00:01:15 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2236-g7be3fc8 (34) 00:05:40 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2236-g7be3fc8 (34) 00:07:40 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:07 -!- Helmschank has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:10:08 gammafunk: yes, Grunt is a savage vaulter, not a savage critic ... 00:10:13 hadn't you figure d that out yet? 00:11:54 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:12:17 -!- darkflagrance has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:13:45 I had figured out that first part for sure 00:14:07 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:15 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:24:42 -!- url has quit [] 00:25:52 -!- whig has joined ##crawl-dev 00:29:09 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:31:34 -!- dcss25381 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:31:42 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 00:31:47 gammafunk: if you want harsh critique ask tenofswords ;) 00:32:38 or radiosilence 00:34:18 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:35:49 -!- mumra_ is now known as mumra 00:39:44 -!- dupo has quit [] 00:43:36 Nomi the Impaler (L16 DrSk) ASSERT(this) in 'actor.h' at line 34 failed on turn 32925. (Vaults:1) 00:44:40 didn't I tell you about that feature whereby you can identify as a nick you aren't actually connected as? 00:45:35 -!- Nomi has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:53 what was that bug about ._. 00:46:19 what bug 00:46:25 i mean crash 00:46:36 !lm Nomi crash -log 00:46:36 19. Nomi, XL16 DrSk, T:32925 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nomi/crash-Nomi-20130704-054336.txt 00:46:58 Nomi the Impaler (L16 DrSk) ASSERT(this) in 'actor.h' at line 34 failed on turn 32925. (Vaults:1) 00:47:34 hmm, not really intelligable without a stacktrace 00:48:21 player::hurt, from fire_final_effects 00:48:52 i bet some dead monster had a fineff that dealt damage 00:49:08 and it died before that fineff 00:50:27 -!- Nomi_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:51:32 ?? song of slaying 00:51:33 song of slaying[1/1]: Skald spell which gives you a slaying bonus for each monster you kill at the cost of noise. 00:52:04 that should totally give "You are singing in the rain." if you walk into some rain 00:52:09 ?? spectral weapon 00:52:10 spectral weapon[1/1]: Creates an allied spectral clone of your wielded weapon, which strikes enemies in melee when you do. Damage it takes is shared with you. Its offensive stats scale with your weapon skill, and its defenses scale with spell power. 00:52:24 > damage it takes is shared with you 00:52:27 is that a fineff? 00:52:56 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:53:14 because then that would explain nomi's crash. ogre cast fireball hitting the weapon and itself, killing itself in the process 00:53:37 -!- Nomi has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:12 -!- Nomi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:56:27 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:20 -!- djanatyn has quit [Excess Flood] 00:57:24 -!- mason--- has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:57:58 -!- us17 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:58:03 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:58:40 -!- Nomi has joined ##crawl-dev 00:59:05 %git :/Spectral 00:59:06 07qoala * 0.13-a0-2210-g26cee09: Unbreak Spectral Weapon damage sharing. 10(22 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=26cee099ebc3 00:59:56 hm, but this crash was 2221 01:03:21 -!- kait_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:54 !tell qoala spectral weapon damage sharing still crashing? monster killed itself with fireball: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nomi/crash-Nomi-20130704-054336.txt 01:03:55 Zannick: OK, I'll let qoala know. 01:08:37 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:12:29 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 01:12:31 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:13:50 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:14:47 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:23 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 01:30:58 -!- Nomi_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:31:11 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:31:43 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:36 -!- Nomi_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:44 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:38:09 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:17 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:21 -!- dcss33939 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:47:18 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:43 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:32 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:44 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:01:31 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: BRB, DEAD] 02:01:32 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 02:04:54 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:09 -!- grimdox has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:17:30 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:24:30 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:24:44 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:20 -!- Grathtarg has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:29:00 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:37:45 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Pacra] 02:41:40 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:45:29 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:57:21 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:59:22 Orc warrior "unaffected by your stone of flame" by Scrotar 03:05:27 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:10:14 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:10:31 I wonder if this is just orc warriors having AC 03:24:31 oh dear 03:24:44 was wondering why a new spell wasn't being reloaded in the player's spells 03:25:30 apparently spell ids are only marshalled as a byte, and i just hit 256 spells :( 03:28:37 -!- Lightli has quit [Quit: zzz] 03:29:19 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2237-g8b27fd8: Suppress a compiler warning 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8b27fd8d3bc9 03:31:55 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:12 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:49 -!- eurtek has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:41:51 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:55:56 -!- Aponym has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 03:56:43 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:57:16 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:58:41 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:10:17 -!- mason--- has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:10:30 SenorPwnage (L17 SpVM) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 418 failed. (D:16) 04:11:59 -!- vadatajs_ has quit [Client Quit] 04:12:56 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:45 -!- heteroy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:26:30 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:26:57 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:27:22 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Guest68885 04:27:56 -!- jarpiain_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:28 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:30:47 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:53 -!- flowsnake_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:14 -!- mumblet is now known as Guest85577 04:32:05 -!- buppy has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:06 -!- Hailley has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:06 -!- alefury has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:06 -!- Nexos has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:06 -!- yxhuvud2 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:06 -!- notlainiw has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:06 -!- heteroy has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:06 -!- sacje has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:06 -!- Adder has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:07 -!- flowsnake has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:07 -!- hart_ has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:07 -!- LoremIpsum has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:07 -!- Wensley has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:07 -!- jarpiain has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:07 -!- mumblerit has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:07 -!- Guest85577 is now known as mumblerit 04:32:13 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:37 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:39:10 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:52 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:55 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:52:42 -!- Quashie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:31 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:53:53 -!- Sysice has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:54:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:05:51 Grunt has commit access by eo 05:10:06 -!- Melum has quit [Quit: Was eaten by a grue.] 05:17:42 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 05:17:55 -!- leStahL has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:21:30 <|amethyst> Grunt: looks like you have a fan 05:24:20 really? I can't open the link but considering the title and that this is a BUG tracker ... 05:24:37 <|amethyst> bhaak: I marked it private 05:24:44 <|amethyst> bhaak: so as not to encourage others 05:25:12 <|amethyst> bhaak: my reply said essentially that: "Perhaps you misunderstood the point of a bug tracker?" 05:25:21 hehe 05:25:39 <|amethyst> It had as the text of the bug, this: 05:25:42 <|amethyst> ??eocrawl 05:25:43 eocrawl[1/2]: get rid of: (by priority) labs. (by alphabet) badforms beogh blade ctele felids forest gloom hammers haste meph profane halls salamanders submerging supmoths tso conducts. 05:25:50 <|amethyst> ??eocrawl[2] 05:25:51 eocrawl[2/2]: (already removed) badwiki chaos butterflies Grunt killer bee larvae pan rogue gallery secret doors tavern translucent green crystal warwick von hugsford. 05:26:24 <|amethyst> except it was listed as "Also remove:" instead of "(already removed)" 05:26:41 -!- heteroy_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 05:27:18 <|amethyst> !lg BlackSwan orc 05:27:18 1. BlackSwan the Conjurer (L9 DgCj), slain by an orc warrior (a +0,+1 orcish hand axe) on Orc:2 on 2013-07-03 16:32:10, with 5500 points after 10459 turns and 0:47:17. 05:27:29 <|amethyst> !lg BlackSwan orc -tv 05:27:30 1. BlackSwan, XL9 DgCj, T:10459 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 05:27:34 <|amethyst> !lg BlackSwan orc -tv:cancel 05:27:35 1. BlackSwan, XL9 DgCj, T:10459 cancel requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 05:27:41 <|amethyst> !lg BlackSwan orc -tv:channel=devtv 05:27:42 1. BlackSwan, XL9 DgCj, T:10459 requested for devtv (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 05:28:25 <|amethyst> hm, perhaps I misunderstood how -tv:channel= works? 05:28:50 <|amethyst> !lg BlackSwan orc -tv 05:28:51 1. BlackSwan, XL9 DgCj, T:10459 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 05:30:49 <|amethyst> !lm BlackSwan 05:30:49 40. [2013-07-04 04:58:47] BlackSwan the Slinger (L9 DgHu) killed Psyche on turn 7411. (D:9) 05:30:56 <|amethyst> !lm BlackSwan -log 05:30:57 BlackSwan, XL9 DgHu, T:7411 (milestone) has no matching game. 05:31:14 -!- Nexos is now known as Nexos_ 05:33:11 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:33:35 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:51 -!- adityarajbhatt has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 05:41:21 !messages 05:41:22 (1/2) lainiw said (14h 22m 18s ago): i tried to send someone a message on clan from the terminal, and got this error: "You fall into the water! You sink like a rock. 05:41:42 !messages 05:41:43 (1/1) lainiw said (14h 22m 10s ago): (Couldn't open kryft's spool file. Aborting.)" 05:41:54 haha, is that an error message built into webtiles, or are you just being an evil person 05:41:54 evilmike: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:42:23 -!- archaeo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:42:33 or I guess dgl in this case 05:43:17 <|amethyst> That's the message dgl gives when it can't open the player's mail spool 05:43:57 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:46 <|amethyst> TZer0: /var/mail is the directory it wants to use (see CHROOT_MAILSPOOL in dgl-manage.conf, and the various uses in dgamelaunch.conf) 05:45:26 I was playing console too if that matters 05:45:30 <|amethyst> TZer0: I have: drwxrwsr-x 2 crawl crawl 16384 Jun 26 01:44 /home/crawl/DGL/var/mail/ 05:45:55 <|amethyst> probably 700 would be enough as long as it's owned by crawl 05:46:01 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:36 Waterpls (L3 LOTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 5969 failed. (D:3) 05:46:46 Waterpls (L3 LOTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 5969 failed. (D:3) 05:46:52 Waterpls (L3 LOTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 5969 failed. (D:3) 05:46:56 <|amethyst> !lm Waterpls crash -log -3 05:46:57 3. Waterpls, XL6 DECK, T:4199 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Waterpls/crash-Waterpls-20130610-125438.txt 05:46:59 <|amethyst> !lm Waterpls crash -log -2 05:46:59 4. Waterpls, XL3 LOTm, T:1920 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Waterpls/crash-Waterpls-20130704-104635.txt 05:47:01 Waterpls (L3 LOTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 5969 failed. (D:3) 05:47:04 <|amethyst> !lm Waterpls crash -log 05:47:04 5. Waterpls, XL3 LOTm, T:1920 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Waterpls/crash-Waterpls-20130704-104645.txt 05:47:51 <|amethyst> that's in monster::attempt_escape 05:48:06 <|amethyst> themonst is supposed to be the constrictor 05:49:55 <|amethyst> which I guess was a S2S ball python 05:52:03 -!- Voker57|2 has quit [Changing host] 05:52:04 -!- Voker57|2 is now known as Voker57 05:53:40 <|amethyst> nothing surprising in the core dump 05:54:06 <|amethyst> somehow the snake died without releasing constriction, or the constriction structures were out-of-sync before that 06:03:12 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:05:27 heh, what did grunt do now 06:12:32 surprisingly, just completely mundane stuff 06:13:00 maybe that bug report guy was upset because grunt isn't being insane enough 06:14:55 damn hammers are ruining the crawl experience 06:15:18 <|amethyst> gloom hammers 06:15:34 <|amethyst> and submerging supmoths 06:15:46 wasn't gloom removed already? 06:16:07 <|amethyst> was it? last I heard Jory's tower got more gloom 06:16:13 oh 06:16:27 evilmike: i suspect it's probably one specific person who still hasn't forgiven grunt for profane halls 06:16:32 but that is complete subjecture of course 06:16:55 I always hear stories about it 06:18:03 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 06:18:32 apparently spell ids are only marshalled as a byte, and i just hit 256 spells :( <- This sounds rather ungood 06:22:05 I guess spell marshalling code needs a second change in as many days? ^^; 06:22:05 <|amethyst> it's easy enough to change with a tag 06:22:05 DracoOmega: i already wrote a patch to fix this one 06:22:05 is there any opinion on changing felids? 06:22:05 Changing them how? 06:22:05 I don't have any ideas, I just didn't think many people liked them 06:22:05 A number of people vocally DISlike them, but I don't think their overall popularity is actually that low 06:22:05 !lg * t s=-race 06:22:05 50350 games for * (t): 48x Green Draconian, 53x Mottled Draconian, 54x Pale Draconian, 58x Red Draconian, 59x White Draconian, 64x Purple Draconian, 68x Grey Draconian, 69x Black Draconian, 70x Yellow Draconian, 750x Halfling, 816x Ghoul, 876x Demigod, 912x Centaur, 914x Deep Dwarf, 1197x Sludge Elf, 1201x Felid, 1543x Draconian, 1547x Vampire, 1568x Troll, 1585x Human, 1625x Naga, 1741x Kobold, 1... 06:22:05 !lg * t s=-crace 06:22:05 50350 games for * (t): 750x Halfling, 816x Ghoul, 876x Demigod, 912x Centaur, 914x Deep Dwarf, 1197x Sludge Elf, 1201x Felid, 1547x Vampire, 1568x Troll, 1585x Human, 1625x Naga, 1741x Kobold, 1762x Merfolk, 1769x Ogre, 1959x High Elf, 1983x Tengu, 2086x Draconian, 2769x Mummy, 2785x Spriggan, 2786x Hill Orc, 3863x Demonspawn, 4336x Octopode, 4353x Deep Elf, 5167x Minotaur 06:22:05 Look at all those things people play less! :P 06:22:08 (That being said, I would be perfectly happy to see felids learn to use wands. They can already use most other evocables, and there are awkward situations with them being unable to use /digging at the very least) 06:23:31 03hhkb 07* 0.13-a0-2238-g280b783: Fixes help menu scrolling when at the first line 10(14 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=280b7835a7bc 06:23:32 the people who play felids go through like 10 in an hour though 06:23:32 a lot of people dislike felids because of their extra life thing, I think 06:23:32 I've heard all kinds of different complaints besides that 06:23:32 personally I don't care too much. I dislike felids because of the item restrictions, it makes the game boring for me 06:23:32 That one I probably find more common 06:24:27 New branch created: summons-tweaks (7 commits) 06:24:30 03dolorous 07[summons-tweaks] * 0.13-a0-2148-g3ce946c: Make aboms from twisted resurrection heal from corpses, version 2. 10(3 months ago, 2 files, 21+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3ce946c9a45c 06:24:30 03mumra 07[summons-tweaks] * 0.13-a0-2149-g90f6f3a: Limit Twisted Resurrection to three abominations 10(5 days ago, 9 files, 102+ 17-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=90f6f3a32f2d 06:24:30 03mumra 07[summons-tweaks] * 0.13-a0-2221-g5a779b1: Merge branch 'master' of gitorious.org:crawl/crawl into summons-tweaks 10(12 hours ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5a779b1199b5 06:24:30 03mumra 07[summons-tweaks] * 0.13-a0-2240-g522fbc8: Merge branch 'master' of gitorious.org:crawl/crawl into summons-tweaks 10(8 hours ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=522fbc83e1c3 06:24:30 03mumra 07[summons-tweaks] * 0.13-a0-2241-g5fafab8: New spell: Summon Tentacle 10(3 hours ago, 18 files, 265+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5fafab86bcc8 06:24:30 03mumra 07[summons-tweaks] * 0.13-a0-2243-g9e91255: Merge branch 'master' of gitorious.org:crawl/crawl into summons-tweaks 10(3 hours ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9e91255e9e89 06:24:30 03mumra 07[summons-tweaks] * 0.13-a0-2244-gad1b86d: Marshall spell types as short instead of byte 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 27+ 16-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ad1b86d04a80 06:24:32 what was the philosophy behind felids? am I remembering wrong, or were they intended as a beginner species? 06:25:00 buppy: just a really weird race, not really meant for beginners 06:25:16 ^ if anyone could look over that last commit to check i haven't done anything really stupid that would blow up save files i'd be grateful ;) 06:25:26 should probably pick that one into master 06:25:41 Well, the life thing buffers you against misplays, but they're so fragile that you also die frequently when no other race would have 06:26:04 yeah thats why extra lives dont bug me really 06:26:17 Probably that is the reason I personally dislike them most - because even if you play well, it's very hard to avoid getting blindsided relatively often 06:26:33 I don't think this is bad in terms of design, just that I don't favor it personally 06:27:07 Like, I don't actually mind them; that is just the aspect of them which I probably like least. The item thing actually doesn't really bother me for something to play on ocassion 06:27:46 mumra: Did you not make twisted rez into a single superabomination after all then? (Or just not YET?) 06:28:10 mmmmm super aboms. Is it actually fun in practice, then? 06:28:17 I also wonder how it works for monsters casting it now 06:28:24 DracoOmega: not yet no, those are just the same commits i pushed to another branch 06:28:54 but superabom does seem like a good idea 06:28:55 evilmike: Well, I had independently been thinking of making monster twisted rez 'cheat' even more than it currently does, a little while back, since it always seems pretty non-threatening 06:29:06 good idea 06:32:47 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:32:47 the problem with the monster version is that the crawling corpses charge the player once they're created 06:32:47 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:32:47 <|amethyst> yeah, I didn't really AI them up much 06:32:47 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:32:47 i don't think that's the only problem 06:32:47 Yeah, I don't think that's the only problem, either 06:32:47 seems like they should surround the necromancer til they join 06:32:47 availability of corpses is probably a bigger problem 06:32:47 Even when they successfully merge, they're not really that scary 06:32:47 Since twisted rez needs more corpses than, say, animate dead, to actually function 06:32:47 superabom would help with that; and they could cheat by not requiring as much meat 06:32:47 Yeah 06:32:47 They already do cheat that way, but they could cheat even more 06:32:47 <|amethyst> "super"abom presumably being bigger than current ones? 06:32:47 <|amethyst> because the spell shouldn't suck compared to animate dead 06:32:47 mumra: So, player spells were marshalled as bytes, but monster spells as shorts? =/ 06:32:47 DracoOmega: don't ask :P 06:32:47 |amethyst: Well, yes. The idea is that instead of a legion of weak things, you get a single strong thing 06:32:47 mumra: I cringed a bit 06:32:47 DracoOmega: hehe 06:32:47 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: like tentacled monstrosity strong? 06:32:47 <|amethyst> (once sufficiently big, that is) 06:32:47 Nice ifdefing a function parameter, too 06:35:22 |amethyst: Maybe? I have no idea what is specifically reasonable here 06:35:22 It depends on how many corpses it takes to keep the thing powered 06:35:22 (Since it also doesn't heal without new corpses) 06:35:22 DracoOmega: it looked like a byte->short change had been kind of partially prepared for, with the assumption that this wouldn't happen til version bump (and missing several cases anyway) 06:35:22 i figure if you get enough corpses, and maybe depending on the highest HD corpse you've gotten or something, the super abom should be obscene 06:35:22 Yeah, I think it's fine to make it really strong 06:35:22 Since it takes work to get an maintain 06:35:22 And cannot be easily replaced 06:35:22 no constriction, but better attacks than a tmons otherwise 06:35:22 And that would make it extremely distinct from animate dead, which the present version mostly isn't 06:35:22 <|amethyst> just make it an N-headed chimera 06:35:22 <|amethyst> one per corpse :) 06:35:22 Oh dear 06:35:22 speaking of chimera, FR this monster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dkq6Lp8_gg 06:35:33 Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.12 06:36:09 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:17 -!- ctair has joined ##crawl-dev 06:40:54 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:40:58 On a more controversial note, something I have been mulling over for a little while now 06:41:08 I have been pondering the possibility of downscaling the xp from later-game monsters somewhat and/or raising xp requirements for higher levels. 06:41:11 Over the last number of versions, the amount of xp available in a 3-rune game has increased by something like 35%, which is quite significant. And it's difficult to make some places reasonably challenging the more easily players are able to overlevel for them. 06:41:41 my (possibly very misinformed) intuition is that raising xp requirements would be easier 06:41:56 A bunch of this is from lategame vaults, though not all of it. But I think high level vaults are themselves too fun to want to trim, so I think it might be good to do this from the other end 06:42:02 ooh, an everythingnerf 06:42:12 <|amethyst> maybe the XP cap from monsters could be increased 06:42:17 Late D alone has gained like 200k exp in the last couple versions 06:42:19 35% s a lot, I would have guessed that's because more vaults placing in late D 06:42:33 <|amethyst> alongside increasing XP requirements I mean 06:42:35 -!- Johnny is now known as Guest1203 06:42:37 -!- dcss77775 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:40 But nearly every branch has gained some 06:42:47 (I have been running stats and experimenting with formulas and such) 06:42:53 cool 06:43:00 <|amethyst> since AIUI the monsters that hit those limits are mostly extended 06:43:15 What limits are you talking about? The 15k per monster limit? 06:43:28 i think its a good goal to adjust the curve to fit the current state of the game, the last time it was balanced, the xp distribution was different 06:43:31 The only things that hit that are like Cerebov and co, and almost entirely irrelevant to this 06:43:48 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: yeah... it's kind of weird that cerebov gives you 1.5 OOF worth of XP 06:43:59 Why? He's harder than 1.5 OOFs, even 06:44:12 <|amethyst> 1.3 I mean 06:44:17 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: that's what I mean 06:44:18 i dont think we need that 15k cap anyway 06:44:22 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: he should give more than 15K 06:44:24 Oh 06:44:28 I thought you said to LOWER the cap 06:44:37 Possibly the cap is unneeded, sure 06:45:17 changing monster xp values might be difficult anyway, unless you want to affect the balance for the whole game 06:45:40 Well, the xp formula already gives diminishing xp for monsters based on their raw xp value 06:45:47 oh 06:45:48 This can be made a bit more diminishing (I already tested this) 06:46:00 Which proportionally affects lategame encounters more, automatically 06:46:06 yeah thats good 06:46:30 Like, I don't have specific desired numbers yet, but I have experimented with most of the parts needed to do this 06:46:42 <|amethyst> Does level XP versus skill XP need to be tuned at the high end? 06:46:55 It would need to be tuned at any point level xp is adjusted, yes 06:46:57 <|amethyst> since levels are irrelevant past a 3-rune game 06:47:10 Ironically, making levels take more xp makes skills train faster 06:47:15 Unless you adjust them too 06:47:24 Since you spend more time at the levels where skill points are cheaper, meaning more skill points in total 06:47:32 -!- vadatajs has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:38 (I ran a bunch of simulations) 06:47:44 <|amethyst> hm, yeah 06:47:47 I thought that only mattered early on? 06:47:53 Or is it still that significant at high levels 06:48:06 I think they stop getting more expensive at like xl 22 or something 06:48:18 Let me check 06:48:20 interesting, thought it was way lower 06:49:04 Actually, I think it might be nice to shift the cost from being quite so front-loaded, too. Like, I don't mean to affect the really early game balance at all, but there's a really noticable cutoff around 15-ish or something, where skill training seems to get suddenly much slower 06:49:10 <|amethyst> Is there a need to change anything below XL 22? 06:49:14 Possibly you have noticed this while playing, too? 06:49:23 it was a lot worse in older versions 06:49:31 Possibly, yes 06:49:42 where after a certain skill level (was 15ish) every level past that cost the same amount 06:49:44 or something like that 06:49:47 It might be nice to smooth that out a touch too, if only for how it feels 06:49:55 I don't mean for the skills themselves 06:49:57 I mean skill point costs 06:50:36 Okay, it looks like skill point costs stop rising at xl 23, actually 06:51:03 Though they don't rise a whole lot for the couple levels before that, either 06:52:00 But, say, at the moment a skill point at xl 15 costs about twice the xp of one at xl 13 06:52:14 I don't mind the way it works right now anyway. Low levels definitely are MUCH cheaper, but you tend to raise skills to extreme levels for high level spells and huge weapons. makes sense to encourage specialization for stuff like that 06:52:35 Again, I'm not meaning levels within a specific skill itself 06:52:40 Perhaps I am being slightly unclear here 06:52:49 I am fine with that 06:53:00 Oh, I see, you said skill points 06:53:20 yeah that's an internal thing crawl uses, right. 06:53:25 Yeah, the rate of training EVERYTHING slows down dramatically with your xl, and this happens pretty sharply around the end of Lairish 06:53:38 Or a bit after 06:53:56 So it actually depends on your XL and not your total XP gained?? 06:54:02 Total xp gained, sorry 06:54:05 ok good 06:54:06 Draining doesn't matter 06:54:09 <|amethyst> !tell bh I know gargoyle wall-swimming has been proposed, but I don't know that we could get that working in a non-broken way by 0.13... Would a reasonable substitute for now be clinging + increased stealth and/or EV while next to a wall? 06:54:11 |amethyst: OK, I'll let bh know. 06:54:12 Xp apt doesn't matter, either 06:54:13 iirc there actually was an exploit aaaaages ago where you could self-drain 06:54:21 Yeah 06:54:58 But like, at xl 13 (for a -0.5 xp apt race, which doesn't exist :P) a skill point costs 56 xp 06:55:03 At xl 15, it costs 100 xp 06:55:40 Though this is a totally seperate point to curbing lateergame xp gain, of course 06:56:13 and I suppose the biggest effect would be on the bit of D between Lair and Vaults, and also the orc mines except for some high level orcs 06:56:14 But it has always sort of felt like you gain skills at a fairly rapid pace, and then suddenly slow to a crawl around midgame 06:56:29 And probably theoretically it would be nicer to smooth this out a little 06:56:56 i imagine you'd need to take a good look at early monster xp values 06:57:03 <|amethyst> (for those who are following along at home, see calc_skill_cost() in skills.cc) 06:57:10 a lot of them are TINY 06:57:13 Of course, I'd like to do this without making earlygame notable harder than it is, since that is fine like that :P 06:57:51 do you think theres a particular part of the midgame that feels slowest? 06:58:04 personally i think post-lair but before vaults feels the most like this 06:58:08 Yes, same 06:58:10 things pick up once you start getting to high level monsters 06:58:19 <|amethyst> what XL range is that? 06:58:26 but i think part of this is also because, immediately after lair, you kind of "downgrade" back to the mid-D monsters 06:58:31 |amethyst: Maybe ~14-18? 06:58:32 -!- Guest1203 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:58:35 many of them which you fought before entering lair 06:59:08 so, on top of the skill point cost going up, the monster XP values don't catch up to you until a bit later 06:59:08 evilmike: I do wonder though, as I was saying, whether this could be improved by slowing skill gain a touch for late Lair, and raising it a little afterward, so that the decline wasn't so sharp 06:59:18 it might 06:59:30 I can't do more than guess though 06:59:38 Making the mid D monsters more rewarding, and making them also a little stronger in relative terms 06:59:49 And yeah, this is hard stuff to know for sure without a lot of playtesting 07:00:21 <|amethyst> currently: 28 (11), 40, 56, 76 (14), 100, 130, 165, 195 (18), 215, 230, 240, 248 (23), 250 07:01:03 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:02:44 <|amethyst> (err, 248 is 22) 07:03:18 In any event, shall I interpret the climate as being generally favorable to trying this? :) 07:04:07 <|amethyst> could be something like 28 (11), 38, 40, 54 (14), 70, 88, 108, 130 (18), 150, 170, 190, 210 (22), 220, 240, 260, 280, 300 (27) 07:04:54 Perhaps. I'd want to run some numbers against the level xp values to see how that comes out to total skill points by xl 27, though, since it's actually hard to predict at a glance 07:05:14 <|amethyst> yeah, you'd want a concommittant adjustment to the levels 07:05:28 -!- Nexos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:05:51 Since I recall my first attempt to slow things down actually made them faster, so... :P 07:06:46 i would throw in: making later D layouts a bit smaller (kind of planned anyway) with less monsters - fewer but more meaningful encounters 07:06:52 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 07:07:27 'More meaningful' might imply a few more notable end-tier threats, since I think a lot of late D vaults are as meaningful as you can otherwise get 07:07:36 I am a little wary of making things smaller though 07:07:45 <|amethyst> As for post-lair boringness... 07:07:58 <|amethyst> would moving some of the portal vault spawn locations out of lair help that? 07:08:12 I don't think so, actually 07:08:42 Since that means less fun for Lair, but also stuff like ice caves and such are at their best (in my opinion) if you run into them just a little bit more early than you'd prefer 07:09:13 <|amethyst> and more portal vaults just means more content/XP creep 07:09:21 <|amethyst> s/more/new/ 07:09:42 Not necessarily a huge lot, depending on what is in them 07:10:26 But moreover, I've been increasingly inclined to think that reducing xp gain in some fashion is a better solution than avoiding using hard and challenging encounters in as many places. (Why I brought this up in the first place) 07:11:21 Since I had been using weaker stuff in Forest/Crypt somewhat to dilute things, but this often results in a lot of the levels that are just really easy and kind of pointless, and it feels bad to have to hold back strong stuff for fears of being too generous with xp because of them 07:11:23 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 07:11:58 <|amethyst> yeah 07:12:42 <|amethyst> needs care not to make things too much more difficult for three-rune players 07:13:00 <|amethyst> or at least, not to do so intentionally 07:13:03 Well, there are points in a 3-rune game that can easily stand to be harder and probably SHOULD be harder 07:13:08 And there are points that should not 07:13:51 <|amethyst> I mean, if you can't get past level 22 without doing "extra" content, that could be an issue 07:14:15 What do you mean by extra here? 07:14:19 Places like Elf? 07:14:32 <|amethyst> if you can because you're getting more XP in your three-rune branches too, that's fine 07:15:02 Yeah, it could also be nice to shift some more of the xp to Lair rune branches and such. Some of them at the moment are fairly underwhelming outside their rune vaults 07:15:13 <|amethyst> maybe not elf, but slime, hell/pan/abyss/tomb, blade, maybe forest/crypt 07:15:37 And those branch deadliness stats I compiled the other week show how dramatically the danger in those places cuts off past a fairly modest xl 07:16:26 Well, certainly I wouldn't mean to push players to do Hellpan and such if they only meant to 3-rune 07:16:35 That's not the intent 07:16:54 And I'm actually not that concerned about the xp gain in extended itself, either 07:17:07 <|amethyst> I mean, even pushing them to do forest/crypt is lengthening the "minimum" game somewhat 07:17:10 One nice thing about extended is that it has a lot of threats that are scary no matter WHAT your power level is 07:17:35 |amethyst: I have the distinct impression that the majority of people who skip places like Crypt/Forest are people confident enough not to care about the xp anyway 07:18:30 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:33 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: perhaps.... I'm representing the players like myself who can barely win as it is and don't want to make it even harder by having more places we might bie :) 07:18:39 <|amethyst> s/bie/die/ 07:18:41 Heh 07:18:48 Yes, I don't mean to sideline such altogether 07:19:06 But I think even if a player is poor, there is still a noticable lull in that stretch of the game 07:19:19 <|amethyst> yeah 07:19:30 Where you are unlikely to die even with poor/no tactics, except against a few specifically high-tier threats 07:19:49 (I have done a great deal of spectating all kinds of players in Crypt/Forest and such over the last number of weeks) 07:20:41 <|amethyst> I guess even in my first game with a rune (which was my first win) I cleared slime down to 5 for the XP 07:20:47 i would throw in: making later D layouts a bit smaller (kind of planned anyway) with less monsters - fewer but more meaningful encounters 07:20:52 this comes up from time to time, i still don't like it 07:21:13 |amethyst: Yeah, I think clearing more and more stuff for xp and loot is something done proportionally more by worse players, who want that safety buffer 07:21:25 |amethyst: So I actually don't think changes will affect the game length of those least confident, much 07:21:36 if you want to make levels smaller, i'd suggest looking at Pan layouts, but actually keep the monster count the same. 07:21:48 Yeah, Pan is one of the few places I can get behind smaller levels 07:22:01 (Also there is those Pan changes I had been thinking about....) 07:22:58 evilmike: fair enough; i like it personally because it'd just be cutting out popcorn monsters and exploration which you've done more than enough of by that stage 07:23:06 (and there would still be large encompass vaults) 07:23:06 i find that "meaningful encounter" in crawl tends to involve a large number of monsters, or a high density 07:23:09 but yeah, certainly for Pan 07:23:18 evilmike: I don't know if you'd heard any of those, when the discussion of moving the demonic rune to Crypt/Forest came up? 07:23:20 dcss actually went a long way to cutting popcorn in late D already, it used to spawn low level monsters 1/3 of the time 07:23:36 Yeah, I remember random hobgoblins on D:27 07:24:06 <|amethyst> L9 Summoning/Translocation: Unleash Pandemonium. Creates a portal to Pan and 1d2 pandemonium lords, with friendliness chance depending on the number of runes you have. 07:24:09 evilmike: Well, by 'moving', I mean 'axing, and replacing with one elsewhere' 07:24:09 but i find the DCSS is designed well for large-scale fights with tough enemies, and that kind of thing is usually more fun than fighting single hard uniques with tons of hp. that can be fun too, but it can feel like a gear-check sometimes 07:24:12 -!- guest_____ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:24:14 evilmike: making the levels smaller could increase the density of monsters without increasing XP of course 07:24:23 <|amethyst> (doesn't work in pan) 07:24:27 tome4 tends to do "small fights with extremely tough monsters" a lot btw, it feels like BS sometimes 07:24:34 evilmike: Yeah, I agree. Having multiple moving parts to an encounter, doing different things, affects tactical positioning and such way more than a single really tough thing 07:24:58 |amethyst: Are they unfriendly if you stole their runess? :) 07:25:14 DracoOmega: i am fine with moving the demonic rune, but i'm going to assume the idea also means putting pan portals mostly in the pan lord vaults 07:25:19 which seems good to me 07:25:23 evilmike: Yes, it was 07:25:43 <|amethyst> kryft: not the unique pan lords :P 07:25:46 Make Pan shorter, and force you to actually enter some of those vaults, since without the demonic rune the random Pan lords would be just something to ignore 07:26:17 <|amethyst> put the down-portals where the rune currently goes 07:26:26 Yeah 07:26:35 L9 Dial Gloorx 07:26:39 With, maybe a 20-30-ish% chance for one outside the rune vault 07:26:44 So that it isn't ALWAYS inside 07:26:53 Well, not always ONLY inside, rather 07:27:07 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:27:11 Hellion Island clearly loses its status as the level's rune vault, though :P 07:27:56 i think you might want to make the rune levels more common too 07:28:42 right now, the frequency they show up at is based on the expectation that you're just diving most of the time 07:28:48 rather than fighting through most levels 07:28:53 Yeah, most definitely 07:29:04 A couple levels on average between the big ones, probably 07:29:16 Certainly not a long extended number - no need to make it feel like a slog 07:29:32 they way it works now it starts at around 2% and gradually increases to 50% depending on the number of levels you've visited 07:34:18 -!- leStahL has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34:23 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:36:16 Well, if Pan was to be finite with this change, I had thought of, say, selecting a random length at game start and shuffling the major levels among it. Though possibly that wouldn't have that large an effect on the surface, though it WOULD prevent the unlikely chance of it going on forever 07:37:35 I kind of wonder what the record is for longest pan visit (counting up to the 5th rune) is in recent versions. dont think its possible to check this 07:37:50 you'd need to check which pan level the player got the 5th pan rune on 07:37:58 Well, it is saved in the log 07:38:02 or maybe 4th unique rune 07:38:05 Says how many levels you visited 07:38:11 But I don't think you can ask sequell this 07:38:26 Oh, did you mean on a single stretch? 07:38:34 I don't think THAT is preserved anywhere 07:38:47 no i just mean how many levels you visited in that game, until getting all the unique runes 07:39:13 Well, the demonic one can go on a bloody long time if it feels like it 07:39:36 not that it matters much to use sequell, you could just caclulate the probability of certain lengths 07:39:37 I am pretty sure no one enjoys exploring their 20th full floor looking for a rune that won't spawn :) 07:39:45 i'm just curious if anyone in particular has been amusingly unlucky 07:39:50 Yeah, heh 07:52:03 -!- PsiRedEye22 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:04:37 -!- darkflagrance has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:05:24 -!- thrash_7 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:07:30 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Pacra] 08:14:48 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:31 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 08:18:07 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:16 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:58 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:22:07 -!- Nexos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:22:21 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Quit: bye] 08:22:41 mumra: Incidentally, I did look over that spell marshalling code commit a couple times and it LOOKS okay to me, but I couldn't say with 100% confidence I'm not overlooking something too :P 08:25:21 DracoOmega: cool, thanks. it definitely didn't seem to break anything, and i guess with a minor tag there nothing can go horribly unrecoverably wrong ;) 08:26:34 if anyone intends on adding any new spells any time soon we'll need the conversion 08:26:43 Save/load code always makes me slightly nervous since it's a little fiddly and minor errors can creep in 08:26:46 -!- Rebthor has joined ##crawl-dev 08:27:01 yeah it's kinda scary 08:27:19 is this how gloom is supposed to work - I am in gloom, I can see things that are out of gloom/ 08:27:46 %dump 08:27:46 http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/rebthor/rebthor.txt 08:28:17 -!- scummos has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:30:00 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:16 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:33:46 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:36:46 gloom just reduces your LOS 08:39:30 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:20 Is gloom actually different than fog, except more durable and spreading? 08:44:39 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 08:44:43 <|amethyst> it is cancelled by Sunlight 08:44:53 Haha, aside from that? 08:45:06 Mu_: but I can see outside of gloom 08:45:10 that's what I'm saying 08:45:10 <|amethyst> doesn't look like it 08:45:19 Rebthor: Well yes, it's basically fog 08:52:03 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 08:55:47 i like infinite pan 08:56:23 sometimes its fun to just see how many zigs you can beat and stuff like that 08:56:34 Well, I like infinite Zigs 08:56:34 it would be bad to lose that possibility imo 08:56:36 Not so much infinite Pan 08:56:47 not having to scum for zigs would also be nice 08:56:52 But there were proposals to just give you an item to spawn another Zig portal if you clear the last floor of your old zig 08:57:04 And also a prosal to guarentee one zig in late D 08:57:07 thats a decent idea regardless, zig scumming sucks 08:57:11 one idea that came up was putting an item that lets you create a zig portal into zig:27 08:57:18 and by that i mean scumming for zig entries, not scumming zigs themselves 08:57:23 but then you would still have to get gold 08:57:23 Yeah 08:57:32 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:40 and for gold, panscumming is needed :( 08:57:54 I have to have to wonder if the gold is even necessary at that point. Like, if you can clear a Zig, you can do anything anyway 08:58:01 So the only real limitation is player time 08:58:03 pretty much, yes 08:58:17 And something that you can definitely absolutely do, but which takes a lot of time to do, is kind of bad 08:58:43 if it was free and guaranteed in late D, it's basically adding a new dungeon branch in the same vein as elf. optional but you get good loot 08:58:53 and early zig is usually easy 08:59:01 Well, I didn't mean the FIRST one was free 08:59:05 ah 08:59:12 But that the item at the end of it would let you enter a new one for free 08:59:18 Since by then you have already demonstrated that you can loot Zig:27 08:59:28 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 08:59:31 And at that point, I figure we can just as well let that character do whatever it wants :P 09:01:02 Since I think it would be a sad thing to prevent characters that want to do infinite zigs from attempting infinite zigs 09:01:23 It's not really a balance consideration at all, as far as I'm concerned, since you are already clearing zigs and can therefore break anything else in the game in half 09:02:08 i wonder if the price of the guaranteed one should have a narrower range 09:02:18 it can vary a lot 09:02:27 Yeah, might be a sensible idea 09:02:50 I don't know what the highest is, I've seen 5000 before 09:02:59 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:02:59 It can get over 10k, I think 09:05:29 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:51 it's either just under or just over 10k but i forget which 09:06:23 i got a 9.5k one a while ago in my current game 09:07:09 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08:27 -!- agentgt has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 09:09:33 oh it's even more than that actually, 14k 09:10:29 14k is a bit silly 09:10:51 I actually think it's a bit odd that loot quality is linked to this, too. It's behavior I don't think people would expect, either 09:11:21 quality isn't affected, just quantity 09:11:30 but yeah, still weird 09:11:43 Ah. Well, still boils down to 'better loot' since you have more shots at good stuff 09:11:52 But enemy difficulty isn't affected, either 09:12:54 So probably I would think that with this new zig proposal, it would make sense to narrow the price range and detach loot quantity from it altogether 09:19:48 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Client Quit] 09:20:12 theres a guy on the tavern who wants to rewrite zig code in c++ according to some old wiki proposal 09:20:57 if it makes it easier to understand/modify that might be good. if it's just change for the sake of change, i'm against it. the overall design for zigs is good already 09:20:59 I saw the thread. I am not sure how specifically useful this would be, but certainly make zig code CLEARER would be good 09:21:00 grandiloquent gentleman or something, i think he already wrote patches that were accepted 09:21:13 Since zig code at the moment is rather unintuitive 09:21:25 And even making small adjustments to some things is kind of hard 09:21:40 (My lua is bad, but I am told this sentiment is shared even by people who are more comfortable with the language) 09:22:33 most dungeony stuff is done in lua, im not sure porting the ziggy part of it to c++ is a good idea 09:22:45 -!- thrash_7 has quit [Quit: thrash_7] 09:23:39 the problem, aside from being difficult to understand, is that if you make a mistake, LUA in crawl is way harder to debug 09:23:45 Tons of dungony stuff is done in C++ 09:23:59 A lot more of it NOW is done in lua, though 09:24:10 Since just about all the new layouts are lua-based 09:24:32 oh, i didnt know the older ones werent 09:24:46 Well, and the underlying stuff that ties it all together is in C++ too 09:24:56 Like parsing vault definitions and constructing stuff out of them 09:25:19 anyway, what i was trying to say is, if told what to do this person on the tavern might do some very useful things! 09:25:21 it doesn't matter so much what the language is anyway, it would just be nice if it was easier to do things like add a new monster theme 09:25:22 Even if it passes control of this to lua at lots of points 09:25:36 adding a new monster theme is pretty easy 09:25:40 evilmike: Yeah, the zig lua's problem isn't that it's in lua. It's that it isn't very intuitively organized, I think 09:25:46 you go to the part in ziggurat.lua with the monsters, and add it 09:25:50 Adding a monster theme is one of the things that actually IS fairly easy 09:26:14 oh, well, the last time I looked at it was more than a year ago, I guess it's easier than I remembered 09:26:20 its neat that it doesnt require compiling 09:26:38 testing zigs is still super annoying though 09:26:47 evilmike: HangedMan made a bunch of changes to a number of monster sets a couple months back or whatever 09:26:55