00:01:05 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-3174-g7e53925 (34) 00:02:59 |amethyst: care for either of these quotes for the pie: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XQdZmEBe 00:03:51 hmm, we've already missed pi day this year, but would Jester also be available then in future years? 00:03:54 -!- eeviac_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:07 SamB: what would stop us? 00:09:31 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:09:54 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:43 -!- evilmike_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:13:11 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:14:45 <|amethyst> SamB: I'm seeing all kind of inlined STL stuff, but no calls to libc 00:15:57 is libc involved in signal delivery these days? 00:16:10 <|amethyst> probably, yes 00:17:13 <|amethyst> okay, so I did an objdump on libc 00:17:24 <|amethyst> /lib/libc.so.6(+0x32230) [0x7f84aa41b230]: was the stack frame in question 00:17:30 <|amethyst> 32230: 48 c7 c0 0f 00 00 00 mov $0xf,%rax 00:17:31 <|amethyst> 32237: 0f 05 syscall 00:17:47 ... ookay ... 00:18:00 <|amethyst> what is AX=0xf 00:18:54 <|amethyst> #define __NR_mmap 9 00:18:54 <|amethyst> __SYSCALL(__NR_mmap, sys_mmap) 00:19:03 <|amethyst> oh, f not 9, derp 00:19:14 <|amethyst> #define __NR_rt_sigreturn 15 00:19:18 <|amethyst> bingo 00:20:26 yeah, that definitely looks like a signal trampoline 00:21:38 so, it looks like it might be a good idea to make our signal handlers "extern" 00:22:18 so we can pick them out in these stack traces 00:22:23 <|amethyst> yeah 00:22:57 <|amethyst> still no idea what raised the signal in the first place 00:23:16 <|amethyst> there was only this recursive dump, and nothing for the original crash 00:24:37 yeah, the second signal we sent ourselves 00:25:10 whatever signal that is 00:26:19 I guess probably SIGABRT 00:26:57 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27:06 * SamB seems to remember sticking that line in before the abort() call because MSVCRT pops up a useless dialog box for abort() ... 00:28:06 <|amethyst> hmm 00:28:30 <|amethyst> the address in our function is a repz cmpsb 00:28:57 <|amethyst> I was confused because it looked like the middle of an instruction, but it's the cmpsb instruction 00:29:46 <|amethyst> (in particular, it's calculating a string length) 00:29:51 I guess it would be hard to save coredumps for recursive crashes ? 00:30:18 <|amethyst> I don't know if there's a way to dump core but still continue executing 00:30:35 fork() 00:30:57 <|amethyst> yeah, I guess that would work 00:31:26 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 00:31:59 -!- Xelf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:32:54 <|amethyst> it could be that that cmpsb triggered a SIGSEGV 00:33:19 oh, did I forget to mention that that's the only thing I could think of that could be triggered by that? 00:33:25 ... I guess I did ... 00:34:09 <|amethyst> couldn't it be preempted in the middle of the repz? 00:35:35 well, yes, there's also certainly the possibility of something not triggered by that at all 00:39:09 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:41:35 hmm, not sure how likely an asynchronous signal during that actually is though 00:41:49 <|amethyst> yeah, it would have to be a really long string 00:42:13 <|amethyst> hm, repz not repnz 00:42:45 I was thinking that the CPU might not bother to come up for breath unless paging was needed 00:43:43 03bh 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3145-g695900e: Custard Pies 10(7 minutes ago, 9 files, 74+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=695900edb403 00:43:45 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:44:00 really? 00:44:01 <|amethyst> SamB: the instruction set reference says "A repeating string operation can be suspended by an exception or interrupt." 00:44:02 :P 00:44:14 <|amethyst> paging is relatively likely anyway 00:44:30 Zannick: this is serious business 00:44:38 yes, obviously they would *say* that, since they don't want to tie their own hands 00:45:08 it sure is 00:45:20 <|amethyst> seems like that would be pretty bad for multitasking OSes if you could do a rep on a large chunk of memory and forbid delivery of interrupts 00:45:30 guess so 00:45:52 so I guess it probably does check for that at reasonable intervals 00:47:55 -!- Marceluiz has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:50:02 bh: for the pie quote i would be templed to use "Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." (from Chronicles) 00:50:08 templed? tempted 00:50:22 because that passage is basically a biblical definition of pi 00:51:04 mumra: ah. I went with that quote because it's from a chapter of a novel in which one of the characters outlines his belief that the world is controlled by a cabal of the blind 00:51:45 * SamB actually looks at the references for REP* 00:51:48 yeah, i saw the blind reference; it's also good (and suitable incongruous at first glance) 00:52:01 mumra: so π=3, after all? 00:52:15 mumra: it must be so because the Bible says so! 00:52:23 kilobyte: yeah, it's actually really simple, just trust the book! 00:52:38 kilobyte: they were just rounding off, silly 00:52:57 somewhere there's a website claiming that passage actually correctly identifies it as 3.14 because the surface is a bowl which put their measurements out etc. 00:54:16 -!- AriaB has quit [] 00:54:36 i say 3 isn't actually a bad result considering the level of scientific advancement at that time :P 00:55:19 <|amethyst> "thirty" is correct in its significant figures 00:55:29 <|amethyst> if we assume 3e2 instead of 3.0e2 00:55:39 <|amethyst> err, e1 00:55:53 -!- dcssrubot468 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:09 I expect they could have been a bit more precise but didn't feel like it was necessary 00:56:10 !seen Wensley 00:56:11 I last saw Wensley at Wed Feb 20 00:30:26 2013 UTC (5w 3d 5h 25m 45s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving. 00:59:53 saying 31 instead of 30 doesn't seem like it should have been that hard IMO 01:00:08 -!- Soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:00:43 <|amethyst> or maybe they said 10 instead of 9.55 01:01:10 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-3174-g7e53925 (34) 01:01:34 I suspect that pies are much too powerful. At the moment they can blind anything. 01:01:34 -!- Sabaki has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:39 considering a cubit is the length of elbow to tip of fingers and back in those days they would literally be measuring it with their arms ... and this was a molten sea they were measuring ... i'd say they got to nearly 30 and went "close enough, let's get out of here" 01:01:49 but they're one-shot 01:01:54 if i was writing the bible i think the last thing on my mind would be people complaining about how i described pi a billion years later 01:02:04 bh: just make the blindness duration low and it will be fine 01:02:08 mumra: I assume they were using something like a rope to measure it 01:02:12 like three turns or something 01:02:14 bh: blinding does about nothing 01:02:18 <|amethyst> mumra: surely they had platinum-iridium arms for that 01:02:22 elliptic: 3 turns would be a duration of ~30? 01:02:26 <|amethyst> maybe they were starting to melt 01:02:49 (a)pply a towel, duh 01:03:10 -!- clinew has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:03:18 bh: yeah 01:03:48 maybe 5-6 turns to be generous 01:03:58 elliptic: I agree 01:04:16 it shouldn't take too long for the monsters to apply their towels, though! 01:04:47 so is player blindness becoming a thing 01:04:54 -!- Palyth has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:05:09 let's not make it a thing 01:05:11 elliott: I'm not implementing it. 01:05:11 as it stands, it gives the monster a small accuracy malus, and let's you invisistab 01:05:18 that's all, I think 01:05:21 if a player gets pied, I'm just confusing them 01:05:44 s/let's/lets/ 01:06:03 let us not make it a thing 01:06:16 is there any way to get more pies? are they added to item spawns? 01:06:26 mumra: I didn't add them to spawns 01:06:32 kilobyte: Well, they can also mistake where you actually are, and wander off or fire at the wrong place 01:07:01 mumra: I could make pies spawn in games started on pie day... 01:07:17 in my experience, dudes follow you pretty well when not blind. maybe my stealth was just bad though 01:07:22 when blind* 01:07:35 Yes, stealth helps a bunch. Having some distance also seems to help 01:07:45 seems? didn't you implement it? 01:07:50 No 01:07:53 It already existed 01:07:58 It just wasn't used much 01:07:59 oh from recite 01:08:05 Mechanically it is the same as you being invisible to them, though 01:08:14 So they are as good at tracking you as they would be if you were invisible 01:08:25 i.e., really darn good 01:08:28 Sometimes, yes 01:08:38 And sometimes no (I am not actually quite certain how this works) 01:08:53 which is not 'realistic' per se as they shouldn't be able to find their way around the dungeon so easily when blind 01:09:00 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-3175-g53a79ee: Fix wtile: not working on anything other than shields. 10(19 hours ago, 1 file, 18+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=53a79eead14e 01:09:02 but I don't mind 01:09:02 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-3175-g53a79ee 01:09:37 kilobyte: I was wondering why you hadn't done that before ... 01:09:48 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:10:34 ok. pies are becoming edible. 01:10:57 ok now, when are we getting the keystone kop unique band 01:11:03 never. 01:11:22 when are we getting a band of musicians? 01:11:28 though adding keystone kops and sucubi could be a good joke 01:11:34 yeah, that would take time away from implementing the three stooges 01:11:44 @??succubus 01:11:45 succubus (13m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 300 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious, !sil, 07vault | Res: 06magic(121), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 3115 | Sp: malign gateway | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 01:11:45 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:54 arenasprint exclusive 01:12:05 no mesmerize? 01:12:07 with an once in a blue moon spawn chance 01:12:12 I didn't know they were a kind of mermaid 01:12:42 mesmerize into malign gateway sounds like fun 01:12:57 -!- AriaB1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:13:34 even if you get that far, she spawns once in 12 games 01:14:04 03bh 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3146-gb83ca80: Nerf pies. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b83ca8085a4f 01:14:06 SamB: there was a proposal somewhere for a unique band called the Beetles iirc 01:14:55 they could be 4 rock (boulder) beetles, who drop in on you from the cardinal directions 01:15:16 eeviac: there's already a vault that does that 01:15:23 and I don't like that vault 01:15:27 :| 01:15:57 fr rolling stones vault 01:16:20 BlastHardcheese: it should include no moss. 01:16:53 bh: really it should include moss, the moss simply doesn't interact with the stones 01:16:58 ??moss 01:16:58 I don't have a page labeled moss in my learndb. 01:17:01 fr when boulder beetles smash into you they shout "HOW DOES IT FEEL?" 01:17:49 years from now, when our grandchildren ask about the great devteam purge and schism, we will point to these log lines. 01:18:16 it was the jester 01:19:10 coolrobin crashed in spider with no milestone btw 01:19:11 for april fool's you should give me commit access =D 01:19:12 (sefi) 01:19:28 Oh, huh. Another one? =/ 01:19:57 !lm coolrobin crash 01:19:58 2. [2012-12-03 02:50:35] coolrobin the Anemomancer (L27 TeCK) ASSERT(hiscore != 1e38) in 'spl-tornado.cc' at line 189 failed on turn 108818. (Zig:16) 01:20:20 I still think the best possible use of jester would be to secretly replace fi 01:20:21 * SamB hears it never happened? 01:20:33 !lg coolrobin 01:20:34 207. coolrobin the Carver (L10 SEFi), worshipper of Trog, slain by a giant frog on D:11 on 2013-03-30 04:08:19, with 3715 points after 9999 turns and 0:24:19. 01:20:41 "dude picks mifi" "dude gets mije" 01:22:26 -!- madreisz has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:22:48 you can tv it if you want tos ee the crash i guess 01:22:53 something about sleeping ball lightnings I think 01:23:24 are you sure you weren't killdudesing with ` 01:25:29 i wasn't even playing on it! 01:25:38 but i can assure you i almost never use ` 01:29:12 -!- danharaj has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 01:30:29 * SamB uses it mostly when making lots of an item in wizmode 01:30:53 (or something like that) 01:31:01 you guyz don't use inacc enough then 01:31:10 kill everything with inacc 01:31:20 ??inacc 01:31:21 inaccuracy[1/1]: You might be looking for {amulet of inaccuracy} or {bolt of inaccuracy}, refine your search! 01:31:29 bolt of inacc 01:31:47 ` is one whole keystroke faster than 'v enter' 01:31:55 I've been wondering for ages how you could kill things with the amulet ... 01:31:58 you misspelled "v." 01:32:14 still one whole keystroke 01:34:03 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:39:57 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:41:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:48:58 ??rebuild 01:48:58 rebuild[1/1]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/ http://dobrazupa.org/rebuild/ Bug kilobyte or Napkin for CDO. Use your powers wisely. 01:52:56 ??potion of porridge 01:52:57 potion of porridge[1/2]: A special treat for Oliver Twist! 6040 nutrition. Gluggy white or gluggy brown potion. 01:53:40 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-3176-g206c400 (34) 01:54:31 03kilobyte 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3147-g6b5202d: Blame the correct perpetrator for monster-thrown pies. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6b5202d605d7 01:54:33 Is a potion of porridge a potion masquerading as food or food masquerading as a potion? I'm confused by this line in food.cc: if (you.inv[which_inventory_slot].base_type != OBJ_FOOD) 01:55:29 well it's stored as a potion and shatters like a potion and doesn't get destroyed by spores/harpies 01:55:43 so it's potion as food? 01:56:06 bh: I believe you have to quaff it 01:56:09 Well, it's a potion that gives you extra nutrition when you drink it 01:56:12 despite the fact it gives you nutrition 01:56:15 This doesn't make it 'food' for most purposes 01:56:20 a lot of extra nutrition 01:56:29 and it only takes 1 turn to eat 01:56:29 Any more than royal jelly is a potion because it restores stats 01:56:47 if you could eat it, that would make it even easier to ID 01:56:54 for pies my current thinking is: give some nutrition and cause nausea 01:57:09 why nausea 01:57:10 I don't see that this is very relevant 01:57:19 eeviac: because you just ate an entire pie 01:57:24 Because who is going to eat their one-time supply of battle consumables? 01:57:29 damage the teeth mutations ;-P 01:57:43 it defangs vampies 01:57:45 DracoOmega: it's an April Fools' joke :) 01:57:45 like, thousands of turns later 01:57:52 bh: I realize this, but still! 01:57:56 vampies 01:57:58 heh 01:58:03 If you had them, why would you eat them instead of doing something interesting with them? 01:58:15 to avoid starvation. 01:58:21 powergaming 01:58:24 That implies you had no other food 01:58:27 Which is kind of sad :P 01:58:38 <|amethyst> bh: I think being nauseous from eating too much is represented by "Engorged" rather than "Nausea" 01:58:40 most of it was, um, stashed 01:58:45 <|amethyst> s/ous/ated/ 01:58:48 |amethyst: point 01:59:18 Also, these Crawl people clearly have no difficulty eating a half-dozen whole pizzas in succession 01:59:35 03SamB 07* 0.12-a0-3176-g206c400: More bludgeon butchery: allow knife use as long as the form can wield. 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=206c400a8949 02:00:00 characters in roguelikes are typically horrifying. You're going into a dungeon ill-equipped and you run around murdering and devouring everyone you meet. 02:00:23 IIRC, food code assumes it's OBJ_FOOD everywhere, you'd need to change it in quite a few places 02:00:45 kilobyte: working on it. 02:00:56 <|amethyst> bh: I like nethack's take on that (only alluded to in-game but made explicit in a comment) 02:01:08 |amethyst: oh? link? 02:01:09 just telling "You think there are funnier uses of the pie." would be a cop out, but passable for a short joke 02:01:21 <|amethyst> bh: You ever wondered why there are only three riders? 02:01:23 -!- the_glow1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:01:31 (being harassed by family, though, at the crack of dawn...) 02:01:34 |amethyst: yeah, I know the reason 02:01:52 a kop out 02:01:55 <|amethyst> that's what I was referring to 02:01:56 * bh groans 02:02:48 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 02:03:40 "Yes.. but War does not preserve its enemies." 02:13:16 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:26 -!- Thalfon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:18:40 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:57 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 02:25:13 -!- Cerepol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:13 -!- blackcustard has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:59 -!- dcssrubot92 has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:07 FR: Object types should be sets rather than single enums 02:26:36 sweet. I ate a pie! 02:32:33 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:25 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:05 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3150-gc92a8e7: Prevent selecting inventory items that cannot be used, including melded items for scrolls 10(5 hours ago, 5 files, 24+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c92a8e720bd3 02:40:05 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3151-g30cd1b9: Wheels layout (Zot, Snake) 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 174+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=30cd1b97f0e6 02:40:05 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3152-g77fa016: Procedural CSG 10(13 minutes ago, 2 files, 192+ 10-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=77fa016dcff4 02:40:05 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3153-ge5c58be: A new layout using the procedural CSG functions 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 107+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e5c58be6e9ff 02:40:05 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3154-g7bfe73f: Prevent some standard layouts showing up in Zot 10(9 minutes ago, 2 files, 7+ 7-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7bfe73fa1e37 02:45:09 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3155-g9e6cc92: Unset the debug flag 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9e6cc92b72b4 02:49:13 -!- ebarrett has quit [] 02:54:22 -!- Poot has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:00:20 03bh 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3148-g3194dd2: Pies are edible 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 34+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3194dd2051ed 03:04:10 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:07:37 !seen bh 03:07:38 I last saw bh at Sat Mar 30 08:04:10 2013 UTC (3m 28s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: sleep'. 03:07:58 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:08:11 he just made all items with the same sub type as pie edible 03:09:01 mumra: wasn't the new-layouts branch merged already? 03:14:34 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:18:53 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:19:06 galehar: no, i was talking about it, but i only cherry-picked some stuff i needed for the orc/slime/swamp fixes 03:20:27 galehar: i could merge it all and set the weights to zero for some layouts that aren't quite finished yet, but it's a case of do we want loads of new layouts this soon before freeze? 03:21:35 I don't know 03:21:43 how soon are we before freeze? 03:21:57 Well, we said before the end of the month 03:22:00 And the month is just about ended :P 03:22:08 seems like we're almosr always about to freeze and not adding features :/ 03:22:50 mumra: anyway, seems like you commited c92a8e72 to the new-layouts branch by mistake (intended for master) 03:22:54 Well, it's only been a couple weeks that it's been pending. The checklist of stuff has basically everything important on it already done, I think, or stuff that can easily be done during bugfix window 03:23:25 galehar: oh yeah, i wanted some feedback on that before i merged it to master; i'm worried it could break some marginal things 03:23:37 (and also whether preventing all scrolls working on melded gear is the right thing) 03:24:01 I don't think I see the benefit of doing so 03:24:17 Like, you are not affecting them in a tactical sense, and they are still in your inventory 03:24:22 at the moment some scrolls work, some scrolls don't 03:24:28 this should maybe at least be consistent 03:24:37 Yes, inconsistency is not great, but if it's one way or the other, I don't see why melding should block this 03:25:05 Since there is no balance change either way, yet blocking it creates minor interface annoyance 03:25:19 this was to fix this bug: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6841 03:25:28 -!- InternetKraken has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:25:28 -!- raskol has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:25:33 but the interface change i made fixes another bug or two as well 03:25:48 Yes, I skimmed the original conversation 03:26:05 you can't interact with melded items in any way, so I think scrolls shouldn't either 03:26:15 galehar: that was my thinking 03:26:36 it's not like it's really creating any significant annoyance 03:26:47 No, it doesn't matter highly either way 03:27:03 so better consistency is better 03:27:37 DracoOmega: there's a thread on the tavern about the new Beogh recall: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7461 03:27:52 the inventory change makes it impossible to use items that aren't in the menu 03:28:01 but with specific exceptions for throwing, wielding, and jelly eating 03:28:17 ... i'm wondering if there are any other exceptions i could have missed 03:29:18 galehar: I am too close to going to bed now to give this the attention and articulation it deserves 03:30:18 I do see your point about it being annoying to have a bazillion orcs recalled, though it's true that most of them will die fairly quickly anyway. On the flipside, having to 'recall, wait, recall, wait, recall, wait' to get more if you do want them also sounds potentially a little annoying. There may be no completely good solution though 03:32:54 we could have the cap without the cooldown 03:33:10 but I think the cooldown helps balancing the ability a bi 03:33:18 Well, I wasn't even talking about adding a cooldown 03:33:22 Recall itself takes time 03:33:27 the fact that it makes shafts significantly less threatening is a shame 03:33:37 So you start it, wait for it to finish, then start it again, etc. 03:34:33 it's ok for some gods to make shafts less threatening, ashenzari makes _all_ traps less threatening 03:35:07 the point is it was more threatening for beogh/yred 03:35:13 and now it isn't 03:35:13 mumra: sure, but maybe it could be tone down 03:35:33 wait, pretend i didn't mention traps ;) 03:35:38 I don't think having to wait between recall would be annoying. You rarely need more than 1 squad, and never more than 2 03:36:13 Perhaps, but I think some people like the whole horde idea anyway :P 03:36:22 It's not like most of those plain orcs are USEFUL except for flavor purposes, anyway 03:37:01 One possible issue with staggering recall into clumps is that it would be unclear when you had actually called all of what you had available 03:37:06 Like, currently when it stops, that's it 03:37:42 But recall will still start and process with stuff around you, whether there is more further away or not 03:38:45 would it really be an issue? 03:39:02 if you can't even tell how many orcs you have recalled, do you really need to recall more? 03:39:41 Well, I wonder sometimes if it would be obvious if new orcs are arriving, or if it's mostly shuffling around existing orcs 03:39:51 At least some of that is tweakable anyway 03:39:53 plain orcs are more useful if you can recall them when you need them rather than have them in your way and fill the screen 03:40:20 Yes, probably 03:40:40 Though for sake of argument, I know a friend of mine that I expect would be bitterly disappointed not to be able to fill the screen with cannon fodder :P 03:41:46 well he would be able, it would just take a little bit more time 03:42:30 Yes, I suppose 03:42:59 Probably I personally would prefer travelling with a smaller force anyway 03:43:03 It's easier to keep track of them 03:44:13 ok, have to go. Let me know if you plan to code the limit 03:45:17 Well, I think there are some potential logistical snarls that may take trial and error to get right, but I'm not opposed to experimenting a little 03:46:10 Like, I can see it maybe being a little tricky to tell when it's supposed to call in a second squad as opposed to move the first one closer (if some are perhaps scattered just a little). Or possibly do a little of both 03:52:32 -!- BloodDrum has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:55:00 This is where it would be nice if the game could magically determine player INTENT :P 03:55:27 "Did you want to call in more troops, or just relocate the stragglers from the current squad front and center?" 03:56:03 -!- dcssrubot330 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:57:55 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D] 03:59:45 back 03:59:51 yes, true 04:00:29 one fix would be to have 2 recall abilities. One for interlevel recall and one for local recall. 04:00:53 It's a bit ugly to need 2 abilities, but maybe for the best 04:01:42 Well, it is good in many cases that they combine themselves, really 04:02:03 So that you can recall nearby troops and further ones at the same time, even if there was a limit of 12 (since some may be on the last floor, while others came with you) 04:03:09 -!- Havvy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:22 Possibly there might be some better way to seperate these two aims, though 04:04:41 -!- faz_ has quit [] 04:06:12 I think it's worth keeping one ability and capping it. 04:07:23 the cases when it's hard to decide if we recall on-level or off-level are when there's already a lot of orcs around and the situation is already confused 04:07:54 Well, I mean that currently it interleves those two things. It doesn't do on-level followed by off-level 04:08:30 But runs through your followers in slightly randomized order of HD and calls each one in turn from wherever it happens to be 04:08:31 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:15:02 is it really useful to recall an orc which is at the edge of your LOS? Do we need to keep that? 04:16:44 Well, I added it in specifically in response to elliptic's comments on his experience playing a death knight 04:17:00 In that he often found himself trying to break LoS with his stuff so that he could recall it better 04:17:06 Which seems bad 04:17:28 In practice, this comes up quite a lot, I think, since your army (even a small one) is really good at falling behind and bad at keeping up 04:18:16 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:06 -!- syraine_ is now known as syraine 04:19:35 galehar: well, you can merge a branch in as many times as you wish :p 04:21:12 03galehar 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3149-g276f637: Wizard hats (and other items with a sub_type of 9) are inedible. 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=276f637ca874 04:21:12 03galehar 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3150-g6600657: Show pies in the eat menu. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6600657d8052 04:22:12 wtf? 04:24:40 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:26:17 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:27:20 my only question 04:27:22 is 04:27:34 why do we have no warwick von hugsford 04:31:51 DracoOmega: about your army keeping up with you, I thought of a better fix than travel/explore waiting for them if they are too far 04:32:22 Add a toggle (ctrl+w) to set your travel/explore speed to the speed of your slowest ally 04:33:07 Their speed is not the issue 04:33:12 Speed 10 allies fall far behind all the time 04:33:44 For various reasons (including energy randomization causing pileups that push further and further back) 04:36:45 Anyway, I am nearly falling asleep in my chair here, so I must go. Goodnight! 04:36:52 'night 04:37:05 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:57:16 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:57:18 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Client Quit] 05:12:31 -!- aditya has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 05:12:37 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 05:19:09 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:21:20 -!- Wehk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:39 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:06 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 05:46:31 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:47 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:50:55 -!- Elynae has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:54:26 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:02:16 03dolorous 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3151-gd5bcb09: Fix a missing base_type check for edible pies. 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d5bcb0964135 06:02:16 03dolorous 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3152-g1eb2df6: Fix spacing. 10(16 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1eb2df66761a 06:02:16 03dolorous 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3153-g99e5230: Remove unneeded brackets. 10(15 minutes ago, 2 files, 0+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=99e5230545cf 06:05:28 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:06 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:22:30 03dolorous 07[jester] * 0.12-a0-3154-gaeeb209: Allow specifying pies in firing order. 10(6 minutes ago, 3 files, 4+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=aeeb2098c781 06:24:23 -!- Wester has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:42 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:08 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:31:40 -!- dcssrubot867 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:36:29 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:54 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 06:39:56 -!- G-Flex has quit [] 06:46:43 -!- sbanwart_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:58:07 -!- Wehk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:58:24 -!- Wehk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:44 -!- Elkan has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:15:11 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:20:43 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 07:38:10 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:44:26 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:53:28 Butchering with cursed morningstar by chamiso 07:55:16 -!- Zifmia has quit [] 07:56:52 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:01:46 -!- dcssrubot73 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:53 -!- dagonfive1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:14:58 -!- Zermako has quit [] 08:16:26 -!- Zifmia has quit [Quit: Wrong button bad with computers] 08:17:45 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:25:33 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:39:21 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 08:42:06 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:44:25 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:04 -!- netmonmatt has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:08:47 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:10:38 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 09:13:22 -!- morik has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:13:23 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:08 -!- oxeimon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:18:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:18:36 hopefully witha more stable connection 09:19:34 -!- Kintak has quit [Quit: Kintak] 09:30:25 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:32:28 -!- dcssrubot397 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:28 -!- dcssrubot17 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:49:06 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:42 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 09:54:13 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:03:53 -!- Foom_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:05:22 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:53 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:10:53 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:09 -!- morik has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:23:27 -!- Killerpretzel has quit [] 10:23:53 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:24:37 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:56 phyphor (L11 HOBe) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1185 failed. (D (Sprint)) 10:27:43 I have no idea how I did that 10:27:54 and, being sprint, there was no save :( 10:31:45 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:16 <|amethyst> maybe sprint and zotdef should autosave on occasion 10:33:38 <|amethyst> or does zotdef do that already on runes or boss waves or something? 10:33:38 i think zotdef already does 10:33:42 something like that, yeah 10:34:02 would definitely be good for some of the longer sprints i guess 10:45:17 zig sprint save on teleport would seem sensible 10:45:19 but I don't know how feasible this is 10:45:27 darts (L13 HuIE) ASSERT(feat > DNGN_UNSEEN) in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 583 failed. (Abyss:1) 10:49:08 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:55:19 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:57:13 -!- gluup_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:57:13 -!- gluop has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:01:06 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:02:35 -!- dcssrubot802 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:03:13 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:14 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 11:09:13 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14:44 okay, why the heck does intel document CMPS as taking operands when it always uses ds:[re]?si and es:[re]?di ... 11:15:26 <|amethyst> SamB: probably to specify the word size 11:15:40 <|amethyst> SamB: cmpsb cmpsw and cmpsd don't take arguments 11:16:37 well, yes, that obviously needs specifying 11:16:41 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:17:16 <|amethyst> the real question is why "cmps" is a mnemonic at all.... 11:18:27 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:39 !tell galehar Wow. I made wizard hats edible. ha! 11:18:39 bh: OK, I'll let galehar know. 11:19:03 <|amethyst> bh: I guess you'll have to 11:19:14 <|amethyst> (well, you can guess the rest) 11:19:29 ? is that a reference to They Live? 11:19:33 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:19:42 <|amethyst> no, just CSI: Miami 11:19:50 <|amethyst> the rest being "Eat your hat" 11:20:07 ah 11:20:20 |amethyst: but, yeah, I don't get why that mnemonic should exist, or why the docs for REP mention it instead of the others 11:23:25 |amethyst: with the level of complexity going into jesters, maybe we should give them a chaos branded sceptre 11:23:28 ??quarterstaff 11:23:28 quarterstaff[1/1]: A fast and accurate stick that you hit things with. Damage: 10. Accuracy: 3. Delay: 13. Double handed. If you use a quarterstaff with a shield, the base damage is halved. Though anyone with a hand-and-a-half weapon, no shield, and unarmed skill can still punch, quarterstaves allow it even if you're a spriggan (for whom QS are two-handed). 11:23:29 ??club 11:23:30 club[1/2]: A heavy piece of wood that falls into the Maces & Flails category. Damage: 5. Accuracy: +3. Delay: 13. Can be thrown, usually at you. 11:24:28 this is the second time that gloorx's vault has generated without an entrance 11:24:59 seems to be some vault placement screwiness in general with trunk 11:26:43 eeviac: only with trunk? 11:26:55 well trunk is all I play 11:27:02 so maybenot just trunk 11:27:16 I thought as much 11:30:55 -!- dcssrubot165 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:31:16 I believe mumra hopes to improve such things in the future, but probably not until after 0.12 ... 11:31:47 !tell ontoclasm The jester tiles look so good! 11:31:48 bh: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 11:35:48 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:37 hm. I'm 2500 turns in and xom hasn't wrathed me yet 11:43:37 -!- oxeimon1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:45:55 bh: wrath is every 2000 turns on average 11:46:07 elliptic: ah. I thought it was every 1k 11:47:01 every 20 turns there is a 1% chance of wrath happening, and wrath happening lowers penance by 1d3 11:48:38 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:49:53 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 11:51:24 bh: hats weren't really edible, there's a second check later. You just didn't get the "You can't eat that!" message 11:51:24 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 11:51:37 ah 11:51:54 -!- antlions has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:21 03galehar 07* 0.12-a0-3177-g8b2b6b6: Disable energy randomization for allies following the player. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8b2b6b6a4238 11:58:12 how does ai pathfinding work? 11:59:12 bh: are you *sure* you want to look into that? 11:59:38 SamB: no. I'm just curious 12:00:09 <|amethyst> I'm not sure who knows that code well 12:00:18 <|amethyst> maybe no one active 12:00:38 I do, I tweaked it to support pathfinding for clinging monsters 12:00:48 <|amethyst> ah, good 12:01:40 it works by filling a grid with the distance from the source 12:02:01 yes, it does do that 12:02:53 I'd like to add support for damage taken so that monsters could pathfind around clouds and traps 12:03:00 galehar: do actors obscure the propagation? 12:03:02 someday 12:03:25 bh: don't remember 12:03:26 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11.2-11-g28dacbe 12:03:57 bh: plants, yes; others, I don't remember 12:04:23 also, note that pathfinding happens under very specific circumstances: like seeing the target but not being able to walk straight to it 12:04:45 mhmm. I have fond memories of trapping ogres on the other side of conjure flame in open rooms 12:05:24 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:05:45 there is code in monster movement to allow them to sidestep small obstacles, but it works only in very simple cases. It doesn't use pathfinding 12:06:13 I think I made it so that monsters won't do full pathfinding for further than about 2x as long as the radius they're willing to pathfind within 12:07:50 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.12-a0-3177-g8b2b6b6 (34) 12:13:01 eeviac: yeah there do seem to be a lot of vault placement issues lately. it might just be because there are a lot more vaults esp. serial vaults so things get screwed up more often 12:14:00 is it intentional that you can butcher with blunt distortion/vampiric weapons now? i don't recall any discussion about changing that, at least 12:14:49 since it's a fairly notable feature of the brands 12:16:50 -!- Zermako has quit [] 12:17:34 MarvinPA: definitely not. 12:17:44 This came up when I removed blunt vampiric weapons. 12:17:58 %s/removed/tried to remove/g 12:20:40 it looks like it's a side-effect of 8b2b6b6a42 and cbfd86e1f2, not sure what the aim is but it also allows butchering with a cursed blunt weapon 12:21:07 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:16 eeviac: yeah there do seem to be a lot of vault placement issues lately. it might just be because there are a lot more vaults esp. serial vaults so things get screwed up more often 12:21:30 dunno about this, personally i think there are more reports of this than there used to be 12:21:36 MarvinPA: isn't it a side-effect of 206c400a8949167d0be21d7d121b5b572aeeee03? 12:21:52 and I can't recall ever having the serious issues people have reported lately 12:22:05 oh yeah i copied the wrong commit id 12:22:11 MarvinPA: 8b2b6b6a42 is... yeah :P 12:22:11 that's the one i meant 12:22:14 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 12:22:35 cbfd86e1f2ff9a32a752df0ee7c5f7c95d3cc700 just looks like a simplification, 206c400a8949167d0be21d7d121b5b572aeeee03 looks like the one causing the behaviour change 12:22:56 (I like blunt weapons being unique here, personally, although I find some of the butchery logic pedantic in general) 12:24:21 evilmike: there are definitely more reports; i'm just saying that the existing of more vaults is one thing that could cause this 12:24:39 (i.e. cause more disconnects and other weirdness) 12:24:43 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:24:49 <|amethyst> I thought it was *supposed to* allow butchering with a 1H uncursed blunt weapon 12:24:59 its possible, i'm just a bit skeptical... every version has more vaults 12:25:07 it's also possible that vault code has somehow become broken 12:25:29 |amethyst: that already worked, surely, by the general "if you have an unwieldable weapon that can't butcher, it gets unwielded to use your knife" thing? 12:25:56 i think it _may_ use some of the pathfinding code or at least related stuff to determine connectivity - so changes to pathfinding could perhaps have affected things ... 12:26:07 but in general nobody ever touches the vault code so it'd be hard for it to break 12:26:08 <|amethyst> elliott: As I understood it, this was supposed to let you butcher with your off-hand 12:26:44 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3156-g0a2a3a2: More primitive functions (and fixes) 10(8 hours ago, 3 files, 41+ 15-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0a2a3a26faff 12:26:44 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3157-g027b05e: Add more functions to layout_hall_layers 10(8 hours ago, 1 file, 52+ 18-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=027b05e2a46b 12:26:44 03mumra 07[new-layouts] * 0.12-a0-3158-g99b6071: Lower numerous standard layout weights for testing 10(8 hours ago, 2 files, 12+ 12-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=99b6071f241a 12:26:48 <|amethyst> hm 12:26:52 so you can butcher with a blunt weapon you can't unwield as long as it's only one-handed? 12:26:55 <|amethyst> maybe I'm misremembering something 12:27:12 that might be realistic but seems intensely overcomplex/unobvious, personally :P 12:27:20 oh, and you're not wearing a shield, I guess 12:27:24 well if the intention is for 2H cursed/blunt/vampiric weapons to be the only case where you can't butcher, that seems not at all worth keeping 12:27:29 and you should just be able to butcher always 12:28:06 <|amethyst> + bool knife_butcher = ((!you.weapon() 12:28:06 <|amethyst> + || you.has_usable_offhand() 12:28:06 <|amethyst> + || you.has_usable_tentacle()) 12:28:07 if mine/|amethyst's understanding is right, unless there's some kind of regression I was missing (maybe caused by the cleanup commit?) I think I prefer the previous behaviour a lot 12:28:19 <|amethyst> Maybe that wasn't *intentional* 12:28:32 'eh. That seem unnecessarily complex 12:28:45 <|amethyst> I thought I saw the mention of "offhand" in a commit message, but no, it was when I was browsing the code 12:29:03 <|amethyst> so that doesn't speak to intent 12:29:11 <|amethyst> perhaps SamB (or Tene) can comment 12:29:17 I'd be onboard with letting octopodes butcher, but the 1H, 2H distinction is getting a bit involved. I don't see the value of complexity for the sake of making cursed blunt weapons better 12:30:02 right (i don't think the octopode special-case is particularly worthwhile either personally) 12:30:32 <|amethyst> I wouldn't be able to field-dress a human with my left hand, anyway 12:34:25 Does anyone else have an opinion on using scrolls on melded equipment? Views seem divided 12:34:54 current situation is you can identify melded gear but you can't enchant it 12:35:16 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:54 vorpalise is the only one that seems sort of weird to allow, to me 12:37:15 there's an interface problem that an unid'd scroll allows you to select a melded slot but you're likely to waste the scroll if it's of certain types (and it won't get identified) 12:37:43 so to solve that issue it seems best to make all scrolls consistent? 12:37:55 well, vorpalise doesn't allow selection 12:38:01 right, i guess vorpalise works differently to the others anyway 12:38:05 true 12:38:11 MarvinPA: well, there's enchant weapon too 12:38:20 but honestly melding weapons is so rare that it doesn't matter at all what you do there, I think :P 12:38:20 fr allow vorpal/ew to select things 12:38:34 wait 12:38:36 no 12:38:37 didn't vorpal used to allow selection or am i misremembering 12:38:38 don't allow that 12:38:43 i don't think it did 12:38:47 ok 12:38:47 I don't want to complicate the id game 12:38:58 currently also you can recharge a melded rod 12:39:16 anyway basically any fix seems fine to me since i think you said either way it'll address the problem of wasting id'd scrolls? 12:39:17 unless in addition to allowing targetted vorpal/ew, we auto id all scrolls when they are read 12:39:43 MarvinPA: yes either always allowing it or always disallowing (i wrote a fix that did the latter) 12:39:59 but it would be easy to change it to permissive instead 12:40:05 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 12:46:48 I vote for always disallow. You can't interact with melded stuff, not sure why scrolls would be the exception. 12:47:41 regarding butchering, I think someone brought the fact that Octopode should be allowed to butcher even with curse/disto etc. He was answered that special casing Octo wasn't good. 12:47:59 I don't like the new behaviour 12:48:08 I'd rather revert it 12:48:12 -!- SamB_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:34 yeah 12:50:53 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:51:06 SamB_: did you want to let anyone butcher with anything? 12:51:31 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:54:53 alefury: hmm? 12:55:15 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6842 12:55:31 <|amethyst> SamB_: in particular, is it intentional that you can butcher with a cursed whip (or other 1H blunt weapon) 12:55:56 * elliott thinks disto/vamp matter more than cursed there 12:56:01 correct butchering behavior is that everyone can always butcher IMO 12:56:10 |amethyst: that was the idea, yeah 12:56:17 we figure they use their feet or sometihng 12:56:29 elliptic: thats the current behavior, except for some forms 12:56:30 obviously people's hands aren't really stuck to the great mace or whatever 12:56:39 if so, they wouldn't be able to drink potions 12:56:42 etc 12:56:45 alefury: no it isn't 12:56:59 current behavior is you need a free hand 12:57:05 it isnt? it certainly looks like that in the code 12:57:09 <|amethyst> alefury: you can't butcher with a cursed blunt 2H weapon, or a cursed blunt weapon and a cursed shield 12:57:16 elliptic: I changed that last night 12:57:21 <|amethyst> oh 12:57:35 <|amethyst> I see 12:57:41 <|amethyst> bool knife_butcher = !weapon_butcher && form_can_wield(); 12:57:48 oh, I missed that commit 12:57:51 in that case what is the issue? 12:58:03 a few people were surprised 12:58:58 now I seem to recall that we might want to change form_can_wield() to form_can_wield() || 12:59:20 -!- dcssrubot961 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:36 oh okay, i thought the current state was that 2h cursed blunt stuff couldn't butcher 12:59:41 <|amethyst> SamB_: I think that would be too unobvious 13:00:29 |amethyst: I don't see much point in forcing spider form players to end transformation to butcher 13:00:44 is it at all relevant for gameplay (after samb's change) that some forms cant butcher btw? or is it now purely for flavor? 13:01:03 elliptic: spiders have fangs. Why not let them suck blood? 13:01:06 <|amethyst> elliptic: Then I don't think there's much points in preventing /polymorph victims from butcherring either 13:01:11 <|amethyst> s/points/point/ 13:01:17 bh: sucking blood doesnt create chunks, usually 13:01:28 |amethyst: right, the only reason for that was that there were some concerns about wispform butchering and such 13:01:29 alefury: sure, but it gives nutrition 13:01:31 alefury: I guess I could take that part out to 13:01:44 bh: yes, but butchering makes chunks 13:02:10 spiders thematically ought to just paralyze their prey and encase it in spidersilk 13:02:39 anyway, if this change stays, then it would make more sense to just do away with all the butchering logic and let anyone butcher all the time 13:02:44 so if everyone can butcher now, what about the code to unwield the weapon and use the knife? is that just dead now? 13:02:55 elliott: yes, it's dead now 13:02:57 I guess spider form is low enough duration that the butchering thing is not a big deal really 13:02:58 similarly the rc option for whether to prompt to switch back, etc... and the ash vaults with animate skeleton books 13:03:05 well, modulo bugs 13:03:18 and it still checks for things like talons too right? can that have any effect at all? 13:03:35 and I think all other player-cast forms can butcher? 13:04:40 elliptic: mostly just text 13:04:44 er. elliptic 13:04:48 gah gah gah 13:04:51 third time lucky 13:04:52 elliott: 13:04:52 haha 13:05:21 but yeah, the animate skeleton ash altar should go now 13:06:26 elliott: anyway, last time I tried to remove that pile of junk I somehow made butchering fail silently 13:06:41 (the part that would do unwields and so on) 13:07:14 well, it could just skip unwields entirely now, right? 13:07:33 yes, and ungloving 13:07:43 I mean I must have taken out a wee bit much code 13:07:56 personally I liked disto/vamp/ash blunt weapons having a drawback and the interaction of e.g. whether you could animate skeleton (good gods, etc.) or not, but eh 13:08:03 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:08:11 because it just didn't seem to work *at all* anymore 13:08:37 also I'm pretty sure there was a ton of that cruft left that I hadn't found yet 13:08:46 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Changing host] 13:08:49 elliott: vamp/ash chars are not known for worshipping a good god :P 13:09:17 it is a nice feature but i think probably the interface improvement is worth losing it in the long run 13:09:31 personally I never liked the "animate skeleton is a food preparation spell" bit 13:09:32 elliptic: yes those were separate :P 13:09:33 not being able to butcher isn't the most interesting drawback really 13:09:36 elliptic: but I missed one: contam 13:09:41 because the focus should be on getting a skeleton 13:09:49 -!- newbQ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:09:54 and yeah the animate skeleton thing is weird and i will be glad to see that ash vault go 13:09:56 not on getting food 13:10:07 (I am reminded of the coolrobin oghe which got a good artefact gsc with contam but had to make the choice of whether to abandon ely to use it, because it would need animate skeleton to butcher with it) 13:10:09 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:10:44 clearly should have renamed animate skeleton to butcher, remove the skeletons, and say it's necromancy for the same reason as regeneration :P 13:12:19 add butchery skill 13:12:24 there is a vault that gives some silly names to books of animate skeleton 13:12:57 everybody starts with 28 butchering 13:13:06 -!- Elkan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:13:06 elliptic: no, cooking skill 13:13:10 no reskilling 13:13:19 elliptic: some races can only eat cooked meat, of course 13:13:26 IMO change the spriggan baker vault to sometimes be a spriggan skeleton cook, with that book and meat rations 13:13:27 and there's a spell to do it for you but it relies on darke magickes 13:14:27 elliptic: he's an ash fan? 13:14:52 so, who implemented that thing where [he]xchat always completes to the wrong one of elliott/elliptic ? 13:15:09 elliott did I think 13:15:23 definitely elliott :P 13:15:56 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 13:16:08 it was elliptic actually 13:17:33 hmm, if I restart X before PuTTY forwards anything its way, will PuTTY's X forwarding break ... 13:19:46 -!- hurdos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:20:38 -!- DasRunzen has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:26:32 -!- Elynae has quit [Client Quit] 13:32:53 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:31 ridiculously small levels in Orc by KiloByte 13:38:57 -!- Elkan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:39:19 -!- madreisz has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:43:05 SamB_: you probably have it set up so it tab completes to who talked recently rather than fixed alphabetical order, i never have issues (unless the recent Ellick who joins ##crawl is there) 13:43:19 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:03 elliptic: can you say something? :) 13:44:36 -!- chaingun has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:41 you know, i seem to remember this was why galefury changed his nick ... 13:45:53 mumra: I thought that galehar just divided himself into two parts??! 13:46:22 g-ale-har? gal-eh-ar? 13:46:40 alefury = galefury 13:46:48 * bh knows 13:47:01 ah 13:47:11 I agree, elliptic should change his nick 13:47:18 but no, he's not a slime creature ;) 13:47:24 galefury -- something to do with wind, alefury -- something to do with drinking :) 13:54:19 -!- oxeimon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55:01 <|amethyst> bh: galehar = (raphael langella)^T - allen lap 13:55:22 bh: hi 13:55:33 elliptic: simmarine's hypothesis is right! 13:57:23 elliott/elliptic is a minor issue; I tend to use tab to check for people who tend to be not connected all the time. And there, bhaak causes the obvious problem. 13:57:31 its under "Nick completion sorted", under input box if you want to change it 14:00:22 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:05:41 -!- Ellick has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:05:51 -!- clinew has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:11:33 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:20:21 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:23 -!- blackcustard has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:52 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:28:53 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:26 -!- dcssrubot916 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:56 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:34:06 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:58 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:38:18 kilobyte: is there a bit we could use for "have IDed base jewelry type" on artefact jewelry? 14:38:44 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:42:22 -!- InternetKraken has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:45:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46:17 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 14:46:53 * SamB_ would really like to whip #1083 14:49:14 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:49:33 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: absolutego] 14:52:23 -!- ryansee has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:52:29 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:52:35 -!- Fhqwhgads___ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 14:53:32 hmm, logically that should be ISFLAG_KNOW_TYPE 14:53:46 kilobyte: ISFLAG_KNOW_TYPE isn't currently used on artefact jewellery, is it? 14:55:01 I'm afraid I don't know, and often get this one wrong 14:55:26 -!- partyhat has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:45 -!- Fhqwhgads__ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:59:22 so, how do we define "too small a level" for orc / slime (and this is a useful metric for generators elsewhere too) 14:59:52 mumra: there's env.density 14:59:59 probably calculated too late, though 15:00:17 the number of passable squares on the level 15:01:42 i can add an lua hook to get that value though 15:05:19 but i'm wondering how many passable squares is enough? your example (and the one i took from oldorc) had around 400-500 open squares 15:05:36 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:05:47 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 15:06:39 were these two about as big? It seemed to me like the one on the right was about twice as big. 15:07:14 it might have been the border length though, it messes with visual comparisons 15:07:33 that's the problem, and of course levels can seem bigger if they have dense passages and so on 15:08:02 are you sure you meant the one on the right? i'd have thought the left-hand one would look bigger (but it only really has fractionally more squares) 15:08:12 hang on, i can count this accurately 15:08:53 it dprf()s env.density in debug mode 15:10:36 ... on level creation only 15:11:53 kilobyte: ok the numbers were much lower than those estimates. oldorc:320. neworc: 230 15:13:18 an automated test: debuglog("%d\n", env.density); in the place it's calculated, then --mapstat Orc:1 15:14:48 neworc in 150 maps had only one density 422, then everything >= 440 15:15:03 looks like my level was pretty exceptional 15:15:29 yep it was an extreme case, all the stairs near each other and very little growth 15:15:45 no, another 150 produced three 3??, one 281 15:15:55 3!!? 15:16:26 isn't that like a single LOS worth? 15:16:28 oh right you mean 300+, not 3 15:16:37 heh 15:18:54 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:19:36 oldorc: one 545, all others >= 700 15:19:46 hmm 15:19:54 my 320 on oldorc was a fluke then 15:20:12 i certainly didn't regenerate anything like 150 times to get that 15:20:28 another run: 550, 3 600 >= x > 700 15:21:25 hmm, what do you use for statistical analysis this millenium? 15:21:57 well, it's definitely not surprising; there are less bubbles (density isn't taking into account that some of those bubbles could be inaccessible of course) 15:22:40 would you say 500 is a good minimum then? 15:23:16 all bubbles had at least an entrance, the problem was two bubbles leading to one another without connectivity to the outside world 15:23:39 Vapours almost never fire by minmay 15:23:40 yep, so density will assume they are connected, but they might only be reachable with digging/tele 15:23:56 or Orc:1 bubbles leading out of the branch -- branch stairs count as two-way even if only the first one truly is 15:24:25 not only density, monster generation too 15:24:26 (i should finish that single-branch-stair patch) 15:25:22 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:27:39 Tomb? 15:27:47 oh wait, these are inner stairs 15:27:57 * kilobyte <- idiot 15:29:07 I can't think of a way this would hurt, at most some vaults, mostly Temple, would need edits 15:29:51 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:25 -!- Soundlust has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31:50 -!- lurkerguest has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:34:38 -!- chaingun has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:36:12 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: absolutego] 15:39:17 -!- chaingun has quit [Changing host] 15:42:48 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:43:23 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:48:45 -!- chaingun has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:49:59 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:53:20 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:57:55 -!- Sepik121 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:57:57 -!- blysik has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:59:32 -!- dcssrubot369 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:34 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:59:36 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 16:01:50 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:10:01 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:16 the only reason i didn't push it is because people raised concerns about vaults 16:10:45 -!- dcssrubot840 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:11:37 but i struggle to imagine a vault that actually relies on having more than one upstair 16:12:05 -!- [1]capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 16:12:11 so it might be better to just veto small Orcs and push that change tomorrow evening 16:12:18 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:12:22 -!- [1]capablanca is now known as mikee_ 16:12:49 ie, as commit 0.13-a0-1 16:14:34 -!- capablanca has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:16:55 -!- CrazyArbalest has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:17:16 ok 16:18:11 kilobyte: do you have any opinion on this using-scrolls-on-melded-gear thing (should i wait for .13 for that as well anyway) 16:18:49 mumra: I personally don't see any good reason to make IDing those scrolls harder than it is already 16:18:53 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:06 at the very least we could keep current behaviour and fix melded things being offered as targets for now, since that's a clear bug 16:19:08 or, well, than it would be without melding 16:19:28 but yeah i don't see that it needs to wait particularly 16:19:29 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:19:36 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 16:19:55 also i was fixing this okawaru arena vault that traps players, and apparently it also crashes if you get a monster to pick up the reward 16:20:32 i don't suppose anyone with better lua-fu than me could take a look at it? it looks like the way it decides which squares to turn into lava when loot is picked up is based on the player's location 16:21:01 so if you're not on top of either piece of loot bad stuff happens? although i don't think it crashes if you apport the loot so maybe it's not that 16:21:37 (the vault is okawaru_arena_lexackson) 16:22:24 MarvinPA: melded things are only offered as targets if you haven't id'd the scroll. since it could be an id scroll itself and therefore melded gear would be valid targets ... 16:22:44 oh i see, i've been completely misunderstanding all along then :P 16:22:46 mumra: so ID works on melded stuff but other things don't? 16:22:54 so the only way to fix the bug is to make it consistent for all scrolls 16:22:57 i thought ?ea and such was offering melded gear as a target even when identified 16:23:05 SamB_: yeah. recharge works on melded rods too. 16:23:11 but you can't enchant melded armour 16:23:36 MarvinPA: no, once the scroll is identified the targets are correct 16:23:39 since you can't drop them, etc, it sounds simplest if none if these worked 16:23:52 but you could waste an ?ea if it wasn't id'd by using it on a melded armour 16:24:00 I don't see how it's simpler to change it in 3 places 16:24:27 SamB_: making it possible to drop or take off melded stuff would be quite hard 16:24:41 what? did anyone suggest that? 16:24:52 -!- newbQ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:25:23 I mean, if these items are considered to be magically gone, then everything should work the same 16:25:39 I thought melded meant they were magically stuck to you 16:25:47 that's cursed 16:26:02 ... a temporary way ... 16:26:04 (yeah, the wizard that did it was pretty unhinged... :( ) 16:26:08 kilobyte: that's what i think certainly, the interface is generally very consistent in not letting you do anything to or with melded items 16:26:10 ... that isn't harmful 16:26:36 SamB_: if melded things were just stuck to you then their properties wouldn't disappear 16:26:49 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:26:51 melded means "it has completely transmuted into part of your new form" 16:26:58 i.e. it's part of your new body 16:27:08 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:27:09 if you're going to make un-IDed item-asking scrolls filter the menu, might as well also filter it to the union of what the IDed scrolls would filter it to 16:27:20 wait 16:27:38 I mean, filter it to the union of what the as-yet un-IDed scrolls would accept once IDed 16:28:13 aside from realism concerns it's seriously annoying to know that identifying scrolls will be annoying as tm because you have to remember to exit forms each time 16:28:17 SamB_: i guess, eliminate food and stuff that you'd never use a scroll on 16:28:42 and there's that, too :-( 16:28:43 and I guarantee there will be lots of confusion about why people can't identify a scroll, not realising their form would be relevant... 16:29:12 -!- blysik has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:34 +1 to the union 16:29:50 it shows just everything currently, right? 16:29:59 yes 16:30:02 do we want an "are you sure you want to read-ID that scroll with shit melded?" prompt? 16:30:13 SamB_: why? 16:30:48 because it will be strictly worse to do so 16:30:56 you'll always want to exit forms before read-iding 16:31:00 SamB_: not different from wasting an enchant weapon because you had nothing in your hands 16:31:11 hmm 16:31:24 it's definitely simpler code and interface wise if you _can_ use all scrolls on melded gear. but it's inconsistent with how melded stuff works in all other situations. 16:31:32 except it's more annoying because you realize it before the scroll is technically wasted :-( 16:32:11 i really don't see how the inconsistency matters at all compared to the complexity of filtering the list and fact that it makes scroll id more annoying/unintuitive... especially for such a trivial problem 16:32:18 elliott: if you're read-iding in an emergency you might not want to spend a turn changing form 16:32:29 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:32:47 gameplay wise, I see no big difference between scrolls working on melded vs not working on melded (as long as it's consistent), there's an argument from realism vs wearing/properties working 16:33:00 elliott: it's not really complex to filter the list, i already did it (well, apart from the union thing, which should be done regardless, and that's not hard either) 16:33:09 I don't really see what is inconsistent about scrolls working on melded armour 16:33:14 how about we just do it the simpler way? 16:33:21 I'm a fan of simpler code and UI 16:33:44 (though I'd still like that union thing even though that's more complicated in some senses ...) 16:34:02 like, what is it inconsistent with precisely? 16:34:06 the union can be done anyway, i've already been in the inventory code, it's not hard hard to do 16:34:17 the emergency read-id thing is a silly argument, nobody is ever going to decide not to emergency read for teleport because it might waste enchant armour 16:34:17 and the gameplay seems clearly better to me if scrolls work on melded 16:34:26 Slaves does not become free people by adamo901 16:35:10 scrolls not working on melded armour just means that very occasionally you lose one point of AC to forgetting you are in spider form still 16:35:12 that's all 16:36:44 -!- Guest_____ has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:07 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 16:37:10 hmm, why does acquirement, when giving a GSC, have a comment that says "guarantee artefact status" but then go and give a 1/25 chance of giving you the mundane version? 16:37:47 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 16:38:00 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 16:38:34 it's a crawl guarantee 16:38:54 (i have no idea) 16:39:03 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:58 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:41:25 do we really want acquirement handing out plain GSCs? 16:43:22 it can give plain weapons of other types 16:43:49 well then I guess somebody needs to rewrite that comment 16:44:20 not sure which code paths are banned from giving no brand, and which not 16:46:28 oh, sorry, not just the spiked ones 16:52:47 MarvinPA (L1 HuCj) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1791 failed. (D:1) 16:52:56 !lm . crash -log 16:53:00 42. MarvinPA, XL1 HuCj, T:20 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/MarvinPA/crash-MarvinPA-20130330-215245.txt 16:53:03 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:16 SamB_: if you have a preference either way, I'd just do whatever you think is best 16:53:39 it's not like anyone cares about 1/25 chance; lots of acquirements are dud already 16:53:44 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:48 * SamB_ supposes he could blame it to see if there's any justification in the commit message .. 16:54:12 hm so i guess this okawaru arena crash is the monster trying to put on the item it just picked up when it's just been incinerated by lava? 16:54:41 MarvinPA: which, the monster or the item? 16:55:02 both i guess :P 16:55:20 so the monster has been incinerated but is trying to do stuff? 16:55:32 You see here a glowing spear. You hear a sizzling splash. 16:55:32 Your orc falls into the lava! Your orc is incinerated. You hear a sizzling splash. 16:55:48 that's me swapping places with the orc, the orc stepping onto the square with the spear 16:56:00 SamB_: 7e99e3c55 16:56:08 then i guess the orc picking up the spear triggers the lava? and the lava incinerates the spear before it gets picked up somehow 16:56:14 and then the lava incinerates the orc and then crash 16:57:06 kilobyte: okay, so the comment has *always* been wrong 16:57:32 and sorear is to blame 16:57:47 and I haven't seen him in aaages 16:58:42 sorear is in crawl-offtopic 16:59:24 * SamB_ remembers him from #haskell but hasn't been doing Haskell lately ... 16:59:44 Monsters picking up loot in okawaru_arena vault causes crash by MarvinPA 17:00:27 DON'T go to crawl-offtopic. Both times I joined that channel, they were talking about voluntary penis mutilation, or something of that kind. 17:00:44 you mean circumcision? 17:00:50 worse 17:00:57 that's not normally voluntary? 17:01:46 fine, I'll go with MarvinPA's explanation: it's a crawl guarentee ... 17:02:29 IIRC embedding rings or studs; anyway, I can stand most of /b/ but these guys manage to squick me 17:17:38 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:30 embedding rings, is that a bit like melding jewellery? 17:19:00 * kilobyte cries. 17:19:04 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 17:19:10 probably a bit more painful 17:24:18 -!- santiago__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:26:58 -!- AriaB has joined ##crawl-dev 17:29:06 i never imagined transmutations to be completely painless 17:29:18 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 17:30:05 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:21 -!- mumra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:51 -!- dcssrubot844 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:18 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 17:40:37 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:46:00 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:03 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 17:49:30 -!- Zifmia has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:51:24 -!- Kintak has joined ##crawl-dev 17:51:31 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:52:12 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:23 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-3178-g67d9f34: Remove an Ashenzari overflow altar 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 29-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=67d9f348aff5 17:55:23 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-3179-g6d3b674: Comment fix 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6d3b674ad14c 17:55:23 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-3180-gb47114a: Remove a reference to orb mimics 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b47114a92749 17:55:23 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-3181-g5c8c957: Fix beam name "force bolt" implying that the bolt is a beam 10(2 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5c8c957062c8 17:55:23 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-3182-g30b94af: Remove a reference to ball lightnings casting spells 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=30b94afdac6b 17:55:23 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-3183-g7de6e29: Fix okawaru_arena trapping players 10(54 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7de6e29853fb 17:55:23 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-3184-g29e3195: Remove a pair of abyss vaults 10(41 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 37-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=29e31952326e 18:06:15 -!- scummos_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:07:53 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:36 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:14:48 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:16:00 people on the tavern are talking about moving nightstalker from Ds to Ko or Ha 18:16:07 that actually sounds pretty good 18:16:36 why? 18:16:37 people on tavern talk about lots of things 18:16:43 ...what elliptic said. 18:17:14 move nightstalker to ce 18:17:21 fill out that op and annoying niche 18:17:21 because it requires a lot more adaptation than most Ds mutations, and because Ha and Ko could use some differentiation 18:17:32 alefury: uh, what adaptation? 18:17:43 also some people find it annoying 18:17:51 and would rather not randomly be stuck with it 18:18:15 some people find getting abyssed annoying 18:18:53 fine 18:19:01 hmm, does any artefact jewellery have ISFLAG_KNOW_PROPERTIES but not ISFLAG_KNOW_TYPE in current crawl? 18:22:13 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: Stay sane inside insanity!] 18:22:50 * SamB_ supposes he can find out by messing about with the one he has on his Windows system ... 18:28:02 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:29:54 -!- mumra_ is now known as mumra 18:35:50 03SamB 07* 0.12-a0-3185-ga12ebb9: Add PURE/IMMUTABLE to many functions in itemprop.h and refine a few types. 10(13 minutes ago, 2 files, 100+ 96-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a12ebb9e1289 18:42:38 mumra: don't try to reach consensus with scrolls and melded stuff. The more minor a thing is, the longer people can discuss it (see bikeshedding) 18:43:04 For those cases: power to the coder 18:43:20 mumra: you have a 18:43:48 (Please don't have a. We don't have wax walls anymore.) 18:43:53 mumra: you're working on having a single branch exit? 18:44:05 Hi galehar! 18:44:10 Hi! 18:44:32 galehar: yes i wrote a fix for that as well. bikeshedding happened. 18:44:36 i'm seeing a pattern 18:44:56 mumra: you need to push it. Those 3 branch exits has always annoyed me 18:45:06 heh :) 18:45:20 The only other real alternative to multiple branch exits is randomly picking which branch exit to enter from, which I think is a terrible idea. 18:45:26 kilobyte said wait til tomorrow and push it for .13 since it could be contentious with vaults 18:45:32 sometimes discussion is good, sometimes it kills coder willpower and creativity 18:46:20 Grunt: one entry, one exit is the only sane way 18:46:26 there's definitely consensus that there should only be 1 stair 18:46:33 mumra: ok, fine for .13 18:49:18 mumra: I'm not the dictator here 18:49:32 if you think it's safe enough, let's go with it 18:49:39 that was just a suggestion 18:50:17 (a bit afraid about some vaults, that's all) 18:50:43 we're not releasing .12 tomorrow, there's still time to fix bugs :) 18:50:56 We're not?????? 18:51:01 and possibly generator checks, with stuff that uses hatches up to prevent trapping players 18:51:03 gah 18:51:37 is the plan to branch 0.12 tomorrow then? 18:51:41 i can convert the other two stairs to down hatches to keep the generator happy in extreme cases 18:52:09 evilmike: .12 was released today, you missed the memo?? 18:52:19 i think for the ambush vault i made, down-hatches would be fine. that one places all the extra stairs to give more escape options 18:53:49 down-hatches make the escape options even more fun 18:54:19 how about renaming trunk 1.0-a0? 18:54:24 * galehar feels like bikeshedding 18:55:04 !lg * map=~evilmike s=map 18:55:05 7887 games for * (map=~evilmike): 1712x evilmike_entry_run_for_it, 1031x evilmike_entry_rings, 905x evilmike_entry_hilbert_curve, 847x evilmike_entry_crescent, 564x evilmike_ruin_ashenzari, 489x evilmike_entry_teleporters, 436x evilmike_entry_fibonacci_small, 313x evilmike_entry_plus, 270x evilmike_entry_home_sweet_home, 220x evilmike_catoblepas_cave, 125x evilmike_entry_come_back, 88x evilmike_en... 18:55:09 ...haha. 18:55:26 !lg * kmap=~evilmike s=kmap 18:55:26 136 games for * (kmap=~evilmike): 65x evilmike_entry_run_for_it, 16x evilmike_catoblepas_cave, 5x evilmike_ambush, 4x evilmike_gloorx_vloq_box, 3x evilmike_diamond_2, 3x evilmike_library_of_no_secrets, 3x evilmike_holy_pan, 2x evilmike_bad_box, 2x evilmike_abyss_exit_14, 2x evilmike_horseshoe, 2x evilmike_iron_armoury, 2x evilmike_geh, 2x evilmike_hourglass, 2x evilmike_haunted_forest, 2x evilmike... 18:55:42 aside from that one entry which is just mean to people, they get skewed by quits/wins 18:55:46 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 18:55:53 Oh right. 18:55:58 !lg * !boring map=~evilmike s=map 18:55:58 3207 games for * (!boring map=~evilmike): 1014x evilmike_entry_run_for_it, 537x evilmike_ruin_ashenzari, 219x evilmike_catoblepas_cave, 197x evilmike_entry_hilbert_curve, 170x evilmike_entry_rings, 110x evilmike_entry_crescent, 60x evilmike_entry_home_sweet_home, 55x evilmike_ambush, 44x evilmike_geh, 44x evilmike_library_of_many_secrets, 41x evilmike_diamond_2, 40x evilmike_entry_fibonacci_small,... 18:56:19 ...apart from the lair ending and entries, evilmike_ambush is leading :b 18:56:27 Oh, and that one altar vault. 18:56:35 -!- Snigir has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:56:38 and that ash vault gets placed high because it's early, there weren't many ash vaults for a while, and it takes up a decent amount of floor space 18:56:46 so it gets a ton of kills dispite having 0 monsters 18:56:54 !lg * !boring map=~grunt s=map 18:56:54 287 games for * (!boring map=~grunt): 42x grunt_nemelex_the_gamble, 33x grunt_snake_rune_spirals, 30x grunt_ashenzari_visionary, 28x grunt_spider_rune_circles, 27x grunt_spider_rune_island, 24x grunt_spider_rune_parallel, 20x grunt_profane_halls, 11x grunt_twisty_little_passages, 10x grunt_entry_hellfire, 7x grunt_deathspiral_large, 7x grunt_deathspiral_small, 6x grunt_vaults_entry_fortified, 5x g... 18:57:08 (note how high grunt_ashenzari_visionary is despite being largely harmless) 18:57:19 (Also note what's in the lead; you have yourself to thank for that one :b) 18:57:19 -!- VolteccerJack has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:59:00 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01:14 -!- oxeimon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:01:18 -!- Naruni has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:12 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 19:03:00 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:03:29 -!- mumra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:03:36 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 19:04:25 -!- xnavy has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:05:55 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:07:54 -!- mumra_ is now known as mumra 19:07:57 oh, so if 0.12 is released I guess I could push some likely-regression-inducing attempts to improve auto-ID of artefact jewellery? 19:08:40 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08:53 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:56 -!- dcssrubot98 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:46 -!- rkd has quit [] 19:13:49 SamB_: it's not released. The plan is to feature freeze and fork on monday i think 19:13:52 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:14:40 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 19:14:49 mumra shouldn't joke like that, it's dangerous! 19:16:18 03SamB 07* 0.12-a0-3186-g0bcbfe5: Remove unneeded "if (artefact)" checks from auto-ID code for jewellery. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 19+ 36-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0bcbfe5c1cdd 19:16:48 (but that change shouldn't be dangerous in any case) 19:22:38 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:40 did anyone ever do starspawn tentacles 19:23:41 ontoclasm: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:23:44 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:23:45 !messages 19:23:45 (1/1) bh said (7h 51m 58s ago): The jester tiles look so good! 19:26:19 galehar: monday is after the end of month, let's stick to DracoOmega's deadline 19:26:44 galehar: also, we need to rebuild servers with jesters before midnight :p 19:27:15 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 19:28:20 so is DracoOmega the release manager for 0.12? 19:29:16 I hope not. I actually don't know how to do the technical stuff involved >.> 19:29:31 ontoclasm: Also no, but I suppose I could take a stab at that tonight myself 19:29:59 actually, it would be good to have a designated Lord High Cherry-picker 19:30:47 aka, the "that's a feature not a bugfix" nazi 19:31:21 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 19:37:21 what else is missing tiles-wise for 0.12? is it just meat stuff? 19:37:50 more scroll inconsistencies: enchant / vorpalise weapon won't work on melded; curse weapon won't work on melded; curse armour WILL work on melded ... 19:39:07 remove curse uncursed my melded armour but not my melded weapon 19:39:20 MarvinPA: I think so? At least in terms of stuff that definitely needs something as opposed to 'might be nice' 19:39:21 i'm a bit scared to see how this interacts with ash :S 19:39:34 I'll try to fix brokennish zombie selection (worst case, Cocytus, has just ice dragon zombies, as 1. zombifiable natives exist (ice dragons), and 2. they're the only ones). Most hells are not much better. 19:39:34 Like a unique tile for Imprison walls 19:39:46 and worst of all, Abyss lost its signature anaconda skeletons 19:40:26 !lg * abyss ckiller=~skeleton s=ckiller 19:40:27 1018 games for * (abyss ckiller=~skeleton): 180x a draconian skeleton, 175x a grey snake skeleton, 70x an anaconda skeleton, 58x a quicksilver dragon skeleton, 43x a sea snake skeleton, 34x a merfolk skeleton, 27x a titan skeleton, 26x a storm dragon skeleton, 25x an alligator snapping turtle skeleton, 24x a golden dragon skeleton, 21x a shadow dragon skeleton, 20x an ettin skeleton, 19x a siren s... 19:42:01 ok yeah, ash will let me uncurse my melded weapon (but i still can't recurse it) 19:43:33 well that's good, you might get a stack overflow if you could 19:43:35 other changes I plan: making portal vault entries proper features (so they get their colours back, can be redefined, etc) -- which is probably intrusive enough to not cherry-pick it if it doesn't get in on time 19:43:57 and perhaps shields not showing in tiles for most monsters 19:44:10 this is starting to hurt my head and it is probably way more straightforward to allow all scrolls to affect melded stuff, except that's actually not entirely trivial for ew / vw / cw 19:44:12 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 19:44:32 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:44:51 SamB_: how would i get a stack overflow? 19:45:00 mumra: it's a joke about recursion 19:45:04 ok :) 19:46:12 mmm stack overflows, this is a bug that never produces milestones 19:49:41 grr, looks like someone broke my prettyprinters 19:52:47 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:56:34 mumra: re https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=100391#p100391 - you managed to recreate grunt_runaround (top right), congratulations. :b 19:57:44 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:58:35 haha 19:59:10 oh yeah, i forgot about that vault 20:00:02 :( 20:00:29 this one has a variable number of rings 20:01:24 but of course it's not as good as runaround, without the carefully engineered monster placement and central loot vault ! 20:01:35 :) 20:05:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:05 those super geometrical patterns produce interesting minimaps, its better to aim for "fun to play" though. like, the top left one probably would suck, with those huuuuuge corridors looping around the edges. i'm probably just statign the obvious though 20:06:24 -!- Zermako has quit [] 20:06:44 the bottom left one with the diamond pattern would be more interesting to play, for example 20:09:41 the only one that looks interesting to play is the bottom centre, which is old vaults 20:10:32 i think the bottom left would work if it placed monsters and stairs in a certain way, had more chokepoints, and wasn't diggable. but then we're not talking about a zot layout any more :P 20:13:44 -!- SexyAcids has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:16:48 Okay, first pass on this starspawn tentacle tile code ALMOST works 20:17:03 Except the corner segments are wrong, and ocassionally one tentacle segment turns into a goliath beetle >.> 20:17:14 can we have jesters now 20:17:26 fr: goliath starspawn 20:17:28 april fools came a day or two early last year :) 20:19:47 -!- NewtoCrawl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:20:55 if its going to replace easter then rename boris to jesus 20:21:04 or maybe nobody broke my printers and I just didn't code them carefully enough, I dunno 20:32:06 03SamB 07* 0.12-a0-3187-gcf6489b: Be more careful of NULL pointers in CrawlHashTable/CrawlVector pretty printers 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cf6489b92a26 20:34:04 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:34:34 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:32 Hi dpeg. 20:35:35 Hi! 20:38:00 -!- madSimon has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:40:01 -!- dcssrubot782 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:07 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:46:39 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:24 While I am just mostly replicating how tentacle overlays are currently drawn, I can't help but think this is the wrong way to go about it 20:48:33 Though this is hardly the first part of tile drawing code that could use some rewriting 20:48:36 evilmike: yeah those huge looping corridors won't be staying, i want to break them up with more interference patterns like in the center 20:48:52 or just with gaps like the top-right one 20:48:55 (Or the most important) 20:49:26 mumra: My quick thoughts on those layouts is that they're nearly all too wide 20:49:37 And that the patterns might have potential if the scale was narrower 20:49:59 the other thing you need to note is you can't go too far with p[atterns like that in the middle, since it tends to get annoying to explore large spaces with lots of clutter like that 20:50:12 DracoOmega: they're all generating at full map size atm, i'm going to randomise the sizes 20:50:56 Well, I mean that once a place is fairly wide, exactly how MUCH more wide it is rarely matters in a tactical sense, so I think a lot of these would mostly play as 'open space' in a real game 20:50:57 basically, you always want to stick to the formula of having some open spaces, some chokepoints, some corridors, and no doors, unless you also intend on revamping the monster set too 20:51:20 (I am speaking specifically about zot layouts, if anyone just started reading) 20:51:32 DracoOmega: ah you mean corridor width, sorry 20:51:38 of course, visually this can take a lot of different forms 20:52:16 mumra: Yes, more or less. Like, the large-scale shape of them matters a lot less in an immediate tactical sense, I think 20:52:55 mumra: I <3 your Zot layouts, especially the roundish ones. 20:53:19 dpeg: thanks! and for your comments in the thread 20:53:21 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:45 btw, you can also improve open space by adding pillars etc. 20:54:24 yeah, some more detailed inner geometry can come later 20:54:52 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:55:18 DracoOmega: the corridor widths are randomised, i can keep the scale low, and vary the scale around the layout a bit 20:56:15 Well, keep in mind that Zot currently has lots of narrow corridors and many of these layouts seem to have NO visible chokepoints at all 20:56:42 another thing I don't think aynone has mentioned is, you shouldn't make stuff too predictable. If it's very gemoterical, you can basically know what the level looks like by exploring a quarter of it 20:56:43 evilmike: good point about the patterns, i was basically experimenting with what happened overlaying two of the circular ring layouts with an xor operation, but yes it's very cluttered, at least with that ring density 20:57:15 also, its not entirely about corridor width - you want the corridors to lead to open spaces, generally, rather than just looping around and connecting to each other 20:57:40 ...otherwise you'll just go loopy. 21:00:24 DracoOmega: this was partly intentional of course, there are plenty of layouts with narrow corridors -- it's an obvious way to differentiate branches a little (e.g. spider uses this very effectively) 21:01:15 Yes, but making a branches layouts a lot more open generally has some fairly noticable balance consequences 21:01:38 As you say, it is good that some places (like Spider) have more open layouts 21:01:48 But in a way, that place was built from the ground-up that way 21:01:58 the thing with zot is, there are all these narrow corridors, then the orb chamber is a big open space 21:02:16 and the orb chamber is incredibly dangerous 21:02:17 Well, that is one of the things that makes the orb vault that much more dangerous, of course 21:02:41 there's a reason i save 5 mapping scrolls for every zot run 21:02:48 I am not sure that a general boost to difficulty of Zot:1-4 is itself a desireable thing 21:02:59 But here we're talking about (a) the game end, (b) players are used to a difficulty spike (and e.g. prepare with 5 ?MM), (c) Zot:5 already is (half-way) open, so I think it's natural to make Zot:1-4 open as well. 21:03:30 players save mapping scrolls precisely because they don't want to deal with zot1-4 21:03:52 dpeg: If anything, I think the fact that the final challenge is open seems like a good reason for the branch leading up to that to contrast with it 21:03:56 i don't think it should be every floor completely open like these layouts, but definitely more open 21:04:00 I save mapping scrolls because "if I spend too long on this level I'm going to get swarmed and die". 21:04:01 the layouts don't really say "halls" to me 21:04:19 more like "narrow cramped corridors of zot" 21:04:25 -!- Wehk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:25 dpeg: Since you face a bunch of those threats in more favorable terrain first, then need to deal with them without the aid of that 21:04:25 I am sure that Crawl has enough levels were players can apply their tunnel & corridor tricks. 21:04:27 Halls? 21:04:37 Halls of Zot 21:04:41 The only Hall of Zot is Z:$. 21:04:46 The rest is just the Realm of Zot. 21:04:49 oh right 21:05:35 DracoOmega: open Zot levels would still do that, because the monster mix on Zot:5 is still something quite different 21:05:52 * mumra reboots brain 21:06:41 dpeg: Well, different sure. But there is still a fair bit of overlap 21:06:48 how 'open' is 'open' - there are very few characters, especially 3 runers, who can survive any amount of time in an open zot floor 21:06:52 well the layouts still don't really say "Realm" to me anyway ;) 21:08:52 I think you folks should be more generous towards new ideas. Players can use mapping, digging, fog and all kinds of resources. 21:09:10 to get an idea about what the gameplay in zot would be like with different layouts, it might be worth looking at the elven halls 21:09:28 fr: Elven Halls of Zot 21:09:32 since zot: 1-4 is very similar to doing elf early in the game 21:09:57 -!- InternetKraken has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:10:11 I'm not against the changes, just wary 21:10:13 Grunt: is that where you can steal the orb from Elf? 21:10:22 thus scoring a zero-runer? 21:10:26 dpeg: I don't mean to sound ungenerous (in fact, I'm all for new things in a lot of context, as you may have noticed!) but I am just expressing genuine wariness at the difficulty change, from someone who has done Zot like 100 times 21:10:28 NAME: layout_hall_layers DEPTH: D:2-,Zot,Lair,Elf 21:10:48 (that's one of the layouts in the pics) 21:10:55 eeviac: wary is fine -- I just believe I noticed a tendency to shy away from more radical ideas (perhaps because some of the previous radical ideas backfired or weren't as smooth as they could have been( 21:10:58 We are being generous towards these ideas, if we weren't then we would be rejecting them out of hand, or blindly accepting them. This is good feedback, it's up to mumra to do what he wants with it 21:11:02 except in Lair it's heavily ruined 21:11:45 but whatever he chooses to do, the end result will always be better with lots of feedback 21:11:56 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 21:12:00 no, this is all good feedback (and i was expecting a lot of it, particularly about the difficulty curve) 21:12:13 I guess we all agree that nobody wants something like Nethack's bigroom level. It is a matter of details... if mumra's newlayouts overshoot, it can be addressed. If the real problem is with draconian bands, *those* should be addressed instead. 21:12:23 !send layout_big_octagon dpeg 21:12:24 Sending dpeg to layout_big_octagon. 21:12:26 Hi, um. I have a save on CAO which I had to terminate a process for. 21:12:33 this basically is the same process that happened with vaults too, which went through a number of iterations and ideas, and has turned out well 21:12:34 Grunt: still much much better :) 21:12:35 The server believes there is a game already in progress using that save. 21:12:40 callers are pretty terrifying, because death drakes 21:12:42 I mean, I am certainly not opposed to trialing some of this stuff in 0.13, but I definitely think they would be better with more narrowness (even if they are still more open in some senses than present layouts) 21:13:02 oh, I assumed that none of this would be 0.12 stuff :O 21:13:07 * dpeg is always a bit out of the loop 21:13:13 dpeg: I don't think draconian bands are a problem (item destruction issues aside, which is a more general complaint), but they are definitely much scarier in the open 21:13:13 no no, definitely not .12 21:13:14 something this big is definitely too late for 0.12 21:13:39 Well, now that I'm here, draconian bands are pretty awful thanks to hellfire and miasma. 21:13:51 !lg . cehu zot 21:13:52 1. SGrunt the Merry Centaur (L24 CeHu), worshipper of Okawaru, engulfed by a death drake's foul pestilence (summoned by a purple draconian caller) on Zot:3 on 2012-08-23 04:21:02, with 480885 points after 89300 turns and 5:27:38. 21:13:57 Draconian hellfire is fine, in my opinion 21:13:59 At least that's Zot. 21:14:06 DracoOmega: I agree that the bands will be much harder in the open, but currently, they're not really interesting either, ime 21:14:12 (incidentally, that CeHu suffered through two Zot evilmike_ambushes >:( ) 21:14:19 !cheers evilmike 21:14:20 * Henzell slides a stein of lager across the bar to evilmike, on the house. 21:14:30 heh heh 21:14:31 dpeg: Hmmm... well, I still have found them reasonably varied and interesting enemies 21:14:35 DracoOmega: so when did you say we were branching 0.12? 21:14:37 ??evilmike[2 21:14:38 evilmike[2/3]: You go down through the gate. Welcome to the Realm of Zot! 3 dragons, 5 moths of wrath, an electric golem, 14 draconians, 4 tentacled monstrosities and 3 death cobs come into view. 21:14:43 -!- Wester has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14:54 <3 21:15:05 SamB_: I said 'end of the month', so I suppose that could either by the 31st or the 1st, depending on interpretation :P 21:15:05 Open areas are generally hard 21:15:07 TwilightPhoenix commented that he'd prefer the open layouts because e.g. you could take out hellfire casters first instead of them hidden behind other stuff 21:15:09 it's been a while since I got that ambush 21:15:21 I don't think I've seen it since that CeHu. 21:15:29 DracoOmega: it has to be in time to merge jester onto trunk and built it before the 1st 21:15:37 mumra: Except stuff won't use hellfire on you when you're standing in melee of another draconian in a corridor anyway 21:15:42 Yes it will 21:15:42 In the vast majority of circumstances 21:15:54 In fact, they will even use hellfire on themselves and commit suicide 21:16:00 btw, completely blowing my own horn here (do you say so? it sounds strange in German...) but if someone fancies doing a step or two towards random gods, I'd be most grateful 21:16:04 That's not exactly common 21:16:06 syraine: does that score a partial win? 21:16:17 Partial win? Well, you get experience 21:16:22 dpeg, it sounds strange in english too =P 21:16:22 oh, wait, that's the enemy 21:16:35 * SamB_ was trying to make a doomrl joke 21:16:47 Hoho 21:16:56 mikee_: good to know. "To blow one's own horn" seems to be a phrase, though. 21:17:10 It is, but I don't think that's really the right place to use it 21:17:19 Is there a right place to use it 21:17:19 unless you make zot all stone, digging a corridor where only one thing can see you at a time will be the clear solution to any open level 21:17:43 I don't know about anyone else but usually I just wait on an upstair and yell 21:17:47 syraine, when it is literal 21:17:49 Then kill things in the non-open level above it 21:17:53 <|amethyst> dpeg: "blowing one's own horn" is more like "bragging" 21:17:59 thx 21:18:02 Self-aggrandizement 21:18:17 Anyway, if someone has faith in the rng gods and some time to spare over the next monts (I have a plan to approach them in several little steps), please drop a line on the forum. Sleep here. 21:18:17 i more commonly hear "blowing one's own trumpet" instead of horn but still definitely valid english :P 21:18:19 Like, "I hate to be blowing my own horn, but I'm as big as a house and twice as spacious" 21:18:28 spacious 21:18:35 SamB_: In any case, I don't actually know how to tag stuff properly for branching this and all, so someone else should do it, I think :P 21:18:39 sorry for channel discordance 21:18:56 I did the 0.11 branch; I could theoretically do the 0.12 branch. <_< 21:19:00 Mikee_, would one not simply say, "Blowing my horn" 21:19:02 doomrl is really awful with its win system b tw, i was playing the recent version and im pretty sure you need luck to get a full win now (aka its literally impossible to achieve if you dont get the right drops) 21:19:12 maybe i am just dumb though 21:19:14 dpeg: if nobody's picked it up after i've done demigods and revamped all the layouts i will give it a look ;) 21:19:22 syraine, i can think of contexts in which you would use 'own horn' 21:19:32 I owned that horn 21:19:35 As opposed to 'a horn of my own' 21:19:45 evilmike: you mean, it's actually really likely you'll get to the endgame without getting the right drops 21:19:47 evilmike, do you mean because of the nuking requirement? 21:19:52 g - the horn of dpeg 21:19:52 mumra: you're my hero! But I hope the concept appeals to some non-devs, too. 21:19:56 (Your way has been unbarred.) 21:20:17 syraine, i have an extra horn? would you like to blow it? no thanks, i will blow my own horn 21:20:22 dpeg: i'm sure someone can be strung along ;) 21:20:24 haha 21:20:41 this is an important conversation 21:20:47 evilmike: my last statement should have been a question 21:20:51 Mikee_, I suppose this is potential 21:21:13 When I first heard (rather read) "blowing my own horn" (by Erik, to boot), I thought it'd be a synonym for masturbation. :) 21:21:22 mikee_: yeah there is no guaranteed nuke any more afaik 21:21:30 since you arent guaranteed nuclear plasma any more 21:21:45 well that phrase comes from an earlier age where the world was a little more innocent 21:22:12 hm guess so - i think that's ok though 21:22:15 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleeping to a chorus of horns] 21:22:29 full win in doomrl is more of a bonus, special occasion thing than anything else, at least for me 21:22:46 -!- Palyth has quit [] 21:22:46 just kinda bugs me, I'll manage though 21:23:30 doomrlss 21:24:50 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:25:27 -!- johnstein has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:58 so what if draconians were just a lot stronger but did not come in bands 21:27:11 would they still be annoying for a lot of people? 21:27:42 bands are kind of the point 21:28:11 i don't really care for bands 21:28:14 I would like that version less 21:28:33 Really, isn't mostly what people complain about with them item destruction? 21:28:37 yes 21:28:39 With the flame clouds and the acid spit and all 21:28:42 and death drakes 21:28:48 so you would at least be getting only one type at a time 21:28:50 I actually like death drakes 21:28:59 Like, I mean I hate running into them because they are bad 21:29:03 crawl has too many bands 21:29:05 as is 21:29:05 the thing people dont like about draconians is the item destruction, but that does make zot 5 a bit harder (at least for bad players...) 21:29:07 i think the drakes are good 21:29:07 But I don't dislike the fact that they exist 21:30:06 evilmike: I have to wonder how often that is actually true, but I suppose it's hard to tell 21:30:10 i dont think draconian bands are badly designed though, they are scary, decently differentiated (a couple of the jobs are a bit meh though), and don't feel like fighting other monster groups 21:30:16 dracs are dangerous in packs because some burn and some freeze and some corrode and some hellfireand some unravel your effects and some... 21:30:38 A few times I have thought it would be nice to have item destruction statistics 21:30:47 So we could see how much stuff people actually lose compared to use 21:30:47 fr: drake-onians 21:30:52 when you face a drac band it kind of feels like the game is throwing everything it has at you in terms of damage types etc, and that's sort of the point 21:31:23 sure, and unlike elves, which have similar jobs, they are beefy 21:31:31 -!- johnstein has joined ##crawl-dev 21:32:01 i also drop all of my scrolls every time i see any draconian 21:32:39 -!- johnstein has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:19 -!- johnstein has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:33 Sometimes I try to position myself between draconians such that neither of them will breathe on me due to the presence of the other :P 21:33:45 Not that you often get to do this usefully 21:34:53 i line up 3 of the same color in a row so that they disappear 21:35:27 -!- ZipZipskins has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:51 sometimes I wish nethack development hadn't died just so we could see what unbelievably stupid stuff would be in the game by now 21:35:54 like that 21:36:41 alternatively, i wish nethack development died a tiny bit earlier, just before they added sokoban 21:36:52 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:36:53 was that one of the last additions? 21:37:07 fairly close to the end, in nethack terms 21:37:36 what's that huge castle orient vault that in lower D contains draconians 21:37:43 lemuel_something 21:37:49 that at one point had a bug that turned every square of the moat into dracs 21:38:23 while we're changing zot, can you give tiamat a chance to spawn in d27 entrance vaults? 21:38:36 just so you can get the cloak without hunting in zot 21:38:40 lemuel_castle 21:38:47 that's the one 21:38:54 that vault has a lot of variations, its one of the ones that scales with depth 21:38:57 lemuel_castle_with_subvaults! 21:39:10 afaik its because someone was using a shitty font and confused 1 with l 21:39:13 it spawned on D:27 for me when it had the bug, i nearly died so many times clearing that level 21:39:15 The bug was that the moat was supposed to be lava 50% of the time when it was in its draconian version. 21:39:19 ...the l became a 1! 21:39:23 Xenene the Spear-Bearer (L13 MuCK) (Lair:7) 21:39:28 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4101 21:40:07 !lm xenene crash -log 21:40:08 5. Xenene, XL13 MuCK, T:34994 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Xenene/crash-Xenene-20130331-033923.txt 21:40:40 Grunt: yeah that's the bug, i thought i remembered having some involvement in fixing that 21:40:53 great bug 21:41:11 okay, I just pushed a new branch called "randart-jewellery-id" that's intended to fix #1083 21:41:21 fr panlord spell: Water to Draconians 21:41:33 Hahaha. 21:42:51 New branch created: randart-jewellery-id (1 commit) 21:42:51 03SamB 07[randart-jewellery-id] * 0.12-a0-3188-g4bb9ef0: Try to fix auto-ID of randart jewellery. 10(6 minutes ago, 3 files, 8+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4bb9ef030d51 21:44:25 could use testing and perhaps some save compatability work 21:46:14 MarvinPA: since you reported #1083, maybe you'd like to try it out? 21:49:34 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:55:14 -!- SexyAcids has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:39 where the hell are the instructions for building crawl? 21:55:55 INSTALL.txt? 21:56:16 ah right 21:56:20 it's in my crawl-ref folder 21:56:28 that's what the message when start a fresh build says to look at, anyway 21:56:32 that's less obvious to us windows types since install doesn't usually mean "build" ;) 21:57:02 hey, at least we provided a .txt for your convenience! 21:57:24 typical projects leave it off 21:59:42 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:04 heh :) 22:04:39 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:07 -!- Datul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:05:52 -!- Ryansee has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:05:55 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:10:06 -!- dcssrubot999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:15 !learn add lemuel e.subst("w:w1") 22:17:16 lemuel[5/5]: e.subst("w:w1") 22:17:22 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 22:17:36 syraine: \o/ 22:17:43 :t 22:18:48 -!- santiago_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:24:13 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 22:24:26 -!- krik has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:25:17 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Kicked by KickServ] 22:25:29 -!- madreisz has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:32:45 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:37:03 -!- mgq has joined ##crawl-dev 22:37:13 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:36 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:40:28 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 22:43:50 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:44:12 -!- AriaB has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:49:50 -!- domiryuu has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:51:01 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:40 -!- tswett has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 22:55:10 -!- tswett has quit [Changing host] 22:55:44 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 22:56:24 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:13 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:24 -!- y2s82 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:01:40 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:26 -!- Soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:04:42 ok i've pushed this 23:04:53 it's really easy to remove the is_melded checks if people feel strongly enough 23:05:28 but this makes things more consistent with the existing state (even though there are still inconsistencies with curse / remove scrolls and ash) 23:06:00 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:07 and it also filters the menu when read-iding scrolls to only valid scroll targets 23:08:53 03mumra 07* 0.12-a0-3188-gbab35525: Prevent selecting inventory items that cannot be used, including melded items for scrolls 10(25 hours ago, 5 files, 24+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bab355256aed 23:08:53 03mumra 07* 0.12-a0-3189-g23dc6cb: Don't allow player bypassing menu restrictions with clua 10(6 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=23dc6cb2b361 23:08:53 03mumra 07* 0.12-a0-3190-g64335a3: Filter inventory to valid targets for unidentified scroll 10(6 minutes ago, 3 files, 19+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=64335a372b36 23:08:53 03mumra 07* 0.12-a0-3191-g0428a16: Don't allow melded rods to be recharge targets, for consistency with other scrolls 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0428a166cbf5 23:10:40 -!- danharaj has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 23:18:14 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 23:18:51 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:29:07 03mumra 07* 0.12-a0-3192-ga421ff0: Don't prevent arbitrary items being quivered 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a421ff02fbf1 23:33:54 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 23:34:14 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 23:39:15 03mumra 07* 0.12-a0-3193-g78a13f6: #6843 Increase base iterations of spotty in standard Orc layout 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=78a13f6a7a50 23:39:15 03DracoOmega 07* 0.12-a0-3194-gd0498ca: New starspawn tentacle tiles (ontoclasm) and associated code 10(28 minutes ago, 37 files, 130+ 30-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d0498ca1aeb5 23:39:15 03DracoOmega 07* 0.12-a0-3195-gd07a289: Some new vaults (HangedMan) 10(10 minutes ago, 5 files, 311+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d07a28905534 23:39:17 -!- LoremIpsum has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:49 -!- ToastyP has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:50 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 23:40:05 ontoclasm: By the way, I think something is slightly off with the tentacle corner tiles. I actually edited one myself, where the problem was more obvious, but then when I found myself trying to tweak the others, I realized that I am not really qualified for this :P 23:40:11 -!- dcssrubot468 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:42:06 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:28 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:48:44 -!- johnstein has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:49:23 03mumra 07* 0.12-a0-3196-g5edf6b2: Up iterations for caves in D also 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5edf6b20a57f 23:50:53 hangedman still doing hangedman 23:56:52 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 23:58:08 so is it intended that bolts of penetration piss TSO off without warning? 23:58:38 no 23:58:50 No, but ranged combat apparently has several issues like that? 23:58:56 I am surprised they do, really 23:59:10 since bolts can miss 23:59:31 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:59:31 Well, I know it doesn't work properly with portal projectile, for example 23:59:44 So I am not surprised if there are other ways it doesn't work properly