00:05:43 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2175-ga079a5c (34) 00:05:57 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2175-ga079a5c (34) 00:09:30 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2176-g29d122c: Don't buffer overflow when unmarshalling a negative-length string. 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 6+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=29d122ce6f2f 00:09:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:13:14 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2175-ga079a5c (34) 00:15:58 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:35 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:18:26 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:19:22 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2177-gd6f9700: Fix a comment typo. 10(58 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d6f970034579 00:24:14 Why is hit_points_regeneration marshalled and unmarshalled twice (at different scales)? tags.cc:1169, 1172, 2036, 2039 00:24:30 I'm possibly guessing that it's a hold over from some past change 00:25:21 <|amethyst> I believe so, let me check git blame 00:26:22 <|amethyst> oh 00:26:26 <|amethyst> qoala: way past 00:26:32 <|amethyst> qoala: it's been that way since 00:26:38 <|amethyst> %git 673bdae7 00:26:40 07peterb12 * r673bdae75485: Initial revision 10(8 years ago, 183 files, 153322+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=673bdae75485 00:27:06 impressive 00:28:23 <|amethyst> and I see what kilobyte was talking about earlier (the way saves were originally supposed to work): 00:28:28 <|amethyst> +// NEVER _MODIFY_ THE CONSTRUCT/READ FUNCTIONS, EVER. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT 00:28:31 <|amethyst> +// OF USING TAGS. Apologies for the screaming. 00:31:50 <|amethyst> %git 3506928 00:31:50 07kilobyte * 0.8.0-a0-743-g3506928: Rip away the multiple tags code. 10(2 years, 10 months ago, 4 files, 38+ 234-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=350692865344 00:32:25 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:39 -!- lasserith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:56 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 00:36:00 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 00:38:43 Pascal76 (L1 HEGl) (D:1) 00:38:57 <|amethyst> !lm Pascal76 crash -log 00:38:58 No milestones for Pascal76 (crash). 00:39:23 <|amethyst> !lm Pascal76 crash -log 00:39:23 1. Pascal76, XL1 HEGl, T:0 (milestone): http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Pascal76/crash-Pascal76-20130701-053841.txt 00:39:50 <|amethyst> sigterm in TilesFramework::await_input 00:40:58 -!- rob1231231 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:44:51 <|amethyst> IWBNI we used included the name of the crash signal in the milestone 00:45:02 <|amethyst> s/included // 00:45:10 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2177-gd6f9700 00:45:12 <|amethyst> when it would otherwise be empty 00:56:26 -!- ground4 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 01:02:26 03bh 07[destruction] * 0.13-a0-2157-g83e7e7c: Modify Conservation 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 11+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=83e7e7cf90f7 01:05:35 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 01:06:46 -!- mason- has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:14:58 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:16:52 -!- Thyme has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:04 -!- emeraldemon has quit [Quit: emeraldemon] 01:18:51 -!- dupo has quit [] 01:20:33 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 01:25:59 -!- Hailley has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:10 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 01:27:48 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 01:32:22 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:55 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:34:59 -!- six40sword has quit [Quit: six40sword] 01:36:47 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:37:43 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:39:45 -!- Sky___ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:41:15 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:44:16 -!- platinum has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:50:47 -!- GuraKKa1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:54 -!- LogicNinja has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:00:59 -!- scummos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:14 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2178-g9525326: Don't let elemental wellsprings abjure. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=95253269727e 02:08:13 -!- kryft has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:22 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:15:53 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 02:18:57 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:22:36 -!- TruthQuark has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:23:17 -!- klz has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:25:01 03Keskitalo 07* 0.13-a0-2179-g9d83c65: Capitalization fix. 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9d83c65ba2b5 02:25:01 03Keskitalo 07* 0.13-a0-2180-g8ee3a63: Use tags in hints database, and some other edits (such as removing a reference to searching). 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 50+ 48-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8ee3a633c91a 02:25:01 03Keskitalo 07* 0.13-a0-2181-gc4c8586: Make print_hint function non-static, and make it accessible in dlua. 10(3 minutes ago, 3 files, 23+ 17-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c4c858632350 02:26:25 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:26:32 The last one should be very useful (if simple), I'm really glad to push something worthy every once in a while. :> 02:29:18 -!- grimdox has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:29:44 I'm planning to move the hints messages from .cc to database, that helps to check the formatting - though you still have to play the mode to check they trigger correctly. 02:30:06 Show a blank for 0 spectators instead of a number in webtiles lobby by pubby 02:30:37 Perhaps we'll have an up-to-date hints mode for 0.13! 02:33:49 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:34:42 <|amethyst> Keskitalo: what's arg2 used for? 02:35:23 <|amethyst> oh, I see, a parameter for some hints (like HINT_SEEN_FIRST_OBJECT) 02:36:12 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2182-g9836616: Further update a comment. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9836616a9dae 02:36:14 Yeah, looks like, though I guess only HINT_SEEN_FIRST_OBJECT uses one, and none use two yet. 02:37:25 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:37:27 -!- Kaput has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:39:02 -!- Sky__ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:39:11 03Keskitalo 07* 0.13-a0-2183-gfed54df: Document print_hint further. 10(42 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fed54df21dab 02:43:47 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:19 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 02:50:24 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:55:24 <|amethyst> !tell kilobyte you just tied dolorous for number of days with a commit: http://s-z.org/crawl-stats/authors.html 02:55:25 |amethyst: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 02:56:15 -!- Aponym has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 03:01:53 -!- Kaput has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:04:59 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:11:17 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 03:12:55 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:14:20 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2184-gd9ab3cb: Change chimera to use ghost_demon object and implement resists 10(69 minutes ago, 8 files, 131+ 66-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d9ab3cbd745b 03:14:20 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2185-gca4d145: Tweak box of beast spawns 10(23 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ca4d1457852c 03:14:20 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2186-ga717e1d: Fix ghost demon version upgrade 10(61 seconds ago, 1 file, 28+ 20-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a717e1dbf8d0 03:18:44 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:24:32 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24:50 -!- Ajonos has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:25:06 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:28:24 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:33:54 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:27 -!- flowsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:35:08 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:35:23 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:17 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:41:49 -!- orionstein is now known as orionstein_away 04:01:35 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:41 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:12:12 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:13:53 -!- mason--- has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:17:06 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:02 -!- qoala has quit [Quit: sleep] 04:19:02 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:16 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:26:15 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:30:13 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:47 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:36:04 -!- dcss73842 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:39:46 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:42:31 -!- eggonlegs has quit [Changing host] 04:43:46 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:46:23 |amethyst: "ugly"? As hacks go, yours is worlds better than per-byte sleuthing. 04:46:24 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 04:46:52 Eino lives! Cool. 04:50:19 -!- Flex has quit [] 04:56:04 -!- eggonlegs has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:59:47 -!- dcss15112 has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 05:03:20 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:58 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Quit: night] 05:13:07 -!- jeffrom has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14:32 -!- nooodl_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15:53 -!- fdel is now known as Nexos_ 05:33:11 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 05:33:38 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:36:26 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:21 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:36 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:40 -!- eggonlegs has quit [Changing host] 06:15:31 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:16:19 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:18:07 -!- eggonlegs has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:19:30 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:26:52 -!- steve___ is now known as Guest73376 06:30:23 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:52 -!- eggonlegs has quit [Changing host] 06:30:52 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:42:32 -!- archaeo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:48:01 -!- Nexos_ is now known as fdel 07:03:24 -!- Guest73376 is now known as steve2 07:07:47 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 07:07:57 -!- dcss31996 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:12:53 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:14:49 -!- steve2 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:20:57 -!- twelwe has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:26:09 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:31:01 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:09 -!- steve___ is now known as Guest29830 07:33:29 -!- Guest29830 is now known as steve2 07:36:23 -!- blackcustard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:55 Inappropriate undead (zombies, simulacra) by Whales 07:43:13 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:45:37 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 07:47:52 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:53:41 -!- ZebTM has quit [] 07:59:12 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:00:47 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:04:52 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 08:05:33 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 08:05:47 -!- scummos has quit [Client Quit] 08:07:59 Ooh, nice stats page. 08:11:13 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:23:32 ? 08:29:42 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:31 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:34:43 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 08:36:09 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Quit: Wrong button bad with computers] 08:41:53 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:54:16 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:20 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:15 -!- leStahL has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:05:36 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 09:09:58 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 09:12:09 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:10 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 09:31:28 -!- nooodl_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:34 <|amethyst> alefury: If the ? was about "nice stats page", probably: 09:31:43 <|amethyst> ??gitstats[2] 09:31:44 gitstats[2/3]: http://s-z.org/crawl-stats/ — updated infrequently 09:32:30 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:38:24 -!- eggonlegs has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:39:08 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:40:31 -!- RZX has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 09:40:34 -!- geekosaur has quit [Excess Flood] 09:40:34 -!- Dr_Ke has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:41:14 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44:10 few commits on saturday, lots on sunday. neat 09:46:14 -!- dcss30342 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47:14 -!- dcss69607 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:49:28 -!- leStahL has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:38 -!- dcss76112 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:12 -!- dcss16927 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:25 -!- radinms has quit [] 10:09:17 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:19:55 -!- steve2 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:20:49 -!- steve___ is now known as steve2 10:31:11 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:18 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:37:48 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:27 -!- fdel is now known as Nexos_ 10:53:01 -!- mumra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:06 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:58:15 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 10:58:38 -!- orionstein is now known as orionstein_away 11:02:55 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:10:10 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 11:10:10 <|amethyst> !tell dpeg http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/1hffns/dcss_why_do_they_keep_axing_races_left_and_right/ 11:10:12 |amethyst: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 11:14:58 edwinsage the Warrior (L14 OgHu) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 403 failed on turn 26374. (Shoals:1) 11:17:07 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:19:39 -!- edwinsage has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:05 I've got a crash bug on the CAO server to report, but the bug tracker seems to require some credentials I don't have. Where do I report it? 11:24:07 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:38 in some sense it already was reported :) 11:24:44 [01 12:14] edwinsage the Warrior (L14 OgHu) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 403 failed on turn 26374. (Shoals:1) 11:25:53 but at the top left of https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php you'll find the link to sign up for a mantis account 11:27:40 geekosaur: Ok. I've had the same crash happen a number of times, and it keeps resetting my game back some number of turns. Is this something I should report further, or is it enough that it shows up here? 11:28:05 edwinsage the Warrior (L14 OgHu) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 403 failed on turn 26378. (Shoals:1) 11:28:16 reporting on mantis means it's not missed if none of the devs here are around or can look at it when it happens 11:28:54 also see the directions for making a save backup when you file the mantis report 11:30:49 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 11:31:11 edwinsage: was this shortly after you killed kirke by any chance? 11:31:15 -!- mumra_ is now known as mumra 11:34:08 mumra: Yes, the first few times (a couple weeks ago), it was several turns after killing Kirke. This time, it's as soon as he (she?) dies. I've let the save game sit around for a while. 11:35:47 -!- pantaril_ has quit [Client Quit] 11:35:48 kind of a silly thought, but why doesn't the character select screen highlight easy races? 11:36:27 there isn't really any such thing as an easy race ... 11:36:54 edwinsage: this problem seems to happen every few days and i can' 11:37:00 well then how about we gray out the harder ones! 11:37:15 heh 11:37:22 i can't figure out why, some sort of mindex/mid corruption due to the hogs-to-humans transformation 11:37:28 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 11:38:28 buppy: i assume you're talking about some way to communicate "recommended races for beginners" -- but that is basically minotaur 11:38:40 do you want to grey out all races except minotaur? 11:38:56 mumra: Is it? It only happens to me after Kirke is dead. I got transformed probably 4 times in one of those crashes, but nothing went wrong until the turn I killed Kirke. 11:39:16 edwinsage: yeah it's the hogs-to-humans effect that runs when kirke dies 11:39:29 mumra: it was sort of a reply to this comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/1hffns/dcss_why_do_they_keep_axing_races_left_and_right/catu9gr 11:39:30 it transforms her hogs and anything else still transformed back to their original state 11:40:04 minotaurs, hill orcs, elves, kobolds, and humans are pretty good for beginners I think 11:40:31 buppy: doesn't seem to have anything to do with that reddit thread ... 11:41:05 > In part this is to keep down the interface burden and cognitive load: the character selection is a little overwhelming for new players 11:41:05 just grey out mummies 11:43:03 meh, maybe there's no point. I'm just kinda curious. 11:43:09 buppy: minotaurs and spriggans are probably the only two races i'd specifically recommend for new players, it seems kind of pointless to do so 11:43:31 and even spriggans cause problems with food management so ... 11:45:28 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:56 todo: figure out what races/roles/characters are used most for first wins 11:46:37 MiFi, SpEn 11:46:44 my first win was actually a demonspawn of jiyva. this was after 500 spriggan deaths 11:46:50 MiBe is almost certainly up there too. 11:46:57 maybe DDNe but only because of silly badwiki guide 11:48:35 Grunt: even better would be to figure out what combinations teach you to be good the fastest 11:48:53 That's more dependent on the player than the combo. 11:49:36 -!- Arendeth has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:45 how do i get sound enabled? 11:51:42 Arendeth: do you have a sound pack? 11:51:59 ya and i have #define WINMM_PLAY_SOUNDS enabled 11:52:20 is there a way to get statistics of each combination's win rate? 11:52:28 Arendeth: i've never tested that on MSVC; the only sound pack i've seen was really crummy 11:52:42 Arendeth: honestly i would advise an msysgit compilation 11:52:53 ya i found a less annoying sound pack 11:53:15 Arendeth: why don't you use the builds from the crawl website? 11:53:15 edwinsage the Warrior (L14 OgHu) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 403 failed on turn 26378. (Shoals:1) 11:53:44 becuase the developement builds don't have sound enabled 11:53:51 -!- CeleryMan has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:49 mumra: Alright, is this character woroth keeping around, or shouldn't I expect it to be salvageable? 11:55:00 *worth 11:55:20 edwinsage: is the crash happening literally every time you kill kirke? 11:55:38 edwinsage: can you make a backup of your save so i can try to reproduce the problem 11:55:47 think i need to somehow link winm 11:55:49 mumra: Yep, otherwise I'd have moved on by now. 11:55:51 edwinsage: and then if you want to continue playing just avoid killing kirke ... 11:56:23 edwinsage: although with a save backup i might be able to fix the problem 11:56:25 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:45 mumra: Does that just need a character dump (by pressing '#')? 11:58:59 edwinsage: no, you have to log in via terminal and select the save backup option from the menu 12:01:01 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:18 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:39 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:07:51 -!- rchandra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:43 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:48 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:17:17 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2186-ga717e1d (34) 12:17:40 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:03 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:19 hmm, this looks confusing to me: 12:19:20 f - a +1 rod of inaccuracy (10/10) 12:19:20 k - a +0 rod of inaccuracy (13/13) 12:19:40 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:21 hmm, and I've another +0 with just (9/9) 12:20:48 oh, I guess recharge rate and max charges are tracked separately? 12:25:21 ??void 12:25:22 I don't have a page labeled void in my learndb. 12:26:27 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:29:52 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:07 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:33:01 ??fly 12:33:03 fly[1/1]: Indicates you're flying. If it's blue (or dark blue for low duration), means you're a tengu and thus are receiving a 1 point speed boost. If it's pink (or purple), means you're not. See also {flight}. 12:33:08 ??flight 12:33:09 flight[1/3]: Level 3 Charms/Air. Grants flight for its duration. 12:33:12 ??flight[2] 12:33:12 flight[2/3]: kryft: think of flight like... kryft: a treadmill and the treadmill is hovering and it goes forwards when you walk on it also the treadmill lets you pick up things from the floor 12:33:17 ??flight[3] 12:33:18 flight[3/3]: Flying also increases your stealth a bit, and causes Airstrike to hurt more. 12:33:22 ??+Fly 12:33:23 fly[1/1]: Indicates you're flying. If it's blue (or dark blue for low duration), means you're a tengu and thus are receiving a 1 point speed boost. If it's pink (or purple), means you're not. See also {flight}. 12:34:22 * SamB realizes that he's just water-walking ... 12:36:37 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:38:14 -!- orionstein is now known as orionstein_away 12:39:04 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:27 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:43:29 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:00 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:53 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:50:44 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:43 -!- hhkb has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 12:52:42 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 12:56:53 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:03 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 12:57:05 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 12:57:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:04 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:17 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:12 SamB: yeah i noticed that thing with rods while i've been working on them 13:07:29 SamB: tbh it's counterintuitive and even spoilery 13:07:38 what is? 13:08:03 -!- Nexos_ is now known as fdel 13:09:03 basically some rods are better than others even with the same enchantment level; i.e. they have a higher number of charges 13:09:14 -!- smajdalf has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:12:38 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:14:27 why does that happen 13:14:58 -!- alefury|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:03 nicolae-: well i could tell you the technical reasons aka how it is programmed, but as to *why* it was done that way ... rods apparently were one of the first new things added when stone soup was originally branched, my guess is nobody has dared look at the code since then ;) 13:17:12 ah 13:17:13 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:58 are you going to make the charges more dependent on enchantment level then 13:18:16 nicolae-: but yeah it's pretty bad, there is basically a hidden plus value that lets you have more max charges, but you can't change this value with scrolls 13:18:29 ouchy 13:18:36 ah 13:18:38 so when you find a rod you never know if it's the best possible rod of that type or not 13:18:44 -!- Poncheis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:49 well that seems silly! 13:19:13 nicolae-: well i hadn't really considered changing this aspect yet, but it's certainly silly, i just don't really know what to do about it (or what it's really supposed to achieve!) 13:20:24 probably to make rods more varied i guess 13:20:44 yeah, it's not a very interesting way to vary them though 13:20:56 grunt's randrods would achieve that better for instance 13:21:13 how are those coming along 13:21:17 scroll of add charges 13:21:27 scroll of better plusses 13:21:39 scroll of doubleplusgood 13:22:00 scroll of orb 13:23:19 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:24:45 randrods!!!!! 13:24:50 exciting 13:25:49 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:26:02 well he got the basic concept up and running but then i think the whole discussion of "what the hell are rods and what should they do" came up 13:26:24 i like rods because i used a couple on a MiBe to great effect 'cause trog doesn't care 13:26:56 what evo did you have? 13:27:25 no idea 13:28:09 just wondering because i planned to make rods much less effective at low evo 13:28:45 but i'm not sure if this will just make people use them less (of course they could then be a bit _more_ powerful with good evo) 13:29:28 i had 6.6 evo when i bought it in zot 13:30:04 -!- Sky___ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:30:52 it does make sense that rods would need a skill investment instead of just being basically free spells that are trog and silence proof 13:30:59 yeah 13:31:13 under the new rules there would be a failure chance that scales up in a similar way to spell failure 13:31:20 but it doesn't use normal miscast effects 13:37:16 are there more rod-only spells 13:39:52 <|amethyst> mumra: btw, should summon swarm be capped? 13:40:07 <|amethyst> mumra: see #7287 13:41:00 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:42:11 it's not like you can cast it more than 3 times already 13:43:17 -!- dcss77017 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:49:23 how do I link in WINM 13:50:07 when using mysisgit 13:50:26 msysgit 13:52:16 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:58 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:54:36 fr: rod of firestorm 13:54:59 rod of rods 13:55:03 summons a rod 13:55:41 what does that rod do 13:56:01 it's just a rod 13:56:40 boring 13:56:53 or, alternately, have it be like one of these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_%28optics%29 13:57:19 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04:48 -!- edwinsage has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:05:27 -!- Alexor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:07 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:13:45 -!- emeraldemon has quit [Quit: emeraldemon] 14:15:00 nicolae-: i have a few designs for rod-only spells (so does kilobyte) 14:15:04 but i only coded 1 so far 14:15:16 on the other hand it is a pretty awesome one 14:15:26 it has a spread blast of pellets like a shotgun 14:15:40 and each consecutive shot increases the spread 14:15:41 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:12 oh cool 14:16:22 i like spells that only show up in a few places 14:16:43 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:16:48 yeah i think this is where rods can be cool, most of them are just boring collections of existing spells 14:17:11 but if they all had unique spells they'd be much more desirable 14:17:21 you stole kilobyte's idea huh 14:17:29 hmm 14:17:51 well we had the idea independently 14:17:54 mumra: just call it a shotgun 14:17:59 Rod of Buckshot 14:18:15 close enough 14:18:39 Rod of Dorokhlohe's Tomb and Projected Noise and Evaporate and Fulsome Distillation 14:18:45 rods are basically crawl's equivalent of guns 14:19:04 i was contemplating some kind of ammo item to recharge them with instead of recharge-over-time 14:19:10 but this would probably be stupid 14:19:24 probably 14:19:27 and then include rockets 14:19:30 and make doomsprint 14:19:50 nicolae-: shh, you'll uncover our secret plan 14:20:00 what secret plan *wink wink* 14:20:11 did anyone mention doom 14:20:18 nope. no one. 14:21:46 http://pastebin.com/sGYYHPnQ 14:21:50 shh 14:24:44 theme question: since tartarus was originally created to house the titans and giants after the titanomachy, would it fit the flavor to have titans in a tar vault/entry vault, or should i stick to demons and dead things 14:24:59 (this will either never get into crawl or be implemented one day without me realizing it) 14:25:13 nicolae-: Try undead titans and giants 14:25:21 undead titans don't really do anything, though 14:25:27 unknown monster: "zombie titan" 14:25:27 %??zombie titan 14:25:30 Bloax: not this time, no 14:25:32 titan zombie (07z) | Spd: 8 | HD: 20 | HP: 148-194 | AC/EV: 8/0 | Dam: 51 | 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(26), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1517 | Sz: Giant | Int: plant. 14:25:32 %??titan zombie 14:25:42 They hit hard and have lots of HP 14:25:44 ??doom 14:25:45 doom[1/2]: Doom! Doooooooom! 14:25:48 ??doom[2] 14:25:51 doom[2/2]: Where do you think we got Cacodemons from? 14:25:56 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:26:12 SamB: fr cacodemon tile 14:26:26 hmm? 14:26:51 Bloax: There's one in the unused files 14:27:06 Yes, of a Doom Cacodemon 14:27:06 i'm pretty sure it's mine 14:27:11 oh 14:27:14 derp 14:27:15 :I 14:29:03 But what's planned to be added/changed next? 14:29:13 lightsabers. 14:29:16 nice try 14:29:26 rod of lightsabers 14:29:35 evoke it and then the rod does damage in melee 14:29:38 more damage, i mean 14:29:51 Bloax: so you made this red ball with spikes on ? 14:29:51 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Tomato8b.png 14:29:57 <|amethyst> Lightli: let me push some tiles (of ontoclasm's to unused/) 14:30:02 Yep. 14:30:04 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:22 is it just me or does it occupy an awful lot of the tile? 14:30:31 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:37 also it seems like it lacks transparency 14:30:41 how can i make rest instant like webtiles and how do I get sound enabled 14:30:53 oh shit 14:31:18 Hm, no - transparency seems present. 14:31:52 maybe Emacs just isn't very consistant in how it shows that, then ... 14:32:06 <|amethyst> Arendeth: rest_delay = -1 you might also want travel_delay = -1 show_travel_trail = true 14:32:15 Try now? 14:32:49 As for size - well cacodemons ARE pretty big. :1 14:32:51 btw I was looking at the one in the tree 14:33:27 <|amethyst> Arendeth: as for sound, that's kind of kludgey right now I think (at least on Unix; I don't know if it's even supported with MSVC). mumra might know more about Windows sound? 14:33:28 Well I avidly use png optimizers and you never know if certain decoders break with that. 14:34:23 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Client Quit] 14:34:27 <|amethyst> Bloax: we have two particular ones that are recommended 14:34:27 we usually reoptimize ourselves, though I suppose if your optimizer did a better job then ours, ours would probably punt and use that ... 14:34:57 <|amethyst> Bloax: I have seen problems with some bit depthts, but I think those have been fixed 14:34:59 oh I heard there was a different recompressor that was supposed to be good 14:35:05 ScriptPNG is a nice collection of stuff. 14:35:21 <|amethyst> optipng -o4 -i0 -fix image.png 14:35:21 <|amethyst> advpng -z4 image.png 14:35:25 <|amethyst> is what we do 14:35:25 Though it does use Truepng which may or may not still bug out on stuff. 14:35:26 which is to say, someone mentioned it 14:35:41 I compiled it with msysgit with #define WINMM_PLAY_SOUNDS uncommented 14:35:59 how do I lnk winm? 14:36:19 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:36:22 <|amethyst> no clue :( 14:36:36 I couldn't find online where it was located or how to link it 14:36:41 <|amethyst> You might also need some rules in your config 14:36:52 <|amethyst> see "sound" in options-guide.txt 14:37:13 http://www.css-ig.net/scriptpng In case you're wondering. 14:37:14 <|amethyst> I don't think any devs have looked at sound in a long time? 14:38:03 ya a found a less annoying soundset online that someone put together 14:38:45 hmm, what's the win32 DLL for that called 14:38:51 as opposed to win16 I mean 14:41:45 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46:00 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2187-g158fd6b: Add two joke monster tiles to UNUSED/ (ontoclasm). 10(6 minutes ago, 2 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=158fd6b37200 14:46:02 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 14:46:43 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:46:52 hydrataur 14:47:22 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:47:50 oh god the hydrataur is one step closer to being added 14:48:02 <|amethyst> :P 14:53:29 how do I link winmm anyone know? 14:55:09 <|amethyst> Arendeth: was this 32-bit or 64-bit? 14:55:15 64 14:57:51 <|amethyst> Arendeth: someone says "This file should be part of the platform SDK. Look under your MSVS installation in directory VC\PlatformSDK\lib" 14:58:07 <|amethyst> Arendeth: I don't know about 64-bit though; this was at http://cboard.cprogramming.com/c-programming/110220-winmm-lib.html 14:58:33 <|amethyst> no idea if that will work with msys/mingw though 14:59:23 <|amethyst> supposedly there is a libwinmm.a available somewhere, but I don't know if that's in msys itself or what 14:59:27 <|amethyst> (for static linking) 15:01:32 <|amethyst> if you find something you'll need to build with something like make EXTRA_LIBS=/path/to/libraries/directory 15:01:36 <|amethyst> err 15:01:55 <|amethyst> make EXTRA_LIBS=-L/path/to/libraries/directory 15:04:23 i'm pretty sure it is literally impossible for me to spell KPROP: correctly on the first try anymore 15:05:18 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 15:05:19 -!- Alexor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:41 -!- eletious has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:05:45 <|amethyst> Arendeth: if you're still stuck and someone with more knowledge about it doesn't show up, you could try posting in the "technical support" section of the forums at https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/ 15:06:12 <|amethyst> Arendeth: that way at least you'd have a place you could put all the information to point people to 15:06:25 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:42 I read that its somewhere in msvs install 15:06:51 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: you don't happen to know about building with sound on Windows do you? 15:07:12 Not a clue, sorry 15:08:27 <|amethyst> !tell mumra Arendeth (now building with msys) was looking for and failing to find how to link against libwinmm for sound 15:08:28 |amethyst: OK, I'll let mumra know. 15:08:58 <|amethyst> "msys" and "msvs" are too similar-looking :) 15:09:06 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:09 when I can find where it is and how to link I will 15:09:42 winmm.dll is someone in msvs apparently 15:09:54 <|amethyst> Arendeth: it might be .lib if it's a static library 15:10:26 don't know if it there is a static library of it... 15:10:28 Any plans to push any of the tiles I did yesterday? 15:10:42 <|amethyst> Bloax: which ones again? 15:10:58 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=115320#p115320 15:11:28 -!- sbanwart has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:11:32 <|amethyst> Bloax: would you mind posting some pictures of them in action? 15:12:03 <|amethyst> Bloax: I'm not sure about the darkness of bog bodies 15:12:13 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:53 <|amethyst> Bloax: but would have to see them in swamp and possibly the vaults to use them to know for sure 15:13:03 <|amethyst> !seen ontoclasm 15:13:03 I last saw ontoclasm at Sun Jun 30 06:45:32 2013 UTC (1d 13h 27m 31s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: Leaving.'. 15:13:07 im searching for the static lib right now with an alternative explorer program 15:13:21 Unfortunately I can't really show them in action. 15:13:27 with cubic explorer 15:13:41 <|amethyst> Bloax: oh, no way to build tiles locally 15:13:43 <|amethyst> ? 15:13:53 Pretty much. 15:14:16 Bloax: I think the ugly things look great, but the other two seem a bit 'crowded' and indistinct (and dark) 15:14:28 <|amethyst> Bloax: bug ontoclasm about it next time you see him; or putting them on mantis might not be a bad idea 15:14:37 The brown ugly thing could probably stand to be more brown, though 15:14:51 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:15:01 It looks a bit like it's actually dark grey to me 15:15:11 It's tan. 15:15:31 and doom tan of all things 15:15:40 found them its in windows kits 15:15:47 Yes, possibly. But I don't think it's nearly as distinct from the white one as it could be 15:15:52 If they weren't actually standing next to each other 15:16:00 lastest version in 8.0 kit 15:16:09 The darkness problem of the two others I'd say is more of a thematic problem. 15:16:32 Because it's a PLAGUE SHAMBLER and a dead body marinated in swamp waters for god knows how long. 15:16:44 I am pretty sure that is not a limitation on making them visually clear 15:16:48 If a SHADOW can be visually clear 15:17:09 (shadows can use fancy colors) 15:17:11 for 64 bit windows 7 its located at C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\8.0\Lib\win8\um\x86 15:17:37 just need to add it to the needed libraries to link 15:17:45 <|amethyst> Bloax: it's just that we have really dark floor tiles in a lot of places, so some sacrifices have to be made for user interface :) 15:17:51 -!- dfdf_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:18:00 can you add that to readme? 15:18:18 -!- Kromgart has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:22 Well I can't really say much on whether they're too dark. 15:18:23 add for windows they need to link winmm.lib 15:18:23 <|amethyst> Bloax: that said, I haven't looked at Swamp or Crypt in tiles for a while so I don't know whether there's actually a problem or not 15:18:26 Arendeth: actually I think you just need -lwinmm ? 15:18:32 found in the developement kits 15:18:44 <|amethyst> SamB: you have to make sure that's in your library path 15:18:49 <|amethyst> SamB: I guess 15:18:56 well, at least my MinGW install has that already 15:19:00 Just looking at the floor.png with the bog body pasted over randomly it seems quite fine. 15:19:07 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:20:02 <|amethyst> SamB: are you using the same msysgit net installer that is recommended in INSTALL.txt? 15:20:40 |amethyst: honestly no 15:20:45 <|amethyst> Bloax: then I might be bikeshedding over nothing :) 15:20:55 Well just this one is quite bright. 15:21:09 It looks pretty dark against a white background but that's because it's white. 15:21:40 <|amethyst> Bloax: maybe it's just the paper-white BG on the tavern post that makes me think it's so dark 15:21:44 <|amethyst> yeah 15:22:14 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/bogshambler.png 15:22:46 Most of the tiles I do seem to have a common problem. 15:22:55 which is that they're far too detailed compared to most tiles 15:23:02 |amethyst: do you not have a /mingw/lib/libwinmm.a 15:23:04 ? 15:23:05 <|amethyst> yeah, the highlights do stand out pretty well there, and the shambler is a lot more clearly red 15:23:16 <|amethyst> SamB: I don't have a Windows dev machine 15:23:23 right 15:23:29 I had two paths to take with the shambler 15:23:31 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/BogBodyShambler1.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/BogBodyShambler2.png 15:23:38 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:39 I wouldn't exactly call this a dev machine really 15:23:43 <|amethyst> SamB: (well, I have one, but it's a work computer so no Crawl dev there) 15:23:50 But decided on the latter because bright-ish red stands out quite good to the gray crypt. 15:24:12 actually it's more of a USB stick 15:24:18 <|amethyst> wouldn't want my employer claiming copyright on my Crawl contributions :) 15:24:38 you know we don't have a policy against that 15:24:42 that'd be stupid 15:24:42 we aren't GNU 15:24:52 <|amethyst> SamB: yeah, but my employer does 15:24:55 ah 15:25:01 and they would, just to be dicks....following the policy of most employers anyway 15:25:12 <|amethyst> well, it's a university 15:25:16 <|amethyst> so IP is kind of their thing 15:25:18 -!- steve2 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:25:21 uh huh 15:25:46 Universities seem infamous for their IP dickery. 15:26:04 <|amethyst> well, as long as I don't use university resources and do it on my own time it's fine 15:26:12 <|amethyst> which is better than some employers 15:26:20 Though truth to be told I have no idea how I made that bog body like that. 15:26:39 I wonder why this book my one teacher wrote and left publicly-readable in his homedir is copyright by the publisher and not, say, the school then 15:26:46 <|amethyst> If I were faculty that might be different 15:26:50 yeah, i just had to sign off on some thing about how the university owns all my IP 15:26:54 for various instances 15:26:54 where do I place -lwinmm in makefile? 15:27:23 possibly he didn't actually use the school resources for making the book but deliberately left it there for poor students? 15:27:39 or so they could look at the excised exercises 15:27:57 ah yes "Inventions, Copyrightable Works (including Exempted Scholarly Works), and Tangible Research Materials" 15:28:04 <|amethyst> SamB: Usually you're expected to sign over that stuff to the publisher, but I don't know the legal details of why I can sign off on that rather than the university doing so 15:28:23 "except as otherwise provided in a written agreement between me and the University" 15:28:28 roars (L20 LOFE) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 614: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) (Vaults:1) 15:28:42 I wonder if they own the copyright even on the exercizes, or if the school or teacher still has that 15:28:44 so judging from my contract here, it requires university sign-off anyway 15:28:55 <|amethyst> (and if it's open-access, I think you rather than the university usually keeps the copyright but I'm not 100% sure 15:29:07 it's not really open access 15:30:12 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:30:21 <|amethyst> SamB: what in particular? 15:30:37 any student in the course could access it if they knew it was there, though ... though I doubt many would have a clue how to actually typeset it 15:31:08 Linux Assembly Language Programming by Bob Neveln 15:31:55 <|amethyst> SamB: well, the book is likely to be considered an academic work; and if not, possibly the university took a buy-out or just wasn't interested 15:32:40 <|amethyst> and academic works have their own strange rules at most places specifically because of the publishing issue 15:33:05 yeah, i think specifically for textbooks in particular 15:33:15 <|amethyst> as I understand it, universities pass over IP all the time even when they have first "dibs" 15:33:37 * ProzacElf loves the way he turned the phrase "specifically in particular" 15:34:30 <|amethyst> really patents are the bigger issue 15:34:49 for some reason the publisher doesn't seem to have wanted the exercises though 15:34:52 <|amethyst> or the ones they're most interested in 15:35:38 <|amethyst> SamB: maybe the author made a special arrangement for those? 15:36:09 <|amethyst> SamB: I know one of the CS profs here has put PDFs of his old textbooks up for at least his students 15:36:31 by "special arrangement" do you mean "scripts that build a copy of the sources with excercises stripped out" 15:36:39 i think the author retains permission to use them for his classes generally 15:36:57 but i'm unclear on it really 15:37:43 <|amethyst> SamB: oh, perhaps the author left them out deliberately to try to garner royalties :/ 15:37:58 <|amethyst> SamB: I was minsunderstanding the situation you were describing 15:38:01 which was then used to make the actual book, I mean 15:38:02 are we seriously arguing over a shambler tile 15:38:14 wait that was earlier duh 15:38:22 the book doesn't have the exercises in, but the pristine sources do 15:38:22 <|amethyst> SamB: oh, the paper copy is without exercises and the PDF in his home dir had them? 15:38:27 <|amethyst> SamB: oh wow 15:38:28 what PDF 15:38:40 I never said he had a PDF in his homedir 15:38:46 oh wait. that's kind of cool. 15:38:50 MinGW has file needed but the recommended msysgit does not have it so I transfered it the includes and library from MinGW 15:39:07 <|amethyst> SamB: I misread that too :) 15:39:20 well I never really said what form it was in, sorry 15:39:51 <|amethyst> ftp://ftp.cs.uky.edu/cs/manuscripts/vade.mecum.2.pdf 15:39:56 <|amethyst> 1988 OS textbook 15:40:11 <|amethyst> linked to from his home page so I guess it's not just for students 15:40:19 nice ftp:// 15:40:23 <|amethyst> heh 15:40:32 it's quite possible the copy in his homedir was intended only for his own use, but he forgot to make the tree unreadable by other users 15:40:54 <|amethyst> SamB: that happens too 15:41:20 seems kind of likely if he never let it really be known 15:41:44 <|amethyst> I found a TA with a world-writable .bashrc once 15:41:54 <|amethyst> I let them know about it privately of course 15:42:00 heh 15:42:16 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:28 as far as I know I was the only student in the class with the knowledge to actually build it 15:42:42 <|amethyst> (while I was a student, not an instructor, so I was nervous about even mentioning it) 15:42:57 <|amethyst> "why were you looking?" etc etc 15:43:06 <|amethyst> but they were nice about it 15:45:11 <|amethyst> SamB: now I see what you mean by "not really open access" 15:45:32 <|amethyst> SamB: because, yes, it would be cool if you had to publish the source of your papers 15:45:40 <|amethyst> etc 15:45:49 |amethyst: did you let them know about it privately by having their shell helpfully print a message on startup? 15:46:09 heh....maybe he left it readable as an easter egg for people who both found it and could figure out what to do with it =P 15:46:51 <|amethyst> elliott: I considered it and tested a mockup on my computer, but I resisted the temptation 15:47:01 terrible 15:47:10 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:47:36 <|amethyst> elliott: it would have printed a message, chmodded the script, and removed itself 15:47:40 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:47:48 maybe it should have just skipped the message :) 15:47:53 <|amethyst> yeah :) 15:48:18 but that wouldn't teach them anything 15:49:13 admittedly it's much less scary in terms of "why were you poking in my home directory" 15:49:47 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 15:51:12 <|amethyst> yeah, it would be unquestionably unauthorized access 15:53:42 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 15:54:22 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:56:54 * SamB wonders why we have both SHOW_ITEM_ and DCHAR_ITEM_ 15:57:13 oh, I guess because DCHAR_ITEM_ is just part of DCHAR_ ... 15:57:16 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:57:47 Ellick (L2 KoHe) (D:2) 15:58:05 -!- Duralumin has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:58:12 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:59:05 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:01:23 oh, are there options that depend on the order of the DCHAR_ enumerators ? 16:03:18 <|amethyst> I don't think so, just that they're contiguous starting at zero and ending at NUM_DCHAR_TYPES-1 16:03:44 <|amethyst> I don't *think* they're marshalled anywhere but I might be wrong 16:05:24 Crawl needs a type system that tags types that get marshalled :) 16:06:22 <|amethyst> elliott: bh keeps pushing for protobufs 16:06:31 that wouldn't do it would it 16:06:57 I think elliott means we should have a typeclass for types that we serialize 16:06:58 <|amethyst> elliott: it had that at one point and still has vestiges, but the problem is that the "types" were huge and monolithic 16:07:24 <|amethyst> elliott: e.g. "player", "level" 16:07:30 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 16:07:36 <|amethyst> that's why they're called tag_read_* 16:07:55 |amethyst: ah, I don't quite mean like that. 16:08:09 <|amethyst> elliott: I assume you meant "int", "short", etc 16:08:14 I mean more like the way the types would be declared would differ from ones that get serialised or not so you can tell at a glance. 16:08:23 and if you try to serialise one that isn't declared as serialised it would fail. 16:08:25 should crawl be strongly or weakly typed 16:08:27 so we could just look for an instance of Saved Foo for a given type Foo if we wanted to know if it showed up in the serialization 16:08:38 so you could tell from inspection whether you have to care about serialisation for a given type. 16:08:41 since that comes up a lot 16:08:59 okay, well, what elliott is suggesting seems beyond Haskell 16:09:03 IOW, I guess I'm speaking more of a kind system than a type system. 16:09:14 I wonder what elliott thinks we should write in that could support this 16:09:25 no idea. 16:09:33 surely elliott is not suggesting we should have our very own programming language! 16:09:37 Crawl can want a language without it existing! 16:09:43 with a truly custom typesystem 16:09:51 though what Crawl really wants is anything other than C++, methinks. 16:09:57 <|amethyst> Each monster type should be a class 16:10:04 <|amethyst> with monsters instances of those classes 16:10:06 <|amethyst> same for items etc 16:10:15 did you think this was Unreal 16:10:16 |amethyst: yeah, that's one way language support for serialisation would actually help crawl a lot 16:10:19 <|amethyst> dynamically generate your type hierarchy from data files 16:10:33 you have to change code a *lot* if you want to go from something designed in the nicest way not caring about serialisation, 16:10:36 to something you want to serialise. 16:10:42 <|amethyst> I did something similar in python but never got very far 16:10:45 you can make a roguelike codebase look a hell of a lot nicer if you give up on save files 16:10:56 brogue just gives up and stores all your keypresses 16:11:00 <|amethyst> certainly didn't deal with saves 16:11:07 that would not work with Crawl 16:11:17 well, it could work, but it wouldn't work well 16:11:18 <|amethyst> I hear it doesn't always work with brogue either 16:11:22 indeed 16:11:41 now what you need then is a type system that can enforce safe use of the RNG so that... can you tell I like type systems? 16:12:00 they should clearly not have used IO so much in brogue 16:12:20 <|amethyst> elliott: you could turn your code into a persistent data structure 16:12:35 what, you mean like Smalltalk? 16:12:42 |amethyst: I'm assuming you mean the *other* kind of persistent data structure here 16:12:51 you want to write a roguelike in *smalltalk*? 16:13:05 (i.e., not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure) 16:13:07 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13:08 <|amethyst> elliott: I mean, never remove code for old versions, so you can execute according to the correct version 16:13:22 oh, so no then 16:13:26 <|amethyst> elliott: no, I mean the thing you linked to :) 16:13:29 |amethyst: sort of like crawl servers do ;) 16:13:41 brogue just doesn't care about save compat 16:13:43 <|amethyst> elliott: well, hopefully with less duplication 16:13:45 since games are short and releases are rare 16:13:53 (well, not that rare, but nothing like crawl trunk) 16:14:27 does the b stand for brief ? 16:14:42 -!- alheris has quit [Client Quit] 16:14:51 <|amethyst> essentially a VCS is storing your code in a persistent data structure 16:15:02 <|amethyst> it's just not something you can build :) 16:15:23 any of you ever had to touch clearcase as a vcs? 16:15:27 it's horrific 16:15:33 i have to use it at my current work 16:16:02 <|amethyst> worse than using raw RCS? 16:16:06 <|amethyst> I did that once 16:16:16 I used to do that for papers 16:16:25 <|amethyst> I guess bad in different ways, since it's IBM 16:16:59 <|amethyst> SamB: when I was in high school and an early undergrad I used *roff for papers :/ 16:17:21 <|amethyst> with RCS as my VC when I used it at all 16:17:31 i've never used rcs itself 16:17:32 I was using LaTeX 16:17:33 RCS is kind of okay for a single file 16:17:48 single author single file 16:17:50 and tended to use RCS since it integrates nicely with Emacs 16:17:50 right 16:17:57 IIRC CVS originated as a shell script that just did RCS on a bunch of files 16:18:00 horrifically 16:18:01 <|amethyst> SamB: LaTeX was too big for me to feel comfortable installing at first (I downloaded onto floppies over dialup) 16:18:08 I see 16:18:34 was cvs released before clearcase 16:18:50 bc if so there's no reason this company should be on the ibm solution 16:19:28 -!- Camicio has quit [] 16:19:32 <|amethyst> Dixlet: yes, 1990 as opposed to 1992 16:20:03 <|amethyst> Dixlet: but clearcase is almost certainly built on older technology (maybe not older than the RCS that CVS is based on) 16:20:05 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:20:14 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 16:20:15 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 16:20:44 <|amethyst> RCS was 1982 and SCCS (the proprietary software it aimed to replace) in 1972 16:20:53 <|amethyst> s/ in// 16:22:22 I don't know exactly when I started using LaTeX, probably early '00s 16:22:43 <|amethyst> SamB: about the same for me; my first publication was 2000 I think 16:22:54 I don't know if it was that early 16:22:58 <|amethyst> SamB: I used groff in 97 or so 16:23:00 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 16:23:31 we scared nicolae away 16:23:50 I think I installed Debian from CDs I had mailed to me in '03 16:24:12 and I guess the only other time I installed Debian was when I installed the Hurd 16:24:44 <|amethyst> Never played with Hurd 16:25:01 I didn't do a whole lot since I'm not a fan of rebooting 16:25:03 <|amethyst> read quite a bit about it 16:25:25 <|amethyst> SamB: that situation should be much improved these days 16:25:30 <|amethyst> what with desktop VMs 16:25:37 possibly if I had a system of today 16:25:40 <|amethyst> heh 16:26:01 Arendeth: if you've made any changes to the source or sln in order to get any of these bits building (e.g. contribs and 64bit version as well as the sound stuff) it'd be good to reintegrate any of those changes back into crawl btw 16:26:02 mumra: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:26:07 !messages 16:26:08 (1/1) |amethyst said (1h 17m 39s ago): Arendeth (now building with msys) was looking for and failing to find how to link against libwinmm for sound 16:26:48 <|amethyst> mumra: do you happen to know if the mingw one is open-source? 16:26:54 <|amethyst> mumra: if so we should put it in contribs 16:27:02 mingw what 16:27:09 <|amethyst> libwinmm 16:27:10 I did manage to find it in mingw 16:27:38 it's just import stubs 16:28:06 <|amethyst> you need the MS one too? 16:28:11 transfered the includes and the one library to msysgit 16:28:20 I know where that one is 16:28:23 well, yeah, also headers 16:28:37 you need a DLL 16:28:40 -!- Eletious has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:28:43 which comes with Windows 16:28:45 ya headers in the includes folder :P 16:29:03 Arendeth: not correcting you, correcting myself 16:29:32 <|amethyst> SamB: right, but do you need any stuff that doesn't come with windows or mingw to link against and use it? 16:29:47 why would you? 16:30:09 <|amethyst> I dunno 16:30:43 hmm, looks like I've finally got runes their own glyph now 16:30:52 <|amethyst> can we redistribute the mingw headers and library stubs for that? 16:31:17 <|amethyst> so that users of msysgit (which is what we recommend) can get sound 16:31:29 huh, maybe i should use the hydrataur tile for chimera until something better exists 16:31:35 the library needed for MSVS is winmm.lib that is found in the development kits 16:31:40 well, probably we'd want to distribute the .def file or whatever mingw builds it from ? 16:31:52 <|amethyst> SamB: right, and build scripts 16:32:22 I guess we might need Platform SDK for MSC builds 16:32:23 think development kit 8.0 has the lastest version 16:32:35 <|amethyst> alternatively, if there's some package we could tell msysgit users to install 16:32:40 <|amethyst> hm 16:32:47 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:47 does msysgit have a package system? 16:33:10 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 16:33:24 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 16:33:40 <|amethyst> SamB: I assumed that's what "netinstall" was about but maybe that's by debian prejudice showing :) 16:34:04 after the long build process I'll see if pasting the includes and the library fixes it 16:34:46 I think it means "this installer is just a stub that downloads the rest from the net, so don't use this one if you want a self-contained installer" 16:35:01 trouble is that lastest version of msysgit is not the netinstall version 16:35:14 <|amethyst> SamB: remember, I've used msysgit approxiamtely once so I'm mostly talking out my ass :/ 16:35:21 <|amethyst> SamB: ah 16:35:32 which it also means in a Debian context 16:35:50 think mingw has a netinstall package installer though 16:35:52 except in Debian if you really only want a very basic install it works fine 16:36:18 and why only a basic install :P 16:36:30 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:36 ignore that rambling about Debian 16:37:27 <|amethyst> SamB: yeah, I was probably incorrectly assuming that, as in debian, the netinstaller is a base install that bootstraps itself (and that that would involve using a package management system to handle the new vs old stuff) 16:37:42 <|amethyst> but since there's a host OS I guess that's not necessary 16:38:24 <|amethyst> I was also thinking of cygwin, which I've used a little more 16:38:30 <|amethyst> (still not much) 16:38:53 yes that certainly has a package system 16:43:38 now why aren't we using æ or Æ for monsters again? 16:45:37 <|amethyst> SamB: because some people don't have fonts that support it, and unlike glyphs it can't be configured 16:45:52 hmm 16:46:08 03SamB 07* 0.13-a0-2188-g862ac03: Give runes their own default glyph (φ for now) 10(2 minutes ago, 5 files, 20+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=862ac03750b9 16:46:10 <|amethyst> SamB: (even if there were a fake language like dwarven for it, that wouldn't help e.g. the monster list) 16:46:15 I meant the moster glyphs, actually 16:46:20 moving the includes does not fix it 16:46:29 like why aren't their monsters that look like Æ 16:46:35 er. there 16:46:37 ill try compiling with mingw 16:46:49 uh 16:46:53 <|amethyst> SamB: well, I think we use a char for that 16:47:00 <|amethyst> SamB: for the base glyph 16:47:10 you know what, never mind 16:47:13 <|amethyst> SamB: we could reglyph it like we do trees though 16:47:30 unknown monster: "tree" 16:47:30 %??tree 16:47:40 can't place dummy monster: "animated tree" 16:47:40 <|amethyst> %??animated tree 16:47:59 <|amethyst> (it's '7' in mon-data.h) 16:48:16 dryad (087) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 56-84 | AC/EV: 6/12 | Dam: 10 | spellcaster | Res: 06magic(93) | Vul: 04fire | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 671 | Sp: awaken vines, awaken forest, minor healing (2d5) | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 16:48:16 <|amethyst> %??dryad 16:49:08 but I guess "reglyphing would be kludgy" is a good excuse 16:49:31 so people actually use "ascii" because of fonts? 16:50:00 maybe people will use ascii because φ is an awful rune glyph now 16:50:05 though yes it additionally looks terrible in this font 16:50:16 I said "for now" 16:50:38 I left the "let the bikeshedding begin" implicit 16:50:55 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:52:43 $ make 16:52:43 which: advpng: unknown command 16:52:43 which: pngcrush: unknown command 16:52:43 make -C rltiles all ARCH=mingw32 TILES=y 16:52:43 make[1]: Entering directory `/c/Users/Crawl/crawl-ref/source/rltiles' 16:52:44 make[1]: Leaving directory `/c/Users/Crawl/crawl-ref/source/rltiles' 16:52:56 -!- Sky__ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:53:12 anyway I guess I'm biased because I use a font that covers all of Plane 0 in Unicode 5.1. At least, some version does ... 16:53:15 errors with using mingw 16:53:36 elliott: if you've a better one that's in WGL4 and also CP437 16:53:48 CP437?? 16:53:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437 16:54:08 also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Glyph_List_4 16:54:26 also if you want a better one for "unicode" I don't know what we restrict that to 16:54:41 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/orangebrain.png whatcha say 16:54:44 <|amethyst> Something outside CP473 would work, we'd just need to use the ASCII glyph for char_set = ibm 16:54:51 <|amethyst> s/73/37/ 16:54:55 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 16:55:15 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:42 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 16:56:46 perhaps alpha or s-z would be better? 16:56:49 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:04 I know what CP437 is 16:57:33 well in viewchar.cc it says the "default" should work in CP437 16:58:25 <|amethyst> oh, hm 16:58:45 <|amethyst> I guess it's still an issue for (some?) Windows players 16:58:49 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 16:59:41 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:20 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:02:11 Arendeth: you were supposed to use the msysgit netinstaller here: http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/list?q=net+installer 17:02:25 maybe that version would have the audio libs already 17:02:59 Arendeth: kilobyte builds with mingw so he might be able to help more there 17:04:35 -!- pantaril has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:19 -!- orionstein is now known as orionstein_away 17:11:26 |amethyst: XP defaults might or might not be able to handle it 17:11:32 for console 17:11:45 where by "it" I mean non-CP437 17:11:57 I honestly don't remember what the default font was 17:12:09 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:12:40 and of course things would probably depend on the localization ... 17:20:09 good thread title "Replace summoning magic with evokables" 17:21:36 mumra, it looks like we're missing evilmike, but would you like to discuss SW damage sharing? 17:22:03 well it could probably do with input from more than just me and evilmike anyway 17:22:14 but no, i'm not sure if it's even necessary 17:22:47 evilmike said something like "if it really is necessary for balancing, better to lose some HP just when it dies and the bond is severed" 17:23:33 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:23:39 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:23:49 but really it's no more powerful than various other summons, battlesphere, etc.; so such a brutal balancing mechanic seems unneccesary 17:24:04 brutal when you're getting hellfired, at least :P 17:24:17 So the general idea was that it was too strong compared to summons, even though it was limited to 1 and only attacked with the owner. Primarily because it could scale with the player's ability and weapon. Even battlesphere doesn't scale as well. 17:24:23 and it certainly wasn't in the original design, i think lainiw added it? 17:24:36 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24:41 yeah, lainiw added it, but I liked it better than other things we tried to counterbalance. 17:25:41 fragility ended up making it die too easily, even when the player wasn't intentionally trying to make it tank. We considered but never got around to trying a backlash-on-unnatural-death. 17:25:58 the trouble is, it could make it too dangerous to use in many stages of the game 17:25:59 looks like winmm is enabled by default but only in mingw builds 17:26:30 it would be nice to use sdl-mixer instead 17:27:18 -!- y2s82 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 17:28:12 true. Though there's no requirement to cast it in every fight, and it can be immediately cancelled by switching weapons. 17:30:10 even if damage sharing wasn't used here, i have an idea for a summoning spell that it would be appropriate for, so hopefully none of your work would be wasted! 17:31:03 Yeah, I considered an even more drastic form in which not just the damage, but all effects were passed directly to the owner. It was definitely not for SW, but maybe for an allied clone of some sort. 17:31:19 my biggest concern is, since its ac/ev are different from the player, you could end up taking *significantly* more damage with SW up than without 17:32:45 The pre-implementation feedback of "I get to wield 2 fully enchanted Exec. Axes" is probably what most needs balancing. Since without some drawback, a lategame melee character considers it a no-brainer to multiply damage output upon finding the spell. 17:33:21 Though yes, the damage sharing certainly has potential to outstrip damage the player would take. 17:33:51 A clone-like spell which actually copies your AC/EV/resists would likely be a better fit for damage sharing. 17:33:55 this is why i suggested e.g. not copying the brand, which is conceptually kind of similar to what battlesphere does 17:34:16 qoala: summon doppelganger! 17:34:57 Even if it doesn't copy the brand, a +9 Exec Axe is still a really good damage source without being say holy or draining. 17:35:29 battlesphere does its own damage regardless of whether you trigger it with magic dart or LCS. 17:35:57 yeah maybe not copy the enchantments either (or divide them by some factor) 17:36:09 you're cloning the "spirit" of the weapon, not every physical detail of it 17:36:19 you can use that to justify pretty much anything :) 17:36:32 I didn't get around to playing a 15-rune newconj, but I was under the impression that battlesphere stopped being as good later since it checks AC separately. 17:36:55 but really the things to establish first are a) does it _definitely_ need a major balancing mechanism and b) how much does it need balancing 17:37:39 battlesphere is good for an incredibly long time 17:38:01 -!- lainiw has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:41:59 i think that spectral weapon requiring you to use open space effectively is already putting you in unneccesary danger (maybe the polearm-in-corridors thing should be prevented somehow) 17:42:31 like, it's probably still optimal to fight in a corridor without spectral weapon, if you're a really boring player 17:42:46 Well, you can still fight at the corner of a corridor, where you can field both you and your weapon, but they only can field one creature. 17:43:03 That's how I end up doing a lot of fights with non-polearm newskalds. 17:43:10 yeah 17:43:19 but if you're SW dies you can then get surrounded on two sides 17:43:35 Lightli: <3 <3 <3 <3 the E2M8 map 17:43:45 thank you 17:43:46 usually not, since they're unlikely to get both the killing blow and a chance to move into it. 17:43:57 Is it worthy of being in crawl 17:44:01 but yes, that is a concern. 17:45:19 does msysgit have the library needed for sounds to work? 17:45:23 So would we make spectral weapon both unable to reach past you and you unable to reach past it? The latter seems a little odd, but otherwise we need at least backlash to encourage not spending 3 mp for high-damage blockers. 17:46:44 i checked the includes but i can't find the audio library needed for sounds 17:47:13 Lightli: to get the clockworkdemon, we'd need just the "if you shoot, always shoot in the two subsequent turns as well" thingy, tall tiles work well already 17:47:14 Also, I just noticed that SW and dancing weapons don't display their plusses even if known (monsters wielding id-ed weapons do display plusses under 'x'), while inscriptions amusingly are. 17:47:22 heh 17:47:26 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:27 qoala: "3 mp for high-damage blockers" you mean like conjure flame? 17:48:08 (also it can't damage anything unless you're fighting) 17:48:24 (oh right, yes we're talking about reaching aren't we) 17:48:30 Well, the conjure flame doesn't do both high damage and provide safety vs the same monster, but that's a pretty good counterpoint. Might be the high strength of cloud splls though ;p 17:49:21 Although I had a friend able to consistently get both damage and safety through a combo of conjure flame and continuous butterflies. Probably doesn' work anymore. 17:50:19 Yeah, 3mp is probably worth being able to stand behind a spectral polearm and both attack for a few turns. If it dies and they move up, retreat switch with your polearm and repeat. 17:50:33 i see libwinmm.a in MinGW but not the other 17:50:40 it probably does still work, 8+ butterflies are probably more than enough for truly degenerate tactics ;) 17:51:20 think ill just compile it with msvs with manual linking to the development kit folder 17:54:37 about that rod of swarm report: I'd kind of expect it to work same as other spells. If you want no cap, what about giving it an entry but with a cap of 99, so the insects won't follow stairs? 17:54:42 less spoily this way 17:56:05 kilobyte: sounds reasonable 17:57:37 kilobyte: it could perhaps be capped anyway around 10 or so 18:00:30 kilobyte: i know rod of the swarm is popular but i actually think as a rod it should work in a more unique way, right now there's no reason why it shouldn't just be a normal summoning spell or a misc item 18:00:42 -!- Snarwin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:50 like i tend to think all rods should be targetted in some fashion, like wands are 18:02:45 well, my idea for the rod of striking has it not use the 'v' key at all 18:03:14 ie, SPELL_MELEE 18:03:56 well, that works for me in a different sense : you're still using the rod in a way that seems natural 18:04:44 presumably the reason you'd make a spellcasting rod would be if you needed to point the rod at something to fire the spell; but "needing to hit something with it" works too 18:05:07 so untargetted spells seem weird to me 18:05:13 but melee is still 'targetted' really 18:05:43 (having untargetted spells as secondary spells seems reasonable, e.g. olgreb's; but venom has other aimed spells) 18:06:05 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 18:07:12 -!- jday_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:07:39 I am not really sure I see why untargetted spells are necessarily out of place on a rod. Why should you HAVE to point it at something? 18:08:55 what are the reasons you would put spells on a rod rather than into a simple box with a button on it? 18:09:41 note: all wand spells are targetted, i am simply suggesting we should apply the same logic to rods, since they are both short sticks that cast magic 18:09:43 That seems like a very esoteric concern. Do YOU know how their magic works? The relevant thing about it being a rod is its use and recharge mechanics 18:09:54 The fact that it might be pointy seems sort of a side point 18:10:27 ok well why are all wand spells targetted? 18:10:32 It's not like summon swarm is some odd exception, either 18:10:43 There are several other untargetted rod spells 18:10:43 mumra: rods are about their mode of recharging, not about pointing at something 18:12:33 i think they could be about more than that; recharging alone doesn't distinguish their use from many other things 18:12:40 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:12:49 It seems like it does a fairly good job of distinguishing them from other items to me 18:13:04 the thing is, can you justify why "summon swarm" should be a rod spell rather than a summoning spell or a misc item? 18:13:47 (that question is easy to answer for "lightning rod") 18:13:59 I am genuinely unsure why this needs 'justifying'. Let's see... it's not a summoning spell so that it can be used by a different type of character and different skills, and it's not a misc item since the mechanics of it work the same as other rods, so why make it its own item? 18:14:36 I think making summon swarm a summoning spell would make it LESS interesting 18:14:37 the mechanics of the spell work the same as many summoning spells, so why shouldn't it be in a summoning book? 18:14:37 Not moreso 18:14:39 is the answer for "lightning rod" the name 18:14:44 beacuse then i could just ask why it's called lightning rod 18:14:53 and then you have to say, well it's a rod because pun 18:15:05 so then the game becomes coming up with a pun about swarms... 18:15:06 elliott: that's one of many justifications for lightning rod imo 18:15:59 DracoOmega: the thing is the lightning rod interacts in an interesting way with both the targetting mechanics and the recharge mechanism, whereas summon swarm is just a summoning spell that happens to be on a rod. i don't see anything about its mechanics that have anything to do with the recharge method. 18:16:09 I mean, if you're saying 'it summons things, so it should be a summoning spell instead' should we say that wands shouldn't exist since you could just cast them as conjurations instead. The fact that it does something relatively familiar but in a different package and with different usage limitations is relevant 18:16:19 DracoOmega: and yes, the arguments i'm using could be applied to many rods 18:16:28 DracoOmega: which is why i'd like to see a lot of rods change 18:16:54 keep inaccuracy though 18:17:02 DracoOmega: i was reversing your arguments; you're saying "it should be a rod because it works like other rod spells" 18:17:12 Well, the thing is that the recharge mechanism IS what makes it different than some other summon spell 18:17:43 mumra: That was meant in terms of 'why not make it a misc item' assuming it did the same thing it does not, since that would be confusing 18:17:52 s/not/now 18:19:27 DracoOmega: the misc evokers summon things but they do so in a cool and unusual way, there is every reason for them to be misc items; summon swarm doesn't do anything actually unusual; i'm just saying it could be better 18:19:33 There's no point in making it some non-rod misc item if it's going to function the same, and what exactly is wrong with the way that it functions that it should be made some other way? 18:19:35 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:19:43 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:36 DracoOmega: i was not actually suggesting making it into a misc item or anything else, you're misunderstanding my points 18:21:39 I'm not sure that I am, but I may be disagreeing with you nonetheless :) 18:21:48 At least it has seemed to me that you're essentially saying: a) it doesn't seem rod-like since it's untargetted and rods ought to be pointed at things b) It's a boring effect 18:22:44 i was saying "i think rods should be about targetted spells", not "rods _are_ about targetted spells", there is a difference 18:23:07 I actually think it's reasonable interesting as it's a renewable summon accessible to things without summon skill (who might also be with Trog, even!) that summons things normal spells can't, with differing skill investment 18:23:16 mumra: Yes, I realize this 18:23:23 i'm not saying it's an especially boring effect, just that it's not really any _more_ interesting than standard Summoning school spells 18:23:53 and i _don't_ like the idea of "rods should be spellcasting for people who can't cast spells" 18:24:00 Except for the fact that it differs from them in multiple tangible ways as a consequence of its delivery mechanism? 18:24:21 rods should offer something different to spellcasting 18:24:35 DracoOmega: yes but that applies to any spell that you slap onto a rod 18:24:52 Well, summon swarm already differs from spellcasting in that you can't normally cast this spell 18:25:08 I fail to see what's wrong with it being spell-LIKE 18:25:10 yes, and that's like the one thing in its favour 18:26:18 look, all the things are spell-LIKE, even lightning rod; but lightning rod is extremely different to normal spells, for reasons nothing to do with the mechanics of rods recharging 18:26:22 I don't even get what's the point in forbidding rods to have spells that occur elsewhere 18:26:44 _every_ wand effect is a spell, for example (even if one removed later) 18:26:54 kilobyte: I don't personally think there's anything wrong with some overlap. It's just that some of the rods are just boring/kinda bad anyway 18:27:37 a rod being boring: good reason. It having overlap with an existing spell: not a good reason. 18:27:58 kilobyte: i think rods having unique spells is just the obvious way to make them interesting 18:28:01 Yes, I certainly do not categorically oppose rods having spells available elsewhere 18:28:33 -!- Raycaster has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:28:33 neither do i, but right now the vast majority of rod spells are available elsewhere 18:29:10 so it's just a free MP-and-spell pool for characters who don't want to invest in magic 18:30:00 In any case, if 'make boring rods more interesting' is the end goal, I am not sure why rod of the swarm comes up first, given that it's widely agreed to be among the best rods from a design perspective from almost any other time this has come up 18:30:08 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:30:09 or can't (close to the only way troggies can get at spells) 18:30:18 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:29 DracoOmega: rod of the swarm came up in relation to the summons cap 18:31:13 <|amethyst> capping it just like summoning from spells seems best to me 18:31:40 Well, it's sort of capped on its own, just from the rod's mp limit 18:31:40 DracoOmega: this discussion got carried away with debating targetted vs untargetted but let me explain the idea i actually had for changing rod of the swarm 18:32:00 <|amethyst> (btw, are butterflies from ?uselessness counted towards your SB cap?) 18:32:36 DracoOmega: basically you can smite-target, like haunt, but the swarm appears around you and swarms towards the target; however, you can then *change* their target by subsequently evoking it 18:33:49 <|amethyst> that sounds cool 18:34:07 this to me seems more like a rod that you use and do stuff with, and the charge limit becomes relevant, rather than just a "give me allies again and again" button 18:34:18 <|amethyst> what happens when it's down to just a few bugs left though? 18:34:23 <|amethyst> or will it have two "spells"? 18:34:23 -!- Ur-Quan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:25 mumra: Won't it be hard for the player to know about this ability for evoc-controlling the swarm? 18:34:28 Is it just summoning the same stuff as now? 18:34:32 -!- marquess has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:34:34 |amethyst: make each evokation could top up the swarm numbers 18:34:34 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:36 I guess they just have to read the desription 18:34:42 why would it work inconsistently with regular ally control 18:34:50 Since I am not sure how making them targetted oddly makes it more interesting on its own 18:34:51 as it's nearly completely redundant with it 18:35:07 gammafunk: lightning rod has special mechanics communicated in the description too 18:35:35 kilobyte: true, the only difference is it doesn't cause noise like ally control, and you could use it when silenced 18:35:59 http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2012/03/25/10287354.aspx should help with setting windows to find the needed files for audio 18:35:59 'Can direct allies while silenced' has to be one of the most marginal advantages I have ever heard :P 18:36:15 with msvs 18:36:44 DracoOmega: i was not claiming it was a major advantage :) 18:38:00 although the fact that the MP pool limits how many targets you can use it on IS more relevant 18:38:05 In any case, making it produce seemingly-normal summons and then having them be controlled in a quirky way like this which bypasses normal ally controls feels to me like... well, to be honest, like making it different for the sake of making it different. I am not sure what value it is really adding. 18:38:55 DracoOmega: well yeah it could also use proper swarms if the proposal that's been around forever is ever implemented 18:38:59 <|amethyst> well 18:39:13 <|amethyst> if you could position you swarm at any *location* rather than monster 18:39:16 <|amethyst> that would be different 18:39:23 <|amethyst> in a perhaps interesting way 18:39:33 <|amethyst> summons as area denial 18:39:38 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:40 <|amethyst> s/you/your/ 18:39:40 |amethyst: Well, wasn't the way it was described that they still spawn around YOU, and then just move to the target in the normal way 18:40:16 DracoOmega: well yes but that target could still be a non-monster 18:40:26 i think is what |amethyst is saying 18:40:29 <|amethyst> yeah 18:40:36 <|amethyst> ta can only get them to follow a monster 18:40:44 <|amethyst> and tw can only get them to stay where they are 18:40:50 t "wait over there!" 18:41:00 <|amethyst> I guess it migth be too similar to tr 18:41:07 yeah, they could head to the targetted spot and swarm around that area, attacking anything in it 18:41:10 Well, I think in most cases if you actually want summons to block something, this could be easily accomplished otherwise 18:43:00 i do think this would feel different to normal summons anyway: normally summons appear around you, then you have to tell them to attack something; with this both the summoning and the direction are carried out in a single action 18:43:23 i mean, why does haunt need a different mechanism that ignores normal ally commands? 18:43:51 Well, they actually spawn AROUND the target for one thing 18:44:04 and can't be reused against anything else 18:44:48 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:44:53 <|amethyst> it sounded like this was "can't be reused against anything else without reusing charges" 18:44:57 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:45:02 <|amethyst> though I guess the area version wouldn't work that way 18:45:26 <|amethyst> s/reusing/using more/ 18:45:31 -!- fdel has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:45:37 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:45:37 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:46:17 Well, what happens in this theoretical summon swarm's cast when its target is dead. Do they just disappear unless immediately commanded to attack something else? 18:46:24 Or sit there like lumps? 18:47:34 well they could swarm around that area attacking anything that got close 18:48:03 (this was not a complete and detailed design btw, just an idea i was thinking about) 18:48:57 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2189-gace084b: Purge a never used desc for "iron tree". 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 0+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ace084bbeda0 18:48:57 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2190-g5fbfbfd: Don't include MSVC dirent emulation. 10(2 days ago, 2 files, 5+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5fbfbfd9c968 18:48:57 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2191-g3657459: Put the second clause of "if" in another line. 10(44 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=36574597fe15 18:48:57 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2192-gcb3a61d: Don't let summons from the rod of the swarm use stairs. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cb3a61df7614 18:50:23 -!- SudoNinja17_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:50:41 I'm 99.9% sure this doesn't break anything on actual msvc, but couldn't test. 18:50:47 (no msvc rig) 18:50:58 kilobyte: i will check 18:51:16 -!- myrmidette_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:51:29 are monsters intended to fireball each other? 18:51:31 it's not used anywhere, so no need to waste your time except for your next regular build 18:51:46 myrmidette_: if they hurt enemies more, yes 18:51:52 ok 18:51:53 <|amethyst> they do a cost-benefit analysis 18:51:57 <|amethyst> your allies do the same 18:52:02 what 18:52:03 Did the iron tree desc not get used for that one okawaru arena vault? (though the fact that it's not in use *now* is more salient) 18:52:07 <|amethyst> and can even kill you (there's a bug on mantis about that) 18:52:22 can I at least tell my allies not to hurt me under any circumstances? 18:52:38 <|amethyst> not currently, no 18:53:14 I think that's a bug 18:53:15 Unless it's battlesphere. Battlesphere is a nice ally in that regard :P 18:53:33 100% gaurenteed not to hurt you or your allies 18:54:03 <|amethyst> myrmidette_: as I said, it's on mantis, and we haven't closed it as "won't do" 18:54:09 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:55:26 <|amethyst> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3447 18:55:36 fr: Amusing ally speech when they do something that might hurt you 18:56:04 "Gammafunk! Hit the Deck!" 18:56:12 -!- Datul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:56:40 |amethyst: There's actually some stuff in the comments explicitly talking about how summoned demons deliberately are less apt to care about your health than other monsters 18:56:49 |amethyst: Though I am not sure how true this actually is in practice 18:58:39 from the mantis 18:58:43 i'm pretty sure bottled efreet deliberately don't care too. at least i've never had one that hesitated to use fireball 18:58:45 mumra: Reverse the roles again. You're in a corridor with a centaur but a rat is blocking his LOS. The centaur and the rat are allies. Should the centaur *not* shoot a wand at you because it might kill his allied rat? 18:59:23 <|amethyst> should depend on the centaur's god :) 18:59:29 -!- Duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:40 hehe 18:59:45 heh 18:59:51 Well, I'm running off for a few hours. I'll see more about removing SW damage sharing (and other changes) when I return. I think I've fixed dancing and spectral weapons failing to benefit from SPWPN_PROTECTION, by forcing a silent unwield and wield around the manual stat changes in monster::ghost_demon_init. 19:00:02 Centaur: I'm so sorry Mr. Whiskers! Noooooooo 19:00:53 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2193-gfade5f1: Properly set chimera speed and flight 10(9 hours ago, 2 files, 6+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fade5f174806 19:00:53 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2194-g109bb7a: Make chimera more talkative 10(9 hours ago, 3 files, 18+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=109bb7a77d15 19:00:53 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2195-g46145f2: Tweak chimera name display 10(8 hours ago, 5 files, 27+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=46145f21a918 19:00:53 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2196-gd04f6d4: Formatting fix 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d04f6d48e6db 19:02:19 mumra, does this make using Box of Beasts noisy now? 19:02:22 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:02:24 A centaur says "Mr. Rat you are my only friend!" 19:02:31 qoala: the chimera makes noise when it appears 19:02:45 but box of beasts wasn't exactly a massively stealthy item to use before :) 19:02:56 -!- eletious has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:03:21 just secretly release a few chimeras 19:03:24 no-one will notice 19:06:09 Well there's a difference between not particularly stealthy and "The golden dragon head roars. The dire elephant head trumpets. The wolf head barks." or however the chimera's component shouts are phrased. ;p 19:08:12 -!- qoala has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:00 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2197-gfd97f7f: Fix a typo in a comment (ChrisOelmueller) 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd97f7f4e841 19:10:59 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:13:43 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:14:23 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:52 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 19:17:51 -!- alefury|2 has quit [] 19:21:09 -!- Arendeth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:09 -!- Arendeth has joined ##crawl-dev 19:25:02 -!- Arendeth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:49 -!- Arendeth has joined ##crawl-dev 19:26:37 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:00 I compiled with the development kit libraries but it still doesn't fix the sound to coming up 19:28:16 anyone get the sound working for windows 19:28:30 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Redbacker.png 19:28:31 is this good enough 19:29:58 If that is supposed to be a new redback tile, I am fairly sure I like the present one more 19:30:33 how do I make resting instant? 19:30:54 <|amethyst> rest_delay = -1 19:31:04 <|amethyst> in your rcfile 19:31:06 <|amethyst> ??rcfile 19:31:07 rcfile[1/5]: Accessible via www: CAO: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/crawl-{0.7|0.8|0.9|0.10|git|lorcs}/$name.rc CDO: http://crawl.develz.org/configs/{ancient|0.6|0.7|0.8|0.9|0.10|trunk}/$name.rc CSZO: http://dobrazupa.org/rcfiles/crawl-{0.10|0.11|git}/$name.rc 19:31:11 <|amethyst> ??rcfile[2] 19:31:11 rcfile[2/5]: http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/docs/options_guide.txt; 19:31:13 <|amethyst> ??rcfile[3] 19:31:13 rcfile[3/5]: As of August 2012, 86.92% of cao trunk players use an unmodified rcfile 19:31:15 <|amethyst> ??rcfile[4] 19:31:16 rcfile[4/5]: Examples: http://crawl.develz.org/configs/trunk/MarvinPA.rc | http://dobrazupa.org/rcfiles/crawl-git/elliptic.rc 19:31:18 <|amethyst> ??rcfile[5] 19:31:18 rcfile[5/5]: CAO: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/crawl-git/name.rc, CDO http://crawl.develz.org/configs/trunk/name.rc, CSZO: http://dobrazupa.org/rcfiles/crawl-git/name.rc 19:31:19 <|amethyst> bah 19:31:29 <|amethyst> I don't know what the proper place for it on Windows is 19:31:42 <|amethyst> in Unix it's ~/.crawl/init.txt 19:31:46 dcss folder/settings/init.txt 19:32:25 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:33:06 03pubby 07* 0.13-a0-2198-g19f4286: Show nothing for 0 webtiles spectators in lobby. 10(17 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=19f42865efe6 19:34:39 buppy: Are you in CREDITS.txt already? 19:44:46 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:45:30 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48:50 Arendeth: did you see my comment about the msysgit netinstaller? 19:49:15 ya I downloaded that and used 19:51:38 what command line are you using? 19:51:40 ya amethyst i have it set in the init file 19:51:41 to build, that is 19:55:46 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:11 Seriously orc wizards shouldn't have confusion. 20:05:42 They appear early enough for it to always work and its duration is quite high. 20:05:58 And unless you're very lucky you'll be confused forever and die horribly. 20:06:08 Which is kinda dumb. 20:08:02 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:10:14 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:11:21 -!- Lightli_ is now known as Lightli 20:13:13 well I tried the using the webdownload version of msysgit to build it but that didn''t get the sound enabled and I tried linking windows 8.0 development library with msvs after that 20:13:48 I never normally die to them lol 20:14:22 -!- lainiw has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:33 I just kill them with my fire elemental 20:14:49 elementist anyway 20:15:24 good to balance out both conjuration and fire magic 20:16:50 does it matter where the rest_delay=-1 tweak is? 20:21:37 please don't change orc wizard spellset 20:21:38 thanks 20:21:41 anywher in your init file 20:22:11 Arendeth: did you use that netinstaller version of msysgit tho? 20:22:42 -!- Arendeth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:13 -!- Eletious has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:37:13 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:48 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2199-g01ad4e3: Make chimera upgrades slighly more readable. 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 6+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=01ad4e3beab8 20:37:48 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2200-g4a34552: Abort when trying to marshall a string above 32K. 10(61 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4a34552a04a2 20:37:48 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2201-gc288f25: Store the presence of ghost_demon when marshalling monsters. 10(13 minutes ago, 2 files, 20+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c288f2576e7c 20:40:57 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:42 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:26 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:46:39 Elliott: Any arguments as for why early orc wizards should have the possibility of utterly destroying you? 20:47:12 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:47:20 yes 20:47:24 its a game 20:47:27 youre meant to be able to die 20:47:43 also early game is like the only place confusion is good 20:47:49 why am i arguing with you... 20:48:15 -!- mong has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:48:35 Alright it's a good feature that orc wizards can randomly spam confusion at you. 20:48:56 Very likely draining you of every potion of curing you might not even have in the first place. 20:49:04 and still leave you confused because they spam it good 20:49:10 bloax gives a good argument for not listening to players on design matters 20:49:36 have you ever seen an orc wizard or are you just making up this nonsense about them spamming confusion constantly... 20:49:38 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-2202-g857913d: Actually use the minor tag introduced above. 10(46 seconds ago, 1 file, 12+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=857913dbab68 20:49:52 I'm not saying they spam it constantly. 20:50:15 I'm saying it's stupid that there's a chance they can spawn with confusion as a spell and apply it on you all too often. 20:50:30 Because unless you're that fortunate after being that unfortunate you'll likely just die there. 20:50:34 Because fuck you for playing. 20:50:57 ok, well 20:51:01 i no longer have an interest in this argument 20:51:56 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:49 -!- heteroy has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 20:57:08 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 20:57:46 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:30 -!- lainiw has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:07:28 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:39 Bloax: I can honestly say I've died less than 5 times in all my games due to wizard confusion; the rest of the time it's just been something I have to cope with 21:11:12 I'm not even sure I've died three times due to it, tbh 21:11:21 Well I've now stumbled upon wizards that confuse twice so far within the last couple of weeks early enough. 21:11:46 And I'm really saying that it's a really bad idea to have almost a guaranteed death unless you pass a test of luck. 21:12:04 The problem is that it's really not gauranteed 21:12:10 potion of confusion is very common 21:12:10 er 21:12:12 cure 21:12:14 potion of cure 21:12:28 Yeah but as I said the wizards can love to spam it. 21:12:38 Which can easily result in you quaffing them multiple times. 21:12:53 I think your argument could just as well be applied to orc priest smiting 21:12:57 -!- SudoNinja17 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:13:08 Not really since that's just how orc priests are. 21:13:08 speaking of which... 21:13:15 While here it's just "die". 21:13:19 But neither really should be removed, since they can both be dealt with 21:15:38 Well at least that's more sensible than what boils down to "no because i think bloax is stupid". 21:18:49 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:20:32 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:19 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:35:56 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:27 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 21:39:18 so did anybody bikeshed the rune glyph 21:39:38 or is that going to happen after people start to see it 21:43:59 what rune glyph 21:44:14 scroll up and read my commit message 21:44:29 oh that one 21:45:12 I heard that one wasn't too good 21:45:33 what's the new glyph then 21:46:32 that's what the bikeshedding was supposed to establish! 21:48:06 just make the new glyph a rune from quake or something 21:48:19 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:48:48 Bloax: I thought that was what smiting did too 21:49:28 Except smiting is always there instead of the game deciding that you should probably die now. 21:52:24 -!- buppy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:21 And I say this explicitly because while you can make a rule to avoid priests for now, with wizards you just never know if they're out to get you. 21:54:07 -!- myrmidette_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:54:46 -!- Grivan has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:55:02 true 21:56:44 "throw flame (3d5), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4)" 21:56:50 wait a minute where have seen this befo- 21:56:52 Sigmund (08@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 30 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Dam: 5 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(12) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 104 | Sp: throw flame (3d5), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4) | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 21:56:52 %??sigmund 21:56:56 oh 21:57:33 orc wizard (06o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Dam: 5 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 35 | Sp: magic dart (3d4), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d5), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4) / throw frost (3d5), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d5), magic dart (3d4), invisibility | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 21:57:33 %??orc wizard 21:58:35 ..Why do orc wizards have a chance to be mini-Sigmunds. 21:58:45 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:59:15 what, scythe and all? 21:59:25 >mini< Sigmunds. :x 21:59:43 oh, so it's a really short scythe then? 21:59:51 with no reaching? 22:00:15 eyup 22:04:28 -!- wheals has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:05:51 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:11:10 -!- Utis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:37 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:38 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:58 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:23:22 -!- CryptoCactus_ has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:49 -!- Formian has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:24:28 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:58 -!- jeffrom has joined ##crawl-dev 22:25:18 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:25:40 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 22:27:26 -!- Boyo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:29:53 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 22:32:59 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 22:34:34 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:58 -!- Nikolaos has quit [] 22:40:00 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Floorspider.png How's this then 22:43:51 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 22:46:44 Bloax: it's a little hard to see against several of those backgrounds 22:47:09 It blends in a bit with the browner ones. 22:47:27 But the shining red seems rather clearly present. 22:47:28 the outline doesn't look write 22:47:36 have you dodgily resized an image again? ;) 22:47:56 No, but this thing is rather impossible to completely outline. 22:48:07 Because it would look rather terrible. 22:48:16 (and i know this because that's what i did before cutting down on it) 22:48:22 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48:28 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 22:48:54 why would it look terrible? 22:49:06 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:49:14 why does it have e.g. outline on one side of a leg but not the other? 22:49:39 that makes it look terrible already imo ;) 22:50:55 i'd recommend trying not to make things use up the whole tile all the time; you don't have to use the full 32x32 px, in fact it's much better if you don't 22:51:23 i know it's hard fitting a lot of detail into that many pixels but these are the design constraints as dictated by the game engine ... 22:51:45 Well one thing is fitting detail and another is fitting definition in there. 22:51:59 Because you can say it's a spider but DOES IT LOOK LIKE A SPIDER. :I 22:52:01 yes 22:52:19 And so I have the excuse for 32x32 here because spiders are tricky little pests. 22:52:35 strangely ontoclasm, denzi, and all our other tile artists are able to fit both detail and definition without everything butting up against the edges of tiles 22:53:02 -!- lasserith has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 22:53:26 i do like the overall design if you improve the colours so it contrasts more with the background 22:53:41 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:53:42 Well unlike them I seem to be the only one not practicing pixel art. 22:53:49 but the only tiles that should really justify taking up that much of the tile, are things like giants and titans ... 22:53:58 Bloax: practice 22:54:10 what about cacodemons 22:54:13 he thinks they are big 22:54:18 My primary occupation is https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Duke3Dnotfied.png 22:55:02 And here I chuck out tiles because I seem to be able to - and they end up looking alright too as a bonus. 22:55:08 basically the absolute biggest image, _including the outline_, should actually be 30x30 22:55:15 -!- Alexor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:16 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:55:29 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Quit: later all] 22:55:42 Bloax: that has a very different style of art, for a different purpose 22:56:03 I was just pondering having octopodes (the monster) show up as occasional water enemies (perhaps after a bit of tuning). 22:56:07 I know, but the way I do those is almost the exact same way I do these tiles. :p 22:56:12 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:24 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:29 and that is why you fail 22:56:30 Bloax: yes, i can often see that in your images 22:56:42 And it's not like eeeeeevery one of my thingies are 32x32. 22:56:48 Bloax: the ones i prefer are the ones that _look_ more pixelarty, even if i can see that they weren't made that way 22:56:57 can we go back to old ultralethal constriction 22:56:58 (The bog body is technically 22x32 but the shadow takes up the rest.) 22:57:13 Dixlet: You constrict it!!!!!!!! 22:57:14 Bloax: i know, but i also know this has happened before, so i thought i'd point it out because it will save you time if you make things the right size to begin with ;) 22:57:35 i like the look of those '!' 22:57:42 mumra: like with his cacodemon 22:57:56 in UNUSED I mean 22:57:57 SamB: i was more referring to the boulder form tiles he did me but yes 22:57:59 Constriction damage should be your strength value. 22:58:17 * SamB forgot to look at the one he posted earlier 22:58:19 Which means stupid high damage if you're bravechei octopode. 22:58:37 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/Boulder2c.png 22:59:40 And well, I try to make things smaller but usually it just doesn't really fit in my mind if they aren't big enough. 22:59:55 Bloax: btw i don't think i got the last versions of them, could you mantis them for me so i don't forget or lose them when i finish boulder form off? 23:00:09 Alright. 23:00:15 Lua error: 23:00:16 /crawl-master/crawl-git-a079a5cb2e/data/dat/des/altar/ashenzari_visionary.des:4 23:00:16 2: No vault found for tag 'grunt_ashenzari_visionary_shoals' x24 23:00:34 Also since I'm a cheater, let's see how redbacks look with green legs/bodies. 23:00:34 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 23:01:16 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/RedbackAbominae.png 23:01:19 simmarine: it forgot to crash? 23:01:29 Bloax: it's not so much about perception, there are actually visual/graphical problems if a tile doesn't have enough padding 23:01:30 was it supposed to crash 23:01:43 dunno 23:01:46 Hm? 23:01:51 anyway it means shoals is supposed to generate in that game 23:02:03 and that something went wrong with fetching the subvault to display that 23:03:22 simmarine: I suppose it doesn't exactly wreck your game to be missing a subvault of that ash vault ... 23:04:32 -!- xnavy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:05:19 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7292 23:06:05 BOOOOULDER FOOOORM tiles by Bloax 23:06:22 zzz 23:06:53 zz 23:08:12 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 23:08:31 Bloax: thanks 23:09:01 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Redback3.png Less grotesque. 23:10:24 hm 23:10:27 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Redback3p.png 23:10:30 Interesting. 23:10:35 simmarine: anyway I find a vault with that tag in my source tree ... 23:10:46 !vault grunt_ashenzari_visionary_shoals 23:11:01 Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/8102148 23:11:30 well this was on the server 23:12:26 Hm. 23:13:05 Something killing what's engulfing you miiight not break the process. 23:13:25 Because I just mysteriously had a water elemental get whacked and finished by a skeleton I have. 23:13:25 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:13:33 and then was mysteriously left engulfed by nothing 23:14:04 -!- Arendeth has joined ##crawl-dev 23:14:21 you didn't drown yet did you 23:15:11 -!- rchandra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:53 -!- rchandra1 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:16:27 where does travel_delay = -1 go? 23:16:40 in your init file 23:17:03 ??init 23:17:04 init[1/3]: If you're playing locally on Windows, your {rcfile} is called init.txt 23:17:10 ??init[2] 23:17:11 init[2/3]: >+>+++>>+>++>+>+++>>+>++>>>+>+>+>++>+>>>>+++>+>>++>+>+++>>++>++>>+>>+ 23:17:20 wut 23:17:23 o_o 23:17:46 that looks kind of like BF but there's no output commands 23:17:56 ??init[3] 23:17:56 init[3/3]: It's a computer program written in the Brainfuck esoteric programming language. See http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck 23:18:13 isn't > output? 23:18:18 -!- rchandra1 is now known as rchandra 23:18:31 I thought I/O was , and . 23:18:36 not necessarily in that order 23:18:44 oh yeah, > is move tape? 23:18:49 think so 23:19:14 I had a nasty bug in a perl program from using cmp for ints instead of <=> 23:19:37 the numbers were usually the same length, and cmp works then. 23:22:08 ya i know but does it need to be in a certain area 23:23:32 hmm 23:23:33 Arendeth: no. it might be easier to read if you keep the file organized, or you can delete everything and start with a blank one 23:23:39 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:44 -!- six40sword has quit [Quit: ThrashIRC v2.9 sic populo comunicated] 23:23:51 anyone manage to get sound work with windows? 23:23:57 (if you set the same option twice then order probably matters) 23:24:15 I never tried 23:24:19 since don't you have to like bring your own sounds 23:24:28 i mean rest_delay = -1 23:24:55 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:34:39 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:35:30 Arendeth: you left before you could answer my questions 23:35:32 Arendeth: did you use that netinstaller version of msysgit tho? 23:35:41 Arendeth: and what command line did you build with? 23:35:56 i want to test whether it works here or not to see if there is something wrong with your configuration 23:42:03 -!- Silvaris has quit [] 23:43:01 -!- Sky__ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:44:03 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:44:46 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.13-a0-2202-g857913d (34) 23:47:16 -!- emeraldemon has quit [Quit: emeraldemon] 23:50:45 kilobyte: what do you mean by "synthesizes ghost_demon" in the comments for the monster parts? And what section are we supposed to mark? 23:50:48 I see how it provides a good guard against mistakes like I made, but would we write custom migration code (using parts as the detector) if adding a ghost_demon to something? Or is there a mechanism I'm misunderstanding? 23:50:56 zugundertherug the Merfolkian Porcupine (L27 MfGl) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 596: ASSERT failed: shop->type of 4294967295 out of range 0 (0) .. NUM_SHOPS (13) (D:25) 23:52:43 >mfw i realize my shitback can actually be used for the player spiderform sprite 23:53:16 Also why is BIT(x) defined in mon-flags.h? I suspect it would make things easier elsewhere? (Though admittedly some of the larger bitflags are probably more readable in hex) 23:54:50 -!- eurtek has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:56:20 mumra: I had a thought that kind of departs from the proposal for spectral weapon, but might be interesting nonetheless. What if instead of making a (subpar) copy of the weapon, the "spirit" of the weapon was a prototypical essence of the weapon class? 23:56:59 So rather than getting a spectral hand axe or a spectral executioner's axe, you'd get the essence of axe-ishness. It would cleave, but it's stats wouldn't depend on the actual weapon. 23:58:16 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:58:29 Since reaching is part of the essence of polearms, the polearm spirit would reach, but we could balance its stats based on that fact. 23:59:03 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found]