00:03:45 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:42 -!- Swagmaster has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:09:10 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:10:23 -!- rwbarton has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:11:06 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:11:28 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:11:37 |amethyst: what command was that from? 00:12:12 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:12:17 the Power_On_Time 00:12:33 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:33 -!- dcssrubot927 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:03 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:44 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21:28 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 00:22:24 -!- yxhuvud2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:22:54 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:12 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:27 !tell kilobyte if abyss go-deeper is >, should abyss exits become bh: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 00:23:57 !tell kilobyte thanks for that change, btw 00:23:58 bh: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 00:23:59 -!- bh has quit [Client Quit] 00:26:38 <|amethyst> !tell bh (I'm not kilobyte but) I think the portal glyph is better for abyss exits, in part because of tradition and in part because they don't work like upstairs. 00:26:39 |amethyst: OK, I'll let bh know. 00:27:11 Talk about your flying visit :P 00:28:53 <|amethyst> Maybe his ship isn't coming and he just can't pretend? 00:30:44 -!- Iacchus has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 00:34:33 -!- gluop has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:44:42 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:37 -!- Substitute has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:54:25 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:57:02 -!- Ajsh has quit [Quit: CyberScript - até o Lula usa (www.cyberscript.org)] 00:57:03 -!- dieseltime has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:29 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 01:02:00 -!- neynt has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:04:37 there's ships in this game? 01:04:54 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:06:58 -!- inpho has quit [Quit: inpho] 01:11:43 -!- eb has quit [] 01:12:07 -!- faz_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:13:48 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 01:15:52 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:18:24 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-2753-g3166c96 01:18:27 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:36 -!- volteccer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:22:28 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:24:14 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:28:54 -!- Thalfon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:31:03 -!- frobop has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:31:31 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 01:34:21 -!- gluup_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:40:26 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:41:19 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:41:39 -!- ChongLi has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:42:38 -!- dcssrubot575 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:37 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:46:55 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:48:32 -!- QQQ is now known as gloop 01:48:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:48:45 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 01:52:07 -!- madreisz has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:53:17 -!- animegrampa has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:54:28 update trunk on cdo failed: 01:54:28 files.cc: In function â€˜std::string savedir_versioned_path(const std::string&)â€™: 01:54:31 files.cc:566: error: â€˜Version::Longâ€™ cannot be used as a function 01:54:34 make: *** [files.o] Error 1 01:55:15 mingw builds didn't fail, btw 01:57:02 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:13 Sounds like part of the same thing that had two seperate 'fix compilation' commits earlier today 02:02:09 mumra likes really long lines in commit messages, i see 02:02:19 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:04:55 <|amethyst> SamB: from smartctl, but I removed the junk 02:05:14 <|amethyst> SamB: the package is called smartmontools or something like that 02:07:16 <|amethyst> well, everything's copied onto the new drive and the bootloader is installed 02:07:40 <|amethyst> I guess it's time for me to try rebooting out of this live CD and see if it works 02:07:45 <|amethyst> *fingers crossed* 02:10:26 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:10:57 -!- clouded_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:18:00 DracoOmega: that was from 7 o'clock local time, 1:17 ago 02:18:33 Napkin: I wasn't implying it had been already fixed, but that it may be further fallout from it 02:18:49 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:52 oh, then i misunderstood you 02:18:55 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:40 -!- yxhuvud2 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:29:32 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 02:34:33 <|amethyst> woot, it worked 02:38:37 -!- simmarine_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:43:00 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:33 -!- dcssrubot343 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:44 -!- captainmarvel is now known as sbluen 02:52:38 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:04:06 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 03:06:46 -!- clinew has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:16:04 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:21 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:15 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:35:26 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 03:35:26 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 03:35:26 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: CAO has telnet again. Let rax know if there are problems. | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ?cszo, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious! 03:36:21 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:40:02 -!- a9qd0wf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:41:08 -!- hurdos has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:41:55 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:45:58 03galehar 07* 0.12-a0-2754-gee8dd70: More compilation fixing. 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ee8dd704ecfc 03:47:24 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Quit: bye] 03:47:56 Napkin: that should do it 03:51:40 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-2754-gee8dd70 (34) 04:01:10 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:06:20 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09:12 -!- gloop has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:21:13 -!- Pthing has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:00 -!- yxhuvud2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:23:30 -!- syraine_ is now known as syraine 04:28:11 -!- SkaryMonk1 is now known as SkaryMonk 04:38:00 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:57:23 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:04:12 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:24:35 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:25:24 -!- LikotUdendeb has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:31:47 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:27 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:40 -!- dcssrubot448 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33:55 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 05:37:39 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:42:13 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:46:46 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:52:23 -!- inspector071 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:52:57 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:56:16 -!- Soundlust has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:08 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:02:25 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:22 -!- Mrmini231 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:23:06 03Keskitalo 07* 0.12-a0-2755-gb487bce: Add tag for tutorial messages and hints. Allows for changing the branding of player input (currently [(text goes here)]) without going through the whole database file. 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 207+ 183-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b487bcecc66e 06:23:22 -!- yxhuvud2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:29:22 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:30:38 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:56 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:32 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:23 Why Do not drop trishula? by Thrall 06:53:45 -!- Taco_Princess has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:54:48 Are bug reports like that common? :P 06:56:56 haha 06:56:59 that's cute 06:58:30 orc to pick up an item does by Thrall 07:02:46 -!- dcssrubot376 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:05 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:04:18 Chousuke: there are some bug reports with poor english, but I've never seen something as bad as this. 07:05:07 that looks almost like google translate. 07:05:19 -!- MaxFrosty has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:05:31 google translate is usually better than that 07:06:06 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:01 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:10:08 those aren't the best ones from thrall 07:11:05 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6767 07:11:29 so so sad 07:11:55 -!- Mrmini231 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:16:49 this looks like poetry 07:22:49 -!- santiago has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:24:31 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:29:56 -!- rossi has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:23 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:32:17 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:17 -!- Melum has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:42:51 -!- Wehk has joined ##crawl-dev 07:46:47 -!- yxhuvud2 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:51:36 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:38 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:07 03Keskitalo 07* 0.12-a0-2756-g28484bb: Move tutorial lesson 4 text to database, with some changes to the lesson. 10(15 minutes ago, 2 files, 131+ 188-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=28484bbf2ea9 07:54:07 03Keskitalo 07* 0.12-a0-2757-gafb6f20: Remove now-unused tutorial function. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=afb6f20b6bd0 08:06:40 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:08:25 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:13:59 Keskitalo: what's the problem with !exp ? It makes the player too strong? 08:25:22 -!- blackcustard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:30:25 -!- Dedagen has quit [Client Quit] 08:32:53 -!- dcssrubot481 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:33 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:35:00 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:35:49 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:00 -!- Pedjt has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:44:25 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:06 -!- Porost has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:57:44 galehar: The player doesn't need to forget a spell to memorise Animate Skeleton later on 08:58:33 also, the skill screen interface is more to understand and learn for the player 09:00:21 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:56 -!- Mottikins__ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:46 -!- Melum has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:46 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:04:54 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:05:35 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:05:35 -!- Sombrero_Mott has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:06:20 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:37 on the other hand, it would be really good to have some tutorial content for skill training 09:08:21 -!- pelotron has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:09:57 -!- Mrmini231 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:10:02 I think hints mode should cover most of that 09:10:54 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:13:06 -!- madreisz_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:22:59 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:04 !messages 09:23:04 (1/1) |amethyst said (8h 56m 25s ago): (I'm not kilobyte but) I think the portal glyph is better for abyss exits, in part because of tradition and in part because they don't work like upstairs. 09:23:20 !seen |amethyst 09:23:21 I last saw |amethyst at Fri Mar 15 09:25:09 2013 UTC (4h 58m 12s ago) saying 'syraine: wrt "shmups" I mean' on ##crawl. 09:23:31 -!- bh has quit [Client Quit] 09:27:35 -!- anastasios_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:30:32 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:22 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC] 09:32:55 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:42:10 -!- clouded_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:35 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:23 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:47:35 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 09:56:55 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:03 bh, |amethyst: any thoughts on 5138? It's a fun algorithmic task; I _think_ I came up with a solution two years ago when I implemented cloud targetting but I can't recall what it was (at least after half an hour of thinking). 09:57:03 kilobyte: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them. 09:57:18 I once had skills and looks, now it's just looks :p 10:00:02 the problem is: any square can be floor(ish), wall or unknown; cloud's algorithm is: roll a size (usually 8..10), fill all squares at distance 1, then 2, then 3, ..., with the last, partially filled distance, choosing what to fill randomly. 10:00:52 Question: which squares will be clouded for sure, which will be safe for sure, which can go one way or another. 10:01:51 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:01:52 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 10:02:10 (Current implementation is correct and optimal, but cheats by knowing whether unknowns are walls or floor.) 10:03:00 -!- dcssrubot945 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:51 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:06:22 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:06:33 -!- sbluen has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:19:33 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:20 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 10:23:17 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:38 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:23 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:58 -!- voker57 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:27 -!- home has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:33:25 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:33:27 -!- jarpiain has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:42 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:06 -!- jarpiain is now known as Guest43913 10:42:16 -!- Sombrero_Mott has joined ##crawl-dev 10:45:56 -!- Mottikins__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:49:03 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:13 -!- keszocze has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:50:22 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:30 well it has been suggested to prevent clouds from spreading out of LOS (for balance). Maybe this could also help for that? 10:52:55 so treat anything outside LOS as wall both for targetting and cloud placment? 10:54:25 does that lead of any abuse of LOS to shape the cloud pattern? 11:00:47 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 11:02:53 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:05:02 -!- Mrmini231 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:11:01 -!- scummos^ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:12:26 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:17:59 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:24 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:31 -!- dcssrubot549 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:26:21 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-2758-g3704230: Let db_lint parse meat. 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=37042301adaa 11:26:21 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-2759-g7cd6f19: Fix the desc of meat hydras not working with # heads â‰ 8. 10(7 minutes ago, 2 files, 3+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7cd6f196b009 11:34:08 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0a2/20130314042011]] 11:35:40 Anyone mind committing this? http://pastebin.ca/2333140 11:35:58 Small fix for my earlier WebTiles map cursor changes 11:40:13 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 11:44:07 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:47:29 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:49:55 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:11 -!- clouded_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:53 -!- shirish has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:04 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:56:27 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:56:28 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 11:59:39 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 12:03:57 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11.2-10-g01a9a8f 12:06:50 03edlothiol 07* 0.12-a0-2760-g6d9b99a: Webtiles: Fix the item colour not being updated after uncursing (#6653). 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 7-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6d9b99a5e8c3 12:06:50 03Medar 07* 0.12-a0-2761-gbb69829: Show the text prompt cursor in WebTiles 10(7 days ago, 2 files, 30+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bb6982915872 12:06:50 03edlothiol 07* 0.12-a0-2762-g0fc5115: Show ZP in the Webtiles client (#6762). 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 16+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0fc51155e974 12:10:31 -!- freefall has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:52 -!- freefall has joined ##crawl-dev 12:10:55 -!- brownbrown has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:54 03Medar 07* 0.12-a0-2763-ga8586cb: Init all cursors to NO_CURSOR in WebTiles 10(44 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a8586cbd5c15 12:13:08 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.12-a0-2762-g0fc5115 (34) 12:13:56 -!- gloop has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:13 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 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alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:22 -!- inspector071 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:16 -!- Mumcon has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:49 -!- dcssrubot177 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:36 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC] 16:05:57 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:08:11 !tell ontoclasm about your recent statue tiles: tengus don't have wings, they fly magically (at least in crawl, not sure about mythology). its still a nice statue, just the name is not so good i guess. 16:08:11 alefury: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 16:09:50 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:46 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:45 -!- TARBALLPYTHON has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:57 alefury: I think in mythology it's rather variable 16:24:10 though probably they're a lot more likely to have wings while flying 16:24:15 mhh 16:24:37 crawl tengus are canonically wingless though 16:24:42 eg the species monster 16:31:30 -!- Snarwin has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:37:48 yeah, I wasn't commenting on crawl's tengus 16:41:00 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:01:05 -!- meowfelid has quit [Client Quit] 17:03:10 -!- hurdos has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:06:28 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:07:37 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:54 -!- dcssrubot800 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:13 I've been wondering about the justification for permabuffs reducing max MP. Of course, it's obvious that anyone who channels a lot will avoid permabuffs if it's like that (though excessive channeling might be a part of the game people want to figure out how to discourage?). But slowing down MP regeneration seems like it should be enough. 17:29:36 Alternatively, you could reduce max MP for every kind of buff, as a general nerfing of buffs. 17:30:14 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 17:30:28 yeah, I'm not sure reducing max MP makes much sense 17:30:40 -!- Serfuzz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:46 I also don't really like the permabuff idea in general though 17:31:56 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:05 -!- dcssrubot221 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:38 <|amethyst> what's the alternative? contamination costs for everything? 17:34:29 <|amethyst> because some people want to keep some buffs up all the time, and currently that is tedious to do without Lua scripting 17:34:56 unique disadvantages for each buff? 17:35:22 stuff like swiftness does (although swiftness's disadvantages are a bit silly imo) 17:36:02 or moving stuff to consumables 17:36:09 -!- st__ is now known as st_ 17:36:14 <|amethyst> it would need to be a bigger disadvantage than swiftness's 17:36:23 <|amethyst> or a more universal one 17:36:44 <|amethyst> for some characters (in some parts of the game), the disadvantages of swiftness aren't really relevant 17:37:25 <|amethyst> whereas haste and invis are 17:37:53 yes that's why I said it's silly :P 17:37:59 <|amethyst> what about fractional glow costs? 17:38:04 elliptic proposed inaccuracy for rmsl when it came up for amulet of the air, I quite like that idea 17:38:09 <|amethyst> yeah 17:38:09 though of course you'd have to tweak inaccuracy a lot 17:38:15 since it's not really balanced for anything right now 17:38:22 Typical buffs are one thing, but is there a problem with permabuffs for forms and weapon enchantments? 17:38:25 I don't much like the idea of just piling on contam for everything, personally 17:38:30 especially because you get no contam warnings 17:39:01 and also because it means haste will severely restrict the buffs you can do (you can argue that's an advantage but I think it might be very annoying managing the buffs like that -- better if the disadvantages are all different so you can consider them independently) 17:39:14 Mumcon: permabuff for weapon enchantment already exists 17:39:21 it's a scroll of vorpalise weapon :P 17:39:47 I really don't think that putting extra contam costs on everything is a good idea 17:39:51 forms are already meant to be highly situational, so if you ever consider staying in one permanently it's either atypical (like you could argue necromutation maybe) or badly-designed 17:39:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:15 keeping buffs up permanently is only an issue with a handful of low-level spells 17:40:18 which can be changed 17:40:38 with even stuff as high level as phase shift, the MP cost of keeping them up permanently is extremely high 17:41:23 elliott: If you're in a level where you form is strong against every type of monster, and it costs no hunger to maintain, I think many people would want to keep their form for the entire level. Ice form in the lair (deactivating for fire monsters) is one example I can think of. 17:41:36 rMsl, swiftness (if halving stealth isn't enough), ozo's armour, stoneskin 17:41:44 are the main examples I can think of 17:41:46 elliptic: Well, for level 8 Dragon Form and Necromutation I think if you have ~50 MP the upkeep isn't bad 17:41:47 <|amethyst> elliptic: Shroud except who casts that? 17:42:32 |amethyst: well, you have to recast shroud a lot anyway, and it is melee-only which means you almost always have time to cast it when you first see a monster before it matters 17:42:59 Mumcon: if you can constantly keep a level 8 spell up all the time without worrying about MP, then that's something different wrong in crawl 17:42:59 <|amethyst> oh, right, forgot about melee-only 17:43:06 like, MP recovery methods being too strong 17:43:13 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 17:43:26 <|amethyst> or durations 17:43:37 or the durations being too long at high power, yes 17:43:39 elliptic: Yeah, as amethyst said, I think it's durations 17:43:42 Mumcon: that sounds worse tha just casting ice form when appropriate 17:43:52 like if you autoexplore into that vault with a dragon or whatever :P you don't want rF- 17:44:13 especially since all you save is two keypresses (or one, if you macro it) before fighting a difficult monster 17:44:23 anyway I just think that problematic spells should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis 17:44:30 since they are used in rather different ways 17:44:31 I think players should be free to autoexplore with rF-, especially if they have a ring or something to counter it 17:44:44 Mumcon: you can autoexplore with rF- if you want 17:44:46 by "you don't want" I don't mean "players shouldn't be able to" 17:44:59 I mean "it's a bad idea, so coding a feature whose main benefit is that you can do this is questionable" 17:45:39 <|amethyst> I think shipping some non-default lua to do that wouldn't be a bad idea 17:46:08 <|amethyst> it could help determining which spells are a problem, for one thing 17:46:09 doesn't ice form prevent wand usage nowadays, too? or am I misremembering which forms do that 17:46:52 Just for reference, this is a list I made earlier of all the spells that are currently possible to extend before they disappear. http://pastie.org/6554168 17:47:33 elliptic: I know blade hands does, not sure about ice form... I think yes? 17:47:48 (btw I think the no wand usage in forms thing is really really silly, as well as octopode ring melding) 17:47:53 (have to say that) 17:48:20 Mumcon: disjunction does give glow 17:49:34 Yeah, I thought it did, but I didn't know whether it could be extended before fading (not that you'd typically ever do that with a spell that causes glow and is really short, but I was striving for completeness in that list) 17:50:04 |amethyst: maybe, yes... most of the lua I've seen players come up with for this has been pretty ugly, but I imagine something at least as "nice" as gearset.lua could be made 17:50:47 from trying to do this kind of stuff in ready() I think it'd be like twice the work of nerfing buffs 17:50:49 weapon brand spells are a bit weird, by the way 17:51:01 at least the ones that can be vorpalised 17:51:06 since there's a whole bunch of edge-cases and it can act weirdly 17:51:17 ice form (like all animal forms) prevent wands, yes 17:51:20 since vorpalising them on is mainly just an interface thing 17:51:44 I think one restriction was lifted somewhat recently but I can't remember which one 17:51:49 -!- Thalfon has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:54 <|amethyst> dragon I thought 17:52:07 making brand spells permanent somehow might be good, though I'm not sure I know of a good way of doing this 17:52:40 excruciating wounds relies heavily on *not* being permanent though 17:52:47 for balance 17:53:13 dragon form can use wands at the moment, yes 17:53:14 reducing duration sounds like a good and simple fix for rmsl 17:53:34 The one balancing issue with weapon enchantments that I think may exist is that if you could turn off a permabuff instantly then you could rapidly switch weapon brands, whereas if I understand right, you need to wait for the brand to fade before applying a different once (I don't think I've ever used multiple weapon brand spells) 17:53:47 galehar: dragon form couldn't use wands, as a bug 17:53:48 *One balancing 17:53:54 as in, it was stopped from using wands accidentally; marvinpa fixed it 17:55:02 <|amethyst> was it accidental? 17:55:09 %git 6af1ec20 17:55:23 03MarvinPA * 0.12-a0-1685-g6af1ec2: Fix dragon form being unable to use wands 10(8 weeks ago, 3 files, 7+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6af1ec204df9 17:55:23 the low level brand spells are really tedious to use in my opinion 17:55:23 Mumcon: don't brands disappear when you change weapon? 17:55:35 Medar: Right, never mind then x.x 17:56:33 I don't think it was ever intended to have dragon form use wands 17:56:51 when the wand restriction was introduced, it was supposed to apply to all forms I think 17:56:57 well, the commit was http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=b8d5efd75 17:56:58 all animal forms 17:57:01 which doesn't say anything about dragon form :) 17:57:20 and the changes it makes don't mention dragon form directly at all 17:57:52 felid form 17:58:10 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 18:00:10 <|amethyst> %git a94f099 18:00:11 03kilobyte * 0.11-a0-1080-ga94f099: Forbid spiders and ice beast the use of wands, allow pigs to read scrolls, etc. 10(11 months ago, 5 files, 14+ 42-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a94f099963fa 18:00:37 <|amethyst> also doesn't mention dragon 18:00:59 <|amethyst> and that was the one that added the wand restriction to spell forms 18:02:04 <|amethyst> (before that it was only bats and pigs) 18:04:05 <|amethyst> I think it would make sense for dragons to be prohibited from using wands 18:04:23 <|amethyst> since even Xtahua can't 18:04:34 I agree 18:05:00 <|amethyst> but I'm speaking from flavour, not balance 18:05:28 <|amethyst> balancewise you people who are good enough to ever get to cast it outside of wizmode should decide :P 18:06:43 annoyancewise... 18:06:48 <|amethyst> (as for permanent ice form: there were times I did that as a felid mostly for the carrying capacity bonus; but that was when Tm had fulsome) 18:07:20 <|amethyst> elliott: it's not an annoyance if you don't have to cast the spell 18:07:41 <|amethyst> elliott: and if it's significant enough to make you not cast it, that's a balance issue 18:07:47 <|amethyst> balance of annoyance 18:08:10 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 18:08:28 <|amethyst> okay, I guess that was a specious argument on my part, sorry 18:08:57 so, how about reducing rMsl duration? 18:09:20 |amethyst: that's also why yred isn't overpowered, I take it? :) 18:09:34 (might not apply thanks to DracoOmega, someone should teach him a thing or two about balance!!) 18:12:13 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:13:10 -!- Dixlet has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13:15 <|amethyst> galehar: would the minimal MP cost be relevant for high-level characters? 18:13:32 <|amethyst> high-MP characters with max power, I mean 18:13:51 <|amethyst> I wouldn't want to make it too annoying to low-level characters 18:14:02 <|amethyst> maybe changing the scaling instead of a straight reduction 18:14:26 <|amethyst> which elliptic alluded to earlier 18:14:56 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:16:17 -!- faz has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:16:49 <|amethyst> !tell DracoOmega btw, since you have been asking around about what people feel needs to be done for 0.12, could you compile the answers you got on https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:planning ? 18:16:50 |amethyst: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 18:18:32 duration is 8 + 2d(pow) 18:18:36 max duration is 100 18:18:39 max power is 200 18:19:00 <|amethyst> I don't have a good feel for spellpower numbers 18:19:05 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 18:19:22 maybe reduce max power to 50 or 80 18:20:47 -!- Dixlet_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:22:58 -!- johnstein has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:22 <|amethyst> 2MP per 60 turns on average seems like not a lot 18:23:26 -!- Dixlet has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:05 <|amethyst> not a lot of MP I mean 18:24:23 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:24:42 <|amethyst> power affects the quality too, right? 18:25:10 not for RMsl 18:25:19 <|amethyst> oh, okay 18:25:30 <|amethyst> so a cap only affects the duration 18:26:17 <|amethyst> that sounds like a definite improvement over the status quo for balance, I just question whether it's enough to make highish-level characters not keep it up all the time 18:26:30 <|amethyst> because if the still do, it increases tedium 18:26:33 <|amethyst> s/the/they/ 18:26:58 I'd say it's more a problem with current ranged combat formulas 18:27:31 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:27:34 yaktaur captains can be scary for chars that mostly ignore melee threats 18:28:54 <|amethyst> I'm not sure how tuning that could nerf rmsl into "don't keep up all the time" status without also nerfing it into "don't cast at all" status 18:29:42 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:53 -!- scummos has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:30:21 <|amethyst> I mean, I guess you could make rmsl subtract from rather than divide the to-hit roll so it's more useful for characters facing lower-level threats and less useful against higher-level ones 18:30:56 Incidentally, how many people actually make a point to keep repel missiles up when autoexploring, really? 18:31:04 I certainly have never done so 18:31:17 Unless I'm anticipating something where it's relevant in an immediate sense 18:31:29 good idea in places like Elf or the Abyss 18:31:49 or anywhere dangerous for that matter 18:32:07 or Vaults with all that yaktaurs 18:32:12 I am not saying it might not be optimal, but I don't think a lot of people do it anyway? 18:32:19 Not that I've ever noticed 18:32:41 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:00 -!- Elfheart has quit [Quit: We'll meet again...] 18:33:10 <|amethyst> I've seen at least some people with "recast all these buffs" macros that they use on a regular basis in some places 18:33:23 Hmmm... I have not. Not saying they don't exist 18:33:28 But no one I've ever watched has done so 18:33:29 <|amethyst> I've done it through the bottom half of Vaults 18:33:36 One (potentially wonky) way to make it less desireable to use outside of combat could be to reduce the duration a lot during turns where nothing is firing at you 18:33:49 <|amethyst> I don't remember which games, though 18:34:40 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: evadeberserk 18:34:47 Sorta, yeah :P 18:34:55 I am not sure this is a good idea, mind 18:35:16 Mostly since stuff with dangerous missiles can still randomly spend many turns not using them 18:35:25 And then throw three crystal spears at you back to back or something 18:35:32 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:37:13 <|amethyst> galehar: as I see it, as long as it lasts long enough the regen the 2 mana multiple times, there would have to be some kind of downside if you wanted to make people not want it to be permanent 18:37:18 -!- inpho has quit [Quit: inpho] 18:38:00 Maybe you could make it wear off after deflecting X missiles, and otherwise not wear off? 18:38:16 <|amethyst> hm 18:38:37 <|amethyst> Isn't it a no-brainer then 18:38:56 kilobyte: surely it's a good thing that characters very strong against melee still have to be scared of alternate threats like ranged combat? 18:39:46 Well, is it strictly a problem that people who can cast repel missiles will want to cast repel missiles in cases where there are missiles? 18:40:28 If the problem is potential tedium with it being optimal to have up all the time, yet this taking manual action to keep going, something like that would reduce that 18:40:41 <|amethyst> It's a problem if that means everyone capable of casting spells wants that one 18:40:54 <|amethyst> Right now tedium is one of the major reasons they don't 18:41:02 I... don't think that's true 18:41:11 I've never heard of someone not bothering to learn repel because it is tedius 18:41:20 <|amethyst> I guess that's true 18:41:32 <|amethyst> one of the major reasons they don't keep it up all the time (in some places) 18:42:02 And there are a bunch of spells that just about anyone with spells wants. I am not convinced this is even a problem, but if it is, it applies to more than just that certainly 18:42:26 If we had Repel Missiles in real life, we never would have switched from swords to guns. 18:43:13 Theoretically, if the number of missiles reflected was a function of power, yet duration was long or infinite regardless, it might make it less desireable to just splash, while removing any tedium from recasting all the time out of combat 18:43:30 (By splash I mean 'use all the time with low power investment') 18:43:43 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: that is true, and a good point 18:44:04 <|amethyst> I wasn't considering how much of a nerf "only X missiles" could be if it scales with power 18:44:52 or, like shroud, it could reflect X damage 18:45:52 <|amethyst> FR: Reflect Missiles spell 18:46:02 I'm not sure damage makes as much sense here as missiles themselves 18:46:20 repel I meant, sorry :p 18:46:21 |amethyst: It might actually be kind of fun if deflect could sometimes reflect :P 18:46:55 maybe rmsl's efficiacy at blocking missiles should just scale with power? 18:47:11 I guess that doesn't solve the essential tedium, but it nerfs learning it and then casting it all the time at low power 18:47:37 Well, I think it is also a problem if the effects are too unnoticable at low power. It's already kind of iffy early-game 18:47:40 For those who can use it then 18:48:09 All things being equal, I'd much rather a few shots of a decent evasion boost than a longer duration of a very minor one 18:48:31 that's why I suggested using damage: in the early game, you wouldn't need much power 18:48:33 Plus, I think it is easier then to 'feel' when it's getting better 18:49:05 <|amethyst> make rmsl permanent/togglable but have it use MP every time it works 18:49:27 That sounds like a heavy nerf, especially to low level characters 18:49:27 -!- Thalfon has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:49:31 <|amethyst> true 18:49:35 * kilobyte goes to add a machine gun monster spell. 18:49:39 -!- AndChat|508 is now known as Thalfon 18:49:59 Like, high level melee people that just use spells for buffs would barely notice, but it would be prohibitive for people that use their mp pools a lot 18:50:05 (Or still have small ones) 18:50:38 it's sort of like guardian spirit 18:51:07 if it only drained like 1 mp I don't think it'd be that heavy a nerf (guardian spirit is pretty good for many characters, after all, and this is sort of similar) but it sounds weird 18:51:50 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:23 Well, probably if we want to make the spell weaker for ANYONE, it would be people who just splash for it, no? 18:53:30 As opposed to heavily invested mage types 18:53:43 Yet mp drain would nerf it most for people using their mp a lot otherwise 18:53:50 While barely affecting the other people 18:54:12 <|amethyst> yeah, I think it's a bad idea 18:54:28 <|amethyst> brainstorming here :) 18:54:46 I think rmsl is basically equally problematic no matter who you are :P 18:54:51 Oh, sure. I'm not critizing, just critiquing :P 18:54:56 except a trog worshipper. 18:55:03 I don't actually think rmsl is that problematic period, but.... 18:55:13 Like, it has never occured to me to think 'this spell is a problem' 18:56:12 it's quite mandatory for EV chars in some places 18:57:13 Well, 'highly desireable to a general audience' I don't think automatically translates to problem 18:57:48 yeah, so are Max HP 18:58:04 that doesn't mean we remove all Max HP and leave everyone with Max HP of 0 ... 18:58:15 nobody proposed removing rmsl :P 18:58:24 There are lots of things like that (items, spells, certain skills) and I think this is to be expected, so long as an individual thing is not itself somehow woefully unbalancing 18:58:35 Which rmsl really doesn't seem to be 18:58:38 (At least to me) 18:58:43 or that Max HP is overpowered, and HP should only be allowed to go up to a fraction of it 18:59:19 Well, if we are considering rmsl a problem, perhaps we should agree first on what the problem actually IS :) 18:59:22 SamB: you can't go without max hp :p 18:59:28 I know 18:59:36 DracoOmega: having to recast it 18:59:52 Yes, well that is a very seperate problem from it being too strong for certain types of people or all people 19:00:16 kilobyte: oh, that's a lot easier; make it able to recast itself at intervals 19:00:24 (And some of these ideas are more directed towards that than this other problem) 19:00:34 charms/buffs are good on (nearly) every character 19:00:45 is it really problematic if every character wants to cast buffs 19:01:08 I don't think so, certainly 19:01:11 it might be a pain to *re*cast them, though 19:02:28 <|amethyst> well, the second major design goal in the philosophy document is "meaningful decisions (no no-brainers)" 19:02:29 -!- Someguymaybestev has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:02:34 Well, I think that a duration based on the spell doing something rather than a duration based on time is likely the best solution to recast tedium 19:02:51 |amethyst: Well, at that point is it bad that keeping a wand of heal wounds with you is a no-brainer, if you have one? 19:03:00 There are lots of things that almost anyone will want, once they can get them 19:03:09 -!- dcssrubot433 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:09 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: using it isn't a no-brainer though 19:03:18 that's not a no-brainer if it means you have to carry one less elixir card or something :P 19:03:27 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: because it's not renewable 19:03:42 anyway the problem is buffs without drawbacks that promote tedious recasting 19:03:46 not buffs being good in general 19:04:23 mp drain is a drawback 19:04:41 Also taking a turn, in many cases, is also a meaningful drawback even if something is free 19:04:48 yes, so like elliptic said earlier, it's only those which are low-level that are problematic 19:05:09 <|amethyst> high-level involved a meaningful decision to learn that much charms 19:05:18 <|amethyst> or air or whatever 19:05:20 elliott: why not just make it possible for Crawl to do the recasting? 19:05:31 RMsl lasts 10000000 turns, DMsl lasts 0.000001 19:06:45 er, I thought time was in increments of dturns 19:06:47 SamB: well, that's how this started... 19:07:41 so ther's an objection that these buffs are too good/cheap for higher-level characters? 19:08:03 I'm not sure it's even that they're too good, in terms of the power level they provide 19:08:26 But that you COULD (theoretically) keep them active all the time, even while not in combat, and just running around, because their cost vs. duration is low enough to do 19:08:29 so 19:08:31 well, the objection is that it's much less interesting for a spell to be something you want to have up all the time, and that rather adding the machinery to keep them recasted (which just supports the few problematic spells that are low-level enough for MP cost to not negate this), those spells should be tweaked instead 19:08:31 making Haste level 8 again would make learning it a more meaningful decision (massive investment instead of 10 charms that's mostly free for high-level chars) 19:08:34 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:08:48 Level 8 'again'? When was it level 8? 19:08:49 e.g. swiftness got the stealth and traps thing 19:09:18 DracoOmega: before BWR decided it's so much weaker than invis :p 19:09:23 elliott: Well, stuff like ozocubu's armour may not be an interesting decision to CAST, but it requires a strategic choice of skill investment for it to actually be good, and that seems okay 19:09:35 DracoOmega: and it was years before the 1.5x nerf, too 19:09:47 elliott: You're making a choice, even if not at the moment of casting it 19:09:58 wait, what are these crazy version numbers not starting in 0? 19:09:59 DracoOmega: right, but that investment is much less relevant for lower-level spells 19:10:15 elliott: Well, that spell is only 3 19:10:17 though i'd say ozo's is at the very least borderline there 19:10:18 elliott: Stoneskin is 2 19:10:27 especially since it is so good 19:10:32 But neither is especially good without a bunch of elemental skill 19:10:51 Okay, it doesn't take a HEAVY investment, but still some 19:10:55 elliott: in any case, even with drawbacks people might like to not have to recast manually ... 19:10:59 SamB: Pre-SS 19:11:00 It's still a non-negliable decision involved 19:11:25 that might even make them want to de-spell early 19:11:30 -!- Taco_Princess has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:42 <|amethyst> SamB: for me 1) that it's so easy for any character with any spellcasting capability (and it doesn't take much of that) to learn and effectively use rmsl (no-brainer) 2) that if you do have it want it up all the time, only interface annoyance keeps you from that 19:12:05 <|amethyst> SamB: so making it permanent fixes 2 for me but not 1 19:12:32 so make it harder to find? 19:12:43 That's a poor sort of fix for that, I think 19:12:46 -!- TacoPrincess has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:51 (Though I don't personally think #1 is inherantly a real problem) 19:12:56 <|amethyst> no, it's still a no-brainer to learn it if you get it 19:13:11 I don't see something being a no-brainer as definitely bad 19:13:13 -!- inspector071 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:13:28 I mean, if you see a dragon on D:1, isn't that a no-brainer too? 19:13:40 dragon armour? no 19:13:46 no, just the dragon 19:13:51 if you mean the monster i dont really get your meaning 19:13:54 <|amethyst> that you should run? 19:14:00 yes, that you should run 19:15:43 <|amethyst> at least there you have to decide how you'll run, what you can take cover behind, is there a door, etc 19:16:26 oh, you get to decide if there's a door now? 19:16:39 <|amethyst> in the case of rmsl it's "do I put some skill into charms or into air" and that's usually a no-brainer too (but that's not rmsl's fault) 19:17:28 <|amethyst> SamB: you have to evaluate the map and decide that, so it's not a no-brainer 19:17:33 <|amethyst> I mean 19:17:56 * SamB was just making light fun of |amethyst's grammar 19:18:17 <|amethyst> oh, sorry :) 19:18:28 Why must every decision have a whole lot of depth to it, if a significant portion of the decisions do? It's okay to not have to think too hard about everything, so long as you don't go too long without having to eat 19:18:29 <|amethyst> "decide" should have been "evaluate" on that one 19:18:29 -!- CreepingCrawled has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:30 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:18:38 It's a no-brainer to eat when you're starving, too 19:18:54 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: we have options to macro that away 19:18:57 Oops 19:19:02 'Without having to think', I meant 19:19:20 There are options to eat automatically? 19:19:37 -!- reu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:19:39 <|amethyst> auto_eat_chunks = true 19:19:57 Hmmm... though I'm pretty sure using that option would bother me 19:20:26 <|amethyst> I don't think anyone would object to expanding it and making it more tunable 19:21:02 include = auto-each-chunks.lua 19:21:06 er. 19:21:09 or however you do that 19:21:20 But in any case, you seemed to say earlier that even if a setting like that existed for repel missiles, you'd still think there was a problem with the spell, for so many people to want to use it regularly 19:21:23 No? 19:22:43 <|amethyst> I see 19:22:54 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:23:31 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Kicked by KickServ] 19:23:38 <|amethyst> Well, philosophically food is a bit of a problem, but I don't think anyone knows how to change it now (dtsund has his way) 19:24:14 <|amethyst> Though at least there there are questions on how you get it regularly 19:24:15 Yes, I'm hardly holding up the food system as a shining example of rightness :) 19:24:22 <|amethyst> whereas for rmsl you just have to find it once 19:24:34 you can argue nausea provides "interesting" "decisions" 19:24:41 but it'd be a really bad argument 19:24:44 Well, running out of food isn't a real existing issue for almost anyone 19:24:44 -!- residualshade has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:24:59 |amethyst: Light's foodlessness makes it degenerate into a wait fest 19:24:59 <|amethyst> elliott: do you want to go back to sickness? 19:25:17 |amethyst: sad to admit we can't instead go forward 19:25:24 |amethyst: mummy-stabbing, resting off everything, etc 19:25:35 the staircase change in light makes mummystabbing trickier 19:25:43 kilobyte: There's plenty of food in the case to rest of everything in almost any case, anyway 19:25:44 (it was introduced after monqy won an extremely pathological mummystabber) 19:25:51 in the game* 19:26:12 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 19:26:15 food removal also causes you to rebalance a ton of stuff (races, spells, gods) 19:26:20 In any case, I wasn't meaning to derail this into a food discussion :P 19:26:39 -!- ldf has quit [] 19:26:46 the food clock is a mild but needed one 19:26:48 so you replace one bad system with a bunch of other bad systems 19:26:51 Since that's a whole other can of worms 19:27:15 <|amethyst> I'm not saying food will never be changed, just that it does introduce some tedium 19:27:39 |amethyst: (for clarity, I would define "forward" here as removing nausea) 19:27:50 <|amethyst> elliott: and replacing it with what? 19:27:57 how about nothing 19:27:59 I'm pretty sure 'nothing' 19:28:20 <|amethyst> and what about brown chunks? 19:28:29 |amethyst: either make those chunks totally inedible (tightens the food clock a bit, but possibly starvation-inducing for some races), or just make them plain old edible 19:28:35 If you really want to make them worse than clean ones, you could just make them give less nutrition 19:28:39 can tweak food distribution in any case 19:28:40 <|amethyst> elliott: so eliminate them 19:28:52 less nutrition would be fine too, yeah, though seems hardly worth bothering with to me 19:29:04 <|amethyst> elliott: or I guess you keep the distinction just for saprovores? 19:29:12 AFAICT nausea's main contribution to the game is annoyance; I've never seen someone starve because of nausea or whatever, or make a tough decision because of it 19:29:28 so it doesn't seem terribly balance-relevant what it's replaced with 19:29:41 Well, it does sometimes mean that you sometimes eat permafood instead of normal food, but rarely, and not enough to generally matter 19:29:48 In my experience 19:29:51 elliott: it's pretty painful in Orc, if you have food needs 19:30:01 in general I think with a "necessary but boring" clock like nausea it's nicest to just be allowed to eat... nobody finds food interesting enough that they want to think about it 19:30:04 elliott: (berserk, Sif) 19:30:04 Painful as in annoying sometimes, sure 19:30:19 But you generally have plenty of permafood to cover periods where you're getting naueseous all the time 19:30:28 in that sense only having permafood would be even better, but that messes up species balance more 19:30:33 and is a far bigger change than nausea 19:31:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:31:22 I think removing nausea and then reducing nutrtion from brown chunks for non-carnivore/saprovores would probably result in a similar net effect on food use, overall 19:31:25 With less annoyance 19:32:45 doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, I won't fight dpeg for you here though :p 19:32:54 "Something is not quite right with this meat." 19:33:16 This meat makes you feel nauseous.--More-- 19:33:20 just kidding that was removed 19:33:35 1/2 instead of 2/3 would work 19:35:13 -!- clinew has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:35:49 I don't think reducing nutrition would make almost any difference at all there, unless it's really drastic 19:36:06 <|amethyst> I didn't mean to derail the thread 19:36:13 Well, it might make about the same difference that nausea does (ie: not a lot) 19:36:21 Except in a way that was generally less hassle for the player 19:37:03 Maybe I'm failing think of some brown chunkers, but there are enough of orcs to eat 3 times the chunks pretty much always 19:37:48 -!- johnstein has joined ##crawl-dev 19:40:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 19:40:48 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:57 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:44:31 -!- rwbarton has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:45:49 so it doesn't seem terribly balance-relevant what it's replaced with 19:45:54 replace it with nothing yes 19:46:16 I think removing nausea and then reducing nutrtion from brown chunks for non-carnivore/saprovores would probably result in a similar net effect on food use, overall 19:46:18 mmmmm this 19:46:23 goodideasomega 19:46:45 Hehe 19:48:49 !seen dpeg 19:48:49 I last saw dpeg at Sun Mar 3 01:23:56 2013 UTC (1w 5d 23h 24m 53s ago) quitting with message Quit: Lost terminal. 19:53:28 -!- maha has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 19:55:44 |amethyst: Oh, in terms of a 0.12 leftovers list, should I put that below the stuff that's already there? Or should some of the stuff in the 0.12 list currently there actually be moved out (stuff that really doesn't seem likely or even desireable to squeeze in at this point, for example) 19:56:47 -!- Oddtwang has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:49 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: at least categorize into likely and unlikely if not delete 19:58:33 <|amethyst> or, rather "feasible for a release soon-ish" 19:58:37 Fair enough 19:58:44 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:46 Because stuff like fighting reform is clearly not a 0.12 target at this point 19:59:03 <|amethyst> not if we're going to keep a remotely biannual schedule :) 19:59:08 Yeah 19:59:31 when's 0.12 due to freeze, vaguely? 19:59:31 ontoclasm: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 19:59:36 !messages 19:59:41 (1/2) minqmay said (2d 21h 29m 2s ago): here is another good reference: http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/c7/c37730.jpg 19:59:48 !messages 19:59:49 (1/1) alefury said (3h 51m 38s ago): about your recent statue tiles: tengus don't have wings, they fly magically (at least in crawl, not sure about mythology). its still a nice statue, just the name is not so good i guess. 19:59:50 As soon as we can agree to do so, I figure. I think there is not much left that really should be done before it 20:01:10 <|amethyst> If we release after July 1 that would be quite bad 20:01:22 <|amethyst> I would prefer to release in April 20:01:28 It's already been 5 and a half months since 0.11 release, and we obviously want some time after freeze, too 20:01:29 "non-tengu bird-person" 20:01:48 <|amethyst> and 0.11 was already late 20:01:51 Yes 20:02:02 my only "blocker" for 0.12 is starspawn tentacle code 20:02:04 If we can freeze in the next week or two, I think that would be ideal, personally 20:02:27 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: what about it? 20:02:58 it needs to 20:03:00 uh 20:03:01 exist 20:03:03 i guess? 20:03:06 DracoOmega: sounds good 20:03:08 for the tiles i mean 20:03:11 Right now they are using eldritch tentacle tiles 20:03:16 <|amethyst> oh 20:03:16 -!- myrmidette has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:03:22 <|amethyst> I don't play tiles, sorry 20:03:23 New code needs to be written to let them use their own set 20:03:35 And I think it's a touch involved, given all the articulations 20:03:39 well 20:03:41 <|amethyst> I load it up when I am working on a bug involving tiles, and that's about it 20:03:42 But I haven't looked that closely 20:04:10 there's a huge function that figures out which to display, and it takes a bool "is_kraken" 20:04:17 Haha 20:04:18 Nice 20:04:20 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: which means that every time I see your work it's in relation to a bug :P 20:04:24 hah 20:05:26 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: make an enum, and have TENTACLE_KRAKEN TENTACLE_STARSPAWN TENTACLE_ELDRITCH etc 20:05:28 kilobyte: Do you have any outstanding items you feel need to be done before freeze? I've been trying to assemble a list 20:05:28 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:35 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:05:49 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: but that may be quite a bit of refactoring to do, I haven't looked at the code too much 20:05:54 <|amethyst> but guess who has? 20:06:01 I actually haven't either! 20:06:02 DracoOmega, is there something about abyss monster spawn weighting on that list already? 20:06:06 The tile code is quite seperate 20:06:10 Grunt: Yes 20:06:16 I suspected as much. 20:06:51 -!- Luxivar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:52 |amethyst: well for max portability it would be nice it it did something like (tile - TILE_MONS_KRAKEN_TENTACLE + tile_base) 20:07:02 |amethyst: Mostly I just looked at it briefly, saw it was complicated, then realized that somehow magically eldritch tentacle tiles were already working for it, and just left it that way 20:07:18 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-2764-g7f66b59: Unbreak NOTE_DEBUG_CHAOS_BRAND. 10(22 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7f66b59962ef 20:07:18 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-2765-gc6fb277: A rare effect for weapons of shafting: polyself into a weapon-using form. 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 18+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c6fb277187eb 20:07:20 so that as long as they are in order on the code sheet we could pass an arbitrary base 20:07:46 I haven't actually seem the starspawn tentacle tiles you did 20:08:36 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1000017/crawl/starspawn.zip 20:08:45 -!- Sorbius has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:53 including a rather silly-looking body 20:09:30 also they are currently red, but could easily be color-shifted 20:09:31 Wiggly :P 20:09:35 yeah 20:09:39 -!- maahes has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:09:51 and they have spirally ends instead fo weird hooks 20:09:53 That body tile's not intended to replace the current one, is it? 20:10:06 either way 20:10:24 It looks really weird to me. The tentacles look nice, though :) 20:10:43