00:00:31 Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-b1-91-g252a7a8 00:00:41 I already pushed; if someone comes up with ideas they like better, they can always revert :P 00:01:24 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-365-g68ecb99 (34) 00:01:29 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-366-g5ab375c (34) 00:01:43 how about: when you pick skald, it changes into necromancer 00:02:19 nice, CSZO has the buffed skald and CDO does not 00:02:28 omg unfair 00:02:35 it's ok because cszo has tileschat and cdo does not 00:02:51 -!- Naruni has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:01 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:44 03elliptic 07* 0.13-a0-366-g5ab375c: Give Skalds a +1 weapon and a potion of berserk rage to start. 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5ab375cf0153 00:06:45 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:07:20 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:44 * SamB just dumped a bunch of jimmies on his icecream by opening the wrong door on the container ... whoops! 00:08:26 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-366-g5ab375c 00:23:51 -!- Beneather has quit [Quit: Beneather] 00:32:55 -!- Boyo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:40:05 -!- faz has quit [] 00:43:35 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:45 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:55:00 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 00:55:57 At some point the idea of giving skald a L1 charms spell that temporarily enchanted a weapon to maybe +2 occured to me, but that sounds more annoying than what just happened 00:56:59 what would happen if someone read an EW while it was active?!?! 00:57:10 yeah, probably more annoying in a number of ways ;-) 00:57:21 I can think of like 5 ways it would be annoying 00:57:49 Of course the spell is already in the skald book anyway and it's called "Freezing Brand" so 01:00:36 magicpoints (L14 NaFi) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1177 failed. (D (Sprint)) 01:06:27 magicpoints (L14 NaFi) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 592 failed. 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05:19:41 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:21 in terms of interest, could have some unique things that come later; e.g. you could grow a third arm and have an extra ring slot and/or wield giant 2-handers; or a 2nd neck and wear two amulets (one of grunt's suggestions) 05:20:37 (i did say this was probably a silly idea!) 05:22:18 in terms of flavour you're a formless ball of chaos, with order gradually emerging as you develop into an almost-human form 05:26:29 i don't think the annoying part is really _that_ annoying, no more annoying than running back to pick up any item with the stash tracker 05:32:25 ...and i was more thinking that would be offset by the feeling of "oh great, i can wear boots now, time to go and check out those runed boots i found and see what they are" 05:33:26 -!- eggonlegs has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:39:48 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:41:37 -!- eggonlegs has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:41:43 -!- voker57 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:53 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 05:48:46 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:50:14 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 05:51:26 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 05:57:24 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:16:14 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:16:34 the problem isnt checking out those runed boots, its checking out those 6 amulets, or those 12 rings, or those 4 regular pairs of boots 06:16:40 -!- Sealer has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:16:47 (one of them might be +1) 06:17:33 -!- Nivim has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:23 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:38 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:26:22 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:57 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:18 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:38 alefury: you can wear-id rings from the word go. boots/gloves are not all that common and if there are at least some guarantees that one or two slots will open up a given XL 06:32:39 then it's not hard to carry around a pair of gloves/boots or two or three that you might have found. 06:32:48 ^ "open up by a given XL" 06:33:09 an above-average carry capacity to begin with could help this further 06:33:36 and amulets aren't that heavy to carry a few around until you have an amulet slot (also not that common) 06:36:08 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:38:18 sure, carrying a bunch of currently useless stuff with you is the other annoying way for players to deal with certain slots opening up later 06:38:23 overall i just dont see the appeal 06:38:40 the theme is very cool, but variable equipment slots just doesnt seem interesting to me 06:40:01 not knowing which slots you might get is the only interesting thing about it imo 06:40:15 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:40:43 certainly not stepping on Ds toes too much, "something like Ds and Dr but different" could be pretty cool IMO 06:42:22 fair enough to all of the above; i think there are additional ways an entirely chaotic being could be made more appealing, i wanted to see if the core mechanic worked first though 06:42:38 something else that would slightly save annoyance: 06:42:57 you start getting an indication fairly early about which slots will ultimately be available 06:43:10 so "You grow the stub of a hand" 06:43:22 "You can now wear two rings" 06:43:39 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:46 this means that your arm is growing and soon you'll be able to wear gloves and then wield a 2-hander 06:45:11 the main problem i see with the variable slots mechanic is that most slots are just not that interesting 06:45:38 also dont require much thought to make use of, you just put the best thing you have in there, done 06:47:30 2h weapons and body armor are the only restrictions that change much IMO. also huge changes like Op rings of course. 06:47:52 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:56 true 06:48:29 -!- dcssrubot942 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:10 the possibility of an extra amulet slot is intriguing 06:49:12 additional amulet slots might come in handy, especially in extended 06:49:46 but in a lot of games i dont even have one really useful amulet for a large part of the game 06:50:01 being able to wear faith and have another slot for swapping would be really neat 06:50:36 that slot should come late anyway, you have to grow a proper head first 06:52:05 maybe body armour should just never be an option; and the 2nd amulet slot would restrict both helmets and cloaks 06:52:33 i think its just not a good idea overall :/ 06:52:37 so there's a point in the midgame where you can wear a helmet and cloak but then lose that option at some point 06:52:56 maybe some other cool think could be done with the chaos sprite theme though 06:53:14 s/think/thing 06:53:21 alefury: very probably just a bad idea ;) but i really liked the theme and maybe others will think of something good around it 06:54:26 it was another take on the "reverse Ds" concept, you're gaining slots instead of losing them 06:55:38 slot changes could work as part of a larger set of chaotic modifications, like the Ds body slot facets 06:56:24 but too many of them would very likely be annoying while not being very interesting 06:58:11 having a single facet that determines available slots could be cool though, you would know fairly early which one you got 06:59:01 something in-between Dr and Ds could be fun, you get something like two facets, one determines slots, the other one is another major modification, like powerful abilities or apt changes 06:59:11 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:59:27 preferably with a chaos theme :) 07:04:20 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:21 i was thinking a chaos-branded melee attack, or for weapon starts you automatically get chaos brand (but you're very vulnerable). of course you have intrinsic rmut. maybe !mut could even do something good for this race. 07:04:58 but to take the chaos theme to its logical conclusion, i suppose the most obvious thing would be that your character is regularly changing throughout the game 07:05:20 i.e. both gaining and losing things rather than purely gaining 07:06:33 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:37 (and yes apts/abilities/etc. would also be worth considering) 07:11:08 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:13:50 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:15:19 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:31:11 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:37:25 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37:56 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:38:50 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:38:51 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:46:37 -!- freefall has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:48:03 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:09 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:20 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:59:14 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:02:40 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:11:03 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:11:39 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:11:51 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:53 -!- ISuckAtDCSS has quit [] 08:13:41 idea for fire/freezing brand: a small chance to create a (low stength) clound of fire/ice respectively when you kill something 08:13:55 ^ for the spells i mean 08:18:34 -!- dcssrubot611 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:19:25 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:38 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:25:26 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:43 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:27 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 08:33:14 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:36:59 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:26 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:41:20 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:43:24 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:43:26 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:11 -!- pythonsnake has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:57:12 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:57:49 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:10:50 -!- dagonfive1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:13:09 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:18:54 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:21:15 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:22:34 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 09:23:53 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:24:50 mumra: seems more annoying than useful 09:27:02 perhaps. someone in the skald discussion commented that the brand spells could be made more interesting. i don't see much else that could be done with them. (skalds are better now anyway) 09:27:16 yeah 09:33:12 -!- CrazyArbalest has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:39:13 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:42:51 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:48:39 -!- dcssrubot688 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:25 mumra: I never seriously suggested two-headed two-amulet wearers!!! 09:53:14 Grunt: i know, that's why this is _two-necked_ 09:53:17 * mumra flees in terror 09:53:47 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:00:13 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:02:46 mumra: skalds changed? 10:03:23 hey how do i report a map for being dumb 10:03:43 this dungeon level has all of it's staircases going up on one side of a deep water river 10:03:50 and all the staircases going down on the other 10:04:26 whoops nevermind found a trapdoor 10:05:06 that still sounds kind of messed up 10:05:30 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:37 doome: that would be layout_bigger_room 10:06:43 which only rarely generates with a river 10:07:12 -!- Koolguydude has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 10:07:17 doome: are you on a server so i can check? 10:08:21 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:09:38 By that description, it's probably lemuel_river_lethe :b 10:10:43 isn't that crossable though? 10:11:16 doome: how deep in the dungeon is this? 10:11:51 And no, lemuel_river_lethe can't immediately be crossed; there is, however, a downstair prominently placed. 10:12:22 there was a staircase that i missed 10:12:30 i am on a very long crawl binge 10:12:49 Can you show us the level map, doome? 10:12:55 (doome is doome on cszo, I presume) 10:13:05 sure in one second 10:13:10 wanna clear this level of orc 10:13:23 I'll be right back... 10:13:29 Grunt: river_lethe isn't what was described as in all up stairs on one side / all down on the other 10:13:46 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:13:57 here's the staircase that i missed 10:14:00 thug life 10:14:13 well it's not river lethe 10:14:19 but i'm not entirely sure what it is 10:14:20 Probably Erik's rubicon 10:14:58 doome: could you take a save backup and post to mantis so i can check it in debug mode? 10:15:10 also if it's on mantis then i won't forget to look into it at some point ;) 10:15:17 It seems fine though? 10:16:34 it is ok i guess unless you don't want an uncrossable river bisecting a level 10:16:48 and how do i do such a thing 10:16:48 but you missed a staircase? 10:17:06 so actually there were stairs on both sides so you could traverse it without needing a trapdoor? 10:17:09 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:17:35 i mean, it'd still be better to guarantee a shallow water crossing or something 10:18:26 doome: you might have missed the fact that potions of flight were generated on that level too 10:18:35 greensnark: yeah it was rubicon, thanks 10:20:51 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:21:23 what a strange vault though 10:21:35 to properly be the rubicon it should be shallow and have red water ... 10:22:45 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:26:52 So, I missed the showing off of the vault? 10:27:05 s/vault/river/ 10:27:18 Grunt: it was erik_rubicon_a or erik_rubicon_b 10:27:42 'kay. 10:27:43 i took a screenshot but firstly there was a stair both sides, secondly there were potions of flight knocking around 10:29:02 -!- DrPraetor|2 is now known as DrPraetor 10:29:25 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:29:36 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:40:09 -!- ToastyP has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:20 -!- Pedjt has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:45:08 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:46:39 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:33 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:52:48 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:53:28 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:57:55 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:24 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:09:01 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:09:32 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:10:24 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:03 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:18:44 -!- dcssrubot881 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:25 -!- fiyawerx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:48 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:25:40 -!- syraine has quit [Quit: Fli] 11:27:04 Can't sacrifice items to Nemelex Xobeh by nubinia 11:27:31 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:28:27 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:37:03 -!- morik has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:47:26 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:10 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:02:21 -!- bitsailor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:22 -!- bitsailor_ has quit [Changing host] 12:02:22 -!- bitsailor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:05 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:05:28 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11.2-13-g9771293 12:09:59 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-366-g5ab375c (34) 12:10:39 -!- dagonfive1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:23 -!- Leafsnail has quit [Quit: I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!!!] 12:12:31 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 12:12:38 Grunt: Interesting improvement to layout_cathedral_of_symmetry coming up 12:18:06 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-367-ga233b34: Sometimes use a polar transform in layout_cathedral_of_symmetry 10(8 minutes ago, 2 files, 19+ 5-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a233b34d8065 12:18:58 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 12:21:41 -!- Wah has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:26:29 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:41:12 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:56 Another closed-source roguelike bites the dust: Incursion is dead. At least the author had the decency to announce the demise. But he couldn't bring himself to release the code. 12:41:57 dpeg: You have 7 messages. Use !messages to read them. 12:44:19 if the project is dead, why not release the source? 12:45:05 G-Flex: I'm guessing it was too embarrassing 12:45:23 haha 12:46:34 G-Flex: because "he might come back to it later". I think that's the worst part... bhaak has sad stories to tell about this mode of thinking. 12:46:54 rip incursion, greatest character creation simulator ever 12:47:00 Happily, Linley was never as narrow-minded as that. 12:47:02 I know better 12:47:31 typical dpeg exaggeration: "I'm not "abandoning" it, and I'm not releasing the sources" 12:47:36 I still don't publish all I should, I guess 12:48:20 Someone told me that Incursion'S gods would give those of Crawl a run for their money. Then I looked at an Incursion spoiler, and I was not impressed (hence relieved). 12:48:36 he hasn't worked on Incursion for fucking 4(!) months and he feels he must tell people about it 12:48:48 he's clearly no nethack dev 12:48:50 -!- dcssrubot809 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:52 bhaak: well, we both know what's most likely to come out of it if he makes an announcement like this 12:49:11 how is this not abandoning it 12:49:24 Nethack: "Okay guys, we've been fixing the steed bug for forty years now. The game is alive and kicking!" 12:50:13 G-Flex: he saying "I'm not developping it at the moment, so you now know it's on hold." But abandoning would be saying "I have no intention of ever coming back" 12:50:39 fair enough 12:50:45 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:50 I think I took a break from crawl for the better part of a year without really any announcement except that I was going to work on getting the gcc doc packages for Debian updated... 12:50:51 bhaak: he does say a bit more. Perhaps some can link his statement (I can't, sorry). 12:51:05 http://www.incursion-roguelike.org/news.html 12:51:10 thx! 12:51:13 -!- Netmonmatt has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:51:15 SamB: Crawl is not a one man show! 12:51:21 and the code is open anyway 12:51:22 true 12:51:26 well, that may be what you could take just reading that line, if you know what incursion is and how long it's been in development, it's clear that it is never going to exist even if he was working on it 12:51:32 http://www.incursion-roguelike.org/templogo.jpg 12:51:36 this is a really awful logo 12:51:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:51:49 URL is jpeg'd to hell 12:52:23 * bhaak stops short of making a foo-peg joke 12:52:28 G-Flex: stop insulting my sister!!1!!! 12:52:48 I thought the mpegs were your sisters 12:53:16 mpeg would be my wife, if she had a nick 12:54:00 <|amethyst> Ploog Vorbis 12:54:01 now that you mention it, it's true that she moves around much more than your sister 12:54:20 Perhaps he can crowdsource Incursion THE RESURRECTION in five years 12:54:32 -!- dtsund has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:49 and make a living out of it 12:54:55 <|amethyst> dpeg: the shame about not releasing the source is that it sounds like the potential to be a widely-used engine 12:55:37 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:41 things like this dead-project announcements are the reason I like my projects to be in a state that they are useful/playable even if I'd drop from the net tomorrow 12:55:49 <|amethyst> dpeg: (though I do still question the wisdom of inventing a new scripting language) 12:56:02 |amethyst: I agree, but there's to many to be ashamed of: as I see it, it's a kind of greed to not give the thing to your loyal players -- as if they'd tear it apart within moments, rather than keeping it alive and making it better. It's such a negative attitude. 12:56:14 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:56:17 bhaak: You are a wise man! 12:57:35 <|amethyst> dpeg: if he's working on a tabletop RPG with the same setting I can see not opening the content, since that might kill a publishing deal 12:57:40 s/to many/more/ 12:57:55 <|amethyst> dpeg: maybe the content and code aren't as well-separated as one would like 12:57:58 |amethyst: always sucks if money is involved :) 12:58:11 * dpeg gives Hans Siste Vinter an honorary play, to the blessed memory of Incursion. 12:58:16 |amethyst, of course code and content aren't separated, it's a roguelike ;) 12:58:52 Zaba: didn't the ToME guy try and succeed at this? 12:59:07 <|amethyst> Zaba: the whitepaper made it sound like content was (or maybe would be) implemented in this IncursionScript language 12:59:33 <|amethyst> Zaba: so at the very least there's the compiler/vm for that 12:59:41 well, I wasn't being entirely serious, to say the least 13:00:10 <|amethyst> next 1 April we should re-skin Crawl into a sci-fi game 13:00:31 |amethyst: complete with Mounted Dwarves! 13:00:45 |amethyst: but he's been developing it since 2006. if this new project of his also takes this long to get to a finished state ... 13:00:53 <|amethyst> Just change the monster, item, skill names---no real gameplay difference 13:00:56 nonetheless, the value of using a preexisting game engine often diminishes very quickly as you deviate from the game it's been originally made for 13:01:11 watch out, there is a real demand for sf roguelikes. you may not be able to change back! 13:01:13 and it becomes about as hard to beat the existing code into doing what you want as it is to write your own 13:01:15 bhaak: I got the impression that he realised that the scope for his old project was way too vast, and he's settling for something smaller and more realistic. 13:01:27 <|amethyst> bhaak: I'd say a tabletop RPG is easier than a roguelike to get into a sellable state 13:01:43 so I wouldn't be overly depressed about somebody not sharing theirs 13:01:45 * dpeg wants the gold god. 13:02:00 <|amethyst> s/sellable/presentable/ 13:02:02 |amethyst: incursion apparently also has a tabletop form 13:02:22 <|amethyst> bhaak: I thought that was the new project . . . maybe I misread 13:02:45 <|amethyst> bhaak: oh 13:02:49 <|amethyst> bhaak: I did misread, I see 13:02:50 dpeg: he describes incursion as "huge, huge project". this "diversion" could still be magnitudes bigger than tome4 or dcss ;-) 13:03:10 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:21 Did anyone here play Incursion? If we cannot steal from it, it's no loss anyway :) 13:05:46 hehe, Beuteroguelikecontent 13:06:36 hark, let's plunder the carcass of our fellow roguelike corpses 13:06:56 I'm not sure you would like it as it is based on the d20 system. 13:07:12 soo ... I want to make recalled companions (and companions who were skipped because they were already close enough to you) revert to "follow me!" (or whatever it is that they default to when you haven't given any orders) 13:08:09 dpeg: Fedhas appreciates Incursion's contribution to the roguelike ecosystem! 13:08:18 <3 13:09:27 although it seems that contribution is rather paltry -- perhaps Incursion is undead? 13:09:36 oh, except dudes already trying to kill enemies within the players LoS should probably keep doing that 13:11:32 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:15:12 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:15:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:29:01 -!- home_ has quit [Changing host] 13:29:06 -!- home_ is now known as home 13:31:21 -!- Koolguydude has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 13:31:29 -!- smeea has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:32:12 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:35:04 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Kicked by KickServ] 13:36:29 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:12 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:45:53 -!- rossi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:47:30 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:49:31 -!- Stendarr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:51:38 -!- mumra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:43 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:54:13 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 13:55:01 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:55:06 -!- mumra_ has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:23 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:59 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 14:02:10 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:03:03 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:37 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:45 !messages 14:06:45 No messages for bh. 14:07:25 -!- bh has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:32 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:14:35 * SamB wishes there were a way to detect useless #includes 14:16:12 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 14:17:14 SamB: i'm pretty sure there is 14:17:56 hmm, is there a paper explaining that? 'cause it seems non-trivial to me 14:18:56 -!- dcssrubot226 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:40 I'm sure kilobyte would be happy to have this, too. 14:20:04 well, it seems doxygen can show dependency graphs ... which you can use manually to work out which includes are redundant ... but yeah it's more complicated than i thought :P 14:20:38 -!- mnoqy has quit [Quit: hello] 14:21:17 I mean, it would be pretty trivial if it weren't for the preprocessor and the habbit of using stuff from AppHdr.h (and what it pulls in) in headers without including AppHdr.h in those headers 14:21:40 I think kilobyte has a script to clean useless includes but it's not 100% reliable 14:21:55 he did clean a bunch somewhat recently 14:22:09 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22:45 SamB: about recall and follow behaviour, I think it would be good to differentiate follow/stay and attack/defend orders 14:22:56 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:23:04 (Also I'm pretty sure doing it right requires compiler assistance) 14:23:11 galehar: defend? 14:23:17 having to tell your guys to stay here so that they attack on sight is annoying and uninituitive 14:23:32 defend is what the do when following you 14:23:36 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:23:45 they attack what you attack or what attack them 14:23:49 its commonly called "dick around" 14:24:18 I just want to stop them running off when you recall them 14:24:31 like so many players before you... 14:24:46 SamB: https://code.google.com/p/include-what-you-use/ 14:24:49 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Changing host] 14:24:50 yeah but most of them didn't have commit access 14:24:52 I think it would be good to have 4 orders: follow me, stay here, attack on sight, defensive stance 14:25:09 SamB: apparently this does it as well but it's commercial - http://www.gimpel.com/html/lintspec.htm 14:25:13 so it _is_ possible 14:25:17 SamB: if you have that, you can set them back to "follow" and keep their attack behaviour 14:26:13 I don't particularly wish to rewrite their AI ... 14:30:45 in that case, maybe reset their behaviour to follow unless they have a foe and it's still in LOS 14:31:00 yes, that's basically what I have now 14:31:22 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:36 though it seems that BEH_SEEK is used both for following the player and for attacking something, depending on whether foe is MHITNOT or something else 14:36:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:11 -!- rkd has quit [] 14:39:59 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:40:22 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:45:54 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 14:46:05 yes, when they are following, behaviour is BEH_SEEK and foe is MHITYOU I think 14:51:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:54:05 -!- Elkan has quit [Quit: Quitte] 14:57:21 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:16 -!- mnoqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:40 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:05:59 -!- rossi___ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:07:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:09:14 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 15:13:04 oh, you're right, MHITYOU 15:15:48 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:16:41 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:16 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:17:35 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:19:11 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19:39 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:40 Hai. Would it make sense to categorize races like we categorize jobs in the selection page? 15:20:01 which races are adventurers? 15:20:15 ;-P 15:20:32 historically categorizing races has not always turned out for the best 15:21:03 ? There seem to be some well defined categories. Undead, small, 15:21:16 :P 15:22:04 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:22:56 well, the job categories are easier since they fall into better-defined categories of playstyle: hitting, hitting with gods, hitting and also magic, magic, and whatever 15:24:05 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 15:24:46 Why not categorize them by difficulty? 15:25:07 bh: at the time when job categorisation was discussed and implemented, races were discussed as well and several options were considered but none of them really worked very well! 15:25:20 i have to dig through ancient tavern threads for this ... 15:25:28 difficulty of a species depends on your background and also how good of a player you are, iirc 15:25:30 Mumra: tavern. Heh 15:25:57 bh: i know. i think this was before i even knew about the irc channels... 15:26:36 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:27:08 they are catergorised, just not in clearly marked sections 15:28:08 Right. Normal races are nearer to humans. Weird stuff is further away 15:28:10 which aren't particularly useful to note, because they don't indicate playstyles etc 15:28:39 Ghoul plays differently from mu :) 15:29:34 bh: ok here is where a change to the job menu was first suggested - https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=847&p=9553#p9553 15:29:47 Mumra: I'm going to try to make a mandelzot layout 15:29:49 (you can all laugh at how my OP demonstrates zero knowledge of the game!) 15:30:00 bh: smock actually suggested the categories 15:30:11 then galehar leapt in and implemented it! 15:30:54 basically there just aren't really good ways of partitioning the species into groups 15:31:15 yeah, that was the conclusion reached later on in that thread 15:31:20 vintermann, what a hero 15:31:22 -!- rossi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:31:24 the origin of BATTLEMAGE 15:31:24 i'll put the species traits into a phylogenetics program and build an evolutionary species tree 15:31:27 when i tried to come up with species categories heh 15:32:01 bh: mandelzot layout sounds ace by the way, and there are lots of parameters to randomise! 15:32:03 Nicolae: hell yeah. 15:32:45 Mumra: how about a Julia fractal? 15:33:15 can I put in a request for having zot layouts be less open 15:33:17 yes, julia also good 15:33:32 fractal layouts would rock 15:33:40 -!- bh has quit [Quit: back in an hour - train] 15:33:47 I don't much like how the really open new ones play, because monsters in zot are quite loud and you end up fighting everything at the stairs 15:34:11 so where should we have julias? 15:34:48 elliptic: yes -- so far i haven't really had much feedback either way specifically from devteam members on whether the openness was a good or bad thing 15:34:58 but i've been slowly making the new ones a bit less open anyway 15:35:05 although there's more i could do in this regard 15:36:52 there are two in particular that tend to be very open quite often, i can tune the parameters quite a bit on these; and i want to do stuff like adding extra geometry such as pillars and so forth to give a bit more to work with 15:37:29 mumra: most devs can't reach Zot, or rarely do because they don't play enough :) 15:37:55 elliptic: although another aspect to this could be thinking about tweaking zot monsters themselves if it's their behaviour / loudness that prevents layout flexibility 15:38:04 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:35 galehar: i know, i haven't exactly made it there in a normal game myself since i added the new layouts :P -- i was nearly going to but Lamia 15:39:41 i've gotten to zot once in a normal game, ever 15:39:56 -!- rzimodnar has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:40:07 -!- randomizr is now known as rzimodnar 15:40:55 nicolae-: at least you've made it there! 15:41:13 some devs have barely been past lair ... 15:42:01 crazy stuff 15:42:09 well, breath weapons tend to be fairly loud and zot has a lot of those with dragons/dracs, and then the dracs with lightning bolt spell or hellfire don't help, or oofs with fireball... 15:42:27 what if the ambient noise in zot got cranked up 15:42:31 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:42:44 you mean, to reflect reality 15:42:47 maybe; I don't think anyone really understands ambient noise very well :P 15:42:58 it might be worth a try 15:43:07 -!- Boyo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:45:21 -!- Luterac has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:45:40 -!- home has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:46:50 remember super high ambient hive? 15:47:19 was it bad 15:47:34 well, it was hive so yes 15:47:41 ...fair. 15:47:48 the concept is simple to understand, but there's no in-game indication of it 15:47:57 you could shout right next to bees and not wake them up 15:48:04 was pretty impressive 15:48:19 I don't think ambient noise leads to good gameplay either way 15:48:26 MarvinPA: don't try this at home 15:48:29 either you have super stealth, or everything comes to you in one place 15:48:29 heh 15:48:41 well, you'd probably only tweak the ambient noise up a little bit 15:49:01 -!- dcssrubot54 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:05 maybe that would work; I'm not sure it's really been tested aside from hive, which had excessively high ambient noise 15:49:32 orc lair and shoals have 4ish ambient noise 15:49:37 some branches might still have higher than normal, I think there were some 15:49:52 they're the only ones that aren't 0 or negative 15:50:25 elliptic: having said all this, i've been speccing quite a lot of zot games and in general i've seen battles ranging all over the place even in the more open layouts; but i'll keep a closer eye out for this type of thing (and tweak the layouts more anyway, the super open ones seem generally not very interesting) 15:50:26 well, maybe zot would work better with something like that 15:51:14 well, raising zot noise seems like it would compensate the noisy monsters and allow more open layouts 15:51:22 as elliptic said, worth a try 15:51:33 there should be an in-game message indicating the ambient noise when you arrive at a branch 15:51:59 agreed there too 15:52:01 "the walls of this place throb continously with a deep, sinister hum" 15:52:02 mumra: I disagree; it isn't the sort of thing that players need to know 15:52:11 or maybe just stick it in the branch description 15:52:13 at least not for small tweaks like this 15:52:22 so it's not technically spoilery but also doesn't get brought up constantly 15:52:27 nobody is being hurt by not being told about ambient noise in orc/lair 15:52:39 I think a message on branch entry would be nice, for flavour at least 15:52:44 what about in crypt or tomb though, where the ambient noise is -10/-20 15:52:50 even if it doesn't matter 15:52:54 which means everybody hears it when you scratch your nose 15:53:31 in crypt/tomb a message would be good, yes, since the ambient silence there actually is something that affects player decisions 15:53:38 though I will only accept transifex written lines. 15:54:07 get mikee_ to write all new linse 15:54:13 ??ambient noise 15:54:14 I don't have a page labeled ambient_noise in my learndb. 15:54:25 i'll write lines, i like writing lines 15:54:36 is the noise of crypt/tomb excessively low btw? 15:54:43 i agree with st_, we don't need to labour about the exact effect the mechanic has, but it's nice flavour and it gives a small hint it's there so the player can work it out eventually if they're paying attention 15:54:50 galehar: I think it is fine at the moment, it's been tweaked a decent amount over the years 15:54:57 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:55:03 oh, good 15:55:04 crypt is okay now, tomb has a lot more stair dancing due to it 15:55:35 remember when you could do tomb:2 without needing to stair dance or teleport? wasn't that fun 15:56:05 I don't really remember, no 15:56:10 but that's my bad memory I think 15:56:35 probably tomb doesn't need to be any more silent than crypt though 15:56:36 last time I did tomb, my Ds had the hellfire mutation. I couldn't resist using it when I saw packs of greater mummies on T:3. Things got insane... 15:57:39 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:47 anyway +1 to tweaking the zot noise level; i've had some really positive feedback on how the layouts look so it'd be great to get things playing as good as possible in them. although the ones i've had the most favourable comments on visually have tended to be some of the less open ones anyway. 15:57:57 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:58:28 elliptic: playing too many glory days heavy armour chars, that's why! 15:58:54 !lm . br.end=tomb s=cv o=-cv 15:58:55 58 milestones for elliptic (br.end=tomb): 7x 0.5, 2x 0.6-a, 6x 0.6, 5x 0.7-a, 2x 0.7, 13x 0.8-a, 2x 0.8, 0.9, 8x 0.10-a, 2x 0.10, 6x 0.11-a, 0.11, 3x 0.12-a 15:59:19 some guy is firestorm Tomb:3 on czo :) 15:59:33 !locate * tomb:3 15:59:34 * tomb:3 was last seen on cszo (Tolias, L27 TeCj of Vehumet). 16:00:40 I guess it's not so dangerous in Lichform 16:02:59 so, it seems like we might want to print "Failed to move towards target." to a channel in autofight.lua ? 16:14:00 -!- Xelf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:33 -!- G-Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:06 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:16:13 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:12 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 16:20:42 03mumra 07* 0.13-a0-368-g85ceb4f: A new layout in D/Tar 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 56+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=85ceb4fef687 16:21:46 -!- Amnekian has quit [] 16:22:26 Tar? 16:22:40 tartarus 16:23:53 SamB: back to earlier - the only place julia or mandel fractals can possibly work is zot i think 16:23:54 I've not been to tartarus. 16:24:10 i had a mind to do some IFS layouts which could work elsewhere 16:24:52 Havvy: nor have a lot of people 16:25:13 tartarus is kind of boring layoutwise, and possibly in other ways also 16:25:28 nicolae-: except it now has brand new layouts ;) 16:25:29 is/was?????? :-D 16:25:40 yes, that is what i meant 16:25:51 i like the new gehenna and cocytus layouts 16:26:19 thanks (half are mine, half infiniplex's) 16:26:48 i really need to get some more dis layouts in as well, there's one new one but the branch is generally feeling a bit unloved still 16:27:11 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:27:14 what's the new dis one, is it the one where it's all just rectangles smushed together 16:27:22 did potions of experience get a nerf recently? 16:27:24 no, that's rwbarton's 16:27:30 !tell DracoOmega Are sealed doors supposed to be disintegratable? Because they aren't right now. 16:27:30 Grunt: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 16:27:38 mine smushes a load of rectangles together in a slightly different way :P 16:27:39 rast: no 16:27:51 !tell DracoOmega (note that sealed doors can be LRD'd, but not disintegrated) 16:27:52 Grunt: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 16:28:03 why does quaffing the startong one in zigpsirint only give a relatively small amount of xp? 16:28:18 enough to raise evocations from 3.0 to 8.7 with a naga (apt +1) 16:28:26 it used to give ridiculous amounts 16:28:42 rast: because zigsprint needed fixing? 16:28:50 that sounds like a normal non-sprint amount of xp 16:29:13 so what was the fix? 16:30:04 what about concentric circles that are broken up into rooms 16:30:28 hmmmm 16:31:05 That sounds like less xp than I see in 0.11 in non-sprint too. ;) 16:31:42 Havvy: well when do you ever get a potion of experience at XL 1 in non-sprint 16:31:55 Fair enough. 16:31:56 -!- absolute1o is now known as partyhat 16:31:56 rast: just tested a trunk normal game in wizmode with a potion of exp; exactly the same, 3.0 -> 8.7 16:32:11 hmmm ok but it seems like it was more before 16:32:13 sorry 16:32:30 do experience cards give a different amount? 16:32:33 I'll try compiling 0.11 and see what it gives then 16:32:38 they seem to give more 16:32:40 sec 16:32:42 mumra: experience cards give an amount depending on card power 16:32:47 i had 3 xp cards on a huar and i got to 20 evo skill 16:32:59 elliptic: I have 0.11 on my computer. One sec. 16:33:07 What class? 16:33:19 D:1 nemelex alter with a deck of changes is slightly ludicrous :) 16:33:32 mumra: like being a jester 16:33:33 elliptic: Which class are you using? 16:33:37 my first xp card took me to 19.9 evocations 16:33:43 under nemelex, ofc 16:33:44 nicolae-: "concentric circles broken up into rooms" ... have a loot at my new zot and crypt layouts :) 16:33:51 Havvy: he probably was an artificer if he started with 3.0 evo 16:33:58 elliptic: yes like being a jester, but without jesters existing :P 16:34:05 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:34:12 %whereis hyperbolic 16:34:13 hyperbolic the Imperceptible (L5 SpJr), a worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, saved on D:1 on 2013-04-07 after 118 turns. 16:34:14 jesters will always exist, in our hearts 16:34:17 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:27 and in our saved games! 16:34:38 is there an easy way to specify a given layout 16:35:17 nicolae-: &Playout_name 16:35:25 ah, right 16:35:30 what are your new layouts called 16:35:35 3.0 -> 8.9 16:35:35 nicolae-: &Playout_name 16:35:49 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:35:53 In 0.11 16:35:53 nicolae-: layout_onion is the zot one with concentric cricles 16:36:04 and layout_catacomb is basically the same thing but inverted so the walls become rooms 16:36:21 Havvy: in sprint too? 16:36:36 actually I guess it finished compiling for me so I can check too :) 16:36:40 Havvy: is that a NaAr ? 16:37:02 Yes and Yes 16:37:08 -!- ldf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:33 whoa catacombs is cool 16:37:44 yeah, 3.0 -> 8.9 16:38:08 nicolae-: thanks :) 16:38:19 it sometimes generates a little small 16:38:25 but i don't think anyone will complain about that in crypt 16:39:23 -!- Raycaster has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:39:33 nicolae-: but you have a good point, i can do another variation of those two for Dis (i have an idea to make it slightly different there) 16:40:46 -!- Xelf is now known as G-Flex 16:41:30 i was thinking something like this http://i.imgur.com/b0ldAna.jpg 16:41:38 like the current dis but circular 16:42:41 btw, does anyone else get the warning 16:42:47 levcomp.ypp: In function ‘void yyerror(const char*)’: 16:42:47 levcomp.ypp:21: warning: no previous declaration for ‘void yyerror(const char*)’ 16:42:55 when compiling trunk? 16:43:28 nicolae-: well that's exactly what layout_onion does sometimes 16:43:36 if the black lines are supposed to be corridors? 16:43:37 -Wall was added to the build recently, I think 16:43:45 and a bunch of warnings like that foillowed 16:43:48 no the black lines are walls 16:44:09 nicolae-: ok then it's exactly what layout_catacombs does, except a lot of the compartments get filling in afterwards 16:44:12 ah 16:44:57 but i can leave more compartments intact in dis, plus i have an additional idea ;) 16:45:00 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:45:24 nicolae-: also have you seen the grunt_runaround encompass vault ? it's very similar to that layout 16:45:48 -!- Infinite_Monkeys has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:13 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:46:30 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:44 oh, grunt_runaround is very close to what i was thinking about 16:46:59 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 16:47:01 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:49 nicolae-: if you do have any other layout ideas, sketches like that are really good for inspiration - i have a ton of algorithmic code now that's really easy to manipulate into lots of different structures; so any new ideas are welcome 16:51:49 if i wanted to design a layout what are some good places to start 16:52:34 well, it depends what kind of thing the layout looked like ... you can have a look through layout.des and layout_loops.des at some of the standard ones 16:52:52 or if you want to see how i'm making the noise-based layouts like gehenna, look at layout_caves.des 16:52:58 alright, cool 16:53:36 also layout_halls.des is quite interesting, it has some good examples of how i'm combining various procedural generators and transforms to get different results 16:54:53 but you'd need to be pretty familiar with lua to have any idea what's going on there (although a lot of them actually have ridiculously simple code because all the work is done in the procedural functions) 16:55:18 yeah, looks that way, but it doesn't look too bad 16:56:12 a lot of the time it's combining various primitive functions and transforms and then for each x,y coord just going 'if the value is less than 0.1, paint floor' 16:56:27 lua itself is very easy to learn though so if its any complicated, just spend a weekend or two learning it 16:56:27 evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:56:32 -!- defeeca has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:56:44 so as long as you know what kind of values the primitive functions are returning, it's really powerful 16:56:46 the hard part isnt hte language itself, its using it with crawl 16:58:27 yeah, lua is pretty straightforward for the most part. i find the syntax a little verbose for my taste. but it's quite similar to javascript in its flexibility with everything basically being a hashtable, and also in its approach to class prototyping which i've only recently discovered 16:59:13 actually it has a bit more flexibility than javascript in that regard, you can do operator and indexer overloading for a start 16:59:52 its way too verboise, yeah 17:00:05 what are some good things to keep in mind when designing layouts 17:00:59 design tips: look at the monsters in the branch and try to make layouts that work with those. in general you cant go wrong with the standard formula of corridors, open rooms, and (if the monsters support it) some doors 17:01:16 lots of stuff you can do with that formula, of course. but it works well, as long as you strike the right balance 17:01:20 -!- ark__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:01:36 noted 17:01:40 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:02:22 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:02:56 also, there's nothing wrong with really simple layouts sometimes (e.g. layout_forbidden_donut) but right now there's quite a lot of big, open stuff; more corridor-based things would be good at this point 17:03:07 yeah i have a few ideas already 17:03:09 if you want to lean towards more open layouts, its fine too btw. but even then its good to try to make it so chokepoints are possible 17:03:15 or "safer" areas of terrain 17:03:30 -!- partyhat has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:03:39 i've had a hard time finding ways to put doors into a lot of the new procedural ones because a lot of the time the corridors are all at angles and doors look weird even if i could find a way to put them in 17:04:17 zot shouldn't have doors, so thats fine. crypt could probably use them though, thematically 17:04:22 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:04:40 evilmike: yeah, i'm trying to go with generally a bit of a mix between open and closed spaces in the same levels, it's most interesting when the player has some choice about terrain i think 17:05:01 exactly 17:05:09 but also thats just generally the type of gameplay crawl is designed for 17:05:54 but then it's good to have some branches where you get mostly one or the other too, it helps define the feel of the branch, and you can design the monsters around that kind of terrain 17:06:24 i'd avoid having stuff that skews too far towards corridors, its less interesting and too easy 17:06:42 yeah 17:08:04 none of the new ones are like that at all, to the point where i think it's getting a bit imbalanced the other way and i'm desperately trying to think of ways to actually generate narrow corridors that don't just look like the basic/rooms/misc/loops layouts :P 17:08:27 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Kicked by KickServ] 17:09:11 heh 17:09:29 nicolae-: are you thinking of actually trying to code some? give me a shout if you need any help with lua or the api, or using any of the procedural libs i've written. worley/simplex noise is very useful. 17:09:49 I like how in lair, you get corridors but they are messy and have plants in them. you get plenty of natural chokepoints, but they are a different sort than you usually see, and the plants can die and make them more dangerous 17:09:56 unfortunately the V layout system isn't really usable outside of V yet but i'll get there soon, it'll be hugely flexible 17:10:03 will do! i'm looking at the code now, trying to get a feel for it 17:13:33 -!- bh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:14:00 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:14:01 -!- bh_ is now known as bh 17:14:55 -!- Sealer has quit [] 17:16:04 You smite it! 17:16:05 Beogh accepts your kill. You can now gain orcish followers. 17:16:05 Reactivating autopickup. 17:16:05 You feel a bit more experienced. 17:16:05 Your orc looks more experienced. x2 17:16:05 You feel somewhat more hungry. 17:16:07 You can no longer gain orcish followers. 17:16:14 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 17:16:14 -!- nooodl has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:15 I'm pretty sure that was all one turn 17:19:06 -!- dcssrubot799 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:42 (Notice how I both get and lose the same ability?) 17:22:21 * SamB wonders if Temple should be exempt from the "only one exit" policy; some temples have four as it is, many of them look rather nice with the exits the way they are, etc. ... 17:25:46 perhaps, temple layouts are purely aesthetic so i dont really care 17:26:06 -!- s951 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:30 evilmike: aesthetic, modulo lucy followers killing altars :) 17:26:56 heh heh 17:28:21 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:28 ??cure poison 17:30:28 cure poison[1/1]: L2 poison. Cures a few levels of poison, about from deep red to yellow (and yellow to none). That's about it. 17:30:45 modulo xom polymorphing the plants to oklobs in corrupted temple 17:30:55 -!- Nakat0my has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:31:14 elliott: xom thinks this is hilarious 17:31:21 is that in hilarious_deaths? 17:31:31 i didn't die to it thankfully! 17:31:39 what a waste 17:31:50 it was on the turn i entered temple too 17:32:33 I've found two zig's and it's only D:10. Extended game time? ;) 17:33:18 bh: that's one of the new layouts you've got there btw. it's either perlin or worley or both 17:33:38 mumra: do you have some connectivity guarantee? 17:33:40 temples having multiple exits is actually pretty relevant when waiting out wrath there 17:33:56 bh: it looks like some vault has placed disconnected, there was a blockish region in the middle 17:34:14 bh: but my generators are all guaranteed connected initially, they fill in any but the biggest continguous zone 17:34:18 IMO they shouldn't have multiple exits, since it is a non-obvious exploit... I haven't looked at how hard it would be to change them though 17:34:29 elliptic: I'll fix waiting out wrath. 17:34:33 I guess waiting out wrath there won't be a thing much longer, yes :) 17:34:36 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:48 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 17:35:14 it's still a bit weird though, and potentially relevant if you ever get any monsters in there 17:35:36 i suspect almost all temple layouts could be cut down to one exit without losing any aesthetics 17:35:56 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:36:35 ??cheese 17:36:36 cheese[1/2]: 1200 nutrition, regardless of herbivore, carnivore, or whatever! Careful if you have the lactose intolerant mutation. 17:36:58 While the rat/cheese vault is cute, it gave me 18 cheeses. 17:37:02 ??meat ration 17:37:03 food[1/4]: Goes in mouth/beak. Without carnivore or herbivore: Royal jelly weighs 5.5, is 5000 nutrition. Meat weighs 8, is 5000 nutrition. Bread weighs 8, is 4400 nutrition. Honeycomb weighs 4, is 2000 nutrition. A chunk weighs 10, is 1000 nutrition. Takes 4 turns to eat rations, 3 for chunks, 1 for ambrosia, and 2 turns for all other food. 17:37:37 18 cheeses sounds ... cheesy 17:38:38 bh: the orc knight's name is brilliant by the way, given the underlying metaphor of beogh and all 17:38:56 mumra: what is the metaphor of beogh? 17:39:05 you mean "you're the orc messiah"? 17:39:08 you're the orc messiah, i.e. christ 17:39:14 and that orc is called "Okrist" 17:39:33 reminds me of the sword 17:39:34 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:40:05 just what you needed, a goblin-cleaver 17:41:00 mumra: certainly the ones that just have 3 exits in a row don't really need them 17:41:11 mumra, SamB: I don't have any scripts to handle includes, I do only functions that are not imported from other files (and thus should be static or removed). And that's too riddled with false positives, mostly because of many #ifdefs, for automated use. 17:41:11 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:41:27 mumra: one of my temple layouts makes use of thee staircases 17:42:07 mumra, SamB: http://sprunge.us/WYfA 17:42:28 mumra: another cool name is Bogdan, it is a Slawic term for "gift of god" :) 17:43:09 dpeg: it's a popular Polish given name; the etymology is archaic and thus not known to most 17:43:17 dpeg: doesn't it say something like that in the .txt where the names are? 17:43:29 kilobyte: yes, of course. But we had players comment on it! 17:43:33 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43:38 SamB: yes, jpeg made a comment, IIRC. 17:45:10 -!- rossi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:45:33 she spells it "slavic", though 17:45:51 transcription is not uniform 17:46:04 in the GDR we used a different system than what is common now 17:46:08 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:16 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:53 I hate electric eels 17:46:58 !lg * temple s=ckiller 17:46:59 1981 games for * (temple): 380x quitting, 101x an orc wizard, 98x an ogre, 96x an orc warrior, 92x pois, 70x an orc, 57x a gnoll, 46x wild magic, 42x a hound, 42x Pikel, 42x a worker ant, 30x an iguana, 30x a slave, 29x a player ghost, 26x starvation, 24x an orc priest, 24x Prince Ribbit, 24x a killer bee, 22x an ice beast, 22x a scorpion, 20x Menkaure, 20x a kobold, 19x lava, 18x a giant ant, 18x... 17:47:08 29x a player ghost 17:47:18 Grunt: how about by XL? 17:47:24 !lg * temple s=xl 17:47:24 1981 games for * (temple): 394x 7, 386x 5, 355x 6, 256x 8, 227x 4, 107x 9, 92x 3, 47x 2, 28x 1, 27x 10, 13x 11, 10x 13, 6x 12, 4x 22, 4x 14, 4x 27, 4x 17, 3x 16, 3x 24, 2x 15, 2x 19, 2x 25, 2x 20, 2x 18, 21 17:47:28 kilobyte: is that for #includes that are defined twice? 17:48:05 !lg * temple s=xl o=. 17:48:05 1981 games for * (temple): 4x 27, 2x 25, 3x 24, 4x 22, 21, 2x 20, 2x 19, 2x 18, 4x 17, 3x 16, 2x 15, 4x 14, 10x 13, 6x 12, 13x 11, 27x 10, 107x 9, 256x 8, 394x 7, 355x 6, 386x 5, 227x 4, 92x 3, 47x 2, 28x 1 17:48:23 Sequell: now make a bar graph 17:48:43 !lg * temple s=xl 17:48:43 1981 games for * (temple): 394x 7, 386x 5, 355x 6, 256x 8, 227x 4, 107x 9, 92x 3, 47x 2, 28x 1, 27x 10, 13x 11, 10x 13, 6x 12, 4x 22, 4x 14, 4x 27, 4x 17, 3x 16, 3x 24, 2x 15, 2x 19, 2x 25, 2x 20, 2x 18, 21 17:48:53 !lg * temple xl=21 17:48:54 1. TempMfCr the Phalangite (L21 MfCr), worshipper of Jiyva, quit the game in the Temple (water_temple) on 2010-12-16 15:12:34, with 249715 points after 59119 turns and 8:43:01. 17:49:12 !lg * temple xl=21 -tv 17:49:12 1. TempMfCr, XL21 MfCr, T:59119 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 17:49:21 dpeg: re that temple vault -- given that branches might generally be reduced to having 1 exit stair, could that vault be adapted without losing aesthetics or does it absolute need 3? 17:49:29 !lg * temple s=xl o=. !quit 17:49:30 1601 games for * (temple !quit): 3x 27, 2x 25, 2x 24, 3x 22, 20, 19, 18, 3x 17, 3x 16, 2x 15, 3x 14, 7x 13, 2x 12, 9x 11, 20x 10, 76x 9, 207x 8, 309x 7, 299x 6, 335x 5, 191x 4, 70x 3, 27x 2, 25x 1 17:49:43 !lg * temple xl=25 -tv -nuke 17:49:44 Unknown option: nuke 17:49:52 ??footv 17:49:53 footv[1/5]: telnet termcast.develz.org (and then select the letter for FooTV), or http://termcast.develz.org. Do not use SSH. Shows games requested using !tv. Request games by adding -tv to !lg, !lm or !hs, cancel games by adding -tv:cancel to the same command-line, clear playlist with !lg * -tv:nuke 17:50:00 !lg * temple xl=25 -tv:nuke 17:50:01 FooTV playlist clear requested by bh. 17:50:22 !lg * temple xl=25 17:50:22 2. poop the Phalangite (L25 DsBe), worshipper of Xom, slain by a rock troll in the Temple on 2009-05-15 01:11:18, with 481851 points after 88181 turns and 4:44:23. 17:50:34 !lg * temple xl=25 -tv 17:50:35 2. poop, XL25 DsBe, T:88181 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 17:50:38 mumra: yes, I can certainly do that. I'll probably notice when it happens, otherwise drop me a line. 17:52:35 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:54:03 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:54:05 it is easier to leave temples with multiple exits rather than modify all of them of course 17:54:44 mumra: it looks like we might not need to special-case temple for that, unless upward escape hatches are nuked too ... 17:55:08 (which they don't seem to be at the moment) 17:55:12 branch:1 levels can't have upward escape hatches 17:55:21 mumra: no, not includes -- it doesn't look at them at all; just actual objects in .o files, and imports of them 17:55:30 it looks like they get converted to exits 17:55:34 ah ok 17:55:41 ca'ching! acquirement -> executioner's axe 17:56:05 my approach to one exit was not about deleting stairs, but not adding them in the first place 17:56:22 so if a vault added multiples, they did stay 17:56:23 kilobyte: i think SamB was talking about "this file stopped using such-and-such function so this #include isn't needed anymore" 17:56:45 mumra: essentially, yes 17:56:50 mumra: yeah, these are different hardly related problems 17:57:12 kilobyte: did you look at Grunt's yet? 17:57:18 Hm? 17:57:27 kilobyte: did you fix that interlevel connectivity veto? 17:57:31 Grunt: you made "1 exit" patch right? 17:57:38 Somewhere, yes. 17:57:44 mumra: but again, most of the trouble comes from #ifdef TILES/WEBTILES/WINDOWS/etc 17:57:55 Grunt's was essentially the same implementation as mine, removing exits 17:58:01 so how many of those do we have? 5 already? 17:58:12 I thought it was just 3 17:58:25 "how many crawl devs does it take to remove a staircase" 17:58:26 mumra: is the multiple stairs purge for balance reasons, for sanity, or for another concern? 17:58:40 -!- magistern has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:58:43 dpeg: sanity seems to be the last thing it's causing ;) 17:58:44 sanity, realism 17:58:45 mumra: "Case 1" 17:58:54 haha 17:59:11 dpeg: it confuses players about which one you come in by 17:59:13 -!- Boyo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:59:28 and such like 17:59:36 well, it didn't confuse me, but if the player base degenerates, we surely have to adapt :) 17:59:37 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:00:00 * dpeg just wrote a needlessly long ramble about the Incursion demise on reddit. Why, oh why? 18:00:01 I mean, it's not obvious from looking at X anyway 18:00:18 it's never confused me, but it has always seemed just slightly unneccesary 18:00:25 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:00:32 well, okay, confused is a little strong 18:00:49 of course the change does have a slight gameplay implication, you can't lead monsters to another stair and escape then come back in and be relatively safe 18:01:02 yes, serves no purpose -- it's a kind of oddity that might be seen as "weird, I like it!" or as "what were they thinking?!". 18:01:09 ??incursion 18:01:10 incursion[1/3]: Interesting roguelike that has D&D-style character feats. http://www.incursion-roguelike.net/ 18:01:14 mumra: sure, was aware of that 18:01:32 mumra: hmm, I hadn't thought of that 18:02:14 ??invisibility 18:02:14 invisibility[1/5]: If you are invisible, monsters won't shoot ranged attacks at you unless they can see you, or can guess where you are. Monsters with {sense invisible} still have to guess your location, but will only fire if they guess right; others get a random fuzz to their aiming point, which might be inaccurate in the first place. 18:02:21 I thought we removed invisbility as a spell 18:02:24 is it now possible to butcher while weilding a non-butchering weapon? 18:02:53 ??butcher 18:02:54 butcher[1/3]: Anyone can butcher if they are able to unwield their weapon, as all characters are assumed to have a bootknife. Wielding a cursed, non-butchering weapon prevents you from butchering at all, unless you have sharp teeth or a beak and talons. 18:02:54 no and yes 18:02:55 who said anything about a spell? 18:03:03 bh: nope 18:03:21 idk, my naga is butchering things with e - the cursed +11,+8 lance "Wyrmbane" (weapon) {slay drac, +Rage rPois rF+ AC+5} 18:03:32 rast: Henzell is out of date here 18:03:43 ahok 18:03:45 rast: I think you are butchering with your knife 18:03:51 right 18:03:52 look carefully 18:03:57 that was intentional 18:04:02 so basically cursed weapons no longer block butchering 18:04:09 yeah 18:04:26 well 18:04:37 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:04:40 the plus side of that is it makes me more likely to try possibly cursed weapons 18:04:56 the minus side is it makes weapon curses from mummies etc even more irrelevant 18:05:35 rast: yes. I am afraid that when "do we really need curses?" comes up again (only a matter of time), I'll have to dig up what evilmike and I discussed last year. 18:05:40 elliptic: why did we do this again? 18:07:05 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:07:20 SamB: because people were worrying about whether octopodes had enough tentacles to butcher even with a cursed weapon 18:07:24 early ossuaries get lesss interesting IMO 18:07:28 oh, yeah 18:08:00 and then there is the question of why you can do lots of tricky things while wielding a cursed whip in one hand but can't butcher 18:08:02 and also offhands 18:08:24 this is the problem when people bring realism into things... 18:08:31 also the fact that animate skeleton was basically a cooking spell was really weird 18:08:58 rast: I'm not an ossuary fan. For the most part I find it to be an exercise is spamming 5 18:09:00 mumra: well, if I actually thought that inability to butcher in such situations was good gameplay I wouldn't have been so eager to see it gone 18:09:03 oh, we still have at least one vault advertising it as such 18:09:08 yeah i know 18:09:12 I thought that vault was changed? 18:09:16 or is there another one 18:09:17 oh was it? 18:09:19 It wasn't changed; it was removed. 18:09:22 bh: isnt that true for all early portal vaults? 18:09:23 oh, okay 18:09:24 fine 18:09:26 I missed it 18:09:27 removal is a change! 18:09:35 * dpeg is still convinced that curses could be so much more interesting... 18:09:35 yes, it is 18:09:45 rast: oussary is more apt to poison you 18:09:48 * Grunt points at dpeg, then curses. 18:09:55 dpeg: yes 18:10:01 we have cursed teleportation! 18:10:04 rast: the food clock is basically the least interesting part of the game, so this can't have made ossuaries *that* much less interesting 18:10:07 bh so is sewer 18:10:12 * dpeg curses the point, then grunts. 18:10:14 fr remove food clock 18:10:25 sewer is an excercise in looting 18:10:42 SamB: you think they're too easy? Or too annoying? 18:10:49 I don't mind 18:10:54 the only dangerous early portal is Bailey 18:10:56 loot is nice 18:10:56 dpeg: actually this makes it easier to make curses more interesting, if their effect on the food clock is no longer a consideration in changing them 18:11:09 mumra: good point 18:11:16 some sewers are actually hard, mind 18:11:22 I was overgeneralizing 18:11:42 SamB: the hard bit is too keep balancing vaults, both ways. I've never been good at this. 18:11:55 It is a bit of a balancing act, yes. 18:11:57 I did die in Sewers, though. Greed is a great equaliser! 18:12:03 ??bad excuse 18:12:04 bad excuse[1/22]: but i wanted the loot 18:12:07 :) 18:12:20 mumra: what sort of changes? 18:12:42 SamB: making them do more things than just stick equipment to you, basically 18:12:47 but i can't remember the full discussion 18:13:01 SamB: it's on the wiki, evilmike carefully wrote it down. 18:13:02 dpeg can probably provide more details! 18:13:13 as if by magic :) 18:13:27 Basically, you want curses to do more than "cannot unequip", and there are a number of ways of achieving this. 18:13:40 One idea is that cursing monsters could actually be interesting that way. 18:13:48 sounds interesting 18:14:04 hopefully ash will survive this 18:14:21 ash could get an ability to bind items 18:14:21 I am discussing this precisely because I want to keep Ash's curse mechanic :) 18:14:31 ash can automatically convert curses to boundedness curses or something like this 18:14:37 preferably when curses become one with their inner midge 18:14:50 The matter is not trivial because you don't want players to go "oh, a curse ===> use ?RC". 18:15:05 hehe, kilobyte is and always was a strict opponent of curses 18:15:11 RC should cost piety 18:15:14 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:31 SamB: I meant ?RC in a system where curses do more than stickiness 18:15:43 oh 18:15:47 dpeg: where do you think the bar is for introducing new races? 18:15:49 RC as an ash ability that costs piety would work 18:15:53 If the new effect is evil, then players are forced to carry ?RC and use it at once. So you don't want that. 18:15:57 ?RC can be rarer in such a system because it's no longer so gamebreaking to get cursed with the wrong thing 18:16:04 bh: we don't call it a bar, we call it a tavern 18:16:04 bh: the drinking bar, or the quality bar? 18:16:08 bh: I think it's right next to that cliff over there --> 18:16:19 dpeg: the latter. 18:16:23 the bar is that they have to be lava orcs 18:16:36 MarvinPA: then why don't we have lava orcs 18:16:46 bh: well, when we were young and added species like Vampire and Deep Dwarf without knowing what we did, it was pretty low : 18:16:48 and how did we get octopodes? 18:16:49 :) 18:16:50 MarvinPA: you have a commit bit, feel free to merge them :) 18:17:04 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:17:11 bh: is it that simple? 18:17:20 I can like LO much, much better if they're called Salamander. 18:17:24 preferably with a seed job with "lava orc" on the left side of the expression 18:17:29 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 18:17:30 dpeg: but Beogh! 18:17:32 s/seed/sed/, dammit! 18:17:34 SamB: it probably won't apply cleanly 18:17:50 SamB: I am not sure how well LO jibes with Beogh. Does it? 18:18:03 dpeg: not at all, there's a heap of problems 18:18:12 kilobyte: that's what I'd guess 18:18:12 both theme and gameplay 18:18:14 yes 18:18:19 i still like the idea of lava orcs but not as orcs, themewise 18:18:24 Eronarn has said he won't be able to work on them any time soon; he didn't quite go so far as making a post like the Incursion guy but i get the feeling there's about a similar chance of him getting them finished 18:18:27 nicolae-: +1000 18:18:45 bh: what I always did was to find someone to bounce emails. That gets you some core ideas before you take it to a public place (which you will do at some point). 18:18:47 the species is a great idea, them being orcs is not 18:18:53 bh: of course, I am open for this =) 18:18:58 bh: imo the bar is you want to put in the effort into implementing it and it seems like it would be fun 18:19:02 dont worry about it more than that 18:19:11 if it sucks, whatever, it just doesn't get added to stable 18:19:13 sludge elf -> lava elf? 18:19:16 nicolae-: Salamander fits really well, if you look up the mythos 18:19:20 lava dwarf 18:19:28 yeah i know the mythological salamanders 18:19:36 lava dwarf sounds cool 18:19:37 oh right, yes, last time lava orcs came up here it degenerated to an argument about whether they should actually be orcs 18:19:43 nicolae-: volcano dwarf 18:19:43 dpeg, evilmike: how about imps? small, slower than spriggans, can blink 18:19:57 new species: Lava Lamp. "It glows in the dark!" 18:20:04 yes it's sort of tiresome and pointless 18:20:06 bh: do you know the Fiend race proposal? 18:20:10 dpeg: there *is* no dark 18:20:16 kilobyte: no, but I know where to find it 18:20:18 this is *Crawl*, remember? 18:20:18 mimic species 18:20:21 just add them as lava orcs and save the petty debates for later 18:20:21 SamB: yes, because of the lava lamp! 18:20:26 -!- ldf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:20:37 evilmike: you have to make a decision w.r.t. Beogh 18:20:39 if "they shouldn't be orcs!!" is blocking them from being added, something very very very wrong is going on here 18:21:23 bh: I'd speculated about a species that uses scBlink to move. 18:21:29 bh: not on the wiki, I don't think there's a writeup anywhere :( 18:21:34 dpeg: that sounds a little tedious 18:21:36 how about "Begone, foul abomination" if you try to take Beogh 18:22:02 nicolae-: maybe 18:22:12 evilmike: I made some code comments. They need a little bit of cleanup and there's probably going to be work to get them to merge 18:22:36 well, thats a legit reason for not adding them yet 18:22:51 SamB: git show 9bcf650ea3803e9bdd0580c5d205231a8d5f955c 18:22:58 small flavour details are irrelevant to me 18:23:10 okay, so my commit to keep your dudes from running away when you recall them 18:23:14 what shall I call it? 18:23:24 evilmike: it's not really a small flavour detail; whether they can have beogh or not is a huge implementation thing 18:23:38 you cant just give orc allies rF? 18:23:54 evilmike: OP much? 18:24:12 i thought eronarn already implemented a thing where beogh would protect your orcs from your heat aura 18:24:21 that makes more sense 18:24:25 like, as one of the last things he did on the branch before vanishing into the aether 18:24:37 it would need to be immunity, and then there'd be a question: if Beogh can protects orcs from fire, why wouldn't he do so elsewhere? 18:24:58 because beogh, like all gods, is capricious and unknowable 18:25:07 because the messiah isn't elsewhere? 18:25:07 frankly, just asking the question makes you sound like a heretic 18:25:17 you're not a heretic... are you, kilobyte? 18:25:40 * dpeg disassembles the pyre. 18:25:58 any other god does this consistently: TSO's worshippers get rN, Zin's are anti-mutation, etc 18:26:42 SamB: then why don't they get immunity to fire for other messiahs? 18:27:06 Whether the new species works and is fun should be completely independent of Beogh. That's why I think it is best to call it anything without "Orc" in there. (If they are a kind of orcs, players will ask about Beogh all the time.) 18:27:22 kilobyte: other messiahs are less cool 18:27:38 SamB: more cool in this case :p 18:27:49 not as hot, though 18:27:53 if you want to be LITERAL 18:27:55 sure 18:28:02 so earlier today there was a discussion of what miracles to buff Beogh with. combine these? 18:28:17 or we could just make beogh always do this ;-P 18:28:25 geekosaur: water walking not enough? Pernicious players :) 18:28:33 dpeg: too dangerous, it seems 18:28:50 another thing is that their orciness comes only from the desire to have character abbreviations like LOSt or LORe 18:29:08 dpeg: apart from the mutating races that I wrote c-r-d about, my other ideas are a fungus race and imps. A long time ago I'd wanted to do gnolls, but they'd be boring 18:29:09 no it doesn't 18:29:11 We have no historical account of all the messiahs who accidentally drunk while performing their water walking stunts! 18:29:13 kilobyte: remove stalker, duh ;) 18:29:20 What's a stalker? 18:29:23 bh: and reaver? :p 18:29:29 SamB: eronarn had said as much 18:29:32 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:47 bh: eronarn was obviously deranged 18:29:50 kilobyte: which would be good reasons of course, but no longer valid ;P 18:29:52 lava orcs were invented to create a race with the LO abbreviation :) that's really all there is to it 18:30:08 losr :p 18:30:29 bikeshedding :-\ What we need (if we need it) is someone to clean up the patch and apply it 18:30:38 in terms of actual issues that are worth talking about, the lava orc hud doesn't display properly, for example 18:31:15 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:31:18 -!- s951 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:31:20 which is weird since i remember that being fixed, i guess it broke again somehow 18:31:22 Did anyone play them for a bit? Is the tension mechanic good enough: effective, and fun? 18:31:32 elliptic: loam lobe lock lone 18:31:41 There was a lava orc branch running on some server for a while. 18:31:41 oh, and loth, don't forget thieves! 18:31:49 ??class list 18:31:50 class list[1/1]: 0.12 classes: AE AK AM Ar As Be Cj CK DK EE En FE Fi Gl He Hu IE Mo Ne Pr Sk Su Tm VM Wn Wr Wz 18:31:55 What's a Th? :b 18:31:58 i think some guy posted on the tavern about playing a lara orc somethingorother and said he liked it 18:32:14 grunt: it's a thransmuter 18:32:16 elliptic changing the name of VM will make a number of words, this will be compensation for no LO 18:32:20 !gamesby * LO !boring 18:32:20 * (LO !boring) has played 906 games, between 2011-04-07 04:23:11 and 2011-07-02 00:30:38, won 3 (0.3%), high score 1539492, total score 9269771, total turns 3349568, play-time/day 3:06:34, total time 11d+6:31:48. 18:32:23 people have wins with various lava orc combos but all of them are pretty old versions i think 18:32:28 nicolae-: THRANSMUTILATOR 18:32:51 !gamesby * Jr !boring 18:32:51 * (Jr !boring) has played 2115 games, between 2013-04-01 00:06:59 and 2013-04-14 11:03:11, won 25 (1.2%), high score 26891408, total score 150831108, total turns 8167125, play-time/day 2d+7:12:41, total time 32d+4:57:40. 18:32:53 MarvinPA: good to know that it's winnable but doesn't quite answer my question :) 18:33:03 just saying... Jesters were more popular than Lava Orcs ;) 18:33:04 so LO was played a bit on one of the servers two years ago... I don't know how much it has changed 18:33:13 the tension has changed since then right? 18:33:17 LOJr 18:33:17 you could do lots of pretty silly stuff with the old versions 18:33:23 bh: the playerbase is *slightly* larger I guess 18:33:33 -!- Leafsnail has quit [Quit: Now if you will excuse me, I have a giant ball of oil to throw out my window] 18:33:39 nicolae-: LOJban 18:33:48 ontoclasm: the only logical choice 18:33:49 ontoclasm: *wince* 18:34:40 can lava orcs do nemelex? 18:34:44 bh: what do you mean by "style of Ash wrath"? 18:34:50 SamB: why not? 18:34:54 Wouldn't the cards burn? 18:35:01 they're magic cards 18:35:02 They're *magical* cards. 18:35:02 dpeg: exp timeout 18:35:03 they are sleeved! 18:35:09 well, scrolls don't even burn normally 18:35:10 * Grunt gestures at nicolae-. nicolae- is devoured by a tear in reality. 18:35:12 bh: two XLs, isn't it? 18:35:21 yes 18:35:25 by which i mean you tap them, and they work, but you have to have the right lands in play first, 18:35:27 oh, okay, if scrolls don't burn either I guess that makes "sense" 18:35:29 fr ccg minigame 18:35:41 dpeg: I think it is really four XLs, because ash halves XP gain 18:36:36 alright, someone will hopefully correct me 18:36:52 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:36:59 nicolae-: this is why Nemelex has "common", "rare" and "legendary" decks! 18:37:10 03SamB 07* 0.13-a0-369-gd3c1763: Make Yred/Beogh's recall abilities prevent recalled dudes from running off 10(5 minutes ago, 3 files, 26+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d3c17637435c 18:37:50 fr: the Shahrazad card! (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=980) 18:39:13 * Grunt gestures at kilobyte. kilobyte's game is devoured by recursiveness. 18:40:00 nah, Enter the Dungeon 18:40:16 I don't have a winrate good enough to use such a card, though 18:40:54 do we start HOPr with too much invocations? 18:41:02 Zannick: you mean, a sprint? 18:41:05 * SamB thinks he finished this change hours ago, but it took him a while to get the "Recall" ability 18:41:11 -!- alefury has quit [] 18:41:17 bh: why do you ask? 18:41:45 kilobyte: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74312 18:41:56 so, yeah, i guess a sprint 18:42:56 Arena card, teleports you into the arena vs. a tough monster, if you win you get returned to the dungeon with some loot and if you die, welp, 18:42:59 or how about a card whose effect is "What the--? This card doesn't belong in this game!\nXom sgiggles." 18:43:12 SamB: I'm playing one and I've never had to train invoc 18:43:21 You've drawn the Rules of Poker. That's not supposed to be in there. 18:43:39 nicolae-: that's funny 18:43:50 You've drawn the Joker. Xom welcomes you! 18:43:51 fr: deck of dungeons randomly sends you to portal vaults. 18:43:53 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44:13 case CARD_RULES_FOR_BRIDGE: 18:44:13 mpr("You have drawn the rules for contract bridge."); 18:44:13 mpr("How intriguing!"); 18:44:13 break; 18:44:19 (4.1 source code) 18:44:22 haha 18:44:27 elliott: You are confused. 18:44:35 fr: series of deck draws that lets you combo off and win Crawl 18:44:49 Grunt: too bad we aren't the nethack devs :) 18:44:56 i read that as "contact bridge" and wondered how bridge became a contact sport 18:44:57 or... are you? 18:45:34 SwissStopwatch: pretty sure that already exists 18:45:44 Zannick: it's a contact sport when someone tries funny business with the cards. btw, did you feel the earthquake last night? 18:46:02 a card that when drawn has a 1/1000000 chance of giving you the orb 18:46:05 is that series "7 experience draws" 18:46:14 bh: nope. 18:46:31 SwissStopwatch: yes 18:46:35 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:46:38 because winning like that feels much more like a control deck than a combo deck 18:46:46 clearly this joke doesn't work very well for Crawl 18:47:03 well the combo part is that these aren't all in the same deck 18:47:19 !tell DracoOmega I really dig the new Recall. Nice work. 18:47:19 bh: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 18:47:23 you have to draw some to be gifted more 18:47:46 yes, you have to play your draw spells to get more cards while not dying until you can win 18:47:51 You draw a card... You now have a straight flush. The Orb of Zot appears in a cloud of translocational energy! 18:48:24 i think you need a royal flush for that 18:48:24 mumra: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:48:28 !messages 18:48:29 (1/1) HangedMan said (4m 2s ago): on earlier layout discussion: would maps of serial vault abuse to make sort-of-layouts focusing on specific shapes be good for demonstrating some layout ideas? much easier for me to produce examples than learning lua (:P), and last time I did this I eventually got the full idea for serial_sigils 18:49:11 -!- dcssrubot856 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:08 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:50:10 HangedMan: that would depend on whether you were successful in capturing the gist of the idea 18:50:11 i guess i should push the new lamia tile >.> 18:50:30 ontoclasm: do it ! 18:50:41 do it. i dare you to push the new lamia tile. 18:50:53 HangedMan: it would generally be easier and cause less channel spam if you just joined the channel 18:51:04 * Grunt pushes ontoclasm. 18:52:30 i wouldn't dare push lamia 18:52:40 Lamia pushes you!!! You die... 18:53:04 maybe if ontoclasm goes to soviet russia first? 18:53:29 in soviet russia, upstream pulls from you 18:55:31 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:55:37 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:01 did "Sharnga" get upgraded to a longbow at some point? 18:56:07 yes 18:56:09 how do i grep changelog? 18:56:24 and why? we already had a really good best bow ever 18:56:52 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:02 rast: I tend to use the search field in gitk 18:57:34 %git fd9fe111 18:57:34 03MarvinPA * 0.12-a0-124-gfd9fe11: Upgrade the bow of Krishna to a longbow 10(8 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd9fe111f1fd 18:58:05 it's still arguably worse than piercer fyi 18:58:22 ...because if you haste yourself? 18:58:28 HangedMan: are these layouts going to be coloured similarly to sigils 18:58:28 !learn delete gift 18:58:29 Deleted gift[1/1]: see {divine_gift[1]} 18:58:57 divine_gift does not / no longer exists 18:59:29 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:54 ??god gift 18:59:55 god gift[1/1]: An item gifted by a god. Not all gods gift items! 19:00:13 !learn add gift see {god_gift} 19:00:14 gift[1/1]: see {god_gift} 19:01:38 o sorry. this is crawl-dev. i really need to find a way to stop doing this 19:01:55 blackcustard: we'll never forgive you 19:02:04 NEVERRRRR! 19:02:37 why would anyone consider piercer to be even good? 19:02:51 kilobyte: ... 19:03:02 (I agree with elliptic.) 19:03:03 it has just +1 dam over a regular longbow of velocity, with none of downsides 19:03:30 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 19:03:30 regular longbows of velocity don't come enchanted to +9, you know... 19:04:12 ??velocity 19:04:13 velocity[1/1]: Vorpal ranged weapons are suffixed with 'velocity'. It gives 20% bonus damage and does not overwrite the ammunition brand. 19:04:28 if you don't have many scrolls at hand, at +6 or +7 the bow will still win: you get Sure Blade for free, plus +2 EV 19:04:39 this isn't actually true 19:04:59 ??Sure Blade 19:05:00 sure blade[1/3]: Level 2 Hexes/Charms spell that gives much higher to-hit but only works with short blades. Very useful, provided you're using short blades. 19:05:04 +dam is really important for ranged weapons and ranged weapons have ridiculous accuracy regardless at high skill 19:05:21 um ... wut? 19:07:18 (also sure blade is more than +4 or 5 accuracy) 19:07:40 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:07:56 certainly you are right that the best non-artefacts are competitive with the best unrands, though (which is good IMO) 19:08:24 things I hate: accidentally equipping amu faith 19:08:47 bh: identified? 19:08:48 just like an antimagic or vampiric exec axe beats almost (?) all unrand weapons 19:08:50 bh: autoinscribe them 19:08:57 kilobyte: unidentified on a randart 19:09:05 bh: did it ID now? 19:09:06 when I'm already at max piety 19:09:08 -!- Felyza has joined ##crawl-dev 19:09:09 SamB: yes 19:09:20 good, good 19:09:20 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 19:09:31 are there any unrand antimagic/vampiric exec axes 19:09:35 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:42 Exec axes? 19:09:42 No. 19:09:43 ok, Q time... is it known that the 11.2 source's visual studio chain is broken? 19:09:52 do we really want faith to act like this, or should it act more like vampiric weapons? 19:09:56 grunt: let us rectify this 19:09:58 there is wrath of trog 19:10:00 there is an antilife axe unrand 19:10:00 st_: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 19:10:01 ??wrath of trog 19:10:01 wrath of trog[1/1]: A +3,+11 antimagic battleaxe, makes you go berserk (50% of the time!) when you attack. Not to be confused with {trog wrath}, a far more terrifying phenomenon. Trog won't ever gift it (but Okawaru can). 19:10:07 nicolae-: we already have the Wrath of-- 19:10:08 ... 19:10:14 * Grunt gestures at elliptic. elliptic resists. 19:10:21 Felyza: visual studio hasn't worked for a few years already 19:10:32 aha 19:10:39 just implement the axe of woe in mainline 19:10:45 SamB: I don't think the behavior is intentional. The restrictions on faith are to prevent abuses, not to complicate the ID game 19:10:46 %100 balanced 19:10:57 ontoclasm: Wiglaf butchers you messily. You die... 19:11:12 recommended toolchain? 19:11:14 axe of woe? 19:11:18 Felyza: no one produced a non-intrusive fix, and not many care about MSVC anyway 19:11:21 ophanim: it's a +inf,+inf axe 19:11:24 ontoclasm: the Axe of Woe is your weapon in meatsprint. 19:11:31 wait, faith can spawn on randarts? 19:11:32 Automatic hit, guaranteed kill. 19:11:37 hmm, wait, isn't faith supposed to remember how much piety it gave you ? 19:11:38 ah 19:12:00 -!- CeleryMan has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:04 Felyza: on Windows? One bundled with msysgit. 19:12:27 * SamB uses MinGW 19:13:19 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 19:13:28 I for one always cross-compile then copy it over, but then, I'm not keen of letting Windows touch real hardware. 19:13:34 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 19:13:34 i use powershell for opening files and grepping; with a (VERY hacky) shortcut to open mingw's bash console for building 19:13:36 if you have no intention of correcting visual studio, might I suggest removing the .sln files and adding a readme.visualc that says it is unsupported? (leaving project files intact should anyone care to try later) 19:13:47 ctrl-moving toward a wall takes 1.0 turns instead of normal attack time 19:13:49 is this intentional? 19:14:12 o and git in powershell too 19:14:37 I don't run the build from bash, though I did write my build script in unix shell for some reason 19:14:47 Felyza: another issue is that MSVC projects are incompatible between versions 19:14:49 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:05 a few of us have several versions installed ;) 19:15:25 Felyza, looks to me like INSTALL.txt is pretty clear on gcc being the only supported compiler 19:15:31 par for the course when taking college classes though 19:15:34 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:15:42 geekosaur: icc, clang 19:16:04 "The only officially supported compiler is gcc (available on almost all Unixes, and as MinGW for Windows)." 19:16:28 (yes, I was aware that clang works) 19:16:43 geekosaur, with the inclusion of the solutions, it appears that vs is also supported. hence, why I made the minor suggestion of removing said solutions 19:17:30 I think there's a comment somewhere in the windows build section saying "they're there but haven't been known to work in years" 19:17:44 I have worked in and out on many different projects where vs is 'supported' by a portion of the community and in source, though not on the official channels 19:17:51 geekosaur: Win98 19:17:53 maybe they cpuld be moved to an attic directory or something 19:18:01 G-Flex: hm, why doesn't it actually take 0.0 time? it can't ever do anything afaik 19:18:19 elliptic: axes 19:18:22 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 19:18:24 kilobyte: that doesn't work 19:18:28 cleave stops on walls 19:18:37 ah well, made the suggestion, time to close all this crap down and fire up a shell then 19:19:05 in any case INSTALL.txt does a pretty good job of telling you what you need to build it 19:19:29 -!- bh is now known as _bh 19:19:39 -!- _bh is now known as bh 19:20:26 there's this ticket: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4269 19:20:34 bh is so corrupt an altar to Lucy follows him around! 19:20:40 some msvc fixing talk and patches were being thrown around in there 19:21:17 (I wouldn't just blindly build something without reading its readme/install instructions, even with smart configure scripts you may find that you really wanted to install some dependency first to get the features you wanted) 19:21:23 oh right 19:22:09 G-Flex: currently the only thing ctrl-attacking a wall does is trigger an event if a vault is using this functionality 19:22:09 geekosaur, I tried with and without deps (and building all deps on my own)... unfortunately I ran into externals issues with the newer versions of the deps. 19:22:32 mumra: "Okrist the orc warlord" :D 19:22:41 orcrist 19:22:41 <_< 19:23:01 geekosaur, I am giving up on it now though, I have 4 different versions of mingw as well, so I'm working on getting that going 19:23:05 G-Flex: so it wouldn't make sense for it to use attack delay, since it is never an attack, but it is still using up time because of this possibility of pushing a button on the wall or whatever 19:23:11 which I don't think any vault is actually using 19:23:32 (Does that feature even exist?) 19:24:34 dgn_event event(DET_WALL_HIT, target); 19:24:48 bh: nice :) 19:25:52 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:26:09 mumra: if i get fired or something, i will gladly resume lava orcs. also if someone else wants to work on them i'd be glad to work with them 19:26:26 i just don't speak C++ well, so it's a really inefficient use of my time 19:27:43 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-370-g001aa03: New Lamia tile 10(35 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=001aa0366f99 19:27:43 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-371-g162397d: Erica tile edit 10(32 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=162397d39dfa 19:27:43 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-372-ge4940c2: Realign Lamia's weapon 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e4940c2f65fc 19:27:59 (this ^^ is why I'm not likely to actually do any crawl dev. C, perl, haskell fine; c++? erm...) 19:28:36 ontoclasm: that hair isn't nearly ostentatious enough!!! :b 19:28:48 as for LO fun... people like them, the complaints are - for once - actually just that they are too powerful! 19:29:01 which is a bit misleading; most of that power is early game, and it's easiest to fix there 19:29:26 -!- nonethousand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:29:53 whoa. one of my orcs got polymorphed into a hippogriff 19:30:12 geekosaur: you could write C-like cpp :) 19:30:17 bh: does that set it hostile? it really should 19:30:30 Eronarn: nope. I have a perma-ally hippogriff 19:30:39 bh: reminds me of someone having a storm dragon permaally once :b 19:30:41 bh: polying something away from being an orc, or into being an orc, should be an abomination 19:30:46 maybe it shouldn't make the polymorphed orc hostile, but the other orcs 19:30:51 An abomination unto Beogh! 19:31:00 yes, polying an orc willingly as beogh should be a huge no-no 19:31:24 Eronarn: I don't know if you were reading the chat logs, but the consensus seems to be: someone should clean up lava race and merge it 19:31:25 this, and most polymorph abuse, could be solved by making monster transformations temporary 19:31:29 also, wrt beogh: beogh protecting your orcs from lava orc fire seems fine to me, the god already gifts your orcs blessings 19:31:41 -!- Ursa is now known as FalseEye 19:32:03 * elliott thinks that sounds reasonable 19:32:29 kilobyte: i actually like perm poly; why not keep that and just have badform be temporary? 19:32:48 player badform is temporary, monster should be too... 19:32:54 Eronarn: levelling up or healing isn't anywhere close to resistances 19:33:06 geekosaur: any player forms are temporary 19:33:07 -!- PsyMar has quit [Quit: Be excellent to one another, and party on dudes!] 19:33:17 no amulets of unchanging 19:33:22 right, so there should be some consistency there 19:34:00 oh, it looks like the DET_WALL_HIT stuff is used currently in one vault 19:34:07 ldierk_statue_collapse 19:34:11 * kilobyte still hates NetHack devteam for breaking unchanging xorns in a "recent" version. 19:34:34 should there be consistancy 19:34:36 really 19:34:47 kilobyte: um: 19:34:49 case GOD_BEOGH: 19:34:49 { 19:34:49 // Remove harmful ailments from a monster, or heal it, if 19:34:49 // possible. 19:34:51 if (coinflip()) 19:34:54 { 19:34:56 if (_blessing_balms(follower)) 19:35:10 that removes pois, sick, rot, conf, slow, fatigue 19:35:10 ack. cntrl+direction doesn't work on OSX! 19:35:13 elliptic: what's the point of that vault again? 19:35:18 kilobyte: I have no clue 19:35:37 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 19:35:52 bh, it should if you disable the OS overrides, System Preferences > Keyboard 19:36:05 geekosaur: thanks. remind me never to own another mac. 19:36:06 the only good thing anyone would break the statue for is a chance for for large rocks 19:36:34 * geekosaur disables ctrl+arrow Spaces foo first thing, pretty much 19:38:02 wrt the rename... i would argue that for an abstract species, having a related species is better than not. however, there's diminishing returns, and it would be too much to have all species with a related species 19:38:24 i do not think we're at that point: we've cut our number of elves, dwarves, and ogres 19:39:44 is spider:1 more dangerous than snake:1? it certainly feels that way 19:39:45 out of the existing 'relatable' species, a strong melee weak magic except for a few areas would fit well with, say: minotaurs, dwarves, ogres, orcs 19:40:05 infernotaurs 19:40:09 I guess the question is whether anyone will ever want DET_WALL_HIT for anything worthwhile or whether we should just remove it 19:40:23 ogres are right out; minotaurs are pretty meh imo. that leaves dwarves/orcs 19:40:28 it seems like one of those things that only people who have looked in the source know about 19:40:36 i would definitely be in favour of removing it 19:40:41 and i feel like what we actually need is an *ice* dwarf, not a lava one 19:40:46 bh: my a lot, I'd say 19:40:50 s/my/by/ 19:40:51 MarvinPA: well, it is documented 19:40:52 !lg * place=Snake:1 cv=0.12-a 19:40:53 54. Kupo the Thaumaturge (L15 DrVM), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, annihilated by Agnes (a +2,+1 lajatang of speed) on Snake:1 on 2013-03-17 01:32:59, with 81657 points after 43005 turns and 10:06:12. 19:40:54 !lg * place=Spider:1 cv=0.12-a 19:40:55 73. Beamed the Brawler (L15 TrMo), worshipper of Okawaru, slain by a wolf spider on Spider:1 on 2013-03-30 05:07:34, with 106312 points after 29028 turns and 2:41:44. 19:40:58 !apt DD 19:40:59 DD: Fighting: -1, Short: -1, Long: 0, Axes: 1, Maces: 0, Polearms: -1, Staves: -1, Slings: 1, Bows: -3, Xbows: 1, Throw: -1, Armour: 1, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 3, Stab: -1, Shields: 1, Traps: 1, UC: -1, Splcast: -2, Conj: -1, Hexes: -2, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: 1, Tloc: 1, Tmut: -1, Fire: -1, Ice: -1, Air: -3, Earth: 3!, Poison: -2, Inv: 3!, Evo: 4!, Exp: -1, HP: 2, MP: 0 19:40:59 elliptic: exactly 19:41:02 MarvinPA: in docs/develop/levels/triggerables.txt 19:41:03 kilobyte: microsoft did finally standardise VS .sln files so they work between versions ... this is only true as of VS2010 and VS2012 however 19:41:10 !lg * place=Swamp:1 cv=0.12-a 19:41:11 44. Fruden the Destroyer (L14 DgCj), engulfed by a swamp drake's noxious fumes on Swamp:1 on 2013-04-02 16:51:54, with 79334 points after 36368 turns and 3:33:01. 19:41:12 ok well that's pretty comparable to looking in the source :P 19:41:19 if we made LOs into, say, forge dwarves they'd be quite similar 19:41:21 !lg * place=Shoals:1 cv=0.12-a 19:41:21 29. TheDoctor the Merry Centaur (L20 CeHu), worshipper of Okawaru, succumbed to a sea snake's poison on Shoals:1 on 2013-03-28 17:20:32, with 248613 points after 51965 turns and 5:45:57. 19:41:23 for players i mean, not vaultmakers 19:41:43 mumra: good to hear, I tried it on 2008 vs 2010 19:41:49 maybe it could be useful in sprint 19:42:12 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 19:42:17 now there's also the option of not having LOs be related - but is there any reason for that? the only ones i've heard have been 'i don't like it' and 'beogh' 19:42:31 MarvinPA: right, it seems hard to indicate to people that wasting a turn hitting a wall is what they should be doing 19:42:44 of course spider is going to have the most depth:1 deaths in that the monsters are universally fast, but that doesn't make the entire branch necessarily harder to actually kill things in 19:42:47 it doesn't seem useful for anything you couldn't do with just a triggerable spot on the floor, and is also weird and unintuitive, yeah 19:42:54 Eronarn: theme issues, too 19:43:19 there are legitimate problems with beogh, but they're implementation details to my mind. even ignoring that flavor is flexible, there's precedent for multiracial beogh, beogh protecting your orcs, and beogh gifting orcs that don't exist in that environment (e.g., normal orcs in portal vaults) 19:43:28 kilobyte: like? 19:43:30 Eronarn: and let's see it from the other side: there's no reason _for_ them to be orc, other than acronym silliness 19:43:39 shoals has always been pretty bad about having a large group of weak monsters make up the majority of the set and the end cramming together the actually interesting and difficult monsters that could be much more common 19:43:45 [20:23:04] <+elliptic> G-Flex: so it wouldn't make sense for it to use attack delay, since it is never an attack, but it is still using up time because of this possibility of pushing a button on the wall or whatever 19:43:48 the game specifically says you attack 19:43:58 wait, no it doesn't 19:44:00 I could swear it did earlier 19:44:06 why am I about to go on this point anyway 19:44:13 kilobyte: do you disagree with my premise that it is better for a race to have related races, all else being equal? 19:44:15 Eronarn: like, having their basic metabolism work so much different from any other humanoid 19:44:15 removing it seems sort of hard, hm 19:44:47 I don't know how many problems might be caused by broken lua if a game has this vault generated already? 19:45:41 kilobyte: the metabolism issue is pretty silly given how high magic crawl is 19:45:52 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:45:57 elliptic: *probably* none, the event will just never be able to fire 19:46:04 Eronarn: I don't see what a race being "related" would get us 19:46:44 Eronarn: like, all elves have in common is "all slots available, lowish hp, elven gear is slightly better" 19:47:00 -!- Netmonmatt has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:47:11 mumra: hm, right, it shouldn't break aside from being unable to hit the statue like the text tells you to 19:47:15 elliptic: i think if for any obscure reason we ever did want a wall button, it would be much better interface for the player to just walk into it rather than having to realise they need to ctrl+direction 19:47:34 mumra: yes, though we don't want walking into any old wall to use up a turn 19:47:39 elliptic: there's an easy way to test that, you know 19:47:45 (we also don't really want ctrl-attacking to use up a turn) 19:47:47 we do not want wall buttons, that is a bad vault using a bad feature 19:48:01 (the vault removal, I mean) 19:48:05 kilobyte: elves have pretty related apts, except for sludge elves, which are defined by being *unlike* other elves - also, i think the flavor of having related races is valuable 19:48:17 there are legit reasons to let the player trigger things but we can (and already) use moving onto a square for that 19:48:19 (also remember we used to have many more elves, who had even more related apts) 19:48:54 evilmike: goog point 19:49:15 Eronarn: and remember that those elves got removed 19:50:24 -!- tenofswords has left ##crawl-dev 19:51:05 mumra: sure, they were too similar and there were too many of them - but in principle i'd say a new interesting elf with some mechanical and flavor relationship to existing elves is better than a new isolated species differing only by name 19:51:18 as long as that relationship is convincing enough 19:51:47 -!- Zifmia has quit [] 19:52:35 i think it's a completely irrelevant point whether the new species is called an "elf" or anything else, the name of the species in entirely window dressing; if the mechanics are interesting enough to be worth having a new race then it's a good feature 19:53:09 but i would say adding a new elf is needlessly confusing and we should dress it as something entirely different 19:53:33 elven or orcish gear getting a tiny bonus is nearly irrelevant, yeah 19:53:36 because this is more interesting in terms of content, flavour, mythology, etc. than further muddying the elf waters 19:53:49 mud elves 19:53:52 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:54:55 when i first started playing crawl and there were all these different types of elf and dwarf it was really hard to get a handle on what they all meant. whereas "felid", "octopode" ... they instantly give you a sense of flavour and purpose 19:55:24 so one thing that hasn't really been discussed is how this would *positively* affect beogh 19:55:34 i still hate sludge elves; they have no theme at all 19:55:44 ontoclasm: +1 19:56:06 i basically have no idea what they are or why they're different from other elves 19:56:08 uc (but not really) and some totally random magic schools 19:56:22 (i mean in terms of flavour, not mechanics) 19:56:31 !apt se 19:56:32 SE: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: -2, Staves: 0, Slings: 0, Bows: 0, Xbows: 0, Throw: 2, Armour: -2, Dodge: 2, Stealth: 2, Stab: 0, Shields: -2, Traps: 0, UC: 1!, Splcast: 1, Conj: -2, Hexes: 0, Charms: -2, Summ: 1, Nec: 1, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 3!, Fire: 1, Ice: 1, Air: 1, Earth: 1, Poison: 1, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: 0, HP: -1, MP: 1 19:56:33 !apt mf 19:56:34 Mf: Fighting: 1, Short: 2, Long: 1, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: 4!, Staves: -2, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: 0, Armour: -3*, Dodge: 3, Stealth: 2, Stab: 2, Shields: 0, Traps: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: -2, Hexes: 0, Charms: 1, Summ: 0, Nec: -2, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3!, Fire: -3*, Ice: 1, Air: -2, Earth: -2, Poison: 1, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: 0, HP: 0, MP: 0 19:56:41 -!- scummos has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:56:46 new pr[beogh] start option, new options for orc casters, the ability to go into certain vaults or branches preferentially for recruiting reasons 19:56:57 also, the ability to have 'rare' beogh orcs 19:57:13 you could call them something completely made up, like "mudsludger", and i would have a better picture in my mind of this imaginary creature than when i read "sludge elf" 19:57:16 there was discussiong of removing pr 19:57:37 mumra: sludge elves are the degenerate, backward cousins of elves. that's cool :| 19:57:46 there was discussion of removing Pr and giving HO the option of joining beogh if an orc priest is in sight (which I really like) 19:57:51 Eronarn: doesn't Boegh already have all the things you listed? 19:58:03 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-373-g3dbf958: Forest fire tile 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 6+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3dbf95886ce9 19:58:12 mumra: rare != unique, though unique => rare 19:58:15 ontoclasm is on fire tonight! 19:58:26 elliptic: yeah, the only downside I can think of is how to convey to the player that he can convert 19:58:29 Eronarn: it would help if you gave specific examples 19:58:34 elliptic: that is a really great idea 19:59:00 (of course LO could also convert to beogh that way) 19:59:17 elliptic: 'p' if you have no god would be a good interface (no accidents if you need to abandon first), but the player needs to be told so 19:59:22 mumra: by rare i mean lava orcs would be rare, and they'd have a different monster set. so you'd have orcs unreachable by growing normal ones 20:00:43 kilobyte: yeah, it's the usual difficulty of finding a good in-game way of telling people the correct command to use 20:01:02 as for recruiting, orc is the only place affected by beogh preference currently; lorcs may have a different distribution that favors other stuff 20:01:10 orc priests could be given special guaranteed text when an atheist HO first enters sight, of course 20:01:47 orc priests drop portable altars of beogh 20:02:47 elliptic: as it has been said, any wording that wouldn't be mistaken for flavour text would break the fourth wall 20:03:24 -!- inpho has quit [Quit: inpho] 20:03:24 right, I don't think that "Pray to Beogh!" or whatever is enough on its own 20:03:28 well, have the flavour text, then have a game message 20:03:30 st_: could just allow praying on an orc corpse 20:03:52 perhaps we could drop a line after the orc's speech 20:03:54 there could also be something in the description of the HO race I guess 20:03:59 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: power outage] 20:04:04 might be easy to miss, though 20:04:09 (ps can we make beogh not-evil yet) 20:04:17 elliptic: good idea -- folks don't read docs, but still 20:04:33 first time you see a priest, show the message with a [more] prompt 20:04:56 Eronarn: good gods really hate racists other than themselves 20:05:46 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:52 Eronarn: that's not something that must be kept, of course, but I'd say this fits RL religion so well, and has no real downsides I can think of 20:06:49 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:57 * geekosaur suddenly imagines packs of orc priests doing the JW thing 20:07:08 JW? 20:07:19 Jehovah's Witnesses 20:07:39 somewhat infamous in the US for going house to house trying to gather converts 20:07:54 not just the US 20:08:34 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:09:36 kilobyte: if we're determining evil by actions, the set of creatures beogh gives piety for is a strict subset of the set of creatures non-evil gods give piety for. if we're determining evil by intent, why is genocide worse than omnicide (see previous)? if we're determining evil by judgment of the good gods, we can make that as arbitrary as we want 20:10:02 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:10:12 what difference does it make if Beogh is good or not? 20:11:17 abandoning a good god for Beogh is kind of an edge case 20:11:26 mumra: it changes the effectiveness of holy god stuff, such as making recite super powerful against orcs 20:11:26 mumra: conversion from good gods, TSO piety for priest kills, Zin's recite 20:11:54 "recite" and "super powerful" doesn't really belong in one sentence 20:12:04 Eronarn: let me rephrase the question - what is the *advantage*, from a gameplay perspective, of Beogh becoming a good god? 20:12:07 at least other than Yiuf, he's the biggest special case 20:12:08 heaven forbid recite be good against anything 20:12:25 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 20:12:58 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:12:58 Eronarn: because it seems like a pretty big thing to rework the flavour, i.e. suddenly letting you convert from TSO etc., and i don't see what is gained 20:14:58 mumra: well, neutral, not good - the advantages are 1) it reduces ambiguity about what 'evil' is 2) it fixes the athiest orc problem 3) it fixes a weird, unjustified spike in recite's effectiveness (giving room to buff it further) and TSO's piety 20:15:13 "from a gameplay perspective" 20:15:19 i don't see how any of that improves gameplay 20:15:20 what "atheist orc problem"? 20:16:03 well TSO piety is not exactly the fastest thing in the kinds of places you see orcs to start with 20:16:21 kilobyte: last time i checked there was no easy way to distinguish between evil and non-evil orcs 20:16:33 'evil' is ambiguous by it's very definition: things a thoroughly unhinged god (or trio of gods in our case) dislike 20:17:17 Christianity's rules are nearly totally random 20:17:56 Islam is somewhat more consistent, mostly around "everything not with us is bad" 20:18:00 mrbobbyg (L27 HOPr) ASSERT(!env.orb_pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc' at line 177 failed. (Zot:4) 20:18:13 mrbobbyg (L27 HOPr) ASSERT(!env.orb_pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc' at line 177 failed. (Zot:4) 20:18:27 !lm * type=crash -log 20:18:27 4669. mrbobbyg, XL27 HOPr, T:84961 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/mrbobbyg/crash-mrbobbyg-20130415-011812.txt 20:18:37 kilobyte: parentheses are part of the fourth wall 20:18:45 mrbobbyg (L27 HOPr) ASSERT(!env.orb_pos.origin()) in 'areas.cc' at line 177 failed. (Zot:4) 20:18:52 ... 20:18:59 !lm mrbobbyg crash -log 20:19:00 4. mrbobbyg, XL27 HOPr, T:84990 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/mrbobbyg/crash-mrbobbyg-20130415-011845.txt 20:19:04 kilobyte: if we want to have a zin where as you gain piety you get more dumb restrictions, that would be swell! but it's a one line fix to make beogh not-evil, and only affects edge cases 20:19:16 -!- dcssrubot699 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:31 recalling orcs from Zot:5 20:19:51 Eronarn: you still haven't said what the gameplay improvement is? 20:20:04 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:20:19 mumra: the ambiguity i mean is the mechanical ambiguity of the evil flag - a lot of people don't even realize orcs are evil 20:20:31 Eronarn: you still haven't said what the gameplay improvement is ... 20:20:48 Eronarn: haven't they read/seen LotR? 20:21:02 and look at their evil grins! 20:21:09 grins? 20:21:13 they are just "o" 20:21:15 smirks? scowls? 20:21:23 use your imagination ;) 20:21:24 Jeers. 20:21:27 (As orcs often do.) 20:21:32 mumra: figuring out whether something is evil occurs during gameplay, and making that easier is an improvement, so... 20:22:03 An ugly subterranean race, orcs combine the worst features of humans, pigs and several other 20:22:04 unpleasant creatures. They tend to run in packs or mobs, and delight in outbursts of insane 20:22:04 violence. 20:22:06 I think Eronarn is right that the relative effectiveness of recite against orcs is something that players don't expect 20:22:09 that's not clear enough ? 20:22:21 i don't see why this is a problem just for orcs, it sounds like there's an interface problem if it's hard to know which monsters are evil and which aren't 20:22:26 hmm, I guess that really is hugeterm 20:22:55 <|amethyst> SamB: it's clear that the description was written by a racist 20:23:21 <|amethyst> FR: descriptions of all the other races are written by followers of beogh 20:24:06 elliptic: isn't that true for many game mechanics, and part of learning the game is learning what is most effective against what? 20:24:07 mumra: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:24:12 !messages 20:24:12 (1/1) HangedMan said (21s ago): would support revamping the evil flag anyway because its implication apply to e.g. _brain_ _worms_ 20:24:21 |amethyst: that would be even MORE racist 20:24:24 SamB: you mean, that crash? 20:24:45 eh? 20:24:49 mumra: generally if you have a mechanic that isn't made explicit, it's good to hint at it with stuff like flavor 20:24:57 <|amethyst> SamB: You see here a human. It looks like a scrawny orc with a flat face. It is ugly and vile and must be destroyed. 20:25:03 mumra: it doesn't work very well when "evil" only matters for a couple of rare effects 20:25:06 kilobyte: I was talking about the line wrapping in my paste 20:25:12 ah, ok 20:25:23 since I pasted from a 100-column terminal 20:25:31 SamB: 'outbursts of insane violence' means trog is evil, right 20:27:33 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:28:17 took me a while to figure out he was more than ambiguous, honestly 20:28:20 so a good solution might be just having a line in the monster's description to say if it's evil? 20:28:25 |amethyst: pretty sure the halfling description was vandalized by an orc 20:28:56 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:29:28 elliptic: it does appear so 20:29:52 so when are halflings getting the axe? 20:29:56 mumra: that would be good generally, but it doesn't fix 2/3 20:29:57 to the head! 20:30:14 is that for 0.14? 20:30:15 SamB: well multiple devs have spoken against removing them 20:30:26 and we aren't up to 28 races 20:30:27 so 20:30:29 elliptic: well they might want to change the description 20:30:57 we should make our halflings work like Hydra Slayer's 20:31:03 that isn't even a joke 20:31:08 it would be much more interesting 20:31:18 ??hydra slayer 20:31:18 I don't have a page labeled hydra_slayer in my learndb. 20:31:36 -!- Xelf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:51 Eronarn: how is that? 20:31:52 -!- ark__ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:59 SamB: hydra slayer is a roguelike where you use math to defeat hydras; one is only killed if you cut off exactly all of its heads, and you can't use a sword bigger than the number of heads it has 20:32:14 in hydra slayer, you get halfling twins 20:32:36 two halves = one whole? 20:32:48 is that like ice climbers? 20:33:04 (The Melee character) 20:33:18 a race that has an inherent permanent pet might be kinda neat 20:33:31 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:31 SamB: yes 20:33:48 -!- G-Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:34:35 -!- wjchen has joined ##crawl-dev 20:34:37 hm, so I finally got around to testing this ldierk_statue_collapse removal, and it looks like it breaks saves if I just remove the vault outright 20:34:54 Could not resolve 'callback.ldierk_statue_collapse' to a function 20:34:59 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 20:35:12 what file is that? 20:35:18 could you just leave the function inside #ifdef tags? 20:35:26 ifdef in lua? 20:35:26 crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/dlua/fnwrap.lua:30: 20:35:45 is the error 20:35:45 !vault ldierk_statue_collapse 20:35:52 %vault ldierk_statue_collapse 20:35:57 Lines pasted to http://pastie.org/7559342 20:36:12 the file is dat/des/traps/collapsing_statue.des 20:36:27 dat/des/variable/compat.des 20:36:48 -!- wjchen has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:52 yes, obviously we need to keep that function then 20:36:54 aha, thanks 20:37:11 grunt_victim_ignite is another after-removal stub 20:37:17 elliptic: maybe the "player_los" trigger is getting fired and that causes the error 20:38:00 -!- wjchen has joined ##crawl-dev 20:38:38 -!- mamg has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:35 mumra: what's triggering the error is that we aren't saving Lua closures in our saves because that makes Lua upgrades/crossgrades (to/from LuaJIT)/etc. break save compatability 20:39:58 (Also it would make bugfixes harder) 20:41:58 lua "bytecode" is not portable between platforms, too 20:42:18 I guess that comes under /etc. 20:42:23 it relies at least on endianness and bit width 20:42:35 so it's not even bytecode 20:42:41 properly speaking 20:43:21 it is, just not portable -- it has nothing executable by the host processor 20:43:33 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-374-g29d13d9: Remove a "last modified" header from INSTALL.txt 10(81 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=29d13d96a1d3 20:43:33 03kilobyte 07* 0.13-a0-375-g94f0610: Rewrite the section about platforms Crawl runs on. 10(22 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 11-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=94f06104f9a9 20:43:33 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-376-g9efb55a: Demon and dragon tiles (roctavian, 6892) 10(4 minutes ago, 7 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9efb55a327b2 20:43:36 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:43:38 also it's portable as long as endianness and bit width matches 20:43:51 that is, unless luaJIT is involved 20:44:00 or I guess different versions of lua 20:44:04 yeah 20:44:31 no point in arguing about wording, what matters is: it's not portable enough 20:44:42 quite 20:45:15 I wasn't claiming we should be saving closures ;-) 20:45:26 so i just loaded up to check the way it works in hydra slayer since it's been a while: you can switch twins at will, and control either one twin (second AIs) or both twins (possibly two 'actions' in one round) 20:45:46 interesting 20:45:48 the main disad is that they can carry fewer weapons (1 each, instead of hydra slayer's default 2) 20:45:52 SamB: we actually do: in the des cache 20:46:11 kilobyte: ... in *saves* 20:46:40 i suspect something similar could be made to work in crawl, except since our turns have a lot more going on, probably always have one of them AI controlled? 20:46:54 Eronarn: swapping would be a bit tricky 20:46:58 yeah, controlling two guys seems... odd 20:47:37 since having two instances of player is an obvious no-go 20:47:37 FR: coop multiplayer mode 20:47:46 i wouldn't even let them swap, just have one twin be "you" and the other be "some dude following you" 20:47:51 SamB: yeah i know the function is being called by name, the question is why it needs to be called if the wall_hit event has been removed in C++ ... 20:48:20 -!- faz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:48:20 SamB: moving that crapload of fields from struct player elsewhere would add a lot of clarity 20:48:22 and i wondered if the answer is that the vault also had a los trigger which will still be getting called 20:48:37 03elliptic 07* 0.13-a0-377-gd05f410: Make ctrl-attacking a wall not waste a turn. 10(31 minutes ago, 8 files, 10+ 114-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d05f410291f7 20:48:39 mumra: oh, yeah, I think you missed the question before 20:48:53 ooh 20:48:53 that is, I would have understood the answer better if it came with the question 20:49:11 we could make one half the magic half, and one half the melee half. and turn dowan and duvessa into them! 20:49:32 interesting concept 20:49:35 if you level melee-ish skills, your twin learns magic and vice versa? 20:49:55 it so happens that many characters level both melee and magic skills 20:50:06 yes, and then so would the twin 20:50:08 obviously MHITYOU would be insufficient with two player instances 20:50:42 -!- FalseEye has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:50:43 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:47 and you.can_see() too ... and loads of stuff ... 20:51:04 and how would inventory work? 20:51:35 i don't mean "you game checks if you're a 'caster' and makes your twin melee" 20:51:41 SamB: the entire 'you' object :P 20:51:52 i mean, the twins melee damage is higher if you have magic skills, and its magic is better if you have melee skills 20:51:53 -!- rzimodnar has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:52:01 -!- RZX is now known as rzimodnar 20:52:13 so if you -do- specialize, it will specialize the opposite way 20:52:13 mumra: except the parts that are just actor(), basically, yes 20:52:16 er. 20:52:21 why did I put parens after that 20:52:36 another option is: the two of you are normally joined, but certain status effects (like trample! :D) cause you to lose a random halfling, spawning a buddy who you can re-merge with 20:53:13 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:53:28 ontoclasm: maybe something like if you spec in earth magic, your twin specs in air? 20:53:41 03ontoclasm 07* 0.13-a0-378-g6c5a15d: Spear and quarterstaff doll tiles (roctavian, 6892) 10(8 minutes ago, 3 files, 2+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6c5a15d9ce3f 20:54:12 sure 20:55:34 -!- randomizr has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:56:24 multiple actions could be a bit weird... i'm not sure whether staying together/splitting up should result in more/less capability 20:57:13 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:57:40 is there a cmap field or something for sequell? i was curious about sprint map stats so i did a query, but it spams the list full of subvaults now 20:57:50 if there isn't one it's not a big deal, just wondering 20:58:15 there's some way to get the first entry 20:58:23 ??!lg 20:58:23 listgame[1/7]: !lg command displays info about past games. The manual is available here: http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 20:58:48 hm 20:58:57 so this race could potentially do shatternado? 20:59:02 evilmike: is there a field in the log entries? 20:59:36 !lg * sprint s=mapdesc 20:59:37 207825 games for * (sprint): 66163x Sprint I: "Red Sonja", 43690x Sprint III: "The Ten Rune Challenge", 28287x, 21110x Sprint II: "The Violet Keep of Menkaure", 13381x Sprint V: "Ziggurat Sprint", 12195x Sprint IV: "Fedhas' Mad Dash", 7773x Sprint VIII: "Arena of Blood", 7653x Sprint VI: "Thunderdome", 7573x Sprint VII: "The Pits" 20:59:37 SamB: i assume so, currently a pitsprint subvault would show up as "pitsprint; foo" 20:59:39 evilmike: there's that, at least 20:59:44 good enough 20:59:45 blackcustard: heck yeah 20:59:51 probably a way to get the real map names, but it would be more annoying I think 21:00:45 -!- rzimodnar has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:00:53 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:57 actually, I still want one of those for milestones 21:01:48 chapeyev is King Vaultkills 21:02:02 how could anyone get close 21:03:06 I don't really play sprint so my logfiles has no recent sprint game 21:03:53 !lg * sprint s=vault(map) 21:03:54 207825 games for * (sprint): 67368x dungeon_sprint_1, 43690x dungeon_sprint_mu, 26996x, 21110x the_violet_keep_of_menkaure, 13381x sprint_v, 12195x dungeon_sprint_fedhas, 7773x meatsprint, 7653x arena_sprint, 7573x pitsprint, 16x grunt_runaround, 14x hangedman_pleasuredromes, 11x grunt_profane_halls, 10x evilmike_zot_entry_castle, 7x evilmike_zot_entry_argh, 6x evilmike_zot_entry_hall, 4x evilmike... 21:03:55 SamB: "you" is a global instance of "player" ... so it doesn't matter which parts are from actor, there is still a problem of only being one instance ... 21:04:05 lol d:27 vaults 21:04:15 er 21:04:34 why is that getting non-sprint stuff 21:04:36 it was a bug, sprint D is considered d:$ 21:04:42 so it was placing D ending vaults 21:04:43 elliptic: because grunt 21:04:50 but mumra ruined it :( 21:04:53 oh, it actually placed those for a while in sprint? great 21:04:56 sorry I missed it 21:05:01 basically zot entries were given D:$ instead of D:27 and amazing things happened 21:05:03 it was sort of boring 21:05:13 you got D:1 monsters if they used 089 though, that was pretty good 21:05:18 elliptic: it was hilarious for about 5 mins 21:05:23 did it place a zot entrance 21:05:23 and sometimes it would build a regular level around the vault except it would have no monsters or anything 21:05:26 yes 21:05:38 also a vaults entrance, because one vault changed zot / vaults entrance based on the level it placed on 21:05:42 NEW SPRINT IDEA. 21:05:45 (checked for whether it was D:27, which sprint isn't) 21:05:54 st_: hmm? 21:05:59 mostly you would press o and die to a draconian 21:06:59 so can my "ID books on pickup" feature be in 0.12? 21:07:24 it's just UI really 21:07:46 yeah, it's not as if reading a book takes turns 21:08:06 -!- Xelf is now known as G-Flex 21:08:59 -!- madreisz has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:09:15 also IMO it was a bug that recall would let your dudes run away after 21:12:36 -!- bitsailor_ has quit [Quit: bitsailor_] 21:13:57 Fixes for serving webtiles on a Mac by CKyle 21:15:20 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:16:22 I suggest disabling meatsprint in tiles for 0.12 21:16:24 and forever 21:17:01 how?" 21:18:25 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:52 don't ask me 21:21:27 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:26:14 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:18 -!- Isasaur has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:30:42 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:33 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:15 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:28 -!- hhugrm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:34 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:36:58 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:44 -!- varmin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:52 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 21:43:31 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:16 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 21:48:11 -!- rossi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:49:21 -!- dcssrubot231 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:04 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:52:53 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:26 -!- Blade- has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:54:30 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:32 -!- bitsailor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:55:32 -!- bitsailor_ has quit [Changing host] 21:55:32 -!- bitsailor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:55:40 -!- Zifmia has quit [Quit: Wrong button bad with computers] 21:56:33 -!- danharaj has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 21:59:33 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:31 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00:42 -!- johnny0 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:01:40 -!- Wolfram has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:02:29 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:04:47 Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-378-g6c5a15d 22:04:47 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:09:49 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]] 22:11:46 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:17:01 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:47 -!- fiyawerx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:25:02 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:20 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 22:29:38 -!- Spardakus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:31:40 -!- jday_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:41 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 22:32:42 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:24 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:36:33 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:36:36 Q: should the player be guaranteed to start in the enty vault? 22:36:38 *entry 22:36:43 Because they occasionally don't. 22:37:26 oh? 22:37:43 It happened in the game I just started, for example. 22:39:27 * geekosaur has seen that occasionally, and actually approved of it occasionally picking some other entrance that might not be in the vault 22:39:45 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:41:00 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 22:46:25 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:10 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:08 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:22 -!- gnsh has quit [] 22:56:14 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 22:59:30 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:02:57 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:05:38 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:07:13 Grunt: maybe a result of attempting to place the player illegally? 23:08:30 Zannick: what, like trying to place non-lava-orcs on lava or something? 23:08:47 or on top of a monster? 23:08:57 i'm not familiar with it 23:09:34 actually, since the player starts on an exit, that can't happen right? 23:09:41 (the lava thing) 23:10:11 fr: lava stairs 23:11:51 lol 23:13:22 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:17:44 -!- johnstein has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 23:18:19 -!- johnstein has joined ##crawl-dev 23:18:54 -!- johnstein_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:19:27 -!- dcssrubot381 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:40 -!- johnstein_ has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:28 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:49 -!- johnstein_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:20:53 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:20:54 -!- johnstein_ has quit [Client Quit] 23:22:29 -!- johnstein_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:22:33 -!- Hisar has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:22:37 -!- johnstein_ has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:21 Grunt: a player can't start atop a monster, as monsters in LOS get removed 23:27:44 I'm not really sure that has to do with anything. 23:28:06 I'm guessing that it has to do with the interaction of the vault with layouts and stair-shuffling as done in dungeon.cc. 23:30:46 I see it happen most often with entry vaults that only place one stair. 23:33:03 * SamB wonders if stair shuffling for entry vaults needs to be done separately or something 23:33:14 -!- Beneather has quit [Quit: Beneather] 23:33:38 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:34:19 one stair: problem solved 23:36:10 -!- Hisar_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:38:03 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:40:31 having only one upstairs on D:1 sounds reasonable, yeah 23:41:29 so zotdef is now played on zot:5? 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