00:00:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:01:03 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-392-g85ae4b4 (34) 00:01:12 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:29 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-b1-110-gdacde81 00:02:22 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-392-g85ae4b4 (34) 00:06:04 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:08:38 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-392-g85ae4b4 00:14:49 -!- imantor has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:18:06 -!- home has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:21:09 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:56 -!- GuraKKa1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24:16 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 00:31:42 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:40 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:34:38 -!- madreisz has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:43 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:50 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:56 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:49:45 -!- InternetKraken has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:52:33 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:54:11 -!- Parak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:54:32 -!- rwbarton_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:54:35 -!- wjchen has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 00:59:48 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0a2/20130415004014]] 01:03:02 -!- Wester has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:03:02 -!- WesterAlt is now known as Wester 01:03:04 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:04:53 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 01:05:58 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:47 -!- dupo has quit [] 01:12:20 -!- dcssrubot960 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:21 -!- danharaj has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 01:14:27 * Havvy growls What 8 commits? 01:15:02 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:55 Havvy: guess! 01:18:15 Somewhere on git.develz.org?/p=crawl.git 01:27:36 -!- Staplegun has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:57 -!- infniplex has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:30:11 SamB: what permissions are required? Updater or Developer? 01:30:12 Napkin: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 01:30:28 Napkin: he already got upgraded to updater 01:30:46 it turns out you aren't the only one who can do that! 01:42:13 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 01:43:36 good 01:57:29 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:03:14 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:04:55 -!- NotKintak has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05:56 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:06:42 -!- NotKintak is now known as Kintak 02:09:22 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:10:02 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:10:38 -!- st_ has quit [] 02:12:24 -!- Nareusm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:24 -!- Cerepol has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:13:48 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:49 -!- Thalfon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:22:45 -!- eb has quit [] 02:25:30 Uh, so control+letter combos are mapped to keys 1 to 26 02:25:38 So ^M for example, is the same enter 02:30:15 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:35:10 bh (L27 HOPr) ASSERT(!env.orb_pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc' at line 177 failed. (D:1) 02:35:31 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:50 can someone look at the stack trace from my crash? 02:36:03 ISTR some other crash with interlevel recall on orbrun 02:36:06 !lm * crash -log 02:36:07 4674. bh, XL27 HOPr, T:87362 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/bh/crash-bh-20130417-073509.txt 02:36:31 !lm * crash x=milestone 02:36:32 4674. [2013-04-17 07:35:09] [milestone=ASSERT(!env.orb pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc' at line 177 failed.] bh the Axe Maniac (L27 HOPr) ASSERT(!env.orb pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc' at line 177 failed on turn 87362. (D:1) 02:36:36 liquefied ground, huh? 02:37:03 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:37:18 !lm * crash milestone=~"ASSERT(!env.orb pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc'" 02:37:19 18. [2013-04-17 07:35:09] bh the Axe Maniac (L27 HOPr) ASSERT(!env.orb pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc' at line 177 failed on turn 87362. (D:1) 02:37:21 !lm * crash milestone=~"ASSERT(!env.orb pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc'" -2 02:37:22 17/18. [2013-04-15 01:18:45] mrbobbyg the Impregnable (L27 HOPr) ASSERT(!env.orb pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc' at line 177 failed on turn 84990. (Zot:4) 02:37:32 !lm * crash milestone=~"ASSERT(!env.orb pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc'" s=cv,god 02:37:32 18 milestones for * (crash milestone=~'ASSERT(!env.orb pos.origin()) in \1areas.cc\1'): 9x 0.13-a (9x Beogh), 8x 0.11-a (8x Cheibriados), 0.12-a (Beogh) 02:38:13 I guess it is the same assert as the one triggered by that bug with using chei abilities on orbrun 02:38:38 I was recalling my orcs while standing on the upstairs of D:1 02:38:38 -!- NeremWorld has quit [] 02:38:57 anyway, it's late 02:38:59 DracoOmega: you know anything about this crash? 02:39:17 -!- bh has quit [Quit: yay, sleep] 02:40:02 -!- Guest98998 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:40:26 Oh, huh 02:40:36 I have no idea where the liquified ground thing is coming from 02:40:48 But Chei step from time moves the player to 0,0, yes? 02:41:14 And so does interlevel recall, actually, so that various status effects can wear off your orcs without giving you messages (it seemed the simplest way to do it at the time, believe it or not) 02:41:31 Since it is simulating that time has passed for the ones off-level, even when it technically hasn't 02:41:40 And I guess the orb really dislikes being at 0,0? 02:41:58 Do you know how this was fixed for Chei? 02:42:25 -!- dcssrubot363 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:51 There is if (... && !you.duration[DUR_TIME_STEP]) right before the assert 02:43:55 Haha 02:44:04 -!- johnstein has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 02:44:28 Well, that's one way to do it 02:44:37 -!- johnstein has joined ##crawl-dev 02:45:08 Possibly in this case it would just be better to refactor the ench timeout routine to be able to surpress messages 02:45:24 Though this seemed like a harmless workaround at the time 02:45:53 (In fact, I believe I did it this way since I knew that Step from Time did) 02:45:57 -!- gluop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:58:33 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:18:57 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 03:27:06 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:31:30 Stabbing icon still appears in tiles by prozacelf 03:32:32 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:32:49 -!- fiyawerx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:34:07 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:47:55 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:50:44 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:51 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:59:31 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:04:44 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:30 -!- dcssrubot992 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:39 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:16:25 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:20:50 -!- johnny0 has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:23:19 -!- Villadelfia has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:25:34 -!- Villadelfia has joined ##crawl-dev 04:29:37 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:32:41 -!- ark__ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37:32 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:24 -!- Sealer has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:40:00 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:47:51 03Medar 07* 0.13-a0-393-gb14bea4: Hide useless skills from tiles skill tab 10(48 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b14bea4faed9 04:51:56 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:17 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Changing host] 04:54:10 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:19 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 04:56:39 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:58:47 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:16:01 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!] 05:18:50 -!- Perkol has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:27:04 -!- Wehk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:57 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 05:35:26 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:38:29 -!- hyperbolic has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:39 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:38:39 -!- varmin has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:38:52 -!- johnstein__ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:39:27 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 05:39:32 I have a question! 05:39:37 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:22 -!- Pedjt has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:41:48 -!- johnstein_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:42:35 -!- dcssrubot676 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:29 -!- wjchen has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:07 -!- Azzkikr has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:49:15 -!- Azzkikr has quit [Client Quit] 05:56:07 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:51 -!- scummos^ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:35 -!- syraine has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:14:37 -!- rwbarton has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:16:48 -!- _D_ has quit [Client Quit] 06:23:20 -!- _D_ has quit [Client Quit] 06:43:51 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:58 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:49 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:49:42 mumra: why is the tavern thing about uniques wrong? 06:50:00 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:50:11 alefury: it may or may not be like *marginally* correct but i actually seriously doubt it 06:50:23 my main point is it's really not worth overthinking 06:50:44 and generating one tough unique on a level you're not going to visit means a different tough unique will generate somewhere 06:51:07 oh? 06:51:16 the main assumption that was specifically wrong was " These levels can generate annoying uniques for you that are not eligible for branch:1-4" 06:51:28 ah 06:51:37 as can be seen by: 06:51:38 NAME: uniq_lamia 06:51:38 DEPTH: Snake:2- 06:51:57 ...and countless other examples ... 06:52:27 hm, i thought deep lair branch floors do get some uniques not possible in shallow ones 06:52:33 basically, the idea that stair-dipping can somehow save you from dying to certain uniques, does not match up with the realities of probability and the rng 06:52:43 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:53:15 well, the idea is to put stuff into a place youre only going to come back when you are much stronger, and a lot of uniques are shared between deep lair branch floors and deep D 06:53:25 of course stairdipping because of that is really silly 06:53:31 alefury: yeah, deeper branches can always get tougher uniques. but, how can i explain this, D:10 is just as likely to generate a tough unique whether you did or didn't also generate one on Lair:8 by stair dipping 06:53:59 hmmkay 06:54:18 thanks for elaborating 06:54:33 if people are trying to game level generation like this then it's bad, and it's another argument in favour of generating the dungeon in a deterministic order. 06:54:45 but the premise is fundamentally flawed 06:55:03 pregenerating stuff will mess with acquirement items 06:55:07 because they are silly 06:55:17 i think 06:55:33 you can't "put stuff somewhere" by visiting that level, the generator has a given chance of generating tough uniques in different places, you still have just as high a chance of seeing other tough unques in other places 06:56:17 yeah i get it. just taking your word for it because i dont know the details of vault placement. 06:56:21 alefury: how does that mess with acquirement? because it e.g. is less likely to generate wands it's already generated? 06:56:37 surely it bases on what stuff you've seen, not what stuff has been created 06:56:42 yeah, at least thats how it works in troves. im not sure how other acquirement items work. 06:57:18 hmm 06:57:27 wand troves are really fucked up, because a lot of wand acquirements are done based on a single state of wand knowledge 06:58:00 and in general, if you pregenerate the whole dungeon, you can only base acquirement stuff on the current state 06:58:01 yeah it would change distributions a bit, acquirement-level items shouldn't really base on any history or player state; only ?acquirement should do that imo 06:58:19 i agree, and im not really sure its how random acquirement items work 06:58:23 wands are based on identifying them 06:58:24 but troves are weird at least 06:58:47 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:58:51 so that case wouldn't be a problem 06:58:55 hmm, these sound like problems that need fixing (there are other barriers to pregenerating the dungeon, not least the game startup time) 06:59:29 pregenerating the whole dungeon seems like a bad idea anyway 07:00:10 but things like generating intermediate levels for multi-level shafts has been brought up before 07:00:17 i think in the context of multi-level connectivity checks 07:00:20 but im not sure 07:00:38 ahh grammar 07:01:03 anyway the stairdipping thing is more about probabilities. generating one level but not visiting does not give any reasonable chance that you're less likely to meet certain uniques elsewhere, the whole thing is incredibly bizarre and marginal. 07:02:01 that was obvious from the start, yes :) 07:02:32 i was nearly going to reply "no i'm not going to elaborate, stop thinking about this" but i realised it was less typing to just point at uniques.des ;) 07:02:52 sorry :P 07:02:58 alefury: no, i don't mean to you 07:03:01 i meant in the thread 07:03:07 yeah i know 07:03:15 hehe 07:03:28 you ended up typing a lot anyway :P 07:04:01 yeah but i don't mind explaining to someone who is actually going to understand 07:07:21 -!- ark__ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:08:40 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Quit: I've killed the senator.] 07:12:41 -!- dcssrubot893 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:35 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:22:30 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:42:02 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:44:15 -!- _D_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:45:43 -!- tJener has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:06 -!- _D_ has quit [Client Quit] 07:49:59 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:45 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closed] 08:39:40 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 08:42:46 -!- dcssrubot264 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47:52 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:24 -!- dcssrubot578 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57:17 -!- spriseris has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 08:59:45 -!- zero_one has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:06:56 -!- johnstein__ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 09:07:30 -!- johnstein_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:30 -!- dcssrubot57 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:07:38 -!- johnstein_ has quit [Client Quit] 09:17:58 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:20:42 -!- Zermako has quit [] 09:22:19 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:20 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:30:45 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:29 -!- Zifmia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:21 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:08:27 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 10:09:52 -!- lingaojing has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:15 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:11:22 -!- pantaril has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:58 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:14 -!- remyroy has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:21:26 There should be a way to figure out that destroying a book to forget a spell is an option by Medar 10:21:53 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:20 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:39 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:37:40 -!- dcssrubot449 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:41:38 can memorize sandblast w/o spellbook by minced 10:42:15 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:45:57 -!- anidude has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:04 03MarvinPA 07* 0.13-a0-394-g784dc8e: Increase Portal card's cTele duration 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=784dc8e28b8d 10:47:06 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:29 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:49:22 -!- Kintak has joined ##crawl-dev 10:49:35 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:00 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:46 -!- gluop has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:00:28 -!- Isasaur has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:06:46 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:12:21 03MarvinPA 07* 0.13-a0-395-gfade1d7: Add a message when failing to move in fungus form 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fade1d7c5c1c 11:12:21 03MarvinPA 07* 0.13-a0-396-g231196a: Fungi don't have mouths 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=231196a0620a 11:12:22 Cherry-picked 2 commits into stone_soup-0.12 11:15:13 -!- hyperbolic is now known as elliptic 11:15:33 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:18:54 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:22:43 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20121208085021]] 11:29:28 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:30:53 -!- xxx has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:31:49 -!- notmadreisz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:30 -!- Kliff has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:37:02 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:37:16 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:40:15 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:16 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:26 -!- clouded_ is now known as st_ 11:44:46 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:16 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:09 -!- xxx has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:54:20 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:54:25 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:55:09 -!- ZRN_ is now known as ZRN 11:59:35 MarvinPA: no mouths? http://www.theprincessplanet.com/2011/07/17/rock-ness-mess-part-6/ 12:00:53 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:13 -!- jday_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:54 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 12:03:16 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:49 -!- scummos has quit [Client Quit] 12:05:29 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11.2-13-g9771293 12:05:40 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:07:46 -!- dcssrubot347 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:10:59 -!- yxhuvud2 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:11:27 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-396-g231196a (34) 12:12:00 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:12:39 -!- Zifmia has quit [Quit: Wrong button bad with computers] 12:23:34 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:23:50 -!- simmarine has quit [Client Quit] 12:24:24 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:16 -!- rkd has quit [] 12:26:36 -!- Golova4-Lena has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:58 Shakkara the Magician (L2 VpWz) ASSERT(total > 0) in 'random-var.cc' at line 56 failed on turn 625. (D:1) 12:33:17 Annotate god gifts for stash search by Medar 12:35:00 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:38:02 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:33 -!- Boyo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:42:33 -!- InternetKraken has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:45:48 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:49:13 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:58:33 casting poisonous cloud on yourself prompts even with poison resistance by sim 13:04:04 !lm * crash -log 13:04:06 4675. Shakkara, XL2 VpWz, T:625 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Shakkara/crash-Shakkara-20130417-173256.txt 13:11:49 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:13:22 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:19:13 -!- Isasaur_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:28:53 Can cast mephitic cloud on self without prompt by mumra 13:32:58 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:34:12 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:36 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [] 13:37:51 -!- dcssrubot992 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:36 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:42:58 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:50 -!- Stelpa has quit [Quit: Butts] 13:47:46 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:30 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:00:15 -!- Boyo_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:02:03 -!- Staren has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:27 -!- Staren has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:20 -!- Zifmia has quit [] 14:05:06 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:38 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:06 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:09:22 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:11:01 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:13:33 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:14:58 mumra: http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/1chvhg/probably_the_coolest_plain_dungeon_layout_ive/ 14:18:20 that's not actually cathedral_of_symmetry but still ;) 14:18:23 similar algorithm 14:18:31 ... 14:18:37 I still can't tell your layouts apart :b 14:18:52 it's layout_waterfall 14:19:16 * SamB wonders if the layout should be known to the PC ... 14:19:18 tbh even I'm failing to tell some of them apart now :P 14:19:26 SamB, no, we've had issues with that in the past. 14:19:36 That's a bit spoilery. 14:20:13 eh, its a bit more than "a bit" but yeah..you used to be able to !lm them, I think, and combined with !map (or #map, whatever it is) makes for meh. 14:20:48 Now you can't !lm to fetch the name of a layout until after the game has ended (which is a reasonable compromise) 14:20:51 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:21:26 hmm 14:21:48 otoh, a lot of these new layouts it makes little difference knowing which one it is, they're so random 14:21:54 can we change that at all for sprint and zotdef? 14:22:26 I had a really strange set of Zot layouts in my recent win. 14:22:31 I mean, the main map is obviously known 14:22:35 I didn't actually spend much time in any of them, but still... 14:22:41 so should probably be known to Sequell too 14:23:18 I'm fairly sure every single level was a mumra layout :) 14:23:34 haha 14:23:45 strange would definitely describe them 14:23:54 todo: make zot stranger 14:24:17 Zot drinks a potion of mutation! Zot feels extremely strange. 14:24:46 Zot feels fantastic! 14:25:28 :D 14:25:40 I found two beneficial mutation potions in that last win. 14:25:51 One was more fantastic than the other :b 14:26:43 -!- home_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:03 random-var is a bit sparse on docs ... 14:31:24 -!- mumra has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:42 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:32:51 -!- us17 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:32:58 -!- jarpiain has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:33:05 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 14:33:30 -!- jarpiain is now known as Guest43838 14:34:18 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:37:32 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:38:23 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:40 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:55 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:55:07 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:22 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 14:59:04 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:59:31 -!- sbanwart has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:59:35 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:01:02 -!- SamB_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:01:22 -!- SamB has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:01:30 -!- SamB_ is now known as SamB 15:05:58 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:07:55 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:07:58 -!- dcssrubot950 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:06 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:09:47 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 15:10:00 03Medar 07* 0.13-a0-397-gb6b0b31: Annotate god gifts for stash search 10(4 days ago, 2 files, 15+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b6b0b3154d4c 15:11:18 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:14:56 GuesssWho the Skirmisher (L3 DsFi) (D:2) 15:15:35 !lg guesswho crash -log 15:15:36 No keyword 'crash' 15:15:43 !lm guesswho crash -log 15:15:44 No milestones for guesswho (crash). 15:15:51 * Grunt thumbtwiddles... 15:15:53 not enough ssssses 15:16:00 !lm guessswho crash -log 15:16:01 1. GuesssWho, XL3 DsFi, T:785 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/GuesssWho/crash-GuesssWho-20130417-201455.txt 15:16:12 ... 15:16:39 -!- yalue has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:56 signal 15 ? 15:18:33 |amethyst: any idea why crawl would be getting signal 15 on CAO? 15:23:19 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:23:47 <|amethyst> hrm 15:26:11 <|amethyst> not sure who sent it... webtiles can send a SIGTERM in some situations but only if SIGHUP fails 15:27:01 hmm, poisonous cloud has SPFLAG_ALLOW_SELF too, why does it prompt but not mephitic cloud? 15:27:15 <|amethyst> yes, it was webtiles that sent it 15:27:20 <|amethyst> 2013-04-17 16:14:55,624 INFO: #26106 P105276 Killing crawl process after SIGHUP did nothing. 15:27:24 <|amethyst> 2013-04-17 16:14:55,624 INFO: #26106 P105276 ERR: Writing crash info to /dgldir/ttyrec/GuesssWho/crash-GuesssWho-20130417-201455.txt 15:27:40 <|amethyst> this was after the socket was allegedly closed 15:28:27 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 15:29:29 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:44 <|amethyst> oh, we got "Exception trying to send message" before even starting crawl 15:30:05 ... is it something to do with SPFLAG_DIR_OR_TARGET vs SPFLAG_AREA ? 15:30:46 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 15:30:48 hmm, poisonous cloud has SPFLAG_ALLOW_SELF too, why does it prompt but not mephitic cloud? 15:30:59 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 15:33:06 <|amethyst> !tell edlothiol strange occurrence on CAO: webtiles had to kill a process with SIGTERM... looks like crawl was started *after* the connection was closed? http://crawl.akrasiac.org/misc/guessswho-webtiles.log 15:33:07 |amethyst: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 15:33:27 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 15:35:19 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:37:22 hmm, why is mephitic cloud using a totally different targetter from the other cloud spells, and why does that other targetter not have a parameter for cloud type anyway? 15:38:55 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:39:15 meph is a beam that explodes into a cloud. Other cloud spells are smite targetted 15:39:23 oh, okay 15:39:51 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:39:53 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 15:40:05 Ah the good old beam-into-a-cloud trick. 15:40:10 that still doesn't explain the lack of a parameter for cloud type, since that can affect what's interesting/desirable to target ... 15:40:14 also, cloud spells spread in corridors and meph is more like fireball, except not all cells are guaranteed 15:40:15 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:40:15 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:42:33 SamB: yeah, meph will happily target resistant monsters... 15:42:59 ice storm is also a beam, isn't it? 15:44:53 yeah 15:45:00 * SamB is disturbed by all the string comparisons he's spotted in beam.cc in just a smallish number of lines ... 15:46:47 the string comparisons are deeply disturbing, yes 15:47:52 ??epic bugs[3] 15:47:53 disc of storms[2/3]: !lg turnerjer place=slime:1 1 -tv 15:47:54 ??epic bugs[4] 15:47:55 epic bugs[4/9]: !lm hjklyubn setm uniq=geryon 1 -tv 15:47:57 where is it 15:48:02 oh maybe it is in {trivia} 15:48:59 SamB, the answer is that you should implement a magic_attack class which improves upon the concepts of melee_attack 15:49:20 and while you're doing all that, fix the (comparably small) issue of string comparisons. 15:51:12 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:51:22 please don't call anything magic_attack, beams get used for lots of things that aren't magic or attacks 15:51:33 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:52:46 -!- chaingun has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:53:45 yeah, I realized after I had said it that beams are more widely used...but I still can't help but think of a "beam" being "magic" rather than its literal definition of a "beam" 15:54:47 * SamB edges away from this part of the codebase 15:54:48 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:52 elliptic, I'm curious, what else do beams get used for, aside from attacks? Are beams always used for trajectory calculations (such as how chunks fly when you blow up something), etc. 15:55:06 -!- Guest43838 is now known as jarpiain 15:55:15 Cryp71c: well, for one thing they are used for stuff like hasting your allies 15:55:21 which is not an attack 15:55:37 Ah, right...spells whose targetting is still beam-based, I got ya. 15:56:00 also things like throwing a scroll a few steps away from you when you see a fire crab 15:56:45 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 15:57:07 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:08 <|amethyst> also for tracers, which aren't attacks yet 15:57:10 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:58:01 <|amethyst> stairs fleeing you under Xom are also implemented with beams (to do the "slide" animation) 15:58:50 seems like pretty much everything involves beams one way or another 15:59:09 Except, perhaps, melee combat, of course. 15:59:17 -!- mumra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:59:18 I think reaching might? 15:59:41 (At any rate it uses targetting ...) 15:59:48 <|amethyst> it does use a beam 16:00:25 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:01:16 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 16:01:36 <|amethyst> also, electrocution brand ultimately calls conduct_electricity, which uses a beam 16:02:20 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:02:27 <|amethyst> anything that hits something that is not adjacent is probably a beam, unless it isn't 16:02:41 <|amethyst> where by "a beam" I mean "an object of class bolt" :/ 16:02:51 <|amethyst> s/is probably/probably involves/ 16:03:02 I had seen that someone has a branch for changing formulas for stat (str, dex, int) contributing to combat? 16:03:37 also IOOD and boulders use a beam to set their initial dirction 16:04:17 <|amethyst> immolation (explosions are almost always implemented with beams) 16:04:34 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:05:37 Friendly Cacodemon can cast Confuse on the player by HilariousDeathArtist 16:06:19 -!- AndChat-718256 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:22 Sounds like a beam right there 16:06:42 cacodemon (082) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 79-115 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Dam: 22, 22 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, lev, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(156), 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1895 | Sp: b.energy (3d20), slow, confuse, malmutate, b.dig | Sz: Large | Int: high. 16:06:42 %??Cacodemon 16:07:17 imo feature 16:07:27 cacodemons are probably very confusing creatures 16:08:41 -!- spriseris has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 16:08:51 it's in the self-enchantment slot, is that why? 16:09:14 why would it want to confuse itself though 16:09:39 <|amethyst> self-enchantment slot is the problem 16:09:43 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:45 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 16:09:50 <|amethyst> the name is a misnomer kind of 16:10:08 ISTR this coming up before with another monster 16:10:33 probably also another spell 16:11:05 <|amethyst> but that slot is used as a fallback when no other spells can be found... and skips many of the safety checks that are normally performed 16:11:07 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 16:11:33 <|amethyst> I discussed that with somebody a few months ago... don't remember if it was Grunt or DracoOmega or bh 16:11:57 <|amethyst> one solution would be to change the order of some of the checks in handle_mon_spell 16:12:11 <|amethyst> but that could be involved and bug-prone 16:12:25 <|amethyst> a quick fix is to take targetted spells out of that slot 16:12:31 unknown monster: "cacoemon" 16:12:31 <|amethyst> %??cacoemon 16:12:33 cacodemon (082) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 79-115 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Dam: 22, 22 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, lev, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(156), 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1895 | Sp: b.energy (3d20), slow, confuse, malmutate, b.dig | Sz: Large | Int: high. 16:12:33 <|amethyst> %??cacodemon 16:13:19 <|amethyst> see mon-cast.cc starting around line 2173 ("If not okay, then maybe we'll cast a defensive spell.") 16:13:37 <|amethyst> until that function is changed, it is IMHO a bug for anything but a defensive spell to be in that slot 16:14:08 <|amethyst> untargetted defensive spell 16:14:42 <|amethyst> unfortunately, cacodemon has so many spells.. 16:15:10 why does SPELL_DIG have to be in misc(2) 16:15:42 New branch created: ds_trade_offs (1 commit) 16:15:42 03Cryp71c 07[ds_trade_offs] * 0.13-a0-398-gc73457f: Give monstrous DS a scale mutation 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c73457f29f79 16:16:31 anyway, why don't we just have a is_untargetted_defensive_spell() that it can use to skip spells that aren't ... 16:16:41 <|amethyst> SamB: I'm not sure if that's true anymore after Grunt's change to dig 16:18:20 <|amethyst> SamB: it appears to be no longer true 16:18:36 <|amethyst> SamB: I just made an orc wizard spells:dig and it happily zapped through a wall to get to me 16:19:06 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:10 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:19:33 <|amethyst> doesn't help with cacodemons, though, because they have 5 targetted spells but there are only 4 slots appropriate for those spells (not counting the self-enchant slot and the emergency slot) 16:19:43 yeah 16:20:06 <|amethyst> maybe remove slow? 16:20:09 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:20:15 put DIG in the self-ench slot, since dig doesn't hurt the player? 16:20:37 <|amethyst> SamB: well, that could make them dig when they're not supposed to 16:21:02 <|amethyst> SamB: oh, but Dig in particular will be removed from that slot before the code gets to the fallback 16:21:12 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:21:14 <|amethyst> SamB: so it might work, but would be kind of fragile 16:21:21 did not know that 16:21:47 -!- mumra has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:53 anyway ... why can't we filter out inappropriate self-enchants in the code again? 16:22:01 <|amethyst> Check around lines 1981-1990 16:22:04 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:34 <|amethyst> SamB: might need to add a flag to spells, but that should be possible I think? 16:22:45 -!- AndChat-718256 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:23:56 Cryp71c: monstrous Ds lost scales when non-monstrous Ds lost a breath weapon, in c026ebd7 16:24:26 elliptic, thanks, I searched and searched for that commit via log grepping, but couldn't turn it up. 16:24:59 Cryp71c: personally I don't think monstrous Ds are underpowered as-is, and giving them 21 mutations seems like a lot 16:24:59 MarvinPA, I guess that was your commit? 16:25:25 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26:19 like, if you are doing any melee at all then getting two extra level 3 bodyslot muts seems stronger than many of the scales 16:27:55 -!- Zifmia has quit [Quit: Wrong button bad with computers] 16:28:33 though it would be better if claws weren't useless if you used a weapon 16:29:01 Yes, I've been trying to think of some solution for that, as well as the general underwhelmingness of talons/hooves. 16:29:07 (talons in particular, I think) 16:29:12 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:16 hooves aren't underwhelming, and I buffed talons quite recently... 16:29:34 hooves kill cerebov 16:29:46 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:47 they are a bit worse, but something has to be the worst and I was more concerned about beastly appendage balance 16:29:49 I'lll have to take a look at how talons play now, then. 16:30:41 It would be nice if each provided either some effect or flavor which set it apart (such as talons doing less damage outright and causing a slight bleed effect), but going either way on that will affect others who get those mutes (kenk, centaur, etc.) 16:30:56 they already mostly have such effects 16:31:04 Talons cause bleeding? 16:31:19 And do hooves have some side effect? 16:31:37 hooves ignore AC, claws cause bleeding, horns have a mini-stun 16:31:45 I forget whether talons also cause bleeding 16:31:47 I recall discussing hooves bypassing some AC, yeah. 16:32:01 bleeding is a really awful effect btw 16:32:03 I don't think Talons does anything, perhaps that's why its often referenced as the most undesirable of the slots. 16:32:10 mechanically or balance wise? 16:32:53 both really... it's like poison in that you get messages about it but it doesn't do any damage of note 16:33:01 it also makes no sense whatsoever 16:33:08 why would claws cause bleeding but a big axe not 16:33:13 i would rather improve/add more body slot muts than give monstrous ds scales too 16:33:47 MarvinPA, I've been brainstorming on more defensive body slots for the existing slots and slots which presently do not have anything (wings for cloaks, etc.) 16:34:01 elliptic, super dull axes.....but yeah, I get your point. 16:34:55 the messages are less annoying than the other effects 16:34:55 imo 16:34:58 Cryp71c: the most helpful new bodyslot mut would be something else for hands... currently monstrous Ds are guaranteed claws 16:35:33 I guess having a cloak slot mut would also work but having 2 possibilities for each slot seems best 16:35:57 I still keep coming back (mentally) of changing player size (up from medium) for monstrous ds, just for theme..but it'd be a big nerf. 16:36:32 elliptic, yes, I agree..with some slots being double offensive (hooves / talons) and others a mix of offensive/defensive/utility 16:37:03 MarvinPA, you mean giving monstrous ds 4 slots, or staying at 3 but give more variability? 16:37:05 horns/antennae works fine, yes... people can argue about which one is better, but they both do useful things 16:37:17 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 16:37:20 the latter, i don't think they need extra muts really 16:37:40 MarvinPA, although I'd love the former, I'm inclined to agree 16:37:49 s/I'd love the former/I'd love both/ 16:38:03 -!- dcssrubot442 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:55 elliptic, bleeding was (and I thought continues to be) relatively well received, despite its lack of sense 16:39:09 I don't remember it ever being well received... 16:39:22 i mostly just notice people asking what on earth it does 16:39:53 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:54 because it's so unclear, because it does mostly nothing :P 16:40:09 elliptic, its original implementation was quite a bit stronger, perhaps it ws just well received for its OP 16:40:47 I mostly notice people complaining about how awful it is in console 16:40:50 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:41:03 -!- Netmonmatt has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:41:04 You mean the messages, elliott? 16:41:13 I mean the red 16:41:14 Any suggestions on its alteration / removal / replacemrent? 16:41:53 blood spatters should just be an unthing, it's basically independent of bleeding itself I think 16:41:56 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 16:42:00 though I've never noticed bleeding do anything 16:42:40 I remember being able to see its effect, even after its original implementation was nerfed. Perhaps its been nerfed again since I last looked at it? 16:42:42 I'd just remove bleeding; stuff that causes bleeding can instead do a bit more damage 16:42:59 Is it ok to just edit the manual in the devwiki? (Adding a mention that _ is F12 in WebTiles) 16:43:17 No weapon types cause bleeding, right? 16:43:50 correct; currently you just get bleeding from claws and acid I think 16:43:56 acid, really 16:44:17 who added that effect to acid? I hope not me...that seems quite unthemeatic. 16:44:53 Not meaning to insult whoever did it, just surprised, I suppose. Kneejerk reaction. 16:45:12 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 16:46:08 elliptic, the scales are a small change, I'm going to give them a try in this branch, but I'll keep your feedback in mind while I test the other changes 16:46:18 -!- Sprort has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:34 Clearly when its all said and done their presence will be at everyone's agreement (or at least the majority) 16:46:41 Cryp71c: to be clear, I don't think monstrous Ds would be grossly overpowered with scales or anything... but it would make them less distinct for sure 16:46:54 they'd just be normal Ds with two extra muts 16:47:20 that's the main reason i'd much prefer to improve body slot muts if a change is needed, yeah 16:48:05 -!- scummos^ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:48:08 elliptic, any feedback to the size change? Perhaps ideas to make it not quite such a nerf while maintaining the thematic benefits it has? 16:48:08 oh, I guess recite can also cause bleeding 16:48:42 elliptic: so only claws and acid, then 16:48:47 Cryp71c: the problem with the size change is that the gameplay effects of it are sort of technical 16:49:35 mainly people will just notice (or not notice) that their EV is mysteriously lower and that they need less shield skill 16:50:07 many people won't ever realize the change, so I don't really think it will have many thematic benefits 16:53:30 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:11 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:11 -!- Wehk has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen] 16:54:20 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 16:55:53 -!- Cryp71c__ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:56:05 A random monstrous idea (that would take some creativity and work to implement, but...) what if there was one special monstrous-only mutation for each body slot that was especially good, and monstrous demonspawn always got this special mutation in ONE of their body slots (and no one else did?) 16:56:17 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:57:39 So that being monstrous would always come with something particularly special (but still in the theme of losing more armour in exchange for it) 16:57:44 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 16:59:07 Cryp71c: I set the branch with the stat buff (~ *3) 16:59:13 and weapon delay change 16:59:32 but the formula for weapon delay isn't good, I need to try another 16:59:53 *2 for stat changes seemed more reasonable to me when I last looked at the numbers, btw 17:01:23 -!- Cryp71c__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:01:30 galehar, is that across the board? 17:01:47 galehar, what's the branch, I'm interested in the details of the formula. 17:01:48 that was for melee bonus 17:02:14 melee_linear_speed 17:02:31 Ah, yes that strikes a chord...I remember that from the c-r-d mails. 17:03:40 maybe this could work: delay = base_delay / (1 + 2 * skill / 27) 17:03:42 elliptic, I've also thought about monstrous providing some spellcasting bonuses or utility, since right now its totally disadvantageous from a spellcasting point of view. I don't suppose demon-like casting (immune to silence) sounds balanced to you? 17:03:53 it's not totally disadvantageous 17:03:56 http://fooplot.com/plot/mvrjyseaan 17:03:59 for one thing there are antennae 17:04:19 Well, it mightn't hurt for there to be more body slots that provide non-melee benefits, though 17:04:20 Well, yes...but for an increased chance at antennae, you're guanteed to lose 2 slots, maybe 3 17:04:23 As a seperate point 17:04:23 for another some spells are usually used in conjunction with melee 17:04:37 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:01 DracoOmega: sure 17:05:13 Actually, I tend to think a lot of DS mutations are more supportive of melee than conjurations and such anyway. Not that I think this is an inherant problem. 17:05:14 DracoOmega, yeah we briefly discussed that earlier...that alone might be enough of an improvement. 17:05:24 Cryp71c: immune to silence sounds quite boring to me... it will do nothing in most games 17:05:36 elliptic: The major benefit is probably that YOU can use silence freely 17:05:41 Since it doesn't hurt you 17:05:52 it still means no scroll usage 17:05:58 no invocations 17:05:59 Hmmm... true 17:06:13 elliptic, ah, I hadn't considered scrolls and inv. 17:06:17 silence isn't particularly good in most of a 3-rune game anyway though 17:06:41 it's also more suited to melee types anyway, because you need to stay close to the target 17:06:49 Yes 17:07:30 anyway, mainly I just don't like the idea because I can easily see it doing absolutely nothing... players may well not even *find* silence spell 17:07:50 I do agree generally 17:08:28 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:36 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:08:47 Cryp71c: things that offer spellcasting bonuses or utility do sound good in general, though... I'll see whether I can think of anything 17:08:56 -!- us17 has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 17:09:14 utility probably better than spellcasting bonuses, too, because many chars don't cast spells... 17:09:27 It seems harder to come up with boot slot mutations that are supportative than head slot ones 17:09:35 Since you can do a lot of mental things with the above 17:09:50 DracoOmega: well, what we really need are glove slot or cloak slot muts 17:09:50 elliptic, yeah, I think there should be a spellcasting bonus, but perhaps only one or so...all in the name of adaptation and such. 17:10:08 Glove slot: constricting tentacle hands :P 17:10:30 DracoOmega, still requires unarmed combat (does nothing for wielding a weapon) which is a problem w/ claws 17:10:36 You put on the tentacle hands. 17:10:42 Make it work with a weapon 17:10:45 Or else I'd jump at tentacle hands (easily implemented since its already...implemented) 17:10:46 Cryp71c: well, it wouldn't have to require unarmed combat really 17:11:02 octopodes and nagas constrict while using a weapon 17:11:44 there was some concern about constriction already being overused with two races always having it, though 17:11:46 Actually, I think a DS mutation that made you sprout a starspawn-esque tentacle that ran around and constricted things could be kinda fun :P 17:11:49 A seperate thing, though 17:11:51 dpeg had an idea for a 3 or 4-tentacle mutation (which would work well for this purpose) but I think his suggestion was also in the context of wearing 3 or 4 rings, rather than granting UC while wielding a weapon. 17:12:16 elliptic, yeah that was mentioned in that same conversation (undoubtedly you were there, perhaps making the point in question) 17:12:16 granting UC? 17:12:34 elliptic, unarmed combat, as if the PC had no weapon in hand. 17:12:50 But how is a tentacle arm constricting something using UC necessarily? 17:12:56 Any more than any aux is 17:13:02 Cryp71c: well tentacle constriction has nothing to do with UC 17:13:05 is the point 17:13:13 if monstrous Ds were to get a constricting mutation, I think it'd work better has a tail on the cloak slot 17:13:36 elliptic, ohh, ok..so you guys are talking about getting the constriction effect, but they don't get unarmed combat attacks as if they were wielding no weapon. 17:13:52 I misunderstood you. 17:14:06 Cryp71c: about attack delay, here is the wiki page: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:fighting_reform&#attack_speed 17:14:08 galehar, I could see that, though I think we have yet to overcome the "2 other races already have it" 17:14:31 some sort of tail mut could be good even if it isn't constriction 17:14:49 I've just updated it with the latest tweak to the formula, still need work to adjust all weapons base delay 17:15:15 elliptic, I could see some sort of a hand mut which provides some spellcasting bonus (channeling magic yadda yadda something) which would work even if you're wielding weapons 17:15:49 Randomly regain a little mp when hitting something, maybe? 17:16:02 Trying to think of interesting tail muts.... 17:16:31 how about anticonstriction 17:16:37 I don't know what that means but it sounds promising! 17:16:49 DracoOmega: You steal the wizard's magic power! 17:16:55 (only much better wording) 17:17:19 Cryp71c: yeah, I was thinking about that a bit 17:17:33 DracoOmega: could work, needs a name though 17:18:12 Osmose? 17:18:13 * Grunt flees. 17:19:13 -!- Boyo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:19:24 In terms of 'utility' boot slots, the best coming to mind so far is some sort of suctiony things, giving cling+knockback immunity, which is... underwhelming to say the least >.> 17:19:51 Cling!!! 17:20:08 <|amethyst> long arms (reaching melee, possibly a reaching aux) 17:20:24 <|amethyst> I'm sure that's been suggested before 17:20:32 <|amethyst> and probably rejected :) 17:20:48 mmmdhalsim melee 17:20:54 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:20:56 waterwalking seems obvious for a foot mut but also sounds lame 17:21:16 <|amethyst> and that's already Beogh's balliwick 17:21:37 but at least you wouldn't have to worry about the mut evaporating on you 17:21:38 well not just his, there are lots of ways to cross water 17:21:40 <|amethyst> s/all/ail/ 17:21:43 double-wielding using your feet! 17:21:51 beogh is hopefully losing waterwalking :P 17:21:54 <|amethyst> SwissStopwatch: true, I guess ice beasts for example walk on water 17:21:57 * Grunt gestures at Zannick. Zannick is devoured by a tear in reality. 17:22:07 |amethyst: They swim, actually 17:22:17 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: oh, I thought they floated 17:22:19 and octopodes, merfolk, anybody with flight, etc (it being specifically walking didn't seem important to me) 17:22:20 * Zannick screams extra ring slots on your tooooooooesssssssss... and vanishes. 17:22:23 DracoOmega, I think feet will stay as offensive/offensive 17:22:26 -!- morik has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:22:27 Well, floating, sure. But IN the water, not ON the water 17:22:28 head is offensive/utility 17:22:28 I always imagined ice beasts as freezing the surface of the water as they walked over it. <_< 17:22:32 Much like people normally float 17:22:33 -!- morik__ is now known as morik 17:22:42 <|amethyst> true 17:22:49 Or ice 17:23:02 <|amethyst> I was about to say "or icebergs" but you beat me to it 17:23:05 elliott: why do you want to take away water walking from Beogh? 17:23:27 it could easily be made more reliable by having a delay for expiring 17:23:29 (elliott would probably prefer that Beogh didn't exist) 17:23:45 What else comes out of your back / shoulders other than wings? 17:23:47 Well, in this case it was more that there was interest in giving Beogh something else more generally useful 17:23:48 water walking feels like more of a joke ability than anything one way or another 17:23:59 And that could mean removing something (and water walking is basically inconsequential) 17:24:20 We already have 2 variations of feet-mutation, I don't think we'll be adding a 3rd without muts for cloak, a 2nd mut for hands, etc. 17:24:21 galehar: improvements to beogh were discussed recently 17:24:29 Cryp71c: Tentacle-cloak :P 17:24:32 and it was suggested to remove water-walking (for being mostly useless as well as risky to use) in return 17:24:33 Constrict things that hit you 17:24:43 (I don't know) 17:24:54 Oh, that reminds me of an idea I had earlier, largely unrelated to everything else being discussed. 17:25:01 ...tangleweeds; they grab things that walk past them :b 17:25:18 (give Fedhasites the ability to plant these, as though they need the power boost!!!) 17:25:19 MarvinPA, elliptic, what about no scales and a body-slot mut (either in additon to the 3 body facets you get now, or as part of the 3-body slots) where the body body-slot is picked from 2 or 3 options that strongly represnt the trade-off idea that was being discussed last week? 17:25:36 elliott: yeah, I've read that in the backlog. Do we have to remove water walking to add anything? I don't think so 17:25:43 <|amethyst> Grunt: there was a design for a "grasping graves" spell that would be similarish 17:25:48 waterwalking is pretty useful in swamp and shoals for beoghites 17:25:51 and as i said, it can easily be made safe to use 17:25:58 |amethyst, imo find a way to put it into hexes and make it high level. 17:26:03 Zannick: it does separate you from your followers... 17:26:14 oh, true 17:26:20 Cryp71c: I have no clue what "body-slot is picked from 2 or 3 options that strongly represnt the trade-off idea" means, sorry 17:26:26 give them waterwalking, too 17:26:34 well, there's also the fact that even when safe it duplicates something which you're very likely to have by the time it becomes useful 17:26:34 I assume it's something that removes body armour, but is really strong itself? 17:26:39 Zannick: only if they're in close proximity to you <_< 17:26:54 Grunt: *splash* 17:26:56 "Your surroundings suddenly seem different. You feel very guilty. 'You will pay for your transgression, mortal!'" 17:27:03 (Though removing body armour is way worse than any aux armour, obviously) 17:27:03 Grunt: what? so i can accidentally drown them? 17:27:08 lol 17:27:13 elliott: if there was a real reason to remove it, yeah why not. But there isn't 17:27:16 removing body armour sounds pretty extreme, but I guess it could work if the effects are good enough 17:27:25 but this requires actual new mutation ideas 17:27:29 elliptic, I mean..right now we are discussing cloak, gloves, helmet, and boot restricting facets. What if monstrous gives you access to some other body armour-restricting facet (or one chosen from 2 or 3 possible facets) 17:27:33 that would really simplify the game ;-P 17:27:37 Well, one thing about removing body armour is that it impacts playstyle a lot more than any other body slot 17:27:46 SamB, instead of "less armour" lets just go with "no armour" :P 17:27:48 Since it makes a lot less difference to someone who would have worn a robe than one who wanted heavy armour 17:27:52 And it basically closes those playstyles 17:27:53 xref: early ogres and trolls, draconians 17:28:26 Cryp71c: well, this needs actual good ideas for what those body armour-restricting facets are 17:28:55 <|amethyst> and gaining such a mut could make previous skill expenditures completly useless 17:28:57 elliptic, indeed 17:29:10 also, do we mean body armour-restricting or body armour-removing? 17:29:22 <|amethyst> oh, restricting might be reasonable 17:29:25 both have issues really 17:29:33 I think removing has easier balance implications. 17:29:51 <|amethyst> I think someone suggested once a "make you big" DS mutation 17:29:51 Remove body armour entirely, but allow for the benefits provided by the facets to scale with armour/dodging skill level. 17:30:04 restricting is not a penalty at all to many characters, removing makes armour skill useless and is a much larger drawback 17:30:26 |amethyst, I did, severla times over the history of monstrous, and as elliptic has mentioned again today, its odd to make noticble to the user in many ways. 17:31:02 I think the big problem is not just the magnitude of the drawback (since this can be compensated by the benefit from it) but that it completely cancels certain kinds of skill and item investments entirely 17:31:12 And possibly without warning, after some time 17:31:14 elliptic, if removal did not restrict the training of armour and the body facet continued to scale with skill, that wouldn't provide itself as a universal drawback, it seems? 17:31:18 -!- tigertrap has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:31:20 -!- rzimodnar is now known as RZX 17:31:26 Though I suppose you could always make it show up as the first mutation you get, to avoid surprising people? 17:31:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:31:48 -!- Sealer has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:32:02 scaling a mutation with skill sounds sort of weird to me 17:32:09 Alternatively, if the first level of the body slot removing facet came early, the skill stuff may not be a big deal. 17:32:16 elliptic, definitely very different, I would concede. 17:32:24 what is this mutation anyway? pretty hard to have a discussion like this without any specific proposals IMO 17:32:27 Not sure if unavoidably bad, good, or unsensical. 17:32:50 like, I think I'd need to see an example of such a mutation to know what I thought about it 17:33:04 I'll see what I can think of. 17:33:11 Yeah. I am wary, but I don't think it's theoretically unworkable 17:33:15 -!- Sprort has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:33:19 <|amethyst> etherealness: no equipment, can walk though non-permarock 17:33:20 Depending on what it is and how it works 17:33:28 <|amethyst> that's game-changing :P 17:33:49 So... a felid except you can chill out in walls if anything scary shows up? :P 17:34:07 sounds like "can dive the entire dungeon" 17:34:10 <|amethyst> rock kitty 17:34:15 |amethyst: how about just add nomes 17:34:38 hm I should write up a proper mist orc proposal 17:38:30 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:38:31 Any other ideas on stuff that comes out of your back/shoulders that aren't wings? I'm blanking. 17:38:50 -!- inpho has quit [Quit: inpho] 17:39:44 christmas trees 17:39:57 shoulder blades 17:40:08 Blade Shoulders 17:40:10 lol, shoulder blades 17:40:25 You have swords coming out of your back! You try to put on a cloak, its ripped to shreds. 17:40:53 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:22 Xom is pleased by your actions. 17:47:30 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:48:37 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:35 Cryp71c: rocket thrusters 17:50:03 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: turtle shell? 17:50:04 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:50:20 |amethyst, could be. 17:50:24 mumra_, not so much :P 17:50:39 <|amethyst> http://www.venaticfanatics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/founderonback.jpg 17:50:42 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:51:06 -!- zero_one has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:19 I like the idea of a shell. 17:51:32 ...render yourself immobile for a few turns for a huge AC bonus. 17:51:49 And probably something like regeneration (xref: agate snails). 17:51:50 chei invocation 17:52:18 Are there any current DS mutations anymore that are activatable? 17:52:27 I sort of thought those were deliberately removed 17:52:28 only hellfire 17:52:31 Oh yeah 17:52:33 and yeah they were 17:52:34 How could I forget that one 17:52:50 -!- zero_one has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:07 Well, you could make the turtle shell give you an AC bonus against stuff in the opposite direction of where you moved/attacked last! (Except this might be a bit complicated) 17:53:07 We're getting rid of those. 17:53:16 Well, we got rid of them, I should say. 17:56:30 <|amethyst> FR: facing 17:56:44 <|amethyst> (not really) 17:57:15 If you're facing an enemy with kicking attacks and they land one, you start sliding across the floor and can't unshell. 17:57:37 use projectile movement 17:57:55 Grunt, lol 17:57:57 that sounds fun 17:57:59 make hellfire automatic 17:58:08 elliott, triggerable, somehow? 17:58:31 hellfires every single turn 17:58:36 Haha 17:58:53 downside is that it also hellfires you 17:59:25 Clearly make rHellfire a mutation to go with it. 17:59:27 * Grunt flees in terror. 18:00:57 -!- clouded_ is now known as st_ 18:01:04 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 18:01:37 -!- inpho has quit [Quit: inpho] 18:03:57 -!- scummos^ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:08:08 -!- dcssrubot610 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:14 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:12:14 danharaj (L17 MfGl) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1780 failed. (D:20) 18:12:26 !lm danharaj crash -log 18:12:28 6. danharaj, XL17 MfGl, T:38237 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/danharaj/crash-danharaj-20130417-231213.txt 18:18:02 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:18:35 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:18 -!- s951 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:21:21 -!- ldf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:28 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:32:12 As far as I can tell from looking at the save that danharaj provided, the crash was caused by something being misled as a zombie. 18:32:17 ...which isn't supposed to happen. 18:32:23 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:34:34 Well, it is possible that the check was preventing them looking like LARGE_ZOMBIE and SMALL_ZOMBIE and now that those exist it wasn't converted to ZOMBIE properly? 18:34:48 (Since a similar thing affected simulacra attack flavoring) 18:40:44 Incidentally, don't you just hate it when the output of something looks completely correct, yet the debug log of what's going on under the surface doesn't seem like it could have possibly produced this correct behavior? >.> 18:40:53 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:41:12 And now you aren't sure whether the debug output is just wrong, or if there are more mysterious bugs at play 18:46:34 -!- medgno_ has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:09 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:57:14 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:03:47 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:46 -!- Datul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:08:33 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 19:09:52 I tend to wonder if I'm looking at the right logfile 19:15:04 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:04 -!- CeleryMan has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:46 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:24:17 -!- WildSam has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:30:48 -!- wjchen has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 19:38:14 -!- dcssrubot231 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:26 -!- Wester has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:36 -!- BlackSheep_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:39:35 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:10 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 19:46:43 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:46:51 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 19:50:15 so, after putting together the ?amnesia patch, every time I do a pull my gitk shows a "Merge branch 'master'..." 19:51:13 -!- mumra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:34 do I fix that by doing a rebase? 19:51:59 BlackSheep_, yes, git rebase origin/master 19:52:06 (I think) 19:52:18 you can use git log to ensure that your commits are at the top of the log. 19:53:52 Thank you, that did it 20:00:28 -!- ddubois has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:03:10 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 20:08:14 Vampires with rPois can't butcher poisonous corpses by BlackSheep 20:08:14 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Kicked by KickServ] 20:08:50 -!- shachaf has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 20:08:51 we don't exactly have potions of poisonous blood ... 20:08:55 -!- shachaf_ has quit [Changing host] 20:09:01 butcher 20:09:03 not bottle 20:09:04 oh 20:09:05 -!- shachaf_ is now known as shachaf 20:09:10 I want a hide 20:09:38 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:10:20 oh right, I also noticed that the message for trying to butcher a corpse with an XL 1 Vp mentions bottling 20:10:23 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:28 and it really shouldn't given you don't have that ability yet 20:10:40 (or maybe Vp should start with the ability?) 20:11:22 elliptic: it does? 20:12:06 You could drain or bottle this corpse's blood instead. Continue anyway? 20:13:03 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:13:53 BlackSheep_: I think you must have some weird rcfile setting for prompts... I get the same prompt as above ^^ with rPois and can butcher if I press Y 20:13:59 what is that setting called 20:14:02 ??options_guide 20:14:03 rcfile[2/5]: http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/docs/options_guide.txt; 20:14:26 nevermind that if I remember correctly draining a corpse can give a hide, but there's still at least one reason for vampires to chop still 20:14:35 I'll check 20:14:43 SwissStopwatch: yeah 20:14:48 there's simulacrum at the very least 20:15:23 sublimation uses potions, but maybe you get more chunks by chopping? 20:15:33 weird necromancy stuff 20:15:54 elliptic: why don't you check your rcfile? 20:16:08 do you not have it pruned down to just the settings you actually set? 20:16:15 I can also check with the default rcfile, sure 20:16:16 it's confirm_butcher 20:16:49 I have it set to never 20:16:53 yes, that's the problem 20:17:01 with default rcfile it works fine 20:17:12 That's probably still a bug 20:17:20 yeah 20:17:28 I'll update the issue 20:18:32 SamB: my rcfile doesn't list most settings that I leave at the default, so it isn't useful for finding a list of such settings 20:18:57 elliptic: oh 20:19:01 I misunderstood you 20:19:17 * SamB keeps his that way, too 20:20:37 BlackSheep_: you can also git pull --rebase directly 20:20:39 BlackSheep_: hm, it might actually be the intended behavior 20:20:43 and there's a setting to make that default, though I forget it 20:21:23 what I wish is that you could do the equivalent of --ff-only in the config file but override it on the command line 20:21:30 i don't think it's really possible to handle vampires perfectly with confirm_butcher = never 20:21:55 BlackSheep_: if you had sublimation or simulacrum memorizated, you would have butchered it 20:21:59 how do you conditionalize the setting on Vp-ness 20:22:29 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:22:31 well i guess it could just always butcher even though you probably don't want to butcher almost all the time 20:22:39 maybe that's best 20:23:11 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 20:23:17 I never press 'c' on a Vp unless I want to chop up a corpse 20:23:39 yeah... I can see why this was coded this way, though 20:23:57 I always press 'c' at least once on a Vp :P then I macro c to bottling blood 20:23:59 elliott: elliptic: thanks, I'll look for a way to rebase by default 20:24:31 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 20:24:34 i think the setting is named in the git docs somewhere 20:24:35 and if I for some reason find I need to butcher later on, I macro 1 to c 20:24:38 Meantime, I'll make the option conditional 20:24:40 crawl's git docs i mean 20:24:47 git config branch.master.rebase true 20:25:07 MarvinPA: thanks 20:25:35 I press c a lot on vp 20:25:43 IMO c should bottle blood as vp if you have confirm_butcher = never or soemthing :P 20:25:48 alternate idea 20:25:53 maybe bottling should also give chunks? 20:25:55 and just be on c 20:26:02 (and always be available) 20:26:08 (but the chunks wouldn't autopickup) 20:26:10 that sounds sensible 20:26:25 if you need a flavour justification, you only take some of the blood etc. etc. 20:26:26 then you'd have chunks littering the place 20:26:29 can you raise a zombie after draining blood? 20:26:30 sounds messy 20:26:33 of course it should also give hides sometimes 20:26:37 BlackSheep_: no 20:26:39 elliptic: as opposed to having skeletons litter the place? or scale mail and flails and stuff? 20:26:45 elliptic, does the source already have a round method somewhere? 20:26:54 seems sort of irrelevant, they'd just be grey-coloured or whatever 20:26:55 Cryp71c: what sort of round? 20:27:09 or bottling could still give you a hide? 20:27:16 there is div_rand_round() 20:28:18 elliptic, normal round, 2.9 goes up to 3, 2.4 goes down to 2. 20:28:54 ew 20:29:59 I try to avoid non-integers 20:30:19 you can do stuff like (x + 5)/10 to round x/10 I guess 20:30:22 elliptic, yeah, I'm trying to think of a way to implement this idea (Sturdy Backbone) without it. 20:30:25 -!- Adder has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:30:35 But balancing it becomes difficult. 20:30:45 ??evasion penalty 20:30:45 aevp[1/2]: Adjusted body armour evasion penalty. Affects spell success, melee accuracy. Its value is [base_penalty + max(0, 3*base_penalty - str)] * [45 - armour_skill]/45. 20:30:46 what is sturdy backbone 20:30:50 -!- quackv4 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:12 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:17 elliptic, another plate idea on the wiki, fairly new. Wanted to give it a try. +carrying capacity (kind of boring) and - %EVP 20:31:31 -!- quackv4 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:40 -!- mnoqy is now known as monqy 20:31:40 s/plate idea/scales idea 20:31:53 -!- monqy is now known as mnoqy 20:31:53 plate idea? 20:31:55 oh 20:32:45 that sounds weird... after galehar's plans for changing the AEVP formula, it will basically just be the same as +strength 20:33:03 elliptic, ah, right...perhaps that's what it will do then. 20:33:36 Just give +str, because adjusting EVP directly is stupid, as its a base10 int and not base 100 the way some of the other things (like hp) are calculated. 20:33:58 and when I say base10 and base100, I know itsnot REALLY "base100" but that's what came to mind first. 20:35:26 elliptic, is the formulas he's using on that fighting reform, or have they changed? 20:36:04 uh, I think the AEVP stuff is completely separate 20:36:17 it's a far smaller change than the min delay stuff, and not directly related 20:36:21 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 20:36:26 I forget where the formulas are located though 20:36:44 hrm, k. I'll put some tentative + values in for now and play with it after I rebase his branch into mine 20:37:14 Maybe this? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:mutation:stats#str 20:38:59 BlackSheep_, yeah that looks to be where it started, at least. 20:39:03 as far as official documentation goes. 20:39:46 There was a brief discussion on the tavern about it 20:40:04 with some graphs 20:40:58 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 20:41:41 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 20:42:53 -!- ISuckAtDCSS has quit [Quit: • IRcap • 8.71 •] 20:45:22 -!- Utis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:08 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:47:33 ??aevp 20:47:34 aevp[1/2]: Adjusted body armour evasion penalty. Affects spell success, melee accuracy. Its value is [base_penalty + max(0, 3*base_penalty - str)] * [45 - armour_skill]/45. 20:49:59 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:01 elliptic, so galehar's changes are intended to ease the wearing of heavy armour? 20:52:12 no 20:52:22 they are intended to make the formula more sane 20:52:29 and not have a magical breakpoint number 20:52:45 Well, I believe they do also make str more useful even in medium armor? 20:53:10 they also have the effect of making strength a bit more useful, yes 20:54:38 elliptic, I took galehar's link at its face value, it had typos in several formulas making the heavy armour curve dip way lower than it should have. 20:55:28 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:55:56 Here is the most recent formula posted by galehar with corrected formulas for the heaviest armors bit.ly/11ymQiu 20:56:06 Light colors are current aevp formulas, dark are proposed new formulas. 20:58:43 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:59:13 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:02:09 ??gold dragon armour 21:02:10 gold dragon armour[1/3]: 12 ac -9 ev rF+ rC+ rPois. Along with CPA, one of the heaviest heavy armours around. 21:02:38 'One of'? Isn't it literally the heaviest? 21:03:05 ??crystal armour 21:03:05 I don't have a page labeled crystal_armour in my learndb. 21:03:09 ??crystaline armour 21:03:09 I don't have a page labeled crystaline_armour in my learndb. 21:03:13 ... 21:03:14 ??crystal plate 21:03:14 crystal plate armour[1/1]: 14AC, -8EV, 120 aum. The most massive heavy armour. Resists corrosion. 21:03:34 Well, unless by 'heavy' they meant 'most AC' instead of 'most EVP' 21:03:43 most aum!!! 21:03:46 Haha 21:03:50 yeah, most aum is what they mean. 21:03:51 "most massive" 21:03:56 does cpa actually weigh more 21:04:00 It might 21:04:03 I think GDA is 110? 21:04:10 ??GDA 21:04:10 gold dragon armour[1/3]: 12 ac -9 ev rF+ rC+ rPois. Along with CPA, one of the heaviest heavy armours around. 21:04:12 how do you know how much gda weighs 21:04:14 !learn edit gold_dragon_armour[1] s/one of/the/ 21:04:14 gold dragon armour[1/3]: 12 ac -9 ev rF+ rC+ rPois. Along with CPA, the the heaviest heavy armours around. 21:04:17 I have no idea 21:04:18 <|amethyst> GDA is 110, yes 21:04:19 it doesn't say 21:04:24 i have an idea 21:04:24 !learn edit gold_dragon_armour[1] s/the the/the/ 21:04:25 gold dragon armour[1/3]: 12 ac -9 ev rF+ rC+ rPois. Along with CPA, the heaviest heavy armours around. 21:04:29 !learn edit gold_dragon_armour[1] s/ Along.*// 21:04:30 gold dragon armour[1/3]: 12 ac -9 ev rF+ rC+ rPois. 21:04:34 No, I actually didn't look it up, seriously :P 21:04:52 ??robe 21:04:53 robe[1/1]: +2 ac 0 ev light armour 21:04:55 ??leather armour 21:04:55 leather armour[1/1]: +3 AC, -1 EV, 15 AUM 21:05:05 ??armour 21:05:06 armour[1/3]: If a monster hits you for up-to-X damage, and you have Y AC, you take some damage or so, with a minimum of 0. Special effects like poison are not applied in the 0-damage case. Melee attacks are affected by {gdr}. 21:05:06 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 21:05:10 ??armour[2] 21:05:11 armour skill[1/2]: Armour skill defrays the penalties associated with heavy armours, and increases the effectiveness of your armour by 1/22nd of its base value per level of skill. 21:05:14 ??armour[3] 21:05:14 armour[3/3]: Wearing heavy armor gives you extra penalties unless you have strength of at least 3x(base evp) 21:05:35 Gah, was hoping for a nice simple list for stupid people 21:05:36 ??ring mail 21:05:37 ring mail[1/1]: +5 ac -2 ev. 21:05:38 ??chain mail 21:05:38 chain mail[1/1]: 7 AC, -4 EV. 21:05:54 ??scale mail 21:05:54 scale mail[1/1]: 6 AC, -3 EV. 21:06:00 ??plate 21:06:00 plate armour[1/1]: +10 ac -6 ev. Weighs 65.0 aum. 21:06:07 ??armours 21:06:07 armours[1/2]: Robe:2/-0 Steam:5/-0,rSteam Leather:3/-1 Troll:4/-1,regen Mottled:6/-1,rSticky Ring:5/-2 Swamp:7/-2,rPois Scale:6/-3 Fire:8/-3,rF++,rC- Ice:9/-3,rC++,rF- Pearl:10/-3,rN Chain:7/-4 Splint:8/-5 Storm:10/-5,rElec Plate:10/-6 Crystal:14/-8 Gold:12/-9,rF,rC,rPois 21:06:07 Is there a -5 I'm forgettnig? 21:06:12 elliptic, thanks -_- 21:06:12 splint 21:06:15 splint, storm 21:06:22 Splint mail for maximum protection / flexibility!!!! 21:06:22 <_< 21:08:19 -!- dcssrubot495 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:12 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 21:16:14 Here is a complete graph: http://bit.ly/13jNR9u 21:17:30 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:45 elliptic, you think his formula (shown in these graphs) is close enough to be implemented? 21:18:37 there were some concerns, I imagine it still should be tweaked a bit 21:18:59 03elliptic 07* 0.13-a0-398-g47f71f5: Don't tell vampires they can bottle blood when they can't. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 9+ 5-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=47f71f5e1806 21:18:59 Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.12 21:19:58 where is the current proposal? 21:25:54 Ok, night. Thanks for all the help everyone 21:25:57 -!- BlackSheep_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:42 elliptic, https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:mutation:stats#str has some of the formulas 21:28:39 -!- infiniplex has joined ##crawl-dev 21:28:58 right, I told galehar some comments about that april 11 proposal 21:29:07 I'd say it definitely needs more polishing 21:29:29 in particular I don't like changing the base AC values 21:29:32 -!- Zifmia has quit [] 21:31:14 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:33:20 Question: I ran util/checkwhite (in msysgit on Windows) and it changed many (every?) file invisibly (line endings?). How can I fix this? 21:33:23 -!- Unflexed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:36:03 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Quit: I've killed the senator.] 21:41:26 infiniplex: don't run that in windows? 21:42:30 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:34 How do I get back to a good version? (I have copies of what I was doing.) 21:43:09 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:47:47 git reset --hard, maybe? 21:49:06 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:50:53 -!- Unflexed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:52:48 It put my back to my last commit, which is actually better. Thank you! 21:55:05 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 21:56:51 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 22:01:23 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:01:34 -!- Rebthor has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:01:57 -!- popbob_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:02:50 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:03:33 -!- crate has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:33 -!- popbob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:59 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:05:34 -!- greensnark has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:34 -!- domiryuu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:42 Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-398-g47f71f5 22:06:41 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 22:09:22 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 22:09:24 -!- bh has quit [Changing host] 22:09:24 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 22:09:34 DracoOmega: thank you for making HOPr playable. 22:09:59 You're welcome :) 22:10:21 Recall did make Zot trivial though. 22:11:26 Oh, you're doe? 22:11:28 *done 22:11:29 !lg bh 22:11:30 1294. bh the Axe Maniac (L27 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2013-04-17 07:38:06, with 1448633 points after 87362 turns and 9:04:35. 22:11:32 \o/ 22:11:45 I got caught up in winning my own game :) 22:11:55 I could have gotten the Abyss rune, but I didn't want to spend the time 22:12:17 Grunt: I tried recalling my orcs while standing on the upstairs of D:1 for a group photo and I crashed. 22:12:20 Well, it would trivialize Zot a lot less than old recall could have 22:12:54 Most of my horde got slaughtered in my (oldBeogh) HOPr win. 22:14:15 Grunt: by the time I hit Zot:5, I have 7 or 8 warlords 22:14:43 at one point I had to fall back and recalled the troops. From the edge of LOS a mostly dead OOF showed up and immediately got shot to death 22:14:45 I think I had 6 going in to Zot? 22:14:52 I've never been so proud. 22:15:08 bh, feh, I had a different kind of Zot:5 horde in my recent win :b 22:15:41 time to retire HOPr of Beogh ;) 22:15:49 Beogh smites you! 22:16:21 what, did that thing where you can get Beogh from an orcish [high] priest in LoS go in now? 22:17:48 wha? 22:18:06 as in, you pray when you can see a priest and you get Beogh? 22:19:44 something like that 22:19:53 that's neat. 22:20:07 I don't think it's implemented though 22:20:52 It is not. The main problem seems to be how to convey to the player that they can do this 22:23:15 The orc [high] priest says "Beogh calls you to his service, heretic!" 22:24:10 the problem with monster speech lines is they just sound like monster speech lines :P 22:25:01 or nobody's been able to come up with a good way of wording one that isn't just "press p to convert to beogh" yet at least 22:25:28 I still think the once-per-game actual prompt might be okay 22:25:58 Or make the first time the monster gives this speech in a game also print a message in system text after it saying as much 22:26:14 -!- Zifmia has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:42 MarvinPA: I thought we were gonna put (Press p to convert) after the monspeak line 22:29:36 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:29:37 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:57 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:32:48 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 22:37:24 SamB: what about having the priest create an altar? 22:38:23 That would involve a lot of altar dropping everywhere 22:38:30 Given the number of priests you see 22:38:48 Also, there is an interesting gameplay tension in being able to conver to save yourself from death to a priest, which wouldn't happen if you still had to make it all the way to the altar 22:39:08 (Like, I think the idea was that converting to Beogh here would also grab the priest as a follower) 22:39:42 -!- blackcustard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:50 DracoOmega: I meant, create an altar once 22:40:58 but sure, that makes sense 22:43:20 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 22:45:55 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:15 Is there a way I can turn 2 commits into 1 patch file instead of 2? 22:46:46 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:28 why not squash them? 22:49:07 How? 22:49:24 git rebase -i 22:49:30 ...change one line to "squash" :b 22:49:33 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:49:39 (That's probably more complicated than necessary, but I find it easier to grok.) 22:50:00 -!- danharaj has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 22:50:10 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:51:34 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 22:55:23 -!- rwbarton has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:58:57 It worked. Thank you! 23:00:05 Converted parts of layout_pools to C++ by infiniplex 23:00:28 -!- varmin has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:00:50 -!- Comradin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:01:17 -!- broquaint has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:02:17 -!- broquaint has joined ##crawl-dev 23:02:18 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:02:32 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:02:48 -!- Zifmia has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:07:13 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 23:09:58 -!- SealerDic has quit [] 23:11:00 -!- madreisz has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:17:07 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 23:20:04 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 23:20:18 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:21:40 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:07 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36:25 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:53 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:37:18 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 23:39:22 -!- spriseris has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:26 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 23:40:30 03Cryp71c 07[ds_trade_offs] * 0.13-a0-399-gf5432ac: Remove dprf accidentally left in 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f5432ac14e6c 23:40:30 03Cryp71c 07[ds_trade_offs] * 0.13-a0-400-g092fa32: Differentiate Iridescent and Rough Black scales 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=092fa32faf0b 23:41:10 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:43:16 uh, 12 AC? 23:43:46 that sounds like a lot 23:44:53 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 23:46:44 how often is the -3 dex really that notable, I wonder 23:47:01 pretty sure that 4 AC is better than 3 dex for literally every character 23:47:35 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:47:43 elliptic: what if you have 50 AC in mda or something 23:47:46 You could always go further in that direction and make it lower dex by more than that, I suppose, but rough black scales were already quite good (though it's true that they are pretty similar to iridescent ones) 23:47:46 3 dex can lose a bit of EV on a robes dodging char but probably not enough to seriously offset 4 AC or even 2 AC 23:48:23 why does it even matter if two scales are pretty similar? 23:48:42 I don't think it's necessarily a problem, no 23:48:43 it's not like you are ever directly comparing them 23:49:11 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:49:36 how much of a goal is it to keep Ds mutations on a given slot in balance with the other ones? 23:49:54 since that would be the only way it could really matter 23:50:28 balanced and differentiated are pretty unrelated 23:51:20 Well, I think it's okay if some are definitely better than others, so long as none of them are individually TOO strong 23:51:20 -!- Krakhan|2 is now known as Krakhan 23:51:22 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 23:51:33 (And it's best if none are terrible, even if some are obviously LESS desireable) 23:51:49 I kind of misstated that but at any rate 23:52:04 I'm not sure an extra 2 AC is really too different 23:52:10 since it's the Dex penalty that's the real departure 23:52:28 and that already makes it pretty different 23:52:50 well, I'm not sure why we are buffing what was arguably the best scales mut 23:53:16 some power variation is fine, but I think ideally we would like to avoid clear outliers on the power scale 23:53:25 Yes, ideally 23:53:48 I think iridescent was PROBABLY stronger, but they were close as-is 23:53:51 because that just makes players unhappy with their "bad luck" (either by not getting the really good one or by getting the really bad one) 23:53:51 we could have an MD mut 23:53:56 which we could then remove as OP 23:54:07 MD were never OP :P 23:54:28 you wouldn't think it the way people have talked ... 23:54:35 Well, heavy armour was OP at one point 23:54:47 But MD was basically worse than either present HO or Mi 23:54:59 More or less 23:55:36 certainly MD wasn't removed because of power level considerations, yes 23:56:17 if you look at md aptitudes it's amazing anyone wants them back 23:56:27 +3 armour!!!!!!! 23:56:27 Well, the people that want them back don't want them back for apt reasons 23:56:29 how would you do that? 23:56:30 But flavour ones 23:56:35 elliptic: They only had +2, I think 23:56:37 oh 23:56:38 Gimli cosplayers 23:56:42 are you sure? 23:56:45 -!- Havvy has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:56:49 how *do* we look at them 23:56:55 I think, but I will double-check them 23:57:03 There's a handy table on the blog from the original removal 23:57:23 https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/whisper-farewell-when-you-leave-gimli 23:57:33 Oh, I guess they did have +3 23:57:41 My mistake 23:58:18 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]