:41 -!- _D_ has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:49 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:50 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:33:10 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:34:43 -!- _D_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:35:42 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:31 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:48:16 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55:46 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:57:59 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:49 -!- Villadelfia has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:12:53 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:53 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 04:12:54 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious. 04:13:50 -!- djinni_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:50 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:50 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:50 -!- Kintak has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:50 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:50 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:38 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:47 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:16:01 -!- Slowpoke_Man has joined ##crawl-dev 04:17:25 -!- Slowpoke_Man has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:30:02 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:31:56 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:33 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 04:48:14 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:57:00 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:57:17 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:03:59 -!- arttle has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:05:46 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:08:05 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:11:21 -!- Sysice has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:11:36 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D] 05:11:53 -!- dagonfive1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:14:16 -!- zardo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:19:59 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:19 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:23:19 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 05:31:57 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:35:06 -!- Duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35:08 -!- Villadelfia has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:39:45 -!- Villadelfia has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:54 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:48:06 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:37 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:58:58 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 05:59:24 -!- Duralumin_ has quit [Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)] 06:08:19 -!- Guest22640 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:14:03 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:16:31 -!- yuastnav has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:21:41 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:25:01 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:21 -!- Ystah has quit [] 06:31:50 |amethyst: there is a license problem with monster: you're using it illegally. To comply, you'd have to include a way to send sources, and to spam every user with that offer 06:32:07 |amethyst: because Napkin decided to use AGPL :/ 06:36:10 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 06:44:12 blд 06:44:50 that's your opinion, that it has to be an automated way, kilobyte ;-P 06:45:26 and including the license file or a link to it is in my opinion enough - instead of spamming 06:45:45 -!- Sizzell has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:48:53 Napkin: the offer has to be not only prominent, but also given to every user 06:49:38 which was meant to be included as extra spam on webpages where it's not much of a burden 06:50:19 let's see if we need to fight it through, ok? 06:50:27 no need to panic yet 06:51:32 also, every interactive interface (such as @??) needs to provide a way to view a copy of the license 06:51:48 and that there's no warranty 06:54:45 every year ;) 06:54:57 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57:02 -!- dosman711` is now known as dosman711 06:57:39 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:58:15 -!- LoremIpsum has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:06 -!- leStahL has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:27 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:18:31 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:19:45 -!- grathtarg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:05 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:33 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:56:50 -!- leStahL has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:59:20 -!- adityarajbhatt has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 08:01:20 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04:57 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:35 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:09:25 -!- CKyle has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:10:31 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:20:55 -!- kryft has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:22:30 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:06 -!- Sizzell has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:25:28 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 08:28:36 -!- Solace has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:35:34 -!- ground4_ is now known as ground4 08:36:06 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:11 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:16 -!- CKyle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:28 -!- Duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:46:27 <|amethyst> kilobyte: actually 08:46:32 <|amethyst> d) If the work has interactive user interfaces, each must display Appropriate Legal Notices; however, if the Program has interactive interfaces that do not display Appropriate Legal Notices, your work need not make them do so. 08:46:47 <|amethyst> kilobyte: so since Napkin left them out... 08:47:12 <|amethyst> kilobyte: oh, that's only for distributing the source 08:48:38 wat 08:48:48 "The program must have X, but if the program does not have X, it's okay to leave it like that"?? 08:49:10 <|amethyst> elliott: that's the section on distributing modified source 08:49:28 section 13 08:49:34 <|amethyst> yeah 08:49:51 -!- flowsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:50:18 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 08:51:42 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 08:52:16 !messages 08:52:20 No messages for TZer0. 08:52:57 So, anything interesting happening? 08:53:10 Do the wellsprings have a sprite yet? 08:53:32 section 9 (and the copyright law) make it toothless, too, unless you happen to also distribute a modified version 08:57:11 <|amethyst> Napkin: if the intent is merely that the source, rather than the interactive UI, has to include the link, why not use the GPL instead of AGPL? 09:03:01 there is more difference 09:03:56 TZer0: not yet 09:04:02 -!- Vizer_ is now known as Vizer 09:04:08 i've been trying to think of a cool design for our elementals 09:04:17 and then the wellspring will be based off of that 09:04:19 GPL: you take monster and make @? awesome. nothing I could do to make you share the changes with all of us others to make ours better 09:05:36 Napkin: AGPL doesn't force sharing, either 09:05:41 it does 09:05:49 Napkin: it merely prohibits distribution 09:06:02 it doesn't 09:06:08 <|amethyst> it only forces sharing if you make it available over a network service 09:06:23 if you wouldn't then nobody would care anyways 09:06:24 Napkin: you can choose: use the software for any purpose and not distribute _or_ accept severe use restrictions for the permission to distribute 09:06:37 <|amethyst> Napkin: and the part that does that is the part that you just said we don't have to satisfy 09:07:12 Napkin: with a further caveat that once you distribute it in any way you lose the right for arbitrary use 09:07:40 * elliott interpreted Napkin as interpreting the license so that if you expose a modified monster over the network you have to provide source on request 09:07:43 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 09:07:49 (ie, distribution means you agree to be bound by the use restrictions) 09:07:59 which is the case, elliott 09:08:05 elliott: you also need to OFFER it to every user 09:08:27 elliott: ie, if I type "@??wild haggis", I need to receive such offer 09:08:28 anyways, kilobyte has always argued about this ideology, from day one 09:09:07 <|amethyst> The ideology of "we must follow copyright licenses to the letter"? 09:09:21 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:19 <|amethyst> I'll remove the notice once I hear from greensnark and due as well, since their names are also in the copyright 09:10:41 ridiculous 09:10:52 let's see what greensna1k has to say :) 09:11:05 you, and only you, can use monster this way, as copyright doesn't restrict the original author. On the other hand, |amethyst is not allowed to use monster in its current form because he makes copies of the code available. 09:11:09 don't you two have better things to do? 09:11:23 :p 09:11:50 Feierabend ;) 09:14:55 -!- greensna1k is now known as greensnark 09:15:15 Someone mentioned a sna1k? 09:16:08 Since the monster info thing is essentially a Crawl variant, I'd say make it GPL 09:16:53 <|amethyst> AGPL does has an exception for linking with GPL3 09:17:23 In any case, I'm totally in the screw-the-lawyers category 09:18:01 since Crawl's relicense, it's redistributable as AGPL 3 is compatible with GPL 2+ 09:18:15 but not really usable from an IRC bot 09:19:23 -!- leStahL has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:19:27 <|amethyst> Napkin: as a practical issue, how are users supposed to find my source 09:19:34 <|amethyst> Napkin: they have to know to query something like 09:19:36 <|amethyst> ??monster[4] 09:20:06 [devil's advocate]: alternate solutions: appending "(license: @??license)" to every query, sending any first-time user a /msg 09:20:21 -!- Grunt has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:20:36 -!- Grunt has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:08 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:23:45 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:31 507 users registered on CLAN and 22 users playing right now 09:24:38 Seems that it is working just great :) 09:25:21 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:25:58 greensnark: +1000 09:25:59 monsters[4/5]: The most up-to-date code for @?? and @? can be found at http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=monster-trunk.git , or clone from http://s-z.org/neil/git/monster-trunk.git , branch 'bleeding-edge-crawl'. 09:27:22 |amethyst: so you'd just have to make this a "prominent offer" somehow (guessing a learndb entry without a pointer can't really be argued to be one) 09:29:03 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 09:29:03 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 09:29:03 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious. 09:29:04 <|amethyst> %help 09:30:11 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:11 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 09:30:12 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious. 09:30:15 <|amethyst> %help 09:30:15 http://s-z.org/neil/git/cheibriados.git http://s-z.org/neil/git/monster-trunk.git git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 09:30:36 <|amethyst> prominent enough? :) 09:30:40 why did that go to ##crawl too 09:30:47 <|amethyst> gah 09:30:50 <|amethyst> too prominent :) 09:31:02 imo it should just spam those URLs say every 5 minutes 09:31:09 join every channel on freenode, get the word out 09:31:10 elliott: :p 09:31:30 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:52 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:52 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 09:32:53 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious. 09:33:11 <|amethyst> %help 09:33:11 http://s-z.org/neil/git/cheibriados.git http://s-z.org/neil/git/monster-trunk.git git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 09:33:15 <|amethyst> there we go 09:34:11 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:42:58 I mailed due and sorear. 09:43:33 moving on: looks like EVERY popular terminal other than linux console supports 256 colours nowadays 09:43:57 (Does this include whatever Windows provides these days?) 09:44:00 I kind of recall rxvt failing to do so a couple of years ago 09:44:34 Grunt: Windows doesn't offer any, at least none capable of interpreting vt100 codes 09:45:07 you're right, I forgot about Crawl's win32 console mode 09:45:24 * Grunt grumbles, shakes fist at nobody in particular. 09:45:42 <|amethyst> screen might be a little problematic, since IIRC you have to have a correct TERM before starting screen 09:46:05 |amethyst: good point, thanks for shattering my hopes :p 09:46:14 <|amethyst> kilobyte: oh, I think we should use it 09:46:22 <|amethyst> kilobyte: just can't do so unconditionally :( 09:46:51 <|amethyst> s/use/support/ 09:46:58 the merge window for Linux 3.11 for Workgroups isn't over yet, right? 09:47:29 apparently not yet 09:47:36 <|amethyst> would they accept a 256-colour terminal? 09:48:04 <|amethyst> seems like that's the kind of thing you'd really want to move to userspace 09:50:23 -!- zammy_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:54:11 -!- adityarajbhatt has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 09:55:10 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:15 support it, probably not; properly ignore, certainly 09:55:55 -!- radinms has quit [] 09:56:42 the problem is in the standard which invented them (ITU T.416) completely disregarding existing rules, like every SGR command gracefully degrading when not supported 09:57:49 actually, I think it would be ok to find the closest match on kernel's side 09:58:48 (the kernel is deeply hardcoded for the CGA/VGA model of 8*16 colours, even on other hardware) 09:59:26 another problem: DGL 09:59:54 if someone plays in 256 colours, 16 colour viewers would need have it converted 10:01:32 hrm, perhaps we should add the support to the kernel, and skip changing Crawl until people get new kernels? 10:01:46 at least Windows, with putty/etc, is covered 10:02:58 there are indeed people who want to move linux's virtual terminals into userspace 10:03:10 -!- scummos has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:03:55 Zaba: those get shouted at loudly, as the console is a vital rescue tool 10:04:02 that should get work reliably 10:04:18 don't tell *me* that :P 10:04:26 I heard reasonable proposals, though, to have both 10:04:39 yeah, I don't suspect you of being that crazy :) 10:04:57 -!- Nivim has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:05:14 I generally like the idea of not having crazy legacy stuff in the kernel, but sometimes the practical implications take precedence 10:05:20 (Crawl devs aren't crazy??) 10:06:00 -!- cbus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:09 even os x can start in text mode 10:12:16 -!- imantor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:43 -!- dcss91392 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:25:24 -!- scummos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:00 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:26:36 Grunt: there's a difference between being insane and having obviously bad _technical_ ideas 10:27:53 Crawl's devteam is only mildly insane, but in general OSS projects are full of pretty extreme cases 10:31:23 -!- tJener has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:39:02 and I haven't done crawl development in a looong time 10:39:07 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:17 mostly because I've ran out of computers that can compile it in acceptable time :P 10:40:38 those that could do that and serve as a comfortable development environment, that is 10:45:56 mumra_: is your post in the curses thread about the wiki thing? 10:46:48 mumra_: i dont find a curse of greed anywhere in that thread or on the linked wiki page 10:47:11 mumra_: oh wait, i found it on page 2 10:48:03 -!- dcss88316 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:58:02 -!- cbus has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:58:04 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:59:42 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Iceweasel 22.0/20130626043228]] 11:04:13 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:17:01 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:17:41 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:18:44 -!- mason--- has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:18:48 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18:54 -!- Tene has quit [Changing host] 11:29:50 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:57 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 11:32:23 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:32:27 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 11:51:46 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:01 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:53 -!- kronusdark has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:08 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:33 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:05:19 -!- cbus has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:06:51 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2310-g959fb16 (34) 12:11:08 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:13:00 -!- cbus_ has quit [Quit: reboot] 12:18:25 -!- dcss9792 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:20:25 theclanless the Ticktocktomancer (L24 NaFi) (Forest:5) 12:25:19 -!- inpho has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:33:35 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:33:36 -!- LogicNinja has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:34:35 -!- NaWz has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:38:54 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:47 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:40:17 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:40:20 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:08 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:45:15 kraphead the Cleaver (L22 VpSk) (Vaults:2) 12:46:04 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 12:49:19 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:50:01 -!- dcss32631 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:50:15 !lm * crash -log 12:50:16 5133. kraphead, XL22 VpSk, T:80009 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/kraphead/crash-kraphead-20130709-174515.txt 12:51:38 bh's fault, I bet. 12:51:44 %git HEAD 12:51:44 07bh * 0.13-a0-2310-g959fb16: Fixup Gargoyle monster stats 10(12 hours ago, 1 file, 6+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=959fb166256f 12:51:51 %git HEAD^^^ 12:51:51 07bh * 0.13-a0-2307-gd96d039: Prevent Trampling of Monster Gargoyles! 10(12 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d96d039ee5e2 12:52:48 Ah, that seems simple 12:52:54 def_monster is null if it's not a monster 12:53:09 So I guess it always crashes now whenever a player gets trampled 12:53:36 I was curious why I couldn't see that bit of code on my end for a minute, but I forgot I'm not actually on master at the moment >.> 12:54:14 fr remove claws from monster gargoyles 12:54:48 Incidentally, I suspect monster gargoyles losing flight plays badly with some vaults that use them at the moment 12:54:56 (Not that gargolyes are especially notable in those vaults, but still) 12:55:30 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 12:56:57 Like, I think some can actually place them on lava 12:59:15 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:00:20 And certainly quite a few USE them around seas of lava, where they will suddenly be unable to pursue the player 13:00:36 -!- scummos_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:20 Grunt: In any case, were you squashing that or should I? :P 13:12:38 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:45 I'll take the silence for the latter 13:17:00 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2311-ga57ec2b: Don't crash when the player is trampled 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a57ec2b243f6 13:17:00 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-2312-gffa3a47: Make player gargoyle trample resistance 100% 10(89 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ffa3a4702f16 13:17:15 yes, sea_of_fire is probably broken at least 13:17:34 i would still removing clinging as a player mechanic instead of adding it to more things 13:17:53 -!- Xenobreeder|2 is now known as Xenobreeder 13:17:54 I don't actually see a balance issue with letting player gargoyles fly, to be honest 13:17:54 since it's awkward and complicated and quickly obsoleted 13:18:17 it would be much better than clinging at least, yeah 13:18:25 Exavian2 the Bludgeoner (L13 MiAK) (Lair:7) 13:18:38 (I probably wouldn't mind if they didn't and monster ones still did, either, but I don't really see any harm in them flying 13:19:16 -!- dcss77493 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19:50 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2312-gffa3a47 (34) 13:21:37 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2312-gffa3a47 (34) 13:22:35 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:56 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:09 After bh's change to the monster gargoyle holinesses, players and monsters still aren't really any more unified 13:24:36 Now the monsters are just MORE living than the player ones, instead of less 13:25:04 oh what they're natural now??? 13:25:31 yeah that sort of makes no sense at all 13:25:51 Well, I think the IDEA was that both player and monster gargoyles would be what statue form is 13:25:59 But currently neither of them is, and both are something different 13:26:14 Now they're just a DIFFERENT something different 13:26:23 can't we just put monster gargoyles back to how they were originally and remove player clinging 13:26:45 and leave the species and the monster completely independent until player gargoyles are a somewhat finshed/more interesting thing? 13:27:09 Well, I think the only change any of this would acctually necessitate to monster gargoyles is that they become vulnerable to torment 13:27:13 Which doesn't really matter 13:27:28 well they do show up a lot in hell but yes that still doesn't matter since they're not much of a threat there 13:27:59 I had planned (before player gargoyles showed up) to buff them in a couple of ways, but that got somewhat sidelined 13:28:07 But what's going on that the moment is a bit messy :P 13:28:25 well i think that the current attempts for symmetry are just pretty much outright bad, yeah 13:28:46 They would be only half-vulnerable to torment, like statue form is, I would say 13:28:56 the first step should really just be for player gargoyles to be an interesting thing 13:29:02 which i do not think they currently are 13:29:03 Since I think it is probably good for player gargoyles at least to be some thing that makes sense 13:29:13 As opposed to living in some ways and nonliving in other ways 13:29:20 At least people know what statue form is 13:29:31 Mechanically, I mean 13:29:34 yeah 13:29:51 You can't LRD player gargoyles currently, despite them supposedly being made of stone 13:30:14 So basically I don't really know what they are :P 13:30:31 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:31:04 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 13:31:24 I had been tinkering with other stuff, but maybe I should put that aside for the time-being and try to make gargolyes better 13:32:05 clearly rename them to grotesks so nobody cares about symmetry, remove clinging, let them petrify themselves, and then remove them all together. it'll be like going back in time 13:32:36 Well, I'd rather give an honest try at improving them before cutting them 13:33:09 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:33:19 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:33:21 The defensive stone merge idea sounded to me like it had actual potential, along with apt adjustments, livingness that makes sense, a few other things... 13:34:40 -!- kronusdark has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 13:34:42 well i have a commit ready that removes player clinging that i'm more than happy to push for a start! 13:34:54 Haha. I liked it on spider form though T.T 13:34:57 I wonder if I am the only one 13:35:43 it just seems like extra complication for very little gain to me 13:36:14 It is true that it rarely does much, but it is fun when it does. I know it was sort of complicated to IMPLEMENT, but does it actually cause ongoing maintenance problems? 13:37:48 well it still has a bunch of open bugs i think 13:37:59 Oh, haha, really? 13:38:29 In any case, I won't oppose its removal with any zeal 13:38:41 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5328 this one i'm pretty sure still exists at least, not sure about the others since they're a bit older 13:38:43 -!- floatboth has quit [Quit: floatboth] 13:39:26 <|amethyst> Is that one really a clinging bug? 13:39:36 <|amethyst> "Update on the first part of the report: I was flying." 13:39:39 cjo the Infernalist (L27 DrFE) (Zot:5) 13:39:48 <|amethyst> !lm cjo crash -log 13:39:49 1. cjo, XL27 GrEE, T:130519 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/cjo/crash-cjo-20130629-043121.txt 13:39:53 oh right trampling just does that anyway when you're flying, yeah 13:40:19 <|amethyst> !lm cjo crash -log 13:40:20 2. cjo, XL27 DrFE, T:173610 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/cjo/crash-cjo-20130709-183938.txt 13:40:47 <|amethyst> oh, that's the same one that was just fixed 13:43:13 i found several clinging bugs just messing around in wizmode with rwbarton 13:43:16 fairly recently 13:43:20 i think some of htem were already reported though 13:45:06 -!- Guest62734 is now known as SwissStopwatch 13:45:14 As for player gargolyes, I am sort of partial to making them a low hp race with good natural AC. It seems that being made out of stone would normally imply some kind of AC bonus (which they don't have) and it feels to me like good AC + low hp is something not really represented on other races 13:45:35 (Which incidentally is kind of how the monsters are, but that is ancilary) 13:48:46 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:49:49 -!- dcss12038 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:51:21 Sizz the Peltast (L21 MiFi) (D:20) 13:51:49 <|amethyst> and the same 13:52:48 -!- Duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:29 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:41 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzвЂ¦] 14:01:13 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:05:57 Sky2 the Thaumaturge (L13 HuWz) (Lair:8) 14:09:09 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:09:21 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:18:04 -!- Ragnor has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:20:33 -!- dcss54986 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:21:08 The low HP races also all tend to be better at dodging, but then again Crawl is just biased against Armour apts-wise 14:21:44 I suppose that's a niche but I wonder how interesting it really is if they're only good at melee and earth 14:22:02 <|amethyst> low HP and flying both make them more like tengu 14:22:21 <|amethyst> though I guess that was more of an issue when they had higher Cj 14:22:33 and tengu are sort of okay at armour, being that they have a good apt but bad equip slots 14:23:06 "like tengu" isn't much of a compliment somehow 14:24:01 I kind of feel like Gargoyle and Djinn both have spent their time being a lot like Tengu 14:27:28 -!- minqmay is now known as minmay 14:27:32 -!- minmay is now known as minimay 14:27:38 -!- minimay is now known as minqimay 14:27:46 -!- minqimay is now known as minqmay 14:28:14 Although maybe that's not that bad since Tengu is basically "melee/conj hybrid but bad" 14:29:26 Is anyone doing something intensive on CAO? 14:29:44 -!- nooodl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:58 Huh, looks like it's just the scoring scripts. 14:32:12 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:17 -!- yogaFLAME has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:34 -!- santiago__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:17 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:07 |amethyst: like people used to, |amethyst "hey, cool thingy, i want to run one too, where's the source?" 14:46:25 <|amethyst> Napkin: I found an out anyway 14:46:35 <|amethyst> Napkin: "your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) ..." 14:46:46 <|amethyst> Napkin: guess what monster doesn't do on its own :) 14:46:51 there was no need to 14:46:54 great :) 14:47:00 <|amethyst> Napkin: I did add the links to 14:47:01 <|amethyst> %help 14:47:01 http://s-z.org/neil/git/cheibriados.git http://s-z.org/neil/git/monster-trunk.git git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 14:47:20 very good 14:47:24 |amethyst: isn't Cheibriados a derivative work of monster under many interpretations? 14:47:34 people will ask or be pointed nevertheless ;) 14:49:30 -!- dcss72882 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:51:57 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:52:43 <|amethyst> elliott: I think any such interpretation of 'derivative work' is over-broad 14:53:06 |amethyst: well, it seems out of keeping with the spirit of the AGPL that you can just proxy it 14:53:07 <|amethyst> elliott: particularly since it would work just as well with any program named "monster-trunk" 14:53:18 for instance, turning a web application into one that works as a command-line CGI 14:53:21 and then hooking a web server up to that 14:53:31 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:39 the web application could be AGPL-licensed, but suddenly you could argue it wouldn't be "offered over the network" anymore 14:53:54 <|amethyst> that wouldn't make the web server a derivative work, though 14:54:45 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:56:30 -!- boatman has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:56:46 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:21 well, OK 14:57:25 <|amethyst> the CGI would be, and I think it's a lot harder to argue that a CGI isn't expected to have "users interacting with it remotely through a computer network"... it does seem kind of against the spirit of the AGPL 14:57:43 IIRC courts have said "it doesn't matter how you're linking technologically, it's about the spirit of the combined thing" 14:57:46 but I may be misremembering 14:57:56 I think by that interpretation Cheibriados wouldn't be able to get out of it through that loophole 15:01:35 -!- GuraKKa has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:35 -!- eith has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:35 -!- agentgt has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- wh1te has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- hart_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- Adder_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- tensorpudding has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- odiv has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- twzt_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- ChongLi has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- mee has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:36 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:43 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 15:03:16 -!- Sysice has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:05:52 -!- Sabaki has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:05:55 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:06:39 -!- Nivim has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:41 -!- wh1te has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:42 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:42 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 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[*.net *.split] 15:38:40 -!- wh1te has quit [*.net *.split] 15:38:40 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 15:38:40 -!- twzt_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:38:40 -!- ChongLi has quit [*.net *.split] 15:38:40 -!- mee has quit [*.net *.split] 15:38:40 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 15:40:28 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:43 -!- wh1te has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:44 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:55 -!- sprort has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:43:16 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:56:53 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 15:59:09 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:01:28 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 16:03:26 -!- orionstein is now known as orionstein_away 16:06:45 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:14 my stupid idea for gargoyles was that they should have two modes, one when next to a wall and the other when not 16:09:14 so e.g. if you fight in a corridor you're locked into the wall mode 16:09:26 whereas fighting in the open does something else 16:09:44 but probably it'd encourage kiting to whichever place you wanted to be in 16:10:33 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:10:53 Well, that defensive wall merge idea suggested earlier is kind of like this, but I think may be better in practice 16:11:08 Apparently you can make two spectral weapons by casting on stairs, going to the other level, casting, and going back 16:11:13 In that you step into a wall, get various bonuses while there (but -tele and can't move) and stepping out of it again is very slow 16:11:32 So that it's a defensive trade-off and not something you'd want to do all the time 16:11:37 Since you'd kind of committing to not leaving 16:11:39 And maybe even more if you keep them from following you 16:12:11 Battlesphere just dissipates when you leave the level. I guess spectral weapon doesn't 16:12:17 Well, if it doesn't come with you, I mean 16:12:22 Well you could try the idea out. 16:12:28 Which I guess is what spectral weapon should do 16:12:34 It's not like we aren't somewhat used to gargoyles constantly being tweaked on. 16:12:40 Bloax: I plan to, in fact 16:12:40 DracoOmega: isn't it intended to be able to have only one? 16:12:51 Alright then. 16:13:03 joosa: Yes. But I mean allow the weapon to come with you across the stairs, but if you leave the level without it coming along, just kill the summon 16:13:07 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13:08 joosa: Which is how battlesphere works 16:13:14 DracoOmega: ah, right 16:13:42 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 16:13:46 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzвЂ¦] 16:14:48 (I was watching bunny play on cszo) 16:16:14 -!- dcss94893 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:56 someone is writing a Gamasutra article about crawl: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8599 16:18:02 !seen dpeg 16:18:02 I last saw dpeg at Sat Jul 6 21:05:56 2013 UTC (3d 12m 6s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: Lost terminal'. 16:18:53 -!- tesudzi has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:19:23 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:31 wow, nethack is from 1987? dang 16:19:37 that's as old as i am :/ 16:20:43 DracoOmega: someone just reinvented nomes 16:20:58 st_: Well, you weren't supposed to be allow to step THROUGH walls 16:21:14 Or walk along inside them 16:22:38 -!- steve2 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:23:14 -!- archaeo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:23:40 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:24:12 also maybe it would have been a good idea to think about what the race should be before implementing it, just saying 16:24:35 I agree, but that wasn't my doing in the first place 16:24:51 I'm not blaming you 16:24:57 I still think I can make something interesting out of this, though 16:25:05 Or at least, I will make the attempt, and then we can see 16:25:29 DracoOmega: I applaud the xp changes, it's been several years too long 16:25:56 what st_ said, I was going to compliment you for reducing xp but I forgot :p 16:26:08 Haha, thanks. I do hope it accomplishes some of what I was aiming for it to. 16:26:19 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:26:26 my prediction is that it will not be enough but will be better than nothing 16:26:31 Perhaps 16:28:31 It does make a pretty noticable difference to end skill levels for a 3-rune game, at least from the trials I ran 16:29:07 yes but if you go back in time to before xp inflation and compare then 16:29:14 especially, before victory dancing removal 16:29:22 Well, it's hard to tell the impact of victory dancing 16:29:45 Well, and also skill xp costs have been changed around that time, too 16:29:51 I was going to use my GrWn game to see how the change felt to me but I'm realizing a problem with this 16:30:04 And what's that? 16:30:14 Namely that the apts being bad at every skill I want to train is going to skew how it seems to me 16:30:23 Ha. That is also true, I guess 16:30:42 But hey, maybe 'apts don't matter' becomes less true? 16:30:59 well "apts don't matter" was never true 16:31:04 I know that 16:31:10 I just meant less-so :P 16:31:13 People still said it 16:31:23 some of them don't and still won't regardless of how bad they are though 16:31:28 What I think a lot of them meant though was mostly 'there's so much xp that you'll do fine even with bad apts' 16:31:42 right 16:32:06 This might possibly restrict certain build options on characters, I guess 16:32:34 But like, as some really crude numbers, before the change a demonspawn fire elementalist could, without doing extended, max both fire and conjurations and have 20-ish in multiple other skills 16:32:51 And now you basically can't max both of those even without several other high skills 16:32:55 I think victory dancing was probably a massive xp buff 16:32:57 yeah, I'm just starting to hit the point where your changes are kicking in 16:33:04 er 16:33:05 removal 16:33:17 of course I didn't play it at the time but playing old versions with it in retrospect skills seem to go up glacially in comparison 16:33:20 It was a buff, but I am not sure that it was THAT huge, at least for some skills 16:33:27 I also don't have a great perspective on pre-inflation 16:33:28 well 16:33:34 Like, the ones that you could dance effectively 16:33:40 if you actually did the obsessive dancing then it might not have been much of a buff 16:33:51 pretty sure it was big if you *didn't* do that, though 16:33:51 Well, dancing magic was easy 16:33:54 yes 16:33:57 Dancing something like shields could be really annoying 16:34:22 ??victory dance[$ 16:34:23 victory dance[4/4]: i died with tornado once because i held down . while letting a hobgoblin hit me to train shields 16:34:23 ] 16:34:25 Not that the only people who get opinions were around pre-then though, but given that a lot of people have problems with current trunk It'll be interesting to see which people object to which things 16:34:26 Dancing fighting and melee skills on a deep elf caster of some sort could be downright dangerous 16:34:53 yeah, you used to have lots and lots of exp dumped into dumb things you didn't need 16:34:58 SwissStopwatch: My GUESS is actually that the people who do worst will notice this the least, since they probably have a worse sense of how it used to be 16:35:10 ontoclasm: Remember that the low levels of skills cost so much less, though 16:35:14 yes, everyone freely being able to get max fighting also makes a big difference 16:35:27 Since besides the complaints about forest/crypt/new races I'm starting to see more of the classic "why's Crawl getting harder!?" complaints again 16:35:27 well yeah, btu now not one single point of exp goes anywhere but where you want it 16:35:35 SwissStopwatch: Really? 16:35:42 still not too many 16:35:54 Also it's not like I've done a comprehensive survey of complainers 16:36:01 because man that doesn't sound pleasant 16:36:04 Hahaha 16:36:05 DracoOmega: there's a post on sa which is basically "crawl has difficulty settings, they're called 0.10, 0.11, 0.12, and trunk" 16:36:05 No, it does not 16:36:13 Since when is difficulty a problem? 16:36:15 :x 16:36:16 ontoclasm: That isn't actually true at all, though 16:36:21 i know 16:36:25 ontoclasm: Like, the winrate across some versions is surprisingly constant 16:36:39 And it's been getting EASIER, if anything 16:36:54 it's just uh 16:37:13 whatever you call the misconception where people remember "distinctive" things more 16:37:13 My feeling is that .12 is easier than .10 but then again I'm also better now than I was when I played .10 16:37:23 they remember their wins from the past, but forget their losses 16:37:29 SwissStopwatch: I think the data supports this 16:37:39 so it seems like they're dying more now 16:37:40 -!- popx has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:37:45 Heh 16:37:54 winrate isn't even necessarily a good measurement of course 16:37:58 also 0.10 in particular had the constriction thing 16:38:03 Well, there are problems with every metric, sadly 16:38:08 yes 16:38:11 and i think a -lot- of people got their first wins as tasonirs 16:38:13 0.12 looks really easy compared to 0.11 at the moment, but this is actually the tournament's fault 16:38:23 Since it hasn't been nearly as long since it ended 16:38:29 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: availability heuristic perhaps 16:38:30 well one thing that skews some of the measurements 16:38:34 is the addition of trunk to webtiles 16:38:35 And winrates during tournaments are way up compared to the rest of a stable version's life 16:38:47 For a variety of understandable reasons 16:39:06 A lot of better players, playing more, and playing their best 16:39:27 It's quite hard to control for average player skill 16:39:36 But even if we exclude a few things, I think 0.12 still turns out to look easier 16:39:40 basically impossible with the sets of data sequell collects 16:39:40 Like, MiBe's winrate is way up 16:39:46 (Most likely cleaving) 16:40:06 I don't think this is actually a PROBLEM, necessarily, but that is my guess as to why 16:40:08 yes, the new adage that cleaving is a buff to bad players possibly holds true 16:40:17 heh 16:40:27 And it's good for bad players to be able to win occasionally with a few select combos I think 16:40:35 probably any version of SS is still easier than Linley's, assuming the player can deal with all the things the interface makes harder 16:40:37 Yeah, I don't see a problem with that 16:40:44 err, still harder, I meant 16:40:58 st_: There was a lot of brokenly good stuff there, yes? 16:40:59 mostly because the aspect of roguelike culture where people wallow in and are proud of their 3000 games without ever getting close to winning or something annoys me 16:41:01 Like level 4 controlled blink 16:41:16 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:41:17 berserk rage 16:41:20 yes, also less nasty uniques and monsters 16:41:25 easier branches 16:41:34 ontoclasm: I'd take level 4 controlled blink over berserk rage, thank you :P 16:41:34 the average playskill may have been much worse 16:41:45 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:41:47 Ugly things and slime creatures were both yaks 16:41:55 I mean I imagine it's pretty low near the beginning of a game's lifetime 16:42:06 I agree with st_ 16:42:18 (as well as agreeing with dcss gradually getting easier) 16:42:48 Well, some of the ways it has gotten easier are legitimately very good things, in my opinion 16:42:56 Like a little more starting hp, say 16:43:00 yes 16:43:00 anyway upping the difficulty in some way or another probably is helpful to keeping strong players interested 16:43:08 i remember playing before the starting hp thing 16:43:11 yes but ideally those would be compensated for elsewhere 16:43:13 it was horrible 16:43:26 elliott: Well, I think everyone has agreed forever that midgame could be harder 16:43:27 SwissStopwatch: I don't feel that way because there are supposed to be challenge races, which have all been buffed! 16:43:30 how bad was starting HP "back in the day" 16:43:38 like compare current mummies, ogres, draconians to ancient ones 16:43:39 SwissStopwatch: Well, everyone gained like 3 16:43:39 st_: since when has mummy been buffe 16:43:39 d 16:43:42 well ok 16:43:42 halflings 16:43:49