00:01:01 <|amethyst> just checked, it does not 00:01:11 well the setting in g3498412 just falls back to the code that was already there if it's not set to ignore 00:01:35 <|amethyst> so consistency would be for greedy_visit_sacrificeable not to visit things when autosacrifice is turned off 00:01:46 <|amethyst> which is what marvinpa's change does 00:01:53 (and the code that still is there, in stone_soup-0.12) 00:02:20 uhm no, it doesn't sacrifice for you unless auto_sacrifice is allowed to 00:02:33 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12.1-68-ge7e1dc2 00:03:06 03kilobyte 07[stone_soup-0.12] * 0.12.1-69-gc24c181: Revert "Revert "Don't prompt about sacrifices with auto_sacrifice set to false"" 10(7 minutes ago, 4 files, 13+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c24c181f8d9b 00:03:06 03kilobyte 07[stone_soup-0.12] * 0.12.1-70-gc7ef92d: Update the changelog. 10(87 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c7ef92d8e470 00:03:25 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:03:42 is there anything more for 0.12? 00:03:51 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1358-g20c23f8 (34) 00:04:33 -!- Fenvis has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:05:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:01 -!- syncopath has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:07:30 kilobyte: now you get to trigger a rebuild on s-z 00:07:31 <|amethyst> kilobyte: btw, I just tested, and prompt_ignore does work in 0.12 00:07:38 <|amethyst> well 00:07:57 <|amethyst> oh 00:08:03 or it will be broken all day! 00:08:05 <|amethyst> it did rebuild at the normal time 00:08:15 <|amethyst> I had rebuilt just before that 00:08:29 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12.1-70-gc7ef92d (34) 00:08:47 <|amethyst> hm 00:08:47 CDO is fine though 00:08:52 <|amethyst> the CAO build failed 00:08:57 oh? 00:08:58 <|amethyst> chown: changing ownership of `/chroot/crawl-master/crawl-0.12/saves/bones.D-9': No such file or directory 00:09:08 <|amethyst> I guess that's a race condition in the scripts 00:09:23 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.12.1-70-gc7ef92d 00:10:09 <|amethyst> it claims -66 in ?V because it wasn't rebuilt 00:10:15 <|amethyst> err 00:10:18 <|amethyst> because it wasn't recompiled 00:10:52 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1358-g20c23f8 (34) 00:11:13 <|amethyst> (since the net change in source code from -66 to HEAD is nil) 00:11:30 |amethyst: but it also said it built -68 00:11:47 <|amethyst> SamB: that was CSZO, I'm talking about CAO 00:11:50 oh 00:12:00 I forgot halfway through or something sorry 00:12:09 <|amethyst> CSZO will say -70 I believe, rebuilding now 00:12:12 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12.1-70-gc7ef92d 00:12:18 there we go 00:12:38 <|amethyst> yes, and ?V is right on CSZO 00:13:00 <|amethyst> is there something we should do about that? I guess I could make clean in the build scripts but that seem like a waste 00:13:16 <|amethyst> rm version.o in the build scripts maybe? 00:13:32 that would do it, yes 00:13:41 er, wouldn't it? 00:13:55 <|amethyst> ISTR I tried that once and it diesn't quite work 00:13:59 maybe touching version.cc would be better 00:14:40 * SamB tests 00:15:08 <|amethyst> or rm build.h 00:15:16 <|amethyst> since that's what needs to regenerate 00:15:45 <|amethyst> or the build.h rule could do the same kind of tracking we do with cflags 00:15:57 yeah 00:16:03 <|amethyst> but I guess that only works if you have git? 00:16:12 possibly 00:16:28 One annoying tidbit in webtiles. 00:16:43 While you see the healthbar under you now. 00:16:45 anyway, adding the "rm build.h" to your script is probably best ... 00:16:52 It disappears when you change form. :t 00:17:26 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:19:00 yellow draconian zealot (09d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 68-91 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64), 08acid | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2173 | Sp: acid splash (3d7+7d5); demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:19:00 <|amethyst> %??draconian zealot 00:19:06 grey draconian zealot (09d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 68-91 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2173 | Sp: nonexistent spell, demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:19:06 <|amethyst> %??grey draconian zealot 00:19:15 why are those green 00:19:31 <|amethyst> I was wondering about Sp: nonexistent spell 00:19:37 <|amethyst> I guess that's "lack of breath"? 00:19:49 deep elf high priest (09e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 39-60 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 14 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(88) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1048 | Sp: demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:19:49 <|amethyst> %??deep elf high priest 00:19:56 |amethyst: you mean SP_NONE ? 00:20:14 <|amethyst> SamB: SPELL_NO_SPELL you mean? 00:20:23 probably 00:20:30 <|amethyst> SamB: that doesn't show up for most monster's empty slots 00:20:35 <|amethyst> and it doesn't have any empty slots anyway 00:20:41 oh 00:20:45 <|amethyst> I guess it's monster's special-casing for the breath 00:21:22 purple draconian zealot (09d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 68-91 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2173 | Sp: b.quicksilver (3d20), demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:21:22 %??purple draconian zealot 00:21:46 so ... what's with the coloring? 00:22:07 priest color, presumably 00:22:11 I guess so 00:22:21 orc high priest (09o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 41-68 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Dam: 7 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(58) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1005 | Sp: pain (d13), demon, smiting (7-17), heal other, minor healing | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:22:21 %??orc high priest 00:22:34 unknown monster: "gnoll high shaman" 00:22:34 %??gnoll high shaman 00:22:49 gnoll shaman (16g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 12-27 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(16) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 40 | Sp: corona, petrify, heal other, haste other, minor healing | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 00:22:49 %??gnoll shaman 00:25:17 grey draconian zealot (09d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 68-91 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2173 | Sp: demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:25:17 <|amethyst> %??grey draconian zealot 00:25:21 <|amethyst> fixes 00:25:25 <|amethyst> s/xes/xed 00:25:28 grey draconian zealot (09d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 68-91 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2173 | Sp: nonexistent spell, demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:25:28 <|amethyst> %?grey draconian zealot 00:25:37 grey draconian zealot (09d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 69-89 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2171 | Sp: nonexistent spell, demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:25:37 <|amethyst> %0.11?grey draconian zealot 00:25:39 grey draconian zealot (09d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 69-93 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2172 | Sp: nonexistent spell, demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:25:39 <|amethyst> %0.10?grey draconian zealot 00:25:50 <|amethyst> hm 00:26:07 <|amethyst> no, I don't think I'm going to backport that 00:26:52 <|amethyst> maybe to 0.12 I guess 00:27:21 well, I just finished testing Windows builds, and was about to push the tag 00:27:30 should I stop? 00:27:37 <|amethyst> this was a fix in monster, you're fine 00:27:43 ah cool 00:27:50 grey draconian zealot (09d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 68-91 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2173 | Sp: demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:27:50 <|amethyst> %0.12?grey draconian zealot 00:28:26 Do djinn use both regeneration types? 00:28:38 (Which to say is gain essence from both hp and mp regeneration.) 00:30:23 Bloax: only hp 00:31:00 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:17 Well that's rather unfortunate unless you like it being complete hell to roll a caster. 00:31:32 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:34:04 I was pondering making it max(hp regen, mp regen) 00:34:11 -!- syncopath_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:34:20 the latter is higher on D:1, the former everywhere else 00:35:04 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1358-g20c23f8 00:38:21 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:31 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:38:39 <|amethyst> kilobyte: re the prompt thing, maybe what makes the most sense is a separate option that affects both greedy_pickup_* (when you can't pickup an item because of weight) and greedy_sacrificeable 00:41:34 todo: cherry pick .12.2 changelog to trunk and update trunk changelog 00:41:39 -!- absolute1o_ is now known as absolutego_ 00:42:29 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: would you be opposed to the sac visit prompting behaviour being tied to the autopickup prompting behaviour? 00:43:12 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: so that, with your setting, you wouldn't be prompted about whether to mark an unpickable stack as visited? 00:43:21 Grunt: 0.12.1 is not there as well 00:43:38 not 0.11.3 00:43:42 s/t/r/ 00:44:16 <|amethyst> s/wouldn't/also wouldn't/ 00:46:59 03kilobyte 07[stone_soup-0.12] * 0.12.2-1-gc0885cb: Old changelog for 0.11.3 10(47 seconds ago, 1 file, 10+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c0885cb76b63 00:47:19 |amethyst: i'm not sure i understand 00:47:20 faster regen in the very early game probably wouldn't change much, I think the big challenge is that casting even your level 1 spells reduces you into dangerously low hp 00:47:44 i guess with stuff like magic dart you can survive thanks to the range, but flame tongue is low range 00:48:08 when else do you get prompted about pickup? 00:48:13 -!- johlstei__ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:48:19 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1359-gcc45691: Changelogs for 0.11.3, 0.12.1 and 0.12.2. 10(38 seconds ago, 1 file, 34+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cc45691717da 00:48:28 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: with your preferred behaviour for greedy_visit_sacrificeable, if you try to explore away from a sacrificeable item, you don't get a prompt 00:48:32 more important question is, do they need to be good early game casters? they could just have all caster backgrounds restricted, leaving them as clear challenge options 00:48:51 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: when you try to explore away from an autopickup item that's too heavy, or when you don't have enough slots, you get a similar prompt 00:49:02 aaah 00:49:36 hmm, well there's sort of an option for that already but it only covers "prompt" and "pick up anyway" i think? 00:49:43 <|amethyst> what option? 00:49:51 <|amethyst> oh 00:49:53 <|amethyst> for weight 00:49:58 <|amethyst> but you might not be able to 00:50:04 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-1360-g7292793: Fix spacing. 10(24 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7292793f7794 00:50:18 oh right if you're completely overloaded or have no slots? 00:50:19 <|amethyst> if your slots are full, or if the item really is too heavy to carry at all 00:50:30 ahh okay i see what you mean now 00:51:06 i'm not really sure because i don't think i run into that very much :P 00:51:14 <|amethyst> I do because I'm a bad player 00:51:19 <|amethyst> and carry too much stuff :) 00:51:28 <|amethyst> usually with chunks actually 00:51:46 <|amethyst> (that could be tuned with other options) 00:51:53 <|amethyst> but sometimes because of a full inventory 00:52:20 it's not "not very much", it's more like "for almost every item" 00:52:32 hmm yeah, i think probably it seems fine to just print a message instead of prompting in that case, yeah 00:53:09 <|amethyst> easy_mark_visited ? 00:53:12 it's bad to ignore that wand of heal wounds just because you butchered a yak recently 00:54:10 but then, I see no reason to ever leave a corpse unsacced and unbutchered while you insist reminding about that breaks the game 00:54:27 (if your god wants sacrifices, that is) 00:54:31 <|amethyst> corpses aren't the problem, it's nemelex 00:54:41 Debian builds of 0.12 branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12.2 00:54:57 <|amethyst> I guess some people don't want to hoover the whole dungeon (of their selected item classes) 00:55:16 so why have they selected them? 00:55:29 either you want a given deck type or you don't 00:55:51 autoexplore already walked you there, so there's no extra time lost 00:55:54 <|amethyst> kilobyte: that doesn't mean you want to sac every scroll of recharging you come across 00:56:24 <|amethyst> (granted, you can just o-n and it's ignored) 00:56:29 <|amethyst> err, o-y 00:56:58 <|amethyst> I'm not making arguments as to which should be the default 00:57:17 <|amethyst> but it's clear there's disagreement so it should be tunable 00:57:50 alternately, nemelex could just not let the player choose deck types - gift random ones, weighted for balance, irrespective of what's being sacrificed 00:57:52 <|amethyst> and, to me, if you're willing to risk missing sacrifices like that you're probably willing to risk miss pickups 00:57:54 why would you leave the scroll then? 00:58:08 <|amethyst> kilobyte: because you don't have conservation 00:58:11 rchandra: +1 00:58:14 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:58:15 -!- pelotron has quit [Quit: ~Internet()] 00:58:44 choosing deck types is pretty spoily 00:59:08 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I usually turn off pickup of recharging, enchant weapon, magic mapping, etc after I have one or two 00:59:58 <|amethyst> I could autoinscribe them !p I guess, but that requires init.txt work 01:01:50 -!- ground4 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 01:03:31 <|amethyst> kilobyte: maybe your objection could be fixed if o somehow knew that you arrived at the current square in a way that didn't allow autopickup, so the first time you pressed o it would "revisit" the current tile and pickup/autosac or at least give you the item list? 01:04:00 <|amethyst> kilobyte: since as I understand it the situation where you miss items is when you stepped on them during combat, and ended combat while still on them 01:04:01 that's probably the main use case, yeah 01:04:05 -!- t4nk755 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:05:41 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05:42 -!- voker57__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:30 <|amethyst> so autovisiting to a spot would set a "visited to" flag on the stack; and o would: if visited-to: work as it currently does; else: pretend we just got here (and set visited-to) 01:06:47 <|amethyst> "as it currently does" might or might not include an option for prompting 01:06:57 too bad these flags are set at the wrong time currently 01:08:13 <|amethyst> I looked at the code some time ago but don't remember it well 01:10:18 Sludge Elf still appears in aptitudes list by prozacelf 01:11:17 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 01:11:52 -!- Cerepol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12:10 -!- Kintak has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:42 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:55 Also why isn't Dj regeneration hp+mp regen? 01:13:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:13:08 Because I'm very slow in the morning. 01:13:58 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:14:15 Bloax: the species is extremely overpowered even without that 01:14:45 Well I'm watching Akett suffer DjCj. 01:15:07 <|amethyst> Bloax: XL 2 01:15:13 <|amethyst> Bloax: consider XL 10 or XL 20 01:16:25 Well he has splatted some 7 or so times now. 01:16:27 If not more. 01:16:30 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:51 <|amethyst> Bloax: we know that early Dj casters are bad 01:17:17 <|amethyst> Bloax: but your proposed fix isn't the right one, as later Dj casters don't need the buff at all 01:18:38 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1361-gdfef345: Remove the line for sludge Elves from the aptitudes table. 10(57 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dfef345e98da 01:20:11 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:21:07 and so 01:21:08 Akett: UGH, AT LEAST GIVE DJS A FUCKING BONUS TO HITTING WITH THEIR SPELLS SO THEY AREN'T WASTING HP TO DO NOTHING! 01:21:28 the agitation intensifies 01:22:42 -!- ragingrage has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:24:08 <|amethyst> could file a bug about it... would give kilobyte something to close when he fixes it :) 01:25:00 <|amethyst> 2013-05-30.log:16:57 <+kilobyte> I found XL1-2 conjurers to be incredibly weak, to the point of wanting to melee everything instead of casting; and higher level ones to become overpowered 01:25:19 -!- t4nk793 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:26:05 i wonder if this is right 01:26:07 !lg Akett DjCj start>=2013-06-01 max=xl 01:26:07 13. Akett the Ruinous (L6 DjCj), blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on D:4 on 2013-06-01 05:24:32, with 455 points after 6073 turns and 0:11:38. 01:27:13 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:27:22 As complete sidenote, magic dart might be better if it did a static 1 damage more than it does now. 01:27:40 <|amethyst> of course it would be better 01:27:55 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:27:57 <|amethyst> I don't know that it needs to be better 01:28:29 you could make it 1d7+1 for all I care. 01:28:30 <|amethyst> battlesphere was already a huge buff to magic dart :) 01:28:43 Rolling a couple of ones in a row is just stupid. 01:29:16 <|amethyst> more stupid than rolling a couple of ones in a row in melee? 01:29:52 About as stupid as almost dying to a kobold with ~30 maxhp because you missed it seven times in a row. 01:30:42 Bloax: all early casters get that 01:30:57 Get what? 01:31:30 two magic darts then merry pillar dancing 01:33:02 as for mp regen: if Dj got mp instead of hp regen, a starting Cj would have regen rate of 17 rather than 4 01:33:38 too bad, such a change would makr pure fighters rapidly regen too 01:34:25 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:34:39 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 01:35:36 you could give them a regeneration bonus post casting 01:35:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:02 a starting character's regen is: hp: maxhp/3, mp: 7 + maxmp/2 (and Dj's ratio EP ratio is 2:1) 01:36:15 though ofc then l8r then they'd be even more op later yadda yadda 01:36:22 <|amethyst> kilobyte: use their "real" maxmp instead? 01:36:42 |amethyst: that's counting only the "real" value, yeah 01:36:47 <|amethyst> oh 01:36:55 which is 3 for a starting Cj 01:37:14 dominated by the constant factor 01:37:25 hm 01:37:42 You could make spells regenerate some 50% or something over a couple of turns. 01:37:45 <|amethyst> kilobyte: how do you get 17? 01:37:49 As long as essence is below 75 or something. 01:37:54 That would help. :v 01:38:04 |amethyst: (7 + maxmp/2) * 2 01:38:11 And unless you like living dangerously later on, probably not worth using later. 01:38:16 <|amethyst> kilobyte: oh, applying the conversion factor 01:38:21 <|amethyst> kilobyte: don't do that then :) 01:38:52 |amethyst: I turned both into the same scale 01:39:15 <|amethyst> well, then give them the max of hp regen and half mp regen :P 01:39:53 ie, they would get only half the mp regen of other races on D:1? 01:40:55 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:40:56 perhaps the constant factor could be included directly 01:41:18 <|amethyst> that's better than giving DjFi troll-level regen 01:41:24 <|amethyst> on l1 01:41:32 hmm right 01:41:50 <|amethyst> well 01:41:57 <|amethyst> I guess it wouldn't be quite troll level 01:42:16 <|amethyst> oh, 7 was constant 01:42:21 <|amethyst> so yeah 01:43:26 D:1 trolls have rr of 48 01:43:42 <|amethyst> oh, so nowhere near troll level 01:45:47 you realize it's possible to get to XL2 on D:1 01:46:13 <|amethyst> I took "D:1" to mean "having just reached D:1" 01:46:20 it's possible to get xl3 50% 01:47:18 Bloax: kill a few D:1 OODs and you'll get much higher 01:47:32 like, with a mummy 01:47:41 or a dj 01:47:51 or that 01:48:08 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:50:38 -!- johlstei__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:28 half mp regen and half mp 01:55:38 those poor early dj casters 01:55:52 rr += (100 - you.hp_max) / 6; 01:55:56 does this sound ok? 01:56:21 Jevouse: How about adding "mp costs are doubled and take from your health" to the wound. 01:56:38 i was counting that 01:56:41 a starting DjCj instead of 4/17 would get 18 01:57:40 The problem is just that it wouldn't really help with the main problem. 01:57:50 Which is that you'll literally be dying by the time you'll kill something. 01:58:01 And god have mercy on your soul if there's more of them. 01:58:03 quite so 01:58:25 i guess if you scale the regen back u can give them more essence to play around with 01:58:31 I think some fast restoration of the mp or even slightly more. 01:58:41 But only below a certain threshold of essence might work. 01:58:57 Because that would at least make you less dead faster. 01:59:07 an ordinary conjurer doesn't enjoy the sum of that, unless you get into a fight stupidly 01:59:24 ordinary conjurer doesn't need to kill himself to kill others too 01:59:26 and even if he would get both, 21 is hardly more than 18 02:00:12 sure 02:00:27 so make the mp_scaling 1.5x instead of 2x and see how that goes 02:00:51 Either way, it's not like we don't have someone grinding DjCj's at the moment. 02:00:54 so 3 essence would be 2 mp i guess 02:00:58 And I don't like seeing him torturing himself. 02:01:35 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring / xl=1 02:01:39 385819/1868134 games for * (!boring): N=385819/1868134 (20.65%) 02:01:51 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring s=crace / xl=1 02:01:55 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:01:56 385819/1868134 games for * (!boring): 55447/204019x Demonspawn [27.18%], 33030/143284x Deep Elf [23.05%], 28982/97269x Mummy [29.80%], 26193/113438x Spriggan [23.09%], 25149/100844x High Elf [24.94%], 18245/70945x Vampire [25.72%], 17945/65265x Naga [27.50%], 16626/62283x Sludge Elf [26.69%], 15648/78805x Kobold [19.86%], 15314/69666x Human [21.98%], 13676/81027x Hill Orc [16.88%], 13371/74905x Me... 02:02:09 who's grinding djcj 02:02:10 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring djcj / xl=1 02:02:11 58/103 games for * (!boring djcj): N=58/103 (56.31%) 02:02:14 https://crawl.s-z.org/#watch-Akett 02:02:25 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring djfe / xl=1 02:02:25 334/651 games for * (!boring djfe): N=334/651 (51.31%) 02:02:29 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring dj / xl=1 02:02:30 748/1667 games for * (!boring dj): N=748/1667 (44.87%) 02:02:55 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring s=crace o=-% / xl=1 02:02:58 how is boring determined 02:02:59 did i miss something, what is so significant about this Akett person? 02:03:00 385819/1868136 games for * (!boring): 2852/56347x Troll [5.06%], 1855/35631x Deep Dwarf [5.21%], 9444/116600x Minotaur [8.10%], 7944/77718x Mountain Dwarf [10.22%], 2581/23902x Centaur [10.80%], 212/1531x Hill Dwarf [13.85%], 11240/77993x Draconian [14.41%], 32/201x Gargoyle [15.92%], 4659/28333x Tengu [16.44%], 8332/49890x Ogre [16.70%], 13676/81027x Hill Orc [16.88%], 4825/27642x Halfling [17.46... 02:03:06 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring s=crace o=% / xl=1 02:03:11 385819/1868137 games for * (!boring): 1/1x Yak [100.00%], 748/1667x Djinni [44.87%], 1445/3720x Ogre-Mage [38.84%], 348/990x Elf [35.15%], 1011/3151x Gnome [32.09%], 1648/5430x Grey Elf [30.35%], 28982/97269x Mummy [29.80%], 9015/32065x Felid [28.11%], 17945/65265x Naga [27.50%], 55447/204020x Demonspawn [27.18%], 9166/34001x Demigod [26.96%], 16626/62283x Sludge Elf [26.69%], 18245/70945x Vampire... 02:03:20 !lg Akett DjCj start>=2013-06-01 02:03:20 17. Akett the Ruinous (L4 DjCj), mangled by Crazy Yiuf (a +3,+4 quarterstaff of chaos) on D:3 on 2013-06-01 07:02:16, with 229 points after 5842 turns and 0:10:43. 02:03:23 <|amethyst> Dixlet: not a quit or leaving the dungeon 02:03:49 Nothing except kind of showing how painful DjCj is. 02:03:52 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring djcj s=name o=% / xl=1 02:03:53 58/104 games for * (!boring djcj): 1/1x Sakkce [100.00%], 2/2x cptwinky [100.00%], 1/1x neotelesocio [100.00%], 1/1x tsouns [100.00%], 1/1x Chris7 [100.00%], 1/1x friendlybee [100.00%], 2/2x neil [100.00%], 1/1x dvdking [100.00%], 1/1x lemonpieman [100.00%], 1/1x Drone [100.00%], 2/2x SamB [100.00%], 2/2x Priscilla [100.00%], 1/1x AnotherFerret [100.00%], 1/1x patman [100.00%], 2/2x btp826 [100.00... 02:03:57 !hs akett 02:03:58 202. Akett the Conqueror (L27 SEEE), worshipper of Ashenzari, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-11-09 07:15:35, with 9566410 points after 177297 turns and 1d+7:17:44. 02:04:07 I'm not sure one specific person having problems with a class is a good balance metric 02:04:12 s/class/combo 02:04:30 which is why |amethyst is currently looking at the stats i suspect 02:04:37 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:05:33 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring lo o=% / xl=1 02:05:34 352/1442 games for * (!boring lo): N=352/1442 (24.41%) 02:05:39 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring gr o=% / xl=1 02:05:40 33/202 games for * (!boring gr): N=33/202 (16.34%) 02:05:46 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring gargoyle o=% / xl=1 02:05:46 33/202 games for * (!boring gargoyle): N=33/202 (16.34%) 02:06:12 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring race=~g*r*o* o=% / xl=1 02:06:14 93/4875 games for * (!boring race=~g*r*o*): N=93/4875 (1.91%) 02:06:45 <|amethyst> oh, gray draconian 02:07:20 <|amethyst> !lg * !boring race=~g*r*o*e* o=% / xl=1 02:07:22 93/543 games for * (!boring race=~g*r*o*e*): N=93/543 (17.13%) 02:07:50 <|amethyst> dj start does seem abnormally hard 02:08:13 <|amethyst> I was just curious 02:08:40 You have miscasts and misses that drain your health and you're not much stronger than normal casters. 02:08:58 don't need to look far for the reasons 02:09:57 so dj has great apts for it but is actually really terrible for casters 02:10:12 the revenge of setm 02:10:19 <|amethyst> really terrible for early casters 02:10:36 <|amethyst> this matters because just buffing djinn casters across the board would make high-level ones even more broken 02:11:05 so it benefits those who just look upon it as having more hp early 02:11:07 the essence mechanic seems -really- hard to deal with considering all the potential things in crawl that interact with it 02:11:14 then switch later 02:11:52 <|amethyst> Jevouse: currently, yes 02:12:01 -!- Vbitz has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:12:03 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:12:07 <|amethyst> I'm not sure what everyone is trying to convince us of 02:12:09 discouraging early djinn casters might actually help it balance out the high end too 02:12:18 not that I said anything new there Ig uess 02:12:48 -!- Vbitz has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:13:21 but it doesn't though dixlet, it's not like djinn only has great apts for casting 02:13:38 -!- Vbitz has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:13:56 Dixlet: Discouraging is an entirely different matter from making it pure torture to roll out one. 02:14:07 Troll casters are discouraged but it's not like you can't try. 02:14:13 Even for the laughs. 02:14:24 -!- Vbitz has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:15:10 -!- Vbitz has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:15:13 uh 02:15:15 Giving you only one way of killing things (spells) and making that only way kill you a lot of the time is a new tier of pain. 02:15:23 troll casters are actually really good 02:15:31 :p 02:15:31 TrIE, a good "caster" 02:15:53 !lg * win char=trie s=god 02:15:53 12 games for * (win char=trie): 3x Trog, 3x Yredelemnul, 2x Okawaru, Makhleb, Ashenzari, Nemelex Xobeh, Sif Muna 02:15:54 this is like the opposite 02:15:56 nuff said 02:16:20 by "caster" I mean all my trolls have relied on Ozo's Armour so I think having it to start sounds good 02:16:39 stoneskin, statue form 02:16:59 also acceptable 02:17:56 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1351-gb8f0ea2: Don't let Box of Beasts create ravens at low Evo 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b8f0ea2c8657 02:17:56 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1352-g6151fdc: Remove deck again from starting kit 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6151fdc10658 02:17:56 03mumra 07[evoker-playstyle] * 0.13-a0-1355-gf502b51: Merge branch 'evoker-playstyle' of gitorious.org:crawl/crawl into evoker-playstyle 10(71 seconds ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f502b51d947e 02:17:57 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1362-g8a5cac0: Scale early Dj regen. 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8a5cac0290d9 02:17:57 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-1363-g4786dc5: Tentatively halve Dj^Ely self-healing. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4786dc52d32f 02:17:59 <|amethyst> kilobyte: would making the EP:MP ratio 1:1 below a certain currhp work? 02:18:13 <|amethyst> kilobyte: or help at least, without breaking too much 02:19:21 Dj^Sif? 02:19:24 |amethyst: conveying to the player that the costs have been raised after a certain level would be problematic, I'm afraid 02:19:58 !lg * win crace=djinni s=char,god,urune 02:19:58 5 games for * (win crace=djinni): 2x DjFE (Vehumet (15), Zin (3)), 2x DjHe (Nemelex Xobeh (3), Elyvilon (3)), DjSu (Elyvilon (3)) 02:20:05 <|amethyst> kilobyte: yeah, I guess a different colour wouldn't be clear enough 02:20:55 the gods are misleading: Zin was really Okawaru, Nemelex really Ely 02:21:02 kilobyte: just for reference, the nemelex game cleared zot:5 then went for a title 02:21:13 ah you beat me to it :) 02:21:42 I'm still kicking around with the idea of giving back the mp below a threshold of health. 02:22:00 <|amethyst> giving back the mp? 02:22:03 <|amethyst> as in free casting? 02:22:20 As in not killing you as fast for casting. 02:22:30 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:35 Because casting is your only way of killing stuff. :v 02:22:43 <|amethyst> not killing you as fast how? 02:22:55 <|amethyst> kilobyte just buffed the regen 02:23:00 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:12 I'm still kicking around with the idea of giving back the mp below a threshold of health. 02:23:16 it went from 21 to 18? 02:23:27 <|amethyst> Bloax: what do you mean by "giving back"? giving back the whole MP cost? 02:23:30 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:35 also, a good part of testing so far quite doesn't count because of Wucad Mu 02:23:38 <|amethyst> Jevouse: no, it went from 4 to 18 02:23:39 free spells below a certain essence threshold? 02:23:44 The whole spell mp cost over time 02:23:44 Jevouse: was 4 02:23:49 ahh 02:23:53 You'll still take the conversion damage. 02:24:11 <|amethyst> err 02:24:15 But if you have below 60 essence then doubled spell costs and having them damage you is kinda ass. 02:24:15 <|amethyst> isn't that what regen is? 02:24:47 Well good luck finding regen. :p 02:24:52 <|amethyst> ... 02:25:11 terminologies 02:25:15 terminologies everywhere ~~ 02:25:20 quack 02:26:03 ??regen 02:26:04 regeneration[1/6]: Increases the rate at which you regain HP per turn, at the expense of more nutrition. Different sources stack and vary in effectiveness. The default hunger rate for most races is 3 nutrition per turn. A ring of regeneration takes that to 6 per turn. Regeneration doesn't work when you're {sick}; instead it makes Sickness disappear faster. 02:26:08 Passive regeneration I'd say is different from lessening the conversion rate in a non-instant way below a threshold. 02:27:13 in practice though, they would both tend to a hard floor 02:29:13 as a % of hp , except that your floor would stay constant and theirs would depend on fighting/spellcasting skill but would probably go up 02:29:15 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:32 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:56 -!- ontoclasm1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:33 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 273 seconds] 02:32:30 is there a reason !beneficial mutation isn't coloured like cure mutation and the old gain foo? 02:32:54 <|amethyst> not all "good" mutations are always good 02:33:33 ??Orb_of_fire [2 02:33:34 orb of fire[2/2]: The orb of fire glows yellow. Strange energies course through your body. A pair of horns grows on your head! _The +2 helmet of Saih {+Rage rF++} falls away! 02:35:00 I suppose. I'll just have to do it in the rcfile then :) 02:39:43 -!- myrmidette has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:39:59 so what with potions using random colours? What about giving all unknown ones the same colour, and marking known ones instead? 02:40:10 Also rip DjHe 02:40:27 (it's probably still broken) 02:40:51 Lightli: without Wucad Mu? 02:41:14 My DjHe win was without Wucad Mu. Ely healing alone was ridiculous enough 02:41:23 ah 02:41:26 It helped that I had a triple sword of holy wrath though 02:41:49 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:42:02 And CPA. 02:43:38 <|amethyst> kilobyte: colour known ones kind of like their inv colouring? (useless, dangerous, good, emergency) or more colours than that? 02:43:44 <|amethyst> kilobyte: and what about tiles? 02:43:54 <|amethyst> kilobyte: since they already have icons 02:44:12 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:44:20 -!- dupo has quit [] 02:44:39 changing console colours doesn't matter for tiles 02:44:42 <|amethyst> it would seem a little weird for floor potions to visibly change when you identify a different potion of the same kind 02:45:02 <|amethyst> but I guess they do in tiles with the badge 02:45:13 yeah 02:45:21 decorative colours in tiles can stay 02:45:52 <|amethyst> but since console is so limited in bandwidth better to spend more of it on more useful information I guess 02:46:28 <|amethyst> (not literal bandwidth) 02:47:19 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:47:23 <|amethyst> kilobyte: shouldn't be hard to make it optional, right? 02:48:05 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I could see some players feeling it lessens immersion 02:49:16 i don't see what the problem is with potion colours as they are? 02:49:43 <|amethyst> mumra: they're not really useful 02:49:45 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:50:11 the proposed change isn't any *more* useful 02:50:18 and they don't seem to be doing any harm 02:50:48 -!- bhaak_ is now known as bhaak 02:50:48 <|amethyst> mumra: being able to see at a glance whether a potion across the room is known or unknown, and if known good or bad 02:51:27 hmm, i suppose 02:51:28 <|amethyst> mumra: which you can do with ctrl-x but that is mildly disruptive 02:51:48 well as long as tiles isn't changed, the situation is fine there :P 02:52:03 mumra: no one cares about tiles anyway :p 02:52:15 <|amethyst> kilobyte: what about staves and rods? 02:52:34 <|amethyst> kilobyte: for books it's not really necessary 02:53:51 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:02 wands 02:54:18 scrolls might be hated by some 02:56:15 with significant changes to rods and misc items it might make sense to pre-identify rods anyway like other miscs 02:57:58 <|amethyst> go the other direction and require ?ID to even use a rod 02:58:01 <|amethyst> :P 02:58:11 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:59:04 quaff-id a canister of antimatter 02:59:29 <|amethyst> FR: that turns you into a Light Elemental 02:59:32 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:00:31 :) 03:00:32 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:05:53 -!- eb has quit [] 03:09:27 by the way, i approve of the changes to the orbrun, whoever pushed that 03:09:36 having 6 golden eyes pop out of nowhere was good times 03:09:58 and orb guardians chasing you makes a lot of sense 03:10:19 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:04 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 03:12:31 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:12:38 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:14:31 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:37 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 03:17:44 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:47 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:28:48 <|amethyst> the no-antitraining thing I suggested before for SE... would that make sense for humans 03:30:37 I like the idea, but maybe DE should get it 03:30:44 <|amethyst> DE doesn't need a buff 03:30:49 <|amethyst> DE^Vehumet even less 03:31:32 Make it so that a human's apt gets better the more you train at it? 03:31:42 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:31:51 <|amethyst> exponential skill curves sound bad 03:32:04 <|amethyst> I mean, exponential in that direction 03:32:41 Not much better, just a little 03:33:05 just a little exponential 03:33:41 human get crosstraining on everything 03:33:53 ontoclasm1: That is hilarious and I love the idea 03:34:09 but it would be broken beyond belief 03:34:12 all skills lower than your highest are at +2 03:34:33 <|amethyst> ontoclasm1: you mean, +4 to your second-highest skill, +8 to your third-highest, ... :) 03:34:41 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:34:41 do it 03:34:45 be a man 03:34:52 or woman i guess 03:35:35 <|amethyst> ??skillrobin 03:35:36 skillrobin[1/2]: Only train one skill at a time. No switching until you reach 27! 03:35:43 +1 crosstraining sounds pretty nice at least 03:36:16 all it would do is slightly encourage you to get several skills 03:36:33 <|amethyst> it would encourage you to level one skill first 03:36:33 since when you hit mindelay or whatever then it's easier to pick up other stuff 03:36:40 oh 03:36:45 <|amethyst> so you don't have many skills within one of that one 03:37:05 <|amethyst> the more time you spend with close skill levels, the less you get your racial bonus 03:37:13 I don't know, just give humans +1 apt in everything? It's heretical but 03:37:18 huh? you get the biggest bonus if you train every skill the same amount 03:37:35 or rather, get one high-ish then have everything else catch up 03:38:08 humans don't need bigger apts, but the no-antitraining thing sounds interesting 03:38:24 <|amethyst> ontoclasm1: that's what I said 03:38:36 mumra: Buff their spellcasting to 0 03:38:41 <|amethyst> ontoclasm1: by "close skill levels" I guess I meant "a close 2nd place" 03:39:11 ah 03:39:14 Lightli: i don't think they need a strict buff 03:39:25 <|amethyst> and nerf their invo evo and stealth 03:39:32 anyway, i guess i should sleep at some point?? 03:39:35 mumra: They have -1 spellcasting, the idea is they should be the baseline. 03:39:37 -!- ontoclasm1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:39:39 you know, humans' distinctive feature is that they're plain :P 03:39:46 joke option: remove humans 03:40:01 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:40:15 <|amethyst> that's less of a joke than some of your suggestions for them have been 03:40:25 <|amethyst> no offense intended 03:40:29 none taken 03:40:30 elliott: having no antitraining kind of reinforces that, they're so plain they're equally good at training everything; also remove crosstraining 03:40:42 remember when humans had 0 spellcasting but 0 meant a different thing 03:40:47 for spellcasting 03:40:56 that made less sense 03:41:00 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:41:01 yes 03:41:21 mumra: yes but that is making them special to emphasise how plain they are... 03:41:25 surely you see a problem here :P 03:41:30 <|amethyst> mumra: would anyone even notice crosstraining being gone? 03:41:36 <|amethyst> mumra: I guess long blades and staff users maybe 03:41:40 we could give *everything* +1 to spellcasting, then change the effect of spellcasting so it's actually the same as before, then humans will have +0 across the board 03:41:41 <|amethyst> because of starting weapon choice 03:41:42 no more green and red on the m screen 03:41:44 everyone'd notice 03:42:27 elliott: surely their plainness *is* special to begin with? (i don't know what point i am trying to make here) 03:42:34 :-) 03:42:50 mumra: Not good enough, all races must have at least one gimmick 03:43:09 in a world where everything has a gimmick, not have a gimmick *is* a gimmick 03:43:24 <|amethyst> mumra: not necessarily a fun one to play though :) 03:43:53 i think humans are fun 03:44:18 <|amethyst> it's not that I think they're unfun 03:44:29 <|amethyst> I just rarely get inspired to play a human 03:45:34 Human, the replacement for Sludge Elf 03:45:49 <|amethyst> it's so appropriate! 03:46:23 well I'm also entirely serious just because it's a good substitute for most of the backgrounds SE is/was good at 03:47:05 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:47:34 although it ends up playing a bit differently, and now I've ruined the "nobody wants to play this" joke I guess 03:48:00 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:15 |amethyst: i think racial gimmicks are fun in how they mix up the core gameplay, but it's also good to have that core gameplay available gimmick-free, because it's still fun; 03:49:16 you might not find that as interesting as some of the more specialised races but i think it's an important niche 03:50:02 -!- UglyThing has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:14 however, from my point of view the no-antitraining idea kind of fits that idea anyway; it doesn't get in the way and it's really quite a minor thing since opposing schools tend to work against each other in more than just training 03:51:38 statueform tornadoknight 03:51:55 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:00 although i realise some players consider humans "perfect" as is (at least, this was crate's comment in the "which aspects of crawl are perfect" thread) 03:52:41 No anti-training sounds like a cool addition to a boring race. 03:52:47 It'd be a little hard to notice some things about Crawl if humans didn't exist as a baseline to play 03:52:59 humans are one of the least boring races though 03:53:16 if you think humans are boring because they don't have a gimmick you're missing the point 03:54:11 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:54:19 <|amethyst> I stand corrected :) 03:56:40 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:11 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:02:45 -!- Pepe has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:45 -!- y2s82 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:06:09 hmm 04:06:41 trog should burn magic staves too! 04:08:11 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:13:41 -!- Vbitz has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:15:30 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:37 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:10 !tell Grunt i'm not convinced about the high-level clouds on the rod; especially ghostly flame if available should probably be on its own unique evokable. 04:19:11 mumra: OK, I'll let grunt know. 04:20:03 !tell Grunt i'd instead recommend miasma, alongside perhaps and new acid clouds and thunder clouds 04:20:03 mumra: OK, I'll let grunt know. 04:20:16 ?? ghostly flame 04:20:17 I don't have a page labeled ghostly_flame in my learndb. 04:20:48 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:16 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 04:22:14 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:24:59 -!- namad8 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:26:45 -!- lordfrikk has quit [Client Quit] 04:28:39 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:44 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:29:19 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:33:33 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:35:42 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: gammafunk] 04:39:31 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:44:46 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45:24 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:33 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:46:09 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:46:12 mumra: what is this rod thing 04:46:19 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:46:28 rod of clouds 04:46:57 uhm aren't cloud things op-ish already 04:47:06 exactly 04:47:18 well don't suggest miasma :p 04:47:37 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:44 the idea is for it to also be xp-recharged like the new misc items 04:47:54 -!- gammafunk has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:01 so it can have some effects that aren't available elsewhere 04:48:14 huh why are djinn slow hovering over lava 04:48:21 shouldn't they be able to swim in it if they wanted to 04:48:31 *djinni, i guess 04:49:09 anyway if you think miasma is OP, the current implementation on grunt's branch has seething chaos, mutagenic fog, and ghostly flame as the top-tier effects 04:49:27 of course you need extremely high evo for these effects as well 04:49:31 ?? ghost flame 04:49:31 I don't have a page labeled ghost_flame in my learndb. 04:49:38 chaos and mutagenit fog are probably things i'd rather not use 04:49:50 i haven't seen ghostly flame yet 04:49:51 the clouds thing *was* meant to be a nerf... 04:50:20 it seems silly having top-tier clouds that are often useless 04:50:38 or extremely annoying 04:50:59 and this is coming from someone who's cleared games with chaos weapons 04:51:04 i just wouldn't bother 04:51:41 also if you get random clouds this might invite grinding 04:52:08 i mean pillar dancing until you get what you want 04:52:10 absolutego_, --CK 04:52:11 elliott: the idea is to make the items *better*, but the type of cloud isn't the reason why rods are OP 04:52:21 Jevouse: --ck what 04:52:43 absolutego_: if the rod is XP-recharged then how can you pillar dance 04:52:47 mumra: well the point is that it is random so you get worse clouds on average... 04:52:52 as well as being able to merge 04:53:05 btw i assume the idea is to have *all* rods xp charged? it makes no sense to just have one be 04:53:09 well, i didn't know xp-recharding was going to be a thing with rods too 04:53:18 there's too much to keep track of! 04:53:27 absolutego_: what has happened here is you didn't read all of ##crawl-dev 04:53:30 leave for two weeks, come back to a racing simulator 04:53:40 i apologise 04:53:47 i'll do my research next time 04:53:51 actually this was only last night 04:54:00 -!- y2s82 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:54:14 we were bouncing some ideas around and grunt quickly implemented some stuff on a branch, but yes it definitely has problems as is 04:54:21 elliott: having all rods xp charged is one option sure 04:54:59 but actually i don't think many rods have a good reason to exist if we're changing their mechanics significantly 04:55:35 i mean the special selection aspect was surely part of the *point* of rods previously but if they're all turning into single-effect then really they're just more misc evokables 04:55:44 -!- fungee has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:55:48 -!- tswett has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:57 s/special/spell 04:56:00 does anyone recall i think the new rods were working fine already 04:56:08 swarm, lightning 04:56:08 new rods? 04:56:12 yeah those are the good ones 04:56:44 also i was writing two things at the same time, "does anyone recall" was meant to bring up that old wiki idea about committing spells from books to rods 04:56:59 then i stopped writing about it because it's probably awful 04:57:04 hmm, yeah that sounds bad 04:57:12 it was quite well reasoned, though 04:57:22 you'd need a lot of evo to make it worth it 04:58:07 i think rods need to be moving to be 100% unique single spell 04:58:15 i think having items that recharge while you wait makes rods too similar to just normal spellcasting; the xp-recharge mechanic is way more interesting (although, i don't think we should rob that mechanic for absolutely everything) 04:58:26 elliott: grunt's branch already does that 04:58:31 -!- y2s82_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:59:24 yes 04:59:25 that was re absolutego_ 05:00:04 yes, that was a very old idea 05:00:13 i like single-spell special-effect rods 05:00:24 i didn't think there were enough effects, but it turned out alright 05:00:39 i think letting the player make custom items (apart from the very simple case of enchanting hides) doesn't fit crawl very well 05:01:19