00:00:38 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12.1-43-gbc5e171 00:00:59 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 00:01:47 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-925-g1b4683e (34) 00:02:16 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-926-g43a2646: Allow raising skeletons (but no zombies) of ghoulies. 10(29 hours ago, 7 files, 35+ 9-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=43a2646eb2d3 00:02:16 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-927-g55b8bbf: Add a few checks for mon-data to --test. 10(57 minutes ago, 3 files, 42+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=55b8bbff7c99 00:02:16 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-928-gfca2993: Zombie settings for a few formerly unraisable monsters. 10(86 seconds ago, 1 file, 6+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fca2993bc995 00:04:29 -!- lessens has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:05:02 I'd propose axing laboratory rats. Unlike st_'s recent purge, I want to remove them precisely because they are on C++ side, unlike a harmless rename. 00:05:25 -!- TheKraken has quit [Quit: TheKraken] 00:05:29 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:47 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12.1-43-gbc5e171 (34) 00:05:51 a ghost_demon struct, especially 00:07:02 Giant amoeba and vampire mosquito zombies both feel a little odd to me, personally 00:08:16 <|amethyst> undead slime molds! 00:08:17 giant amoebas don't allow zombies 00:08:21 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 00:09:25 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:10:46 Oh, I misread? 00:10:49 (I am distracted) 00:11:12 I wonder about vampire mosquitos, I allowed zombies (besides spectrals/simulacra) for consistency with other insects, but there's a question how do they look like, and whether they have usable flesh. 00:11:30 DracoOmega: M_NO_ZOMBIE 00:11:43 Oh, then what was the point of giving them a zombie size, then? 00:11:50 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: simulacra 00:11:55 Ah, okay 00:12:14 That seems far more sensible to me ^^; 00:12:27 ice sculpture! 00:12:48 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-928-gfca2993 (34) 00:13:10 As for vampire mosquitos, personally I had sort of assumed that zombiesque undead monster just couldn't be reanimated again. Something about one-time-per-corpse or something, I guess? Though I guess they probably can already be used in twisted res? 00:13:46 I thought mosquitos were ALREADY vampires 00:13:57 maybe vampire is just a put-down 00:13:59 Well, generally they're not quite so regenerative with their eating :P 00:14:16 DracoOmega: well, then why they drop corpses? 00:14:17 <|amethyst> I took it as vampire mosquitoes being not zombiesque created undead but "natural" undead 00:14:32 or rather, why do vampires do not? 00:14:34 <|amethyst> zombies can't be raised again because destroying the zombie means destroying the corpse 00:14:49 <|amethyst> kilobyte: vampires burn to ash/turn to mist/whatever when they die 00:15:00 right... 00:15:11 I still don't follow why vampire mosquitos would be undead at all; vampire bats aren't ... 00:15:17 so I wonder if vampire mosquitos should just do the same 00:15:22 <|amethyst> SamB: vampire bats are a real thing 00:15:24 Well, they have been undead for a lot time, and this does have relevant gameplay consequences 00:15:38 <|amethyst> oh 00:15:42 <|amethyst> in-game they are undead 00:15:48 Yes 00:15:58 vampire bat (14b) | Spd: 30 | HD: 3 | HP: 6-15 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Dam: 305(vampiric) | 07undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(4), 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 56 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 00:15:58 %??vampire bat 00:16:03 oh, huh 00:16:05 what do you know 00:16:22 unknown monster: "vampire zombie" 00:16:22 %??vampire zombie 00:16:23 Could just make vampire mosquitoes not drop corpses, I guess 00:16:28 unknown monster: "vampire mosquito zombie" 00:16:28 %??vampire mosquito zombie 00:16:32 vampire mosquito (07y) | Spd: 19 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Dam: 1305(vampiric) | 07undead, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20), 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 179 | Sz: little | Int: plant. 00:16:32 %??vampire mosquito 00:16:38 SamB: if you are sure about something, yet have to check to be proven wrong, means something is confusing 00:16:44 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:17:11 <|amethyst> kilobyte: the confusing thing is that someone named a real animal "vampire bat" 00:17:18 hehehe 00:17:45 like "ghost moth" and so on, also a real thing 00:18:02 at least it's not "spectral moth" 00:18:07 right? 00:18:17 how dare real animals interfere with fiction! 00:18:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:19:07 <|amethyst> kilobyte: in the case of vampire bats, the fiction came first :) 00:19:18 is that so 00:19:24 SamB: well, spectral/simulacra ghost moths are on the "not uncontroversial" part of the list 00:19:29 <|amethyst> "The Oxford English Dictionary records their folkloric use in English from 1734 and the zoological not until 1774." 00:19:46 I kind of think moths could just not drop corpses, like butterflies don't 00:20:11 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 00:20:24 what if you spear them to the wall 00:21:21 SamB: every single RL animal drops corpses, it kind has something to do with physically existing. 00:21:35 yeah 00:22:01 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I'd say if moths don't then bees etc shouldn't either 00:22:07 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:22:15 Yes, I don't see why moths shouldn't drop corpses 00:22:40 how many chunks should they be? 00:22:54 Well, they currently DO drop corpses, you know 00:23:49 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:24:03 <|amethyst> ghost moths are described as "enormous"; the others are not 00:24:40 <|amethyst> butterflies are "large"... maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Alexandra's_birdwing 00:24:59 <|amethyst> (wingspan of up to 31 cm) 00:25:20 hrm, you have a nasty habit of breaking my ingenious solutions with actual arguments 00:25:39 how big are giant killer bees 00:25:43 <|amethyst> still less than half an ounce 00:25:45 does it say that on wikipedia? 00:25:46 perhaps this could be hand-waved as "flimsy"? 00:25:59 kilobyte: What exactly is the problem you are trying to solve here? 00:26:16 31 cm wingspan doesn't sound big enough to eat, for a butter-for 00:26:19 er, butter-form 00:26:44 <|amethyst> SamB: big enough for a felid to eat, but yeah 00:27:10 DracoOmega: that some corpses don't allow spells working on them for no obvious reasons. Players don't see "oh, this creature has a ghost_demon struct". 00:27:21 What does this have to do with moths, though? They don't 00:27:33 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-929-g9d8ad9c: Use a delayed_action_fineff for Kirke and Pikel death (Mantis #5306) 10(88 seconds ago, 3 files, 48+ 11-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9d8ad9cd5d22 00:28:18 hmm right, moth of suppression zombies would be boring but most zombies are, and ghost moths at least hit like an utility train 00:28:26 (used to hit like a heavy freight one) 00:28:36 And does the ghost_demon struct even matter for ugly things here? Since they will lose their attack flavor and resists ANYWAY 00:29:00 So the base monster definition should cover their zombiness just fine? 00:29:06 that was AFAIK the reason they couldn't be raised before 00:29:26 yes, but I only recently checked that this does actually work 00:29:31 -!- blackcustard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:32:23 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:29 -!- Jevouse has quit [] 00:33:28 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:33:55 * mumra realises delayed_action_fineff doesn't mean what it sounds like 00:34:26 it's a daction that runs as a fineff, not a fineff that is delayed ... 00:34:53 (this would clearly be confusing whatever i do) 00:35:45 <|amethyst> what about "daction_fineff"? 00:36:23 "delayed_action_fineff" sounds like redundant redundancy 00:36:33 since final effects are already delayed actions 00:36:38 <|amethyst> mumra: where is this anyway? 00:37:01 kilobyte: i know :P 00:37:11 daction_fineff would be better yes 00:37:24 |amethyst: it's in that last commit 00:37:41 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:37:59 dactions aren't aren't actually delayed the first time they run, so it's a fineff that triggers a daction 00:38:27 <|amethyst> ah, I missed that commit 00:43:38 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-929-g9d8ad9c 00:47:44 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:44 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 00:47:44 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: CAO has telnet again. Let rax know if there are problems. | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ?cszo, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious! 00:48:25 |amethyst: does "monster" have a #define or such I can check? 00:49:39 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 00:49:42 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:50:37 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:50:38 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:29 <|amethyst> kilobyte: not currently (it just does ${MAKE} -C $(CRAWL_PATH) DEBUG=$(DEBUG) TILES= NO_LUA_BINDINGS=y) 00:51:44 <|amethyst> kilobyte: what do you need to for exactly? 00:52:47 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-930-gc3f788d: Fix punctuation. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c3f788d8aad1 00:52:47 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-931-gdce090d: Add minor cosmetic fix. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dce090dbc69a 00:53:17 <|amethyst> kilobyte: previously I've needed to do that because something was not initialized, so I checked whether the something was initialized 00:53:22 <|amethyst> e.g. 00:53:27 <|amethyst> %git 164869b 00:53:38 03|amethyst * 0.12-a0-1434-g164869b: Don't crash 'monster' when monsters flash the view. 10(5 months ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=164869b0072d 00:53:38 <|amethyst> and the database stuff 00:53:51 -!- odiv_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:52 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:55 -!- Sepik121 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:06 I'm introducing a new flag, M_CANT_SPAWN, and I want mapdef to reject it 00:54:21 but that would break monster for such entries 00:54:42 -!- odiv has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 00:54:51 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:57:00 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 00:57:13 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:57:57 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:59:19 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:01:24 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:03 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:06:56 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:08:03 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:08:08 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 01:09:38 <|amethyst> I could have monster reset that flag from the monster entry before spawning it 01:09:49 <|amethyst> btw, should get_monster_data really be IMMUTABLE ? 01:10:34 <|amethyst> it uses the value of the global mon_entry[mc] so shouldn't it be PURE instead? 01:12:22 it's semantics not implementation 01:12:35 <|amethyst> because mon_entry doesn't change? 01:12:44 yeah 01:12:49 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:13:24 "immutable" means it will always give the same result, and has no side effects 01:13:33 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:01 "pure" allows depending on mutable globals, etc 01:14:12 <|amethyst> kilobyte: that's not how the gcc docs describe it 01:14:16 <|amethyst> they speak in implementation terms 01:14:46 that's for suggesting the flag, not actually using it 01:14:56 <|amethyst> Note that a function that has pointer arguments and examines the 01:14:57 <|amethyst> data pointed to must _not_ be declared `const'. 01:15:27 <|amethyst> I guess that's not quite the same thing, never mind 01:15:37 I'm no expert but it has been discussed several times before: what the compiler wants is a guarantee that calls of the function can be optimized away 01:15:59 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:16:20 <|amethyst> my worry is that a future version of gcc will say "aha, I can call this once at static initialization time" 01:16:38 <|amethyst> before mon_entry is initialized 01:17:34 <|amethyst> I guess in practice such an optimization is not likely to ever be useful 01:18:50 <|amethyst> kilobyte: so, would you prefer that monster set a #define so crawl can detect it, or that it clear M_CANT_SPAWN from the monster? 01:19:05 <|amethyst> s/the monster/&entry/ 01:19:51 -!- odiv_ is now known as odiv 01:21:08 pushed what I mean 01:21:20 -!- Vizerr has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:21:31 right now "monster" will fail to show such monsters 01:21:34 @??hell lord 01:21:34 hell lord (11&) | Spd: 10 | HD: 19 | HP: 139-213 | AC/EV: 1/2 | Dam: 5 | 05demonic, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(126), 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4171 | Sz: Large | Int: high. 01:22:00 -!- Wolf_Crawl has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 01:22:18 hmm, not sure if this even matters if they're strict dummies 01:22:44 - M_SPELLCASTER | M_NO_ZOMBIE | M_ACTUAL_SPELLS, 01:22:44 + M_NO_ZOMBIE | M_SPELLCASTER | M_ACTUAL_SPELLS, 01:22:59 "Add minor cosmetic fix." -- what does this fix? 01:23:06 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-932-g3b50b19: A monster flag M_CANT_SPAWN, to mark dummy monsters. 10(39 minutes ago, 7 files, 28+ 26-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3b50b19d909d 01:23:06 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-933-g18758ee: Reject attempts to place dummy monsters. 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=18758ee4e4b2 01:26:13 <|amethyst> kilobyte: makes it fit with the other 'n's I guess 01:26:27 <|amethyst> mon-data.h seems pretty inconsistent about ordering 01:26:35 maybe an ordering based on the enum values of each of those? 01:27:41 <|amethyst> Zannick: wouldn't last long unless there were code to check it 01:28:22 I don't think that keeping it ordered really buys us much here, anyway? 01:28:36 It's not like most monsters have so many flags that stuff will get lost in them 01:31:01 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:31:12 <|amethyst> btw, why does giant newt belong to the giant lizard genus? 01:35:17 -!- doome has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:36:53 unknown monster: "removed MONS_BUMBLEBEE" 01:36:53 <|amethyst> %??removed MONS_BUMBLEBEE 01:37:03 <|amethyst> aww 01:38:50 can't place dummy monster: "hell lord" 01:38:50 <|amethyst> %??hell lord 01:39:03 -!- ahahahah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:39:07 <|amethyst> honestly I don't see a problem with dummies being unavailable 01:41:19 <|amethyst> does anything but their name, glyph, and colour ever matter? 01:44:39 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:44:41 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-933-g18758ee 01:48:49 -!- HircUser has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:57 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 01:50:32 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:55:40 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: what about a t command that dismissed all your friendly (not charmed) summons? 01:55:52 <|amethyst> including demonic guardians 01:56:00 That wouldn't really help, since they continuously spawn 01:56:07 You can't stop every second turn to save a random imp 01:56:55 <|amethyst> you could have it suppress demonic guardians for some time 01:57:04 I mean, the current situation is probably better than it used to be 01:57:06 <|amethyst> could make it an okawaru ability instead 01:57:12 <|amethyst> oh, definitely 01:57:41 <|amethyst> but some players want the high-level ones, because they don't die as often 01:57:41 I am not sure it would be so terrible to have Oka just not mind them dying, but I can see some people not liking that alternative 01:59:04 There was talk earlier about making demonic guardian ITSELF toggleable, but the thing is that Okawaru is probably the only situation you'd ever want it off for 01:59:16 Since even if they aren't HELPING, they aren't usually hurting, either 01:59:26 <|amethyst> could make the summon-dismissing thing an okawaru ability 02:00:20 -!- Beneather has quit [Quit: Beneather] 02:00:25 I tend to think it wouldn't really be helpful in practice 02:01:15 Since I am having a hard time thinking that it would really make any other kind of ally play worth bothering to do. Allies die relatively easily, and dismissing all of them to save one when it's near death (which it probably will get to quickly) seems to defeat the point of summoning stuff in the first place 02:01:51 There tends to be less of solitary strong allies where that kind of preserving would be practical 02:02:25 So does that turn it into mostly a 'sometimes spam to stop demonic guardian' and 'undo an unID'd ?summoning'? 02:02:34 Note that the penalty for an unid'd ?summoning is actually pretty mild 02:02:35 <|amethyst> hm 02:02:47 Like, the only problem with demonic guardian's piety loss is that it keeps happening all the time 02:02:56 The hit for an individual ally death is nothing to be upset about 02:03:03 <|amethyst> yeah, so a toggle would make more sense 02:03:28 <|amethyst> but it only makes sense for okawaru (and Ely if some people get their way) 02:04:01 <|amethyst> but I guess ely would make them hostile anyway 02:04:04 Well, I can see some people prefering to, say, turn off imp spam at lower levels, especially if they were using ranged attacks 02:04:24 It may not always be necessarily better, but I can see people doing it 02:04:42 I don't think I am opposed to the idea of a toggle myself 02:05:12 is there something wrong with oka's current ds handling? 02:05:13 <|amethyst> it would be kind of easy to forget that you turned it off 02:05:16 apart from lack of messages 02:05:43 elliott: I am not convinced there is, but this other option wouldn't really bother me either 02:05:46 <|amethyst> elliott: it seems kind of sad to essentially lose one of your facets 02:06:04 |amethyst: Well, probably most people will still keep it off most of the time if they're with Oka anyway 02:06:18 |amethyst: many people would consider being saved from dg a blessing! 02:06:27 anyway you can pick not okawaru if you're interested in ally play 02:06:32 But demonic guardian is great fun! :P 02:06:42 But yeah, I don't necessarily see a problem with it not working under Oka 02:06:45 in fact, I have a prediction: some people will go okawaru just to turn off demonic guardian 02:06:58 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: at least some players have suggested that high-level guardians are worth the piety loss because they're likely to time out before they die 02:07:00 Do people really find it that annoying? I have mostly seen it spoken of in positive terms 02:07:14 i haven't seen anyone like the imp kind 02:07:17 <|amethyst> s/piety/potential &/ 02:07:19 |amethyst: Yes, I didn't mean that having the high-level version on would always be bad, but I expect many people would leave it off anyway 02:07:36 elliott: Well, no. But I think that's mostly because you know it could be so much more powerful, yet still isn't yet 02:07:56 well I have seen several people also complain about the executioner kind because it clears lair for them or whatever :P 02:08:03 Tier 2 retains usefulness for a lot longer. Imps are very quickly nothing be ocassional one-turn obstacles in corridors, maybe 02:08:07 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: yeah, I guess default off with Oka would make the most sense, and if you went to the effort of turning it on, you'll notice it 02:08:16 elliott: Well, people complain about lots of things 02:08:24 this is true 02:08:26 but some more than others 02:08:30 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:38 And do you even get Lair executioners with it these days? 02:08:41 Since the timing changes? 02:08:48 yeah I don't know 02:08:48 I wasn't even sure you COULD anymore 02:09:13 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: you could if you used a bizarre branch order, but then you expect to annihilate lair without trying 02:09:19 Well, yes 02:09:25 I meant by 'normal Lair level' 02:09:41 Obviously it is possible to not enter Lair until xl 27 :P 02:09:53 orb run slime 02:10:04 <|amethyst> FR: DsMu 02:10:31 <|amethyst> "You no longer need to eat" tier 3 facet 02:10:57 <|amethyst> or even "You are undead" 02:11:18 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:30 -!- werewolf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:18:22 -!- bigdumbman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:04 -!- tigertrap has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:16 is there an unbreathing ds mut? 02:23:04 -!- bigdumbman has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:23:25 No, but unbreathing doesn't really add much on its own 02:23:58 <|amethyst> mumra: no (there is a mut used for some races, but Ds don't get it and it has probability 0) 02:24:26 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:24:34 <|amethyst> and what DracoOmega said 02:25:02 <|amethyst> there are already five forms (plus jelly) that give you unbreathing 02:25:17 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:19 It's basically immunity to meph and resistance to primal wave and curare impact damage or something 02:25:24 <|amethyst> yeah 02:25:38 Oh, and the water damage resistance doesn't even work right currently, I think 02:25:40 <|amethyst> that said, that's not a *terrible* level 1 for the facet 02:25:44 I forget what it was I fxed 02:25:57 -!- tigertrap has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:26:04 <|amethyst> it's not really more minor than, say, conserve potions 02:26:15 I would say that it definitely is 02:26:27 <|amethyst> hm 02:26:28 -!- kai_ is now known as kaiza 02:26:29 Most of the effects that it prevents are stuff you almost never run into 02:26:35 <|amethyst> I forgot conserve potions stack 02:26:35 Whereas stuff breaks your potions all over the place 02:26:40 Even if it didn't 02:26:41 it'd also let you walk in deep water presumably 02:26:50 <|amethyst> mumra: unbreathing alone doesn't do that 02:27:02 Yeah, that's mostly grey draconian weirdness 02:27:04 <|amethyst> mumra: otherwise mummies and statues and liches could 02:28:39 Been so long ago now that I fixed that, I forget what the problem even was. Something about it being totally inconsistant... 02:28:44 In any case, I guess tomorrow I do final rebasing and squashing and then push and (hopefully don't) break the universe :D 02:29:27 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: oh 02:29:38 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: just noticed you're still not in the dev wiki 02:29:45 Oh yeah 02:29:47 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: you can leave off your real name there if you prefer 02:30:13 I meant to do that, and then forgot. Repeatedly. 02:33:02 -!- rphillips has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 02:33:02 Probably too tired to write anything now, but will try to put a blurb up tomorrow 02:33:40 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:36:49 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:09 -!- Alexor has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:37:16 -!- GuraKKa1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:48 And on that note, I am off to bed! 02:37:59 <|amethyst> night 02:38:03 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:38:06 <|amethyst> I should do the same 02:39:49 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:45:03 -!- dupo has quit [] 02:45:44 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:49:53 -!- noobcanoe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:50:34 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59:24 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59:51 -!- Melum_ has quit [Quit: Was eaten by a grue.] 03:04:12 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 03:04:43 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:10:28 -!- gvdm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:49 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:13:49 -!- Dr_Ke has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:14:14 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:19:29 -!- ketsa has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Pale Moon 20.1/20130518142809]] 03:23:55 -!- kaiza has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:24:25 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:25:28 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:28:12 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:39:33 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:46:40 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:46:52 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 03:53:27 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:56:39 -!- Aegis has quit [Client Quit] 04:00:07 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:00:28 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:02:45 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 04:07:26 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:09:26 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 04:14:39 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:21:28 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:28:24 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:31:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31:13 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:32:04 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:58 -!- Blazinghand___ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:34:01 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:34:57 -!- gvdm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:27 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:42:46 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:49:22 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:51:23 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:56:28 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:59:00 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-921-g3f17ee7 05:02:59 -!- Vizerr has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:03:17 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:06:04 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:09:09 -!- rwbarton has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:12:55 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:13:04 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:13:49 -!- sym has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:15:25 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:22:22 -!- Stendarr|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:24:37 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:26:19 -!- gvdm has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:30:15 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:38:21 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:38:28 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:42:38 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:34 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:45:28 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:45:29 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:48:08 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:49:39 -!- Bloax is now known as Bloax|zzz 05:53:47 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:55:02 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 05:57:01 -!- Sepik121 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:59:55 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:13:07 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:13:29 -!- FatRatKnight has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:31 -!- hurdos has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:20:10 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:37 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:22:34 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 06:22:51 Mostly been lurking GDD for a bit. My own suggestion for Poison Magic: Poisonous Wisp Form. Like the wisp form, but with fewer drawbacks, and more poison themed. Might step into Necromutation's territory a bit, but at least the idea would help versus rPois enemies by making yourself some kind of defensive monster. 06:23:13 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:23:16 -!- Stendarr|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:23:35 As for why I'm not posting at the forum, I do not desire to register for something I do not foresee a long-term use for. 06:23:51 -!- radinms_ is now known as radinms 06:27:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:27:09 -!- Wehk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:20 -!- Wehk has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:14 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:34:26 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:49 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:41:07 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:43:27 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 06:48:31 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:55:17 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:57:55 -!- Writ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:58:37 -!- localhost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:00:02 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:02:09 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:02:19 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:02:55 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:07:05 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:31 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:11:02 -!- Wah has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:14:10 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:15:06 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:23:22 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:25:45 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:27:17 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:30:09 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:31:49 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:59 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:32:26 -!- gvdm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:45 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:21 a fairly low level defensive form could be interesting 07:37:09 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:38:52 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:37 -!- Bloax|zzz has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:44:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:45:33 -!- Gorice has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:47:40 alefury: porcupine ends up totally sucking later on, perhaps it could be repurposed? 07:47:49 needs to be thoroughly rebalanced, at least 07:48:17 I got polymorphed on D:1, everything exploded on the first attack 07:49:07 -!- ilyak has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:50:07 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:57:59 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:01:06 FatRatKnight: what's wrong with spider form for EV (and poison attack) and ice form for rPois? you can get both castable by the time you're facing any real threating poisoning enemies 08:01:16 I was hoping for a way to flavor my idea into becoming high level. But then again, what can a wisp do? More wild thoughts would be a blink from poison cloud to poison cloud. 08:02:58 Mostly, I just see that there is a skill that has no useful reason to reach level 27. 08:03:08 well it's more of a tmut spell with poison slapped on, than a high level poison spell 08:05:04 I can see that. I just like the idea of being a sentient death cloud. 08:05:10 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:06:42 If the idea has little potential, I see no reason to defend it. Still, thanks for the response. 08:07:39 theres already statue form for high level sturdiness 08:07:50 it still needs to be possible for monsters to hurt you, or come with a serious downside, otherwise it's completely imbalanced 08:08:18 i assumed it would just have very high ev, kind of like spider form 08:08:27 -!- wheals_ has quit [Client Quit] 08:08:29 insubstantial wisp (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 6-18 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1206(blink self) | 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 80 | Sp: blink | Sz: tiny | Int: plant. 08:08:29 %??insubstantial wisp 08:08:32 or that 08:09:15 hm, i guess that would overlap way too much with spider form :/ 08:09:50 could make it level 6 and let it spawn poison clouds pretty much at will, at the cost of disabling casting 08:09:56 i was taking the idea of turning into a sentient cloud a bit more literally, but i have no idea how that would work mechanically ;) 08:10:03 ??swarm 08:10:04 I don't have a page labeled swarm in my learndb. 08:10:05 hm 08:10:22 Eronarn was working on a thingy, but it doesnt work and is on hold or discontinued 08:10:42 There's a lot of resistances with the wisp... 08:10:55 i know about swarms of course, have discussed it with eronarn numerous times 08:11:17 but *becoming* a swarm is different ... 08:12:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:15:34 How much overlap with spider form? Poisonous melee? EV? Anything else? 08:16:01 well, those are the two main features of spider form. also speed of course. 08:16:13 Ah. 08:16:30 -!- cr4zyd has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:17:22 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 08:19:01 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:21:28 The wisp by itself comes with a potent package of resistances. Transforming to this at will seems strong, at a glance. Spam summons, transform, ... Eh, just saw a way to potentially break things... 08:22:06 I seriously doubt you have ever been in wisp form, it is incredibly bad late on (in 0.12 at least) to the point of making death very likely 08:22:19 That is true. 08:22:24 which is less bad for a bad form than as a basis of a high-level spell 08:22:26 I haven't. 08:22:40 (I haven't either, but I've seen enough games end in horror) 08:24:32 Being restricted from the inventory sounds really, really painful. 08:24:51 i think the idea of transforming into a malevolent and spreading cloud sounds a lot more fun if you don't try and call it a wisp, at least it's potentially a more interesting delivery method for clouds than aim & fire 08:25:01 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:28:23 but i'm imagining that as something that only lasts a small number of turns, enough time to spread some clouds, but you can't move very quickly so it's no good as an "everything immunity" escape spell 08:29:33 Then, once it runs out, guess what sort of environment you're standing in? 08:30:29 -!- sbanwart_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:33:04 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:33:34 Starting to see the difficulties of design, but some of the fun that goes with it, too. 08:35:47 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:03 Any interesting possibility of a semi-controlled blink to a poison cloud? (Dissolve your will and reform it elsewhere...) 08:37:59 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:39:04 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:10 Doing this in conjunction with Poisonous Cloud means you're using a separate level 6 spell and a turn to cast it to do this sort of blink. Your own clouds produced by the form will usually mean you just went back to where you started. 08:39:49 it'd probably have to be random 08:40:07 i could see players laying clouds before every battle, as a potential escape 08:41:49 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:01 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:47:16 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 08:48:06 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-rc1] 08:49:14 i certainly would like more reasons to train poison high (although not everyone even agrees with this) 08:49:31 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Quit: Wrong button bad with computers] 08:50:50 the most promising ideas from that thread seem to be the plague thing, and maybe this idea about a self-poisoning buff, but that has a lot of overlap with deaths door 08:53:15 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:57 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:00:34 It's probably very hard to justify ever training poison high if they don't get something on the same level as Ice/Fire/Air/Earth have, obviously 09:01:05 -!- eb has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:01:43 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:01:57 We do have reasons to get most other skills to 27 for one thing or another. Not so much for Poison, and therefore going to 27 there is almost strictly a disadvantage. What sort of sweet treat can we put up there in the list of high level spells, has been a difficult question to answer. 09:02:15 -!- vogonpoet has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:02:42 SwissStopwatch: hexes/charms/necromancy don't have these level 9 nukes but it's still desirable to train them higher than poison at least 09:02:49 Necro has good L7-8 09:03:03 and it shares one of those with Charms, even 09:03:39 and zero of them with transmutations 09:03:51 yes, I didn't say anything about that.... 09:03:58 just clarifying for the viewers at home!! 09:04:22 Hexes tops out at 7 with Darkness I think, which is an effect I like but is frequently hard to use... but getting high spellpower is a reason to train hexes for several of the spells 09:04:55 And since those aren't dual-school... it doesn't have the problem Poison has (which is that you should just get Conjurations instead mostly) 09:05:29 charms gets trained higher because haste exists and armour exists, at least 09:05:54 Although due to quirks with Invis and Haste, it can get inconvenient if you end up with too much Hexes/Charms 09:06:00 because ugh contam 09:07:25 at any rate Poison is pretty unique in not having a compelling reason (other than titles) to get a lot of it 09:08:19 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:08:55 -!- sbanwart_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:08:56 Since I don't know this.... the obvious solution is to just give it a big damage spell at a high level too, but that's almost certainly been considered and not done 09:09:08 But I don't know why that is? 09:09:45 I'm sure there's a reason, and probably knowing it is helpful 09:10:41 its not so easy to come up with cool new ideas 09:11:01 poison storm would be kind of boring 09:11:36 So the main reason is just that the obvious solution is so boring that it's not worth doing? 09:12:07 i think poison is pretty good as it stands personally 09:12:21 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:21 it already has poison arrow and pcloud and its status makes VM different 09:12:31 maybe some sort of cone-targeted instakill breath. chance to instakill anything that does not resist poison based on HD and spellpower, damage to everything that resisted 09:12:39 i agree with elliott though 09:12:40 i think making certain less-than-great spells (like otr) better is a more important direction for improvement 09:12:45 also remove meph :P 09:13:15 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:08 clearly the biggest problem with any sort of instadeath thing is that you just know that a unique will turn up using it within a couple versions 09:14:20 no 09:14:29 well, okay, jorgrun 09:14:31 but other than that... 09:14:32 exactly. 09:14:34 -!- Krag has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:04 Although I guess instadeath is just a least favorite mechanic of mine in everything ever 09:15:17 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 270 seconds] 09:15:19 so you dont like hexes or stabbing? 09:15:49 I actually don't, but I also don't consider them instant in the same way I mean 09:16:58 Actually, I guess I don't dislike them so much as I almost always have something -else- I want to do on characters that would use them 09:17:09 -!- radinms has quit [] 09:17:26 Lugonu's Banish is closer to the instadeath I mean 09:17:37 the instakill part about the poison breath was mostly for flavor 09:18:03 yes, deadly poison and etc 09:18:15 it should do damage close to storm spells, so most stuff that doesnt resist poison would die instantly anyway from the damage 09:18:41 I guess the one thing about instakills is that they're not really unfair for players to do to the giant swarm of generic monsters 09:19:06 but going the other direction is (although not as much traditionally in certain kins of roguelikes, I suppose) 09:19:15 kinds* 09:21:23 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:10 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:23:09 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:49 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:32:09 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:35:12 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 09:39:21 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 09:40:43 -!- kryft has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:42:59 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:49:39 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 09:50:13 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:50:51 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:51:57 HarmlessChicken (L24 DDFi) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 110: ZotDef: monster fire elemental failed to pathfind to (39,43) (the Orb) (Zot (ZotDef)) 09:55:53 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:59:07 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59:10 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:58 -!- clouded_ is now known as st_ 10:02:47 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:53 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:05:06 -!- Koolguydude has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 10:06:49 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:25 -!- BecN has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 10:09:17 -!- kunwon1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:17 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:11:19 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:11:35 -!- vogonpoet has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:11:48 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:13:36 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:17:46 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:18:31 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:20:39 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:42 -!- floatboth has quit [Quit: floatboth] 10:24:40 -!- FatRatKnight has left ##crawl-dev 10:27:00 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:52 wizmode could use a "reload from save" or "stop without messing with the save file" button ... besides just killing crawl 10:28:03 -!- Datul has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:28:55 -!- Blade- has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:32:01 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:34:33 -!- lessens has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:36:22 <|amethyst> blackcustard: it does have a "crash now" button 10:36:36 <|amethyst> blackcustard: &^c 10:37:19 that helps 10:37:25 easier than tabbing to task manager 10:39:31 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:39:35 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:06 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 10:41:46 <|amethyst> reload from save would be nice but I'm not sure how hard it would be to implement 10:42:02 <|amethyst> kilobyte might have suggestions 10:43:33 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:44:53 not any faster than ending the game and restoring 10:45:13 <|amethyst> how difficult would it be to make a command do that? 10:45:52 <|amethyst> I guess you could set a global flag and have that work like restart_after_game but automatically pick the right game 10:45:53 it's a matter of setting some flag to have restart-after-game return to it 10:46:02 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:46:03 preferably with a "save without exiting" command 10:50:28 -!- lordfrikk has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 24.0a1/20130525062525]] 10:53:37 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:54:52 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:55 -!- simmarine has quit [Client Quit] 10:56:48 so this is interesting ... crawl_state.which_mon_acting() and crawl_state.is_mon_acting() ... does anybody know anything about these? 10:57:05 -!- Sorbius has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:24 since the return values of those functions seem to be wrong, at least in a lot of cases where you'd expected them to be meaningful 10:57:35 and in fact is_mon_acting is never used 10:57:43 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 10:57:57 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:58:02 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 10:58:09 and which_mon_acting is used only once (in blink, to check whether it's a jumping spider, and if so change the verb and don't draw purple clouds - this is the thing that's failing) 10:59:17 and these functions are implemented by a fairly complex stack that's supposed to know which monster is currently acting, which seems fairly over-the-top for this one purpose? 11:00:46 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:24 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:50 <|amethyst> it's also used for crash dumps 11:02:10 <|amethyst> but that's in class game_state so it uses monact directly 11:04:01 <|amethyst> flush_comes_into_view also seems to use it 11:04:12 -!- Grunt_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:03 -!- browncustard has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:15 yeah, just saw that 11:06:28 apparently that's why it was implemented (and the only thing it's ever really been used for) 11:06:46 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:06:51 i guess since it worked for that purpose nobody ever noticed that it's not really useful most of the time :P 11:07:26 <|amethyst> the jumping spider thing should definitely be done differently 11:07:32 <|amethyst> not sure how, but 11:07:34 -!- nooodl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:08:07 in this particular case, when a monster is casting spells, the mon_act was already destructed at the end of pre_monster_move 11:08:25 -!- paxed has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:08:32 -!- dexap is now known as paxed 11:09:12 (my feeling is that the comes into view messages should be handled differently as well, this seems like a fairly roundabout way to handle that; but i don't know what the better way would be, although this is tied into meatsprint/vault-defined monster bugs as well...) 11:09:59 <|amethyst> I thought the meatsprint problem was just that we can't redefine the species or genus 11:10:25 -!- phyphor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:34 <|amethyst> so when monsters get combined by species for announcement, it doesn't match their overridden name 11:13:49 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:16:38 mumra: that blinking spider hack needs to die 11:17:01 mumra: if anything else causes it to blink, you still get told that "it jumps" 11:17:11 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- ebarrett has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- blackcustard has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- edlothiol has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- Surr has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- atomicthumbs has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- ahpla has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- bakaflockaflame has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- phyphor has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:12 -!- Grunt has quit [*.net *.split] 11:17:39 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 11:20:20 -!- bmfx_ is now known as bmfx 11:21:00 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:31 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:24:16 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:33:25 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:35:13 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:36:59 kilobyte: so it should get a new spell or something? 11:37:42 kilobyte: except that it doesn't even work for the spider itself jumping, you get told that it blinks and it leaves purple clouds... 11:38:12 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:19 SamB: rather than implement two new spells (since there's both BLINK_CLOSE and BLINK_AWAY) i was just going to feed in a parameter earlier in the chain 11:38:31 and maybe add monster::jump_to 11:38:39 to use instead of monster::blink_to 11:39:53 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:20 this started simply as an attempt to stop it blinking through grates but you know how it is when you start looking at one thing and start spotting other things ... 11:42:13 that's what i'm doing right now over in the trove's lua code :S 11:42:22 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:44:04 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:44:21 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:53 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:19 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 11:49:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:52:41 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:54:43 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:56:44 -!- Guest81510 is now known as magicpoints 12:00:15 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:59 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:03:07 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:04:26 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.12.1-43-gbc5e171 12:04:57 -!- ragingrage has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:08:42 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:11:17 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:13:05 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:15:08 -!- rkd has quit [] 12:17:28 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:20:07 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-933-g18758ee (34) 12:20:19 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:21:09 -!- noobcanoe has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:21:32 -!- ackack has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:22:43 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:24:42 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27:51 -!- ackack has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:29:56 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:19 -!- ahahahah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:37:20 -!- noobcanoe_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:38:15 -!- Grunt_ is now known as Grunt 12:39:59 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:19 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:42:40 -!- gvdm has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:43:07 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:44:15 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:45:25 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:46:31 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:47:27 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:22 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:50:02 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:53:32 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:40 -!- Surr_ is now known as Surr 12:58:04 -!- sildraith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:58:49 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:59:16 -!- Jevouse has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:08 anyone else having problems compiling tiles 13:01:12 alefury: swarms worked pretty well, fwiw 13:01:35 oh, i thought they werent finished in some way 13:01:41 <|amethyst> Jevouse: what OS? 13:01:48 they definitely aren't finished, but i had a prototype done 13:01:49 Win7 13:01:58 <|amethyst> Jevouse: what's the error? 13:02:00 i wasn't getting any ridiculous crashes or anything 13:02:36 after i pulled and built the executable keeps not being tiles 13:02:39 it'd be cool if someone wanted to go implement breathe bees... 13:02:49 <|amethyst> Jevouse: how are you building? 13:02:52 msysgit 13:02:58 <|amethyst> Jevouse: I mean, what command? 13:03:05 make Tiles=y 13:03:07 though the code has the potential for a lot of bugs just because crawl's codebase is sad 13:03:23 you need TILES i think 13:03:23 <|amethyst> Jevouse: it's case-sensitive 13:03:28 <|amethyst> Jevouse: make TILES=y 13:03:42 eh? 13:03:54 <|amethyst> make is a unix tool, unix tools are usually case-sensitive 13:04:07 ah i see 13:04:49 thanks 13:05:55 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:11:19 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:11:37 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:12:52 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:12 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:07 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:18:37 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:20:45 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:24:58 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:36 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:25:44 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:57 * SamB wishes for a lua debugger ... 13:27:53 -!- Gorice has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:28:44 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29:43 okay, "force_more_messages += timed_portal:" doesn't seem to work right for messages encountered during auto-explore ? 13:30:44 <|amethyst> SamB: do you have to set a runrest_stop_message too? 13:30:58 not yet 13:31:13 but I'd expect the more prompt to override that 13:31:39 <|amethyst> do you have a delay of -1, or 0 or more? 13:31:51 this is offline 13:32:02 so >=0 13:32:39 well, I guess I could have put -1 in my rc ... but I find that disorienting for autoexplore ... 13:33:14 <|amethyst> hm 13:33:52 <|amethyst> I was thinking that force_more not working might kind of make sense with -1, but not a positive number 13:34:10 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34:34 hmm, X Ctrl-F seems a bit glitchy display-wise 13:35:44 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 13:35:49 it doesn't work with runrest_stop_messages set too, either; it stops but still no prompt ... 13:36:11 <|amethyst> hrm 13:36:52 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:09 hmm, why just {god gift} and not, say, {Trog gift} ... 13:38:19 -!- sbanwart_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:39:07 <|amethyst> {the Shining One gift} is a little long 13:39:11 true 13:39:15 should say TSO 13:39:22 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:39:23 i think i'm finally done ripping the trove lua apart ... now if only i could rip apart this stupidly commit. but everything is all mixed together :( 13:39:31 large* 13:39:40 <|amethyst> SamB: you'd also have to say "Kiku" and "Yred" probably :) 13:39:46 yeah 13:40:00 probably I'd say Ely too 13:40:19 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:21 <|amethyst> browncustard: IMO if the intermediate stages wouldn't compile or work right, it's not worth splitting it 13:40:52 i agree, especially when it comes to compiling 13:40:52 browncustard: What prevents you from breaking it apart? It's just tangled code? 13:41:19 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:41:40 <|amethyst> browncustard: well, when lua is involved, "compiling" includes running the game 13:41:42 my fixes are tangled. i think i can split it apart, just need to think about it a bit. i'll get two pieces out of it 13:41:58 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:43:44 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:34 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:47:32 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:28 -!- Blazinghand___ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:29 -!- Egglet has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:55:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:59:37 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:00:33 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04:03 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:06:29 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:42 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:43 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:11:26 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-934-g7ec7b53: Fix setting profane servitors' god to Yred; MONS_ANGEL is their genus, not MONS_PROFANE_SERVITOR. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7ec7b53325a4 14:16:07 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:19:07 -!- santiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:34 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:22:45 -!- phyphor_ is now known as phyphor 14:24:13 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:29:37 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:29:41 <|amethyst> so, if anyone has a pre-0.11 config and has been ignoring the warning about "list_option = foo" changing behaviour to set instead of append, they are about to be sad 14:31:08 -!- jday_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:30 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:36:26 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:42:30 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:44:37 -!- SteampunkDuck has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:47:17 -!- vogonpoet has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:47:57 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 14:51:52 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-935-gd8c8611: Make list_opt = foo reset the list, not append. 10(21 minutes ago, 5 files, 46+ 126-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d8c861177ea6 14:51:52 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-936-g163709b: Simplify an options guide example. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=163709b89dc5 14:52:31 <|amethyst> I don't remember if there's a copy of options_guide in the wiki, but if so it needs to be updated 14:55:04 does anyone know offhand a function to check if a straight line of movement exists from point a to point b? i.e. not just LOS but interrupted also by grates 14:55:27 do we need to mention timed_portal in the options_guide too? 14:55:57 <|amethyst> mumra: LOS_SOLID or LOS_SOLID_SEE maybe? 14:56:06 LOS_SOLID doesn't seem to work 14:56:11 what happens? 14:56:23 the jumping spider still jumps through the grate 14:57:03 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:57:23 did you check if the call was doing what you thought it should? 14:57:25 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:57:54 well it's having other intended effects 14:58:29 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:02:49 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 15:04:43 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:04:43 -!- Nikolaos has quit [Quit: Wrong button bad with computers] 15:06:11 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:08:51 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:10:52 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:11:25 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:13:42 it seems that none of the LOS_ enums know that grates exist, but how do normal targetters work? 15:14:39 SOLID should work :-( 15:15:16 put a monster in a ring of grates and try single-stepping while you wizmode-trigger the monster to do the spell? 15:15:58 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-rc1] 15:16:23 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:16:57 honestly it's jumping through the grate 15:17:20 my test is adequate 15:17:39 i really can't see any logic error i've made but i'll have another look over 15:17:47 -!- TZer0 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:03 is this getting called: 15:18:08 opacity_type opacity_solid::operator()(const coord_def& p) const 15:19:05 oh wait, apart from that one really blatant logic error i made 15:19:13 apart from that, there are totally no logic errors :P 15:19:45 -!- nmf has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:25:45 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:26:45 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:02 i was checking los to the for instead of from the monster :( 15:28:06 s/for/foe 15:28:35 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:29:26 heh 15:29:48 -!- rast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:55 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:32:17 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-937-gec3c20f: Fix a range check error caused by cloud overlays 10(38 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ec3c20f3bb3e 15:32:17 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-938-gaebbbe9: Make jumping spiders jump instead of blink 10(5 minutes ago, 5 files, 35+ 16-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=aebbbe95ad61 15:32:55 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:33:32 -!- Bloaxzorro is now known as Bloax 15:35:32 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 15:36:28 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 15:38:51 <|amethyst> mumra: did you intend to leave in enum blink_type ? 15:39:28 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:37 <|amethyst> mumra: also, couldn't the two forms of blink_to be merged by giving a default value to the new parameter ? 15:40:14 Woop, we're getting a new EU-server! 15:40:36 oi. always one last typo you notice just when you think you are done 15:40:39 TZer0: what is its bot? 15:40:56 SamB: none yet. 15:41:37 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:41:38 what shall be its name, though? 15:41:51 No idea.. yet 15:41:57 :P 15:42:25 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 15:42:28 it's a very important issue! 15:42:56 <|amethyst> what's the hostname? 15:43:08 <|amethyst> sizzell was named after s-z 15:43:17 -!- Blazinghand___ is now known as blazinghand 15:43:25 -!- blazinghand is now known as Blazinghand 15:43:32 http://crawl.lantea.net:8080/ 15:43:51 <|amethyst> or, grep -E '^....(el|le)$' /usr/share/dict/words | sed -e 's/..$/ell/' 15:44:01 Lantizzel 15:44:07 <|amethyst> lantell 15:44:10 <|amethyst> lintell 15:44:19 <|amethyst> lentell 15:44:32 Dungeon Crawl: Lentell Soup 15:44:35 |amethyst: yes but it then requires a change in actor.h,player.h,player.cc, all for a paramter that's meaningless for player blinks 15:44:52 lannell 15:44:57 Gazell 15:45:14 -!- s951 has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:37 <|amethyst> mumra: it's not used anywhere though 15:45:44 <|amethyst> mumra: neither the tag nor the enumerators 15:45:58 |amethyst: tag? 15:46:08 yes i was going to use an enum but i left it in by accident 15:46:18 just used the bool parameter in the end 15:46:19 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:26 well take it out again 15:46:26 Linlell 15:46:34 <|amethyst> mumra: that's what I was talking about :) 15:46:43 Lanteall? :P 15:46:48 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:46:52 <|amethyst> mumra: also, couldn't the two forms of blink_to be merged by giving a default value to the new parameter ? 15:46:57 that's what i was replying to 15:47:04 There's just no tealling what a proper name would be 15:47:05 <|amethyst> oh 15:47:20 <|amethyst> mumra: but jumping spider form! 15:47:28 <|amethyst> mumra: I guess they can be merged then :) 15:47:28 -!- g4spr0m has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:39 :) 15:48:43 maybe frog form 15:50:24 Dog form... 15:50:26 :D 15:50:58 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:59 lets you 'see' smells? 15:51:02 mhm 15:51:16 But reduces your ability to see far 15:51:25 and everything goes black and white 15:51:27 and also makes you incapable to see invisible 15:51:36 also drops your int to 1 15:51:43 this sounds strange 15:51:49 although that's generous given most of the dogs i've met 15:52:10 mumra: you havn't met a Border Collie 15:52:24 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:52:32 Those are smart enough to play hide and seek 15:52:34 for one, reducing your ability to see far is essentially reducing your sight radius, which is pretty strong for a stealth character 15:52:37 you can tell me to find a specific person 15:52:55 small children are smart enough to play hide and seek 15:53:00 *it 15:53:09 this does not equate to intelligence 15:53:16 mumra: why didn't you zap the stray enum 15:53:26 SamB: i have zapped it 15:53:39 except ... maybe i forgot to commit? 15:53:43 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 15:53:45 Anyway, the new server is being rebooted now we 2 GB memory 15:54:19 please hold on 15:54:42 hooray, just in time for the last few hours of the tournament ;) 15:54:44 !time 15:54:45 * Zannick holds on 15:54:45 Time: May 26, 2013, 08:54:45 PM, UTC. The 2013 0.12 tournament ends in 3 hours, 5 minutes and 14 seconds. 15:55:09 i think my ambition to get a win might have just gone out of the window 15:55:45 clearly you should speedrun the pacify special 15:56:33 -!- nooodl has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:45 Zannick: KEEP HOLDING 15:56:47 DO NOT LET GO 15:56:59 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:57:22 the server is THAT unstable? 15:57:29 SamB: no. 15:57:33 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-939-ge7c11d7: Remove enum left in accidentally 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e7c11d7fbf65 15:57:36 It has been 100% stable to now 15:57:42 we're rebooting it to upgrade it. 15:57:45 With more memory 15:57:47 then why do you need him to hold it 15:57:58 oh, right... 15:58:07 -!- Nareusm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:08 It is situated over a cliff 15:58:09 huh. resolving a name conflict by rename "xxx.patch" to "xxx.patchNEW" was probably a bad idea. now the tracker doesn't know what kind of file it is >.> 15:58:18 would be bad if it fell down. 15:58:27 browncustard: hehe 15:58:34 i don't want to be holding it over a cliff either :P 15:59:16 -!- browncustard is now known as blackcustard 15:59:48 Zannick: you better keep holding it 15:59:52 it is also tied to your foot 15:59:54 so have fun 16:00:28 i don't need this foot 16:00:55 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01:29 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:27 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:04:37 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 16:04:54 Zannick: well, if you are an octopode 16:04:57 you do have spare limbs 16:05:11 -!- omniguy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:07:34 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:13 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:08:19 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:10:28 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:26 Hmmm... less than 3 hours now 16:12:23 !learn edit tree_form[1] s|$| In 0.12, immune to banishment.| 16:12:24 tree form[1/1]: Slow acting, immobile form with -Tele, no potion or food usage, +25 AC, minimal EV, rF- rN+++ rPois. In 0.12, immune to banishment. 16:14:26 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:07 -!- myrmidette has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:19:08 SamB, |amethyst: does any of you have an idea how to keep ncurses from sabotaging EINTR behind our backs? 16:20:12 ie, if there's a SIGWINCH or SIGHUP, I want the ncurses call to abort 16:21:25 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:22:28 hmm, --enable-pthreads-eintr ? 16:22:32 There we go - lantea is up again 16:23:25 SamB: without recompiling ncurses 16:24:00 I'm not sure if that's what we want or not 16:24:18 and certainly we don't WANT ncurses to need recompiling for it ... 16:24:35 |amethyst: want to help me set up a server? :D 16:25:02 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:26:57 kilobyte: report a Debian bug about it 16:27:32 upstream is likely to chime in 16:29:38 -!- blabber_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:45 TZer0: awesome, that server runs so much better for me than s-z 16:31:01 mumra: :D 16:31:53 kilobyte: hmm, I'm seeing claims that it's not portable to assume that syscalls returns EINTR in the first place? 16:33:37 -!- Implojin has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:33:46 TZer0: your trunk seems a bit out of date tho 16:33:51 mumra: it is 16:33:56 because I went for 0.12 16:34:12 but I didn't bother editing the strings in the webserver-config 16:34:13 ah well 16:34:17 SamB: is there a system that does not? 16:34:23 but in general - I don't want to run trunk 16:34:29 oh, too bad :( 16:34:31 I want 0.11+ I think 16:34:33 kilobyte: dunno 16:34:36 maybe it's an old thing 16:34:40 since I have limited space on the server 16:34:45 TZer0: in non-tournament times, most people play trunk 16:34:51 hmm 16:35:09 okay, but only as long as I can ship off stuff for TV to another server 16:35:17 so that I don't have to maintain every single version on this server 16:35:20 SamB: a terminal that has been HUPped is not that likely to return from that read() call otherwise... 16:35:20 and there are about to be a whole bunch of new cool things that *cough* someone is going to land 16:35:21 as that won't work. 16:35:23 At all. 16:35:40 hmm 16:36:04 well normally it's automatic of course but yeah i'm sure the disk space adds up as versions get recompiled 16:36:13 kilobyte: anyway, report the problem against the package and see what happens 16:36:15 Exactly. 16:36:44 it's just non-trunk misses out on so much cool stuff 16:36:48 mumra: and the moment any cool things land, I'm going to take them and run away to a branch that doesn't allow playing races other than Dj, LO and Gr 16:36:56 haha 16:36:58 what the hell 16:37:02 Ziggurat on D:3 16:37:36 that seems a bit early, yes 16:37:42 without any walls around it 16:37:44 or anything 16:37:51 well you probably don't have 5k gold 16:37:54 quite often they don't have walls 16:38:24 MarvinPA: yeah that's why I think it should've generated lower 16:38:27 what's a Gr? 16:38:31 too inconvenient 16:38:36 2980 actually. 16:38:38 Oh that's the gargoyle race 16:39:07 what's inconvenient about it, wherever it spawns in the dungeon you just GD 16:39:29 mumra: Rebasing stuff as we speak :P 16:39:36 I tend to think that zigs shouldn't generate quite so early because they tend to confuse players 16:39:56 elliptic: +1 16:40:16 that's an actually valid reason to not generate them early, yes 16:40:18 DracoOmega: great! 16:40:59 I did find it confusing when I was offerred a chance to add them to my shopping list ;-) 16:41:03 elliptic: Yeah, I think I can agree to that. Would frequency be adjusted to be similar overall? 16:41:07 how about they start generating after orc, at least 16:41:23 Well, Orc can still spawn pretty early 16:41:34 Or did you mean the bottom of that range? 16:41:45 sure, having the same expected number of zigs would be good 16:41:59 I'd rather put them in Zot 16:42:03 yeah, I meant starting on D:12 (so always after orc), though maybe it should always be after lair also 16:42:08 Is spider supposed to be the annoying branch? 16:42:13 or perhaps guaranteed on D:27 16:42:58 kilobyte: well, dipping into one at XL 15-20 isn't *completely* suicidal and can get some cool loot... I don't see any reason in locking them up in zot 16:43:03 maybe they could spawn after the max depth for orc, but i wouldn't tie it to the actual depth of orc 16:43:05 a guaranteed one on D:27 might be okay though 16:43:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:43:13 evilmike: right, I didn't mean to use the actual depth 16:43:32 i do like the idea of a guaranteed zig, mainly because i dont like scumming pan for one 16:43:44 A guaranteed ziggurat would be good. 16:43:45 but i feel like d:27 already has a lot of stuff 16:43:55 guarantee it on zot:1 16:43:55 maybe put it on d:14 always 16:44:00 well it IS the final level 16:44:07 D:26? 16:44:07 Before Zot. 16:44:09 Well, maybe guarenteed somewhere between like D:15-27 or something? 16:44:34 26 Wouldn't be too bad either. 16:44:35 DracoOmega: yeah I like that more 16:44:38 -!- mumra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:41 heck, we already _do_ have a mechanism to roll branch entrances within a specific depth range 16:44:44 D:15-26 16:45:23 Probably best to be in the same range as hell/pan entrances. 16:45:31 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:45:32 all the other branches get a range they can spawn on. zigs aren't a "normal" branch but they might as well be treated the same 16:45:35 Because uh good luck taking on a ziggurat before that. 16:45:39 (zot is the one exeption of course) 16:45:58 evilmike: Zot has a range too, D:27-27 16:46:05 :P 16:46:13 hm 16:46:19 evilmike: is it rolled and everything? 16:46:21 er. 16:46:23 kilobyte: 16:46:32 in my defence, names are same length and capitalization 16:46:32 +1 for guaranteeing exactly one zig in D 16:46:37 evilmike: this does actually matter, because it spawns via the branch mechanism rather than merely a CHANCE vault 16:46:37 oh yeah 16:46:39 evilmike 16:46:42 Bloaxzorro the Slayer (L27 OgTm), worshipper of Cheibriados, slain by a starcursed mass on Abyss:3 (evilmike_abyss_rune_elephants) 16:46:43 you meanie 16:46:45 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 16:47:06 evilmike is the new lemuel 16:47:08 Bloax: heh. I need to catch up on tournament deaths. I'm going to be so busy this week too, argh 16:47:23 Mine was kind of bullshit extreme. :/ 16:47:27 !lg * t map=~evilmike s=place 16:47:28 281 games for * (t map=~evilmike): 152x D:1, 69x D:$, 7x Pan, 7x Lair:8, 6x D:3, 4x Geh:7, 4x D:2, 4x D:27, 3x Abyss:3, 3x D:4, 3x D:6, 3x D:12, 2x D:18, 2x D:8, 2x Crypt:5, 2x D:15, 2x D:17, D:16, Abyss:5, Crypt:1, Snake:1, D:9, Abyss:4 16:47:32 Bloax: Actually, if the killer was a starcursed mass, perhaps *I* am the meanie in question? :P 16:47:33 I saw someone link to one log, where 78291 got turned into an ice beast while fighting antaeus 16:47:35 evilmike: "catch up on"? 16:47:44 if that's not in hilarious_deaths, we have a problem 16:47:46 They were definitely the biggest contributor. 16:47:48 !lg * t map=~evilmike place!=D:1 place!=D:$ s=map 16:47:49 you mean so you can ridicule those concerned? 16:47:49 60 games for * (t map=~evilmike place!=D:1 place!=D:$): 18x evilmike_ruin_ashenzari, 7x evilmike_catoblepas_cave, 4x evilmike_geh, 4x evilmike_cerebov_lava, 3x evilmike_diamond_1, 3x evilmike_abyss_rune_elephants, 2x evilmike_haunted_forest, 2x evilmike_marble_ring, 2x evilmike_pillar_path, evilmike_abyss_rune_tentacle_tunnel, evilmike_gloorx_vloq_box, evilmike_diamond_2, evilmike_mini_pan_murderf... 16:48:10 SamB: nah. it's just that crawl deaths can be really funny sometimes, and tournaments produce a lot of them 16:48:23 evilmike: it was while fighting asmodeus (probably this is what you actually meant anyway) 16:48:29 yeah that's what I meant 16:48:33 Well if wandering for over an hour in abyss:1 and losing all your scrolls is funny. 16:48:37 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:42 xom was just trying to be helpful 16:48:49 Then I guess mine is too. :v 16:49:22 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:49:25 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:49:41 Bloax: why were you wandering for over an hour 16:49:45 TZer0: there was a possibility discussed at some point, of making the servers so that trunk games *had* to upgrade to new versions ... this could theoretically solve the disk space problem right? since you could automatically delete the old versions 16:49:51 -!- mumra_ is now known as mumra 16:50:05 Because there didn't spawn any waypoints to abyss:2. 16:50:11 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:50:14 And I was going for the rune. 16:50:24 mumra: except when there was a major version bump ... 16:50:41 aren't you able to re-banish yourself now and go deeper? 16:50:42 evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:50:48 maybe you could juggle some distortion weapons if that works 16:50:52 mumra: that might work 16:50:56 banishing isn't very easy when you take the gates 16:51:00 SamB: yeah well he's going to hit that problem anyway of course 16:51:08 we'll just have to migrate the data to another server when changing versions. 16:51:37 evilmike: you can disto unwield to get deeper, yeah, 16:51:50 TZer0: that sounds non-easy; does a crawl version *really* take that much space, compared to e.g. save files, morgues, ttyrecs? 16:51:50 Sounds like by far the best way. 16:52:05 Except for the contamination blowing you up. 16:52:09 evilmike: though banishment effect has a depth/5 chance of doing a hostile malign gateway instead of moving you deeper 16:52:50 Well. It might climb up to like 1 16:52:52 190 GB 16:53:03 over a few months 16:53:21 you might be underestimating how much ttyrecs and other stuff will also add up 16:53:38 Oh, I meant the total 16:53:40 hmm 16:53:49 I mean: sure 16:53:53 I can host trunk as well 16:54:03 but don't expect me to maintain a history for trunk :/ 16:54:08 with the ttyrecs 16:54:13 Eldritch tentacles seem pretty weak at that point. 16:54:21 Argh... finally starting to merge these branches of mine together, and the very first commit has TEN conflicts T.T 16:55:05 TZer0: the size of ttyrecs shouldn't be affected by which version people are playing 16:55:20 TZer0: but if *more* people are playing then you'll have more ttyrecs of course 16:55:21 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 16:55:48 what is this, did I hear something about "no TV"? 16:55:57 that is being implied yes! 16:56:06 1. I can host trunk - no problems. 16:56:12 I'm pretty sure starcursed mass might be the most hated enemy at this point. 16:56:29 2. We can always try to migrate the recordings to another server. 16:56:44 that is - once trunk is updated, migrate recordings 16:56:46 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:56:55 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:57:01 i don't see why the recordings are connected to the versions in any way 16:57:26 sequell would really prefer ttyrecs be left in-place ... 16:57:30 Hmmm... most of these are so trivial that I have to wonder why it needs MY help, though 16:57:33 -!- Vizerr has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:57:49 SamB: moving them around should be doable without much trouble 16:57:52 DracoOmega: because if you don't jorgrun will become a butterfly again 16:58:01 Well, it's just stuff like adding a new enum 16:58:05 DracoOmega: because you didn't ask nicely enough? 16:58:22 A new enum member, I mean 16:58:24 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:58:24 git merge --please 16:58:29 Haha 16:58:44 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 16:58:48 !time 16:58:49 Time: May 26, 2013, 09:58:49 PM, UTC. The 2013 0.12 tournament ends in 2 hours, 1 minute and 10 seconds. 16:58:53 DracoOmega: it needs to know which goes first 16:58:54 Still doable! 16:58:56 I guess 16:59:32 Hmmm... maybe? Of course, in these cases it doesn't matter at all. But at least it isn't hard to resolve the conflicts, though that DOES mean a lot of recompilations to make sure I didn't add a typo somehow in the process 16:59:46 SamB: I don't have space for that 17:00:42 that must mean that you must implement paq8px into the filesystem 17:01:30 the what now? 17:01:45 TZer0: a number of people on the forums said they'd be happy to donate regularly to support a European server, have you considered that as a way to fund some extra disk space? 17:01:57 Hmm! 17:02:00 interesting. 17:02:03 it's just a real shame if that's the only reason not to support trunk 17:02:19 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:02:32 since this was a big problem with old CDO webtiles, 0.11 was so far behind trunk at the point when it finally got switched off anyway 17:02:40 and of course CDO console supports trunk anyway 17:03:24 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:03:26 The only reason I switched to CSZO from CDO was exactly because of trunk support. 17:03:45 * kilobyte ponders using some distributed filesystem for ttyrecs. 17:04:17 this would mean that if a server can't handle them for some reason it's easy to migrate them away. Same if a server gets completely retired. 17:04:47 basically i would never play non-trunk outside of a tournament; if i'm playing it's probably because i want to test out new features 17:05:03 ??uncool[2 17:05:03 uncool[2/7]: Stable versions. 17:05:16 and even just spectating, i'm probably watching to see how new features play out in other peoples games, etc. 17:07:22 mumra: what, you don't ever want to just PLAY 17:07:58 SamB: it's frustrating to play without that nifty new feature you coded a month ago 17:08:10 that I agree with 17:08:28 it can be frustrating to play without that nifty feature you coded the other DAY 17:08:55 but I wasn't talking about trunk/non-trunk 17:09:21 Say. 17:09:28 Okay, I'll fix more space. 17:09:47 Is there a way to check the number of games ended past a certain date? 17:10:04 we'll get everything - TV, ssh-based and webtiles. 17:10:33 SamB: of course, whenever i do want to just play, i certainly want to appreciate whatever effort has recently gone in 17:10:39 Bloax: of course 17:10:43 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:10:48 We'll also accept donations up to that point where the donations have paid off the server-costs 17:10:50 nom nom nom 17:11:13 Server getting more space 17:11:19 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:11:43 Zannick: HOLD THE SERVER 17:11:50 SamB: hm? 17:11:50 it is rebooting. 17:12:06 TZer0: as long as you set down what you'll do with excess money (e.g. putting it into a fund to pay future costs in case you get less donations one month, or upgrading the server over time to support more throughput, or whatever) 17:12:12 ??lg 17:12:13 listgame[1/6]: !lg command displays info about past games. The manual is available here: http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 17:12:52 !lg * end>=2013-04-01 17:12:53 141950. speedrun the Grave Robber (L1 HaNe), hit from afar by a kobold (club) (kmap: minmay_ruptured) on D:1 on 2013-05-26 22:12:25, with 22 points after 75 turns and 0:00:11. 17:12:59 SamB: i think i would really struggle to play another full game now both with nausea, and without semi-transparent clouds :P 17:13:04 !lg 17:13:05 961. SamB the Executioner (L16 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, succumbed to Aizul's poison arrow on D:17 on 2013-05-24 23:51:23, with 102314 points after 40400 turns and 5:21:23. 17:13:08 !lg ( 17:13:09 Broken query near '' 17:13:09 !lg * 17:13:10 2327950. Gorelab the Vexing (L1 SpEn), quit the game on D:1 (ldierk_walled_garden) on 2013-05-26 22:12:32, with 20 points after 0 turns and 0:00:08. 17:13:15 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:13:24 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:48 is there any devwiki talk on halo? the current display in console seems bad. 17:13:52 Bloax: I had to look it up in the docs 17:13:58 !lg Bloaxzorro start>=2013-05-11 17:13:59 20. Bloaxzorro the Severer (L14 MiBe), worshipper of Trog, blown up by an orb spider on Spider:5 on 2013-05-26 20:59:56, with 68330 points after 22746 turns and 1:22:59. 17:14:08 rchandra: bad in what way? 17:14:14 !lg Bloaxzorro start>=2013-05-11 !MiBe 17:14:15 16. Bloaxzorro the Ducker (L7 MfTm), hit from afar by a kobold (dart of flame) on D:5 (glass_columns_a) on 2013-05-26 05:15:14, with 841 points after 4380 turns and 0:15:12. 17:14:37 elliptic: if it overlaps with silence or suppression, the halo is shown isntead 17:14:37 -!- sym` has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:14:42 -!- Netmonmatt has quit [Client Quit] 17:14:42 the others seem more important 17:14:43 Man, it mangles new spell definitions so badly when they share some flags 17:15:03 rchandra: yeah, overlapping halos are a pain 17:15:10 so you have to xv every square 17:15:19 er, just x 17:15:56 I'm not even quite sure WHAT it did here, since half the spell struct seems to have gotten lost in this commit? 17:16:01 I know console probably won't be able to show them all, but it should have a different priority imo 17:16:17 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:17:01 <|amethyst> TZer0: are you compressing your ttyrecs? 17:17:53 TZer0: i'll try and investigate forcing version upgrades at some point if nobody else looks into it, it could be a per-server option at least, i'm not sure how far back the current servers keep versions but it must be an awful lot of space 17:18:05 <|amethyst> mumra: it should be pretty straightforward 17:18:42 Is the extra space needed for old versions just the size of the exe and associated files themselves? ie: no per-user costs? 17:18:45 <|amethyst> mumra: it's just a message, read, and if that need to be removed from dgamelaunch-config/chroot/bin/crawl-git-launcher.sh 17:18:59 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: yeah 17:19:27 <|amethyst> but the exes are big :) 17:19:36 I guess it does add up over a time 17:19:37 plus all the images 17:19:57 <|amethyst> 27G usr/games/ 17:20:04 <|amethyst> that's just the executables (400 of them) 17:20:21 -!- ketsa has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:20:22 <|amethyst> oh 17:20:24 -!- ketsa_ is now known as ketsa 17:20:26 That seems oddly large to me 17:20:29 For only 400 17:20:42 wow, even the db+des cache adds up over 8mb including cluster size 17:20:43 My whole Crawl directory is less than 40mb 17:20:47 |amethyst: I'm not doing anything atm :P 17:20:53 <|amethyst> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 79792223 May 26 01:01 crawl-git-1b4683e88b 17:20:58 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: 64-bit here 17:21:39 DracoOmega: the server versions aren't the same as release versions either 17:21:48 Ah, yes, I suppose there's the webserver stuff 17:22:03 (I have no idea how large that is, of course) 17:22:06 <|amethyst> also, they're unstripped 17:22:09 periodic forced updates sound good 17:22:27 maybe we ought to find out how to compress the debuginfo 17:22:27 especially for games that aren't being played 17:22:31 <|amethyst> rchandra: still needs work to handle major version bumps 17:22:39 it would solve a number of problems, e.g. bug reports of stuff that's already fixed 17:23:05 |amethyst: what Debian release are we running on the servers, anyway? 17:23:14 |amethyst: how about upgrading games that haven't been used for a month or so? 17:24:09 <|amethyst> rchandra: as in launching crawl and telling it to save immediately? 17:24:22 sure. for example, I hate to think the DgJr games are causing trouble. 17:24:24 |amethyst: would that even be needed? 17:24:26 <|amethyst> rchandra: or just moving it to the new version's directory and letting it transfer the next time it's started 17:24:32 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:25:02 actually launching would probably result in spurious messages? 17:25:11 might as well just always transfer to latest version when a save is loaded 17:25:11 <|amethyst> SamB: probably, yes 17:25:44 mumra: that sounds a bit tyrannical, and we still can't do it across major bumps 17:26:06 we're not forcing people to play a specific version, they can play a different one locally 17:26:09 I must eat now. but I think it's the old games that need forcing, not the active ones - sometimes people delay updates to avoid bugs 17:26:48 Yeah, probably comparatively less player inconvenience will happen if just old ones have forced upgrades, and that ought to still save the majority of the space? 17:26:49 i don't know any other game with online servers that *doesn't* force people to upgrade to the new client or whatever ... it's actually a bit crazy that crawl does allow so many different versions 17:27:13 mumra: Well, in most cases the majority of the playerbase isn't playing an active in-dev version, either 17:27:19 mumra: So what they are dealing with is more stable 17:27:25 most active games don't last long, the problem is just with games someone left, probably never to resume 17:27:35 kilobyte: yeah 17:27:49 but possibly not never 17:28:00 DracoOmega: no, but we amazingly give people the choice to play trunk, i don't think anyone completely new to crawl would even bat an eyelid if their save got upgraded to new versions 17:28:00 so you want to give them a decent chance 17:28:06 <|amethyst> TZer0: do you have dgamelaunch set up, or is it purely webtiles right now? 17:28:13 there would only be complaints because players are used to the status quo 17:28:24 and really, what are the justifications for wanting to stay on an old version? 17:28:45 mumra: usually, avoiding some nerf 17:28:46 btw baddevs should take note that your team has lost the combo high score throne 17:28:48 Well, to avoid upgrading into a known bug that is not yet fixed? 17:28:57 That seems a pretty legit reason and it really happens 17:28:58 mumra: you heard about a really annoying bug in the new one, or it messed with something that throws off your build ... 17:29:03 !time 17:29:04 Time: May 26, 2013, 10:29:04 PM, UTC. The 2013 0.12 tournament ends in 1 hour, 30 minutes and 55 seconds. 17:29:35 elliptic: DARN 17:29:47 still time to do something about it! 17:29:56 SamB: the second part is the only valid reason, yeah, but can you give a specific example? because usually when e.g. a feature is completely removed we actually leave support in for old saves anyway 17:30:13 The next branch better not take this long to merge with only an hour an a half left! :P 17:30:14 mumra: I'm pretty sure "bad annoying bug" is not invalid 17:30:16 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:14 I mean, we're generally pretty timely about stuff, but that doesn't altogether avoid that problem 17:31:15 bugs that bad are usually fixed extremely quickly 17:31:18 <|amethyst> mumra: Jester 17:31:37 mumra: yes but what about the interim 17:32:01 |amethyst: jester could be save-transfered fine, no? 17:32:46 <|amethyst> elliptic: oh, it can? 17:32:52 The thing is, is there any problem with disk space here that upgrading all games would avoid that upgrading JUST inactive games would not? Surely that accounts for many of the versions? 17:32:53 it won't work on current versions will it? 17:33:06 !log . jr 17:33:07 132. hyperbolic, XL4 SpJr, T:385: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hyperbolic/morgue-hyperbolic-20130507-012319.txt 17:33:15 48 | D:1 | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-207-ge113bd6 to 0.13-a0-603-g214e6e9 17:33:22 DracoOmega: yeah but e.g. people have jester saves stored for later 17:33:22 %git 214e6e9 17:33:22 03mumra * 0.13-a0-603-g214e6e9: A highly varied Roguey, layout_gridlike 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 94+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=214e6e9c5f08 17:33:25 DracoOmega: where inactive is what? 17:33:41 i.e. jester transferred fine to a version of trunk in may at least 17:33:43 SamB: Well, I didn't have a specific number in mind 17:34:13 as mumra said, we tend to preserve save compatibility for as long as possible, which includes things like removed species/backgrounds 17:34:18 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:58 since the new save format came in in 2010, compat was broken just once 17:38:15 (not counting the recovered from 0.11->0.12 semi-break) 17:38:20 -!- Duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:22 anyway; jesters were an april fools joke, i wouldn't want to start citing them as a reason for *not* doing something that was otherwise beneficial ... 17:38:24 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:34 mumra: well they aren't even a reason afaict 17:38:39 since they transferred fine 17:38:44 yeah 17:39:16 if you want to do something fun, and there's no way to preserve compat without massive work, that's no end of the world 17:39:45 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:28 -!- kaiza has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:40:37 -!- _dd has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:41:27 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:32 i think the bugs issue is the worst one, and to be honest it's really very rare, outages are never anything like as bad as stuff i've seen from actual corporate paid-for games companies' services when they upgrade stuff 17:44:02 and allowing people to not upgrade doesn't even solve that issue for e.g. someone who wants to start a new game 17:44:23 with forced upgrades the bug is more likely to be discovered quickly and fixed for everyone 17:44:36 kilobyte: new save format? 17:45:25 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:45:34 "This might be better!" You swap places with the eldritch tentacle segment. Tentacle connect failed! What the heck! severed status 0 17:45:36 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:48 SamB: package.cc, transactional stuff instead of a bunch of files that get tarred up on a graceful shutdown 17:46:05 xom bugs the game 17:46:10 because he's fucking xom, man 17:46:12 he just does that shit 17:46:21 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 17:46:22 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:24 ??epic bugs 17:46:24 epic bugs[1/9]: if (you.religion = GOD_XOM) 17:46:33 fr xom effect that just causes an assert 17:46:45 heh 17:46:49 ??epic bugs[2] 17:46:50 epic bugs[2/9]: I think I may have just played one of these (like a gnoll castle, but with draconians). Is it supposed to have 200-300 draconians? Or is there an error with the monster generation? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4101 17:47:12 ??epic bugs[3] 17:47:13 epic bugs[3/9]: !lg turnerjer slime 1 -tv 17:47:17 ??epic bugs[4] 17:47:17 epic bugs[4/9]: !lm hjklyubn setm uniq=geryon 1 -tv 17:48:19 turnerjer's is a nice infinite loop with the disc of storms 17:48:40 it wasn't infinite 17:48:51 it was just 49 times the intended number of effects 17:48:58 -!- nmf has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:09 actually here's something I've wondered about. Did anyone actually complain or was bothered by the 0.11 -> 0.12 sort-of-break in save compat? 17:49:14 that was when skills started having fractional levels wasn't it 17:49:34 seems like I haven't found a single complaint about that, and people will find practically anything to complain about 17:49:41 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:49:57 I guess it was fixed quickly enough 17:50:37 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:38 compat breaks prevent us from testing bug fixes on old saves, that's basically it 17:50:40 What actually happened there? I don't think I'm aware of the situation? 17:50:49 i think save compat breaking over time is just the sort of thing people are so used to with other games that it's not questioned 17:51:02 the fact most of the time saves *can* be upgraded feels more like a bonus 17:51:22 -!- Vidiny has quit [] 17:51:24 for a player, the worst that can happen is that you won't get fixes for a game breaking bug that'd otherwise be recoverable 17:51:38 well, breaking it in point releases should still be something to avoid for the sake of players 17:51:54 in stable, well, obviously 17:51:57 but yeah, dcss is exceptionally good at preserving save files, pretty much no other actively developed roguelike does this 17:52:25 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:52:33 I didn't even know saves were usually cross-compatible. 17:52:45 Because I'm too used to every update breaking everything. 17:53:24 ... and the inactive ones only manage it by virtue of being inactive ... 17:53:33 suppose i have 20 points in throwing and zero points in slings 17:53:43 and am weilding a cursed sling 17:53:46 this is what i mean, it's kind of amazing that things work as well as they do most of the time 17:53:46 Bloax: do you play trunk online? Every commit is an update, and saves transfer fine if you hit "y" when it asks 17:53:47 is there any way to throw rocks? 17:54:03 evilmike: yep 17:54:21 rast: I am not sure that would even be better for you, even if you could 17:54:25 rast: Since throwing rocks is terrible 17:54:33 -!- wh1te has joined ##crawl-dev 17:54:34 evilmike: you mean every build 17:54:39 Throwing really needs some normalization or something. 17:54:50 How does an orc priest survive three large rocks. 17:54:50 yeah every build 17:54:52 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54:55 really, 20 point throwing is worse than unskilled slinging? 17:55:11 don't you have anything better to quiver? 17:55:13 well throwing skill is not intended to be used with stones 17:55:15 like javelins or somesuch>? 17:55:21 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 17:55:26 <|amethyst> stones are, what, half damage when thrown? 17:55:59 Well, I don't think that throwing skill really does a lot to raise even javelin damage at higher levels 17:56:09 Certainly they are not competitive with other ranged weapons at their own high skill 17:56:27 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:33 -!- Chozo has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:57:36 clearly it's meant to compete via those needles that don't exist 17:58:05 !time 17:58:06 Time: May 26, 2013, 10:58:06 PM, UTC. The 2013 0.12 tournament ends in 1 hour, 1 minute and 53 seconds. 17:58:22 hey tenofswords you're not due back for an hour ;) 17:58:46 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:59:12 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:16 shit, i forgot i was supposed to be trying to get combo scores 17:59:25 "coming back" will really be "finish another patch" 17:59:40 which in my current state of affairs will be several months 17:59:40 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:01:22 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:02:27 were needles of sickness too good? 18:02:30 Too useless 18:02:39 Basically, they did nothing 18:02:41 so tenofswords is just making a silly joke 18:03:18 by don't exist I mean they only exist with trog or oka because paralysing cerebov 18:06:03 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06:17 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:06:25 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:13:49 -!- ilyak has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:13:50 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:17:32 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 18:20:00 damn, this DETm is going kind of well ... but if i die now we pull back another highscore 18:20:29 -!- neil has quit [Client Quit] 18:20:29 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:22:23 awaiting the "fix crawl" patch 18:22:38 st_: the what? 18:22:44 mine, obviously 18:22:54 -!- Blazinghand__ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:24:14 a shame I won't be able to mirror the all-encompassing sudden changes everywhere while nobody's looking about to be pulled off right now unless I can find another good time 18:26:12 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:26:27 !time 18:26:28 Time: May 26, 2013, 11:26:27 PM, UTC. The 2013 0.12 tournament ends in 33 minutes and 32 seconds. 18:26:49 Probably can still make it :P 18:31:12 damn, i shoulda got bouldersprint merged too 18:31:42 mumra: but you were gonna make it a whole mode 18:32:01 ah, that's when I'll fit it all in, people will be busy playing dungeon roll 18:32:17 well to begin with it'll just be one track anyway, might as well go in sprint 18:32:36 dungeon tumble? 18:33:49 -!- whog has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:34:14 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:36:34 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:36:58 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:59 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 18:41:25 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:42:20 dungeon ball 18:43:05 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 18:43:05 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:45:41 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:47:19 -!- eb has quit [] 18:48:24 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:58 -!- WildSam has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:50:44 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:55 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:51:56 reavers aren't due for several months, you are clearly too early here 18:52:12 HaHa 18:52:26 So the devs are redoing the class? 18:53:14 one dev has a bunch of ideas and does lots of things but is currently busy with making about two dozen significant monster changes at once 18:53:25 DracoOmega? 18:53:35 yes that guy 18:54:29 He said there would be a bunch of pushes once the Tournament ends, right? Because they didn't want to make people choose Trunk vs. The Tournement. 18:55:13 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:55:28 yeah 18:55:52 !time 18:55:53 Time: May 26, 2013, 11:55:53 PM, UTC. The 2013 0.12 tournament ends in 4 minutes and 6 seconds. 18:55:53 at minimum, there's one major branch change upcoming 18:56:02 Crypt? 18:56:06 are you talking about skald? 18:56:07 Is it pushing literally in 4 minutes? 18:56:12 or... 18:56:13 ? 18:56:14 that's nothing to do with draco 18:56:19 well he said he was going for a walk but 18:56:21 lainiw is doing newskald 18:56:40 and it's already implemented and working, just needs some tweaking and polishing before it's merged 18:56:42 mumra: dracoomega said he had ideas for reaver way back when he made newconjurer 18:57:00 Wait, did you mean dungeon branch or programming branch? 18:57:07 evilmike posted a load of ideas for newskald which everyone was really keen on 18:57:11 it is crypt yes 18:57:14 then the next day or something lainiw posted a patch 18:57:26 newskald can also be anticipated, yes 18:59:11 fr transmuters start with more uc 18:59:41 !time 18:59:42 Time: May 26, 2013, 11:59:42 PM, UTC. The 2013 0.12 tournament ends in 17 seconds. 18:59:44 Oh dear 18:59:47 the accuracy at the moment is absolutely terrible and leads to annoying meatgrinding 18:59:51 Not going to quite make it! 19:00:00 !time 19:00:02 Time: May 27, 2013, 12:00:01 AM, UTC. 19:00:08 gg 19:00:18 you will still have a little bit of time for people to be looking at the tourney as a whole 19:00:18 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:00:22 Yes 19:00:29 Besides, Chei will be slow anyway, as Chei is wont to do 19:01:12 what does meatgrinding mean 19:01:44 so, roll out the new! 19:02:43 I feel an obligation to be adding all of the learndb entries 19:02:43 -!- sstrickl has quit [Changing host] 19:02:53 One thing that would be cool for Chei. 19:02:55 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:02:56 Aaaaand let the 0.13 development season officially resume! :P 19:02:59 if we're to be completely off the charts 19:03:04 is slowing down time 19:03:11 until it halts for a brief period 19:03:18 and then speed up again 19:03:42 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 19:04:01 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 19:04:06 -!- kaiza has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:04:13 <|amethyst> Bloax: slowing down time for everyone? enemies? you? 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-940-gc2c1999: Revamp lamp of fire 10(9 weeks ago, 2 files, 246+ 14-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c2c19994089c 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-941-geb3766b: Don't include duplicate entries in the beam path taken if it stops at a wall 10(9 weeks ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=eb3766b1f85d 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-942-g4633ff2: Revamp fan of air elementals 10(8 weeks ago, 1 file, 217+ 7-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4633ff2116be 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-943-g45d14c8: Revamp stone of earth elementals 10(8 weeks ago, 2 files, 242+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=45d14c8255a2 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-944-g86487b6: Add map markers for temporary terrain changes 10(7 weeks ago, 3 files, 86+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=86487b697a50 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-945-gcdd6205: Add routines for temporary terrain manipulation 10(7 weeks ago, 5 files, 145+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cdd62056bea9 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-946-g1311a4f: Make nuke_wall respect temporary terrain changes and restore old features 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1311a4fdf40b 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-947-ge87be79: Refactor tomb effects to use terrain change markers 10(7 weeks ago, 4 files, 20+ 55-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e87be793bbbc 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-948-g4e8a9ab: Refactor warden door seals to use temporary terrain change code 10(7 weeks ago, 6 files, 18+ 58-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4e8a9ab0e823 19:04:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-949-g00a79ed: Tag door seal markers for removal at the next major version bump 10(7 weeks ago, 3 files, 8+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=00a79ed0d4ad 19:04:32 ... and 78 more commits 19:04:34 Slowing down commit notifications, clearly :P 19:04:34 For everyone except you. 19:04:34 especially that 19:04:34 -!- n10000000 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:04:38 at minimum, it'd probably help for somebody to 19:04:38 so that is basically like you were going faster 19:04:41 oh no 19:04:48 (9 weeks ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 19:04:51 9 weeks ago 19:04:53 take it easy man 19:05:07 3 pages of commits? 19:05:24 <|amethyst> reaver: chei will stop soon :) 19:05:33 oh he will 19:05:39 it's just a matter of kicking him 19:05:48 haha 19:05:58 on this one occasion chei should have carried on with all 78 commits 19:06:03 Haha 19:06:15 silly cheibriados 19:06:18 there's no kicking 19:06:20 in crawl 19:06:23 that's nethack 19:06:30 YOU DON'T WANT TO BE IN NETHACK DO YOU 19:06:34 DO YOU CHEIBRIADOS 19:06:35 Have fun with my verbose commit messages :P 19:06:50 DracoOmega: what are these commits 19:06:50 Bloax: just be glad he/she/it didn't actually kick you from the channel 19:07:03 -!- yogidabear has quit [Client Quit] 19:07:25 simmarine: Revamps to elemental evoker items, a whole bunch of undead monsters, several other monsters, and overhauling Crypt monster generation 19:07:33 apparently non-OPs can kick eachother 19:07:33 I'm seeing an issue I had a while ago where spells appear in an odd order for memorisation 19:07:37 Revamps to a whole bunch of undead monsters, I mean 19:07:40 i just looked at the lamp of fire commit, this looks pretty promising 19:07:40 There are only 3 new ones 19:07:48 are they normal speed now or something 19:07:51 But many are changed enough that they may as WELL be new 19:07:59 simmarine: All kinds of changes! 19:07:59 Specifically as a SpEn I sometimes see Confuse (level 3) as slot a before EH and SB (level 2) 19:08:12 cool, ill take a look later. or maybe just experience the changes 19:08:17 phyphor: I think that's supposed to happen 19:08:19 I was getting it during hte tourney but thought it was fixed 19:08:19 <|amethyst> phyphor: that's because your failure chance is better 19:08:22 it was cool playing new vaults monsters mostly blind 19:08:24 ah 19:08:25 <|amethyst> phyphor: because confuse is single-school 19:08:26 depending on training 19:08:26 hrm 19:08:34 that's interesting 19:08:40 simmarine: Just be careful not to go die to a shadow >.> 19:08:57 It's not consistently in the top slot - I guess it's right but unexpected behaviour 19:08:59 i hope they arent like ice beasts now which are capable of killing people again 19:09:14 They are stronger than ice beasts, certainly. But I also moved them deepre 19:09:22 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:09:25 The spell are sorted based on spell success, if I recall correctly. 19:09:29 *spells 19:09:29 -!- Chozo has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 19:09:38 03|amethyst 07[stone_soup-0.12] * 0.12.1-44-gf8d718b: Make superb_item etc. cat-agnostic. 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f8d718bbc021 19:09:40 reaver: yeah 19:09:40 And yes, I expect they are capable of killing people 19:09:40 <|amethyst> phyphor: depends on your precise Charms (and to a lesser extent Spellcasting) level 19:09:44 i wasnt very serious. i just find it funny things that used to be threatening a long time ago are threatening again (ice beast, especially sun demons) 19:10:10 simmarine: remember, there was a bug before 19:10:15 yes 19:10:18 and it was fixed 19:10:21 and then it made crawl hard again 19:10:25 Yeah, that was my fault too, of course :P 19:10:27 so I hear 19:10:31 shadows... doing what they do will be a bit of thing 19:10:31 (Fixing it, I mean) 19:10:34 it also made ice beasts a good summon again 19:10:45 all sky beasting and shadowstabbing and being fast 19:10:45 i look forward to using them on my next ie 19:11:29 ontoclasm: Also, I am giving you a more official poke, now :P 19:11:56 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:02 dracoomega have you kicked cszo to get the new changes 19:13:12 it'd be responsible to do so 19:13:24 -!- rebthor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:13:33 I hadn't triggered a rebuild, no 19:13:41 -!- reaver has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:13:49 do it do it do it 19:13:50 Poor webtiles players will be confused by ?s ! 19:13:52 T.T 19:14:07 well at least they can have longer to be confussed 19:14:46 first change I realize I need to make, I should fit water elementals into shoals zigs to suit the buffed aquamancer spam 19:15:11 -!- revear has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:15 DracoOmega: did you reported bug(s) 19:15:22 requesting new tiles 19:15:44 nice commit flood 19:15:45 should also rebuild %??monster 19:15:45 yeah yeah 19:15:53 i'm trying to figure out a bug right now! 19:15:56 vis: 19:15:59 its like, 0.13 is finally started for real 19:16:00 ugly thing zombie (07z) | Spd: 9 | HD: 8 | HP: 53-83 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 10 | 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(10), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 424 | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 19:16:00 %??ugly thing zombie 19:16:01 SamB: Report what bugs? 19:16:06 how does this exist 19:16:13 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: implementables for missing tiles 19:16:14 -!- revear is now known as reaver 19:16:15 The flood of elemental water hits Crawl! 19:16:22 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: so ontoclasm doesn't have to do all the work :) 19:16:28 |amethyst: Well, I did already let ontoclasm know about what was missing a little what ago ^^; 19:16:29 <|amethyst> tenofswords: building now 19:16:48 <|amethyst> tenofswords: monster that is 19:16:53 do you have colours planned for these new brands 19:16:59 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 19:17:01 <|amethyst> I didn't trigger cszo rebuild under the assumption that someone else did 19:17:04 af_drown, af_drain_speed, af_pure_fire, 19:17:14 DracoOmega: were new .cc files added? 19:17:18 this reminds me kind of when grunt merged his crazy monster spell branch at the start of 0.12. except I think this stuff is more sane 19:17:20 mumra: Don't think so 19:17:25 cool 19:17:28 evilmike: I hope it is quite sane! 19:17:31 I'm not completely crazy, I assure you! 19:17:32 >_> 19:17:34 the msvc project files need updating now when that happens 19:17:42 I mean, some of it will need adjusting, and Crypt is possibly too hard and all, but I think a lot of it is in the right vein 19:17:53 sure 19:18:00 mumra: or crawl.net will fall over, sure 19:18:07 haha 19:18:12 I'm fully a proponent of testing first, balancing later 19:18:14 i'm also working on redrawing the tiles for shoals! 19:18:20 <|amethyst> tenofswords: have to think about that a bit 19:18:22 which is prob. insane but whatev 19:18:36 Okay, I triggered a CSZO rebuild then 19:18:39 Still can't do it anywhere else :P 19:18:39 probably crawl.net is actually already taken, and can't be used for a windows-based tileserver 19:18:50 also some dudes on SA indirectly requested that i redo all the player character sprites :N 19:18:57 ontoclasm: That sounds kind of awful 19:19:23 ontoclasm: does that include the equipment 19:19:27 ontoclasm: what were they asking?? 19:19:30 SamB: it would, yes 19:19:36 was it one of those requests to make player ogres look like monsters, etc? 19:19:40 ontoclasm: you can't do that 19:19:48 there is a LOT of it 19:20:00 no, they just pointed out that some of the pc rac tiles are pretty ugly 19:20:03 race* 19:20:05 also, thanks for redoing shoals, the current tile set for it is annoyingly bright 19:20:09 DracoOmega: can't you trigger CAO? 19:20:13 <|amethyst> pure_fire can be lightred like fire, drain_speed red like most drains, and drown either cyan or blue 19:20:13 CDO should happen automatically 19:20:27 but if i were going to redo them i would have to, like, -redo- them 19:20:44 I guess you've seen that mumra made cave levels use cave tiles btw. Do you think those should get depth specific tiles like the standard D set? 19:20:52 you're bound to see it a couple times in D 19:21:11 well... they could but then we'd have to get said tiles from somewhere 19:21:12 evilmike: i was thinking so; maybe a few variations of the rock tiles 19:21:16 wut? new brands? 19:21:19 oh, forgot af_retching 19:21:28 and the standard D dungeon tile set could change a bit more as well imo 19:21:38 I think it's good 19:21:44 -!- nrook has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:55 tenofswords: And AF_VULN, and AF_WEAKNESS_POISON, and probably others 19:22:00 Maybe the floors could differ a bit, but I don't like highly detailed floor tiles. Dark grey is good 19:22:16 mumra: And no, I can't trigger CAO since I didn't have an account there whose password I can remember, I think? 19:22:19 ontoclasm: i was thinking of just making a few recoloured variations of the rock tiles at least 19:22:26 ??rebuild 19:22:27 rebuild[1/1]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/ http://dobrazupa.org/rebuild/ Bug kilobyte or Napkin for CDO. Use your powers wisely. 19:22:28 yeah, recolors are trivial 19:22:40 I think recolouring would be a nice start for the cave tiles. No need to be super ambitious with it 19:22:55 DracoOmega: i triggered CAO 19:23:04 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:23:32 <|amethyst> let's see... retching can be brown like disease, vuln blue like antimagic, weakness_poison lightred like poison_stat 19:23:40 <|amethyst> did anyone trigger cszo yet? 19:23:44 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:57 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1027-g46c285e (34) 19:24:04 <|amethyst> oh 19:24:12 <|amethyst> did someone undo the TOURNEY= thing? 19:24:30 <|amethyst> guess not 19:24:53 -!- roanoke has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 19:24:55 all I did was make it not screw with the CFLAGS check 19:25:24 <|amethyst> I figured the push that was waiting until after the tourney would include that :) 19:25:26 does af_disease even exist now 19:25:49 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:26:47 Yeah, the old stuff that had it still does it 19:27:13 Though possibly it would be more interesting if they were given AF_RETCH too? I don't know. 19:27:39 a more retched hive of scum and villainy ... 19:27:48 well the only things I thought that had af_disease were vampire mosquitos (gone) and rotting hulks (also gone) 19:28:03 Komodo dragons 19:28:27 vampire mosquito (07y) | Spd: 19 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Dam: 1305(vampiric) | 07undead, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20), 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 179 | Sz: little | Int: plant. 19:28:27 %??vampire mosquito 19:28:27 DracoOmega: just finished skimming through your commit batch, it sounds great :) 19:28:32 !??vampire mosquito 19:28:35 vampire mosquito (07y) | Spd: 19 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Dam: 1305(vampiric) | 07undead, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20), 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 179 | Sz: little | Int: plant. 19:28:35 %??vampire mosquito 19:28:40 grr 19:28:59 ,dump 19:29:06 ??dump 19:29:07 dump[1/1]: Press # in game, then type !dump (CAO) or @dump (CDO) or %dump (CSZO) in IRC. 19:29:24 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:29:25 oh right komodos 19:29:26 so why is %?? done by chei instead of sizzel 19:29:29 shows how much I've played 19:29:45 more like commode-os 19:29:46 elliptic: Thanks :) 19:29:55 hi dracoomega, i like all the changes you made 19:29:57 -!- rwbarton1 has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:30:03 i mean, in principle, i haven't actually tried them yet 19:30:04 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30:07 Thanks :) 19:30:26 is someone able to remove the tourney-warning for trunk (on cszo at least) 19:30:32 So DracoOmega, there was a mention of some kind of attack you were working on involving player knockback? 19:30:43 Did that end up somewhere in this batch, or is it something you're still tinkering with? 19:30:53 (I'm still sorting through everything <_<) 19:30:53 Well, fan of gales blows things away from you in all directions 19:31:10 But the code to move things around could be adapted with a restricted area of aim, I imagine 19:31:13 <|amethyst> phyphor: working on it 19:31:19 thanks :) 19:31:25 It handled things bunched up together, and clouds and wall edges, at least to a degree 19:31:32 on the upside now that red, blue, and orange demons actually have new features instead of just being things that hit you in melee in various ways 19:31:40 |amethyst: how long does it take 19:31:44 the demon pit might actually be a worthwhile thing to think about 19:31:52 nicolae I was thinking about making those yeah 19:31:55 <|amethyst> SamB: now that I pushed it not long 19:32:01 <|amethyst> SamB: kind of doing four things at once :) 19:32:08 heehe 19:32:14 yeah 19:32:24 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1028-g2411ffc (34) 19:32:50 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:33:01 i don't have many existing layouts from before i decided that lower-level demons were kind of boring, i did however think about renaming it from "demon pit" to "bolgia", the pits in the eighth circle of dante's inferno 19:34:04 WOuldn't it be Malebolge? 19:34:34 well, the whole circle is Malebolge, but the individual pits are just bolgia 19:34:39 nah, in crawl its gender is indeterminate 19:34:43 i think the plural is bolgie? 19:34:53 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1028-g2411ffc: Remove the tournament warning. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2411ffc4a2a8 19:34:55 i do not speak italian very well 19:34:59 * Grunt starts up a local crypt test. 19:35:04 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 19:35:04 This is already more interesting than old crypt :b 19:35:07 "Each trench is called a bolgia (Italian for "pouch" or "ditch")." 19:35:11 yeah 19:35:17 I nearly got ambushed by a death knight band, and an ancient champion turned up already. 19:35:32 shadow (06p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 14-35 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 1406(shadow stab) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(40), 12cold+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 219 | Sz: small | Int: animal. 19:35:32 <|amethyst> %??shadow 19:35:37 |amethyst: thanks for the update on cszo :) 19:35:38 fire elemental (05E) | Spd: 13 | HD: 6 | HP: 21-45 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 004(pure fire) | 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 12cold | XP: 196 | Sz: Big | Int: plant. 19:35:38 <|amethyst> %??fire elemental 19:35:49 The completely random zombies are a change of pace from 0.12 / old 0.13 zombie generation, too. 19:36:51 water elemental (02E) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | HP: 32-53 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 2212(drown) | 11non-living, amphibious | Res: 13magic(immune), 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire | XP: 212 | Sz: Big | Int: plant. 19:36:51 <|amethyst> %??water elemental 19:37:13 plague shambler (07n) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 64-100 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Dam: 3407(plague) | 07undead, 10doors, evil | Res: 06magic(73), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 1034 | Sz: Large | Int: normal. 19:37:13 <|amethyst> %??plague shambler 19:37:15 The lost soul sacrifices itself to reknit the flying skull! 19:37:17 ...what a waste. 19:37:25 Haha, kind of yeah 19:37:40 They don't do it for zombies and such, though, or stuff that grants no xp 19:37:42 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:37:45 revenant (10L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 58-104 | AC/EV: 6/13 | Dam: 26 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2643 | Sp: ghostly fireball (3d21), ghostly flames, dispel undead (3d27), blink away | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 19:37:45 <|amethyst> %??revenant 19:37:47 how does one query the nonmeatsprint lost soul 19:37:52 well, if the lost soul knew what it was doing, maybe it wouldn't have gotten lost in the first place 19:37:56 I figure that part of the strategy of dealing with them is just to force them to sacrifice themselves for junk 19:38:00 ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 600: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) 19:38:00 <|amethyst> %??lost soul 19:38:05 As opposed to reviving that ancient lich repeatedly 19:40:11 hehe, didn't take you long to break trunk DracoOmega :P 19:41:55 -!- sbanwart_ has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 19:42:10 -!- tenofswords has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:42:40 what is with 1000 19:42:45 why does that keep HAPPENING 19:42:49 <|amethyst> hm 19:43:11 <|amethyst> 1000 is MONS_NO_MONSTER 19:43:38 mumra: Break trunk how? 19:43:39 cacodemon (082) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 79-115 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Dam: 22, 22 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, lev, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(156), 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1895 | Sp: b.energy (3d20), slow, confuse, malmutate, b.dig | Sz: Large | Int: high. 19:43:39 %??cacodemon 19:43:40 <|amethyst> it seems to be creating a lost soul the first time through the loop 19:43:43 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:43:50 <|amethyst> an actual MONS_LOST_SOUL that is 19:43:54 DracoOmega: ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 600: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) 19:44:01 is it a flaming skull 19:44:03 Well, that's just with monster, isn't it? 19:44:05 surely that has to be one of your changes? ;) 19:44:07 that flies and charges at you 19:44:09 The game itself runs fine, yes? 19:44:13 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:44:19 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:44:35 |amethyst: Oh, I might have an idea? 19:44:46 and infight every time they charge into eachother 19:44:48 |amethyst: They kill themselves randomly if there's nothing on the level they can revive 19:44:51 (because https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/SKULEX.png ) 19:45:01 DracoOmega pushes tons of stuff, suddenly there's a bogus mc error, i'm just joining up the dots here ;) 19:45:03 but yes it runs fine 19:45:04 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: aha 19:45:26 To keep people from chasing down something hard to catch, yet harmless, over and over again 19:46:12 so basically thrashing horrors? 19:46:36 They're not in the slightest like thrashing horrors 19:46:39 In virtually any way 19:46:59 -!- sym has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:06 To keep people from chasing down something hard to catch, yet harmless, over and over again 19:47:12 Seems exactly like them from that description. 19:47:16 Since when do you need to catch thrashing horrors? 19:47:23 They are quit content to throw themselves at you 19:47:36 since cheiabyss 19:48:08 Well, batty monsters are kind of different in terms of catching that ones that maintain range 19:48:15 And this one has LITERALLY no way to harm you directly 19:48:30 So without revivable allies around, it is like a plant that won't stay put 19:48:35 And so it does you a favor and just disappears 19:49:10 -!- C7ty1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:49:13 If there are allies elsewhere on the level, it will eventually show up there. If there aren't, it just outright dies (but the message is the same in both cases, so the player can't tell what is alive elsewhere) 19:49:44 -!- sstrickl has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 19:50:32 -!- zouga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:50:46 revenant (10L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 60 | HP: 228-312 | AC/EV: 6/13 | Dam: 26 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 15000 | Sp: ghostly fireball (3d55), ghostly flames, dispel undead (3d40), blink away | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 19:50:46 %?? revenant hd:60 19:50:53 (meatsprint research) 19:51:18 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:52:41 By the way what are the policies on refactoring code? I'm still learning so I don't think I can track down bugs, but I can refactor some things while I learn. 19:53:19 DracoOmega: did you change the spawn rates on evokables at all? 19:53:40 might be an idea to up them a bit if not 19:54:12 i don't know much about the crawl code but since most of the commentary i've heard on the code is that it is a total mess, i suspect that making the code suck less and look better would be much appreciated 19:54:45 mumra: I didn't touch that, no 19:54:54 mumra: I think they are actually pretty common as-is, it's just that no one notices them 19:55:04 i was going to make a joke about "Linear A++" but i don't know if this is really the right target audience for jokes about ancient undeciphered languages 19:55:07 reaver: sure, any good patches will certainly be accepted, if the result is cleaner and/or better optimised code 19:55:25 nicolae-: From Crete, yes? :P 19:55:26 reaver: even just documenting code, i.e. adding comments on classes and functions that lack them 19:55:33 DracoOmega: yep 19:55:43 all of these things improve the code base and make it easier for everyone 19:55:45 Though I mostly hear Linear B when that comes up 19:55:53 Thanks mumra. 19:56:01 well, i think that's because Linear B has been deciphered so there's more to talk about 19:56:19 Yes, quite possibly 19:56:29 DracoOmega: i'm thinking mainly for testing purposes, might be worth artificially upping the rates a little higher than necessary, so they definitely get some exposure 19:56:32 Actually... I'm not sure I knew that much of it had been deciphered? 19:57:00 iirc it's basically just a dialect of ancient greek written in a syllabic script instead of the usual alpha-beta-gamma 19:57:04 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:57:06 -!- joe____ has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:11 DracoOmega: also any thoughts on the Artificer maybe starting with one of the items? do Wanderers sometimes get them? 19:57:18 <|amethyst> nicolae-: pre-ancient greek 19:57:30 <|amethyst> or pre-classical anyway 19:57:31 yeah my history is a little rusty in that regard 19:57:57 anyway: if i'm reading correctly, the change to red devils is that they basically keep polearm range? 19:58:08 mumra: I don't think wanderers do, no. And I think it's a bit strong for a starting item, anyway? 19:58:19 <|amethyst> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greek 19:58:24 nicolae-: More or less, yes. They will sometimes hop back and attack in on motion 19:58:31 -!- jday_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58:48 wanderers shouldn't get them unless some other starting background does, btw... we wouldn't want people to startscum wanderers for them 19:59:01 no 19:59:03 Good point 19:59:20 but yeah they sound a bit strong 19:59:27 the elementals are guaranteed friendly, right? 19:59:31 Yes 19:59:47 and they can kill early stuff rather well 19:59:52 Yeah 20:00:01 start all elementalists with their related evocable, this is probably a good idea 20:00:02 Of course, I am not sure how long the cooldown works out to, that early in the game 20:00:10 yeah wanderers should be a mix of stuff from other classes, with nothing especially unique to them 20:00:15 (r.i.p. burn spell) 20:00:16 The recharge formula almost certainly needs reworking 20:00:24 <|amethyst> !tell kilobyte new monster commit to handle the new AF_s: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=monster-trunk.git;a=commitdiff;h=abb56f4 20:00:25 |amethyst: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 20:00:30 But it's sort of hard to figure out how to make it sensible 20:00:33 <|amethyst> !tell kilobyte lost soul is still broken 20:00:34 |amethyst: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 20:00:35 making the items a bit more common might be good, though I have to admit I don't really know how common they are right now because I haven't been using them :P 20:01:06 'Good enough' is probably good enough, assuming it actually is. In terms of the formula, I mean. As long as it tends to work out to being able to use them often enough to be interesting without being able to spam them all the time 20:01:09 i dont know if the recent loot changes have affected this, but misc items tend to show up in larger vaults 20:01:20 Yeah, I think there really are a fair number of misc items generated already 20:01:25 But no one knows this since they automatically ignore them 20:01:49 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:01:50 what monsters get the new dimensional anchor/blink allies encircling 20:02:01 except for bronze flasks (i'm never going to stop calling them this) for a flaming scimitar 20:02:06 nicolae-: Draconian shifters 20:02:13 ah, cool 20:02:20 Which lose banishment in the process 20:02:31 already updated learndb on that 20:02:33 does dimensional anchor keep you from getting banished 20:02:34 But the spells could make sense for something else somewhere at some point, potentially 20:02:36 No 20:02:44 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 20:02:46 It does the same stuff -TELE from any other source would 20:02:59 (Except for the phase shift quirk) 20:03:17 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1028-g2411ffc (34) 20:03:18 if I can briefly interrupt the discussion of the cool new content, are there any tourney statistics that anyone is particularly interested in that aren't in last tourney's post (https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/0-11-tournament-results)? 20:03:40 fire elemental (05E) | Spd: 13 | HD: 6 | HP: 21-45 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 004(pure fire) | 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 12cold | XP: 196 | Sz: Big | Int: plant. 20:03:40 %??fire_elemental 20:04:12 |amethyst: Incidentally, it probably should display the actual damage there, like it does for normal fire/cold/elec damage. At some point, of course :) 20:04:46 elliptic: maybe would take up too much space, but a breakdown per rune, for how many people got, might be interesting 20:04:55 at least for lair runes. but i'm interesting in new vaults vs old too 20:05:07 sun demon (083) | Spd: 12 | HD: 10 | HP: 39-73 | AC/EV: 10/12 | Dam: 3004(fire:10-19) | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(80), 05hellfire, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 921 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 20:05:07 <|amethyst> %??sun demon 20:05:12 03|amethyst 07* 0.13-a0-1029-ga113299: Make some functions static and fix a DGL compilation warning. 10(65 seconds ago, 1 file, 11+ 11-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a113299bdbe9 20:05:28 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:05:29 Spider seems like the most annoying branch. 20:05:41 Little experience for fighting very annoying enemies. 20:05:52 evilmike: you mean, how many people got decaying rune, how many people got serpentine rune, etc? 20:05:59 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: is the formula the same? 20:06:01 elliptic: yeah 20:06:07 |amethyst: No 20:06:20 i like spider but mostly because the few times i've been there it wasn't very difficult till the rune vault and also i made some of my first vaults for it 20:06:26 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1029-ga113299 (34) 20:06:29 evilmike: okay, I'll at least look at the numbers and see if they look interesting 20:06:32 Bloax: i dunno if its changed since, but when the branch was being actively developed, i made sure to balance the exp with other lair branches 20:06:44 most of my affection for various parts of crawl is directly related to how much stuff i contributed to it instead of how fun it is in play 20:06:56 they're not all equal, but it doesnt make a huge difference usually 20:06:58 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: min of (XL*3/2) and max of (XL*5/2 - 1)? 20:07:02 the main outlier is the salamander snake ending 20:07:17 * SamB <3 simpler jewellery ID 20:07:34 * SamB wonders why the heck it's spelled that way 20:07:35 what's the simpler jewellry id? 20:07:37 DracoOmega: most games i will certainly have seen one or two misc items by, say, the end of lair .. but not *always*. i guess this is probably reasonable overall. but like i say, for testing purposes the frequency could be pushed artifically a bit higher. 20:07:48 |amethyst: Looks like, I think 20:07:51 SamB: australian spelling 20:08:48 fire elemental (05E) | Spd: 13 | HD: 6 | HP: 21-45 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 004(pure fire:9-14) | 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 12cold | XP: 196 | Sz: Big | Int: plant. 20:08:48 <|amethyst> %??fire elemental 20:09:09 nicolae-: spider was some of my first real contributions as well, i know what you mean 20:09:37 mumra: Well, I certainly wouldn't object if you wanted to nudge them up 20:09:40 -!- WildSam has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:09:51 half of the stuff i've contributed were because i liked something and wanted to make it better. the other half is because i hated it and wanted it to be less awful 20:10:00 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:21 <|amethyst> !tell kilobyte and one more commit 20:10:22 |amethyst: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 20:11:00 !learn add blink_other A spell which irresistibly blinks the player. The blink cannot be controlled. Draconian Shifters have it and Roxanne has a variant that blinks you closer to her. 20:11:01 blink other[1/1]: A spell which irresistibly blinks the player. The blink cannot be controlled. Draconian Shifters have it and Roxanne has a variant that blinks you closer to her. 20:11:19 ??blink_other_close 20:11:19 I don't have a page labeled blink_other_close in my learndb. 20:12:31 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:09 evilmike: http://sprunge.us/UcjL 20:13:28 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:13:51 evilmike: nothing really that exciting, abyssal frequency dropped but that makes sense since you are much less likely to get the rune accidentally now 20:13:59 ah well 20:14:04 this isn't interesting enough for the blog 20:15:20 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-1030-ge26147d: Fix wording. 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e26147d59921 20:15:20 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-1031-g2ea7ea3: Comment fix. 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2ea7ea36db43 20:15:20 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-1032-g4327004: Properly handle jiangshi use of monster->number in monster_info. 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4327004b209d 20:15:20 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-1033-gcfce591: Fix capitalization. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cfce591b3e41 20:15:20 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-1034-g89a0b92: Add missing newline at end of file. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=89a0b92a552d 20:15:46 do revenants fly or walk 20:16:07 revenant (10L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 58-104 | AC/EV: 6/13 | Dam: 26 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2643 | Sp: ghostly fireball (3d21), ghostly flames, dispel undead (3d27), blink away | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 20:16:07 %??revenant 20:16:33 in mtg they fly, in final fantasy they walk. 20:16:49 These are walking 20:17:03 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: if two ghosts flay you and you kill one of them, do you get back all the HP? 20:17:07 Yes 20:17:27 I figured it was better than the complexity of tracking it individually and then the confusion from the player's perspective as to which is responsible for most of the damage 20:17:35 So killing any of them will reset it 20:17:50 <|amethyst> makes sense I guess 20:18:02 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:18:51 And they're fairly mean anyway, so I think this is a reasonable kindness 20:19:43 I actually nerfed them a few times in testing as it was :P 20:20:11 ontoclasm: FL_NONE 20:20:24 03dolorous 07* 0.13-a0-1035-g006c083: Use random_choose_weighted() for Haunt's monster selection. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 7-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=006c083f99f6 20:21:01 -!- jejorda2 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:19 ??DracoOmega 20:24:20 dracoomega[1/2]: Inventor of a wonderous assortment of new things, such as wretched stars and starcursed masses. Nice guy. Is uncool. 20:25:24 DracoOmega: I didn't know you played/were stable 20:25:28 ??uncool 20:25:28 uncool[1/7]: A termsize other than 80x24. 20:25:30 ??uncool[2] 20:25:31 uncool[2/7]: Stable versions. 20:25:43 I think it's offline tiles here :P 20:25:52 That is the source of my uncool 20:26:06 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:26:37 actually, offline tiles is the best *hifive for DracoOmega* 20:26:49 Heh 20:27:04 it has too many exclusive features 20:27:05 mumra: Oh, big thanks for the cloud overlay changes, by the way! 20:27:35 mumra: I only noticed it today long enough to go 'why is that fire elemental animating oddly like that?' but I definitely look forward to it in practice 20:27:46 DracoOmega: yeah, i noticed a lot of cloud-based stuff in your commit storm, good way to show off the changes :) 20:27:49 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:27:52 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:28:05 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 20:28:22 it actually helps loads in terms of parsing the battlefield since you can see at a glance instead of having to check clouds with x 20:28:37 Yes 20:28:46 Especially the 'am I standing in a cloud?' question 20:29:16 It's something I'd intended at some point to look into doing myself, but have been slightly sidetracked lately.... 20:29:54 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:30:23 it wasn't too hard to change once i'd got my head around some of the tiles code 20:30:31 <|amethyst> should CAO default to trunk or stable? 20:30:34 That's good 20:30:38 by "slightly sidetracked" do you mean "revamping demons, crypt, evokables" 20:30:39 <|amethyst> I'm going to make CSZO default to trunk again 20:30:45 nicolae-: Yes :P 20:30:58 A very large number of hours have gone into this now ^^; 20:31:54 i like your definition of slightly 20:31:57 Haha 20:33:04 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:34:49 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39:01 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:41:22 -!- Sealero has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:01 -!- HOPrNewbie has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:43:23 -!- Terwaltz has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:43:56 ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 600: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) 20:43:56 %??lost soul 20:44:02 @??lost soul 20:44:02 lost soul (04p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 50 | HP: 500 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 1006(blink self) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, lev, !sil, 07vault | Res: 06magic(266), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 15000 | Sp: blink; b.draining (3d52), dispel undead (3d40) | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 20:44:19 -!- Cerepol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:44:36 Yeah, not those :P 20:45:18 what glyph are they 20:45:20 * 20:45:20 z ? 20:45:45 ah 20:45:53 I was thinking something like a sort of swirl of amorphous spectral energy. Maybe with a face or faces barely visible in it? I mean, you're the artist though, of course :P 20:45:55 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 20:46:03 oh, it's done already 20:46:04 :J 20:46:06 another bonus of the cloud changes: you can see straightaway if there are items under the clouds 20:46:07 Oh, great ^^; 20:46:08 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: if you want to try to fix lost souls in monster, http://s-z.org/neil/git/monster-trunk.git branch bleeding-edge-crawl 20:46:25 i just need to know what section to put it under in dc_mon 20:46:29 I have never actually looked at monster code before. Um, I mean the code for the program 'monster' 20:46:33 Clearly I have looked at lots of monster code 20:46:37 Ah 20:46:44 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: it does plenty of nasty hackish things 20:47:11 * Grunt attempts to co-opt the fan of gales code... 20:47:29 |amethyst: So I have heard 20:47:42 grunt clearly you should be doing a quick crypt vault patch 20:47:43 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:48:08 do the new phantasmal warriors spawn with any enemies that check MR? 20:48:12 substituting in revnants into about three different ends (ghost form of church of pain, same with elkab, the alich in yours) 20:48:26 s/grunt/tenofswords 20:48:27 they're summoned by haunt by unborns! 20:48:28 evilmike: Well, unborn can summon them 20:48:29 what I mean is, are they part of any monster bands? Or does their melee effect just hope that a hex using monster is nearby 20:48:33 ah, that's true 20:48:40 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: as a hack you could check crawl_state.need_save; if false, you're not really in a game and could keep them from dying 20:48:45 mumra I will be gone in exactly eleven minutes 20:48:47 But probably they are common enough that the situation will arise otherwise, too 20:48:50 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: though it would be better to fix monster instead 20:49:01 I figure they're going to be nasty around liches 20:49:03 Yeah 20:49:07 Or vampire knights 20:49:07 11 minutes is long enough for a quick patch surely 20:49:09 Who are also more common 20:49:28 <|amethyst> !tell kilobyte btw, since you asked about detecting 'monster': crawl_state.need_save is false 20:49:29 |amethyst: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 20:49:43 speaking of liches, i've always wondered if the spellbook system for monsters should be improved 20:50:09 In what way? 20:50:51 something like randomized spells limited by spell level for the random spellbook monsters? 20:50:53 like, with liches they draw from a limited set and its kind of a spoiler, in that if they cast a certain spell, you can infer what other spells they have. an improvement might be just defining a big list of spells and having liches randomly select 5-6, a little bit like pan lords but less scary 20:51:07 Grunt: what are you doing with gales code btw? i was thinking of giving monster elves a gust of wind 20:51:13 so they can disperse clouds 20:51:16 could even make ancient liches a bit nastier by letting them get higher level stuff 20:51:17 also obviously good for making deep elf mages, wizards, ogre mages distinct 20:51:22 that too 20:51:26 mumra: this discussion arose from needing a plausible breath weapon for forest drakes. 20:51:34 aha 20:51:36 leafblower 20:51:40 (My ancient code used acid spit, which is a terrible idea.) 20:51:42 nicolae-: hahahahaha. 20:52:11 forest drakes putting out forest fires might be a nice touch 20:52:23 they should be eco-friendly after all 20:52:29 Well, if they just blow clouds, then it seems likely they would CAUSE forest fires 20:52:36 If there were already flame clouds around 20:52:39 fr: gales put out flame clouds 20:52:47 another benefit for defining a list of spells, rather than multiple books, is its easier to give monsters new spells 20:52:50 Might not be unreasonable 20:53:05 if you want to change wizards for example, you need to figure out which book to change, and its kind of awkward feeling 20:53:31 boo, I wanted the gale of wind spell to replace spriggan air mage lightning bolt 20:54:00 evilmike: Also, there's that awkward special-casing where ogre mages have wizard books but not QUITE 20:54:05 The forest drake exhales a fierce blast of wind! You are blown backwards! 20:54:14 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:19 I just shot back about four tiles. Wow. 20:54:28 yeah the way multiple books is handled is messy 20:54:36 This will be interesting. 20:54:41 evilmike: Well, ogre mages specifically replace the first spell in each book with haste other 20:55:05 although more mid-level air enemies has been a gap for a while so I can't complain 20:55:16 Grunt: Incidentally, if they are really going to breathe air, I might call them something other than forest drakes, which doesn't seem very 'wind-themed' to me 20:55:20 Sky drakes or something, maybe? 20:55:33 (I don't know; just my initial sentiment there) 20:55:33 personally i'd prefer to see ogre mages be more focused on buffing ogres, and make wizards spawn more (to replace the "scary midgame caster enemy" niche) 20:55:33 howling drakes 20:55:52 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 20:55:56 forest drakes breathe trees 20:56:02 DracoOmega: yes but we need forest drakes for forest branch (i agree maybe something more forest-flavoured would be good) 20:56:03 [element] [subtype] is pretty bland 20:56:09 hooded drake 20:56:12 evilmike: Well, wizards are currently a fair bit weaker than ogre mages anyway. Not that this could not be changed. 20:56:15 breathe trees using DracoOmega's new temporary terrain thingy 20:56:39 evilmike: Ogre mages are a fair bit better at buffing things these days though, since I fixed some issue with beneficial monster spell target selection; I don't know if you were aware 20:56:45 weed drake 20:56:47 oh, cool 20:56:47 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:55 Lots of times monsters would fail to use it at all 20:57:00 And now they are a lot more active with it 20:57:01 and/or grow temporary plants in their wake 20:57:09 painted drake 20:57:44 druids should get an ability that grows a tree in a space you tried to move to and knocks you back to where you were 20:57:45 forest drakes breathe some sort of fungus or moss, which spreads across the ground underneath monsters, like a terrain, and does damage to non-forest creatures 20:58:06 the new flayed ghost attack is some sort of psychic thing, right? 20:58:09 does it check clarity? 20:58:12 could also buff two-headed ogres considering they really only exist for variety in ogre mages but don't do much 20:58:15 does stone of earth elementals still dig walls? 20:58:24 i think so, MarvinPA 20:58:28 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:58:34 it sounds like it can break walls, but with the xp recharge, who cares 20:58:43 sprint 3 cares! 20:58:51 oh 20:59:40 -!- tenofswords has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:40 we need ogre phalangites with two handed polearms + shields 20:59:45 MarvinPA: It doesn't do it very repeatably, no 20:59:50 Does this break some sprint content? 21:00:05 anyway, if clarity doesn't protect against flayed ghosts, the desc makes it seem like it ought to 21:00:09 since it's a mental effect 21:00:11 you need to dig through a wall in sprint 3 and it gives you a stone of earth to do so 21:00:16 evilmike: Hmmm... that might be a point, actually 21:00:22 Hmm, I'm hitting an issue where sdl-android downloads very slowly (off git submodule update --init), and doesn't look like it's ever going to stop; has anyone ever seen that? 21:00:22 because felids 21:00:27 MarvinPA: Is it just a one-tile wall, by any chance? 21:00:32 yes 21:00:36 MarvinPA: You are guarenteed to get through one tile with it 21:00:40 cool 21:00:51 (But probably I think felids should just be allowed to use wands anyway...) 21:01:24 evilmike: And really, that would be a nice other use for clarity, too 21:01:33 yeah, thats always good 21:01:40 I mainly have consistency in mind though 21:01:44 These changes are a rN buff! 21:01:50 very good 21:02:02 I like the fact that wearing rN for Crypt now is actually probably legitimately good advice 21:02:15 After so many years of being the punchline of a joke 21:02:17 i have been drawing a lot of angry looking silhouettes recently 21:02:17 the speed drain melee sounds cool. maybe you should be evil and give that to a fast monster, that gets faster as it drains speed 21:02:24 you guys need to make some corporeal monsters 21:02:27 Haha 21:02:31 Jiangshi are corporeal! 21:02:46 it wouldn't need to be too crazy, just something like "casts haste when it makes a successful melee attack" 21:04:35 perhaps give that to one of the lesser demons...? 21:05:14 now that a few of the lower demons have gotten Unique Qualities i'm going to be agitating for more changes so that the demon pit can rise from the ashes 21:05:15 speaking of clarity being consistant, how about the way it is completely ignored by some xom effects 21:05:25 yeah thats dumb 21:05:41 nicolae-: Yes, I don't intend to ignore all the other ones that do nothing 21:05:48 if stasis blocks finesse then it makes sense for clarity to block xom 21:05:53 But some of them I didn't yet have good ideas for, or were busy implementing other things 21:06:09 yeah, no hurry or anything. i will try not to be insufferable re: demon changes 21:06:36 i like the haunt change. its a fairly long standing idea 21:06:43 Wait, it is? 21:06:55 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:06:57 I, uh... arrived it independently, in that case >.> 21:07:01 the ghosts expiring when the target dies is 21:07:10 well, it's a good idea, and fairly logical 21:07:17 But since I was buffing the stuff it summoned, I felt it ought to be compensated somehow 21:07:36 Oh, I actually was thinking today that I might add shadows to its summon list 21:07:43 I think they are now in the right power band for it 21:07:43 i imagine it's still hideously good 21:07:54 you now get free slowing on things you cast it on 21:08:35 oh and I think you can get vuln on enemies now too? 21:08:44 Yes 21:08:46 so combine haunt with a wand of paralysis... 21:08:56 Well, probably if you have haunt stuff beating on it, you don't need to paralyze it? 21:09:23 -!- reaver has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:09:31 cast haunt on something like cerebov, who is too tedious to kill with haunt alone, but is nice to lower his MR 21:09:46 Yes, I suppose Cerebov is one of the places that might actually be sometimes useful 21:10:00 I imagine in most other cases probably letting haunt kill whatever it is on its own is probably simpler 21:10:14 yeah its going to be good at that with the slowing thing 21:11:02 if it's a big problem it can just be changed to summon "boring" enemies like it used to 21:11:18 I am not sure that it is, and even if so probably can be compensated in other ways 21:11:26 <|amethyst> do they completely ignore other monsters, even if a change in positioning means they can't reach their desired target (and even if being attacked)? 21:11:51 |amethyst: Pretty sure they do (at least as far as I saw in testing) 21:13:55 maybe spectrals from death channel should get spells.... 21:14:12 i was so sad when i tried to death channel Elf, and just got plain "spectral elf" monsters 21:14:15 It's not technically complex to let them do so, anyway 21:14:28 -!- reaver has joined ##crawl-dev 21:14:34 -!- ragingrage has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:14:53 Spectral blademasters will still be terrible unless we change how zombified creatures handle base monsters for species members 21:15:02 With their underwhelming 'elf' stats 21:15:04 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:15:41 DracoOmega: happy birthday 21:15:57 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-1036-g66dbd7b: Tiles for the new Crypt monsters 10(48 seconds ago, 9 files, 18+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=66dbd7b904ca 21:16:22 no phial yet but i'll do that soon 21:16:44 Looks nice, thanks! :) 21:16:53 (Amusingly, it really IS my birthday in a couple days) 21:17:16 I really like the jianshi quite a bit 21:17:22 yeah those are cool 21:17:24 i like the lost soul 21:17:29 heh, what happens if you are an undead and a revenant ghost fireballs you? 21:17:30 does it heal? 21:17:38 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/0-12-tournament-results 21:17:40 Yes, but it won't actually do that 21:17:42 I mean I figure the AI is smart enough not to 21:17:48 just, you know, in theory :P 21:17:54 Well, the AI kind of isn't 21:18:09 Since monster tracers versus players are really bad and it can't tell that it does anything other than hit you, which is automatically good 21:18:23 So I did what is done for dispel undead and made it just consider the spell useless if its foe is undead 21:18:41 I would like a smarter solution for that and other things, but it's a complex undertaking and this will work okay in most situations 21:19:06 But like, a side-effect of the current situation is that a monster with dispel undead will not cast it on zombies that are blocking them from a living enemy, if the enemy is their foe 21:19:20 Though it will if there are zombies blocking them from an UNDEAD foe 21:19:36 (It used to be that they were also use dispel undead on living things blocking them from an undead foe, but I at least fixed THAT aspect) 21:20:06 i think torment has (or had) a similar problem 21:20:20 mummy casting summon dragon, the dragons are effectively immune to torment 21:20:26 what if you surround yourself with allied undeads and let a revenant ghostball you to heal up your army. 21:20:29 -!- tureba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:03 It is smarter at not using it against MONSTERS that are undead 21:21:09 Since tracers versus monsters contain more info 21:21:42 But it will cast it against living allies of yours and catch you in the blast potentially, if it is targetting them and not you 21:22:07 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:22:46 i like how 2 of the new enemies are from doom 21:22:49 which doom enemies are we missing now? 21:23:02 (orb spiders are arachnotrons, btw) 21:23:16 Yeah, that was a complete accident 21:23:21 Only after I had them already made did I realize 21:23:26 heh 21:24:59 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:34 evilmike: IMO resurrect the Doom wave of enemies :b 21:26:02 In fact, I actually considered trying to find a new name, but decided that I liked the ones I'd already given them 21:26:09 the names are good 21:27:27 Grunt: arena sprint will need updating for 0.13 anyway 21:27:58 i'm trying out trunk 21:28:24 i like it so far but revenants are just cruel 21:28:36 good 21:29:04 Revenants are intended to be one of the individually scariest things you can find there 21:29:19 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:29:20 Like, roughly lich-tier, but with a very different threat set 21:29:30 revenant (10L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 58-104 | AC/EV: 6/13 | Dam: 26 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2643 | Sp: ghostly fireball (3d21), ghostly flames, dispel undead (3d27), blink away | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:29:30 %??revenant 21:29:33 yeah 21:29:37 Mmm. 21:29:42 They are a lot less 'bursty' with their damage, but are better at setting up situations that will pin and wear you down 21:29:45 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: rivs is afk (probably sleeping)] 21:29:49 i like how ghostly flames will summon spectrals 21:30:36 i suspect that there are going to be even more characters who with their last breath will curse DracoOmega 21:30:38 They can be quite brutal when they pin you in a corridor with spectrals, and then throw fireballs from behind one 21:30:51 how come they don't have res: bullets 21:30:52 Healing the thing blocking you and damaging you in the process 21:31:09 Sort of nice that they are actually better fought outside of corridors 21:31:19 revenants in doom actually were pretty fragile, the bullet resistance is a weird doomrl thing 21:31:21 So that you have room to maneuver around the spectrals 21:31:21 Revenants do have a lot of special spells though, I literally could not fit a adequate description in just one learndb entry. Maybe give Josephine some of their spells? 21:31:36 Well, they only have 2 special spells, no? 21:31:58 Yes, but they do a bunch of different things. 21:31:59 how about for once we don't give tons of stuff all these new things 21:31:59 Which is no more than shifters (or less, by some counts?) 21:32:18 Shapeshifters? 21:32:18 -!- johlstei__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:23 Draconian shifters 21:32:49 No, I guess not. Their spells do more things though. 21:33:01 i don't know if there's something weird about wizmode but i don't seem able to acquire the new misc items 21:33:10 i like it when player spells can be used by a variety of monsters, but unique monster spells are limited to 1 monster/unique 21:33:23 MarvinPA: Via misc acquirement with a scroll? 21:33:33 i'm getting nothing but decks, efreets and boxes of beasts 21:33:38 and one disc of storms and one lantern of shadows 21:33:43 both that and &a 21:33:47 by player spells i mean the standard conj and charms stuff really 21:33:48 That's really strange 21:33:51 Because I did test that of course 21:33:59 Maybe I broke something while rebasing (which is always possible) 21:34:08 Revenants aren't bad monsters though, it just seems odd they have a lot of special abilities. 21:34:08 doesn't it check evo? maybe that is a problem 21:34:27 reaver: nah, plenty of monsters have special abilities 21:34:27 I don't think so 21:34:32 it doesn't look like it does 21:34:35 It just checks whether you have run into one before 21:34:45 st_: you mean like how all the newabyss monster abilities got given to tons of things or the newnewvaults monsters ... 21:34:50 if i max evoc i'll get a cboe too, basically it just seems like the seen_misc bit is failing somehow 21:35:08 (and only for the changed items???) 21:35:15 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:20 typo: Your magical defences are striped away! 21:35:22 I think I'll just drop it. Revenants look like awesome additions to the game. 21:35:26 MarvinPA: new or upgraded game? 21:35:41 new 21:35:42 That's a typo? 21:35:50 stripped 21:35:57 Oh 21:36:01 I was looking at defences somehow 21:36:05 ontoclasm: you should draw that 21:36:14 stripey 21:36:15 I guess -MR looks like candy canes 21:36:18 * Grunt ponders whether to make his Forest redux public (as a branch) at this point or not, given the huge number of things that need tuning / balancing. 21:36:34 Grunt: probably not 21:36:38 MarvinPA: It definitely worked at one point, though 21:36:47 MarvinPA: When I tested this like a month or so ago now, I guess? 21:36:57 since there's probably a lot that needs fixing now, you know? 21:37:00 i went into crypt with a wizmoded level 27 and got annihilated by an enormous horde of guys 21:37:12 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:15 ontoclasm: did you level up your skills too? 21:37:22 Grunt: i don't see why not, i'd like to see it 21:37:27 Two hordes of guys merge to form a large horde of guys. 21:38:10 The major point of contention I envision at this moment is a potentially vastly broken unique design that needs toning down. 21:38:11 ontoclasm: I hope you didn't get annihilated while taking things seriously? =/ 21:38:17 <|amethyst> Do ghostly fireballs heal undead players? 21:38:33 Yes 21:38:36 yes but they won't cast them at undead players 21:38:37 Grunt: surprising concept 21:38:37 iirc 21:38:39 I'm not sure how fair said unique is, given that most of the abilities can be blocked easily in various ways. 21:38:54 <|amethyst> even if you have a bunch of summons? 21:39:05 <|amethyst> non-undead summons 21:39:25 If its foe is you, yes 21:39:54 This is something that would be better handled otherwise, but it will be a lot of work to get it to do so (as it shares this problem with several other spell currently, including dispel undead for example) 21:39:57 Perhaps I'll put this up somewhere other than the main repository so that I can fine-tune it properly without (too much) fear of retribution <_< 21:40:14 well that's what branches are for surely 21:40:17 no one will get mad if you push a branch to the main crawl repo 21:40:54 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: what about friendly revenants? 21:41:03 no one will merge it by accident or anything 21:41:08 they might get irritated when the inevitable bugfixes to DracoOmega's stuff in master aren't there, though ... 21:41:10 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: can you get them to catch you in their fireball by standing near enemies? 21:41:15 |amethyst: They won't aim a fireball at you either, I guess? 21:41:19 the problem with pushing a forest branch is there's a danger you won't see the wood for the trees 21:41:33 |amethyst: They could catch you in the blast if their foe was living and you were next to it, yes 21:41:36 MarvinPA: hey. you need to remove several monsters now you know 21:41:42 mumra: well, eventually it will reach trunk :) 21:41:47 true 21:41:59 st_: why's that 21:42:00 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: I guess we can wait until someone manages to exploit it 21:42:04 ??rules 21:42:04 rules[1/6]: Remove a monster for every monster you add. 21:42:10 |amethyst: I think it might be pretty hard, really 21:42:18 and we still have a bunch of do-nothing monsters 21:42:18 |amethyst: And remember it's still spawning spectrals that will hit you 21:42:29 can safely remove a bunch of golems, for instance 21:42:32 evilmike: Well, in general for a lot of them I'd rather make them interesting if possible 21:42:33 plant (03P) | Spd: 0 | HD: 10 | HP: 37-73 | AC/EV: 10/0 | 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 0 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 21:42:33 %??plant 21:42:36 Grunt: at that point i would have to leaf 21:42:36 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: friendly revenants spawn unfriendly spectrals? 21:42:37 golems were what i was thinking of, yeah 21:42:39 bush (07P) | Spd: 0 | HD: 20 | HP: 80-130 | AC/EV: 15/0 | 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire | XP: 0 | Sz: Big | Int: plant. 21:42:39 %??bush 21:42:41 fungus (15f) | Spd: 0 | HD: 8 | HP: 28-59 | AC/EV: 1/0 | 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 0 | Sz: tiny | Int: plant. 21:42:41 %??fungus 21:42:42 |amethyst: Well, no 21:42:46 evilmike: do-nothing monsters like that 21:42:46 also fish 21:42:48 DracoOmega: sure, but i think it's safe to trim stuff and then add cool things later 21:42:49 ? 21:42:56 -!- caleba has quit [Client Quit] 21:42:58 Water monsters need a complete overhaul, IMO. 21:42:59 SamB: I mean they do nothing in terms of design 21:43:13 what do plants do in terms of design 21:43:13 Well, I was planning to work on water monsters too. I had a few ideas, but haven't gotten to them yet. 21:43:15 an iron golem isn't doing much that a crystal golem isn't. 21:43:21 I like the IDEA of golems even if the current ones don't work that well 21:43:27 iron golems are fine because of dis. bu what do we need crystal ones for? 21:43:39 Lehudib's Crystal Spire, obviously. 21:43:40 The lost soul flickers out of the living world. 21:43:41 * Grunt flees in terror. 21:43:43 evilmike: they can shatter 21:43:43 Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-1036-g66dbd7b 21:43:43 what is this exactly 21:43:44 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: is shadow creatures the only way to get a friendly one? 21:43:48 instant telport self? 21:43:49 |amethyst: I believe so 21:43:59 ontoclasm: Either that or it just outright dying 21:44:10 ontoclasm: No way for the player to tell, and it really doesn't ultimately matter 21:44:12 the only golem we need is drolem 21:44:27 it just did it on its own without me touching it, so i guess it teleported 21:44:29 ele golem 21:44:31 SamB: another example is the recently deceased rock trolls 21:44:35 ontoclasm: Well, it can still die the way 21:44:37 that* 21:44:46 there are definitely things that can be done with golems 21:44:53 other than removal 21:45:01 ontoclasm: Basically, if it is near a hostile, but no revivable allies, it will try to find some revivable allies and teleport there, submerged. If there AREN'T any anywhere, it will just die 21:45:10 mumra: can we build a megagolem with them 21:45:21 yes 21:45:22 ontoclasm: To save the player running into a harmless thing over and over again 21:45:26 That they can't catch 21:45:29 The golems merge! 21:45:59 Like, thematically I think golems could make a good monster for Vaults (I mean to tweak monster weights there at some point), but they would need to be fairly different to be suitable there 21:45:59 SamB: oh, to answer your plant question, they can be interesting in lair sometimes when they create chokepoints in corridors, and then get killed by monsters to make space 21:46:06 also, fedhas does stuff with plants 21:46:19 i think bushes are more annoying than useful though 21:46:41 burn them? 21:46:59 sticky flame a bush, it becomes a burning bush!! 21:47:28 i think golems should get special abilities 21:47:32 still advocating crystal golem conversion to (less hp, faster) crystal guardian bands 21:47:40 ^ 21:47:52 fine with me 21:48:01 A stasis aura could make sense for a golem too, I think 21:48:22 Since that idea comes up from time to time 21:48:27 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:31 -!- kaiza has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:48:33 i had this idea where each type of golem has a list of permabuffs which it can spawns with only 1 of 21:48:50 leda's golem 21:48:51 so stone golem might have leda's (and immunity to) 21:48:51 DracoOmega: magnet golem that attracts teleports.... 21:48:58 tenofswords: ^ exactly 21:49:03 Like, I kind of would like if crystal golems could use fulminant prism, but that seems very hard to make them not blow up their own team with it. Placing it in a way that is relevant to the player is much easier, but friendly fire in a delayed fashion? =/ 21:49:25 what if you make a monster version of the spell that does a resistable damage type 21:49:36 thats kind of a crappy workaround i guess 21:49:36 crystal golem could simply have a light focusing attack which i guess is just going to dazzling spray but still 21:49:38 just make them immune to its damage and then laugh when they blow up random guys 21:50:12 Well, it makes sense that a crystal golem itself could be immune 21:50:16 I just fear for the other stuff around it 21:50:18 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 21:50:35 Watch people dragging the golems through bands of other stuff and blowing them all up >.> 21:50:47 (other crystal golems :p) 21:51:04 Well, that's not reliable if they're used in more than a few really rare contexts 21:51:09 anyway the only important thing is figuring out how to make a void golem. we need more crawlt imports 21:51:15 fr firing dazzling spray at a crystal golem refracts it everywhere and blinds the whole room 21:51:19 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-1037-g2e5ab92: Troll spectrals and zombies should use large tiles 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2e5ab92c51b2 21:51:31 whats a void golem? 21:51:43 void golems have af_drown, duh 21:51:51 avoid golem 21:51:53 golem with targetted silence 21:52:05 oh. thats something i've wanted for a while 21:52:08 comes with packs of greater unseen horrors 21:52:16 that part i dont know about :P 21:52:19 drowning is silence! 21:52:31 crawlt? 21:52:33 lorocypbat 21:52:34 Well, if you can't breathe water, anyway 21:52:38 Or don't need to breathe at all 21:53:25 (antimagic unseen horrors) 21:54:39 other good crawlt things: all those faeries that I can't remember what crazy things trey did 21:54:52 I would have done more weird things with crystal_crosses but _somebody_ forgot to speed up gargoyles 21:55:05 tukima's fairy 21:55:18 orb of elec fziry 21:55:35 zot trap effects fairy 21:55:36 zot trap fairy 21:56:00 assassin fairy (?? what did they even do) 21:56:01 fire vortex haunt fairy 21:56:09 -!- PsyMar has quit [Quit: I, Garland, will knock you all down!] 21:56:18 golem summoner fairy 21:56:54 time twist is hard to abbreviate 21:57:19 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:57:30 evilmike: you should see the branch end for fairyland by the way, makes your ambush vault look soft 21:57:36 can we just steal invisible orb guardians and acid blobs in zot instead 21:57:50 st_: i've seen it actually, i remember thinking it was insane 21:58:19 ambush encompass vault with the rune hidden in the walls <3 22:00:02 also pan spawning a demon every 5 turns 22:00:29 man I tell you, crawlt pan is the most insane thing I've ever seen 22:00:40 it is miserable like nothing else 22:01:10 abyss:27 22:01:41 presumable you could exit from that 22:02:09 Exits on every second square 22:03:16 but looking for the rune! 22:03:44 Rune vaults on every second square 22:04:28 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:05:17 You get that as soon as Abyss:8. :b 22:05:23 also crawlt had open zot layouts, yet again showing it was far ahead of stone soup 22:05:28 unknown monster: "meat lost soul" 22:05:28 %??meat lost soul 22:06:03 predicting acid_trip 22:06:34 DracoOmega: that's a lot of rune vaults 22:06:35 you cant make gosts out of meat 22:06:39 dont you know anything about how ghosts work 22:06:43 they are like the opposite of meat, almost 22:06:44 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:07:20 evilmike: then why is there a db entry called that ... 22:07:29 according to the combat messages, meatsprint does infact have meatghosts 22:07:35 spooky 22:07:51 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-rc1] 22:07:54 sculptors, explicitly just bone 22:07:56 SamB: Well, they're just lost souls in-game 22:08:14 SamB: But this was so that the ones in normal Crawl and meatsprint would have seperate descriptions 22:08:26 yeah yeah 22:08:43 I don't like the special combat messages 22:08:50 What special combat messages? 22:09:00 the ones for the axe of woe 22:09:10 I didn't realize there were any 22:09:15 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:28 kb did it 22:09:55 Ah, when it was made into an unrand so that it would always hit and such? 22:10:40 yes 22:10:41 yeah 22:10:49 I also don't like the +infinity 22:11:04 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:11:17 can I use a dancing axe of woe in a sprint 22:11:33 Maybe I should just push the forest_redux branch in the hopes that people with more design sense than I generally have can beat something usable out of it. 22:11:33 of course 22:11:35 tenofswords: you can TRY 22:11:43 what about 600 axe of woe mimics 22:11:54 655 22:12:09 tenofswords: what happened to the other 11? 22:12:28 what happens if you tukima's dance the axe of woe 22:12:31 kobold; axe_of_woe 22:12:32 floor limits 22:14:14 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:17 somebody should put an unborn deep dwarf in meatsprint 22:14:25 dancing unrand sounds like a cool vault idea for a normal unrand vault 22:14:30 so you can get killed a million times over by reflected damage 22:14:43 Only 2/3 of a million times now 22:14:52 Bad item name: 'axe' 22:14:52 %??dancing weapon; axe unrand:axe_of_woe 22:14:58 Bad item name: 'weapon' 22:14:58 %??dancing weapon; weapon unrand:axe_of_woe 22:15:06 Bad item name: 'weapon' 22:15:06 %??dancing weapon; unrand:axe_of_woe weapon 22:15:15 ASSERT(wpn) in 'dungeon.cc' at line 4693 failed. 22:15:15 %??dancing weapon; unrand:axe_of_woe any 22:15:25 dancing weapon (06() | Spd: 10-20 | HD: 15 | HP: 5-56 | AC/EV: 5/19 | Dam: 14 | 11non-living, fighter, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 836 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 22:15:25 %??dancing weapon; unrand:axe_of_woe any weapon 22:15:52 -!- TheOverlord has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:03 Bad item name: 'executioners axe' 22:16:03 %??dancing weapon; executioners axe 22:16:06 dancing weapon (06() | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 56 | AC/EV: 28/15 | Dam: 36 | 11non-living, fighter, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 1120 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 22:16:06 %??dancing weapon; executioner's axe unrand:axe_of_woe 22:16:06 dancing weapon (06() | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 56 | AC/EV: 28/15 | Dam: 36 | 11non-living, fighter, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 1120 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 22:16:06 %??dancing weapon; executioner's axe 22:16:31 -!- purge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:32 what, it doesn't get better stats for being unrand 22:16:35 New branch created: forest_redux (9 commits) 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1038-g65f519f: Alternate Forest with Crypt. 10(26 hours ago, 12 files, 54+ 27-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=65f519f29f21 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1039-g5ad725f: Adjust level layouts for Forest. 10(26 hours ago, 5 files, 50+ 43-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5ad725fafd9e 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1040-g550ba40: Adjust the Forest monster weightings; add a few monsters in. 10(26 hours ago, 1 file, 22+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=550ba40641fb 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1041-g6e24bbf: Import some monsters from old Forest work. 10(26 hours ago, 7 files, 66+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6e24bbf38158 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1042-g90e6f20: Forest monsters: fauns and satyrs. 10(26 hours ago, 9 files, 72+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=90e6f20b66f4 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1043-g72e30d1: New unique: Pan, the lord of all satyrs. 10(23 hours ago, 17 files, 196+ 5-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=72e30d1aab31 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1044-g0f8ebb9: Add tengu to forest; add tengu conjurers and tengu warriors. 10(2 hours ago, 8 files, 89+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0f8ebb952c4b 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1045-g2720019: Co-opt the fan of gales' wind blast for a forest drake breath attack. 10(78 minutes ago, 6 files, 118+ 50-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=272001920a65 22:16:36 03Grunt 07[forest_redux] * 0.13-a0-1046-gaad4457: Some Forest vaults (mostly from old forest work). 10(60 minutes ago, 2 files, 430+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=aad4457711c3 22:16:38 Hmmm... some more testing on misc acquirement and it seems that the value of seen_misc for those items IS true 22:16:42 So I am not sure why it is not giving them 22:16:54 st_: I had the idea long ago but couldn't decide what to use 22:17:12 DracoOmega: I thought it was supposed to give you stuff you HADN'T seen 22:17:15 not stuff that you had 22:17:16 maybe leech 22:17:29 hah! 22:17:40 SamB: That's what I mean. It has the problem value for them in that I have not seen them, yet it still isn't giving them 22:17:40 Alright, someone tear these designs to shreds, because they deserve it. 22:17:49 ignoring kb's complaints 22:18:04 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:18:09 now i have to draw saytrs? 22:18:10 DracoOmega: so shouldn't the value in that bit array be 0/false? 22:18:16 ontoclasm: you don't *have* to :b 22:18:16 at least they are corporeal 22:18:23 xD 22:18:40 I know there are some old dryad and forest drake tiles kicking around, if it's any consolation! 22:19:14 What branch are you planing to put in the forest roulette? 22:19:34 xD 22:20:13 Well, I think it may be failing to CREATE the elemental evoker for some reason, not failing to TRY 22:20:29 fauns look _vile_ 22:20:55 In fact, that does seem to be what is happening 22:21:05 tenofswords: leech would be a nice sil parallel, there is a unique deathblade (dancing weapon) that has vampiric 22:21:13 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:21:14 I was thinking maybe glaive of the guard 22:21:21 mmmm 22:22:26 fear + mesmerize <3 22:23:27 DracoOmega: is it an awesome containment leak? 22:23:33 Oh, I see the issue 22:23:43 like, that's practically g. naga territory 22:23:48 They count as 'useless' while not charged and the dummy used to test it is not given charges yet 22:24:22 <|amethyst> I'm not sure they should count as useless when not charged 22:24:41 <|amethyst> wouldn't that make d, drop them when recharging is essentially free 22:24:49 <|amethyst> (slow, but free) 22:24:49 What? 22:24:54 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:07 <|amethyst> d, drops useless items 22:25:16 <|amethyst> well 22:25:22 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:25:22 <|amethyst> I guess really its no different from wands 22:25:45 Yes, it was supposed to be similar to wands 22:25:59 Unfortunate there is an issue, in that the dummy is given 1 charge to make it 'not useless' 22:26:00 I kind of want tengu to combine into a reaver but b. of fire burns down them trees (at minimum tecj overlap with spae a _little_) 22:26:06 what do discharged rods count as ? 22:26:08 And evokers use charges to count the exp remaining 22:26:23 So that they have inverse conditions for the dummy working 22:26:36 I'd like to change up the SpAE spell set at some point (I like the idea of them getting wind blast). 22:26:41 An evoker is charged when the item.plus is 0 22:27:06 DracoOmega: tricksy 22:27:51 I suppose it could use plus2 instead, maybe? (I don't think that's used for anything here?) 22:29:41 -!- evilmike has quit [] 22:30:33 -!- blackcustard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:40 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:50 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:32:09 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:11 -!- tenofswords has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:35:55 -!- kaiza has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:36:22 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:33 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:37:24 Well, I think this fixes it 22:37:34 And hopefully I am not overlooking some code that still looks at .plus instead of .plus2 22:37:40 DracoOmega: Pacra is playing newcrypt right now. 22:37:53 Oh? ^^; 22:38:04 Perhaps tune in to cszo :) 22:38:13 -!- ahahahah has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:38:18 -!- Dixlet_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:38:20 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:44 newcrypt + language=whatever_that_is 22:38:51 dwarven, I believe. 22:38:55 qwarven 22:38:57 wasn't it 22:39:16 ??qwarven 22:39:17 I don't have a page labeled qwarven in my learndb. 22:39:21 ?qwarve 22:39:24 ??qwarf 22:39:25 qwarf[1/1]: < Pseudonut> because they drink a lot 22:39:28 <|amethyst> 1learn add qwarven Enter note: brb thar's an ant on me inner thigh AGMAFHA 22:39:28 :D 22:39:31 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:58 -!- tgcid has quit [Client Quit] 22:41:44 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 22:43:51 -!- Unflexed has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:44:51 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:49:39 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 22:50:33 trip report, DracoOmega 22:50:37 way too many ghouls 22:50:39 -!- Jevouse has quit [] 22:50:43 Yes, that seems to be my impression too 22:50:45 if there are now always this many ghouls 22:50:55 most good players will just skip crypt altogether 22:50:56 I wasn't planning to make more ghouls than previously, for what it's worth 22:51:05 revenants are bastards i like them 22:51:10 I think you may have gotten unlucky in that regard, though 22:51:11 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:13 <|amethyst> seemed like a lot of jiangshi, but I guess that's because of the v.mage bands 22:51:18 jiangshi(sp) could use a bit more of a buff 22:51:27 shamblers are also bastards 22:51:27 (todo: make an alternate monster set for evilmike_haunted_forest so it can also appear as a Forest ending <_____<) 22:51:41 the thing is, both shamblers and tons of ghouls 22:51:44 Certainly I do not want a whole pile of ghouls around 22:51:45 too much rot 22:51:53 Pacra: sounds like you just have... 22:51:54 Well, the idea with shamblers is that you step away to avoid the rot 22:51:55 *glasses* 22:51:59 ...rotten luck. 22:52:02 lost souls are interesting 22:52:23 Incidentally, what about, say, making one only of ghoul's two claw attacks rot? 22:52:31 DracoOmega: would you like me to continue crypt:5 22:52:36 (fr: let player ghouls deal rot in unarmed combat) 22:52:36 Up to you! 22:52:38 usually i always skip evilmike_haunted_forest 22:52:49 DracoOmega: i like that a lot 22:53:07 push it and get feedback! 22:53:08 And I was actually worried that jiangshi might be a little TOO nasty against low AC characters 22:53:10 I wonder if just putting haunted forest into Forest without changing the monsters would actually seem too out of place 22:53:12 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:53:18 would be jarring, to be sure 22:53:46 also that change would probably make me actually consider meleeing ghouls instead of just skipping the level when I see any 22:53:48 I want there to be *some* continuity; also, theoretically, the Enchantress is supposed to turn up somewhere on F:5. 22:53:59 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 22:54:01 SwissStopwatch: You really take such an extreme approach? 22:54:06 I melee present ghouls all the time >.> 22:54:14 I really hate getting rotted 22:54:20 (Though I could just make her a roaming unique with guaranteed vaults on F:5, sort of like Ilsuiw...) 22:54:26 I think rot does more psychological than real damage 22:54:35 I at least head for the stairs, try to work around them, and if that looks too hard I just go to the next floor 22:54:40 well, the thing is 22:54:55 <|amethyst> ??emotional damage 22:54:56 I don't have a page labeled emotional_damage in my learndb. 22:55:08 I've had levels in Crypt where ghouls were near all three stairs. 22:55:11 If I actually fought ghouls with some of the chars I go to crypt with I'd either be far down on curing or I would take a lot of rot 22:55:13 That was... painful. 22:55:52 man 22:55:53 also 22:55:58 Xom is like mini-Jiyva this game 22:55:58 I did skip Crypt or at least didn't clear it very thoroughly on my tournament games because the way it is in .12 has seemed very annoying 22:57:12 But yeah - rot kind of has the same disproportionate effect on chars with suspect defenses that item destruction has on low EV chars, right? 22:57:34 If I already am worried about my defenses I don't need to be losing MaxHP/curing/heal wounds 22:58:04 Maybe we should just make rot more noticable, and make it recover on its own with xp gain or something, maybe? (Just tossing ideas out there) 22:58:06 and those flayed ghosts look brutal now 22:58:26 at least resting it off doesn't take too long 22:58:40 Well, it goes away immediately upon killing them 22:58:52 And not TOO many turns out of sight of them (it doesn't heal at all while you can see them) 22:59:10 yeah, if it were like statloss healing that would be horrid 22:59:36 lost souls should have a minor explosion when they enter a monster 22:59:37 imo 23:00:00 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:01:23 -really- brutal. 23:02:05 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 23:02:11 is there any sort of limit on how much HP you can lose from flaying 23:02:54 or can the ghost just decide to runner them off quickly and you die in like 4 turns 23:02:56 It won't lower you below like... 20. It scales with your max and current hp, by th way 23:03:08 Not unlike torment, though not quite the same formula 23:03:13 mm. 23:03:28 the fun part of this is that these show up not infrequently in D too still, right 23:04:01 which sounds like it could get much worse than what they do in crypt 23:04:46 Yes, flayed ghosts are in D too 23:05:09 -!- C7ty1 has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:24 I suspect the monster set there can get a lot more dangerous than the crypt one can in conjunction with these 23:06:36 orange demon (044) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 38-66 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Dam: 1005(reach)04(poison, weak), 8 | 05demonic | Res: 06magic(64), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 417 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 23:06:36 <|amethyst> %?? orange demon 23:06:36 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 23:07:04 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07:18 |amethyst: That wording makes it look like the poison itself is weak, I think 23:07:21 And not that it weakens you 23:07:22 <|amethyst> (not sure about the red for "(reach)", or the fact that it has its own set of parentheses) 23:07:36 'weakening' or 'weakness' would be better, I think 23:07:43 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:08:34 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:08:52 orange demon (044) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 38-66 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Dam: 1005(reach)04(poison, weakness), 8 | 05demonic | Res: 06magic(64), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 417 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 23:08:52 <|amethyst> %?? orange demon 23:09:31 Pacra: How'd you find it on the whole, though? Fun? ^^; 23:10:22 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: I was kind of thinking "Feeble" might be a better word than "Weak" for the ench/dur 23:10:28 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:10:45 I sort of feel like I'd like to do something about the ghoul situation fairly quickly, though. I did notice in mapstats that they were a BIT more common, but possibly moreso than I thought. I mean, I ran through Crypt a lot of times, but not a 'real' game. Also a lot of people dislike them more than I seem to, and I'd rather that not turn people away from the branch 23:10:53 |amethyst: Yeah, that sounds sensible to me, actually 23:11:06 I refer to it that way in the messages sometimes already 23:12:10 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-1038-g587a60a: Allow misc acquirement to properly give elemental evokers 10(8 minutes ago, 4 files, 6+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=587a60a6c799 23:13:19 -!- gvdm has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:14:19 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:24 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 23:15:31 the more important change is probably the new monsters maybe turning it into less of a giant slog of hacking/blasting your way through huge piles of skeletal warriors and stone giant zombies, with an occasional ettin to make sure you're awake 23:15:49 although given the current state/role of crypt, that might not actually make people more likely to want to go there 23:15:58 Well, I have no doubt that it is far more varied than before 23:16:16 I do feel a little wary about a challenging branch that is optional and has less end loot than, say, Elf though, I admit 23:16:19 And making people maybe not want to go there isn't necessarily a bad thing 23:16:21 Even if it is fun 23:17:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 23:17:52 Clearly we should just give the place a rune or something :P 23:17:55 maybe in context the ghoul rot is bad because it's an optional branch that can end up doing lasting damage to you if you have the nerve to actually try going there 23:18:08 That is a fair point, certainly 23:18:18 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:26 Though I often find there is plenty enough potions to fix all of it eventually, but I can't deny that rot bothers a lot of people quite a bit 23:18:44 And even I find it somewhat annoying and don't want to ADD to the problem (like, plague shambler miasma isn't really meant to hit you very often) 23:19:02 I kind of feel like the things in Crawl that get the most complaints (and hopefully it's not just me noticing this because I tend to agree with them) are the ones that inconvenience your character instead of just trying to kill them 23:19:13 Pacra: How'd you find it on the whole, though? Fun? ^^; 23:19:29 The things in Crawl that get the most complaints as of late are things that I design. <_< 23:19:35 SwissStopwatch: That may be a fair comment, though I think some people get inconvenienced really easily 23:19:42 DracoOmega: two things 23:19:46 like item destruction, corrosion as well (and those get a lot more complaints than rot, since instead of being able to trade items to fix the damage you're mostly just screwed) 23:19:50 SwissStopwatch: Like, by the existence of half the game 23:19:54 well 23:19:55 first is maybe i guess the ghoul thing but i might have been hilariously unlucky 23:20:05 the second is once you figure out what happens when you kill shamblers 23:20:10 I wonder how many of those people have even seen half the game 23:20:10 Pacra: I've had that happen before; it's rare, but it can happen. 23:20:11 it's trivial to avoid the miasma 23:20:20 Pacra: (the ghoul thing) 23:20:21 so idk if that 'works' 23:20:28 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:20:37 after I realized they spread miasma after death 23:20:39 Pacra: Well, that is sort of intentional. The idea is that in crowds sometimes you have to elect to either keep them alive for a bit maybe (and suffer the other penalties) or are pinned and don't have a choice always? 23:20:45 i never got miasma'd by them again 23:20:55 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:57 Or are slowed by the various sources in there 23:21:02 hmm 23:21:09 im not sure it worked out like that 23:21:11 -!- Helmschank has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:21:15 Like, I think it is ideal if the miasma rarely HITS you, but still forces you to maneuver in ways that you otherwise might not 23:21:16 maybe if they always accompany another monster 23:21:22 or group of monsters 23:21:23 Well, they spawn in... ghoul bands >.> 23:21:31 i couldn't tell 23:21:35 also 23:21:40 since ghouls are slower 23:21:45 Ghouls aren't slower 23:21:51 ghoul (05n) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 124-167 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 3004(rot), 3004(rot) | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, 04eats corpses, evil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 2431 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 23:21:51 %??ghoul 23:21:51 than you i mean 23:21:55 No, they're not. 23:21:55 oh they got sped up 23:21:56 They're not 23:22:03 im being silly i had running boots on 23:22:03 They've been 10 for years 23:22:04 nvm 23:22:05 I don't remember ghouls ever being slow? 23:22:08 Yes, boots of running :P 23:22:18 hm 23:22:19 ghoul (05n) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 125-170 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 3004(rot), 3004(rot) | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 2428. 23:22:19 <|amethyst> %0.9?ghoul 23:22:21 i really like revenants 23:22:22 a lot 23:22:26 I just had an interesting boots of running idea: 23:22:26 they're jerks 23:22:33 The good kind, I hope! 23:22:33 the vampire thralls should be buffed though 23:22:48 instead of permanent, have them evoke for a temporary speed bonus which exhausts and slows the player afterwards. 23:22:57 Like berserk, only without might and HP. 23:23:01 Hmmm... sounds a little fiddly, maybe 23:23:03 so like a really lame version of berserk huh 23:23:03 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:23:06 and lost souls should explode in a 4x4 mild explosion when they enter a monster 23:23:10 hopefully it would last much longer 23:23:16 Pacra: What, for actual damage? 23:23:19 (imo) 23:23:20 Well, it wouldn't be subject to berserk penalties. 23:23:21 yes 23:23:22 mild damage 23:23:26 ...time penalties, I mean. 23:23:28 i think that would be interesting 23:23:42 As long as it isn't Huge Dmg :b 23:23:45 I wonder if that would end up making them better 23:23:50 let the explosion mildly heal monsters in the area of effect too 23:23:57 Ghouls do have a way lower weight than lots of things here, now that I look again 23:24:00 and let lost souls last a big longer 23:24:02 since instead of being boots of running away they're boots of evoke haste 23:24:04 bit* 23:24:21 fr wand of running 23:24:32 SwissStopwatch: s/haste/swiftness/ <_< 23:24:48 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:49 well then it's not really like berserk at all because berserk is haste :P 23:24:58 but does still have the penalties 23:25:04 It's like berserk, only it's not like berserk at all! 23:25:06 \o/ 23:25:12 ehe 23:25:15 I sort of feel like I'd like a better overall 'solution' to rotting, but maybe for now it would be uncontroversial if I just made grouls rot half as often? But probably that still wouldn't make people not want to avoid fighting them 23:25:31 boots of running are pretty OP though, which I guess everyone knows 23:26:32 halving the number of rot attacks probably makes them more than twice as fightable for people with the inclination 23:26:34 Like, I'd rather, say, just reduce them to -1 move speed delay than evokable swiftness, I think 23:26:54 SwissStopwatch: Yes, but I still wonder if making rot a bit like temp mutations wouldn't be better overall 23:27:02 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:13 It's possible it would, although you wouldn't want to amplify the amount of per-hit rot too much then 23:27:58 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:28:04 I think any sort of change is probably hard to know the impact of before actually doing it though 23:28:04 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:18 Yes 23:28:28 like I think halving ghoul rot would make them very fightable for some people but wouldn't change some other people's behavior 23:28:45 Y Mara the hellephant (invisible) 23:28:48 Well, people have been seriously annoyed about things that don't even really affect them in practice 23:28:49 -!- Nareusm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:28:58 Like losing consumables they will literally never use, for example 23:29:01 and maybe the same for the temp rot change 23:29:10 Pacra: what the hellephant :b 23:29:17 Well, temp rot at least means no long-term damage, and I think that's the main issue here? 23:29:58 sure, but of course depending on how much temp rot you get from fighting them they might still be an avoid at all costs monster for some 23:30:04 Well, I suppose 23:30:14 which I think ends up being both a per-player and per-character decision anyway 23:30:18 which.... it already is 23:30:34 ^ if lost soulds explode it should be ghostly fire maybe? 23:31:15 But I haven't actually noticed.... does the rot trigger on hits that do zero damage? 23:31:19 No 23:31:34 right, I guess it didn't feel like that 23:31:47 It's just that ghouls do enough damage that they often get past even decent AC 23:31:50 Unlike, say, necrophages 23:31:52 yes 23:31:58 DracoOmega: I think that just making ghouls rot half as often sounds reasonable 23:32:13 but on theother hand people with high EV still get hit a lot by certain monsters so 23:32:20 elliptic: Yeah, I think I will do that now, and ponder wider things later 23:32:30 there's not really that much asymmetry there, like there is with item destruction 23:32:51 (ghouls would be one of those monsters that can still hit high EV characters a lot, of course) 23:33:19 On the topic of things that annoy people, I had also been thinking of making sticky flame do a lot less item damage (maybe just on impact), but prevent reading scrolls for the duration 23:33:56 Encouraging dropping scrolls is a rather tedious behavior 23:34:12 I can already imagine some good necromutation-style tvs resulting from such a change 23:34:12 Even if we've all done it more times than we can count now, most likely 23:34:13 preventing reading scrolls will only very rarely be relevant though 23:34:24 with current sticky flame sources 23:34:34 I suppose that is probably true 23:34:37 I think in Zot 1-4 it could come up 23:34:39 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:49 But yes, Zot has sticky flame and probably you want to use scrolls there sometimes 23:34:49 since it doesn't last long and most things that make sticky flame are pretty weak 23:35:13 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:35:16 yes but it's not like you are constantly on fire, and most chars will have wands of tele by then 23:35:16 I guess maybe also D:27 then 23:35:23 I suppose it would make mottled dragons kind of harmless, though 23:35:30 so it's only really if you need to scroll of blinking away from dracs 23:35:31 I'm not so sure 23:35:33 which isn't that great anyway 23:35:36 !lg * ktyp=acid ckiller!= ckiller!=a_jelly 23:35:37 12517. rubenflonne the Insei (L7 TeMo), splashed by acid on D:6 on 2013-05-27 04:04:59, with 996 points after 5949 turns and 0:31:09. 23:35:41 !lg * cv>0.12 ktyp=acid ckiller!= ckiller!=a_jelly 23:35:42 313. aniceguy the Poker (L5 OpCK), worshipper of Xom, splashed by a jelly (shapeshifter)'s acid on D:3 on 2013-05-22 14:57:48, with 273 points after 1328 turns and 0:17:43. 23:35:44 getting stickied by one of them early could be pretty bad in some situations 23:35:57 although maybe you won't actually have the scrolls to get out of it by then anyway 23:35:57 maybe threaten scrolls being dropped 23:36:03 Well, I don't think it's likely unless it happens to co-occur with the right group 23:36:06 Which usually it isn't going to 23:36:24 yeah, it's not like they aren't already an enemy that should be treated with special care 23:36:25 Draconian bands at least are plenty threatening on their own 23:36:50 it'd be a different kind of special care though 23:36:53 I'm not really a big fan of the "temporary ailment" idea in general because I think usually it will just be extra messages 23:37:03 "You can't read." 23:37:10 x14 23:37:17 Well, it wouldn't be extra messages in this case, anyway 23:37:23 Since sticky flame already has messages 23:37:31 it's probably less messages than the normal sticky flame one 23:37:34 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:40 Well, I didn't mean to suggest it stop doing damage 23:37:41 DracoOmega: right, not compared to currently, but still messages that don't do anything 23:37:55 DracoOmega: I'm also thinking of wretched stars here... I haven't been very impressed by them in practice 23:38:09 the mutations are *so* unlikely to be relevant before they go away 23:38:17 It does seem a bit that way 23:38:29 Well, I have seen some people seriously loaded up by them, though 23:38:40 But it seems mostly that they don't matter much unless you somehow get totally overwhelmed 23:39:02 I'm not sure they're different from a lot of Crawl's difficulty in that regard 23:39:10 Maybe for them it would be better to bias the list to ailments that actually matter, give fewer, and make the recovery slower? 23:39:25 if you get overwhelmed you're in trouble, if you don't then you can just walk all the damage off 23:39:50 I'm also thinking of the temporary rot idea here 23:39:53 <|amethyst> I thought they used XP to time out now 23:40:10 usually it just won't do anything, I'd imagine 23:40:13 well in this case I mean walk it of by killing some relatively harmless dudes 23:40:15 off* 23:40:19 elliptic: Yes, it would probably need to be fairly slow recovery or a lot of rot or something, I guess 23:40:29 Or possibly it is fine as-is now, even if a lot of people dislike it 23:40:39 Like, I don't actually personally have a problem with the present mechanic, really 23:40:53 ghouls aren't even the most potentially dangerous form of rot maybe 23:41:05 since I think death drake spam in Zot is maybe a lot worse 23:41:27 well death drake spam is bad because of the slowing 23:41:28 death drakes can only rot you 1 hp per turn 23:41:29 not really the rot 23:41:31 but I guess that's -still- only if you get overwhelmed 23:41:39 and on average only 0.5 hp per turn 23:41:51 right, just without the right tools you can end up stuck there a while if you mess up 23:42:19 oh, yeah, it's definitely bad 23:42:20 personally, I find ghouls annoying because I'm never sure whether to cure rot status immediately or to wait until the end of the battle 23:42:30 because I can't actually tell which is better 23:42:45 Yes, this is true, too 23:42:55 I have never quite figured out which is better, either 23:43:07 I think that depends on how good your character is in general 23:43:18 GISing 'faun' gives me lots of pictures of a creepy-looking band 23:43:30 they look sort of german 23:43:31 using curing to cure rot in the middle of a battle might just waste a turn and get me rotted again the next turn, but I'll also probably use curing to cure rotted HP at the end of the battle 23:43:31 Well, it's more a matter of how much does !curing really prevent at that point, compared to the rate of decay while you're rotting? 23:43:58 also on how likely it is you get rerotted quickly 23:44:03 ontoclasm: I'm thinking of the mythological fauns here; that might work as a search modifier <_< 23:44:20 (with a couple of hints of fauns as they've appeared in, say, D&D, but mostly the mythological sort) 23:44:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:44:37 (well, they're satyrs in D&D, IIRC) 23:44:37 I'm sort of pessimistic about the rot mechanic for ghouls in general 23:44:41 it doesn't even make any sense 23:44:47 it's not like player ghouls get this attack 23:45:12 I wonder if player ghouls getting a rot attack would make people any more likely to play them. 23:45:13 Well, I wouldn't object to them losing it entirely, but I feared that might be too large a change as far as some people were concerned? 23:45:15 Somehow, I don't think so. 23:45:21 Grunt: Well, it's meaningless against monsters 23:45:24 Since the monsters will just die 23:45:25 <|amethyst> players seem to get very confused by the comments in the default init.txt 23:45:28 if we have enough other undead of substance, I'd prefer to just remove ghoul as a real monster, yeah 23:45:37 i know what fauns look like, i play d&d xD 23:45:38 it's also really weird how strong they are compared with other player race monsters 23:45:42 yes, you're too busy clawing things to death to notice the rot 23:45:57 -!- pelotr0n is now known as pelotron 23:45:57 3-4 castings of dispel strong 23:46:04 elliptic: Well, I think they have some relevance as a big beefy melee thing, even if they didn't have special abilities (but would be comparatively boring, of course....) 23:46:06 elliptic: clearly players are actually greater nagas, greater mummies, uh... 23:46:25 deeper elves 23:46:26 top tier deep elves <_< 23:46:29 if they're just a big beefy melee thing, then the only distinction they have from everything else in crypt is that they move at normal speed 23:46:30 |amethyst: mainly people just don't know that they *are* comments 23:46:34 <|amethyst> elliptic: yeah 23:46:44 SwissStopwatch: Most things in Crypt move at normal speed or faster! :P 23:46:51 mummy priests 23:46:53 not sure if writing an explanation of this at the top would help or not 23:47:02 well 23:47:11 how different would they really be from an ettin zombie, say 23:47:17 Yes, probably not a great deal 23:47:25 Well, they are a lot more durable, I guess 23:47:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-1039-g7abf7a0: Make monster ghouls inflict rot only 1/2 as often 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7abf7a02a5ad 23:47:32 03DracoOmega 07* 0.13-a0-1040-gfb76507: Nudge down ghoul frequency in Crypt slightly 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fb76507be272 23:47:35 they move faster and regen and have somewhat better defenses Ig uess 23:47:41 and also use items 23:47:41 ghoul (05n) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 124-167 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 3004(rot), 3004(rot) | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, 04eats corpses, evil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 2431 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 23:47:41 %??ghoul 23:47:44 ettin zombie (07z) | Spd: 8 | HD: 12 | HP: 83-122 | AC/EV: 7/0 | Dam: 41, 41 | 07undead, two-weapon, evil | Res: 06magic(16), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 484 | Sz: Giant | Int: plant. 23:47:44 %??ettin zombie 23:47:51 so that's actually a fair bit right there I guess 23:47:53 -!- reaver has quit [] 23:48:12 oh right, the MR 23:48:14 !lg * gh won mhp<124 23:48:14 1. elliptic the Destroyer (L20 GhFE), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-14 01:46:48, with 1478296 points after 60099 turns and 6:02:09. 23:48:17 is actually a pretty big difference 23:48:22 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:48:23 that ghoul wasn't a real ghoul clearly 23:48:24 too low HP 23:48:31 hahaha 23:48:39 Well, I think present ones are certainly better than 0.7 ghouls 23:48:45 Which were arguably weaker than necrophages 23:48:49 sure 23:48:50 you're not a real ghoul if you don't have 124 HP at XL14 23:48:58 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:49:18 Hmmm... what else do player ghouls do, I wonder? 23:49:27 they eat shadow dragons 23:49:32 and ugly things 23:49:32 Hahaha 23:49:41 which other people can do but shouldn't 23:49:45 this is the defining characteristic of player ghouls as far as I am concerned :P 23:49:59 the defining characteristic is that their stats are terrible 23:50:07 I actually like ghouls (the player race, I mean) 23:50:09 ??ghoul reasons[3 23:50:09 ghoul reasons[3/4]: You can eat shadow dragons! 23:50:14 I am genuinely unsure why they are as unpopular as they are 23:50:15 1learn move ghoul_reasons[3] ghoul_reasons[1 23:50:22 fortunately this is Crawl so that's not necessarily as much of a disadvantage as you might think 23:50:23 DracoOmega: how much have you played ghouls? 23:50:29 I have won... 4, I think? 23:50:34 Huh. 23:50:37 DracoOmega: afaict it is because people worry about the rotting too much 23:50:38 One of them was even an ice stormer 23:50:47 Well, your rot is nearly irrelevant 23:50:48 DracoOmega: the same way people worry about hunger on other races 23:50:50 yes 23:50:56 THE ROT COST!!!!!!! 23:51:00 You can gain like 50 hp back in one floor with lots of corpses 23:51:07 they don't realize this though 23:51:12 because they don't play it to find out :P 23:51:13 ghouls are actually really good for going fastish on a normal run 23:51:18 Yeah, I do think I had wondered how extended would be on a ghoul 23:51:23 But really, only Pan in Tomb even cause you to lose hp 23:51:32 And I just saved a couple floors of Zot to do inbetween and all was well 23:51:38 I'm quite slow and plodding, but I won one with a pretty low turncount and realtime by just not doing anything special 23:51:38 * Grunt remembers his poor GhWz, who died of boredom in Tomb. 23:51:54 Hell actually has more corpses than you'd realize until you can eat all the necrophages and shadow dragons 23:52:32 elliptic: I suppose I do recall now arguing with a friend of mine who thought the rot was a major problem (even after PLAYING some for a while) 23:52:48 i never play ghouls because they have no notable good qualities afaict 23:52:53 And I couldn't quite get through to him that there was no rush to keep your hp from being rotted ,since you'd just heal it soon afterward 23:53:03 ontoclasm: They have amazing resistances and good overall apt 23:53:04 I mean, I do feel that ghoul rot is a little silly 23:53:04 They have undead resistances 23:53:06 ontoclasm: you don't like claw attacks and ultimyte resistances? 23:53:12 *ultymate 23:53:14 ontoclasm: And they heal on kills even without Makhleb! 23:53:16 because it is nearly irrelevant as you said... it is just good flavor 23:53:16 ...or whatever it is :b 23:53:18 ??gham 23:53:18 badwiki gham guide[1/1]: THE ULTYMATE RESISTANCES OF THE GHOUL COMBINED WITH POWYRFUL CLAW ATTACKS + RANGED SUPERIORITY FROM OF THE ARKANE MARKSPERSON MAKES THE GHAM THE POWER CLASS OF 0.8, 0.10, AND 0.11. GO FOR SPLINT MAIL FOR MAXIMUM PROTECTION + FLEXIBILITY // - THIS GUIDE BY SLAUGHTRO POWER CRAWLMASTER X 23:53:45 the rN+++ came up a lot more than I thought it would 23:53:53 (rN is useful???) 23:53:59 Well, rN is better than it used to be now! 23:54:06 i guess rC++ is okay 23:54:06 shockingly the answer is yes if you get it for free 23:54:08 Especially in Crypt, I think 23:54:09 DracoOmega: before your changes :b 23:54:15 especially in Vaults:5 23:54:25 just tab into shadow dragons, as many as you want at a time 23:54:26 Yes, rN was always better than a lot of people said 23:54:30 DracoOmega: my last ghoul kept being annoyed by new V monsters with holy weapons :( especially one warden had one, it was very scary 23:54:36 Because a lot of people translate 'can get by fine without it' to 'useless' 23:54:40 vault warlords!!! 23:54:40 oh god yes 23:54:59 well I am not really that impressed by "just tab into shadow dragons" since I do that with no rN too usually :P 23:55:06 I guess actually that's something Draconians and unholy races need to worry about now 23:55:24 !lg . kaux=~dragon 23:55:24 6. SGrunt the Cutter (L3 HECK), worshipper of Xom, slain by a gnoll (a +3,+2 spear of dragon slaying) on D:2 on 2013-03-31 19:25:12, with 132 points after 1714 turns and 0:04:09. 23:55:29 !lg . dr kaux=~dragon 23:55:29 1. SGrunt the Brawler (L16 DrMo), worshipper of Makhleb, slain by Norris (a +4,+0 spear of dragon slaying) on Swamp:3 on 2012-07-05 21:48:49, with 126527 points after 50767 turns and 3:41:35. 23:55:40 because I definitely had lots of terrifying moments involving wardens with slay drac bardiches and holy battleaxes and etc 23:55:43 -!- johlstei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:56 Interesting 23:55:58 not that the specific weapon actually matters much 23:56:18 I don't actually know whether newV is more likely to have dangerous stuff with holy/slay drac weapons 23:56:18 Well, wardens were the most common killer in Vaults during the tournament, last I looked (though not by much) 23:56:24 !lg * t vaults s=ckiller 23:56:25 But that seems fitting 23:56:25 222 games for * (t vaults): 26x a vault warden, 24x a stone giant, 18x a yaktaur captain, 10x a tentacled monstrosity, 9x a centaur warrior, 6x a frost giant, 6x a fire giant, 5x an orc warrior, 5x a deep troll, 4x an ettin, 4x a titan, 4x an ogre, 4x a yaktaur, 4x Saint Roka, 4x a slime creature, 4x Frederick, 3x a vault guard, 3x a lich, 3x a deep troll earth mage, 3x Jorgrun, 3x a player ghost,... 23:56:26 !tkillers vaults 5 23:56:28 a vault warden, a yaktaur captain, a vault warden, a stone giant, a stone giant 23:56:39 a vault warden that gets good gear can outmelee a -lot- of characters in vaults 23:56:41 DracoOmega: most common on v:1 and v:3 at least 23:56:52 Since they ARE the 'greater naga' equivalent for the branch, in a sense 23:56:55 !tkillers abyss 5 23:56:57 a small abomination, a starcursed mass, a starcursed mass, a spatial maelstrom, a tentacled starspawn 23:57:17 and then it becomes a matter of whether you can escape, which the warden also interferes with 23:57:28 flayed ghosts are gonna be OP in zigs 23:57:40 that sounds terrifying 23:57:44 Pacra: I actually liked evilmike's suggestion of making clarity protect against it 23:57:50 You are terrified of the flayed ghost! 23:57:52 Since it is a mental effect in a sense 23:58:09 I don't really like that 23:58:16 people already don't know what clarity does 23:58:28 adding something else random to it isn't going to help 23:59:41 it sounds rather unintuitive 23:59:47 I suppose that is also a point. It works against mislead and mismerize currently, yes? 23:59:56 Does it work against fear?