00:00:10 so do Dj bother hovering across lava? 00:00:31 <|amethyst> hm 00:00:45 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12.2-2-g527d14f 00:00:49 <|amethyst> just changing the message has a problem: dat/defaults/messages.txt refers to that message 00:01:20 <|amethyst> msc += $warning:oppressive heat 00:01:21 what's that 00:01:33 <|amethyst> (where msc is an alias for message_color) 00:01:43 <|amethyst> oh 00:01:51 <|amethyst> is that even needed any more 00:01:57 dunno 00:01:59 <|amethyst> now that they have their own message channel 00:03:04 do we want the "tick tick tick" messages the same color as the first one? 00:03:17 <|amethyst> oh, good point 00:03:36 I *was* wondering why some of those messages had colors and others didn't 00:03:44 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:04:09 since none of them seemed to have any color markup in 'em or anything 00:04:18 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:04:49 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 00:05:58 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12.2-2-g527d14f (34) 00:06:09 <|amethyst> we also need a description of endless lava for at least djinn, maybe lava orcs 00:06:20 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1444-gd9dfbbc (34) 00:06:24 <|amethyst> #7106 00:06:35 |amethyst: something about it being mind-numbingly boring 00:06:59 both I think 00:07:03 <|amethyst> "Why does it let me enter Lab?" 00:07:27 <|amethyst> (I don't find Lab mind-numbingly boring myself, but I realise a lot of people do) 00:08:02 REALLY mind-numbingly boring 00:08:16 how is it possible to melee trj and only make 3 or 4 jellies? just lucky? 00:08:28 rchandra: using that one axe 00:08:29 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:08:41 I'm just using my fists 00:08:55 axe of woe, obviously 00:08:57 surprised to not be overflowing in Js 00:10:32 !fight orc; hand axe unrand:axe_of_woe v the royal jelly 00:10:41 he was in water, if that matters (phial of floods) 00:10:52 !fight orc warlord; hand axe unrand:axe_of_woe v the royal jelly 00:11:18 !fight 5 orc warlord; hand axe unrand:axe_of_woe v the royal jelly 00:11:25 Possibly the jellies can't spawn in water? But most of them are amphibious, aren't they? 00:11:52 azure jelly (12J) | Spd: 11 | HD: 15 | HP: 59-103 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 1212(cold:15-44), 1212(cold:15-44), 12, 12 | 04eats items, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 12drown | Vul: 04fire | XP: 2141 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 00:11:52 %??azure jelly 00:11:58 acid blob (11J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 18 | HP: 76-122 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Dam: 4208(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, sense invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 12drown | XP: 3379 | Sp: acid splash (3d7+7d5) | Sz: small | Int: plant. 00:11:58 %??acid blob 00:12:12 3 acid blobs were made, nothing else 00:12:38 how do you get a wet match in arena 00:12:45 ??fight 00:12:46 fight[1/4]: the best(/spammiest) invention since ever. telnet termcast.develz.org (FightClub channel) to watch. "!fight cancel" to end a fight that's stalled, or repeat the same command line with "cancel" at the end, e.g. !fight butterfly v butterfly cancel. 00:12:58 ??fight[2] 00:12:59 !lm . -tv: 00:12:59 fight[2/4]: Examples: "!fight 20-headed hydra v 10 kobold ; scimitar ego:flaming", "!fight 99 orc v the royal jelly", "!fight electrical eel v 10 rat". Note the syntax for some monsters -- make sure you aren't pluralizing, and spell monster names correctly. 00:12:59 No milestones for rchandra (:). 00:13:10 !lm . -tv 00:13:10 4024. rchandra, XL26 GrMo, T:78673 (milestone) requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 00:13:13 ??fight[3] 00:13:14 fight[3/4]: PM varmin your !fight requests to reduce channel spam. 00:13:19 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1444-gd9dfbbc (34) 00:13:20 ??fight[4] 00:13:20 fight[4/4]: http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/docs/arena.txt 00:14:23 !fight 5 orc warlord; hand axe unrand:axe_of_woe, 5 orc high priest; hand axe unrand:axe_of_woe v the royal jelly 00:15:07 -!- Helmschank_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:15:15 yeah, i've got a war axe generated under a plant in a slime pit entrance vault 00:15:24 -!- eb has quit [] 00:15:28 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1445-g95d0da8: Fix Volcano announcement for Lava Orcs and Djinn. 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 10+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=95d0da83f762 00:15:38 \o/ 00:16:07 didn't someone try to end generation of items under firewood? 00:16:09 <|amethyst> Zannick: misspelled your nick, sorry 00:16:16 %git {firewood} 00:16:16 Could not find commit {firewood} (git returned 128) 00:16:17 aw 00:16:23 <|amethyst> yes, this came up earlier 00:16:29 %git :{firewood} 00:16:29 Could not find commit :{firewood} (git returned 128) 00:16:30 <|amethyst> %git :/firewood 00:16:30 07kilobyte * 0.12.1-56-g4aecbcc: Don't randomly generate items under firewood. 10(13 days ago, 2 files, 8+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4aecbcc28293 00:16:32 yeah, i'm remarking on it 00:16:32 thanks Zannic 00:17:20 wait, since when has slime had consumables? bug or new feature? 00:17:28 entrance vault 00:17:40 I mean the slime:6 treasure 00:17:45 oh 00:17:55 by "consumables" do you mean "things jellies eat" 00:18:06 i've seen wands plenty of times 00:18:08 no I mean potions, scrolls, gold, etc 00:18:11 There was a patch fixing | and * glyphs matching the same kfeat in some direction 00:18:18 could that have changed it? 00:18:21 food 00:19:20 errr s/kfeat/kitem/ the thing that makes sense 00:19:36 should I mantis this, or assume it's intentional? 00:20:05 %git bb8cc22 00:20:06 07|amethyst * 0.13-a0-1064-gbb8cc22: Make item specs versus item glyphs consistent (#7082, #6281). 10(8 days ago, 1 file, 34+ 26-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bb8cc227b8e0 00:20:15 might be a side effect of that? 00:20:33 unsure if intentional or not 00:20:33 -!- mgq has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21:13 <|amethyst> KITEM: * = star_item 00:21:29 <|amethyst> yes, that would have been changed by my commit 00:22:06 Grunt: forest is a thing, huh? 00:22:16 -!- frostsnow has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:25 <|amethyst> %git 97e29d768f420e03ae5397bd86754a229b6a3d21 00:22:25 07kilobyte * 0.8.0-a0-1588-g97e29d7: Add a KPROP "no_jiyva" that renders items safe. 10(2 years, 8 months ago, 8 files, 25+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=97e29d768f42 00:22:30 -!- geekosaur has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 00:22:36 |amethyst: intentional change, bug, or happy funtime feature? 00:22:48 <|amethyst> rchandra: unintentional bugfix 00:23:15 <|amethyst> since I don't think kilobyte intended to change the base class distribution in that commit 00:24:06 ok I'll submit the mantis and accept my less cool but likely better rewards (1 ?EA) 00:24:25 Could the endless lava description for lo|dj use something like the open sea? Somthing like: "With such smoke and no landmarks surviving amidst the lava, you'd be lost beyond all hope in short order — better not risk it." maybe with less copypaste 00:24:40 <|amethyst> qoala: yeah, my hope was something like that 00:25:05 <|amethyst> I'm not a very imaginative writer, though 00:25:36 slime vaults full of potions, scrolls, gold, etc. by rchandra 00:25:53 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 00:26:05 same here, for the most part. Playing up the thick smoke already in the description might be better then relying on "mind-numbingly boring" 00:26:56 <|amethyst> does anyone have 0.7 available to test? 00:26:56 qoala: hmm, that does make a bit more sense 00:27:06 test for what? 00:27:27 <|amethyst> whether the slime end vault has consumables among the loot 00:27:32 (I'm just curious, I don't have it) 00:28:18 * qoala is building 0.7.2 now from git source 00:28:51 so many compiler warnings :O 00:31:49 what's the compiler flag for wizmode? seems 0.7 defaults to no-wizmode on local builds 00:32:04 I have 0.7 here 00:33:40 Haha, the wizmode commands I'm trying to use didn't exist yet, it seems 00:33:40 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:33:51 That's 3 seperate ones now 00:34:15 But yes, there seem to be potions and scrolls and such in the rune vault 00:34:25 And a banana 00:34:57 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: could you post that to the bug? 00:35:29 Sure 00:35:52 <|amethyst> and do you happen to have 0.8? 00:36:21 Yes 00:36:42 1nick dracoomega archivist 00:36:48 <|amethyst> does it give consumables? 00:36:53 Haha. I just have old versions that I played myself 00:36:57 <|amethyst> (other than wands) 00:37:25 It does not seem to 00:37:32 I deleted my old versions so I wouldn't accidentally launch them. 00:37:52 Well, they're all in different folders, so it would be hard to do that by accident 00:38:10 on the note of messages and titles and etc, something that's bothered me for an amount of time 00:38:16 Commander is a kind of bad Okawaru title 00:39:26 -!- LexAckson has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:11 not that this is important or anything, it just seems weird for the god of not using so many allies to have that as a title 00:40:28 <|amethyst> well, he likes allies 00:40:32 <|amethyst> he like them a whole lot 00:40:37 <|amethyst> s/like/likes/ 00:40:40 <|amethyst> more than you, in fact 00:40:47 Yes 00:41:05 It's weird for -you- to have that as the title when the mechanics heavily discourage you from using them yourself though :P 00:41:52 <|amethyst> Warlord? 00:42:08 incidentally, he doesn't seem to care about the elementals from the evokables 00:42:38 The ones that occured to me were Martial Paragon, Master Martialist 00:42:41 rchandra: that's nice 00:42:51 MAster being an awkward and lazy title for anything of course 00:43:15 Warlord could work, but definitely implies being the leader of a warband to some extent 00:43:39 so what does oka do if your ally stubs his toe 00:43:55 <|amethyst> rchandra: plants and the nonliving don't count 00:43:58 since orc warlords tend to come with them at least, and the usage of that word tends to refer to people who command large armies, past and present 00:43:58 dock piety, or demand penance? 00:44:13 piety if they die, penance if you attack them 00:44:27 if you actually attack/kill an ally it's penance, if they die to something that's not you it's piety loss 00:44:29 SwissStopwatch: also future! though I guess Star Wars is past 00:44:40 if they just stub their toe he tells them to walk it off 00:44:49 since it happened a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away 00:44:52 yes 00:44:53 |amethyst: ah, I thought it was based on the source. guess I could get summon elemental then. 00:45:12 a long, long time ago in a galaxy with implausibly advanced laser magic psychic technology 00:45:37 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1445-g95d0da8 00:45:48 -!- Morphy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:45:48 I assume that star wars is in the future, and the scrolling intro is in the farther future. 00:46:05 just like sci-fi books written in the past tense. 00:46:18 I assume it's the past because it was made in the 70s/80s 00:51:21 -!- Cerepol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:32 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:47 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:41 -!- jevouse has quit [] 00:55:38 -!- ChongLi has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:56:55 -!- Lion_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:59:21 ghost moth (06y) | Spd: 12 | HD: 13 | HP: 49-90 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 1805(drain dexterity), 1805(drain strength), 1208(nasty poison) | fly | Res: 06magic(104), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 2288 | Sz: Large | Int: insect. 00:59:21 %??ghost moth 01:00:11 unknown monster: "ninja" 01:00:11 %??ninja 01:01:06 -!- Sabaki has joined ##crawl-dev 01:02:31 so, i'm playing trunk on czso, and I'm seeing something odd when searching for items. I have a shop that contains 2 randart platemail, if i search for "plate" i see one of the two 01:03:00 if i turn off stacking, it shows 2 more additional items, a cpa (also in that store) and a duplicate of the first randart platemail 01:03:15 basically it shows the randart platemail 2x, and it dosent show the other randart platemail in that shop 01:05:08 <|amethyst> do a save backup and file a report 01:05:22 <|amethyst> also, what happens if you ctrl-f shop 01:05:32 <|amethyst> and turn off stacking there 01:05:41 <|amethyst> is anything duplicated then? 01:06:00 if i browse the shop, with ! it does not have the problem 01:06:02 only on ctrl-f plate 01:06:19 <|amethyst> what about ctrl-f randart? 01:06:34 <|amethyst> err 01:06:41 <|amethyst> ctrl-f artefact rather 01:07:03 still happens there, i see one plate 2x, and one plate missing 01:07:11 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:21 the other plate is +14 maybe it is just too awesome to show up in the search 01:07:32 lol 01:07:38 <|amethyst> :) 01:07:47 <|amethyst> Yeah, do a save backup and post it on mantis 01:07:51 The .lst shows the two correctly. Seems to just be the stash-tracker somehow? 01:08:00 i did a backup, trying to copy and paste it from putty 01:08:16 also, gnite folks 01:08:32 <|amethyst> qoala: probably, and possibly related to being randart too 01:08:41 <|amethyst> or maybe not 01:09:17 <|amethyst> happens with both 2 and 3 matching items, so not related to there being exactly one non-top item 01:09:36 <|amethyst> Sabaki: also, check (and mention in the report) whether changing the sorting affects anything 01:09:44 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:09:54 <|amethyst> I'm off for the night myself; I may get a chance to look at it tomorrow 01:09:55 how do i change sorting? 01:10:01 ill put it in, thanks amethyst 01:10:03 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:43 <|amethyst> Sabaki: it's one of the keys like - for stacking; I forget which, but they're listed at the top of the search results screen 01:10:50 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:07 ahh it is '/' sorting does not change the behavior 01:11:11 ill mention that in the report :) 01:12:31 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12:40 Oh that reminds me, a friend of mine is consistently getting a lamp of fire bug in sprint. I got him to backup his save, so I should write up a mantis bug for it. 01:14:05 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 01:18:17 bh: Incidentally, I am genuinely partial to that idea that was suggested of making gargoyle self-petrification a sort of camoflague thing. In that if you used it out of sight of monsters, they could mistake you for a normal statue and wander away. 01:18:50 With possibly a turn or so delay during activation in which you are vulnerable to detection 01:19:03 I am not certain this is unproblematic, but I think it could be kind of fun, anyway 01:19:14 -!- Nikolaos has quit [] 01:20:48 what about making petrify modal? 01:21:37 Well, that might be better than the present state, but I'm not sold on how interesting it would be to play with, either 01:22:05 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:18 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:22:44 Whereas the mechanics of this other idea are at least unique :P 01:24:56 I sort of feel like a toggleable 'slow defensive combat mode' will either be good enough that you shift into it for most meaningful fights all the time, or lackluster enough that you normally don't bother? 01:25:13 And otherwise doesn't really change how you would play, or encourage doing things which are different from the norm, probably 01:25:37 -!- lion has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:25:56 I do wonder how metal gargoyle solid would play 01:26:14 searching for artifacts located in the same shop causes one to be duplicated, and the other not to be shown by igomadness 01:26:14 I'm just not really sure where it's possible to use if there's -any- delay on it 01:26:16 Clearly we need to implement this mechanic just so that can be used for the 0.13 release title :P 01:26:30 a good reason 01:26:44 make gargoyle colors, just like draconian colors, copper, tin, iron, etc, pray you dont get alluminium 01:26:47 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:26:55 Well, delay and other things can certainly be tweaked. Perhaps no delay is fine, based on other knobs there are to tweak 01:27:08 Like how long it lasts (and consequently how long for stuff to wander away) 01:27:10 slow defensive combat does have the potential of being boring, the only real tension comes out of it being impossible to get out of for a while but then it has to be really good to make that useful 01:27:22 Yeah 01:27:35 It feels like something you would either use the majority of the time, or ideally never 01:27:42 I mean, maybe that wouldn't be true, but.... 01:27:42 since mobility is really one of the most important things in Crawl generally 01:27:52 as can be seen by hilarious Chei deaths 01:27:55 maybe give them a stateuform type power instead, but of course not as good as real statueform 01:28:03 and by how good haste, swiftness, running, and fast races are 01:28:55 -!- gChange has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 01:30:12 yeah, so happy when i find boots of running :D 01:31:01 the secret of Okawaru's power: drastically increased chance to get those per game 01:31:18 Lamp of Fire: Range Check Error by qoala 01:36:35 -!- Cerepol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:42 I'm looking at "Merfolk aquamancers eating the stairs" 01:36:48 There's multiple interacting problems here 01:38:04 (1) when refactoring primal wave to use temporary feature code, the target square (and ONLY that square) accidentally lost the check that the square was overwritable 01:38:29 (2) dng-shoals assumes that any water or floor square can be affected by tides 01:39:16 (3) also from the refactoring, _create_feat_splash now hard codes DNGN_FLOOR and DNGN_SHALLOW_WATER, ignoring its argument list. 01:39:28 the lair in my game only seems to have one '<' back to the dungeon, it is fully explored although i dont have magic mapping to be super sure, im about 99 percent sure just looking at the map though. is that a bug? 01:39:44 It's new and intended 01:39:51 ok cool 01:40:01 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 01:40:35 going up one set of stairs out of a branch, then back down to somewhere else was apparently to M.C. Escher 01:40:52 s/to M.C. Escher/too M.C. Escher/ 01:40:57 haha 01:41:03 yeah it did seem a little odd :D 01:43:27 For (1), I've simply added the check back in. For (3), I've removed the hardcoded feature_types from the argument list (the new code could be used to allow water on other features, hypothetically), but could easily just make it actually use the arguments. 01:45:07 -!- Ainulindale has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:46:10 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-1446-gba60892: Don't hide Yred's injury mirror from the ability list while recalling 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ba60892b5abd 01:46:50 Well, temporary terrain markers were meant to be able to temporarily overwrite important features and restore them afterward, but presumably the tide code doesn't restore them the way it should 01:47:34 I had assumed that was actually what was going on when I read that bug, but hadn't gotten to look at it yet 01:47:45 yeah 01:47:55 I haven't been able to reproduce it 01:48:02 but I suspect it's the tides 01:48:12 oh wait, there's a wiz-mode tides button, isn't there 01:48:20 Yes 01:48:36 Really, they (and most other forms of terrain manipulation) should be rewritten to respect terrain change markers. I handled a number of cases, but quite a few more remain, I expect 01:48:44 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: Arivia] 01:49:10 There's a simple function for this. It's just that it needs to change the terrain via that function instead of editing it directly 01:49:18 yup 01:49:33 if I speed up tides, the water recedes from where the stairs were 01:50:16 also, does your most recent commit grant pain mirror to Beoghites under recall? 01:50:30 ...... 01:50:50 ...... 01:50:55 I am reasonably sure it does 01:51:23 hahaha 01:51:30 quick time to start a beogh game 01:52:10 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:52:33 "You offer a prayer to Beogh, and fill with unholy energy." 01:52:34 Yup 01:52:51 lol. I guess that's not on the servers, though. 01:52:55 quick, rebuild. 01:55:33 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-1447-gb23d427: Fix Beogh worshippers being able to use injury mirror, while recalling 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b23d427c1d29 01:55:59 somehow I find that bug much more amusing than any of the ones in epic_bugs 01:56:14 Yes, it is oddly hilarious 01:56:49 -!- Gmork_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:57:25 So for _create_feat_splash, should I make it actually use the overwritable and new_feat arguments? Or just remove those arguments? 01:57:54 I thought I took those arguments out myself 01:58:11 nope, you left them in, at least in what got commited 01:58:15 But it seems not. I don't know if I got interrupted or messed something up in the rebase 01:58:31 Well yes, but I rebased the crap out of that branch before pushing it in the first place, and it was over a month ago so I don't remember 01:59:14 Probably at the moment it makes more sense to remove them, I think, since nothing else is using it 01:59:22 And some other things would need to change if they did 01:59:32 (Like a parameter for the terrain change type) 01:59:52 mhm 02:00:41 Should it still only replace DNGN_FLOOR? It'd probably be really annoying if it intentionally flooded stairs into oblivion, but there might be other floor types we could temporarily cover. 02:00:52 wait, does shoals even generate traps? 02:00:53 I think I meant to fiddle with that, but then never did 02:00:56 Yes, it does 02:01:28 Really, it should be safe for this to cover anything, and then just change the tide code to respect it 02:01:36 Stuff like sunlight to dry the water already should, for example 02:01:46 okay 02:01:51 And phial of floods already overwrites things 02:01:57 So it could run into shoals problems, too 02:02:35 actually phial only replaces DNGN_FLOOR and DNGN_SHALLOW_WATER right now 02:02:57 evoke.cc:1457 02:04:27 -!- dupo has quit [] 02:04:52 Oh, really? 02:05:11 I wonder if I am getting what I planned to do mixed up with what I actually did? 02:05:31 -!- fdel has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:05:55 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:06:39 -!- Notorion has quit [] 02:06:43 I definitely tested it against other stuff 02:06:55 But maybe I held back afterward, for fear that it could confuse people to have stairs disappear on them 02:06:58 Even if they came back again 02:07:29 It also looks like sunlight calls dungeon_terrain_changed without actually checking the markers. Perhaps revert_terrain_to should be exposed outside of terrain.cc for this purpose? Maybe with a rename to reflect "change square permanently, respecting temporaries" 02:07:56 But doesn't dungeon_terrain_changed ITSELF check the markers? 02:07:59 Yeah, stairs disappearing could be really awkward for non Xom-ites 02:08:08 no, all terrain.cc functions that call it do 02:08:19 So sunlight DOESN'T work? 02:08:26 Am I just misremembering all of what I did now? -.- 02:09:14 You *did* commit a very prolific number of features in a short timespan 02:09:59 Well, also this temp terrain change stuff was done back in April 02:10:10 And not really looked at much since, as I was busy with Crypt stuff 02:10:10 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:27 ah, yeah. Easy to mixup the todo list with the done list in that time 02:10:33 And quite a few things were changed and then changed again enough times that I sometimes forget where it was left 02:10:45 I definitely thought I tested sunlight, though 02:14:48 yeah, sunlight doesn't currently work. Ah well. It's a good thing only an aquamancer targetting someone standing on a non-floor feature can actually replace something else right now. 02:15:04 And then it has to get affected by the tide, too 02:15:08 Before the water disappears 02:15:27 I do like the potential for locking someone in soals forever though, sounds great 02:15:32 Haha 02:15:44 just get them to replace all the up stairs and hatches 02:15:47 Well, the simplest thing is to just to make it not replace non-floors under the player, too 02:15:51 For now 02:16:01 And then any more complicated stuff can be done later 02:16:06 yeah 02:16:19 SwissStopwatch: By the way, there is a more reliable way to do this in 0.12 02:16:41 oh boy? 02:17:01 -!- Seppucrow has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:02 I only discovered while working on this temp terrain change stuff, and wasn't so hot on trying to backport that for a bugfix 02:17:06 does it someone involve deck of dungeons 02:17:09 Nah 02:17:13 s/someone/somehow 02:17:23 Like, it would be very hard to have it happen by accident 02:17:28 But it's quite easy to do it deliberately 02:17:42 It involves imprison and shatter >.> 02:17:45 haha 02:18:00 imprison was my next guess, but I'm not sure I would've gotten shatter 02:18:13 although it's obviously the next logical step 02:18:14 Well, LRD could also work if you're willing to cast it 30 times 02:18:18 now the real question 02:18:36 So nuke_wall works correctly 02:18:37 is what happens when you wipe a staircase with this, then use another one and go to the old one that led to it 02:18:50 ....that is a good question, haha 02:18:53 I never thought to try this 02:19:14 You can also wipe out all the non-Zin altars this way 02:19:17 For maximal Zin pride 02:19:18 my guesses are either the old one now functions as an escape hatch, or the game just straight up crashes 02:19:21 (Or just wipe out Zin's altars) 02:19:26 can you also wipe the z - yes 02:19:50 guess 3 would be that the other one also somehow disappears 02:19:56 This really seems like the setup for a horrible practical joke in a robin game, incidentally 02:20:00 I think it's time to find out 02:20:10 Remove all the D:1 upstairs and wait until the orb run for someone else to discover this 02:20:24 time for my wizmode fene to get zin 02:20:50 (and this doesn't work in .13, right? good thing my offline is still .12) 02:20:54 Yes, it doesn't work in 0.13 02:21:08 If you shatter it, the stairs will still be where they should be 02:25:32 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:53 Forget ocking someone out of shoals, one of my wizmode characters now has no exit from the dungeon :D 02:25:58 s/ocking/locking/ 02:26:06 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:16 I hope this is either an old version or somehow using this primal wave bug I am about to push a fix for 02:27:23 hm maybe my .12 build has that fixed 02:27:29 since I can't imprison things by stairs 02:28:48 Was this before I buffed imprison? 02:29:06 I don't know when I got this build 02:29:08 It used to just plain not be useable near all kinds of things 02:29:11 Like fountains 02:29:14 I think imprison was prevented from replacing features it couldn't undo before you put in the temporary terrain change code 02:29:18 maybe a new stable build will work 02:29:38 qoala: Originally, but when I changed imprison, I used a sort of early hacky version of the temporary terrain markers 02:29:44 But it's not a total loss, I did learn that there's a special message for imprison expiring when the monster is no longer alive/existing 02:29:45 So they will restore features properly when they time out 02:29:51 But just not when forcibly removed =/ 02:29:58 SwissStopwatch: Yeah, haha 02:30:01 so at least that's something 02:30:19 In old versions when LRD didn't respect, LoS, you could theoretically imprison someone, then spam them with what while they couldn't see you 02:30:25 I don't know that anyone ever thought to do this, though 02:30:29 As I have never heard of it before 02:30:41 would've involved them worshipping zin 02:30:44 Yes 02:30:48 so not surprised 02:30:56 Though it might have been a good combo anyway! 02:31:20 Zin sounds good on combos that can actually use the stats, although needing to train invo is maybe questionable 02:31:22 qoala: Also, that was a serious question back there, by the way. WAS this some new issue, or just the old one I mentioned? 02:31:43 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:32:44 wait, which question? The one about when you buffed imprison? 02:33:07 Forget ocking someone out of shoals, one of my wizmode characters now has no exit from the dungeon :D 02:33:13 I hope this is either an old version or somehow using this primal wave bug I am about to push a fix for 02:33:39 -!- Sky_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:33:48 That was me testing this bug 02:34:31 How, in this case? Since there's no tides out there. Was it a water card or something? 02:34:54 I was testing sunlight that time 02:34:58 Oh, okay 02:35:23 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-1448-ga65736e: Prevent primal wave from eating stairs (and remove superfluous arguments) 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a65736ef13bf 02:35:36 apparently I also learned that copying all the folders from an alpha .12 build to a stable .12.2 makes the tiles go weird 02:35:46 which is of course completely my fault 02:36:13 !seen die 02:36:13 Sorry Keskitalo, I haven't seen die. 02:36:16 !seen due 02:36:17 I last saw due at Thu Apr 11 08:58:37 2013 UTC (7w 5d 22h 37m 40s ago) parting ##crawl-dev with message 'chanpart'. 02:37:23 DracoOmega, you can ignore the patch I attached to the mantis ticket when you close it 02:37:37 Oh, you attached a patch 02:37:38 ? 02:37:43 I hadn't looked for a bit >.> 02:38:04 so what seems to happen wiping out a staircase this way 02:38:13 is that you get taken to another available one instead 02:38:36 which then connects normally to the one it was assigned to before 02:38:42 no hilarious crash or anything 02:38:43 I forgot to attach it until most of the way through our conversation, so you probably had already fixed it yourself by the time I did so 02:38:43 qoala: I hope this dosn't make you feel as though your efforts were pointless 02:38:59 SwissStopwatch: That is surprisingly robust 02:39:00 nah, I enjoy figuring these things out 02:39:47 Yeah it's not the behavior I was expecting 02:40:39 ......I wonder what happens if I wipe out all the staircases down, then take a shaft and attempt to go up 02:42:46 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:42:51 47/7 not bad defenses for a xl16 hube :D 02:43:10 Oh yeah, I submitted a patch early on in the process of trunk mass debugging 3 new races that possibly got lost in the deluge of mantis tickets. Possibly because I mislabelled it as a bug rather than a patch 02:43:33 What's it for? 02:43:38 The character notes on level-up report separate hp and mp 02:43:40 for dj 02:43:44 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:00 Presumably we want this to report combined ep 02:44:16 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:44:18 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:44:49 I would assume so, yes 02:44:54 Also the first version of the patch didn't completely follow the guidelines, but I fixed that for the second version and all the other ones I've submitted recently 02:45:26 I can take a look at it later if no one else does, but I'm really too tired to vet stuff for code that I'm not that personally familiar with (and possibly even that! :P) 02:46:27 that's okay. Should I bug anyone in particular instead? Or just let someone else notice this in the channel log? 02:47:06 It's probably simple enough that I imagine most anyone could take care of it. I'm just wary of doing too much stuff while fatigued, since it's so easy to overlook something silly 02:47:53 I am actually kind of surprised I am still up, given when I got up today >.> 02:48:13 happens :P 02:49:53 For when you're more rested, I've also submitted a ticket on behalf of one of my clanmates for a crash that seems to be caused by the lamp of fire (possibly only on sprint?) 02:50:05 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7161 02:50:19 crate the Tortoise (L21 HuDK) ERROR: range check error (80 / 80) (D:26) 02:50:23 since you're more familiar with that code 02:50:35 !title tortoise 02:50:35 tortoise: Armour 15-20 02:50:48 though it looks like crate just triggered the same thing in not-sprint 02:50:58 I looked at that briefly, but was not immediately sure what the problem could be 02:51:56 My friend backed up his save, and he was getting it rather consistently, so I was hoping someone with access to the save might be able to trigger it while attached to a debugger 02:52:47 if you destroy all the stairs apparently it just picks a random spot 02:52:56 still less disastrous than I was expecting somehow 02:53:03 is this spot consistent between attempts? 02:53:06 no 02:53:17 and also not consistent for different stairs 02:53:27 well, looks like the level-change code is really robust, at least. 02:54:16 also doesn't -seem- to have anything to do with where I put the shaft 02:54:22 but that would be weird if it did Ig uess 02:54:37 -!- jetnerd has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:54:37 anyway that's enough of me being silly I guess 02:55:38 Would be nice if the stack traces listed static functions 02:58:42 yes, it really would 02:58:44 Anyway, I think I know what it is 02:59:09 If one of the jitter coordinates for the paths is out of bounds 02:59:41 My best guess at present, anyway 02:59:43 feat_is_solid(grd(jitter)) 02:59:55 Probably best to just clamp it before checks 03:00:15 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 03:00:22 Probably it was happening more in that Sprint since he was near the map edge for a while or something? 03:00:41 Which in normal gameplay you are not likly to get so close to 03:02:02 Should be simple to fix, but there's no way I'm doing that now :P 03:02:21 could be 03:02:30 yeah, you should get some rest 03:02:45 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:02:52 Oh, I'm still waiting on something unrelated so I'm afraid I'll be up for a bit yet, but not going to sensibly commit any code 03:03:33 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:04:42 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:04:59 -!- ChongLi has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:08:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:08:18 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 03:08:57 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:48 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10:53 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10:58 -!- AriaB has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:11:04 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:11:29 -!- AriaB has joined ##crawl-dev 03:12:39 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:58 -!- kefka810 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:18 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:20:31 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:21:52 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:18 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:55 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:09 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:30:22 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:39 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:32:32 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:12 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:38:17 -!- twb has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 03:48:30 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 03:48:52 -!- lion has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:50:19 -!- bhaak has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:50:24 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:45 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:55:03 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:58:45 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:00:31 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:00:38 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 04:05:52 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 04:07:53 !tell DracoOmega That was the problem. I confirmed that the jitter path going outside of bounds produced the error, and attached a patch applying clamp_in_bounds to mantis7161, which fixes it. 04:07:54 qoala: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 04:26:25 -!- hyperbolic has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:09 -!- dtsund has quit [*.net *.split] 04:30:09 -!- tswett has quit [*.net *.split] 04:30:09 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 04:30:10 -!- greensnark has quit [*.net *.split] 04:30:10 -!- rphillips has quit [*.net *.split] 04:30:10 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 04:30:10 -!- stabwound has quit [*.net *.split] 04:30:36 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:30:54 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:54 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:54 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:01 -!- tgcid has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:56 -!- ahpla has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:43:51 so many good bugs lately 04:44:31 between grunt's branch stairs change and DracoOmega's terrain mods, i am amazed we didn't have more people lock into or out of branches :) 04:49:01 !tell DracoOmega i'm messing around with shops, i think the elemental items are much too cheap in shops right now ... should be 1500+ gold imo 04:49:03 mumra: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 04:49:53 can anyone remember who changed some shop inventory display stuff to use more columns, was it SamB?# 04:49:54 did that get changed 04:50:03 because the last time I saw a phial or lamp or etc it was like 2000 04:50:09 hmm 04:50:22 i just made a shop in trunk and they're 600gold 04:50:32 but shop prices are very screwy as I'm sure you know so maybe there's just some sick variance at work 04:51:04 antique shops can charge a lot more probably, they're the only shop that sell them currently 04:51:19 i was experimenting with adding a new shop type for evokers 04:52:03 but here disc of storms of 1900 gold and the elemental items are all 600 04:52:32 well to be fair the disc is usable whenever as long as you don't kill yourself with it 04:52:56 it's probably not worth 1900 though 04:52:56 !tell SamB I think you changed the shop inventory layout right? It's really weird on tiles with a high resolution now the prices are fully right-aligned, I thought the prices were completely missing at first 04:52:57 mumra: OK, I'll let samb know. 04:53:21 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:53:21 the evokers do have strong effects but they can't really just be used whenever, so pricing them could just be really hard 04:53:38 SwissStopwatch: i think all these items should be very expensive since they're infinite consumables basically 04:53:43 compounding this, of course, is the fact you probably can eventually find whichever ones you want on the floor 04:54:17 if you're going an Evo route, it's probably worth blowing 2000gold on a single one of these items in an Orc shop# 04:54:34 it seems like terrible value to me compared to many other things 04:55:04 like... you can say that they're powerful enough to justify the cost and possibly even be right, but the other side of it is that it can be pretty hard to justify buying -anything- at that cost unlessit's powerful enough to be game-defining 04:55:08 well, they are items that will be useful to you all game 04:55:12 -!- riot_ is now known as riot 04:55:24 compared to e.g. a good weapon or armour that could get superceded later 04:55:43 I mean I think part of the problem here is that shop prices are a little crazy in general 04:55:57 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:59 but I think for example you can get a vampiric bardiche for less than 2000 04:56:45 although the way weapon pluses seem to impact cost 04:57:01 it could also be like 10k if it generates with especially good enchantment 04:57:03 ok, but you can't get any benefit out of multiple bardiches 04:57:20 oh right 04:57:31 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:58:10 i still think 1500-2000 is about right for these items anyway 04:58:28 I would compare that to what wand of hasting and wand of heal wounds go for in a shop 04:59:04 I don't think that comparison would really favor the evokers at all 04:59:45 ok yeah hw is 660 gold here 05:00:59 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:40 I mean the evokers are good and all, just in lieu of the effort to attempt rebalancing shop pricing to be more sane (some of the stuff it cares about and doesn't care about is weird) 05:02:48 well ... wand of heal wands is a great item of course, but it's not necessarily going to save your life 05:03:00 it's very likely to save your life if used properly 05:03:08 the evokers also can of course 05:03:16 it's quite possible that you're getting damaged more per turn than you can heal 05:03:21 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:03:22 if you're a bad player like me 05:03:32 I would say in many situations like that the evokers aren't always going to do it either 05:04:32 like they don't need to be bargain-basement cheap but the pricing just sounds weird to me considering their availability off the floor and several comparisons 05:04:53 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:05:04 for example 600 actually -does- sound kind of low if a shop is actually generating them for that I guess 05:05:47 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 05:06:49 oh wow my antivirus thinks a crawl trunk build is malware, weird 05:06:59 currently they can only appear in antiques shops 05:07:10 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:07:11 and antiques shops have intentionally crazy prices anyway 05:07:18 this one is $1300 05:07:39 actually they can probably show up in general stores as well 05:12:08 seems hard to get them to show up in any store, ehe 05:12:31 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:18 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:13:19 i think their probability is depth dependent (unlike any other shop items) 05:13:29 should probably get off D:1 then 05:13:47 hmm, cboe at 500 seems like an odd price too 05:14:29 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:14:36 ok yeah, a stone of tremors in a general store $750 05:14:52 i guess it's not so bad because it's so extremely rare for them to turn up at all 05:15:18 but what i'm kind of working towards is making them (and also rods) more likely to show up in shops, 05:15:31 given that there will be a few more misc items and rods will be less broken 05:15:58 in a way i think it's fine if floor spawns are as common or even rarer than at current, 05:16:07 but it's possible to get the items for a big chunk of gold in more shops 05:18:01 I mean in a way shop prices are crazy enough that attempting to balance one particular thing in them at all is unproductive 05:18:14 since probably other things need redoing too 05:19:12 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 05:20:55 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:22:21 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:44 I just wonder how much of a part of an evoker playstyle those items would even be 05:22:58 certainly a part, but probably not enough to enable it on their own 05:23:22 depends what evoker playstyle even means, which I guess is what you're trying to come up with anyway 05:27:21 i think it's about carrying a bunch of different gadgets in using different combinations of them depending on the situation 05:28:16 I think one question there ends up being whether the inventory can support that 05:28:17 but they shouldn't be able to carry a game just on the back of those items 05:28:27 mm. 05:28:32 just like a mage can't exist just off spellcasting 05:28:53 -!- pantaril_ is now known as pantaril 05:28:59 well, they *can* exist just on spellcasting but it's a lot more annoying than having some good melee skills to back it up 05:29:03 yeah 05:29:16 meanwhile people exist entirely off melee skills and defenses on a regular basis 05:29:26 with just some light god backup, frequently not even L2 charms 05:29:33 (maybe heavy if that's Trog) 05:29:42 they probably use wands too 05:29:47 mm, I suppose 05:29:58 but it's fair for evocations to not be a primary playstyle like those anyway 05:30:50 And it already does exist as a viable secondary option as things currently stand, but I suppose what you're trying to do is make it more interesting and also not entirely reliant on certain powerful items happening to exist early 05:31:04 i'd like it to be *possible* to base a character mostly on using evocations (without nemelex) 05:31:08 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 05:31:46 well, both possible and interesting, and it should feel very different to using spells 05:32:23 given that spells do so much, it feels like it would be difficult to not share space with them at least a bit 05:32:45 well yeah the effects and generally damage or summons 05:32:49 I mean, I guess currently that space is that rods basically just cast spells 05:32:50 s/and/are/ 05:33:17 lightning rod is good because it has a mechanic that make you think differently 05:33:32 i have two ideaas for other rods like that right now 05:33:48 I would say that my use of lightning rod was mostly just me narrowing the second shot to mostly ignore the secondary effect 05:34:03 since I did have a fairly evo-heavy game relying onit for certain things 05:34:22 it's very good for dealing with groups with the spread though 05:34:26 it's possible that's not always correct to do I suppose, but I think when I've seen other people use it, it also ends up sort of being that way 05:34:54 but then, my natural instinct is to break fights up into as many pieces as possible 05:35:12 -!- greensna1k has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:18 but at any rate it's definitely the most interesting thing rods have going for them right now 05:35:25 well that is generally the best tactic with any build :) 05:35:39 where possible, anyway 05:36:05 I wonder if that just makes it difficult to design gimmicks like that nd have them be meaningful, but then again... 05:36:06 i think evo items could be doing more interesting things like shaping the battlefield to help with that 05:36:36 well one of my ideas is a rod with a coned shotgun-like blast 05:36:41 cleaving is quite popular despite a certain set of players dropping axes way down on their weapon tier list because of the hit to damage axes took 05:36:42 and each shot the spread gets bigger 05:37:04 so it's not like there's no space for that sort of thing even if classic tactics say otherwise 05:37:10 so if you're against a single target you don't want to fire it in consecutive turns 05:37:41 so... wait a turn and it goes back to normal spread, or just use it once and go on to something else 05:37:45 ? 05:37:52 wait or turn or do something else for a turn 05:38:11 mm, sounds reasonable 05:38:16 on the other hand against groups you'll want to use the spread since it does more total damage spread over a bigger area 05:38:43 but you won't have access to it right away, so you'll need to decide how to manage that particular trait 05:39:36 I would say that the real barrier isn't necessarily whether you can come up with interesting effects, but how powerful they can be made 05:39:44 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:39:59 but then the interesting effects are what justifies it as a different style, I guess 05:40:10 -!- tswett has quit [*.net *.split] 05:40:10 -!- greensnark has quit [*.net *.split] 05:40:10 -!- rphillips has quit [*.net *.split] 05:40:10 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 05:40:10 -!- stabwound has quit [*.net *.split] 05:41:10 like I'm aware that there are serious objections from a lot of people to freezing cloud being on rods (although I guess part of that is that fcloud's effect doesn't depend all that much on power...) 05:41:15 i think if rod power is more strongly dependent on investing in Evo, and if the recharge mechanism isn't resting-based, they can be available earlier 05:41:36 but something that powerful (not exactly that effect, mind) or more so probably does need to exist 05:41:54 even if it's not actually so powerful without 20 evo or whatever 05:42:13 there can easily be less clouds and they can be very short-lived 05:42:26 the problem isn't in clouds themselves 05:42:27 And I guess it's weird because rod power is definitely dependent on evo but some of the better rods don't care much about power 05:42:52 like finding a rod of demonology early on one of my games made for a very easy earlygame 05:43:10 because suddenly it's call imp with no real skill investment needed 05:44:08 I basically just wonder how high the power level can be pushed in relation to magic and weapon play 05:44:10 rod power could also be dependent on rod enchantment 05:44:21 i don't know if anyone has suggested this yet 05:44:37 so you have to actually invest the scrolls in it to get really good effects 05:44:56 if they haven't it's a rather obvious thing to not consider, especially since I'm sure a lot of people already believe that to have an effect 05:45:24 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:24 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:25 -!- squimmy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:45:27 well the descriptions just say that enchantment increases the charge limit 05:45:41 so there's no reason to think it affects power as well 05:45:44 -!- geekosaur has quit [Excess Flood] 05:45:46 A lot of people surely don't read those 05:45:54 ??rod 05:45:55 rod[1/4]: Contains a few spells. Wield and Evoke to cast them. Uses an internal mana pool which recharges gradually over time, even if not wielded. A scroll of recharging increases a rod's limit and enchantment by 1d2 (up to a max of 17 and +9 respectively), and (always) recharges its mp to full. See {rods} for a list of types. 05:45:56 But that's not too important anyway 05:46:12 same way a lot of people don't know about mindelay or etc 05:46:45 I do wonder how many recharge scrolls need to be in a game to enable that use of it 05:47:01 it's also not very clear whether rod enchantment affects its melee use either 05:47:15 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 05:47:16 SwissStopwatch: maybe ?ew could work on them also 05:47:21 hmmm 05:47:41 clearly go all the way and make them half-decent melee weapons too (OK, staves already exist for that) 05:47:53 yes i was just typing something to that effect 05:48:15 it'd be good if they weren't always completely pointless in melee though 05:48:26 otherwise there's not much point in having them work in melee 05:48:38 at least some of them would probably would want special thematic effects 05:49:10 yeah, make them compete a little with branded weapons 05:49:30 i had devastator recently and it was awesome 05:49:33 -!- BonSequitur has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:49:35 well, maybe not quite like that - possibly they aren't meant to be a primary weapon at all 05:49:53 but even so there can be a point to attacking with them 05:49:57 well like i say, why have them be melee weapons at all if they aren't meant to be used 05:50:43 i guess the low damage could be ok if they had a chance to stun/confuse/blind or some other effect 05:51:54 possibly something like a rod of destruction could do evo-based extra damage of a type appropriate to whatever's on the rod 05:52:20 It would seem weird for them to be competitive with good basetype weapons though 05:52:49 -!- sk3 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:53:16 Maybe staves are sufficient evo-melee support, although that does bring up the issue of crossover to magic, too 05:53:40 i think rather than being directly competitive, the effects should work well alongside other attacks 05:53:58 so e.g. rod of demonology has a chance to create a demon when you hit things 05:54:03 even when out of charges 05:54:34 it's possible that the effects don't have to be applicable to every situation 05:55:11 yeah 05:55:19 so you'll pick which rod to melee with 05:55:31 for every rod, anyway - like demon summoning is obviously broadly applicable, but something still thematic but on the narrower side would be abjuring stuff it hits 05:55:50 yeah for rod of warding possibly 05:56:07 (of course we're talking about rods which currently i think need removing or redesigning) 05:56:17 would frequently not be useful (especially in light of classic tactics demanding you just run away from dangerous summons), but could sometimes do something 05:56:26 rods that are just a list of ordinary spells are the worst ones basically 05:57:07 rod of warding is the sort of thing that could get remade into something a lot stronger 05:57:34 since there are plenty of things possible in that theme if the power level can be made to fit 05:58:35 like protecting against a certain enemy's attacks as long as the rod is wielded 05:59:39 (The immediate consideration for such a thing being "How strong would this be against someone like Antaeus") 06:01:17 brainstorming non-broken versions of that sounds almost like it would be productive for me to do, maybe 06:02:20 bubble of warding 06:02:36 creates a bubble of energy that pushes summoned creatures away from you 06:02:51 a rod spell but expires when you unwield the rod 06:02:58 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Quit: Wrong button bad with computers] 06:03:19 I was thinking of a version of that, although it'd be bad if that only worked on summoned stuff 06:03:31 since then it would be a lame rod that doesn't do anything that tactics can't 06:03:48 mmm 06:04:30 well it'd help getting past the summons to take down the summoner (with another non-wieldable evokable possibly) 06:04:49 There probably are balance implications to making an actual good defensive item, even if they end up being somewhat mitigated by having to wield it 06:05:00 like what I'd really wonder about it how much it helps with rune/orb ninjas 06:05:29 i had another XP-recharge item idea 06:05:34 something like "Gong of Golubria" 06:05:37 Well I mean it's fine to have stuff that helps deal with summons, it probably just would need other things too 06:05:50 freezes monsters in time and space, not for very many turns 06:05:55 otherwise it might not compete well with <+5 06:06:07 mmm, sounds fun 06:06:35 you can't damage them but it gives you some free turns to heal/buff/escape 06:06:38 and powerful 06:06:42 yes, very powerful 06:06:49 evoke Galaxy Stop 06:07:03 i'm considering making it extremely loud and only freezing things in LOS 06:07:13 so it could attract more nasties before your turns are up 06:07:15 that would be sort of funny 06:07:35 almost feels like the evokable version of cblink, in a way 06:07:39 yeah 06:08:37 probably completely broken 06:09:04 well cblink is also super powerful 06:09:49 and there are surely more drawbacks that could be added 06:09:56 but we have -ctele floors to mitigate than in key areas 06:10:02 i guess the gong could fail there 06:10:06 or give you say only 1 free turn 06:10:39 but it's absolutely a potentially "save me from the brink of death" item 06:10:55 I wonder how often 1 turn on Zot:5 would be worth waking up everything else on the level 06:11:06 hmm, good point 06:11:25 (It's an actual open question) 06:11:40 if you are otherwise going to die, it's probably worth it 06:11:56 I would say that if it did work there as described it would possibly be a very strong tool for ninjaing 06:12:12 i guess it could slow everything down to an extreme level instead of freezing completely 06:12:17 since if you gonged and got a few turns out of it then it wouldn't be all that hard to apport the orb 06:12:37 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:12:51 i'm thinking that even with 27 evo, it would be at most like 3 free turns 06:13:08 especially since likely you created a huge traffic jam that prevent reinforcements from the other lung from getting through a mass of frozen orb guardians 06:13:41 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:12 That does remind me that I wonder if there's any design space for actual single-use items that require a certain amount of evo to get anything out of 06:15:01 i think there is, but quite often those effects make good cards 06:15:02 a scroll that required evo to work well might be sort of weird, considering the number of strong effects on them that you get with no such investment 06:15:08 mm, cards, right 06:15:22 which, of course, puts it into Nemelex realm by default 06:15:59 and this is another open question: given an effect idea, how to decide whether it's better as a wand/scroll/card/rod/misc... 06:16:47 reusability and availability? 06:16:49 probably by designing it and then making a judgement call on how it fits (same way every other effect ended up where it is, right) 06:17:23 Like it's hard to tell from my perspective whether such an effort went into how the effects in those categories are all arranged now 06:17:30 I would guess not really for most 06:17:35 well exactly, that's how it's currently done, because we don't even have any rough guidelines on what the design space IS for each different item class 06:18:02 a tree that grows fruits you can eat to change your attributes 06:18:12 make that one a race clearly 06:18:18 mikee_: do you have to carry this tree around with you that would be awesome 06:18:25 haha yes 06:18:57 I like that I didn't believe that that race existed when I was told, my reasoning being that the only place I'd seen mention of it was on the chaosforge wiki 06:19:26 hang on what? 06:19:33 oh he is thinking of elm 06:19:36 yes 06:19:37 ahh 06:19:45 i was referring to a proposal on tavern 06:19:49 wow 06:19:57 it was the proposal that broke badforum 06:19:57 something about balancing ogres with a special tree item to fix their attributes 06:20:10 I would also use the same logic if I'd only heard of something on tavern 06:20:20 and I think I remember seeing that post now 06:20:57 I think really the weirdest division is between scroll and card 06:21:03 ??badforum[126 06:21:04 badforum[126/145]: This is a tree with 13 fruits (pomegranates?) on it. It is pretty heavy (~100 aum). Eating one will activate the tree. One of the fruits starts to rot. Eating this one will act like a manual for training a random Spell School. It will also cause nausea [...] it should give more xp to ogres, to compensate for their appalling aptitudes. 06:21:05 since a lot of the effects overlap 06:21:11 it's basically all the worst ideas ever rolled into one 06:21:18 i like how it even specifically has nausea 06:21:49 well it's only natural that such an idea would end up on tavern at some point 06:22:08 as if ogres really need the help badly... 06:22:30 a long time ago the premise that ogres need help would have been true 06:22:40 I know at some point it was a "challenge race" 06:22:55 the funny thing is that a lot of people seem to think that the current incarnation is a "challenge race" 06:23:07 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:16 instead of a race with several powerful facets that can be used to one's advantage with a little thought 06:23:18 i think they're more or less just right currently 06:23:19 or with not much thought 06:23:34 since OgBe, not the deep thinker's combo probably 06:24:40 but yeah a lot of scrolls and cards have similar effects, and each one has at least a couple strong effects that the other doesn't give 06:24:41 i guess scrolls are suited to simple, predictable effects 06:25:14 whereas cards tend to have some double-edged stuff going on and are slightly more complicated to understand 06:25:19 yeah... a lot of times cards aren't very good unless they're guaranteed at L1 or L2 06:25:25 since each card can produce more than one distinct effect 06:25:36 which is what Nemelex does, along with all the other things Nemelex also does that support cards 06:25:47 even when that's not the case though there are a lot of 'good' cards you might never want to carry as scrolls 06:25:56 like would you carry scrolls of swap? =P 06:26:16 difficult to justify an inventory slot on it 06:26:25 which is maybe a problem for some evoker ideas in general 06:27:01 -!- Rjs has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:09 a scroll of tomb, meanwhile, would be carried by a lot of people and also probably be too good 06:27:16 yet it gets to exist as a card 06:27:18 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:27:29 because it was balanced by card power 06:27:57 it can be downright dangerous too 06:28:00 high power tomb is pretty much on par with a god ability 06:28:14 since it can block off your retreat but leave you still in the firing line of whatever you wanted shielding from 06:28:31 holy word maybe is the best example of it being a simple, predictable effect (not that people always predict what happens when they read it in tomb at low HP near a bunch of severely danaged guardian mummies) 06:28:41 for scrolls, I mean 06:29:05 albeit, not necessarily useful as many places as some powerful, predictible effects 06:29:14 also did I just spell that 2 ways in 2 lines, I'm bad 06:29:30 -!- Riddim has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:29:33 predictuble 06:29:41 predictyble 06:30:26 probably if not for holy word I'd say the defining factor of scrolls is that you get a lot of them, too 06:30:46 most games will find several dozen teleports, which is handy since it's an important effect 06:31:02 a handful of blinks, fogs, fear, etc 06:31:23 not an infinite supply (although teleport is close enough), but readily availabe 06:31:37 decks not so much, unless you have Nemelex of course 06:31:49 like plenty of decks exist, but the cards you want in them maybe not 06:32:26 so something on a scroll should probably be made with it being available to everyone several times a game in mind 06:33:11 so there is basically a stage where the balance is usefulness of item per inventory slot space 06:33:20 -!- qoala has quit [] 06:33:39 most decks are never going to be that useful for non-nemelexites 06:35:13 and for a misc item to be worth it, it has to be either very powerful or frequently useful (rods) 06:35:52 the weird part is that some races do get a few more slots than others 06:36:12 although the one that gets the most really can't use the most attractive items that are balanced in that fashion 06:36:29 (and I do mean free slots instead of total slots) 06:36:36 box of beasts is definitely better in my new version but it feels too much like any other summoning tool really 06:37:15 SwissStopwatch: of course, but it's only a small number of slots difference really, and extra AC/resists is always going to be better than one or two more evokables 06:37:16 summoning is pretty prevalent by now anyway 06:37:53 someone suggested box of beasts could generate chimera, i quite liked that 06:38:08 given that there are weapons, gods, evokables, and spells that can all generate allies 06:39:04 -!- Nicksvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:39:37 I guess box of beasts is also the rare evokable that can actually run out permanently 06:39:40 so there's that 06:40:33 tome of destruction does that too, it also needs fixing of course 06:40:59 yeah, those don't seem to be high on anyone's to use list 06:41:13 no 06:41:36 well an item that can fail 1/3 of the time no matter what you do, where failure can produce effects that are very dangerous to you ... 06:41:51 yeah not a shock (except maybe to you if you use it) 06:41:57 and it could go poof before it even does anything useful 06:42:01 (and then get hit by a shock) 06:43:09 anyway I can at least toss rod of warding effects around in the back of my mind 06:43:30 yes, any new suggestions are welcome 06:44:23 if rods were all even half as interesting as lightning rod they'd be something of a distinct item group 06:44:31 instead of "spells for non-spellcasters" 06:44:33 -!- yogidabear has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:51:55 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:58:24 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:09:18 -!- friendlybee1 is now known as friendlybee 07:09:44 -!- dosman711` is now known as dosman711 07:10:56 I've got two new rod ideas, both being multi-spell 07:11:03 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:12:48 -!- Xenobreeder|2 is now known as Xenobreeder 07:13:02 1. sort of DoomRL's take on the plasma gun; you can choose a single shot, a burst or a long depress, the third being the most effective but taking longer than 10 aut by default 07:14:01 in real Doom, the plasma gun wasn't usable immediately after you stopped shooting 07:14:18 and long burst hampered visibility 07:15:28 Not unless you're standing in one spot like you'd never do in Doom. 07:16:01 so in Crawl we can simulate this by not allowing you to react to what's going on: you take, say, 25 aut to dump all 17 charges in one go 07:16:16 Bloaxor: depends on the direction of movement, yes 07:16:42 In Doom you'd usually be straferunning and thus see exactly what's happening after you shoot. 07:16:54 (in Doom everyone who's not new to the game straferuns all the time, so the movement is diagonal to the direction of shooting) 07:16:57 yeah 07:17:10 er, yeah to straferunning, no to being able to see 07:17:38 DoomRL really is just a parody of Doom. 07:17:49 you get hit far too often. :x 07:18:38 cacodemons being scary opponents instead of "you got hit? Were you unable to move or distracted by a lot of opponents? If no, how the hell did you manage _that?" 07:19:03 Cacodemons being actual threats other than chaingun/chainsaw fodder. 07:21:27 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:21:45 kilobyte: sounds pretty good. what was the other one? 07:22:00 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:17 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:23:18 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:24:13 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:25:56 the boomstick! 07:27:02 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:28:25 there's also a third idea, melee-only rods of striking, but this would be broken by ruination planned on rod_rework branch 07:30:44 -!- rphillips has quit [*.net *.split] 07:30:44 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 07:30:45 -!- stabwound has quit [*.net *.split] 07:33:05 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:34:24 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 07:34:24 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:23 kilobyte: if theres a good reason for rods to have to be wielded to evoke then of course it would stay that way 07:38:39 kilobyte: to me, wielding something that i cant use to hit monsters with is extremely annoying 07:39:57 you can... 07:39:59 kilobyte: enhancer staves do it pretty well imo. rods could be much weaker in melee and still not force a swap for every fucking ufetubus. 07:40:07 i think if they were made actually competitive in some way with proper melee weapons there would be a point, other than the interface argument 07:40:10 much weaker than enhancer staves i mean 07:40:16 not much weaker than they currently are 07:40:24 with something like +15 slaying they become tolerable... 07:40:33 it's far easier to enchant rods than weapons, and they tend to start enchanted, so they're not worthless 07:40:47 obviously, a +9,+9 club is still a club 07:41:01 -!- nCrazed_ is now known as nCrazed 07:41:04 -!- fdel has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:41:06 yes and can't be branded 07:41:08 how about making every rod a melee only rod of striking? 07:41:22 melee attacks expend a charge and are actually useful 07:41:51 well if the wand also has spells, you probably don't want to use the charges up in melee 07:42:04 especially if the recharging mechanism is made non-time-based 07:42:15 hmm 07:42:22 also true 07:42:31 just adding an appropriate brand might also work 07:42:51 earlier i was thinking they could do interesting things rather than brands 07:42:51 and maybe evo based slaying 07:43:07 e.g. a chance to daze or blind for 1-3 turns 07:43:18 should depend on the rod, yeah 07:43:19 interesting things = a lot of work 07:43:46 which takes a lot of time 07:43:47 well that effect wouldn't in itself be hard to implement for a single rod type 07:43:53 but coming up with all the designs will take time sure 07:44:03 -!- shmup has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:44:12 all i want to do is kill ufetubi 07:44:17 not blind them 07:44:23 they cant do anything anyway 07:44:34 having to swap weapons to fight a hell sentinel is totally fine 07:45:13 yeah 07:45:14 another option would be allowing both evocation with v by wielding, and evocation by V, like wands 07:45:24 they can't be competitive for all situations of course 07:45:37 especially since you'll want to have a rod in hands for that hell sentinel standing behind the ufetubi 07:45:45 but if you're heavily Evo based then you'd probably take down a sentinel with your most powerful rods/items 07:45:57 yeah, inacc is pretty good 07:46:10 every other rod, not so much against hell sentinels 07:46:14 alefury: having both would mean you have a strong incentive to use the latter, even when it's less convenient 07:46:16 Hell Sentinel (071) | Spd: 10 | HD: 19 | HP: 121-164 | AC/EV: 25/3 08(spiny) | Dam: 40, 25 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4645 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), melee, iron shot (3d33) | Sz: Large | Int: high. 07:46:16 %??hell sentinel 07:46:24 innacc is powerful but i think it could be replaced with something more interesting 07:46:41 kilobyte: my "iron rod" idea might be quite similar to a boomstick btw 07:46:42 inacc is a pretty unique effect 07:46:50 my point was every other evocable is completely resisted by hell sentinels 07:46:54 it has a spread that increases each consecutive turn that you fire it 07:46:57 except for the summon part of some 07:47:25 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:47:32 alefury: stone of tremors 07:47:39 oh, right... 07:47:48 also tome of destruction once that's fixed 07:48:09 the tome actually sort of works 07:48:18 yeah, if you want to die 07:48:22 -.- 07:48:49 i think i would rather just go away instead of using the tome, every time 07:48:50 it has two flaws: 1. it is likely to disappear without warning, 2. looks like a book but doesn't act like one 07:49:08 3. non-trivial bad effects on failure which can happen 1/3 of the time 07:49:42 also random element, which makes it useless sometimes even when it works 07:50:09 it's meant to be a risky item 07:50:43 why would i use a risky item when not desperate? why would i use it instead of something that is likely to save me when i am desperate? 07:50:44 i think the risk is too high to ever be advisable to use it against a serious threat 07:51:04 we have tons of perfectly safe items that need some way to balance them: limited charges, xp based recharge, rod recharge, etc 07:51:16 like swords? 07:51:24 or walking away? 07:51:33 (not technically an item) 07:52:14 tomes on the other hand can be used every round, with usually big fat effects, yet are likely to backfire 07:52:52 so why would i use it? 07:53:08 depends on the character, of course 07:53:36 okay, nagas and chei worshipers have trouble *walking away from things they should not fight* 07:53:38 just like Xom, plenty of people call him the worst god 07:54:30 _some_ of the randomness could be toned away 07:55:54 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:25 for an item to be useful there need to be some situations where its better than every other action, taking all the costs into account 07:57:47 i think these are extremely rare for tomes of destruction 08:01:27 i'm generally under the impression that nobody ever uses the misc evokables because they're all reknowned for being so unrelible and hazardous 08:01:42 people are still struggling to change their opinion on that with the new items 08:01:57 comparisons to Xom don't really help the case for the items :) 08:02:43 -!- geekosaur has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:02:50 the new disc is pretty strong with relec, i have used it in zot 08:03:00 yeah Disc certainly sees some use 08:03:14 i regretted it, though, all the draconians were on my ass after that 08:03:16 but you're always guaranteed to do some damage with it, even if it'll damage you in the process 08:03:18 including tiamat 08:03:26 haha 08:03:37 still, it was good for killing draconians 08:03:41 it was an open level too :/ 08:04:32 -!- Naruni has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:05:52 when i tested in wizmode it does seem to do a LOT of self-damage at high Evo 08:06:48 -!- cindy_k has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:06:59 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1449-gf1ae18b: Distinguish randarts more carefully (#7160) 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f1ae18b5e2d9 08:07:51 -!- cindy_k has quit [Changing host] 08:07:55 -!- SomeoneAwful has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:07:59 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:08:15 -!- Naruni has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:35 <|amethyst> !tell DracoOmega can #7157 (MfAq eating stairs) be marked resolved now? 08:08:36 |amethyst: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 08:11:41 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:13:55 mumra: its okay with relec and good defenses 08:14:34 mumra: also, against multiple targets 08:19:08 yep 08:19:11 i wasn't saying it was 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[*.net *.split] 10:01:44 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 10:01:44 -!- N78291 has quit [*.net *.split] 10:01:44 -!- us17 has quit [*.net *.split] 10:01:44 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 10:01:52 -!- Grunt_ is now known as Grunt 10:01:58 -!- krag has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:03 -!- mumra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:09 You open FreeNode like a pillowcase!!! 10:02:18 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:47 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:37 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:16 -!- anichowy1 is now known as anichowy 10:07:32 -!- nCrazed is now known as unMarked 10:07:57 -!- unMarked is now known as nCrazed 10:12:29 <|amethyst> LexAckson: You split the hog like an IRC network! 10:12:42 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:13:33 haha 10:14:01 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 10:17:09 * Grunt appears! 10:17:16 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:25 ackack the Shatterer (L16 TrBe) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 403 failed on turn 34963. (Snake:1) 10:17:35 !lm ackack crash -log 10:17:36 1. ackack, XL16 TrBe, T:34963 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/ackack/crash-ackack-20130605-151723.txt 10:18:03 ...more hog problems :b 10:27:03 -!- ivan``_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:27:52 rubinko (L15 MfTm) ERROR: range check error (-1 / 70) (D (Sprint)) 10:29:27 damn 10:29:37 i really have no idea how that's happening 10:30:40 it's nothing obvious in the hog code itself 10:31:08 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:14 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:32:04 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:16 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 10:34:47 <|amethyst> mumra_: you are looking at 0.12, right? 10:34:58 <|amethyst> mumra_: weren't there some commits you didn't cherry-pick there? 10:36:16 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 10:37:40 -!- Sudocode has quit [Client Quit] 10:37:52 -!- mumra__ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:38:13 -!- krag2 has joined 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##crawl-dev 10:59:01 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:59:19 -!- Mu_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:59:21 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:59:26 -!- itsmu is now known as Mu_ 10:59:38 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:01:14 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:01:40 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1450-gc203111: Better behaviour if _fixup_branch_stairs() sees multiple branch exits. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 37+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c20311161da8 11:02:41 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1450-gc203111 (34) 11:09:56 -!- floatboth has quit [Quit: floatboth] 11:10:26 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:35 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:12:51 <|amethyst> Grunt: err, does that work? 11:12:56 <|amethyst> Grunt: for (vector::iterator it = (stairs.begin())++; 11:13:05 |amethyst: remarkably, yes. 11:13:22 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:22 -!- krag has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:22 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:22 -!- Nivim has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:22 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:44 -!- Sequell has quit [Excess Flood] 11:13:50 At least, cases where that code triggers still give the requisite one exit. 11:13:52 <|amethyst> Grunt: it really seems like it should be prefix ++ 11:14:03 <|amethyst> or just + 1 11:14:47 <|amethyst> since vector has a random access iterator 11:14:51 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:51 <|amethyst> Grunt: I worry that the current behaviour depends on copy elision 11:18:03 i though iterators don't copy on assignment 11:20:15 <|amethyst> LexAckson: what do you mean? 11:21:12 maybe i don't understand the code 11:21:38 just that, when you assign it = (stairs.begin()) 11:22:40 it is just like a copy by ref 11:23:13 so that it will be + 1 even though it used post ++ 11:23:21 -!- ontoclasm1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:23:36 <|amethyst> copying iterators is supposed to create a distinct iterator 11:24:06 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1451-g93fb1ab: Touch last commit so |amethyst and LexAckson stop complaining. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=93fb1abb9f26 11:24:19 haha 11:24:27 <|amethyst> Grunt: thank you :) 11:24:27 (<3 fast Chei) 11:26:07 <|amethyst> Grunt: not to complain since I do the same thing, but I always feel conflicted when I write vector::iterator 11:26:08 i am still a c++ noob 11:26:33 <|amethyst> Grunt: since if it were an array I'd probably use an index rather than a pointer 11:26:47 I would much prefer to write "auto it = stairs.begin() + 1;", but still. 11:26:47 :b 11:26:54 <|amethyst> well, that 11:26:57 (sadly, we can't do that :( ) 11:26:59 <|amethyst> or 11:27:23 I feel worse about treating vectors like arrays than using iterators. 11:28:00 It bothers me to see all the "for (int i = 0; i < vector.size(); i++)" throughout Crawl code <_< 11:30:06 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:30:24 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:32:11 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 11:32:37 <|amethyst> Grunt: I don't mind treating them as arrays since they are intended to be used that way 11:32:50 <|amethyst> vectors specifically, that is, not other types 11:33:41 <|amethyst> and if you're inserting during your loop you pretty much have to use indices 11:38:41 <|amethyst> however, once we can use C++11 in crawl I'll probably prefer for (const type &element : vec) in most cases 11:39:47 <|amethyst> where you don't need the index or to adjust the iterator 11:40:11 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:41 why not c++11 btw? 11:47:38 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:48:32 alefury: support for compilation on older systems 11:48:49 older systems? 11:48:50 i'm not sure if we can EVER use C++11 :( 11:49:05 <|amethyst> macs in particular, where the only official gcc that can produce PPC binaries is 4.1 or so 11:49:08 alefury: legacy compilers 11:49:23 one might drop ppc support.... 11:49:29 <|amethyst> also Visual Studio (which does have some C++11 but is also missing a fair amount) 11:49:39 <|amethyst> alefury: that will probably happen someday :) 11:49:43 so its mumra's fault? 11:49:45 :P 11:50:47 <|amethyst> for that matter, chei has an old gcc (4.1.2) and CSZO only 4.4 11:51:02 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/vstudio/hh567368.aspx 11:51:18 the right-hand column shows which features are available in the MSVC version we support now 11:52:36 mumra do you work on vstudio? 11:52:39 <|amethyst> I guess CSZO could stand a dist-upgrade now that wheezy is out; Chei I can't really upgrade because it's not my system, but I might move the bot to CSZO at some point 11:52:44 thats a lot of nos 11:53:10 wheezy update was pretty okay 11:53:10 LexAckson: yes 11:53:18 <|amethyst> the nicest ones are supported by VS2012, but old g++ is still a problem 11:53:19 oh, cool 11:53:53 <|amethyst> http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html 11:54:17 <|amethyst> nearly everything is 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12:09:28 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:28 -!- Grimalki1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:28 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:28 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:28 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:28 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:55 -!- Zaba is now known as Guest46880 12:09:56 -!- anichowy has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 12:11:40 -!- Slowpoke_Man is now known as BlastHardcheese 12:11:58 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:10 <|amethyst> !lg kinch 12:12:10 148. kinch the Gusty (L2 TeAE), slain by a jackal on D:1 on 2013-06-05 16:33:16, with 51 points after 513 turns and 0:01:31. 12:12:14 <|amethyst> !lg kinch temple 12:12:16 No games for kinch (temple). 12:13:29 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 12:13:45 <|amethyst> !lm kinch x=tiles 12:13:45 796. [2013-06-05 16:46:51] [tiles=true] kinch the Firebug (L6 TeFE) became a worshipper of Sif Muna on turn 4593. (Temple) 12:14:33 <|amethyst> Could someone tell kinch in webtiles to save his game so I can fix his save? I can't connect to webtiles at the moment 12:14:41 <|amethyst> (this computer has an ancient browser) 12:14:49 <|amethyst> I mean 12:14:54 <|amethyst> I can work from the backup he posted 12:15:13 <|amethyst> but can't put the replacement in place while he's logged in 12:15:14 <|amethyst> thanks 12:15:22 <|amethyst> I'll mention in the bug once it's fixed 12:16:42 -!- Zermako has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:17:00 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1451-g93fb1ab (34) 12:17:52 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:19 so if we have spell lists in monster descriptions 12:28:57 should you be able to access the spell description from the monster description screen? 12:29:32 or is it enough to just list the names of the spells 12:30:00 also, do all monster spells have descriptions? 12:32:25 <|amethyst> 1. sounds like a good idea 2. I doubt it 3. there are plenty of non-spell monster abilities that should be documented too 12:33:39 <|amethyst> 3 probably depends on #5676 12:33:53 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:34:19 <|amethyst> or, rather, related stuff that should probably accompany doing stuff with #5676 (allow 'spells' to be classified by source) 12:34:36 okay 12:35:03 <|amethyst> this would have the added benefit of fixing 'monster' 12:35:06 red devil (054) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 22-40 | AC/EV: 7/13 | Dam: 19 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(65), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 296 | Sp: blink | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 12:35:06 <|amethyst> %??red devil 12:35:14 <|amethyst> want to guess why it thinks they can blink? 12:35:24 haha 12:35:49 because red 5's blink? 12:35:57 i have no idea 12:35:59 <|amethyst> not quite that dumb 12:36:02 haha 12:36:06 <|amethyst> because of their hop attack 12:36:11 <|amethyst> it moves them, right? 12:36:14 ahh 12:36:29 wow 12:36:49 <|amethyst> the only way 'monster' has to check if they have blink as a special ability (as opposed to a spell) is to fire their special ability and see if they moved 12:37:07 haha 12:37:19 that's like checking that a gun is loaded by pulling the trigger 12:37:32 <|amethyst> 50 times in a row in fact 12:37:35 haha 12:37:46 <|amethyst> because mons_special_ability might choose to do nothing, or there might be multiple things it could do 12:38:28 vault warden (04@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 68-110 | AC/EV: 1/13 | Dam: 36 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(64) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2287 | Sp: seal doors | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 12:38:28 <|amethyst> %??vault warden 12:38:40 <|amethyst> To do that one, I made a door and checked whether it was sealed :P 12:38:55 heh 12:39:09 sounds like a hassle 12:39:21 <|amethyst> but there are currently reasons to put things in mon_special_ability rather than do them as a "spell" 12:40:54 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:29 is it feasible to add spell lists to monster descriptions at this point? 12:42:02 i mean, is it better to wait for something like 5657 12:42:46 <|amethyst> I'm not sure about the best thing to do for monsters with variable spell lists 12:43:03 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:43:20 <|amethyst> And, yeah, I think it would be good to exclude things like dragon breath 12:43:33 <|amethyst> which is implemented as a spell for some but not all dragons 12:43:35 in the issue dpeg notes that all lists should be in there seperately 12:43:53 -!- tw_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:44:00 <|amethyst> LexAckson: I'm not sure how to best get that information 12:44:16 are the spell lists rolled? 12:44:21 <|amethyst> LexAckson: particularly in a way that also works for custom vault monsters (some of which still exist) 12:44:31 or is it just a choice from a few sets 12:44:37 hmm 12:44:48 <|amethyst> the latter 12:45:35 okay 12:45:58 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 12:46:18 i assume the monster's spells are stored in the actor somewhere? 12:47:38 they are but you can't go on just that list 12:47:41 it's complicated 12:47:53 <|amethyst> and you don't have access to that list probably 12:48:18 <|amethyst> since viewing a monster's description goes by the monster_info (sanitized to avoid info leaks), not the monster itself 12:48:32 -!- Guest46880 has quit [Changing host] 12:48:32 -!- Guest46880 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:35 the monster's book(s) in book-data.h tell you what spells a monster should/can have 12:48:37 -!- Guest46880 is now known as Zaba 12:49:00 but vault redefines can change the list, of course that shouldn't happen lots, at least not outside sprint 12:49:16 the thing is a vault defined monster could have a randomised list of spells 12:49:35 so telling the player what spells the monster has is giving away spoilers the player otherwise doesn't have access to 12:49:43 * elliott can think of a good solution 12:50:28 well, some existing cases of this it would certainly be ok to tell the player (e.g. meatsprint) 12:50:42 i see 12:50:42 and maybe fix some vaults that do this so the spell list is always predictable 12:51:29 once spells are bound, they have no ties to the monster book 12:51:34 -!- kilobyte_ is now known as kilobyte 12:53:19 -!- kickascii has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:54:02 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 12:54:50 i thought with the right kinds of special casing to get rid of weird stuff, you could use the actor's spells, but if there is no access 12:55:26 it needs to show you all the spells a monster can possibly have from all sets, not just the spells that specific monster has 12:55:27 then maybe it is easier to just use book-data.h and not worry about vault monsters right away 12:55:40 yeah 12:55:42 that's also true 12:57:08 why? The monster's spells tell you what the monster has right now, book lookup will tell you what it can normally have. 12:58:40 info leak? 12:59:18 if a monster has multiple vault redefines, I don't like that 12:59:24 also, i don't see any monster spell lists in book-data.h 12:59:33 that's for the player 12:59:49 monster books are in mon-spll.h 12:59:58 (yay 8.3, yay DOS) 13:00:06 Power 1 warp card is unaffected by -cTele by minmay 13:00:23 -!- Keskital1 is now known as Keskitalo 13:00:42 if a wizard has MST_NO_SPELLS, there's randomness involved 13:00:48 s/wizard/monster/ 13:01:40 cool 13:03:03 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:48 kraken (13X) | Spd: 14 | HD: 16 | HP: 180-232 | AC/EV: 20/0 | Dam: 50 | cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(64), 12drown | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 3227 | Sp: spawn tentacles, ink cloud | Sz: Huge | Int: animal. 13:03:48 %??kraken 13:04:02 !apt merfolk 13:04:03 Mf: Fighting: 1, Short: 2, Long: 1, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: 4!, Staves: -2, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: 0, Armour: -3*, Dodge: 3, Stealth: 2, Stab: 2, Shields: 0, Traps: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: -2, Hexes: 0, Charms: 1, Summ: 0, Nec: -2, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3!, Fire: -3*, Ice: 1, Air: -2, Earth: -2, Poison: 1, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: 0, HP: 0, MP: 0 13:04:32 is there a flag for a monster being an actual caster? 13:04:48 like something that works with trog piety maybe? 13:04:56 hmm 13:05:19 could just check for that and not print spells from things like kraken 13:05:28 LexAckson actual_spells 13:05:34 cool 13:05:43 @?? orc_priest 13:05:43 orc priest (03o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(16) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 42 | Sp: pain (d8), cantrip, smiting (7-17), heal other | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 13:06:00 @?? elf warrior 13:06:01 unknown monster: "elf warrior" 13:06:07 @?? elf knight 13:06:07 unknown monster: "elf knight" 13:06:15 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:16 @??deep elf knight 13:06:16 deep elf knight (10e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 38-60 | AC/EV: 0/15 | Dam: 14 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(88) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 796 | Sp: magic dart (3d5), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d8), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d5) / throw frost (3d8), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d8), magic dart (3d5), invisibility | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 13:06:46 !bugrep Rings of Teleport Control do not unlock training for Evocations (and they should). 13:07:13 DrPraetor: report it on mantis 13:07:15 i do think it makes sense to also list non-spell spells 13:07:33 but of course make it clear that they're not actually spells 13:07:41 well, sometimes those things are in the text description 13:08:14 special abilities are, certainly; but not usually everything in the monster's spellbook 13:08:17 e.g. orc priests 13:08:20 they are non-spell spells 13:08:21 yeah 13:08:47 there would need to be a lot of special cases 13:11:00 03MarvinPA 07* 0.13-a0-1452-g37b3cbb: Don't give Ash piety for picking up runes 10(20 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=37b3cbbf3e42 13:11:00 03MarvinPA 07* 0.13-a0-1453-g47a6cdf: Fix power 1 warp card being unaffected by -cTele 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=47a6cdf9bfa3 13:11:23 special abilities need to die 13:11:31 -!- reaver has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:11:51 i think it might be simpler to just put actual spells in for now 13:12:13 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:41 yeah, people can understand that draconian can breathe 13:12:52 and there are probably monsters with actual spells and special-ability-spells 13:12:58 so still some special cases 13:13:30 like mara 13:19:30 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:52 -!- sym has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:25:10 -!- rchandra1 is now known as rchandra 13:28:15 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:30:17 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:14 Can't Exit Hell by Arrhythmia 13:31:39 A lot of people seem to be getting trapped places these days... 13:32:16 <|amethyst> 31035 | Abyss:3 | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-1420-g28137fc to 0.13-a0-1450-gc203111 13:32:24 <|amethyst> 31833 | Hell | Entered the Vestibule of Hell 13:32:47 03qoala 07* 0.13-a0-1454-g7c36b1c: Don't crash when firing lamp of fire near the map boundary. 10(10 hours ago, 1 file, 6+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7c36b1c3b156 13:32:56 <|amethyst> 33264 | Dis:3 | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-1450-gc203111 to 0.13-a0-1451-g93fb1ab 13:33:14 <|amethyst> so it was broken by grunt's first commit and unbroken by his second one 13:33:47 So these are just people in the middle? 13:33:55 <|amethyst> yeah 13:34:03 An evil sort of bug, just the same 13:37:10 <|amethyst> yeah, and needs manual savefile editing to fix it 13:37:15 <|amethyst> well, not "manual" 13:37:54 ...this is beginning to reach epic bug territory, and it's entirely my fault >:( 13:38:24 eh, people have been trapped in branches before 13:38:29 Have they? 13:38:32 yes 13:38:37 How'd it happen before? 13:38:39 I forget the exact circumstances 13:38:43 Fair enough 13:38:56 As in, even before the first round of stair changes I made recently? 13:38:56 something else with hells I think 13:38:59 yes 13:39:05 I mean like a year ago or something 13:39:07 -!- ktgrey has quit [] 13:40:01 <|amethyst> To fix a save: cp foo.cs foo-wiz.cs; play with foo-wiz, enter wizmode, create the feature; crawl -edit-save foo-wiz.cs get Temple foo-temple.chunk; crawl -edit-save foo.cs put Temple foo-temple.chunk 13:40:14 <|amethyst> where "Temple" is the ID of the broken floor 13:40:47 <|amethyst> btw, the docs for put and get seem to be backwards 13:41:03 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:10 DracoOmega: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5821 13:41:25 Oh, I remember that one. 13:41:28 Haha 13:41:53 Well, it IS kind of thematic that Hell wouldn't let you leave :P 13:43:39 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 13:43:54 -!- johnny0__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:44:08 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:44:30 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:51:00 -!- Napkin_ is now known as Napkin 13:51:26 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1455-gf96da2a: Improve -edit-save help. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f96da2a85329 13:52:04 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: "Abandon all hope, ye who generate this level" 13:52:11 Hahaha 13:52:48 -!- Guest81510 is now known as magicpoints 13:58:45 ok i have this fairly ludicrous item pretty much implemented 13:59:17 it's the gong i was discussing earlier 13:59:51 -!- mumra_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:11 you'll have to let me know opinions 14:00:16 What does it do? 14:00:23 basically it could just be overpowered with no hope of fixing :) 14:00:33 ...the gong of Golubria? 14:00:43 <|amethyst> Gong of the Shield 14:00:45 -!- Sudo has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00:45 everything in los is frozen in time for a small number of turns 14:00:55 Including you! 14:00:56 >.> 14:00:56 but it makes a huge amount of noise at the end 14:01:03 not including you luckily :) 14:01:04 I hope this is on the shield of the gong 14:01:14 at the moment it's a separate misc item 14:01:16 GONNNNG! 14:01:18 <|amethyst> mumra: does that count as stabbable? 14:01:18 Drawbacks? Recharge? 14:01:21 sorry to hear you are wrong 14:01:39 |amethyst: you can't hurt anything while its frozen 14:01:51 <|amethyst> oh, good 14:01:54 <|amethyst> what about placing clouds? 14:02:11 yeah you could place clouds but they won't hurt them until they unfreeze 14:02:18 DracoOmega: it's an XP recharge item 14:02:48 so it is extremely powerful at high evo, you could heal 3 times or cast 3 buffs 14:03:02 or escape completely 14:03:08 i was thinking of applying Stasis for the duration 14:03:15 so you couldn't abuse it with tele/blink 14:03:46 <|amethyst> what happens if you summon a monster during the duration? 14:04:42 |amethyst: new summons can move but shouldn't be able to attack anything 14:04:47 existing summons would have been frozen 14:04:55 I sort of like the concept, I think (though on the other hand, it does cross over Chei's domain somewhat), but I wonder if it can't have a more interesting drawback than 'really noisty' 14:04:57 (but this doesn't count as a "bad" action since it doesn't harm them) 14:05:12 Since 'really noisy' seems to matter less if you're already in a crisis, which is when this is liable to get used most, I think 14:05:34 well, if you used this in the orb chamber it would wake up *everything* in both lungs 14:05:45 it's really REALLY noisy 14:05:58 but yeah maybe something else could happen 14:06:06 which is why i thought stasis 14:06:18 (maybe a stasis aura that lasts beyond the freeze effect) 14:06:36 I do think -TELE during it is a good idea at least, since otherwise it seems to be basically a gaurenteed ?tele out of almost anything 14:07:07 I am not sure preventing haste (or more topically, forcibly REMOVING haste) is so great, though 14:07:29 <|amethyst> you can't hurt monsters... can you push them? 14:07:36 <|amethyst> and can you modify terrain? 14:07:50 I think it is probably best to avoid preventing any more things than necessary 14:07:58 terrain is unaffected 14:07:58 Since it's awkward to have the player remember a list of what they can and can't do 14:08:04 well um 14:08:12 it applies an ENCH to monsters and that's it right now 14:08:12 sword of cerebov truly could use a buff 14:08:35 and monsters out of LOS can still act of course if they're already hunting you 14:08:39 <|amethyst> the ench meaning "can't move, is invulnerable"? 14:08:48 Like 'no harming monsters' is simple enough, but the more clauses we add, the more unwieldy this will get, I think 14:08:58 yes 14:09:02 and complicated code-wise 14:09:05 A +6 great sword of flamewar is kind very bad at the point where you can kill Cerebov. 14:09:11 it's already non-trivial disabling monsters this much :) 14:09:18 Unless you had atrocious luck with weapons. 14:09:34 DracoOmega: pushing monsters probably wouldn't be useful, you don't have enough turns to do anything with it 14:09:47 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 14:10:03 Probably not, and that at least seems to reasonably fit under the 'no affecting monsters' clause 14:10:18 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:10:24 <|amethyst> pacification? banishment? other hexes? 14:10:29 the idea is they're frozen in time/space so nothing can affect them or even touch them 14:10:37 bolts can't affect them 14:10:41 <|amethyst> ohhh 14:10:46 there are probably bugs and edge cases 14:10:47 <|amethyst> so not just "no damage" 14:10:52 but i think i disabled almost everything 14:10:53 Does tornado still affect them? :P 14:10:55 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:57 haha 14:11:01 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:11:07 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:09 depends whether it uses beams :) 14:11:16 I don't think it does. At least not for moving stuff. 14:11:38 (I am not sure the damage uses it either) 14:11:45 But that might be prevented elsewhere 14:11:49 <|amethyst> mumra: maybe the beam stuff plus completely immobile (like plants are: tornado doesn't work) and immune to damage (in case someone finds a non-beam way to do damage) 14:11:53 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:12:23 <|amethyst> oh, I guess you have the latter anyway because melee and clouds 14:13:06 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:33 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:47 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 14:16:48 -!- yuastnav_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:18:00 -!- Mu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:18:01 i'm pushing it to this branch if anyone wants to look 14:18:19 there are definitely some cases i haven't fixed yet 14:18:25 constriction, and a couple of other things 14:19:45 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:49 now i'm testing a weird pen-and-paper game a friend has been designing :) 14:20:15 -!- Zermako has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:20:24 -!- Zermak is now known as Zermako 14:20:56 -!- Seppucrow has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:20:56 -!- minqmay has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:21:14 -!- Nikolaos has quit [] 14:21:43 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:21:54 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1454-g4960a82: Merge branch 'master' of gitorious.org:crawl/crawl into evoker-playstyle 10(26 hours ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4960a8212649 14:21:54 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1455-g983a09b: Add a gadget shop for miscellany/evokables 10(5 hours ago, 6 files, 10+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=983a09b06610 14:21:54 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1456-ge3742d0: Increase shop value for elemental evokables 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e3742d08f0e6 14:21:54 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1457-g5d85ad5: Increase shop value for Box of Beasts 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5d85ad5a3e19 14:21:54 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1458-gdae58d2: Correct an inaccurate comment 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dae58d2395b0 14:21:54 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1459-g3f81de7: A new item, Gong of Golubria 10(4 minutes ago, 25 files, 140+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3f81de711fec 14:22:45 Incidentally, I am confused at the golubria name 14:22:55 Since all of those have to do with bending space 14:23:01 well, because it's a tloc item 14:23:13 Freezing things in time doesn't feel very tloc to me, I guess 14:23:16 everything is frozen in time and space 14:23:34 The space bit seems almost incidental to the time bit, I guess? 14:23:54 i tend to think of tloc as time and space manipulation 14:24:38 well; name can easily be changed anyway 14:25:58 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26:23 -!- IsaacSin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:29:10 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Killed (card.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 14:29:59 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:13 -!- remyroy1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:30:15 -!- ystael_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:30:17 -!- ivan`` has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:31:53 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:36 -!- 45PAAKH99 has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:36 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:37 -!- ivan``_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:37 -!- Seppukrow has quit [Ping timeout: 280 seconds] 14:32:38 -!- ivan``_ has quit [Changing host] 14:32:38 -!- ivan``_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:33:03 fr temporal distortion as a translocations spell 14:33:33 -!- Zephyr is now known as Psyknux 14:34:06 -!- Mu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 14:34:38 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:36:01 -!- yuastnav has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:36:40 -!- anichowy1 has quit [Ping timeout: 274 seconds] 14:37:08 -!- reaver has quit [] 14:38:26 it could just send everything into the future 14:38:33 someone else suggested that at some point 14:40:10 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 14:40:14 That does also sound fun, though I wonder if it would just be a more complicated version of essentially the same thing 14:40:24 Level 9 translocations could literally be time manipulation. 14:40:40 s 14:40:55 That's Chei's domain. 14:41:08 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:48 -!- eith|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:48:47 evoker playstyle? 14:49:17 -!- geekosaur has quit [Excess Flood] 14:51:48 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:52 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:42 -!- Seppu is now known as Seppucrow 14:55:48 ok that gong is awesome 14:55:59 -!- sbanwart has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:59:36 -!- kwel01 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:59:44 -!- yalue has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:02:25 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:02:30 -!- magistern has quit [*.net *.split] 15:02:31 -!- Seppucrow has quit [*.net *.split] 15:02:31 -!- mikee_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:02:45 potentially game breaking is the worry :) 15:03:18 3 turns is not exactly going to break the game 15:03:25 especially when you can't hurt anything 15:03:32 no 15:03:38 hopefully it's about right 15:03:41 -!- Mingan has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:03:46 enough to be incredibly useful 15:05:16 maybe i was being paranoid and there could be slightly more turns at very high evo 15:07:01 -!- dienosore has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:07:34 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:07:58 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:08:00 there are definitely some circumstances where the 3 turns could be a little too good at doing certain things 15:08:28 <|amethyst> re -TELE... what about things like Passage of Golubria? 15:08:57 given how it's generally treated this would have to not block it 15:09:04 SwissStopwatch: I am wondering how many of those situations are just in zigs, though :P 15:09:36 and since it takes at keast 3 turns to use passage of golubria anyway, this would end up like a cblink basically 15:09:43 I suppose the main situations might be where you want to borg or something, but don't have the mp, and don't want to afford a turn to quaff for mp or something 15:09:51 I mean if it straight up doesn't work on cTele 15:09:56 And this would like you do that safely 15:10:08 then that wipes half those situations anyway 15:10:20 but I forget if that was part of the deal 15:10:46 Well, it gives -TELE, I think 15:10:50 For the duration 15:10:59 it doesn't yet 15:11:18 but i'm strongly considering it 15:11:19 -Tele doesn't block apportation though, right 15:11:34 no 15:12:12 free turns to steal dangerous runes and the orb is obviously super good there, I guess 15:12:19 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:12:33 since tele is part of the plan for that sort of thing but not the only required action 15:13:06 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:06 I guess if -tele cancels teleport timers then that makes it somewhat worse though 15:13:15 <|amethyst> mumra: can monsters change their attitude/behaviour while frozen in time? 15:13:40 they can but i consider this a bug 15:13:45 <|amethyst> mumra: well 15:13:55 <|amethyst> mumra: My thought was orb pickup noise 15:14:08 hmm 15:14:14 <|amethyst> I guess it makes its own noise but still 15:14:38 either orb could specifically end the effect 15:14:44 or make the item not work on -ctele levels 15:15:13 |amethyst: Well, wasn't it going to make a ton of noise when it ended, anyway? 15:15:28 So it wouldn't matter if they 'missed' something loud in the meantime 15:16:09 <|amethyst> well, orb noise goes through silence 15:16:10 yeah it'll wake up at least as much as the orb 15:16:23 hmm, silence is probably an issue 15:16:28 <|amethyst> so you use this, then cast silence, then pick up the orb 15:16:43 <|amethyst> (presumably you can't use it in the first place if you're already silenced) 15:16:56 no 15:17:34 <|amethyst> could make the noise first 15:18:14 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:31 that would work but it's more fun thematically if the noise happens right at the end 15:19:40 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:07 -!- tureba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:27:15 maybe it just cancels any silence 15:33:40 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 15:33:41 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:58 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:39:54 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:15 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:53 -!- lion_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:44:17 -!- ren-cs has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:44 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:45:00 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:46:18 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 15:47:25 reaper (152) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 56-96 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Dam: 45 | 05demonic, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1553 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 15:47:25 <|amethyst> %??reaper 15:47:26 <|amethyst> doh 15:50:38 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:45 -!- SaintWacko_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:53:53 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 16:02:21 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:10 -!- Kromgart has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:06 -!- theofias_ is now known as Pedjt 16:04:25 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14:44 In a version number like "0.12.1-43-gbc5e171" what does the 43 indicate? 16:16:18 seems to be a serial commit number? 16:16:48 Serial commit number? 16:18:09 -!- maarek has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:33 <|amethyst> it means that version has 43 commits since the 0.12.1 tag 16:19:07 Aha, thanks, |amethyst :) 16:19:12 <|amethyst> (so it's not necessarily unique when branches are involved) 16:19:13 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 16:19:18 <|amethyst> (and some numbers are skipped) 16:19:28 <|amethyst> s/branches/merges/ 16:20:01 So the games on the servers aren't necessarily deployed from tags (as it were)? 16:20:18 <|amethyst> right, even stable gets daily patches, at least on CSZO and CAO 16:20:27 <|amethyst> well, not necessarily daily 16:20:31 Interesting, thanks :) 16:20:33 <|amethyst> but the server checks and upgrades daily 16:21:33 That's pretty neat. 16:22:18 <|amethyst> and the part after the "-g" is (a prefix of) the commit hash, so we can look up that exact version 16:22:22 <|amethyst> %git bc5e171 16:22:23 07Grunt * 0.12.1-43-gbc5e171: Fix a possible crash when acquirement fails. 10(2 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bc5e171f4a6c 16:22:50 <|amethyst> actually, %git takes a full version string too: 16:22:51 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:54 <|amethyst> %git 0.12.1-43-gbc5e171 16:22:54 07Grunt * 0.12.1-43-gbc5e171: Fix a possible crash when acquirement fails. 10(2 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bc5e171f4a6c 16:23:08 That much I had figured :) 16:23:17 -!- syncopath has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:27 * broquaint has drunk deep of the git koolaid 16:23:56 -!- eith|2 is now known as eith 16:24:00 <|amethyst> see man git-describe for more information, in case I missed something 16:24:57 * Grunt kicks |amethyst. 16:25:07 <|amethyst> huh? 16:25:13 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:25:23 <|amethyst> oh 16:25:24 %git :/Zannic 16:25:26 07|amethyst * 0.13-a0-1445-g95d0da8: Fix Volcano announcement for Lava Orcs and Djinn. 10(16 hours ago, 2 files, 10+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=95d0da83f762 16:25:28 I'm trying to concentrate on not dying; don't randomly ping me :b 16:25:38 hurry up and not die 16:25:46 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:25:53 <|amethyst> G r u n t: oops, sorry 16:25:59 -!- Zephryn is now known as Psyknux 16:26:11 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:23 !messages 16:26:24 (1/4) mumra said (4w 4d 5h 18m 10s ago): You mentioned it was awkward reading the backlog ... I'm wondering is this due to the interface/layout of the logs page. I wanted to revamp it a little at some point (partially to make it easier to read on my phone) so give me any feedback you have on how it could be improved for you. 16:26:26 I guess "<|amethyst> doh" doesn't work here :b 16:26:27 <|amethyst> I just cover up my IRC client with my crawl terminal when that's a problem :) 16:27:28 <|amethyst> mumra: don't feel under any obligation to use the existing code for the logs page, since it's pretty bad in places 16:27:29 mumra: nothing to do with the logs page, rather with the logs themselves (for me). No coloring + wall of text = hard to follow :) 16:27:37 !messages 16:27:37 (1/3) tenofswords said (4w 2d 22h 52m 2s ago): no no no it is solely "ten of swords" that is the point of the tarot reference 16:27:48 !messages 16:27:49 (1/2) kilobyte said (4w 9h 19m 40s ago): you can bump to make -j9 on dis, it has been migrated to a box ~3.5 times faster than the old piece of crap 16:28:07 !messages 16:28:08 (1/1) |amethyst said (3w 1d 21m 42s ago): I added you to the team if you're interested 16:28:16 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC] 16:28:27 |amethyst: I was interested, but I completely flaked. Sorry :/ 16:28:41 Stubbornly kept killing OpDKs :) 16:29:02 * dpeg is message-free. Hah! 16:29:28 <|amethyst> dpeg: eh, you got us 246 points, that's good enough for me :) 16:29:50 |amethyst: did someone perform even worse? If so, who is the darn slacker? 16:30:32 <|amethyst> dpeg: you did better than bh and Samb 16:30:41 whippersnappers! 16:31:15 <|amethyst> mumra gets kicked off the bad-dev team next year 16:31:19 <|amethyst> he's too good :P 16:31:20 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:31:51 What an annoying striver! We don't want such careerists anyway!! 16:32:41 <|amethyst> dpeg: re the IRC logs, how much colourisation would it take to make them usable for you? 16:32:41 Tournament was a huge success... ran smoothly as ever. Also notable increase in players etc. again (stalled last time). I still wonder if I can make my clan-streak idea work. 16:33:19 |amethyst: good call. The annoying "Foo came", "Bar left" message should be suppressed with color or maybe could be ignored completely? 16:34:17 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:24 clan-streak would sound like it has the disadvantage of forcing every player to not focus on what they'd like to be doing if they want those points 16:35:30 which maybe is what your plan is there? 16:36:47 yes, it is not so obvious how to get it work in a non-intrusive way (don't want to make players wait etc.) 16:38:04 do mummies get stats back after fighting wretche stars? 16:38:12 wreched 16:38:26 agh 16:38:29 wretched 16:38:30 :) 16:38:32 lol 16:38:52 No, unfortunately 16:38:59 man 16:38:59 Since stat damage is seperate than mutations 16:39:02 rough 16:39:04 attempting streaks on an individual basis definitely is a pretty severe change compared to "normal" play already 16:39:05 -!- reaver has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:39:08 Well, I made it so that it wouldn't rot them, at least! 16:39:15 Which is what the mutations would have ordinarily done 16:39:17 Tentative idea 1, assuming there is only one server: a clan streak is a set of wins by clan members where every win is that player's first game started after any clan member's win. Can anyone parse that? :) 16:39:24 But possibly they should do a little less stat damage anyway? 16:39:38 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:45 Basically, if one clan member wins, then every clan member has one chance to extend the streak (with the next game they fire up). 16:40:02 so as long as one of them wins it keeps going? 16:40:13 yes, that's the point of clan streaks, I thought 16:40:26 And if you're the last one to go, then you carry all the pressure :) 16:40:48 I guess if multiple of them win then those also all count 16:40:52 yes yes 16:40:53 so what happens when A wins a game, then B and C both start games and win them, then D and E both start games and win them? 16:41:02 Zannick: all part of the streak 16:41:10 is that a clan streak of 5 huh. 16:41:13 Idea 1 would actually work easily with any number of servers 16:41:14 a streak tree 16:41:20 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:20 Zannick: sure: five games won in succession 16:41:24 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:32 yeah the tournament rules do already account for the multi-server streak problem 16:41:40 and all the while A is losing repeatedly 16:41:43 I just want to create some clan interaction 16:41:55 it's interesting 16:42:06 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:24 Zannick: but that's exactly alright: we certainly want that a team can afford a bad player and still streak even if that guy keeps not-winning all the time 16:43:08 maybe one question is what happens when somebody stops playing for a week or something while their streak chance is the only one active/available 16:43:17 but meanwhile the other people all keep playing 16:43:44 if they start another streak but then the absent player comes back and wins, how does that end up working 16:43:50 SwissStopwatch: the rules cover it. That guy is the last one to potentially clan-streak, and the clan is worse off from the break. 16:43:53 <|amethyst> dpeg: okay, now in the viewer joins parts and other status messages should be greyed out 16:44:00 |amethyst: cool, you rock 16:44:28 hmm, does that end up punishing clans with an absent player but not clans with a player who keeps losing? 16:44:33 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 16:44:45 and also not clans with no member in the slot maybe 16:44:54 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:54 SwissStopwatch: I don't see how? Any clan is better off with all slots filled with active players. 16:44:57 but does the absent player's final win affect two separate streaks? 16:45:03 well in general yes 16:45:09 ah yeah that's kind of what I was trying to ask 16:45:26 I mean 16:45:55 especially it gets confusing if there's no game started or in progress from that player in the interim 16:46:00 Zannick: can you give an example with A, B, C? I am extremely exerted atm. Need more context :) 16:46:12 maybe this almost demands a diagram 16:46:38 okay, A wins, B wins, C wins. they all lose. A wins, B wins. Then D plays his first game of the tourney and wins 16:46:43 On the clan page, it could show: "Current streak length 4 (wins by A, B, A, C). Players to potentially extend the current streak: C." 16:47:00 Zannick: four streak, anyone can extend 16:47:33 how about A wins, B wins, C wins, they all lose, then A wins, B wins, A wins again, C wins, -then- D plays the first game and extends 16:47:35 I think this is much simpler than what I suggested to elliptic before, so I'll spare you my idea 2. 16:47:50 okay, so we're only counting the depth of the streak graph, rather than the size of it 16:47:57 SwissStopwatch: ah, you are confused by the possibility of mutual streaks going on. Yes, that is possible. 16:48:22 it's not necessarily going to be a tree but a Directed Acyclic Graph 16:48:46 SwissStopwatch: in your setup, there is an old 4-streak from ABCD, and a new 5-streak from ABACD. 16:48:59 Zannick: mathematician or computer scientist? 16:49:05 (just curious) 16:49:06 dpeg: both :D 16:49:11 <3 16:49:22 Possibly the 5-streak ends up trumping in that case 16:49:31 SwissStopwatch: yes, I would suggest that too 16:49:56 Zannick: some mathematicians (e.g. representation theorists) use to call "directed graphs" by "quivers". You too? 16:50:10 the 5-streak would trump for max length, but if there are other bonuses for streak games it would only count once as a streak game 16:50:20 dpeg: nope. never heard that one before 16:50:23 only DAGs 16:50:35 I know that the tournament doesn't really care about max streak length for individuals except for the top 3 16:50:53 clan streaks being the same way could be weird I guess 16:50:59 !rng steel_jav ret_jav 16:51:00 The RNG chooses: steel_jav. 16:51:03 I'm cleaning up makeitem.cc and I have a question on the first random_choose_weighted() function. I understand 10 is the default weight, but how important is it to stick to that? If the only way to preserve the original chances is weird weights like 12,9,6, Should I do it? 16:51:27 like it might potentially be a dominant clan strategy (for people who want to specifically win clan points, for whatever reason) to the exclusion of other stuff 16:51:30 SwissStopwatch: I think it could be fun if the clan debates about streaking potential, e.g. if you want to avoid double species etc. 16:51:51 mm yes, I guess species/background would still matter here 16:51:52 SwissStopwatch: well, our choice how many points we hand out for that 16:52:36 I guess at least it does get into team role and formation somewhat though 16:52:54 -!- tJener has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:20 since it might then matter how many careful players you have as opposed to aggressive speedy players (which starts to sound interesting) 16:54:09 SwissStopwatch: not so bad, imo 16:54:16 would you let players extend streaks later on after failing to extend them earlier? I'm a little confused by what the actual rule is here 16:54:19 whereas the current clan scoring doesn't seem to care about relative member playstyles all that much 16:54:41 just as long as people play different things and somebody does a zig at some point and etc 16:54:55 -!- zizzyx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:55 -!- eb has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:56 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:56 -!- tJener has quit [Changing host] 16:54:56 like, if player A wins and then player B fails to win a streak game, but then player C succeeds in winning a streak game, can player B then continue the streak? 16:55:05 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:55:13 -!- Wahaha is now known as Wahaha_ 16:55:19 elliptic: yes 16:55:32 after C wins, anyone can extend the streak 16:55:39 including C? 16:55:41 yes 16:55:45 I guess one thing to note is that a clan streak will always be at least as long as any individual player's streak 16:55:55 in particular, streaking is much easier for a clan than for a single player, as you have essentially six chances to go for it 16:56:00 SwissStopwatch: of course 16:56:08 I would expect that some clans would never finish their first streak then 16:56:17 a lot of clans wouldn't 16:56:19 but with this rule, also not-top-clans have a chance for a modest streak 16:56:30 since it is basically like a regular streak except that you have 6 retries 16:56:32 well, a few top clans at any rate 16:56:43 elliptic: yes, not a problem -- I am more interested in making things interesting for clans that don't compete for top position 16:56:53 sure 16:57:02 -!- inpho has quit [Quit: inpho] 16:57:08 so the top clans will all get their share of clan streak bonus points -- no difference among them 16:57:12 it seems complicated to keep track of though if it is affecting score 16:57:17 -!- C7ty1 has quit [Quit: Copywight 2007 Elmer Fudd. All wights wesewved.] 16:57:42 because you really need to keep track of the full graph 16:57:56 and I'd expect this graph to be quite a mess for the top teams 16:58:18 It would be just a list of current streak. One line for each streak, at the end with a list of which players can still extend it. Not so bad to show. 16:58:38 and perhaps highlighting the currently most valuable streak 16:58:53 dpeg: well, it depends on whether you want players to choose distinct combos 16:58:55 there can be many streaks 16:59:10 "And now, everyone gets a steak." 16:59:13 6 players all win a game, then 6 players again all win a game 16:59:15 if you don't care about combos, then only the longest streak with each end point matters 16:59:25 and that might be feasible 16:59:28 that's 36 2-streaks in a clan 16:59:47 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 16:59:59 Zannick: if all win, and then win again, it'd be a 12-streak? 17:00:05 dpeg: no 17:00:11 nope. a 4-streak 17:00:14 dpeg: because most of the games would be concurrent 17:00:19 dpeg: probably 17:00:29 max depth of the graph 17:00:40 dpeg: since each game has to be finished before the next one starts, no? 17:01:01 Ah, I see what you mean. No no. Let me explain better. I *don't* want clan streak to encourage players to hold off their games, not at all. 17:01:05 but there'd be 6^4 of them. 17:01:12 they should be playing as usual 17:01:17 dpeg: well I don't understand the rules then 17:01:22 forcing each game to finish before the next streak try does introduce -weird- timing issues 17:01:32 SwissStopwatch: well what are the rules otherwise 17:01:33 on the clan level, anyway 17:01:51 -!- absolutello is now known as absolutego 17:01:54 SwissStopwatch: if you just care about ending times, then that encourages holding off winning a game 17:02:03 which is even worse 17:02:14 actually now that you say it I guess that introduces weird timing issues either way maybe 17:02:23 but somebody started the first game, and all the others got their wins with later starting games, so they all count 17:02:55 dpeg: but if you use start times, then you might lose your chance to streak before the first player wins... 17:03:01 but if there's a clan streak ongoing, and they all start a game after the last win, when A wins at that point, all the other games are useless toward the streak now since they won't add depth to the graph (unless no one manages to streak off A's win) 17:03:03 I just don't understand what the proposal is 17:04:34 let me try 17:04:38 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:57 -!- TheKraken has quit [Quit: TheKraken] 17:06:17 Before going for a formal definition, here are the goals: If someone in your clan wins, then you can extend the clan streak by winning your current game. You can also extend the clan streak by winning the first game after this one (should you lose). 17:07:05 I think that's pretty non-intrusive for actual play. 17:07:17 dpeg: no, I am already worried 17:07:24 Still broken? 17:08:00 dpeg: because if you are about to win, you should wait for it to count as a streak 17:08:21 if you aren't confident about a different player being able to streak on top of your win 17:08:26 I don't follow (but I am really tired) 17:08:28 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:29 dpeg: think about it this way 17:08:33 ah 17:08:58 (please explain anyway) 17:08:58 dpeg: if you have six players who each expects to win exactly one game over the course of the tourney 17:09:14 dpeg: then they should all stop when they get to D:1 with the orb 17:09:40 dpeg: and then win in quick succession for the guaranteed 6-streak 17:09:44 so they can collect their 6-streak 17:10:06 this is why I don't see a good way of letting the current game count 17:10:07 okay, no clan streaks then :) Thanks for discussing... seems like it won't fly. 17:10:12 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:14 well, there might be some way of doing it 17:10:52 You already ruled out "first game started after a clan member's win"? 17:10:55 the most natural thing, I think, is to have it be the first game you _start_ after another player wins that has a chance of streaking 17:11:15 ah, so not ruled out yet :) 17:11:34 "another player" really means not you? 17:11:43 no, including you 17:11:45 ok 17:11:54 this is how I originally assumed it would work 17:12:14 yes, I see... wanted to be more forgiving but it's not worth the extra difficulty 17:12:15 if we just care about the number of games in the streak and not having different races/classes, I think this is pretty reasonable 17:12:46 since we already encourage distinct races/classes with the race/class win points, this seems okay to me 17:12:55 You are the tournament master (thanks again!), if you see a way to make it happen, I'd be delighted 17:13:01 the only timing issue there is maybe that it encourages people to hold off on starting games in some circumstances, but that's mitigated by extra servers existing (although, then there's some tension with individual streaks) 17:13:25 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:13:57 SwissStopwatch: well, players aren't penalized for starting a game that won't count towards the streak at least 17:14:06 SwissStopwatch: there is also the issue that a good player could play a clan completely by himself... we have no way of checking against that, and have to make sure that clans are never important enough for such silly behaviour 17:14:18 they'll still get a chance to extend the streak on the next game 17:14:23 (this point is not just about streaks) 17:14:42 dpeg: more of a problem is multiple players playing on the same account 17:14:44 elliptic: yes, this is also fairly easy to grok: "Oh, my next game is (my only) chance to extend our streak. I better be careful!" 17:15:06 elliptic: cannot do anything about it -- they ruin their chances for individual wins, so who cares 17:15:28 clans should be seen as a fun thing 17:16:22 dpeg: right, we can't do anything about it... but if jeanjacques and I decide to play a tourney on the same account, we could basically guarantee that no single player has a chance at individual first place 17:16:31 -!- bonghitz_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:48 hopefully nobody ever decides to do this seriously 17:16:48 elliptic: sure, so the individual competition is also on the honor system 17:16:53 yes :) 17:17:04 elliptic: well, the penalty is maybe the inability to clanstreak as quickly if the streak is relying on you 17:17:15 might just be minor in reality though 17:17:18 I think it's important to make the tournaments (even more) cooler for teams at the bottom and in the middle 17:17:36 SwissStopwatch: well, if the game in question hasn't ended yet, then all the other 5 players will have a chance to clanstreak after it too 17:18:08 They might encourage their slowpoke clan member to hurry up, though 17:18:18 SwissStopwatch: they could all have just started games also, of course 17:18:21 yes 17:18:53 now I see how you arrived at the many 2-streaks above 17:18:58 I guess what I mean is that if you start your game, say, when someone is doing Zot and about to win, then they win, then lose the next one (and everyone else loses the next one) there might be a minor traffic jam of sorts 17:19:15 2-streaks, so painful :( 17:19:17 I'm also unsure how the scoring for this should work, really 17:19:37 maybe some points for each win which is continued in streak by at least one person 17:19:51 and then some points for the longest three clanstreaks 17:19:57 yes, something like this 17:20:40 or just a clan bonus: factor * length of longest clan streak 17:20:50 though if we don't limit race/class, that doesn't work as well, hm 17:20:58 anyway probably something can be worked out 17:21:07 there is some time till the next tournament 17:21:08 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21:27 getting clan points exactly right isn't the most important thing anyway, since the clan competition is just supposed to be fun 17:21:39 and encourage clans to work together etc 17:21:41 I really like the species/background/god marketplace already, and the clan diversification bonus... nifty ruleset! :) 17:21:57 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:22:16 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:22:56 I am starting to want that artificer overhaul to be done so I can play KoAr 17:23:23 elliptic: perhaps award "diversified clan streaks": you get bonus points for how many different triples (species,background,god) occur in the streak? That way, two players winning MiFi will count, if they manage to take Trog vs Okawaru each, for example. 17:24:02 dpeg: god points for stuff like that is a bad idea IMO, since figuring out whether a game counts as a given god is complicated 17:24:10 yes, pity that 17:24:18 just wait until we have random gods :) 17:24:30 random gods? 17:24:33 the rules use a way of doing it, but for players it isn't so simple 17:24:37 Lightli: random gods 17:24:44 Is this instead of or in addition to the current bunch 17:24:49 addition, of course 17:25:00 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:25:03 Are you minmay in disguise? 17:25:04 good, because otherwise you would be removing Xom 17:25:13 no 17:25:33 "just wait until we have random gods" 17:25:35 * Zannick still waiting 17:25:56 Zannick: this is Crawl, could be 0.15 or something. I didn't say "hold your breath". 17:26:16 that's why i'm not holding my breath! 17:26:40 .15 isn't that far away 17:26:47 was saying this only because it may make god scoring for tournaments even weirder 17:30:49 -!- eith|2 is now known as eith 17:32:22 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:34:22 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:59 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:35:58 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:36:45 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:17 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:25 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: night] 17:41:29 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:47 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:47:19 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:38 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:48:35 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:51:05 FR: besides force_more, we should have really_force_more 17:51:56 everything more important than "the rat misses you" has a --more-- these days, resulting in no highlights on actual important stuff 17:53:15 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 17:53:46 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:53:59 -!- iris has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:54:19 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:54:55 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 18:00:00 lots_more 18:01:30 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01:39 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:54 -!- frostsnow has quit [Quit: fail2screen] 18:06:33 -!- jetnerd has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:37 -!- Septim is now known as jetnerd 18:07:45 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:11:36 -!- palyth_ is now known as Palyth 18:14:13 -!- eith|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:16:09 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:18:41 -!- G-Flex has quit [] 18:20:59 -!- BlinkFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:25:15 -!- reaver has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:26:26 -!- mason--- has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:27:47 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 18:28:36 -!- tenofswords has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:34:34 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:35:27 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:59 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 18:39:53 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:35 -!- iris has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:44:40 Doubled Mana cost for Djinni by ACG 18:45:41 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 18:54:15 darkli (L12 DDEE) ERROR: range check error (80 / 80) (D:13) 18:58:32 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:43 -!- johnny0 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:01:11 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:33 -!- jetnerd has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 19:03:10 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:00 -!- TheKraken has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:37 -!- BlinkFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:11:04 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:06 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:14 -!- xnavy has quit [Killed (holmes.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 19:11:14 -!- xnavy_ is now known as xnavy 19:11:37 -!- zizzyx` has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:01 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:17 -!- timeoff has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:12:17 -!- F-Glex has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:12:22 -!- CKyle has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:12:38 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:12:40 -!- ilyak has quit [Quit: nite] 19:13:20 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:41 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:41 -!- Seppucrow has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:41 -!- Perryman has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:23:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:25:08 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 19:25:10 -!- fdel has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:25:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:27 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:27:24 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:49 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:34:35 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:42:15 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 19:42:44 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:45 -!- timeoff has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:04 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 19:45:25 -!- Guest41718 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:50:37 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:53:16 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:42 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:18 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 20:04:22 -!- SamB_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:21 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:20 -!- rkd has quit [] 20:15:30 -!- ragingrage has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:15:42 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:01 -!- fungee has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:17:58 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:11 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:24:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:25:15 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:27:42 hrm. do I need some headers? libunix.cc:24:18: fatal error: term.h: No such file or directory 20:28:03 -!- iris has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:28:05 ncurses-devel or whatever your distribution calls it? 20:28:22 <|amethyst> bh: what OS? 20:28:33 geekosaur: that sounds about right 20:29:02 |amethyst: ubuntu 13 20:29:17 <|amethyst> libncursesw5-dev 20:29:30 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:43 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:13 <|amethyst> (you need the -w- version for unicode support) 20:30:13 good of them to name it so. 20:30:28 you do? ubuntu still has them separate? 20:30:53 everyone else merged the wide and narrow versions of ncurses a couple of years back 20:31:03 <|amethyst> not debian :) 20:31:23 last I checked debian's libncurses.so was a ld script that loads libncursesw.so 20:31:34 INPUT(-lncursesw) 20:32:02 (breaks the hell out of programs not expecting .so-s to contain ld scripts...) 20:32:52 of course the fact thatthey did ncurses -> ncursesw may have led someone to declare the -w version the real one, where other distributions dropped the distinction and just called it ncurses 20:34:52 make debug-lite -j4 315.04s user 40.53s system 326% cpu 1:49.07 total 20:35:04 yay. I can build crawl in a non-horrendous amount of time 20:38:34 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:39:47 -!- SaintWacko_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:42:42 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 20:43:33 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:42 a horrendless amount of time 20:45:38 !abyss Zannick 20:45:39 bh casts a spell. zannick is devoured by a tear in reality! 20:45:45 -!- krag has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:46:42 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:52 * Zannick aa 20:48:00 * Zannick escapes from the Abyss! 20:50:36 shucks 20:57:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:25 -!- SomeoneAwful_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:59:35 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 21:04:05 -!- rphillips has quit [Excess Flood] 21:05:20 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:21 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:11:24 -!- dienosore has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:30 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:15:32 -!- Krakhan has quit [] 21:15:49 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 21:16:06 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 21:19:43 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:23 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:20:39 -!- raskol has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:27:17 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 21:33:46 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:27 Book acquirement with Trog always fails if you have magic skills by Medar 21:43:54 Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1455-gf96da2a 21:44:38 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:48:12 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:50:10 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 22:01:48 -!- pelotr0n is now known as pelotron 22:04:25 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:31 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:11:39 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 22:12:10 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 22:13:58 -!- rapgameantimage has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:16:43 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:23:09 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:27:39 -!- TheKraken has quit [Quit: TheKraken] 22:27:42 -!- raskol_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:29:58 -!- Sudo has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:15 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:34:07 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:42:27 -!- Helmschank has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44:37 -!- t4nk479 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:44:38 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:01 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:06 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:11 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48:25 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 22:48:34 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 22:50:46 -!- Melum has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:51:19 -!- t4nk479 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:52:01 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:40 is the webtiles wire protocol documented? 22:53:11 bh: UTSL? 22:53:25 SamB_: hrm? 22:53:26 * bh googles 22:53:37 ... 22:53:39 that is, I kind of doubt it 22:53:55 "Use the source, luke!" 22:53:58 What crawl really needs is a WebGL webtiles interface 22:54:44 is that actually faster than canvas? 22:55:15 oh, I don't mean 2d :) 22:57:23 that'll involve more art 22:57:44 and vertical surfaces 22:59:58 * Grunt rediscovers some ancient encompass vaults: http://sprunge.us/LUII 23:00:29 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:48 Grunt: why is that a vault? 23:01:05 bh: these are *ancient* vaults. 23:01:12 SamB_: It's certainly doable. Probably not worth spending any time on, though 23:01:21 Not quite as ancient as, say, vault_1, but still pretty old. 23:01:29 (look at the relevant commits) 23:01:38 bh: yes, doable but it sounds like a pain ;-) 23:01:40 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 23:01:50 and I'm imagining it looking quite ugly 23:01:57 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:02:10 and being unplayable. 23:02:21 yeah, probably ;-) 23:07:33 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:14:01 -!- blackcustard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:32 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 23:16:18 -!- zizzyx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:24 03Grunt 07* 0.13-a0-1456-ga275122: Adjust box_level_dp to try to be less broken. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a2751220d937 23:27:43 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:20 -!- DeathrayJack is now known as BlackrayJack 23:36:30 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:38:32 -!- Seppukrow has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:33 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:40:27 -!- SamB_ is now known as SamB 23:42:26 WalkerBoh: do you have any thoughts on improving gargoyles? 23:42:50 hmm, i posted in that thread on the forum earlier today a little 23:43:19 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:43:20 make scroll of fear have a special message for them 23:43:26 i liked the idea of doing a toggle 23:43:30 Zannick: make it so 23:43:46 the barkeep objected to that. I think he has a point 23:43:52 bh: I stand by that camostatue experiment idea! :P 23:44:00 It might just be a doomed ability. 23:44:08 let me read up a little and i'll get back to you 23:44:19 I think it is at least worth trying 23:44:20 oh wait, no one else has said anything 23:44:28 who's the barkeep? 23:44:29 What if petrify came on automatically? If something hit you hard enough 23:44:43 njvmunspeakablename 23:44:51 ah 23:44:58 or maybe it was crate 23:45:14 ie instead of "You assume a fearsome visage." something like "Your fearsome visage horrifies all around you!" 23:45:28 or "you assume a horrific visage" 23:45:30 or something 23:45:38 bh: Do you not like the idea or something? ^^; 23:46:10 DracoOmega: I like it. I'm not going to implement it though 23:46:20 for the most part I think it'll be a no-op 23:46:28 What do you mean? 23:47:01 first of all, i think even if self-petrify was removed, gargoyles are an interesting race and an improvement on SE 23:47:08 that it would have zero gameplay effect 23:47:10 WalkerBoh: agreed 23:47:24 The ability to reliably shake off pursuers would have zero gameplay effect? 23:47:35 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:47:37 DracoOmega: reliably? 23:47:38 SamB: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 23:47:39 Or semi-reliably 23:47:42 !messages 23:47:43 (1/1) mumra said (18h 54m 46s ago): I think you changed the shop inventory layout right? It's really weird on tiles with a high resolution now the prices are fully right-aligned, I thought the prices were completely missing at first 23:48:46 !tell mumra *I* didn't want to make shops so wide; they made me do it -> 23:48:46 SamB: OK, I'll let mumra know. 23:49:20 bh: do you think self-petrify as it currently stands is an uninteresting concept, or just underpowered? 23:49:21 !tell mumra *points at others at random, possibly kilobyte* 23:49:22 SamB: OK, I'll let mumra know. 23:49:28 WalkerBoh: uninteresting 23:49:55 do we have a melee glass cannon race? Good combat apts, low HP gain? 23:49:57 !apt sp 23:49:58 Sp: Fighting: -2*, Short: 1, Long: -2, Axes: -2, Maces: -3*, Polearms: -3*, Staves: -3*, Slings: 2, Bows: 2, Xbows: 0, Throw: 1, Armour: -3*, Dodge: 4!, Stealth: 5!, Stab: 4!, Shields: -3*, Traps: 3!, UC: -2*, Splcast: 2, Conj: -3*, Hexes: 2, Charms: 4!, Summ: -2, Nec: -1, Tloc: 4!, Tmut: 3!, Fire: -2, Ice: -2, Air: -1, Earth: -1, Poison: 0, Inv: 0, Evo: 4!, Exp: -1, HP: -3, MP: 3! 23:50:00 !apt ko 23:50:01 Ko: Fighting: 1, Short: 3!, Long: -2, Axes: -1, Maces: 0, Polearms: -2, Staves: -1, Slings: 2, Bows: -1, Xbows: 2!, Throw: 3!, Armour: -2, Dodge: 2, Stealth: 4, Stab: 2, Shields: -2, Traps: 0, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: -1, Hexes: 0, Charms: -2, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: -1, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 3, Exp: 1!, HP: -2, MP: 0 23:50:03 !apt ha 23:50:04 tengu 23:50:04 Ha: Fighting: -1, Short: 3!, Long: 0, Axes: -1, Maces: -2, Polearms: -3*, Staves: -2, Slings: 4!, Bows: 2, Xbows: -1, Throw: 3!, Armour: -2, Dodge: 2, Stealth: 4, Stab: 0, Shields: 1, Traps: 0, UC: -2*, Splcast: -3, Conj: -2, Hexes: -1, Charms: 1, Summ: -1, Nec: -2, Tloc: 1, Tmut: -4*, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 1, Earth: 0, Poison: -1, Inv: 1, Evo: 2, Exp: 1!, HP: -1, MP: 0 23:50:08 !apt te 23:50:09 Te: Fighting: 0, Short: 1, Long: 1, Axes: 1, Maces: 1, Polearms: 1, Staves: 1, Slings: 0, Bows: 1, Xbows: 1, Throw: 1, Armour: 1, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 1, Stab: 1, Shields: 0, Traps: 0, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: 3!, Hexes: -3, Charms: -2, Summ: 2!, Nec: 1, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -2, Fire: 1, Ice: -1, Air: 3!, Earth: -3*, Poison: 0, Inv: -1*, Evo: 1, Exp: 0, HP: -2, MP: 1 23:50:10 bh: In any case, I would be willing to take a stab at implementing it myself, if you didn't object to the concept 23:50:12 !tell mumra I just wanted to make them use 80 but then someone told me that kilobyte had a phone that did 79x24 and to just adapt to the width ... 23:50:13 SamB: OK, I'll let mumra know. 23:50:38 to be honest bh, i wouldn't mess around with apts/stats too much on gargoyles 23:50:42 DracoOmega: It probably isn't worth your time for now. The ability might get dumped 23:50:44 it fills a good niche as it is 23:50:47 WalkerBoh: oh, I'm not going to touch them 23:50:47 !tell mumra you're more then welcome to change it 23:50:48 SamB: OK, I'll let mumra know. 23:50:51 ah okay =) 23:50:57 bh: Well, it's basically a wholely different ability, only united in theme 23:51:07 sgtm 23:51:38 i'll stand by my comment that an offensive boost -> defensive liability power is more interesting gameplay-wise than self-petrify's current for 23:51:46 form* 23:52:20 WalkerBoh: is that like the chinese definition of interesting 23:52:32 Right, but I don't know how to get there without intruding on Berserk. 23:52:40 SamB: why chinese haha? 23:52:52 "may you live in interesting times" 23:52:54 and bh, i'm more worried about intruding on statue form 23:53:19 rename gargoyleform 23:53:22 if i were going to implement self-petrify, i'd probably have it function as a potion of might + resistance, with all movements slowed 23:53:59 then maybe you end up petrified w/ regen 1 or something after its duration 23:54:18 it's kind of like a mix of statue form and berserk... 23:55:03 i'm not sure whether that's interesting either, to be honest, but i think it's more in the right direction 23:55:40 Well, it seems that the character I've had parked on CSZO for like... months now could actually go enter Crypt now, so I may go get some more 'real-world' testing in :P 23:56:03 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:56:19 ??bh[2] 23:56:19 bh[2/2]: He's very sorry that you drowned in the abyss. 23:56:22 ??bh[1] 23:56:23 bh[1/2]: When it comes to stupid ideas, I'm your man. 23:56:37 Level 9 Earth/Air or Fire/Ice spells :) 23:58:12 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:58:23 bh, I took a gargoyle through most of the three rune game earlier (before dying to a tactical error on V:5). 23:58:39 One major comment from that: 23:59:03 Grunt: alas. I lost my DjHe last night. To a demonic crawler of all things. It even have Ivoc 27. Healing simply failed again and again and again 23:59:21 oh, here's another half-baked gargoyle idea: instead of contam giving them glow/mutations, it petrifies them 23:59:29 like if you get to yellow contam, you start turning to stone 23:59:34 I found I was spamming self-petrify when out of danger solely for the increased regen rate, which ended up feeling out of place after a while. 23:59:59 Grunt: yeah. I did the same