00:00:27 -!- Unflexed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:01:41 elliptic: I was going to give grotesk `small wings` instead of big wings. Start flying for free, but with a shorter duration and no stop option 00:05:29 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12.1-6-ga599f7d 00:05:30 that coc vault looks extremely boring 00:05:31 st_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 00:05:37 !messages 00:05:39 (1/1) elliott said (22m 17s ago): it fucking happened 00:05:48 Pre-release branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12.1-6-ga599f7d (34) 00:06:07 I know right 00:06:55 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-643-gb320de5 (34) 00:09:10 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:10:44 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:07 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-643-gb320de5 (34) 00:13:49 other comments: there doesn't seem to be any reason Dispater's position isn't randomised 00:14:02 the door formations in Geh are bizarre 00:15:28 dispater's placement is a reference to doom 00:15:47 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:16:06 is that a doom map copy 00:16:09 would anyone object to me adding an ability called Hover that makes you Fly? I don't want to overload ABIL_FLY 00:16:36 http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/E3M8:_Dis 00:16:43 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16:51 erm, actually, I don't want to use perma flight 00:17:28 I'm sure the reference would remain it was randomised 00:20:28 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-644-g989b9b1: Several improvements to cellular layouts 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 147+ 79-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=989b9b1b1848 00:26:29 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:28:23 Is it easy to make an ability take zero time to use? 00:28:55 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 00:31:29 yes 00:32:04 Is this a dumb mechanic that I should not be introducing? (Taking flight instantaneously) 00:32:07 (look for abflag_instant) 00:32:48 doesn't seem like something that's likely to be particularly useful really 00:33:55 What are the current uses for fly? Escaping over liquids, avoiding traps, getting a stealth boost, spamming static discharge, not fumbling 00:34:37 -!- r00ster84 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:35:15 -!- rebthor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:35:21 I'll sleep on it. 00:35:36 not dying to jorgrun is good 00:35:59 -!- bh has quit [Quit: !tell me if you have ideas] 00:37:37 ideasa for grotesks? 00:39:06 maybe just for anything 00:39:21 ....probably better not abuse the !tell privileges too much though. >_> 00:39:32 hh 00:39:42 i'll send him just one i guess 00:39:44 !tell bh what if you marketed keeping rocks as pets 00:39:45 elliott: OK, I'll let bh know. 00:39:54 hahaha 00:41:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 00:44:41 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:27 -!- Mixolyde has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:45:40 -!- Thalfon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:45:42 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-644-g989b9b1 00:46:47 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:22 elliott: I still don't get how you sell that, since rocks are as cheap as, well, rocks ... 00:47:51 you can get them out of the GROUND 00:47:59 pretty much wherever you try to dig 00:48:08 in my experience 00:48:21 or, you could look in a creek if you wanted smoother ones 00:49:06 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:45 !tell bh maybe flying could be what switches between a statue-like form and a less statue-like form for grotesks? i don't know 00:50:46 lainiw: OK, I'll let bh know. 00:50:55 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:50:55 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 00:53:09 lainiw: I think if you have anything else related to what he's been talking about that would be fine to !tell; just, if you've got a long rant maybe blog it or something and !tell him a link ;-) 00:56:38 oh, yeah 01:04:27 -!- Fear has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:07:41 pastebin / sprunge is good for that or maybe there should be a wiki page for gargoyle anyway 01:08:34 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:13:33 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 01:21:17 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:29:49 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 01:31:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:35:17 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:37:49 -!- Ark is now known as Guest59739 01:45:02 -!- gowby has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:48:21 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:37 -!- aa99 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:53:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54:41 -!- SchwaWarrior has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:02:24 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:02:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05:35 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:08:53 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:10:41 kilobyte you bastard 02:10:56 the pinkification... has begun... 02:12:07 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:12:28 -!- bogabada has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:15:02 -!- Silurio_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:16:14 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 02:18:22 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:22:32 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:04 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:29:32 -!- ahpla has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:33:05 moin guys 02:33:16 trunk page updated 02:33:20 mantis is ok, i think 02:33:34 anything else not updated to 0.12 yet on CDO? 02:41:32 we need more current screenshots, btw 02:41:44 newest on the screenshots page is 0.8 02:46:27 Napkin: "1) Go to Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup 0.12 Pre-Release" (in DGL) 02:46:40 should probably be 0.12.1 now :) 02:46:44 ah, the main menu 02:47:12 thanks, done 02:47:27 good job preparing the tourney website, btw, elliptic 02:47:35 thanks 02:47:52 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:50:26 -!- dupo has quit [] 02:51:52 Pacra: that's 6magenta. 13THIS is pink. 02:52:12 (unless you have no IRC colours :p) 02:53:34 -!- sacje has quit [Quit: sacje] 02:54:56 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:51 -!- notid has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:07:49 -!- Nomi has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 03:09:58 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:12:03 -!- Wolpertinger has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:17:08 -!- gowby has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:21:55 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:42 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:24:57 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:25:17 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 03:29:44 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:31:18 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 03:43:16 -!- phnxmc has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:51:01 -!- kilobyte has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:36 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:58 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:54:37 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:03 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:05:15 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:01 -!- ekix has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:11:11 -!- hyperbolic has joined ##crawl-dev 04:11:44 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:12:26 -!- Keskital1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:14:58 -!- neunon has quit [*.net *.split] 04:15:01 -!- neuwiz has quit [*.net *.split] 04:15:01 -!- Staplegun has quit [*.net *.split] 04:15:01 -!- varmin has quit [*.net *.split] 04:15:01 -!- buki has quit [*.net *.split] 04:15:17 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16:23 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:35 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:18:20 Sirrick (L22 TrHu) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1787 failed. (Zot (ZotDef)) 04:21:02 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [*.net *.split] 04:21:02 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 04:21:02 -!- jschuster has quit [*.net *.split] 04:21:02 -!- Kalma has quit [*.net *.split] 04:21:02 -!- sorbius has quit [*.net *.split] 04:21:05 -!- Sabaki has quit [*.net *.split] 04:21:05 -!- Moredread has quit [*.net *.split] 04:21:05 -!- wumpus has quit [*.net *.split] 04:21:05 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 04:22:12 -!- Silurio_ is now known as Silurio 04:36:34 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:38:50 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 04:43:55 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45:13 -!- Vandal has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:51:25 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:59:13 -!- SchwaWarrior has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:00:27 -!- NotSoFatTony has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:19:07 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:22:42 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:49 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:25:19 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:32 kilobyte: i stand corrected 05:40:51 in the brave new magenta world 05:42:40 Is there anything in the logfiles that indicates whether a game was played on tiles or not? 05:42:53 sqllog.pl seems to cater for that case but I can't see any evidence in the logs. 05:44:17 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:44:53 !lg * s=tiles 05:44:55 2266456 games for *: 1672389x false, 594067x true 05:46:31 Cool, but how does that information manifest in the logfile data? 05:46:31 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:16 The code in sqllog.pl indicates there should be a tiles field but I've yet to see one - https://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/blob/master/sqllog.pl#L430 05:48:27 Which makes me wonder whether that information is pulled in from elsewhere. 05:56:35 broquaint: the tiles field will only be written if it's tiles, so maybe you only looked at console logs 05:57:32 -!- gowby has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:58:36 Thanks, edlothiol, I didn't think there were separate logs for tiles + console e.g http://dobrazupa.org/meta/0.12/ 05:59:55 there aren't 06:00:18 and those logfiles contain tiles fields 06:01:25 (I meant console loglines when I wrote console logs) 06:01:51 Oh yeah, sorry, I was looking at CDO logs x_x 06:02:01 Thanks again, edlothiol :) 06:23:02 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:24:05 -!- DeathrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:26:08 So apropos of that I've put together a website I'll be "making public" before the tournament much might be of interest to some - http://soupstash.broquaint.com/ 06:30:43 -!- Xiberia has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:31:47 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:55 -!- Guest59739 has quit [Quit: Quitte] 06:48:15 Pacra: updating colours is _always_ controversial and causes complaints, no matter if one has valid reasons or not. For starters, the game "feels" weird. 06:48:42 Pacra: have you looked how to recolour everything that's _not_ an artefact? 06:53:36 broquaint: that looks pretty cool 06:54:24 edlothiol: Thanks :) 06:54:24 kilobyte: i mean I understand the change 06:54:42 i just somewhat enjoy playing the part of 'disgruntled reactionary old player' 06:55:03 -!- marcmagus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:57:39 that's what I mean: old players are known to dislike this, and should have a way to configure it to their tastes 06:58:56 there's an easy way: item_glyph += Axes.*artefact : white, but that 1. forces all arts to a colour (passable), and 2. forxes fixedarts as well (less so) 07:02:35 -!- tgcid has quit [Client Quit] 07:03:38 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:07 !tell dpeg you can bump to make -j9 on dis, it has been migrated to a box ~3.5 times faster than the old piece of crap 07:08:08 kilobyte: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 07:08:37 kilobyte: wait that would.. make all axe artifacts white? 07:08:54 couldn't i just do item_glyph += Axes : darkgrey 07:08:55 Pacra: yes, that's why I'm looking for a better solution 07:09:12 for my previous drab LOS-messing up predilections 07:09:23 that makes all axes darkgrey, including artefacts 07:09:51 ah 07:09:54 : \ 07:11:21 -!- Elynae is now known as elaine 07:11:34 -!- elaine is now known as Elynae 07:11:52 thanks to a lack of anchoring in most people's config, if I added "non-artefact" as a tag, it'd match "artefact"... 07:11:57 What's a good filetype to set in vim to get nice syntax highlight for crawlrc? 07:12:22 Going to start merging MarvinPA's and elliptic's rc's now :) 07:12:28 * kilobyte sics an Emacs user at Mattias. 07:12:37 (ノ｀Д´)ノ彡┻━┻ 07:12:37 that is like combining matter and antimatter 07:12:46 elliott: Fun stuff! 07:13:16 How do they differ? I did like MarvinPA's defaults with a few mods like autoattack stop set to 50 07:13:44 kilobyte: ive been meaning to make a patch for ascii shield representations 07:13:52 well marvinpa's has a lot of bells and whistles 07:14:05 and elliptic's is generally simpler and has fewer warnings and autoexclusions and stuff 07:14:08 and also marvinpa uses unicode :p 07:14:17 buckler the latin letter bilabial click, shield greek small letter theta, large shield capital greek theta 07:14:38 ?, ?, ? 07:14:48 -!- Elynae has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:14:56 unicode mmmm 07:14:59 that got mispasted 07:15:05 yes i can see 07:16:06 oop 07:17:19 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:22:50 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:03 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:33 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:24:53 Pacra: but thetas are eyes... 07:25:11 not sure how to strike balance between fancy overrides and consistency -- and, above all, spectators not talking crap about you :p 07:26:02 my only item replacement is ➹ for ammo, as confusing a pile of stones with a dancing weapon is _not nice_. 07:27:27 i made my dancing weapons '7' 07:27:35 so, coloured trees i guess 07:32:36 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:34:44 -!- tgcid has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:48 but 7 is for treefolk... 07:42:01 -!- ark__ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:16 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:42:34 What do the ood_interesting option do? Can't find it in the options manual 07:44:04 not sure what it does, I'm quite certain what it does not: exist 07:44:33 both elliptic and xw has it in their rc's 07:44:39 http://crawl.develz.org/configs/trunk/elliptic.rc 07:44:55 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:45:01 %git f06d5614 07:45:02 03kilobyte * 0.11-a0-1647-gf06d561: Optioncide: ood_interesting, rare_interesting. 10(1 year ago, 5 files, 0+ 46-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f06d56148678 07:45:36 thanks 07:48:05 done with the rc merge :) woho 08:10:30 part of another tiles looks like green crystalls somewhere by sokolix 08:11:53 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:13:39 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:14:49 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 08:18:40 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:24 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:39 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 08:25:42 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 08:28:36 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:34:39 -!- Sorbius_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:37:30 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:09 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 08:53:22 -!- jschuste` is now known as jschuster 08:55:17 -!- thighhigh has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 08:58:02 -!- spriseris has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:44 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:02:59 -!- jday_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:34 -!- voker57 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:05 -!- wump is now known as wumpus 09:10:12 -!- wumpus has quit [Changing host] 09:12:37 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:41 -!- Celsitudo has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:22:22 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:22:45 can anyone think of any weird situations with subvaults that might *rely* on inheriting a tile set by a TILE: declaration? (or tile('foo') in Lua) 09:23:28 i can solve #7021 by resetting the tile idx when vaults are applied but i'm assuming this will probably screw something else up :P 09:23:45 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:05 this bug has been fixed in the past. Twice. 09:26:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 09:31:19 -!- ystael has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:33:07 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:45 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 09:40:43 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:40:48 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:46 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 09:44:12 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:15 third time lucky? ;) 09:44:44 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44:54 Anyone here? 09:44:56 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:45:00 helloo 09:45:05 hey 09:46:24 You guys removed all the vault-defined monsters? 09:46:31 heh 09:47:17 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-645-gd2c170e: Reset tile on dungeon_terrain_changed 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d2c170ed5392 09:47:19 You do realize that just put Grunt out of a job, right? 09:48:20 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:24 Lightli: well, the patch was a bit controversial, it got pushed but not everyone agreed with everything it did 09:49:53 i think it's just a bit difficult to separate out which bits were necessary or not 09:50:07 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:50:19 it's probably good for the long term 09:50:28 and there are still plenty of vault-defined monsters in play 09:51:06 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:14 No more archer statues, for one 09:51:20 -!- lordfrikk has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 23.0a1/20130507030948]] 09:51:52 it was a good change 09:52:03 LexAckson: it's definitely good to apply some sort of standard to incoming vaults but we don't want those standards to be too draconian; it'll put off new vault contributors for one thing, and personally i don't see anything wrong with the occasional joke or bit of flavour that has no gameplay merit 09:52:45 What vault monsters are left? I know glowing angels were left alone, for one. 09:53:10 well, i didn't think there way anything too wrong with the status quo, but i didn't maintain it 09:53:16 they weren't 09:53:51 MarvinPA: Ok, so what vault-defined monsters ARE left? 09:54:42 if we were going to cut *all* content that had no gameplay value then a whole bunch of stuff would have to be targetted outside of vault redefined monster, it'd be cutting content for no reason 09:54:45 no idea, look in the vault files 09:55:12 mostly portal vault ones 09:55:39 my young halflings are still there i think 09:55:57 also, i feel like i saw an archer statue when i was playing last night 09:56:04 they're just halflings 09:56:19 they're renamed? 09:56:22 <|amethyst> grep -R name: dat/des 09:56:48 i noticed some things got removed that were just renames 09:56:57 (i'd also argue that to a lot of non-pro players, exploration and discovery *is* gameplay, and purely flavour content is part of that) 09:57:12 MarvinPA: Like Purgy or the weaker siren? 09:57:27 purgy is a unique 09:57:36 i think the sickly sirens were left alone 09:58:10 mumra: well vaults can do flavour just fine without renaming things meaninglessly 09:59:16 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:51 So basically, every vault-defined monster outside of a portal vault is gone? 10:00:14 Even the bats? 10:01:12 (note: any bad will from this was cancelled out by removing nausea, so I'll deal) 10:01:26 Lightli: definitely not every, but yeah a lot including the bats 10:01:37 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:38 YOU MONSTERS 10:02:35 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:04:10 Lightli: what vault monsters are left? minotaurs in labyrinthes! 10:04:21 Minotaurs aren't vault-defined 10:04:39 (not entirely a joke, IIRC the only rationaly for keeping Minos during the great dwarf-war of yesteryear was labs) 10:05:01 Ancient champions are still around! (Though I have also made them into non-vault monsters in a branch I'm working on, incidentally) 10:05:03 DON'T MENTION THE DWARF WAR 10:05:21 <|amethyst> also all the withered/demonic/petrified plants 10:05:34 spriggan baker is still around so there is no need to complain 10:05:40 mumra: TOO LATE! 10:05:43 <|amethyst> various statues 10:05:52 Bat vault was a piece of Crawl history, though :P 10:06:20 <|amethyst> weaker versions of monsters (decayed bog body, young spriggan druid, etc) 10:07:59 i think this is the problem: whatever standard the patch was trying to assert, it seems quite inconsistent in its application 10:08:30 I think it was less inconsistent than subjective 10:08:34 yyeah 10:08:38 ie: Ones that st_ himself felt were the worst 10:08:38 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:49 Which is not the same list someone else might have drawn 10:08:57 For instance, I would have been fine with archer statues staying 10:09:02 Even if I disagree with some of the removals, it's hard to make an objective list of this stuff 10:09:16 Without going TOO far, anyway 10:09:31 nobody else stepped up to improve vault standards, st_ did... even dpeg said as much on the patch -- it's not the list he would have chosen, but the important thing is the spirit of the work, done by someone experienced with vaults 10:09:31 that seems fine, since previously there was no standard 10:10:17 the thing is it's made people think that vault-redefined monsters are the problem but in fact that's not what it was, it was supposed to be more generally about quality control 10:10:37 well, sure 10:10:51 the damage is surely limited as i doubt more than 20 people even know about the patch's existence 10:10:58 if people think it's about a thing that it's not about then they will be wrong, yes :P 10:11:13 ? 10:12:07 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:13:05 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:13:33 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:13:34 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 10:13:42 if one of the goals of stone soup is to encourage community contributions, i think it would be good to actively avoid confusion about what standards are actually being applied to contributions 10:14:27 <|amethyst> as dpeg said, the deletions don't make sense unless we establish guideless afterwards 10:14:33 <|amethyst> well, he didn't say quite that 10:14:38 sure, and applying some standards is a good start towards that 10:15:02 i mean writing out "this is what makes a good vault is incredibly difficult 10:15:08 <|amethyst> probably some of the deleted things would be acceptable under the new guidelines and could be readmitted 10:15:11 beyond what the design documentation already covers 10:15:28 <|amethyst> I'd really like to see the rogues' gallery return 10:15:29 so i don't think some kind of formal guideline process makes any sense at all 10:15:52 that's a pretty bad example given that its removal was okayed by its author :P 10:16:00 <|amethyst> elliott: Not a process, but something people could refer to like they refer to the philosophy document 10:17:30 <|amethyst> elliott: that's why I don't make vault decisions :) 10:18:11 <|amethyst> hm... maybe I should add these april fools tiles to UNUSED/ 10:18:27 -!- Wolf is now known as Guest74152 10:18:42 Well, the inevitable thing here is that different people want different things for the game. One person's 'unnecessary and pointless' is another's 'amusing and flavorful', whether each camp thinks the other is objectively wrong or not. 10:19:20 -!- hyperbolic is now known as elliptic 10:19:46 -!- Guest74152 is now known as Wolf_Crawl 10:20:45 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:40 <|amethyst> !tell ontoclasm you did both the april fool's tiles for me, right? Think I should add them to UNUSED so I don't lose them? 10:21:41 |amethyst: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 10:21:56 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:22:07 <|amethyst> I guess I could check my IRC logs 10:22:30 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:10 <|amethyst> !seen Henzell 10:23:11 Sorry |amethyst, that person is dead. 10:23:36 <|amethyst> I have no idea why that broke 10:23:59 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:30 Actually, quick question 10:24:38 Why did you guys nerf spammals? 10:24:49 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:07 damn, this vault tiles stuff is tricky 10:25:08 DracoOmega: right, that's why we have stuff like "megabat" existing for one version and then getting deleted again -- someone added it, people argued about it a lot, then someone stepped up and removed it even though there certainly wasn't any consensus agreement or anything 10:25:36 it'd be really useful to have e.g. "LFEAT: green_crystal_wall = foo_tile" 10:26:04 s/LFEAT/LFEATTILE/ 10:26:25 elliptic: Yes, I think the best that one can reasonably hope for here is that we MOSTLY agree MOST of the time 10:26:59 was there ever a killerbat? 10:27:45 Well, the funny thing about megabat is that this is ACTUALLY the scientific name for many perfectly mundane bats, but it just SOUNDED so silly 10:29:10 Also, did Lear's Chain Mail need to be +27? 10:29:26 That's beyond stupid 10:29:43 Well, it's not chain mail anymore 10:30:08 btw bring back megabats 10:30:15 (i feel this topic more productive) 10:30:16 It covers helm, foot, and glove slots 10:30:22 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:23 oh 10:30:42 So the loss of base AC is compensated for with the massive enchantment, I presume 10:30:43 if you're going to make unhelpful comments about dev-related stuff can you actually read the commits that you're commenting on 10:30:53 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:30:54 yes sorry 10:31:08 <|amethyst> Lightli: also, it means minotaurs, tengu, etc can't wear it 10:31:34 Poor tengu 10:32:21 it's obviously very good if you find it on D:4 on a char who can wear it 10:32:54 Yeah, it's a ton of AC. It's sort of interesting how it is both very good and also likely to be eventually replaced 10:33:23 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:40 <|amethyst> the thing you lose isn't three slots worth of AC, it's three slots worth of randart properties 10:33:49 <|amethyst> (and running) 10:33:50 Or ego properties, yes 10:34:12 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:43 <|amethyst> (four slots I guess, since Lear doesn't provide any itself either) 10:34:44 |amethyst: not really randarts (most chars don't find three good randart armours...), but egos too, and you get much less AC from armour skill 10:35:23 elliptic: Well, you don't really need to find THREE. A single one that's sufficiently good could be motivation to swap out eventually 10:35:28 <|amethyst> elliptic: the armor skill thing is just because of the base AC, right? I mean, armour doesn't help helmets and gloves does it? 10:35:31 DracoOmega: sure 10:35:35 |amethyst: It does 10:35:38 <|amethyst> oh 10:35:38 |amethyst: it does help those 10:35:46 |amethyst: It just doesn't help them enough to be worth training JUST for them 10:35:58 <|amethyst> lower proportion than for body armour? 10:36:01 no 10:36:04 Well, they have low base AC 10:36:07 That's all 10:36:15 so compared with plate armour, it is 8 base AC instead of 13 10:36:16 <|amethyst> rounded together, not individually? 10:36:19 together 10:36:24 <|amethyst> ah 10:36:45 <|amethyst> so the only thing body armour AC is better for is GDR? 10:36:51 yes 10:37:06 <|amethyst> this is why I'm a bad player :) 10:37:15 <|amethyst> (well, not this in particular) 10:37:35 I doubt knowing details like this has anything to do with anyone being a good/bad player, really... 10:37:41 <|amethyst> true 10:37:47 <|amethyst> isn't it unfair that draconians can't train armour then? 10:38:03 what notion of fairness? 10:38:07 <|amethyst> I mean, not that it would be terribly useful, but it's not useless 10:38:10 Well, it wouldn't make much difference 10:38:18 (Possibly it might also be misleading? Not sure) 10:38:22 <|amethyst> I guess that's true... it would just be a trap 10:38:24 it's true that they could get a tiny boost if they raised armour skill high, but it's not like dracs are suffering because of this 10:38:28 it'd be unfair to trick players into wasting xp on it :P 10:38:36 -!- inpho has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:23 ??armour skill 10:39:24 armour skill[1/2]: Armour skill defrays the penalties associated with heavy armours, and increases the effectiveness of your armour by 1/22nd of its base value per level of skill. 10:39:47 So an extra 2 AC with 22 skill? 10:39:53 with full drac armour, you'd need to raise armour skill to 5.5 for 1 AC... quite possibly worth it late game 10:40:02 Oh yeah, cloak 10:40:03 oh they can't wear helmets 10:40:07 ? 10:40:11 just hats? 10:40:16 Yeah, just hats 10:40:16 <|amethyst> yeah, just hats 10:40:26 so 7.33 skill for 1 AC 10:40:39 think of the real crime 10:40:49 if they could train armour ##crawl would get asked why at least twice a day 10:40:56 <|amethyst> 1learn add draconian_pr0n <+elliptic> just hats? <+DracoOmega> Yeah, just hats <+|amethyst> yeah, just hats 10:41:12 -!- kek has left ##crawl-dev 10:41:12 elliott: Yes, I suspect you may be right 10:41:17 On the other hand, education! :P 10:41:25 could tell them it's for the gdr 10:41:32 That is not education 10:41:37 it's better! 10:41:50 elliottducation 10:44:10 -!- Lightli has quit [] 10:45:06 -!- Wolf_Crawl has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51:25 -!- laan is now known as Laany 10:53:39 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55:14 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:08 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:58:56 -!- bmfx has quit [Client Quit] 11:02:33 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:04:26 Sirrick (L22 TrHu) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1787 failed. (Zot (ZotDef)) 11:04:55 Sirrick (L22 TrHu) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1787 failed. (Zot (ZotDef)) 11:05:27 -!- Wolf_Crawl has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:05:27 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:40 DracoOmega: I did not press the discussion about reverting some of vaults st_ removed, but that's because the discussion went too heated even for me, not because I don't give a damn. 11:05:55 and goddamned_bats is at the top of my list 11:06:12 not because it's the best vault, but precisely because of its relevance wrt Crawl's history 11:06:45 and also because bats there don't suffer from either corpse or "comes into view" bugs 11:07:38 of course i'd rather try and fix that "comes into view" issue than delete vaults purely because of it anyway, it seems to apply to a bunch of situations that should be technically fine 11:08:04 but i guess it's not so easy to fix 11:08:26 -!- Sorbius has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:08:32 "fruity bat" might be indeed too gimmicky, but most of the rest are fine. And we have fire bats as real monsters (ie, "good" by st_'s definition) because of this vault :) 11:08:50 it's mostly because there's no known genus for redefined monsters 11:09:08 <|amethyst> re: history, I think all references to mountain dwarves are now gone 11:09:19 this is one of the good things about vault-redefined monsters: it's a good way for vault designers to quickly prototype ideas without needing a coder, and sometimes those ideas are good enough to develop further 11:09:31 yes, "dwarf mountain bat" is on the gimmicky side 11:09:47 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:10:01 <|amethyst> since Okawaru went back to just being a drunkard, and the caged MD with a description telling of the war with the orcs is gone 11:10:04 <|amethyst> err 11:10:06 btw can we remove fire bat monsters? they are pretty terrible IMO 11:10:08 (couldn't they name the species with the other adjective order? :p) 11:10:08 <|amethyst> s/Okawaru/Wiglaf/ 11:10:20 since they don't do anything interesting and also don't really exist 11:12:27 by "don't really exist" you mean "aren't a real-life bat species"? 11:14:13 i am like 90% sure elliptic didn't mean that 11:14:32 flying fire crabs! 11:14:36 no, wait, never mind 11:14:42 I am 100% sure I didn't mean that 11:14:51 I mean that 99% of games don't see them 11:15:03 and those that do see them don't care about them because they do nothing 11:15:13 yeah, i see 11:16:21 apparently they're an abyssal spawn and not even that unlikely there, seems like a strange place for them 11:16:23 bah, st_ could at least have done that vandalism in piecemeal commits... 11:17:12 kilobyte: can we not call it vandalism when someone spends a lot of time an effort trying to improve crawl? 11:18:03 actually most of the removed vaults were not super awesome 11:18:03 how exactly a blind deletion job is an improvement? If it was based on some actual reasons, I would agree. 11:18:03 you may not agree with all the changes, fine, but others do 11:18:12 you might as well call everything you don't agree with vandalism 11:18:17 Rolling sleeping boulder beetle by Sandman25 11:18:21 the patch seemed a lot more silly before actually looking at the details 11:18:44 and that shouldn't be the attitude we approach stuff we disagree with if we are trying to encourage community contributions 11:18:46 but deleting because of using one technical method vs another is silly 11:18:56 it's scattershot rather than targetted 11:19:17 kilobyte: it wasn't a blind deletion job 11:19:19 face the facts 11:19:24 kilobyte: that technical reason was just used to narrow the set of vaults considered for changing/deleting, not for the deletion itself 11:19:27 we've given you lots of examples of how it isn't that 11:20:11 he's explicitly said it was about design of the vaults, not purely technical concerns 11:20:22 are we just acting under the assumption that he is a liar who is trying to ruin crawl 11:20:31 because that seem wildly disingenuous 11:20:37 elliott: that is precisely what kilobyte has been doing and I'm sick of it 11:20:43 it's like Wikipedia: some folks call deletionism "careful maintenance", I call it "book-burning vandalism" 11:20:48 yes there is definitely someone lying repeatedly here 11:21:09 the patch was so clearly vandalism that multiple devs have said that they thought it was good 11:21:19 elliptic: it _did_ have good parts 11:21:26 okay so st_ is a book burner because he removed bad vaults 11:21:34 multiple devs have also disagreed with parts of it 11:21:41 <|amethyst> reverting several dozen spells at once is just as much deletionism as this is 11:21:58 elliott: removed bad _and_ good, without apparently looking closely 11:22:20 kilobyte: okay so you do insist on calling st_ a liar? 11:22:29 i don't see any evidence st_ didn't consider vaults on a case by case basis, and everything he's said on the matter of the patch contradicts that (seemingly baseless) assertion 11:22:47 |amethyst: most of spells that worked well with monsters have been re-added in the same push 11:23:04 elliott: did I say the word "liar" even once? 11:23:11 -!- elliott has left ##crawl-dev 11:23:41 "<+kilobyte> but deleting because of using one technical method vs another is silly" 11:23:55 this is absolutely and definitely not the case and you repeatedly insist it is 11:24:18 seriously, we might as well close development and stop accepting patches from the community if we are going to insult contributors like this 11:24:24 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:28 MarvinPA: ? 11:25:13 MarvinPA: the reason was repeated multiple times: that name: redefines count less than C++-side monsters 11:25:20 no 11:25:50 that is untrue 11:26:29 you keep repeating it and multiple people keep telling you that it is untrue 11:26:49 the problem i perceive look at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6979 is that st_ doesn't actually elaborate on what these "standards of vault design" actually are 11:26:54 s/look/looking/ 11:27:46 20:50 < st_> I removed the vaults that have no purpose other than renaming something 11:27:50 in fact he only makes one really brief comment in that whole ticket, so it's very hard to see if/what standards have been applied (unless you trawl the ##crawl-dev logs for the relevant discussion, probably a lot of it might have been said in ##crawl however) 11:31:06 * geekosaur does think that would have been better used as a starting point for discussion, rather than just committing it 11:31:24 branch, maybe 11:31:27 kilobyte: you'll note that this is different from "I removed the vaults that rename something" or "I think that vault-renamed monsters should never be used" or "I blindly removed vaults without thinking about them carefully" 11:31:40 but maybe you don't appreciate the distinction for some reason 11:31:53 geekosaur: st_ didn't commit it 11:32:23 mumra: did you test whether your feature tile override fix persists over saves? 11:32:26 -!- serq has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:27 the main problem I have here is that none of negative feedback was even addressed. There's a difference between being bold and making some change, and ignoring questions outright. 11:32:34 because I expect it won't 11:32:58 edlothiol: it should do because it applies before the level is saved 11:33:06 edlothiol: somehow most tile settings don't survive 11:33:29 mumra: since feature tile overrides also set feat_idx and that is used to restore feat on load 11:33:38 edlothiol: case in point: &~ Pan, &b -- the map has completely different tiles 11:33:44 does feat_idx not get saved on save? 11:33:55 i assume it does ... 11:34:22 mumra: yes, but it's not reset by your fix, so I think it'll still contain the old tile override 11:34:55 i think for the level gen case this shouldn't be a problem because it all happens before the level is first saved 11:35:01 but i'm not sure about later terrain changes 11:37:05 edlothiol: it persists fine across saves apparently (i couldn't see why it wouldn't) 11:37:09 -!- ekix has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:38:03 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:38:05 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20121208085021]] 11:38:30 03edlothiol 07* 0.13-a0-646-gd55b475: Also reset feat_idx when resetting the feature tile. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d55b475a9d72 11:38:57 edlothiol: yeah, probably better to be safe ;) 11:39:00 maybe that was unnecessary then, but I don't see how it could 11:39:06 kilobyte: most of the negative feedback I heard was on the order of "how could you remove X vault??" and half of the time the vault in question wasn't even removed by the patch 11:39:38 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:23 most of the complaints i've seen were "how could you remove bats??" to be fair 11:42:24 the only specific vaults i've seen mentioned are bat vault (which personally i wouldn't mind seeing return in some form or other) and rogue's gallery which grunt agreed with removing 11:42:43 well, people also kept complaining about the spriggan baker vault being removed even though it wasn't :P 11:43:14 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:22 it was 11:43:31 -KMONS: L = spriggan col:white name:baker n_suf ; robe . dagger 11:43:32 +KMONS: L = spriggan ; robe . dagger 11:43:35 ... 11:43:39 that's not the spriggan baker vault 11:43:50 kilobyte: we have explained this to you 12385091'70985370 times 11:43:58 that that is not the spriggan baker vault 11:44:29 "baked spriggan" on the other hand is still there, even though it's something I'd quite strongly promote deletion of :p 11:44:54 NAME: the_bakery 11:45:00 MONS: spriggan col:white name:baker n_suf ; robe . dagger 11:45:02 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:45:02 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:45:20 doesn't look removed to me! 11:45:53 there were two, there is one. Fits the word "removal", I'd say. 11:45:57 however you didn't listen to us the last 12580908 times we told you it wasn't removed, so why am I trying again 11:46:08 kilobyte: the other one wasn't "the spriggan baker vault" 11:46:24 unless the entire point of that spriggan level is the baker 11:46:44 -!- voker57_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:51 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 11:47:17 sgrep 'spriggan baker vault'|wc -l 11:47:18 18 11:47:21 sgrep 'spriggan baker vault'|grep kilobyte 11:47:21 ./##crawl-dev.2013-05-08.log:18:46 <+elliptic> kilobyte: the other one wasn't "the spriggan baker vault" 11:47:37 it was 11:48:11 anyway the point is that no vault containing a spriggan baker was removed 11:49:15 it just lost said spriggan baker 11:49:20 indeed 11:49:28 -!- ystael_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:50:46 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:55 -!- dtsund has quit [Client Quit] 11:51:20 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:30 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:53:59 -!- sbanwart__ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:54:10 i still think there needs to be some consensus or an approximation thereof, on what actually makes a good or bad vault 11:54:22 since that patch and mantis discussion aren't very illuminating in that regard 11:54:23 mumra: a hard task, but +1000 11:54:44 -!- tsn has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:54:49 -!- djanatyn has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 11:54:53 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 11:55:14 -!- santiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:18 mumra: see DracoOmega's comment earlier 11:55:22 Well, the inevitable thing here is that different people want different things for the game. One person's 'unnecessary and pointless' is another's 'amusing and flavorful', whether each camp thinks the other is objectively wrong or not. 11:56:09 consensus isn't about to happen for something as general as "which vaults are good" any more than it happens for "what design decisions are good" 11:56:49 i know :P 11:58:07 it'd be good, for instance, to have a statement why e.g. grunt_witch_cave was a problematic vault - it wasn't renaming just for the sake of renaming, the witch had a specific spell set 11:58:45 and at least have some *guidelines* that everyone can agree on, guidelines which of course can be bent and broken at the discression of whoever is commiting a vault 11:58:47 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:58:54 yeah, one-off monsters aren't necessarily bad 11:59:20 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:00:44 -!- aa99 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:01:19 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:30 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:07 I can't speak for st_ here of course, but personally I find monsters like that "witch" bad because there is no way for the player to know what is up with the monster (what spells it has, in particular)... with normal monsters, experience with past games is a thing but seeing the same vault twice is not at all likely, at least here 12:02:08 -!- ocd has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:24 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:30 elliptic: and _this_ is a valid argument 12:03:20 though it's possible to design a vault that gives the player hints about unique monsters and such 12:03:33 elliptic: you just came up with a reasonable reason that can be argued for or against, the mass removal lacked this 12:04:20 kilobyte: right, st_ didn't go through and explain his thought process for every single change... this still isn't a reason to call it vandalism 12:04:35 -!- nsillik has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:04:35 -!- nsillik_ is now known as nsillik 12:04:48 (apologies for using the word "vandalism" out of context, BTW -- it's a generic insult on Wikipedia, not so around here) 12:04:53 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:04:53 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 12:05:53 elliptic: my problem is that even when requested, he did not say anything to promote even the mass-removal in general, much less individual changes 12:06:09 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:30 -!- Wolf_Crawl has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:07:29 he did say some things 12:08:58 -!- voker57_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:09:23 20:54 < st_> I removed things based on gameplay reasons 12:09:23 20:54 < st_> and design reasons 12:10:00 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:10:21 -!- voker57_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:10:49 I don't feel like trying to dig up what he did say, clearly he wasn't optimally clear and/or eloquent, but it's difficult to give general reasons for things when you are looking at vaults on a case-by-case basis 12:12:38 except precisely the lack of looking at them on a case-by-case basis is what's the contentious point 12:13:10 now we get back to where you seem to think based on no evidence that he didn't look at them on a case-by-case basis 12:14:01