00:00:45 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:10 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:03:34 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:05:42 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2144-gf0858a5 (34) 00:06:06 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2144-gf0858a5 (34) 00:07:25 ??ancient bear 00:07:26 ancient bear[1/1]: An extra strong bear with rF+. 00:07:30 ancient bear (08U) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 82-125 | AC/EV: 10/8 | Dam: 38, 18, 18 | !sil | Res: 06magic(56), 05fire | XP: 1977 | Sp: berserker rage | Sz: Big | Int: animal. 00:07:30 %??ancient bear 00:08:24 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:09:05 ??roused 00:09:06 I don't have a page labeled roused in my learndb. 00:09:13 ??satyr 00:09:14 satyr[1/1]: Big brother of fauns; they use {leda's liquefaction} against you, and fire longbows at you as you get stuck in the mud. 50% chance of getting a pack of fauns with them. 00:09:44 is an overflow temple in the shape of an @ just a silly idea? 00:09:51 yep 00:09:51 how silly on a scale of 1-10? 00:09:57 4-5 00:10:08 it's something nethack would do 00:10:08 what is 10? 00:10:16 bh: Silly enough so that I shouldn't do it, right? 00:10:36 SamB: Warwick von Hugsford, the mescaline addled bear of butterfly summoning 00:11:11 SamB: 10 is gremlins permanently stealing your intrinsics near midnight 00:11:30 bh: Please tell me you're finishing Warwick soon 00:11:34 I've been waiting for him 00:11:47 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:12:14 gammafunk: come up with stats. no one liked his 'summon butterflies' escape slot 00:12:26 One thing to point out is that we have an @ statue 00:12:39 So that made it seem legit in my mind, which is no good reason I know 00:12:53 you mean a player statue right? 00:12:55 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 00:12:59 or human statue 00:13:02 or something 00:13:07 SamB: Yeah, a statue that's just an @ 00:13:17 I saw it and smiled 00:13:23 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2144-gf0858a5 (34) 00:13:26 it doesn't look like an @ in tiles does it? 00:13:31 yes, it does 00:13:36 it's literally an @ sign 00:13:37 oookay 00:13:41 unless it's been removed 00:13:49 what is the description? 00:14:49 wow, we not only have an @ statue, but also a & 00:15:20 The description should be "A statue of the god of War" 00:15:23 those are my favorite statues in tiles 00:15:24 does each statue get its own description? 00:15:36 just because of the bizarre meta-interface-reference 00:15:44 03bh 07* 0.13-a0-2145-g98d8517: Change Polymoth behavior. 10(4 minutes ago, 3 files, 18+ 39-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=98d8517600f6 00:15:46 SwissStopwatch: So an overflow temple shaped like an @ sounds good, then? 00:16:02 Maybe it's use overdoing it; works better as a statue I think 00:16:08 s/use/just/ 00:16:10 I didn't say that 00:16:30 probably it's very annoying to shape it like an @ if nothing else 00:16:57 it was pretty annoying; with tweaking it could be ok, but it's just kinda big for something that's just a visual gag 00:17:23 ok, I think this'll make moths less spoily 00:17:59 gammafunk: I don't suppose it might work better as a regular temple? 00:18:26 SamB: Hah, hadn't thought of that, but I was told go for overflow temples, since we need those 00:18:52 gammafunk: yeah well that doesn't mean the other kind is off-limits 00:19:34 SamB: I might give it a try after this next batch of vaults is submitted, then 00:21:03 bh: I think that warwick hitting with chaos by itself is perhaps not interesting enough. I wonder if he could have something additional that that's also very Xom-flavoured 00:21:22 that's what summon butterflies was for, to screw up ranged combat against him 00:22:04 yeah, butterflies isn't bad, but perhaps it's not interesting enough? Not sure 00:22:27 There's not god ability we can just give him, sadly 00:22:31 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:22:59 gammafunk: in general I like the idea of abyss uniques 00:23:13 bh: Yeah, does seem a fun idea to explore 00:23:46 Maybe warwick could get some mostly favorable xom actions? I guess it might just be too powerful 00:23:48 so, what if I made vault guards refuse to use stairs? Would that ruin V:$? 00:23:55 xom code is gross 00:24:12 -!- ahahaha has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:24:18 Don't try to make Xom code apply to monsters. 00:24:29 Ok, fair enough :) 00:24:31 I managed to pull that off once, ages ago. 00:24:41 It was terrifying. 00:24:52 stairdancing isn't really an excellent V:5 strategy unless you somehow manage to leave yourself no other options 00:25:24 It's more effective to make a run for the outer corridors, I find. 00:25:57 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:26:26 yes, and then make your way back to the center 00:26:47 blink out, or maybe just walk out if possible (isn't always) 00:27:34 Would cherry-picking a few reasonable, positive xom actions and putting them into a monster spell be a reasonable alternative to the folly of generalizing xom code to monsters? 00:27:50 I stairdanced V:$ with Fedhas + rain 00:28:16 -!- Nicksvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:28:18 I've also beat it by stairdancing and punching dudes. Oh, and tornado 00:28:23 this is a little different than normal stairdancing 00:28:41 The way to do V:$ Fedhas is to rain one of the main corridors and oklob the other side. <_< 00:28:58 probably puts less stress on the oklobs yeah 00:29:03 Stairdancing can be a great way to get banished, but it does tend to work if you have a strong melee build. Seems to be a common and successful enough beginner strategy 00:29:07 or you can just hit everything that works too 00:29:16 right, yes, that it is 00:29:24 killdudes!!! 00:30:34 making vault guards unable to use stairs would definitely change all of vaults too since they're not an uncommon enemy 00:30:48 like having them not follow you from V:3 to V:2 or something seems weird and bad 00:31:55 oh. For some reason I thought they only showed up in the branch end 00:32:16 -!- ZebTM has quit [] 00:32:42 It used to be the case that they weren't a normal enemy spawn in V if I remember correctly 00:32:45 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:32:54 yeah 00:33:01 but they do show up in some vaults too (troves and V entrances mostly?) 00:33:12 trove entrances I mean 00:33:17 not the actual troves :P 00:33:43 -!- ragingrage has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:34:00 Is there actually a dangerous trove? It might have been badwiki that told me there was one. I've seem some have fish, but that's hardly dangerous 00:34:16 s/seem/seen/ 00:34:20 eyeball trove? 00:34:41 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:34:43 there are some that can have enemies, sure 00:35:11 one with DE summoners I think 00:40:01 -!- psuedo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:40:24 Shining eyes. 00:40:42 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:43:31 -!- dcss72696 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:44:20 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:33 we would never use some (blindness + detection) malstatus, 'eh? 00:46:16 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2145-g98d8517 00:53:48 ??polymoth 00:53:48 polymoth[1/1]: New to 0.13, polymorphs monsters in your line of sight into stronger monsters. Much less likely to polymorph something already polymorph, with a chance that goes lower as HD goes up. 00:53:50 Did I read the polymoth code right? 00:56:17 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:56:47 decided my entry wasn't helpful enough? 01:01:06 !learn edit polymoth s/already polymorph/$0ed/ 01:01:07 polymoth[1/1]: New to 0.13, polymorphs monsters in your line of sight into stronger monsters. Much less likely to polymorph something $0eded, with a chance that goes lower as HD goes up. 01:01:26 !learn edit polymoth s/$0ed/already polymorph/ 01:01:27 No change because the regex failed to match. 01:01:31 !learn edit polymoth s/\$0ed/already polymorph/ 01:01:31 polymoth[1/1]: New to 0.13, polymorphs monsters in your line of sight into stronger monsters. Much less likely to polymorph something already polymorphed, with a chance that goes lower as HD goes up. 01:01:37 bh: Wanted to ask re: Warwick: would cherry-picking a few reasonable, positive xom actions and putting them into a monster spell be ok? 01:01:42 derp 01:01:58 gammafunk: aren't most of them really player specific? 01:01:59 Zannick: herp? 01:02:13 forgot regex 01:03:26 bh: I should take a look at the whole set, and see if there's a set that feels xomy enough and that might actually be interesting for the monster to have 01:08:22 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:08:31 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:35 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 01:08:55 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:10:29 SamB: What entry? 01:10:39 Zannick: Sorry, had gotten that in the other channel. 01:10:43 I guess someone deleted it 01:13:58 Nivim: ?? 01:14:30 You mean is it wise to stick xom effects in a spell slot? Probably not, especially as I look at xom.cc 01:14:52 gammafunk: Mostly that even if it works, you can stop the Xom effects the same way to stop spells. 01:15:01 s/to/you/ 01:15:15 It seems a little off when normally nothing can stop Xom. 01:15:21 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:15:51 Nivim: Yeah, It wouldn't be a monster spell slot. The problem is gathering meaningful effects without duplicating a lot of code; not sure there's really a way to do that 01:16:34 Probably not worth the effort for one monster.... 01:17:01 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:54 -!- Nicksvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 01:18:01 Yeah, would require making at least some of Xom's effects more general, and apparently that was horrifying. 01:19:30 I would suggest xomswap, enemy creature polymorph, and a list of noticeable spells, if you're going to try doing it anyway. 01:21:43 gammafunk: Would the code for polymoth be at all useful? It seems like you could add a some checks for Warwick to call it too. 01:23:55 -!- tolly has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:24:19 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:24:46 Nivim: I doubt it 01:25:12 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:42 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 01:28:26 !tell tenofswords I think I mostly took your advice. The polymoth turns stuff into stuff 1 HD stronger 01:28:27 bh: OK, I'll let tenofswords know. 01:29:31 -!- Nicksvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:31:36 in addition to the moth of gain level, you should make a moth of cursed gain level 01:31:59 * Zannick ducks 01:32:09 moth of alchemy as well 01:32:19 randomly combines two of your potions 01:32:37 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:32:57 aw, he left way earlier 01:33:55 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:36:56 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:37:25 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:37:35 -!- Nicksvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:37:49 -!- datgum has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:37:57 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:37:59 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:07 ??rebuild 01:38:08 rebuild[1/1]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/ http://dobrazupa.org/rebuild/ Bug kilobyte or Napkin for CDO. Use your powers wisely. 01:38:32 bh: in addition to the moth of gain level, you should make a moth of cursed gain level 01:38:52 moth of draining? 01:39:25 no, moth of "put you on the level above" 01:39:28 =p 01:40:26 oh, I'm working on moth of nihilism 01:41:13 moth of solipsism: everything fades of of existence. the orb vanishes. you cease to exist 01:41:41 aka moth of ctrl-q 01:42:08 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:25 moth of surrealism 01:43:33 we need 'moth of everything' unique which has every moth effect ever 01:45:47 mothra 01:46:00 Mothra casts smother 01:46:09 which is like haunt but with moth 01:46:14 you are covered in moths 01:46:21 smothered 01:48:37 New branch: The Moth Pit 01:49:02 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 01:49:38 also a moth that eats your robe 01:50:14 -!- lasserith has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 01:50:19 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:50:27 -!- Ahrin has quit [] 01:52:41 well, all that's needed is a new evocable for warding off moths: the moth ball 01:54:12 -!- Nicksvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:54:50 anyone else have thoughts on removing item destruction? 01:55:41 I thought that idea about disallowing scroll-reading or quaffing temporarily seemed workable; did that get shot down eventually? 01:55:52 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:30 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:03 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:40 gammafunk: I don't think it did, but I'm not sure how widely it was seen 01:58:32 magicpoints was telling me that armor corrosion is worse now; apparently it wasn't triggering as often as it should, and this was fixed? 01:58:52 she lost 15 AC in slime (before dying from mostly unrelated causes) 01:59:31 for a while the formula was reversed: +10 was like guaranteed corrosion 01:59:33 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:59:53 when +10 should really be immune to corrosion 02:01:21 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:03:25 -!- questner has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:05:06 -!- six40sword has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:05:07 -!- NuclearFrisson has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:06:21 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:06:45 Bad Idea: Opposing school spells 02:08:34 -!- Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:09:32 What would this mean, exactly? 02:09:48 Fire/Ice ? 02:10:57 yep, or Air/Earth 02:11:01 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:11:07 yeah, that was just an example 02:11:08 oh, I get it 02:11:34 how bad is the elemental cross-training penalty? -2? 02:11:43 It's -4 02:11:59 Lich Form Bug by snow 02:12:03 -!- twelwe has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:12:56 I wonder if it would make the players really sad to introduce other, smaller, cross-training penalties. Like, Su/Conj 02:13:20 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 02:13:29 -!- gammafunk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:38 or even something like: if you keep hexes and charms close together in level, there's no penalty. As they diverge, a penalty emerges. That would probably be too tedious. 02:15:58 haha, yeah, skill training antics like that might not be the best thing... 02:16:35 why not hexes/charms synergy? 02:17:04 work in the halting problem somehow 02:17:32 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:40 -!- Grunt_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:41 SamB: we should encode NP-Complete problems in games of crawl 02:18:03 -!- johnsteinVPS has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:13 -!- Zannick has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:18:21 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq is now known as Zannick 02:18:23 -!- doctorfrog has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:23 -!- Grunt has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:23 -!- hhkb has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:24 -!- Wahaha has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:24 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:24 -!- Melum has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:25 -!- Nivim has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:25 -!- namad7 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:25 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:25 -!- johnstein has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:25 -!- Eronarn has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:25 -!- lukano has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:26 -!- SteampunkDuck has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:26 -!- myrmidette has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:26 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:26 -!- Pedjt has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:27 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:27 -!- gammafunk_ is now known as gammafunk 02:18:27 -!- johnsteinVPS is now known as johnstein 02:18:47 -!- hhkb has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:12 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:45 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 02:19:57 -!- Nivim has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:57 -!- Nicksvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:21:56 Eronarn: Were you working on swarm enemies at some point? 02:22:05 Sizz the Eclecticist (L19 DsFE) (Lair:2) 02:22:47 -!- platinum has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:22:58 <|amethyst> !lm Sizz crash -log 02:22:59 1. Sizz, XL19 DsFE, T:49879 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Sizz/crash-Sizz-20130629-072202.txt 02:25:04 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:28:36 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:29:23 -!- Nicksvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:32:11 -!- axlexk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:32:25 mumra: After some thought, it looks like existing uses of deferred_damage_fineff already run afoul of the issues I saw with repeated calls to ::hurt. 02:32:58 I believe that hitting a kraken tentacle with quad-damage will deal AN IMPRESSIVE 16X DAMAGE to the kraken body. 02:34:05 injury bond doesn't get QUADxQUAD damage, but both will multi-apply the wretched debuff, which I suppose could be relevant with starspawns near wretched stars. 02:34:26 spacejung the Schismatic (L5 DDAK) ERROR in 'stuff.cc' at line 776: slot not a letter: � (-254) (D:3) 02:35:47 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:35:54 -!- tolly has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:18 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:38 -!- banana_ has quit [Quit: Using leafChat 2] 02:37:58 -!- Tollymain has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:39:41 best bug 02:41:48 <|amethyst> !lm spacejung crash -log 02:41:49 2. spacejung, XL5 DDAK, T:2167 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/spacejung/crash-spacejung-20130629-073426.txt 02:42:56 !rc spacejung 02:42:57 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/crawl-git/spacejung.rc 02:44:31 <|amethyst> -254 is CK_UP 02:45:51 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:45:59 <|amethyst> erm 02:46:09 <|amethyst> there are two versions of _adjust_item 02:46:22 <|amethyst> oh, trivially reproducible 02:46:28 <|amethyst> ia= 02:46:42 whoops 02:46:50 <|amethyst> why on earth would isalpha(CK_UP) be true 02:47:04 -!- SoulOfTheInterne has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:16 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:28 is it doing -254 + 2^x and getting a valid alpha character? 02:47:39 ie unsigned casting? 02:47:58 maybe i should look at isalpha before i spout nonsense 02:48:05 <|amethyst> possibly 02:48:10 <|amethyst> The c argument is an int, the value of which the application shall 02:48:13 <|amethyst> ensure is representable as an unsigned char or equal to the value of 02:48:16 <|amethyst> the macro EOF. If the argument has any other value, the behavior is 02:48:19 <|amethyst> undefined. 02:48:25 but alpha characters are like, 64-90ish range 02:48:29 aren't they? 02:48:33 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:49:08 -!- Melum_ has quit [Quit: Was eaten by a grue.] 02:49:26 <|amethyst> yeah, I'd expect that to be treated as 2 if anything 02:49:26 -!- Sizz has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:50:10 <|amethyst> but "undefined" means it can do whatever 02:50:20 -254 is not a valid signed byte 02:51:14 <|amethyst> this is the only place in our code where we call isalpha() 02:55:12 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:53 qoala: good discovery ;) 02:56:10 qoala: but does it apply to anything other than quad damage? since that doesn't appear in normal games anyway 02:56:15 -!- tolly has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:57:34 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:58:03 wretched status 02:58:09 and injury bond 02:58:18 neil (L1 HuCj) ERROR in 'stuff.cc' at line 776: slot not a letter: � (-254) (D:1) 02:58:26 only wretched status and starspawns are likely to occur together, though 02:58:42 <|amethyst> I think DD damage shaving too? 02:58:58 neither tentacles nor their heads are DD, though. 02:59:06 <|amethyst> (not that DDs can injury bond each other, but maybe injury mirror from a DD monster to a DD monster) 02:59:07 but yes, that would also be a problem. 02:59:20 <|amethyst> s/DD monster)/DD player)/ 03:00:07 gammafunk: yeah Eronarn was but when i had a look at it (ages ago now) it seemed hugely imcomplete 03:00:22 yeah, DD damage shaving and injury bond can get double shaving if both are DD. 03:00:42 |amethyst: i'm trying to find the source for isalpha 03:00:49 this one implementation uses a lookup table 03:00:59 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2146-g016b04f: Eliminate an unused variable. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=016b04f9233f 03:00:59 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-2147-g6e982ff: Don't crash on ia= 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6e982ffe8ca2 03:01:14 gammafunk: he was implementing them as clouds, which i felt was the wrong way to 03:01:19 eg blah[c] & ALPHA_FLAG 03:01:22 --wrong way to go. 03:01:50 mumra: For the pair of orbiting projectiles, do you think they'd need to orbit on some kind of curved orbit, or could you get by on e.g. a ray path? 03:01:58 though that might not be too unreasonable. the initial DD receives only partial damage because it is strong. It then shares the reduced damage. The bonding DD receives only part of this damage because damage shaving prevents even internal/magic damage. 03:02:15 <|amethyst> Zannick: has to be something similar to that to handle locales 03:02:26 so a negative c would probably hit something unrelated 03:02:58 -!- tolly has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:07 gammafunk: i wasn't just imagining just a pair; basically several virtual particles orbiting around a given point (e.g. the monster that was aimed at) 03:03:18 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:03:39 gammafunk: but probably this could be done with my projectil code rather than implementing it against from scratch ;) 03:03:48 Also, I'm not sure if tentacle damage sharing is working as intended. Damage is shared only if the tentacle survives. If you kill it, you don't harm the body? 03:04:21 mumra: can you give me a reference to said code? Assuming this is something in crawl 03:04:37 gammafunk: in the movement-handlers branch 03:04:49 mumra: Ok, I'll check that out, thanks 03:04:59 <|amethyst> Zannick: # define __isctype(c, type) \ 90 ((*__ctype_b_loc ())[(int) (c)] & (unsigned short int) type) 03:05:09 gammafunk: it's working for the boulder beetle / iood case, i only didn't merge it because player boulder form needs some fixing 03:05:11 <|amethyst> err, ignore that '90', that's a line number 03:05:32 "player boulder form" 03:05:36 that's a shocking phrase 03:05:41 hahaha 03:06:09 -!- Tollymain has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:06:10 what, do you turn into one of those dudes from legend of zelda? 03:06:15 =) 03:06:45 gammafunk: basically you'd create some kind of "swarmer" monster, and give it a projectile handler overridden from either iood or boulder projectile, override the movement to make it accelerate towards a given target 03:07:13 gammafunk: then also have that swarmer create and destroy static "swarm" monsters around it each turn, something like that 03:08:00 gammafunk: i forget now, which swarm types were we talking about? 03:08:10 -!- tolly has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:35 well, it was just a monster where you had a chance of moving into it or hitting it with each adjacent attack 03:08:43 and maybe a swarm status effect 03:09:17 ok, i was wondering what it was specifically a swarm of 03:09:26 where the status effect was likely just some increased damage, but perhaps that flavor could depend on the swarm 03:09:31 (i had a new idea to have fairy swarms in forest) 03:09:34 oh, you mentioned piranha flies 03:09:46 I was thinking also of 'legion', some kind of demon swarm 03:10:37 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:54 fairy swarms would be pretty funny; maybe call them pixies? 03:11:01 for a fly swarm, it'd be good to have something where they start as maggots which then grow into flies (possibly upon finding a corpse) 03:11:11 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:11:19 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:11:23 <|amethyst> mumra: every larva we've had in the past has been removed :/ 03:11:29 i was just thinking of pixies 03:11:45 well i tend to more imagine fairies as smaller than pixies so more appropriate swarm material 03:12:20 but i don't have any data to back this up ;) 03:12:21 you could make a tinkerbell unique that controls them =P 03:12:26 oh, right, nymphs aren't fairies; was thinking we already had larger-sized fairies, but we don't 03:12:33 <|amethyst> spriggans 03:13:16 really, i think when most people think "fairy" they think of what i think of as "pixie" 03:13:49 tiny little person with like...dragonfly or butterfly wings 03:14:08 but that's really just semantics anyway 03:14:18 hopefully they can get introduced and produce naming debates as heated as how to spell 'djinni' 03:14:18 |amethyst: i know :( but those larva didn't actually do much (and were nearly going to get reinstated for the hive portal) 03:14:41 faerie, obviously 03:14:52 <|amethyst> mumra: bee larvae actually got the polymorph on honey thing implemented I believe 03:15:57 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:16:10 |amethyst: yeah, it was in the hive portal ticket; i made a vault too; but i don't know if it was quite finished, since it was decided the food wasn't remotely necessary anyway 03:21:53 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:22:54 i was kind of wondering if the bees that treants produce were actually a threat by the time a character is in forest 03:23:03 <|amethyst> FR: rename "water nymph" to "rusalka" 03:23:14 and if swarming you with fairies might be more effective :) 03:23:43 but then we won't have any monsters that spit bees!? 03:23:48 =P 03:24:34 |amethyst: that name seems really appropriate 03:25:11 ProzacElf: well it depends, for "bee swarms" to work they'd have to replace the standard bees 03:25:20 otherwise it doesn't make sense having two different sizes of bee 03:25:53 but then we could have Eronarn's breate bees spell 03:26:16 heh 03:26:23 but personally i favour leaving bees as-is and have "breate piranha flies" instead 03:26:34 i see 03:28:17 So is applying effects multiple times when using deferred_damage_fineff, worth fixing? The best fix I've got so far is a parameter to ouch/hurt that specifies attacker-effects have already been applied. Which is as ugly as cleanup_dead. 03:28:19 -!- GuraKKa1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29:52 is it possible to pass in the unmodified damage? (i realise probably not) 03:30:19 it definitely sounds worth fixing though 03:31:04 you could also separate the bit of ouch/hurt after applying effects into a different function, and call that directly, instead of parameterising 03:31:13 depends which looks clearner 03:32:01 Well, some of the modifications might make sense. Such as the damage being capped at the initial monster's health. And these modifications interact with the attacker effects. 03:32:55 Since capping the damage, then applying wretched on the recipient's side, is different than the actual: wretched applied followed by capping the damage. 03:33:38 Yeah, I considered putting it in a separate function, but the way quad damage currently works, it *needs* to be in the middle of ::hurt 03:44:59 'attacker_effects = true 03:45:03 err... 03:45:35 'bool attacker_effects = true' is being added to actor::hurt (+ subclasses) and ouch 03:47:02 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 03:47:26 currently only applies to quad damage and wretched. If both defenders have ways of mitigating ALL damage sources, I'm letting both apply. 03:53:18 -!- Helmschank has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:55 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:53:57 <|amethyst> if it applies to wretched, I'm not sure if "attacker_effects" is a good name 03:54:04 <|amethyst> since that's a property of the defender 03:56:00 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:56:34 monster::hurt: "agent && agent->is_monster() && agent->as_monster()->has_ench(ENCH_WRETCHED)" 03:56:40 this is the attacker's wretched state. 03:56:47 <|amethyst> ohh 03:56:53 which is why I don't want it applied twice 03:57:18 <|amethyst> I was misremembering how wretched works 03:57:23 I'm currently reasoning that if a DD is protecting another DD with injury bond (hypothetically), that their innate resistance gets applied for each. 03:57:57 so attacker effects should only be applied once, but I allow defender effects as many times as applicable. 03:58:30 <|amethyst> that sounds reasonable 03:58:36 I think it's applied here so that ALL damage from a wretched monster gets reduced, without a case for each source of damage. 04:08:19 -!- Thyme has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:08:39 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:09:51 -!- someoneesle has quit [] 04:10:51 -!- Xenobreeder|2 is now known as Xenobreeder 04:10:54 -!- flowsnake_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:11:20 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:03 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 04:19:24 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:26 oh man. That's the best shaft. 04:21:36 oops wrong channel 04:24:05 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:33:19 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:33:43 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:34:54 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Quit: later] 04:35:14 -!- scummos has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:42:59 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 04:45:33 Okay, spectral weapon damage sharing is now a deferred_damage_fineff, with a new flag for being nonfatal. 04:45:52 Now it will leave you at 1hp regardless of the processing order for AoE attacks. 04:47:17 -!- Hailley has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:50:46 -!- sprort has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:58:53 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:10 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:34 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:02 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:29 qoala: ncie 05:14:35 uh, i mean nice 05:15:24 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:23:04 -!- Duralumin has quit [Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)] 05:25:11 -!- Melum has quit [Quit: Was eaten by a grue.] 05:28:03 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:28:14 -!- oiseaux has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:29:07 -!- NuclearFrisson has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:29:15 -!- oiseaux has quit [Client Quit] 05:29:38 Guys.. is the rng loving me or have you done something to Trog and Djinni? 05:31:07 mumra: I've currently got deferred_damage_fineff implementing non-fatal how the old code was. Pass in a damage value at most hp-1. Since hurt/ouch modify the damage, it'd work better if hurt/ouch handled nonfatal themselves. 05:31:17 hrm no, still got to have antimagic have a deleterious effect 05:31:49 I meant more the fact that I've only received non-anti-magic brands 05:31:55 well 05:31:58 at least of the maces 05:33:04 oh 05:33:07 nvm 05:33:10 Trog is back to his old self. 05:34:46 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:26 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35:50 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:25 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:44:39 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:31 -!- hurdos has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:46:21 -!- archaeo_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:46:59 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:25 -!- Mattias has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:48 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:52:15 -!- NuclearFrisson has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:52:53 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:53:33 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:54:11 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:54:59 -!- SoulOfTheInterne is now known as ToBeFree 06:02:28 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:03:00 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:07:41 -!- Mattias has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:19:05 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:29 -!- Grivan has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:19:53 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:20:47 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 06:25:15 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:29:33 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 06:33:41 New branch created: twisted-res-balancing (2 commits) 06:33:41 03dolorous 07[twisted-res-balancing] * 0.13-a0-2148-g3ce946c: Make aboms from twisted resurrection heal from corpses, version 2. 10(3 months ago, 2 files, 21+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3ce946c9a45c 06:33:41 03mumra 07[twisted-res-balancing] * 0.13-a0-2149-g90f6f3a: Limit Twisted Resurrection to three abominations 10(45 minutes ago, 9 files, 102+ 17-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=90f6f3a32f2d 06:41:00 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:16 Only three abominations? That sounds pretty weak. 06:47:33 -!- Mattias has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:15 -!- snwl has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:58:59 Spectral Weapon buffs & fineff fixes by qoala 07:00:29 mumra: I did some local tests and seem to be getting more effect out of spectral weapon. The fineff attacker-effect fixes are also mixed in there. 07:01:03 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:57 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:21 buppy: three aboms but you can heal them with crawling corpses; it's weaker, sure, but right now it's OP 07:05:00 three perma-summons is still a lot better than most things the Summoning schools gives you now ;) 07:05:59 qoala: taking a look now 07:07:27 -!- steve___ is now known as Guest28034 07:07:36 -!- archaeo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:09:30 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:20 aww, no summon_mid yet :( 07:12:25 yeah, I wasn't sure just how many things I'd need to change for that 07:12:40 and didn't want to keep delaying the buffs to spectral weapon. 07:13:22 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:14:09 how 'bout limiting twisted res to 0 aboms 07:14:09 elliott: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:16:30 elliott: but meatsprint 07:18:58 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-2148-g81e2a4a: Buff Spectral Weapon damage (scales with weapon skill) 10(2 days ago, 5 files, 38+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=81e2a4a95aee 07:18:58 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-2149-gbc1fa23: Buff Spectral Weapon (Gain immunity to allied beams) 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bc1fa23b6f2d 07:18:58 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-2150-gfb912d7: Buff Spectral Weapon defenses (AC, EV) 10(28 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fb912d7d03be 07:18:58 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-2151-g3bbf07e: Modify Spectral Weapon damage sharing. 10(26 hours ago, 1 file, 39+ 38-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3bbf07e665f4 07:18:58 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-2152-gf7d185e: Fixed some effects being applied twice to damage. 10(3 hours ago, 9 files, 37+ 18-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f7d185e99151 07:18:58 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-2153-g57ea70d: Halve Spectral Weapon damage sharing. 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=57ea70d0b762 07:18:58 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-2154-g6382b9a: Fixed issue with merging deferred_damage_fineff. 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6382b9ac15e1 07:18:58 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-2155-g0bb85b4: Make Spectral Weapon damage sharing use a fineff. 10(53 minutes ago, 3 files, 28+ 26-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0bb85b4f141f 07:20:51 mumra: since when do monsters get the nerfs 07:24:06 elliott: you were proposing removing the spell yes 07:25:37 no I was proposing removing the player version of the spell 07:25:42 for instance I am okay with monsters having meph 07:25:52 or for a more present tense example, banishment 07:26:55 i see 07:27:28 note: summons caps will also be implemented for monsters, as soon as qoala (or anyone) gives me a summoner_mid patch ;) 07:27:58 uh that sounds like a completely terrible idea but okay 07:28:11 why? 07:28:16 are you also going to make monster summons not attack out of LOS 07:28:21 and monster iood worse 07:28:22 shhh 07:28:32 because as far as I can tell the balance problem is player summoning 07:29:07 i don't generally care about player-monster symmetry, in fact i think it's interesting that monsters often have mechanics that the player can't use 07:29:30 i mean do you just want eustachio to be bad :P 07:29:31 BUT, in the case of summons, several people argued that monster summoners tend to spam their summons way too much and fill the screen with summons 07:29:55 well spam is the whole point of most summoner monsters, they restrict mobility 07:30:06 counterbalanced by the stuff they summon generally not being strong, if they sapm it 07:30:09 *spam 07:30:29 however i'll still give monsters much more lenient limits than players, because the monster AI isn't good enough to figure out how to use it properly otherwise 07:34:47 -!- qoala has quit [Quit: sleeeeep] 07:35:21 filling the screen is usually done by several summoners 07:35:43 and that doesn't actually happen 07:38:25 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:40:10 mumra: i just had a new 'bees' monster 07:43:15 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 07:44:16 twisted res is also completely pointless in meatsprint, for the record 07:44:30 and I've never seen the spell actually work well cast by a monster 07:45:11 -!- snwl|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:46:48 yes I don't actually care whether the monster version exists 07:46:50 does monster reanimation ever work well? the only thing i can think of is animate dead making corpses matter a bit in that suddenly your escape could be blocked off by zombies 07:47:40 mnoqy: um did you not see the coolrobin zig 07:47:47 where it tried to butcher a corpse in a zig to not starve 07:47:50 and an alich animated it while it was doing so 07:47:53 -!- Wolfram has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:48:08 (after picking the corpse up and hauling it) 07:48:09 i doubt that ever happens except that once because "food in crawl" 07:48:34 i think features only need to produce one hilarious tv to justify themselves personally 07:48:38 Eronarn: it still doesn't make sense why one bee would be tiny and the other type huge 07:48:55 supergiant bee? 07:48:56 alefury: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:49:01 !messages 07:49:02 (1/1) ontoclasm said (5h 18m 31s ago): glad you like it! 07:49:43 "beelephant" 07:50:09 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:55:44 -!- snwl has quit [Quit: Killed by a master lichen.] 07:56:07 -!- darkflagrance has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:10:50 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:30 -!- robbje has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:14:46 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19:16 -!- Duralumin has quit [Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)] 08:24:49 -!- Elkan has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:40:24 -!- scummos^ is now known as scummos 08:42:29 -!- nooodl has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:50:24 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:50:27 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:53:20 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:29 -!- pelotron_ is now known as pelotron 08:57:31 -!- Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:59:40 mumra: dungeon bee 09:00:38 -!- Grunt_ is now known as Grunt 09:01:44 -!- snwl has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:01:49 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 09:05:41 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:08:34 -!- myp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:14:52 Webtiles server restarted. 09:19:13 Webtiles server started. 09:19:47 CLAN is up again. 09:29:16 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 09:35:09 -!- snwl|2 has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:40:55 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:43:28 -!- fdel is now known as Nexos 09:50:25 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:52:57 -!- snwl|2 has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:05:36 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:02 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:12:04 -!- Nexos is now known as Nexos_ 10:13:56 -!- radinms has quit [] 10:14:44 -!- snwl|2 has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:19:35 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:19:50 -!- Thyme has quit 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[Client Quit] 10:50:45 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:51:43 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:23 -!- santiago_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:02 -!- JaGGedTK has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:04:21 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:21 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:07:17 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:26 !seen dpeg 11:08:28 I last saw dpeg at Fri Jun 28 16:20:11 2013 UTC (23h 48m 16s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: Lost terminal'. 11:13:39 -!- bubby has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:14 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:28 -!- bubby has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:37 -!- bubby is now known as buppy 11:25:18 -!- Wolfram has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:26:20 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:03 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:32:21 -!- platinum has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:32:34 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:32 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:36:53 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:44:52 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:52 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:49:21 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:51:46 crash when trying to save felid life by archaeo 11:52:04 ??polymoth 11:52:05 I don't have a page labeled polymoth in my learndb. 12:07:10 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:19 -!- platinum has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:18:29 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2155-g0bb85b4 (34) 12:24:22 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:10 -!- lainiw has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:31:34 -!- Guest28034 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:33:12 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:33:53 -!- Burer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:37:47 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:41:02 Eronarn: i just tend to think it's clearer if monsters with similar names have reasonably similar properties; and it's not hard coming up with a new monster type for the effect that bee swarms were meant to produce 12:42:18 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:58 mumra: while true, it won't be breathing bees at your enemies :( 12:43:14 Eronarn: but, piranha flies! 12:43:21 also fwiw they actually did: reasonable physical damage, some poison. all of the swarm enemies were intended to work like that 12:43:37 they'd have similar stats to non-swarmy monsters (e.g., clinging spider swarms worked) 12:44:31 as for actual swarms: bee, spider, fly, butterfly, sparks (conj/air needs some love with variety of effects), dancing knives 12:44:46 scarab would be cool for one of the mummy uniques 12:44:48 or sand 12:45:25 replacing sputterflies with summon clouds of butterflies would be much cooler imo 12:45:43 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:46:05 also wrt it being incomplete: the main issue is that the approach i took would require a lot more safety checks and stuff than is currently the case, since it involved monsters not necessarily living on the map 12:46:42 i think that's the right approach, but it would be somewhat time-consuming and bug-prone (but still less so than, say, mimics) 12:53:56 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:22 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:57:24 -!- Thyme has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:21 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:01:18 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:04:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:12:55 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19:22 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:07 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:02 -!- archaeo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:23:03 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:24:51 also fwiw they actually did: reasonable physical damage, some poison. all of the swarm enemies were intended to work like that 13:25:07 ^ yes that's some similar properies, on the other hand they are also completely differnt 13:25:43 -!- Silurio1 is now known as Silurio 13:25:43 it's like saying that anythng with reasonable physical damage and some poison is a bee 13:26:10 hey, i'm wondering, what is the reason for spectral weapon having that damage sharing thing, really? it seems like a strange penalty to use. like, if you want to penalize letting it die, it would be better to just punish the player when the thing dies 13:26:16 either with a defuff or with one-time hp loss 13:26:20 debuff* 13:26:56 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:30:25 i'm not really sure, and it seems to add a ton of complex code and hard-to-fix bugs 13:32:00 I was thinking the same thing. one time hp cost seems a lot simpler 13:32:06 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:51 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 13:34:48 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:35:33 a better way to implement the effect as intended would be to make all attacks against it actually be rolled as attacks against you; i.e. the SW has no HP/EV/AC of its own 13:35:59 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:36:07 still seems unneeded 13:36:09 but reducing it to that, it's basically dual wielding 13:36:12 yeah 13:36:27 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:32 ??plague shambler 13:36:32 plague shambler[1/2]: Replacement for rotting hulks in 0.13. Speed 10, stronger, more hp, inflict a Retching status that blocks food/potions, and on death spawns a cloud of miasma that spreads one tile per 10 aut 13:36:33 it's more interesting to have a penalty trigger once 13:36:58 and anyway, as I understand, it's to work around a tactic where you use it to block enemies in corridors from reaching you 13:37:24 -!- scummos has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:37:26 although in that case you could just block the player from casting it unless they have >2 empty spaces adjacent to them 13:37:45 hmm, sounds awkward 13:38:36 although it's an interesting point 13:39:20 why not make it like battlesphere? it attacks when you attack 13:39:21 could prevent it working in corridors altogether, i.e. unless you have a certain amount of open space around you it'll deactivate 13:39:31 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:39 buppy: uhm that's how it does work 13:40:09 mumra: I should probably use it before talking about it! 13:40:14 the spell isnt' even meant to be usable in corridors, outside of some difficult (but still possible) configurations 13:40:20 buppy: yes :) 13:40:43 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:41:44 evilmike: i find a good position tends to be at the end of a corridor, like you have cover on some sides, but can also get the SW to somewhere where it can hit things as well 13:42:48 it could just allow monsters to displace it 13:42:55 though that is a little weird 13:43:13 maybe it should just proc on a thing when you hit it???? maybe it already does that 13:49:18 ??spectral weapon 13:49:18 spectral weapon[1/1]: Creates an allied spectral clone of your wielded weapon, which strikes enemies in melee when you do. Damage it takes is shared with you. Its offensive stats scale with your weapon skill, and its defenses scale with spell power. 13:50:09 could golubrize it so that it has no HP but has a chance to dissipate on strong hits 13:51:53 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:52:24 -!- six40sword has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:58:30 1learn add elliott maybe it should just proc on a thing when you hit it 13:58:48 well i mean 13:58:58 melee battlesphere proccing when you proc your own weapon on a thing makes sense! 13:59:02 proc proc proc proc proc 13:59:13 * mumra procs elliott 13:59:17 :( 14:00:05 so you mean like if it's behind you it can still like "phase through you" to hit the enemy or whatever? 14:00:21 no it would have to be adjacent 14:00:29 the idea is you cast it, be adjacent to an enemy, hit it, and it hits it 14:00:38 that solves the corridor problem unless you like use a polearm 14:00:47 but whatever make it kill you if you use a polearm or something 14:00:48 that's how it currently works though ... 14:00:52 oh 14:01:00 great! 14:01:05 :) 14:01:06 maybe i should actually play newsk 14:01:11 glad we could solve that problem for you 14:01:17 very efficient devteam 14:01:22 btw my preliminary newsk feedback is that i agree infusion is problematic as-is, seems like too much free damage 14:01:52 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:11 also getting you + your spectral weapon hit by hellfire for a billion damage is no fun 14:02:14 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:28 i guess the damage per 1MP isn't actually that high compared to other things that cost 1MP, e.g. magic dart - but because it stacks with your attack it counts for significantly more over their AC? 14:03:28 and i haven't really used song of slaying much past early orc/jackal packs that noticed me all at once, i don't really feel any need to put myself at risk using it and fighting multiple things in a row when i can just fight them one by one 14:03:55 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 14:04:17 well it also doesn't cost turns like magic dart does :P 14:04:21 (other than the first one) 14:05:38 also i'm playing demigod so i actually did manage to get a bit of use out of infusion on d:1 but i can definitely see where crate was coming from in saying that it's actually just bad early and good later for most characters 14:05:52 since pretty much everyone else only has 2mp to start with 14:06:13 -!- Silurio1 is now known as silurio 14:06:49 maybe just giving sk an extra 1mp helps there if the issues with it being free damage later can be sorted out 14:08:00 Who keeps deleting the polymoth entry? 14:09:23 ChrisOelmueller probably 14:10:56 axlexk (L14 SpEn) ERROR: range check error (-24 / 17) (D:16) 14:11:21 axlexk (L14 SpEn) ERROR: range check error (-27 / 17) (D:16) 14:11:32 axlexk (L14 SpEn) ERROR: range check error (-27 / 17) (D:16) 14:11:43 axlexk (L14 SpEn) ERROR: range check error (-27 / 17) (D:16) 14:20:10 yeah infusion really doesnt work 14:20:16 if anyone can come up with a different level 1 spell thats good 14:20:45 i still like the idea of taking mp on melee hits for bonus damage though. maybe it could be the level 5 skald spell, replacing shielding 14:21:49 Infusion is quite wonderful for a level 1 spell in terms of helping you out early on though. 14:22:06 thats because it's overpowered as fuck 14:22:33 to put it politely 14:23:00 I mean even though it's weaker early and stronger later, it's a lot of free damage 14:23:25 maybe SoS should be the level 1 spell, but also make it more useful than it is currently 14:24:25 i'm looking at improving stair following for permanent allies; so delaying their appearance on the level (based on how far from the stairs they were) but letting all allies on the level follow, even ones out of LOS 14:24:51 while i'm doing this there's a possible nerf to stair dancing 14:25:14 basically i could make monsters follow you using the _current_ ally following rules 14:25:35 i.e. if there are monsters adjacent to you, then any monsters adjacent to _them_ can also follow (and so on) 14:25:49 but the monsters would be subject to the same delay as with allies 14:26:00 you dont need to nerf stair dancing 14:26:01 mumra: hmm, that seems like it would make it harder to leave allies behind when going someplace that you think they would die though 14:26:12 SamB: yes 14:26:28 SamB: unless i made it ignore allies that had been told to 'wait here' or whatever 14:26:44 that's what tw is for surely, yeah 14:26:47 pulling enemies up stairs with you can be useful, but it also gives the enemies free hits. there's already a trade-off and it's not imbalanced imo 14:26:54 Wouldn't it make sense to make "wait here" affect all of them? 14:27:04 if you do it wrong, it can bite you in the ass. if you do it right, it's to your advantage. just how it should be. 14:27:16 Since your other allies probably would tell the others not to follow or SOMETHING. 14:29:01 evilmike: ok, it was just a possibility, since it would use the same code anyway 14:29:29 -!- buppy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:36 i don't actually know if i'm a fan of "parking" allies 14:30:04 but people would probably be upset if i removed the possibility :) 14:30:28 i think this is more relevant for non-beogh non-yred permasummons since you don't have inter-level recall: 14:30:33 I think they'd find a way to do it even if you tried to block them 14:30:39 it's possible to park allies and lose them 14:30:42 people would do stupid things like jump down shafts 14:31:04 evilmike: the way i'm doing things, summons will follow you down shafts 14:31:04 so it's better to just let them have the option with tw 14:31:26 also, a lot of people (myself included) tend to dislike it when you have a million orcs following you 14:31:41 and its nice to just dump the ones you dont want to take with you for now 14:31:49 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:32:22 yeah, for beogh/yred i would definitely leave parking in place, since it's useful in combination with inter-level recall 14:32:41 well, for temporary summons I don't care at all, since they time out 14:32:49 i'm talking about perma-summons 14:32:54 e.g. mercs / aboms 14:32:57 oh 14:33:31 well, with twisted res I don't use it, because animate dead is better. I've actually never used a merc card, it always seemd a bit expensive 14:33:35 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:42 thematically i think it makes sense that mercs slightly have a will of their own and would ignore your order to wait once you've left the level; aboms are kind of too mindless to obey the order, they follow you somewhat like dogs 14:35:17 (this is mainly because it's easier to have a cap on aboms if they always follow you; otherwise i have to start tracking how many are on other levels; and it'd be annoying if you can only make 2 but have no idea where you left the 3rd) 14:36:55 personally i'd rather the spell just added corpses to one giant mega abomination 14:37:11 that could be cool 14:37:27 there'd have to be some sort of cap, but the crawling corpses it absorbs could still heal it, or give it temporary buffs if it is maxed out 14:37:46 crawling corpses healing the aboms is implemented already 14:38:07 so it would just need more growth stages 14:40:05 Some 48x48 (or 48x32 / 32x48) tiles for certain things could serve a great purpose for things like that. 14:41:13 (with these changes it'd be possible to let temp summons trickle down the stairs too, in general not letting them leave the level is good, but i wonder if this could be a perk of dragons since they're very long-lived) 14:41:29 Bloaxzorro: having tiles wider than a grid would be weird ... 14:41:56 It would be weird no doubt, but it would also add a sense of scale. 14:42:01 because whoah this thing is HUGE 14:42:11 did you know crawl is played on a grid 14:42:46 um, have any of you even played tiles mode? we already have some monsters that are taller than a normal 32x32 tile 14:43:03 I'm not sure if they are techically 2 tiles ,but they are already in the game, and have been for a long time 14:43:58 And it really makes them look big and threatening. 14:44:19 -!- anidude has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:28 evilmike: i know, they work 14:44:37 evilmike: i'm saying that wider tiles wouldn't work though 14:44:41 yeah that's true 14:45:02 unless there was a monster that actually took up like 2x2 grids of space 14:45:25 -!- ahahaha has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:46:47 discussing swarms again are we? 14:47:15 SamB: well we've moved on a bit since then 14:47:39 unless you're thinking of corpse swarms or something 14:47:40 I just remember someone proposing swarms be something like 2x2 grids 14:48:12 swarms should be bigger than that 14:48:18 like large intelligent clouds 14:50:09 but anyway, taller tiles could work for some kind of high-HD "towering abomination" or similar 14:50:23 and that could be pretty cool 14:50:36 eldritch abomination 14:50:39 <_< 14:51:18 Eldritch Realm :@@ 15:00:36 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:08:42 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:09:43 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:10:46 -!- ren-cs has quit [Client Quit] 15:12:03 -!- platinum has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:12:47 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:14:39 -!- silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:16:20 !learn del chrisclouds 15:16:21 Deleted chrisclouds[1/1]: ☡ 15:16:24 !learn add polymoth New to 0.13, polymorphs monsters in your line of sight into stronger monsters. Much less likely to polymorph something already polymorphed, with a chance that goes lower as HD rises. 15:16:25 polymoth[1/1]: New to 0.13, polymorphs monsters in your line of sight into stronger monsters. Much less likely to polymorph something already polymorphed, with a chance that goes lower as HD rises. 15:16:33 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:18:33 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:18:55 -!- Dixlet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:19 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:25:09 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:26:10 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:07 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:30:53 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:05 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:26 -!- clouded_ is now known as st_ 15:33:15 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:01 -!- nooodl has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:13 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:07 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:51:06 -!- Wahaha has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:15 polymath chunks should probably be mutagenic 15:53:19 not that it matters much 15:53:27 s/polymath/polymoth/ 15:54:32 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:20 !tell bh Minor point about polymoth: shouldn't its chunks be mutagenic? 15:55:35 gammafunk: OK, I'll let bh know. 15:59:35 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:57 -!- NuclearFrisson has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:04:16 -!- sbanwart_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:08:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:23 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:24:50 has trunk dev been active over the last month? 16:25:25 um ... yeah? 16:25:38 depends on who you ask 16:25:44 <|amethyst> %git describe 16:25:44 Could not find commit describe (git returned 128) 16:25:48 <|amethyst> %git 16:25:48 07qoala * 0.13-a0-2155-g0bb85b4: Make Spectral Weapon damage sharing use a fineff. 10(10 hours ago, 3 files, 28+ 26-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0bb85b4f141f 16:25:51 <|amethyst> %git @{1 month} 16:25:51 07MarvinPA * 0.13-a0-1125-g37d3fac: Remove a do-nothing tag 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=37d3fac45fac 16:25:59 <|amethyst> a little active, yeah :) 16:26:08 so like 1030 commits 16:26:33 i like playing crawl when it's changing quickly 16:26:37 more novelty factor 16:26:56 you'll love 0.13 ☺ 16:26:58 -!- scummos^ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:27:05 <|amethyst> more crashes! 16:27:20 crashes just add to tension 16:27:55 about 0.13, is there a plan for the summon cap? i'm in favour of a per-spell cap, but i dont think it works well with the current summoning school 16:28:25 there really needs to be a full review of the summ spells, and some redesigns for it, large rebalancings, etc 16:33:38 oh, so if I'm not hot enough I just need to crash the game now? 16:35:09 yeah then when you restart the level you'll be burning everything around you 16:38:44 evilmike: it'd be good to start with a top-down on what would make summoners actually fun to play... 16:39:28 a lot of changes made to summ are reactive balance fixes that happen to change playstyle, rather than answers to questions about what the playstyle should actually be 16:44:19 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:46:20 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:49:01 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:51:40 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:52:29 -!- Silurio1 is now known as Silurio 16:52:32 <|amethyst> I don't know if there's consensus on whether summoning should be a playstyle 16:52:49 <|amethyst> or just support 16:56:42 do summoners start with a weapon? 16:57:05 i dont mean to answer that question, i just don't want to see the summon cap in 0.13 without a proper review of the spells we have 16:57:49 <|amethyst> SamB: they do not currently 16:58:18 Yeah, making summons an interesting play style seems a not easy problem to solve 16:58:20 well they probably should if a mostly-summoning playstyle isn't intended? 16:58:21 the more random spells (like summon demon) bother me. Or call imp, or small mammal. I just don't like how the randomness plays with the fact that there's a cap. 16:58:38 I imagine more variety besides the mechanic of 'make things, tell them to attack' 16:59:01 <|amethyst> evilmike: Yeah, particular when there isn't a "clearly worse" one that you can preferentially expire 16:59:06 if there's a cap now can they attack things outside of LOS again 16:59:23 evilmike: I don't like how I imagine it plays either 16:59:35 <|amethyst> Mu_: there have been no un-nerfs yet 16:59:48 I seem to remember galehar saying something about the LOS nerf being there until the cap is in placed, and then it can be thought about again 16:59:55 but my brain might not be working right now 16:59:56 Mu_: The rationale behind not attacking out of LOS seems to be that it's boring to have combat happening off-screen 17:00:06 <|amethyst> well 17:00:19 <|amethyst> then why can undead minions kill things out of sight? 17:00:25 <|amethyst> or orcs 17:00:40 maybe remove that nerf now that we have a new nerf? 17:00:40 |amethyst: mumra has said those mechanics probably also need modification 17:00:51 please no 17:01:05 it's horrible having them turn stupid at the edge of LOS 17:01:18 Mu_: Do you like attacking things out of LOS? I personally agree that it's not the best mechanic 17:01:19 I understand the way you could cheese killing stuff out of LOS, but to be honest, I like perma-allies a lot more because I don't have to baby sit them with my line of sight 17:01:23 not to mention all the other stupid situations it creates like they wont attack something on the other side of a single statue 17:01:33 just more fun to me. perma-allies aren't as broken this way b/c they have other balance mechanisms 17:01:44 i've won a few summoners and holy fuck are they tedious now 17:01:45 Mu_: I'm with you 17:01:59 I mean, I haven't won any but it seems quite tedious 17:02:24 the only other thing that bugs the hell out of me is that ally sense invis doesn't work properly 17:02:39 It's more dangerous always fighting in LOS, and hence more interesting to me, but yeah that nerd hasn't been that popular with players 17:02:47 s/nerd/nerf/ 17:02:57 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 17:03:14 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:46 it seems like it + the cap are overkill 17:03:46 more interesting yeah, but I don't find it fun the way they shut off right now, and I don't hear too much positive stuff about it 17:04:01 Mu_: have you any feedback from after the cap? 17:04:10 what I'd prefer is if they became less effective as their range from you increases beyond 8 17:04:18 instead of just becoming brain-dead 17:04:26 really their AI should make an effort to get *within* LOS 17:04:27 <|amethyst> evilmike: what about expiring more quickly? 17:04:29 haven't played with a cap yet 17:04:39 <|amethyst> mumra: I thought it did, or was supposed to 17:04:56 yes, having them try to stay within LoS sounds reasonable 17:05:01 |amethyst: maybe. I was deliberatly vague when I said "less effective" ;) 17:05:11 |amethyst: if it does, it's certainly not obvious it's happening 17:05:14 having them instantly become sitting ducks at the edge just because they're summoned is dumb 17:06:05 it's not just getting within LOS; they need to make an effort to not sit at the edge of it too 17:06:08 there's some flavour rational about how you control them with your mind, I think. Anyway I only care about the gameplay/general playability 17:06:34 evilmike: that's kind of the flavour rationale behind the cap 17:06:39 although it doesn't really make sense 17:06:49 but suspension of disbelief etc. ;) 17:06:57 i find the cap easy enough to handwave 17:07:09 the spell isn't "strong enough" to summon more than n things at once. whatever, it works for me 17:07:16 What about summons spells that behave a bit closer to a conjuration, played out over 3-5 turns? You cast the spell, a few actors appear, attack a target in a concerted way over a handful of turns, and then vanish? 17:07:26 gammafunk: haunt 17:07:43 summon hydra almost fits that profile too 17:07:54 mumra: Yes, maybe we need summons spells that are a bit more like haunt, possibly with more variety in how they act together 17:07:58 but yes some spells could work more like that, although it's not very different to an intelligent cloud at that point 17:08:12 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08:23 I'd rather summon spells be cast very rarely rather than every fight 17:08:30 summoning school should in general involve strategy/tactics using your allies, rather than fire-and-forget type spells 17:08:37 -!- Snarwin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:08:44 st_: durations could easily be extended with the caps in place 17:08:45 st_: i actually like how summons play with okawaru, the piety cost feels like they matter 17:08:47 mumra: Yeah, perhaps that is best 17:09:07 but i'm a weirdo who levels summoning on okawaru followers 17:09:12 (and we stopped allies levelling up at one point, right? maybe if they last longer they should be able to level up a bit...) 17:09:27 personally my ideal summoning would be a global cap of one, with extremely long lasting, strong and interesting allies (high penalty for dying) 17:09:27 <|amethyst> mumra: in your Su^Oka game did the caps help avoid piety loss? 17:09:57 |amethyst: certainly, because you're already taking a bit more care over them; but i abandoned oka after a while because it was annoying me 17:10:07 i wanted to test the general mechanics, not worry about oka getting upset 17:10:24 -!- tolly has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:11:08 but i played a few Su games and i was finding it a lot more enjoyable with the caps, simply due to thinking more about each encounter 17:11:22 i do think durations need to be looked at for all spells, anyway. with the cap in place i'm not really sure if short durations are needed much for balance 17:11:24 st_: You'd probably want every summoner to train melee skills then, I'd imagine 17:11:56 and it's pretty strong at least up to D:10 / lair at least, i didn't get further than that, but this was due to stupidity rather than the summons being weak 17:12:05 is the cap different per spell, or? 17:12:07 so i don't actually think the nerf was too hard 17:12:10 Mu_: yes 17:12:26 Mu_: and you can still build an army by summoning things from different spells 17:12:32 i see 17:12:33 gammafunk: yes, but not necessarily, you can buff summons or go ely 17:12:36 there's no global cap 17:12:46 and of course it can stack with non-Summoning forms of allies 17:12:56 the cap is a WAY better balance mechanism than the LOS thing btw 17:13:07 the LOS thing isn't really about balance though 17:13:12 like, as long as the spells are adjusted to fit it, I wouldn't call the cap "unfun" 17:13:16 it's about making sure that interesting stuff doesn't happen outside LOS 17:13:36 st_: are you trying to make Oka work okay with summons 17:13:40 sure, it's just too harsh and too abrupt to be very justified 17:13:53 evilmike: i do agree; but the cap had to be in place first to assess what individual spells might need adjusting 17:14:05 since the tactic is no longer "surround the enemy in things" 17:14:11 <|amethyst> it's not? 17:14:15 -!- darkflagrance has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:14:22 well, that's still part of the tactic ;) 17:14:23 you can still cast multiple spells to get a big horde of crap 17:14:32 perhaps it's not the only tactic that an Su might do now 17:14:38 -!- scummos_ is now known as scummos 17:14:42 whereas before it was the way to go 17:14:56 yes, it was the only tactic before, it doesn't always work now 17:15:19 and you have to think about *what* things to surround the enemy with instead of just your strongest thing 17:16:27 -!- Snarwin_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:17:01 i always have a hard time getting through the early midgame as summ because the starting book is kind of bad and there aren't many low level summons that can kill hydras or skeletal warrior bands. if there's a cap now too idk sounds kind of hard (i might just be bad though) 17:17:39 yeah i mean once you hit skeletal warriors you probably need secondary skills or have found a better summoning book 17:17:50 but that's true for a lot of backgrounds... 17:17:51 Ice beast works great for hydra, less so for skeletals, but by the time you see skeletals you usually have better summons 17:18:26 idk seems like conjurer starting books are all fine for dealin with them 17:18:43 what about necromancers 17:19:15 animate dead 17:20:05 is that really effective against skeletal warriors? 17:20:18 I think they have twisted res by the time skeletals show up 17:20:24 does it make them do a jig or something 17:20:41 or do skeletons not count as dead anyway 17:21:15 -!- Zermako has quit [] 17:21:38 yeah, they're undead. You could also control undead them 17:21:58 i don't think i've played Ne since the book changed 17:22:10 i do like st_'s general idea for fewer but more powerful / longer duration summons 17:22:11 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:21 if they get control undead that's even better yeah 17:22:27 although only ever being able to have 1 doesn't really fit with most people's idea of what a summoner should be i think 17:22:38 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 17:22:46 yeah, it would be closer to forcing a hybrid playstyle for summoners 17:22:52 do monsters respect summon caps? 17:22:53 <|amethyst> clearly summoners should have 15 minute cut scenes 17:22:59 |amethyst: hahaha 17:23:19 Mu_: not yet, i'm waiting on a patch from qoala but then it'll be easy to do 17:23:26 cool 17:23:44 -!- checkypantz has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:46 Mu_: although i was discussing this earlier and some people were saying that monster summons caps aren't needed anyway 17:23:54 <|amethyst> well, some are 17:23:56 |amethyst: is that some FF joke or something 17:23:56 <|amethyst> like BiA 17:24:04 <|amethyst> SamB: yes 17:24:18 SamB: |amethyst is proposing we add Bahamut, basically 17:24:23 <|amethyst> SamB: though to be fair I haven't actually played anything since 6 17:24:43 |amethyst: so the player spells with caps don't have monster caps but the uncapped player invocations _should_ have monster caps? :P 17:25:14 <|amethyst> mumra: case-by-case basis :P 17:25:31 -!- Aponym has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:25:40 hehe 17:25:55 maybe all these caps are just part of mumra's fixation with hats in general 17:26:10 on a hat-by-hat basis, yes 17:27:02 <|amethyst> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEiyBbP28g8 17:27:04 speaking of, when do two-headed ogres get that "summon caps" spell like promised 17:28:07 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:28:10 really with the caps there doesn't seem _much_ point having summon durations at all 17:28:52 New branch created: destruction (1 commit) 17:28:52 03bh 07[destruction] * 0.13-a0-2156-gb067798: Revamp Item Destruction 10(8 minutes ago, 8 files, 63+ 31-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b0677986fab8 17:28:58 yeah, it seems so 17:29:17 <|amethyst> mumra: without duration, why wouldn't you walk around with your full complement of summons all the time? 17:29:58 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 17:30:06 true 17:30:16 branch pushed! 17:30:16 bh: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:30:20 !messages 17:30:20 (1/1) gammafunk said (1h 34m 47s ago): Minor point about polymoth: shouldn't its chunks be mutagenic? 17:30:29 gammafunk: definitely 17:30:29 something else i was pondering before when nobody was around: making the XP sharing favour the player more 17:30:34 e.g. 25% instead of 50% 17:30:45 -!- pantaril has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:30:49 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:30:52 should we prompt the player when they read a scroll while smoldering? 17:30:58 or make it an option to get prompted? 17:31:05 isn't 25% xp less favorable? 17:31:07 mumra: if you fight along side its already less than 50% 17:31:13 what does smoldering do when you read a scroll? 17:31:21 SamB: 50% chance of destroying the scroll 17:31:22 but anyway i'd keep it as it is for perma-allies, cause they actually do gain XP in some cases 17:31:34 normally reading a scroll has a 100% chance of destroying it 17:31:42 SamB: with a fizzle 17:31:46 You lose the turn and the item 17:31:49 evilmike: i know, but some people are fixated on this thing (and i know it doesn't matter anything like as much as people think) 17:32:48 i dont care a whole lot. personally i'm skeptical that it's necessary with the way summons shut off out of LOS. but i'd rather address how that plays before messing with anything else 17:32:48 <|amethyst> mumra: people are also fixated on weapons of draining reducing their XP income 17:33:09 ??draining 17:33:10 draining[1/2]: A weapon brand good early on. Has a 2/3 chance of doing on average 25% extra damage to susceptible monsters, doing 1+1d3 extra damage and removing that much from max HP. It does reduce XP gain, but not enough to matter. If the 2/3 chance is hit, it has a further 20% chance to drop HD by 1. 17:33:33 we just need to reduce XP gain by "not enough to matter" 17:33:35 people are fixated on killing every monster and die to sigmund over and over 17:33:57 !killratio . sigmund 17:33:58 No battles for . and sigmund. 17:34:03 !killratio SamB sigmund 17:34:05 No battles for SamB and sigmund. 17:34:16 !killratio Sigmund . 17:34:18 Sigmund wins 45.53% of battles against SamB. 17:34:23 wow he does? 17:34:26 ouch 17:34:31 !killratio Sigmund . recent 17:34:32 SamB: hahah, above average for sigmund 17:34:32 Sigmund wins 27.77% of battles against SamB (recent). 17:34:44 !killratio Sigmund 17:34:46 Sigmund wins 28.40% of battles. 17:34:54 okay so I've gotten better ... 17:35:15 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:37:19 !killratio Sigmund 17:37:22 Sigmund wins 28.40% of battles. 17:37:29 !killratio Sigmund . 17:37:30 Sigmund wins 22.96% of battles against bh. 17:37:35 !killratio Sigmund . recent 17:37:37 Sigmund wins 25.71% of battles against bh (recent). 17:38:07 !killratio Sigmund .recent 17:38:07 Subcommand $(=target ${2:-*}) failed: No keyword '.recent' 17:38:11 !killratio Sigmund . recent 17:38:12 Sigmund wins 23.68% of battles against mumra (recent). 17:38:23 i was expecting better :( 17:38:25 !killratio Cerebov Antaeus 17:38:26 No battles for Cerebov and No games for Antaeus.. 17:38:35 .. 17:39:03 bh got WORSE 17:39:05 <|amethyst> bh: I like the item-destruction stuff, but have a minor flavour concern 17:39:05 <|amethyst> bh: does it make sense for a djinni or a lava orc to be "smoldering" or "freezing"? 17:39:08 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:15 <|amethyst> !killratio Sigmund . 17:39:18 Sigmund wins 32.96% of battles against |amethyst. 17:39:22 <|amethyst> !killratio Sigmund . -recent 17:39:23 Subcommand $(!lg ${2:-*} ${*} ikiller=${1} fmt:"${n}" stub:"0") failed: Unknown option: recent 17:39:31 <|amethyst> !killratio Sigmund . recent 17:39:34 Sigmund wins 28.14% of battles against |amethyst (recent). 17:39:44 |amethyst: well they seem to have trouble with ice already? 17:40:03 |amethyst: if you've got better flavor, just change it on the branch. That's the best I could think up 17:40:12 <|amethyst> SamB: yeah, but it would be kind of silly to be at max temperature yet "freezing" 17:40:26 okay, yeah, the flavour is odd 17:40:36 it makes more sense for individual potions to be frozen but i can't think of a reasonable flavour justification for individual scrolls 17:41:10 just make it appear as the garbled name again 17:41:16 but i still don't see it as a problem that needs fixing, it's just another one of these things that players get fixated on 17:41:23 even if some of those players are devs :P 17:41:27 what is the item-destruction stuff? 17:41:37 and explain it as that scroll making no sense at the moment 17:41:42 <|amethyst> %git destruction 17:41:42 07bh * 0.13-a0-2156-gb067798: Revamp Item Destruction 10(21 minutes ago, 8 files, 63+ 31-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b0677986fab8 17:41:54 i dont really think item destruction is a big problem 17:41:54 <|amethyst> elliott: (on a branch) 17:42:00 SamB: why would fire make a scroll make no sense/ 17:42:01 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:42:05 oh is this the thing elliptic told me he would strongly oppose if I implemented it :P 17:42:08 mumra: point 17:42:10 oh it's slightly different 17:42:27 it's more controlled item destruction 17:42:41 you have a choice when something might be destroyed 17:42:43 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:42:44 did we !tell elliptic about this yet 17:42:49 basically if we think that item destruction isn't a meaningful game mechanic, we should just remove it; this alternative seems kind of horrible to me 17:42:50 I notice he's not here 17:43:07 mumra: yeah ... 17:43:25 blocking even whole stacks seems to be worse in a lot of ways 17:43:31 <|amethyst> I don't mind item destruction all that much 17:43:54 I think if item destruction is going to be addressed, what you should do is look at which items have a tactical effect, and which have a strategical effect 17:43:59 <|amethyst> I think players just don't like long-term consequences 17:44:17 i just don't like how much more likely you are to have all of your items destroyed if you are heavy armour vs. evasion 17:44:27 what I'm saying is, it's relevant for a scroll of blinking to be destroyed. it's just annoying if it's an enchant weapon scroll. 17:44:43 evilmike: right, which leads to stashing behavior 17:44:54 strategical items could be moved to a different item class 17:44:57 but the item destruction itself is good, when it happens to relevant items 17:44:57 <|amethyst> evilmike: could move all strategic stuff to a different category 17:45:00 you have to be dumb to carry around acquirement, even though it has no tactical effect 17:45:05 <|amethyst> what mumra said 17:45:17 bh: what if you didn't ID it yet 17:45:33 some kind of durable one use item? talismans? 17:45:41 yeah identification screws with the whole idea of adding a new category 17:46:13 what I don't like about this debuff thing is that you can wait it out, and it just helps the player more than anything 17:46:13 in a game idea i was developing i had runed stones for more strategical effects 17:46:23 because you'll ultimately have way more scrolls of blinking, healing potions, etc 17:46:40 the id game isn't really crucial enough to prevent this 17:46:50 perhaps 17:47:06 evilmike: if you need to blink *now*, you might end up dead if you try to wait it out 17:47:22 bh: so what can you do instead? 17:47:27 eh, it's rare that it's your only escape option. and it's not a 100% chance of failure 17:48:03 -!- Stumpsv has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:14 evilmike: as i said in the thread, item spawns would need rebalancing with this : and this hits the early game much harder than the late game, unless we balanced items differently in the early dungeon 17:48:45 <|amethyst> item generation needs to be looked at anyway 17:49:02 currently you almost always want to use !tele instead of wand tele. If you're smoldering, the wand is more attractive 17:49:06 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:09 <|amethyst> things like higher level potions being worse on average than lower level ones 17:49:23 yeah. to put it another way, my concern is that the balance implications of this are too large to justify changing what (imo) is something that currently works fine 17:49:55 also, I LIKE the idea of debuffs that block item use. I just don't like this as a replacement for item destruction 17:50:30 evilmike: I get your point. My perception is that this is one of the most widely hated aspects of the game 17:50:39 hmm 17:51:01 It's definitely something people complain about, but I'd be careful about that 17:51:28 I'm developing a game right now that can be difficult. Our testers sometimes rage (hilariously) at when they die, and call us horrible names. And then they keep playing, and say the game was a lot of fun 17:51:36 anger is a weird thing 17:51:52 bh: nonsense, the summons cap is the most widely hated aspect right now :P 17:52:00 yeah. I take seriously the complaints of good players much more than the rabble 17:52:16 mumra: more so than polymoths? 17:52:36 hehe 17:53:08 the hatred for that doesn't seem so widespread, it's kind of very focussed to one person i think 17:53:53 but yeah; players hating things isn't neceessarily a bad sign, and the good players strongly hate a lot of things that the wider community likes 17:54:41 here's a related point to that btw: you can use utterly degenerate game design to create something shallow, tedious, and completely addictive. Players will sink hundreds of hours into what is ultimately a shitty game. 17:54:42 i mean, nobody _likes_ item destruction, but i don't think anybody would like this alternative when it happens either; just like nobody likes dying 17:54:46 (See any korean mmo) 17:55:00 Item descruction seems to be on the level of the food clock wrt to player hating; often disliked by new players but recognized as an important game balance mechanic by most players 17:55:12 <|amethyst> s/korean // 17:55:42 mumra: next topic, permadeath? 17:55:43 -!- tsn has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:55:45 The problem I see with item destruction is that the solution is stashing stuff, which can be a tedious exercise 17:56:03 <|amethyst> or dropping stuff 17:56:32 people aren't going to carry around all thier enchant scrolls even if they don't burn 17:56:34 <|amethyst> and the pack size and weight limits have the same problem 17:56:43 i don't find stashing remotely tedious anyway since i set travel_delay = -1 17:57:25 yeah, situational dropping seems to work pretty well as a solution. I usually have a few mini-piles throughout the dungeon, usually only one of which I actively visit in any way 17:58:54 mumra: My trips to my "stash" are often along the lines of: 17:59:19 ^f[thing][enter][tab][tab][tab]G[enter] 17:59:23 get rid of items entirely. paradigm shift. 17:59:23 Et cetera. 17:59:49 Thyme: we've also talked about things like stopping popcorn spawns on cleared levels 17:59:50 Thyme: don't forget about the travel being iterrupted by a rat that you need to splat 17:59:57 mumra: :-D 18:00:03 <|amethyst> Thyme: that's what the [tab]s were for 18:00:09 <|amethyst> err 18:00:10 <|amethyst> bh: 18:00:11 yeah 18:00:34 fr "autogoto" travels AND tabs for you :P 18:00:57 hit tab / receive orb 18:01:08 <|amethyst> runrest_ignore_monster += rat, bat, ... 18:01:26 i have a question: how much preparation can i assume a player will have in the hells, so that they won't get stuck on an island. do i need to bother with no_rtele_into or is it safe to assume that anybody in hells will be able to fly, blink, or teleport off an isolated island 18:01:31 <|amethyst> would be nice if runrest_ignore_monster += trivial worked 18:03:30 briefly back to summons: i should probably set up a wiki page or tavern thread to review all the existing spells and collect things like quantity and duration of summons. if anyone has any thoughts on individual spells and how they could be better, that would be good. 18:03:33 however it would also be good if people could actually play a summoner or two post-nerf, i've noticed numerous people making statements based on what they perceive things will be like, but nobody has given any actual playtesting feedback apart from MarvinPA ;) 18:04:29 mumra: how do the summon caps work? 18:04:53 regarding some of evilmike's comments - i was going to try slightly more intelligent weighting as to which summons expire so hopefully things will be less random; several casts should get you more higher-quality summons 18:05:02 bh: play it and see! 18:05:10 or look at the commit notes ;) 18:05:16 <|amethyst> mumra: I haven't found them to make the early game all that much more difficult 18:05:28 <|amethyst> mumra: past the early game, I suck too much to know 18:05:33 <|amethyst> !hs . su 18:05:34 195. Neil the Spear-Bearer (L13 MfSu), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, blasted by a frost giant (bolt of cold) in IceCv (ice_cave_caverns_02) on 2012-03-06 02:59:37, with 33998 points after 24540 turns and 1:36:04. 18:05:40 |amethyst: pretty much same here ;) 18:06:18 mumra: I'll start another HEIE summoning speedrun tomorrow on CAO and get back to you. Have another char going atm 18:06:51 i got a decent way into lair then died stupidly to a trapdoor spider, but i was capable of dealing with any threats up til that point, it was interesting and challenging 18:07:10 so i think the balance is about right, the main question is how can we make the summons more interesting and varied 18:07:11 -!- lorenz371 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:33 rather than basically all the spells being different variations of HD, quantity, damage flavour, etc. 18:08:05 gammafunk: cool 18:08:46 some sort of effect when the monsters pop up? fear, fog, i don't have many other ideas besides that 18:08:50 -!- NuclearFrisson has quit [Quit: BYE] 18:09:40 <|amethyst> different AIs, like haunt 18:10:20 <|amethyst> more non-demons :) 18:10:28 yes 18:10:53 i do like the suggestion of a more projectile-like summon too 18:11:07 ...like throwing a pokeball? 18:11:09 <|amethyst> reschool IOOD 18:11:13 HYDRA I CHOOSE YOU 18:11:14 hehe 18:11:24 summon boulder beetle 18:11:58 mumra: that's the obvius projectile-like summon besides IOOD 18:12:24 <|amethyst> boulder beetle might be a little too similar to OOD 18:12:51 orbs of fire are round, and would make excellent projectiles 18:13:10 heh 18:13:11 a fire "ball" if you will 18:13:21 if you fire them at actual OoFs, they merge 18:13:48 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:52 <|amethyst> what about a smite-targetted immobile summon? 18:13:54 a swarm spell would be good 18:14:12 -!- notlainiw has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:14:12 summon a swarm around something 18:14:35 isn't there a rod spell that's a summon swarm 18:14:43 kinda like conjure flame |amethyst? 18:14:59 yes but i'm talking about special swarm mechanics rather than just "lots of monsters" 18:15:01 i think |amethyst might have meant more like a Summon OCS 18:15:04 mumra: ah 18:15:07 hopefully gammafunk is working on this :) 18:15:42 I have aspirations, yes, although I'm not making promises to have it ready soon :) 18:16:00 <|amethyst> nicolae-: I was thinking something immobile and melee-only 18:16:24 so conjure flame with more teeth 18:16:40 |amethyst: a stationary summon could be good; although you get this a lot with fedhas already 18:16:45 <|amethyst> possibly with targetting limitations to prevent you from putting it in a hallway 18:16:53 <|amethyst> possibly not 18:17:01 i guess a bit problem is differentiating summon spells from god summons 18:17:29 ravenous maw, appears in a portal, has space requirements like malign gateway, eats things that get too close 18:17:38 |amethyst: i had something of an idea for a spell like this, when i was thinking about arcane marksman 18:18:06 statue summons? 18:18:07 <|amethyst> oh yeah 18:18:13 <|amethyst> I wasn't thinking about malign gateway 18:19:15 another thing, spells to support your summons rather than stuff that creates summons directly 18:19:25 e.g. if song of slaying buffed your allies too 18:19:49 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:19:54 and they can sing along 18:22:21 i want singing allies 18:22:33 <|amethyst> enhance summon (Sum/Trm): polymoth effect on allies only 18:23:45 haha 18:23:50 level 9: summon polymoth 18:24:12 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:11 <|amethyst> summon pandemonium lord 18:25:18 summon goodplayer 18:25:46 <|amethyst> summon player illusion might be interesting 18:25:58 <|amethyst> and could have thematic downsides like damage sharing 18:27:07 summon godplayer: 50% chance each of summoning elliptic or jeanjaques 18:27:10 summon popcorn 18:28:42 death cob (08%) | Spd: 25 | HD: 10 | HP: 49-83 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 20 | 07undead, 10doors, evil | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1274 | Sz: tiny | Int: normal. 18:28:42 <|amethyst> %??death cob 18:30:10 hit death cob with fire spell, creates popcorn spawns 18:30:46 -!- oiseaux has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:47 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:30:53 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:58 summon 18:31:20 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:53 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:38:52 -!- psuedo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:40:24 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:31 -!- raskol_ is now known as raskol 18:47:48 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:12 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:23 -!- Nexos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:53:46 hey mumra, I'd be curious to see marvinpa's feedback, is it anywhere? 18:53:55 if it's an irc log, could it be copied to the wiki page? 18:54:15 I've played a bit with new summons, but no wins, just some offline games that made it to vaults-ish 18:57:49 -!- sbanwart_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:58:24 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00:45 -!- Kromgart has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:07 -!- sacje has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:04:32 -!- sbanwart_ has quit [Client Quit] 19:05:15 -!- Dixlet_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:05:52 * Grunt appears! 19:08:04 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:08:39 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:12:16 evilmike: actually i realised it was newsk MarvinPA was talking about not newsu !! 19:12:23 oh 19:13:42 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:14:58 -!- tolly has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:22 -!- evilmike has quit [] 19:25:24 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:26:48 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 19:31:11 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:31:54 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:32:14 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:51 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:33:14 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 19:36:24 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:40:58 -!- Hisar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:42:27 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46:37 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:55:46 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:46 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:06:05 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:09:39 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:14:26 -!- alefury has quit [] 20:15:49 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:27:07 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 20:31:19 -!- Dixlet_ is now known as Dixlet 20:32:07 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:06 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:36:33 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:40:54 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:43:18 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:44:47 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 20:49:24 -!- blabber__ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:27 -!- blabber_1 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:51:29 -!- blabber_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:01 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:23 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:33 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:33 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:41 -!- blabber_1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:54:41 -!- blabber__ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:55:54 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:56:55 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:57:25 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:05:49 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:13:06 Grunt: you remember that vaults:5 evoker who died using sack of spiders 21:13:38 mumra: what of him? 21:14:02 Grunt: can you remember who it was? i wanted to look up the tv 21:14:27 * SamB thinks he just killed an unseen annoyance 21:14:57 "unseen annoyance" could be a D:1 version, just to prep the player about invisibility 21:15:09 it doesn't do any damage, just keeps interrupting autoexplore 21:15:33 !lg roshnak v:5 -tv 21:15:34 4. Roshnak, XL20 DjBe, T:26180 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 21:15:45 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 21:15:46 Got it. 21:16:07 (Had to trawl the -dev logs, because I remembered pinging you on IRC about this at the time.) 21:16:23 unknown monster: "unseen horror n_repl" 21:16:23 %??unseen horror hd:0 name:unseen_annoyance n_repl 21:16:33 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:16:33 unseen annoyance (06x) | Spd: 30 | HD: 7 | HP: 25-53 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 12 | see invisible | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 747 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 21:16:33 %??unseen horror hd:0 name:unseen_annoyance n_rpl 21:16:38 unseen annoyance (06x) | Spd: 30 | HD: 1 | HP: 1 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 12 | see invisible | Res: 06magic(4) | XP: 3 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 21:16:38 %??unseen horror hd:1 hp:1 name:unseen_annoyance n_rpl 21:16:47 darn 21:16:58 forgot about that "HD must be 21:17:02 >0" crap 21:17:07 unseen annoyance (15b) | Spd: 45 | HD: 1 | HP: 1 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Dam: 1 | sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 21:17:07 %??bat perm_ench:haste perm_ench:invis hp:1 name:unseen_annoyance n_rpl 21:17:12 Spd: 45 21:18:00 I guess SInv would be overkill anyway though 21:18:52 does this work 21:19:00 unknown monster: "bat speed:50" 21:19:00 %??bat perm_ench:haste perm_ench:invis hp:1 speed:50 name:unseen_annoyance n_rpl 21:19:05 nope 21:19:45 also if you want it to be a maximum annoyance 21:19:50 give it a chaos attack brand 21:19:53 that'll teach 'em 21:20:13 eldritch tentacle (12w) | Spd: 18 | HD: 16 | HP: 99-141 | AC/EV: 13/0 | Dam: 3009(chaos), 4009(chaos) | 11non-living, 04eats corpses, amphibious, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 08acid+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 3181 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 21:20:13 %??eldritch tentacle perm_ench:haste perm_ench:might 21:20:19 klown attack 21:20:27 Killer Klown (09@) | Spd: 19-20 | HD: 20 | HP: 192-258 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 3012(klown) | 10doors, evil, see invisible, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(160) | XP: 6861 | Sp: berserker rage | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:20:27 %??killer klown perm_ench:berserk 21:20:43 oh god 21:21:32 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 21:22:05 -!- Arendeth_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:28 Anyone know how to get crawl to build? 21:22:47 ...you were asking about tiles builds a moment ago, so you might want to specify that :) 21:22:54 What platform are you building for? 21:23:11 windows using msvs 21:23:21 mumra: pong 21:23:34 its not generating the "art-enum.h" and some t=other files 21:23:54 so its failing to build 21:24:06 <|amethyst> Arendeth_: do you have perl? 21:24:15 ive got the 4 sets of files need 21:24:30 -!- six40sword has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:42 i believe ive downloaded that before but ill redownload 21:24:45 <|amethyst> Arendeth_: oh 21:24:49 <|amethyst> * In the Crawl source, run gen-all.cmd which is in source/util/. This step must be executed any time you update to a new version of the source (or if you have modified tile data or unrandarts). 21:24:53 <|amethyst> see INSTALL.txt 21:25:33 <|amethyst> Arendeth_: that's in crawl-ref/source/util 21:26:56 thanks generated now compiling again :P 21:27:59 where do I put the sdl.lib and such at? 21:28:13 still got some errors 21:29:29 how is "tiledef-dngn.h" generated? 21:29:58 any a few others that are similar 21:31:33 mumra: you want to field these? 21:32:08 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:32:14 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 21:32:46 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:32:59 -!- reaver has quit [] 21:33:35 -!- Notorion has quit [] 21:33:46 ??moth of suppression 21:33:46 moth of suppression[1/3]: Think silent spectre, but with an aura of {suppression} rather than silence. 21:33:57 ??suppression 21:33:57 suppression[1/2]: While under this effect, all of your magical items are reduced to their mundane counterparts. Magical staves act as nonmagical lengths of wood; magical swords act as nonmagical (but sharp!) hunks of metal; magical armors act as nonmagical strips of leather and hide. 21:35:02 ??suppression[2 21:35:03 suppression[2/2]: Suppression blocks all worn and wielded magical item properties (resists, brands, etc.), as well as the evocation of magical items. The base properties of weapons and armor (dam, AC, etc.) are unaffected. Effects that occur when items are equipped/unequipped (vampirism, distortion) happen as usual. 21:37:04 |amethyst: Is the python-based webserver in the source tree that same one used on CSZO and the other official servers? 21:37:27 |amethyst: and it's what's actually listening on port 80 (or 8080) in these cases? 21:37:52 hi 21:38:00 sorry got distracted for a while 21:38:17 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:30 <|amethyst> gammafunk: yes 21:38:33 !lg roshnak v:5 -tv 21:38:34 4. Roshnak, XL20 DjBe, T:26180 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 21:38:43 okay why are there bolt traps in Spider 21:38:53 this should not be a thing 21:38:56 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:39:04 <|amethyst> s/ in Spider// 21:39:04 uh ... the spiders got too lazy to make webs? 21:39:04 Who would have installed them? Spiders? 21:39:12 SamB: We have bolt traps in lair... 21:39:27 Demonic Crawlers, perhaps? 21:39:29 arachne installed all of the bolt traps 21:39:46 !send elliptic a crawl cookie 21:39:47 Sending a crawl cookie to elliptic. 21:39:54 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:40:22 anyone know where I need to put the needed libraries for tiles? 21:40:29 so I guess you can use IOOD for digging? 21:40:58 Arendeth_: mumra knows how to build with MSVS 21:41:02 Arendeth_: hi 21:41:09 SamB: It destroys walls, so yeah a pretty expensive dig spell 21:41:12 sorry just caught up on the chat 21:41:17 SamB: you're terrible at hitting _ :b 21:41:39 <|amethyst> !lm ttf crash 21:41:39 9. [2012-08-02 07:13:06] ttf the Impregnable (L19 MiDK) ? (Vaults:3) 21:42:16 Arendeth_: which file are you opening to begin with? is it the solution, i.e. you can see several projects including both crawl and tilegen? 21:42:29 crawl 21:42:34 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:34 -!- tcjsavannah_ is now known as tcjsavannah 21:42:53 you need to open crawl-ref.sln 21:42:55 crawl dat tilegen 21:43:00 ok 21:43:08 and an incomplete webserver 21:43:19 i mean incombatible 21:43:26 yeah 21:44:07 even if you set up a python server, dgl isn't compatible with windows 21:44:12 where does sdl.lib go? 21:44:26 have you initialised the submodules? 21:44:35 ya 21:44:38 git submodule update --init 21:44:48 ive done already 21:44:51 hmm 21:44:57 normally, everything goes in the right place 21:45:21 but i'm not in the habit of running gen-all.cmd so i haven't used it for a while 21:45:30 i'm normally doing msysgit builds as well, and that generates the various files too 21:46:02 I downloaded the 2 sdl libraries and compiled the newest pnglib and freetypes 2 21:46:12 you don't need to download any libraries 21:46:21 where i place them at? 21:46:24 except for perl 21:46:25 no 21:46:29 you'll have the wrong versions 21:46:42 the submodules already include the right versions, you don't need to download anything 21:47:04 says in install that i need to download them 21:47:19 where? 21:47:24 i think that's the unix build instructions 21:47:55 have you run "git submodule update --init" 21:47:56 ? 21:48:09 im redownloading submodules 21:48:22 atm 21:48:22 can you answer: have you run "git submodule update --init" 21:48:28 yes 21:48:31 ok 21:48:40 well in that case the solution should build 21:48:42 or wait ... 21:48:50 which version of MSVC are you using? 21:48:56 2012 21:48:59 ok 21:49:16 with avx coding 21:49:23 since im 64 bit 21:49:42 Arendeth_: oh -- did you build the submodules? 21:50:28 ill build them then 21:50:56 is it using the latest versions? 21:51:14 like the latest of zlib is at 1.2.8 21:51:28 ??arachne 21:51:28 arachne[1/1]: A half-spider caster with a staff of poison and a spell that ensnares you with webs. And poison arrow and venom bolt. Unlike spiders, she is not poison-vulnerable---and the staff gives her resistance. 21:51:37 Arendeth_: no, they're not the latest versions, we haven't updated because we have to be compatible with certain unix distros 21:51:48 Arendeth_: so you _have_ to use the version in contribs 21:52:03 Arendeth_: you need to build Contribs.sln in the contribs folder, i completely forgot about this part 21:52:16 it should be in INSTALL.txt but i'm dumb and nobody else has tested this yet :) 21:52:22 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 21:52:49 !learn add arachne Single-handedly responsible for all of the bolt traps in Spider. (She had her other hand tied behind her back, if she can be said to have a back.) 21:52:49 arachne[2/2]: Single-handedly responsible for all of the bolt traps in Spider. (She had her other hand tied behind her back, if she can be said to have a back.) 21:53:32 SamB: Now just who made the Zot traps, since you're being all technical :) 21:53:38 -!- Utis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:41 gammafunk: the gnomic wizard Zot! 21:53:53 ??the wizards castle 21:53:54 the wizards castle[1/5]: MANY CYCLES AGO, IN THE KINGDOM OF N'DIC, THE GNOMIC WIZARD ZOT FORGED HIS GREAT *ORB OF POWER*. HE SOON VANISHED, LEAVING BEHIND HIS VAST SUBTERRANEAN CASTLE FILLED WITH ESURIENT MONSTERS, FABULOUS TREASURES, AND THE INCREDIBLE *ORB OF ZOT*. 21:54:18 Grunt: I will never be happy until I get to see an avatar of zot in the game 21:54:31 I've played wizard's castle; it's kinda hard 21:54:32 gammafunk: clearly the Orb of Zot needs to be defeated before you can claim it! 21:54:35 apparently this happened so long ago that they had not yet invented ASCII 21:54:42 and still only had upper-case letters 21:55:10 apple ][? imagine the reverse video on the letters that "should" be uppercase :p 21:56:01 I think you could make the argument that Zot made all traps in the game, no matter how mechanical or magical they are, and no matter where they are 21:56:05 You cut it into ribbons!!! You burn it! 21:56:25 pcre failed to build 21:56:29 -!- blabber_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:56:29 does that mean I did like 4x normal amount of damage 21:56:56 gammafunk: why are you building 64-bit anyway, it's not like Crawl could actually benefit from that 21:56:58 er. 21:56:59 could i just put my own compiled lastest version instead for that on? 21:57:00 Arendeth_: 21:57:03 sorry same color 21:57:55 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-2156-ga9a2eb8: Mention compiling Contribs.sln in MSVC build instructions 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a9a2eb8abc8d 21:57:57 -!- blabber has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:57 I don't know how to "tell" on irc 21:57:57 Arendeth_: it's quite likely that using different versions won't work, but you can try it 21:58:05 64 bit code is just for machine language not memory 21:58:07 Arendeth_: what build error do you get with pcre? 21:58:52 i bunch of undeclared identifiers 21:58:54 why do I have a misled status light when I can't see anything 21:59:02 like PCRE_UTF8_ERR0; 22:01:03 could I just use my compiled pcre 8.33 22:01:18 -!- knaveightt has quit [Quit: Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm] 22:01:18 Arendeth_: try it and see, i have no idea 22:01:25 I guess there must be a wizard, or why would there be all this loot just lying around ... 22:01:30 Arendeth_: but i'm not sure why that error's happening, it builds for me 22:01:32 where do I put the files then 22:02:30 Arendeth_: it normally all goes into source/contrib/bin/8.0/Win32 22:05:36 -!- ViviCetus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:07:24 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:07:55 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 22:09:11 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:12:58 got it down to 3 errors 22:14:16 cannot open build.h and tiledef.dngn 22:14:38 cannot open build.h and tiledef-dngn.h 22:15:12 and something about output proprioty not set 22:15:29 Error 1 The OutputPath property is not set for project 'dat.csproj'. Please check to make sure that you have specified a valid combination of Configuration and Platform for this project. Configuration='Release' Platform='AnyCPU'. This error may also appear if some other project is trying to follow a project-to-project reference to this project, this project has been unloaded or is not included in the solution, and the refe 22:17:12 ??spider 22:17:13 spider nest[1/4]: Lair rune branch that alternates with Snake Pit. Five levels deep. Formerly a portal in 0.10. Spiders of many sorts. Expect them to hit hard and move much faster than you; running is not an option if you're normal speed. 22:17:37 ??spider[2] 22:17:37 spider nest[2/4]: rPois is not nearly as important here as in Snake, but it still helps. Bring plenty of potions of curing regardless, for redback poison and tarantella confusion. Swappable see invisible is good to have for the ghost moths. 22:18:06 ??spider[3] 22:18:06 spider nest[3/4]: Expect a small number of ghost moths and moths of wrath on level 5. Both can also appear earlier in vaults. In 0.12, there are moths of suppression as well! 22:18:21 ??spider[4] 22:18:22 spider nest[4/4]: augh, i get it, already. spiders make webs. jesus christ 22:18:37 SamB: you're terrible at hitting _! 22:19:01 Much better :b 22:19:26 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 22:20:13 -!- SamB has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:40 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 22:22:45 "Summon Tentacle" 22:22:47 Grunt: sorry, I still think the little thing in the status area should be made more eye-hurty 22:22:52 ==== Summon Tentacle ==== 22:22:52 Level 3. Summons a horrid tentacle which sprouts from your own body. Requires at least one adjacent space to cast, only 1 active at a time. Shares a % of damage (perhaps only on death). 22:22:53 It can move into other squares adjacent to you, and attacks foes adjacent to itself. The player can still move and the tentacle moves with them. It's a separately-summoned entity more than an extension of your body, so transmutations can still be used with this. 22:24:22 SamB: ETC_RANDOM 22:24:31 mumra: o_o 22:24:45 is there a reason I haven't autopicked-up this rune? 22:25:05 Runes aren't autopickedup by default. 22:25:44 mumra: Would it help you if we demanded that new things you propose have no sexual undertones? I'm thinking of rod pumping, which also happened recently 22:25:48 :-D 22:26:05 why does everyone have such filthy minds?? 22:26:10 hehehe 22:26:29 gammafunk: normal people don't have dicks like that, dude 22:26:49 22:26:56 if your dick has been behaving in the manner described, contact the Doctor immediately 22:28:11 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:09 hmm, "shares damage", check, "only 1 active at a time", check, "acting on its own impulses", check 22:30:08 yeah but the whole "move to any adjacent square" bit sounds off 22:30:33 And I guess the 'tries to kill your enemies' is also perhaps a bit off 22:31:02 I wouldn't know; I rarely have enemies who need killing ... 22:31:20 commenting out pcre to see if I can get it to build 22:32:17 Grunt: thanks for that tv link, i need it as backup in case elliott ever questions the sack of spiders 22:32:19 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:32:31 i think features only need to produce one hilarious tv to justify themselves personally 22:33:05 unfortunately there is at least one hilarious mimic tv 22:33:08 so my law doesn't quite work 22:33:49 Arendeth_: if you paste all the build errors for pcre into a sprunge.us, i can maybe try to diagnose what might be wrong, but i really have no idea without more data 22:35:06 Arendeth_: at least, give the whole build output from the Output window (do a Rebuild All) 22:36:05 Arendeth_: the 'dat' project doesn't ever need to build btw; make sure you are building 'crawl' 22:37:13 were do I post those? 22:37:22 use http://sprunge.us 22:37:29 click on the "this form" link 22:38:00 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 22:39:04 http://sprunge.us/aMRX 22:40:01 got crawl down to one error 22:40:24 cannot open include file. build.h 22:41:16 how do I get that to generate? 22:43:19 -!- Gastrox has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:46:07 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:30 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:50:23 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:51:21 Arendeth_: that should get created by get_ver_msvc.pl during the build 22:51:31 sorry, gen_ver_msvc.pl 22:51:43 is your perl environment correctly configured so it's on the command line and everything? 22:52:08 think i got ruby perl 22:52:23 if you type perl on the command line does it find it? 22:52:27 which perl do i need? 22:52:39 i used strawberry perl but it shouldn't matter 22:52:43 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:48 it just needs to be on the command line 22:53:17 ITYM "in the PATH" 22:54:39 nm i have strawberry perl 22:55:01 download 5.18 now 22:55:24 downloaded 22:55:41 says already have newest version 22:58:00 what do i need to run to create build.h? 22:58:28 -!- JaGGedTK has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:03:31 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:06:04 "ruby perl"??? 23:06:46 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:08:02 geekosaur: inorite? 23:09:37 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:10:02 -!- Silurio1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:10:42 Arendeth_: it should run automatically as part of the build process 23:10:54 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:20 normally the project should run: 23:11:21 perl.exe "util/gen_ver_msvc.pl" build.h 23:21:47 why .exe 23:22:30 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:22:35 -!- VolteccerJack_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:22:39 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 23:23:36 -!- raskol_ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:23:51 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 23:28:48 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:10 roars (L17 LOFE) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 614: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) (Swamp:5) 23:38:47 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 23:39:03 -!- Arendeth_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:44:13 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.13-a0-2156-ga9a2eb8 (34) 23:47:36 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:06 -!- buppy has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:57 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Quit: ~Internet()] 23:56:31 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:57:53 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:55 -!- Arendeth has joined ##crawl-dev