00:00:28 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11.1-35-g9f67e61 00:01:02 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1616-ge3ef79a (34) 00:01:20 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1616-ge3ef79a (34) 00:01:54 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:03:30 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 00:05:53 -!- Unflexed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:07:53 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1616-ge3ef79a 00:10:26 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:46 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:15 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:25:57 -!- ponies has quit [Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com] 00:26:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:29:00 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:31:24 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:14 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:41:47 hrmph. In this new form, I'm adding a bunch of dex. I'm seeing notify stat change getting called, but the dex isn't budging 00:41:58 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:42:49 are you wizmode casting the form or something? I have some vague memory of that not working properly 00:42:59 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:43:08 I am... but it works for spider form! 00:43:41 hm, no idea then if it works for spider form 00:48:24 -!- Nabski has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:51:32 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:07:40 -!- Spavven has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:09:23 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:01 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: [colossal fart sfx]] 01:27:09 -!- domiryuu has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:30:32 -!- ZRN has quit [] 01:31:11 -!- caleb__ has quit [Quit: caleb__] 01:32:44 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:42:51 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 01:46:49 -!- voker57 has quit [Changing host] 01:54:02 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:55:28 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 01:59:09 hang in there, |amethyst :) 01:59:32 electric golem (118) | Spd: 16 | HD: 15 | HP: 117-152 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1511(elec:15-21), 1511(elec:15-21), 15, 15 | 11non-living, 10doors, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(160), 05fire, 02cold, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 5415 | Sp: b.lightning (3d20), blink | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 01:59:32 %??electric golem 02:01:04 kilobyte: is wisp form good or bad? 02:04:27 -!- ZenArcade has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745]] 02:08:08 hrm. I do believe I've made 'electric form' over powered. 02:08:49 -!- bza has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:01 not surprising, given that elec melee brand very strong against a lot of the game 02:09:16 elliptic: I cleared zot:1 by casting it three times while naked. 02:09:19 -!- connection_detai has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:09:27 not that gear matters that much for forms 02:10:11 !tell HangedMan You finish putting on the -4 cap of the Hanged Man {rF+ Dam+6}. 02:10:11 bh: OK, I'll let HangedMan know. 02:12:45 isn't this meant to be a bad form :P 02:12:56 elliott: no. 02:13:00 how much UC/tmut did you have? high-skill UC is very powerful, especially if you give it elec brand 02:13:07 well tmut doesn't really mattre 02:13:36 elliott: I just did 27. I suppose that's too high? 02:14:16 if you have 27 of all skills and didn't have that hard a zot:1, clearing it naked with no form isn't unreasonable I think 02:14:26 zot:1-4 difficulty varies a lot 02:15:27 if I had to fight zot:1 naked 02:15:36 27 UC would probably be in my top 3 choices of weapons 02:16:34 what resists does electric form confer and what slots does it allow. does it have a gimmick other than this and the elec melee? 02:16:41 i.e. what is electric form 02:17:04 -!- simmarine_ is now known as elliptical 02:17:30 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6638 -- I thought I'd try implementing TwilightPhoenix's idea 02:18:07 monqy: rF+, rC+, rPois, rElec 02:18:17 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Pacra] 02:19:19 chain lightning attack sounds... interesting 02:19:35 -!- elliptical is now known as simmarine 02:19:48 elliptic: my thought was to have it lightning-blink on a kill 02:20:30 if it is actually casting chain lightning then you should be aware that chain lightning does a ton of damage in some situations 02:20:51 like, you can 4-shot cerebov with it pretty reasonably 02:21:06 ??chain lightning 02:21:07 chain lightning[1/2]: Level 8 conj/air in Annihilations that arcs from target to target (including leaving your sight, going around corners, etc) until it grounds out. You do not aim it. Due to its chainy nature, be prepared for it to hit you and your allies, possibly repeatedly. The arcs, including the initial casting, work most reliably on shorter distances. 02:21:22 It seems unreasonable to give a level 8 conj to a form. 02:21:45 yeah, at least not at any very high power or on every hit 02:22:11 if it's chain lightning as suggested in that thread, it sounds not very desirable 02:22:33 -!- Nivim has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:22:46 dragon form's trampling is a pretty noticeable downside, blinking right across the room when you hit something would be much worse 02:23:02 hrm. I'm getting a crash on orb of fire malmutate 02:23:47 ASSERT(flavour > BEAM_NONE && flavour < BEAM_FIRST_PSEUDO); -- seems like an odd crash 02:25:09 ah. Looks like a bug on bad_forms 02:26:52 !tell kilobyte 043ffe16 causes a crash on orbs of fire. You can fix it by making malmutate a non-pseudo beam, but I'm not sure if that's what you want. 02:26:53 bh: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 02:28:42 MarvinPA: I don't think it would be annoying if you lightning-bolt-traveled to a square adjacent to monster upon getting a kill 02:29:36 well that's not what was suggested in the thread.... 02:30:05 the point in the thread post was that it'd be "potentially powerful, potentially useful for escapes, but risky if not used properly" 02:30:17 being blinked out of a chokepoint into the middle of a group of enemies sounds bad 02:32:56 On the surface is a level 9 Air/Tmut spell out of the question? 02:33:46 a level 9 air/tmut spell would have to do something pretty ridiculous 02:33:55 since we are talking about the same investment as fire storm 02:33:59 air/fire/tmut spell Orb of Fire Form 02:34:22 (and without vehumet to help probably) 02:35:08 air/tmut has less "synergy" than fire/conj too 02:36:08 I think that you'd be better off targeting an air/tmut spell at level 6 +- 1... sort of a counterpart to statue form 02:37:04 ice/tmut spell Lomlobonomutation 02:37:08 lomlobotomutation 02:37:46 elliott: /summ, you're summoning a demonic spirit to get the tmut on with 02:39:03 Tornado Form: It turns you into a tornado and casts chain lightning every turn. 02:40:57 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:43:27 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:47:20 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:12 -!- ayutzia has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:50:30 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:50:30 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 02:50:49 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:51:14 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:27 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:02:47 -!- Heteroy has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 03:03:01 -!- calebengland has quit [Quit: calebengland] 03:06:45 -!- CampinSam has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:26 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10:28 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:21:18 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Quit: Crazylemon64] 03:24:05 -!- TEMPTROG has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:26:28 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:44:57 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:47:33 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:50:52 -!- Poncheis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:53:15 -!- Pikkle has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:03:14 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:07:31 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:16 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:17:29 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:19:12 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:23:29 -!- Findor has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:23:50 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:24:17 -!- omt has quit [Quit: -] 04:24:55 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:25:50 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:52:17 -!- Zephryn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:21 -!- Psyknux_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:03 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:58:11 -!- Zephryn has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:02 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1616-ge3ef79a 05:00:34 -!- Vizer_ is now known as Vizer 05:06:02 will someone let me patch out vaults that autoexplore you into a tele trap multiple times if you don't autoexclude the rest 05:06:23 autoexplore traps are super annoying 05:06:34 that xom vault is awful 05:06:35 xom vaults? 05:06:53 that one, in addition to that awful xom vault and a couple others i can think of now 05:07:13 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:07:31 autoexploring into one is fine, more than that is really spoilery and an interface screw 05:07:57 i shouldn't be forced to autoexclude things i only know about if i have seen it before 05:08:08 hidden things especially 05:09:14 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:29:15 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:34:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:35:29 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:38:56 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 05:44:34 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:17 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 05:58:31 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:03:17 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:10:28 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:13:31 -!- Senjai has quit [Changing host] 06:15:05 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:25 -!- Salivanth has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:17:56 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:20:23 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:22:27 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:51 -!- ChongLi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:29 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:38:27 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:15 -!- ChongLi_ is now known as ChongLi 06:56:08 -!- anele has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:46 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:08 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:19 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:12:46 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:14:10 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:15:16 http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/07/tome-is-where-the-heart-is-happy-new-roguelike/ 07:18:06 -!- Vizerr has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:18:39 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:34 (just some semi-mainstream roguelike coverage) 07:26:09 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:09 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:54 -!- raistware has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:47:24 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:50:34 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:00:16 Napkin, edlothiol: i hear you guys have access to cszo. does this include sizzell? 08:00:58 someone chose to register the account "fatandgay4pay2day" which i would assume neil would want added to the offensive account names list 08:04:43 -!- bakaflockaflame has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:08:35 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:09:51 probably, though I have no idea where that resides 08:11:46 alefury: DarkGod just posted this bandwidth chart of te4.org: http://te4.org/images/tmp/ahahlol.png 08:15:14 Stop mocking us Darkgod 08:15:26 ...Is new TOME any good? 08:16:30 I found the bad users list, though I think Sizzell would have to be restarted for changes to take effect 08:18:02 ah 08:18:24 maybe I'm reading it wrong, I'm bad at perl 08:19:35 I'll at least add the name to the list 08:19:59 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:33 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 08:22:48 -!- shirish has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:26:22 -!- Sombrero_Mott has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26:50 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:29:22 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:51 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:31:20 -!- Sombrero_Mott has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:36:03 -!- shirish has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:09 -!- omt has quit [Quit: -] 08:39:34 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:41:03 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Quit: I've killed the senator.] 08:43:57 -!- shirish has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:46:00 http://pastebin.com/1iMh3bmK 08:46:14 Wait, HangedMan isn't here yet to rip my vault to shreds. 08:48:21 well i can tell you that it won't load already 08:48:47 -!- NeremWorld has quit [] 08:49:17 for at least 3 reasons! 08:49:39 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:44 make it 4 08:49:54 Be right back, going to actually test it 08:50:02 good idea 08:50:02 -!- Vizerr has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:54:07 And done 08:54:17 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:04 -!- absolutego has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:55:06 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:58:23 Lightli: apparently it is any good, it has beaten dcss 3 years in a row as most popular rl! 08:58:58 -!- shirish has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59:46 It appears to work, but the monsters end up opening the doors and getting mixed up 08:59:51 How do I fix that, runed doors? 09:05:08 runed doors should just be for preventing autoexplore traps 09:06:10 so not necessary there 09:06:21 Then how do I keep them from mixing together? 09:06:41 Or should I just let them do so anyways for a higher difficulty? 09:06:55 seems fine to let them move around, yeah 09:07:01 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:19 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:47 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:16:14 -!- hurdos has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:05 zzz 09:23:07 -!- Sizzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:23:20 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:20 <|amethyst> edlothiol: thanks, I restarted sizzell and also added it to henzell's banned words list 09:25:07 <|amethyst> edlothiol: for future reference, you can kill $(cat /home/crawl-dev/run/sizzell.pid) and then run /home/crawl-dev/sizzell/sizzell.pl 09:25:43 <|amethyst> edlothiol: you probably have to start it from within the sizzell directory; it self-backgrounds 09:26:37 <|amethyst> faze: thanks for reporting it 09:27:26 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 09:28:41 -!- archl has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121129165506]] 09:31:34 |amethyst: no worries 09:31:54 -!- dieseltime has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:05 i'm all for funny names, but intolerance of race/sexuality isn't cool 09:32:36 <|amethyst> That's one of the things I appreciate most about ##crawl 09:32:57 <|amethyst> too many communities are too indifferent about that sort of thing 09:33:23 same, the community is very good about keeping the vocal racist/homophobics out 09:34:32 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:05 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:35:06 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:54 Is there anything my code for this spell must be lacking if firing a fairly normal beam from it doesn't actually make intelligent friendly targets turn hostile when it hits them? 09:40:08 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 09:41:45 -!- dieseltime has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:28 faze: vocal racists? Halflings suck! 09:44:28 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:44:36 -!- Jormundgandr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:45:02 also, fags are a nasty, nasty thing, and should be eradicated 09:45:07 (crawl uses en_AU :p) 09:49:03 kilobyte: unfortunately i am addicted to nicotine and i agree 09:54:04 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:58:08 kilobyte: Why do you hate halflings 09:58:30 why don't you 09:58:44 Eronarn: well said :p 10:00:55 Seriously though, is there some way I may be accidentally setting a beam that makes it not count as a hostile act even if it damages friendlies? 10:01:04 That comes readily to mind, anyway 10:03:02 Ernoarn: Because I hate no race. Except felids. 10:03:16 *Eronarn 10:03:29 But seriously, why are the devs considering the removal of halflings? 10:03:45 We get rid of them, we only have kobolds for the small race size 10:03:56 halfling flavor is... questionable 10:03:58 DracoOmega: nasty_to and nice_to maybe? not sure if that'd do it though 10:04:10 I think they are fine in gameplay terms though 10:04:26 since most stuff is nasty by default 10:05:17 Yeah, I think it's just BEAM_MISSILE anyway 10:05:31 Lightli: for the same reason MD were removed: too close to another race and trying to cut down the number of races 10:05:47 I don't think halflings are too close to kobolds, personally 10:05:48 Eronarn: do you know where are bh's comments on your github? 10:06:01 They're similar, but not THAT similar 10:06:10 (either I'm looking at a wrong repository, or I failed to turn on some option somewhere) 10:06:51 Eronarn: they are pretty well distinguished from Ko, and there's no "trying to cut down the number of races" thing going on 10:06:54 kilobyte: the notes are per commit: https://github.com/Eronarn/Crawling-Chaos/commit/20f4df339ccee9a646067923e1cd06f4ca4fba75#commitcomment-2391430 10:07:23 <|amethyst> FR: replace all the normal races with gimmicky ones 10:07:31 |amethyst: already on it 10:07:43 or at least nobody told me that there was such a thing that we were trying to do 10:07:43 |amethyst: halfway there by now? 10:07:46 by the way, felids are still terrible, if nobody noticed 10:08:24 how could you possibly not notice that 10:08:51 ChrisOelmueller: i avoid playing them 10:09:06 feak, die to a cockroach 10:09:49 Eronarn: yeah -- or rather, they should somehow count as half a race, as most characters are similar 10:09:52 I like felids well enough aside from a single thing: starting a melee-based non-trog felid is excruciating 10:10:07 but then, ha > fe, yet hu + ha < hu + fe 10:10:12 kilobyte: ah, better list of comments - https://github.com/Eronarn/Crawling-Chaos/commits/lava_orc_rebased 10:10:49 ie, they are bad on their own but are at least distinct from other races, which can't be said about halflings if we have humans and kobolds 10:10:50 anyone else please feel free to add some 10:11:28 halflings are quite a lot different from humans and sufficiently distinct from kobolds IMO 10:11:34 we still need another dwarf race :( 10:14:35 Bring back mountain dwarves, only make them unable to regen MP 10:14:43 bring back mountain dwarves period 10:15:10 i like halflings, and think they are distinct from both humans and kobolds as well 10:16:38 New branch created: lava_orcs (34 commits) 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1445-g981d31e: Initial implementation of lava orcs. 10(4 months ago, 17 files, 115+ 9-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=981d31ef5a04 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1446-g6e67f44: Lava orc Beoghishness 10(4 months ago, 5 files, 8+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6e67f443d338 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1447-ga094019: Lava orc temperature tracking and temperature effects 10(4 months ago, 10 files, 430+ 19-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a094019e7037 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1448-g446e38f: Passive heat, based on existing passive freeze, and restricted to lava orcs for now. 10(1 year, 9 months ago, 2 files, 36+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=446e38f0b0f9 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1449-gb488690: Prevent lava orcs from using scrolls or books when they are too hot. 10(4 months ago, 4 files, 26+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b4886901e1d0 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1450-g7a03964: Lava orcs have innate Stoneskin (and cannot cast it otherwise). 10(4 days ago, 7 files, 120+ 12-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7a03964a7ad5 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1451-g59b2d17: Lava orcs heat up when they enter a rage and cool down when they leave one. 10(1 year, 9 months ago, 3 files, 35+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=59b2d171dd87 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1452-g44b6d85: Lava orcs can swim in lava unless it is flagged as dangerous to them. 10(1 year, 9 months ago, 7 files, 78+ 19-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=44b6d8592c6d 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1453-g6bde7c8: Lava orcs have slow movement when cold and fast movement when hot. 10(4 days ago, 3 files, 11+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6bde7c8836d9 10:16:41 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1454-g404194e: Give lava orcs a heat halo that causes fire damage to nearby enemies. 10(4 days ago, 10 files, 128+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=404194e1ce5e 10:16:41 ... and 24 more commits 10:16:43 ha vs ko comparison: Ha is generally beefier (more HP, higher dex, much better shields apt), prefers long blades and slings, good at charms/tloc, comes with rMut; Ko prefers maces and xbows, better with other magic, is saprovore 10:16:52 reflavour halflings as dark dwarves, demonic/evil and alive like demonspawn, leave everything else about halflings the same 10:16:58 problem solved 10:17:22 make that sludge dwarves instead for obvious reasons 10:17:27 sure 10:17:45 and they are both quite different from other species by virtue of being in a different size category alone, which substantially affects usage of weapon, shield, and dodging 10:17:53 but like elliptic, i think they are fine and i'm unsure why they're up for removal 10:18:12 rename them to "small dwarves" 10:18:17 sure 10:20:30 LO which I just pushed include mostly squashing/splitting commits, ensuring every commit builds, etc, rather than a proper code review 10:20:54 i dont think halflings are really "up for removal" 10:21:03 Wait, LO is pushed? 10:21:08 to a branch 10:21:08 Does that mean it's playable or something? 10:21:20 How do lava orcs work anyways? 10:21:23 if you compile the branch they are playable 10:21:35 this was already possible before, they were just in a different repository 10:21:55 they can be cold or hot, which affects a bunch of stuff 10:22:02 tension, rage and lava make them hot 10:22:09 alefury: right, but i have heard them mentioned as being a threatened species :P 10:22:53 do LO gain rF during tension, etc? 10:23:11 stuff like that, yes 10:23:12 i want to try a LOMo of Xom and use mass inner flame to my advantage 10:23:27 i should pull and compile 10:23:32 they might always have rf, i dont knkow 10:23:36 ah 10:23:42 they changed a bunch of times 10:24:08 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:18 theres a fancy heat screen, it should have all the possible effects of heat on it 10:24:31 Eronarn: fancy heat screen is still a thing, right? 10:24:56 it might be on A! or something, or maybe somewhere else 10:25:26 -!- Mutt has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:34:38 -!- Mutt has quit [Client Quit] 10:34:45 What's better, cold or hot for lava orcs? 10:35:12 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:35:26 theyre different 10:35:45 cold has slow movement, so it is probably not very good 10:35:48 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:00 i have never played them, so i dont really know 10:36:41 Yeah, never be cold 10:36:48 i dont think you have much choice anyway 10:36:50 !apt lo 10:36:51 Could not understand "lo" 10:37:02 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:04 alefury: Berserking help apparently 10:37:07 *helps 10:37:08 hot has lots of danger around, so never be hot 10:37:12 sounds like temperature is going to be determined mostly by your tactics, and by things out of your control 10:37:26 Or by jumping into lava 10:37:40 -!- Nightmare is now known as Guest67123 10:37:54 i think you need some time to get used to the lava, so you cant just pop in and be hot 10:38:08 maybe that changed though 10:40:25 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:37 -!- fernandotakai has quit [] 10:45:02 -!- Rofaner has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:49:36 !wtf lo 10:49:37 Lava Orc 10:49:40 !apt lo 10:49:40 Could not understand "lo" 10:49:55 What are their apts, anyways? 10:50:07 I want a background with just l 10:50:43 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:52:04 alefury: yes, A! is still a thing 10:54:20 Lightli: their apts are same as HO with some tweaks 10:54:29 better fire, worse ice, better tmut 10:55:01 https://github.com/Eronarn/Crawling-Chaos/commit/36f87fb97fbf20f6ca27972a00cdbea0c84df2c8 10:55:46 Worse axes 10:56:01 yeah 10:57:08 We need more +4 apts in weapons 10:57:15 I think only merfolk get that at the moment with polearms. 10:57:22 you mistakenly posted that to ##crawl-dev again 10:57:38 oops 10:58:11 <|amethyst> !learn add lava_orc LO: Fighting: 2, Short: 0, Long: 1, Axes: 2, Maces: 1, Polearms: 1, Staves: -1, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -1, Armour: 1, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -1, Stab: 2, Shields: 1, Traps: 0, UC: 1, Splcast: -3, Conj: 0, Hexes: 0, Charms: -1, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3, Fire: 2, Ice: -4, Air: -3, Earth: 1, Poison: -1, Inv: 3, Evo: 1, Exp: -1, HP: 1, MP: 0 10:58:12 Entry text exceeds the maximum length of 350 10:58:58 <|amethyst> !learn add lava_orc LO: Fight: 2, Short: 0, Long: 1, Axes: 2, Maces: 1, Pole: 1, Staves: -1, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -1, Armour: 1, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -1, Stab: 2, Shield: 1, Traps: 0, UC: 1, Spc: -3, Conj: 0, Hex: 0, Cha: -1, Sum: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3, Fire: 2, Ice: -4, Air: -3, Earth: 1, Pois: -1, Inv: 3, Evo: 1, Exp: -1, HP: 1, MP: 0 10:58:59 lava orc[9/9]: LO: Fight: 2, Short: 0, Long: 1, Axes: 2, Maces: 1, Pole: 1, Staves: -1, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -1, Armour: 1, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -1, Stab: 2, Shield: 1, Traps: 0, UC: 1, Spc: -3, Conj: 0, Hex: 0, Cha: -1, Sum: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3, Fire: 2, Ice: -4, Air: -3, Earth: 1, Pois: -1, Inv: 3, Evo: 1, Exp: -1, HP: 1, MP: 0 10:59:12 <|amethyst> !learn add apt_lo see {lava orc[9]} 10:59:12 apt lo[1/1]: see {lava orc[9]} 11:01:06 but like elliptic, i think they are fine and i'm unsure why they're up for removal 11:01:18 I agree 11:02:31 -!- y2s82_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:04 they could do with worse summoning and bows and probably also a slightly reduced invocation to distinguish from HO 11:03:14 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:43 perhaps increasing spc to -2 and swapping hp/mp or something too 11:04:17 -!- Pereza has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:06:12 !apt na 11:06:13 Na: Fighting: 0, Short: 0, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: 0, Polearms: 0, Staves: -1, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: -1, Throw: -1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: 5!, Stab: 0, Shields: -2, Traps: !, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: 0, Hexes: 0, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 3!, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: 0, HP: 2, MP: 0 11:06:56 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:06:56 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 11:07:03 don't think +2 stabbing is justified also 11:07:05 <|amethyst> !apt fire 11:07:06 Fire: Dr[red]: 2!, HO: 1, Te: 1, SE: 1, DE: 1, Dr[mottled]: 1, Dr[pale]: 1, HE: 0, Ha: 0, Op: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, Na: 0, Ko: 0, Dg: -1, Ds: -1, DD: -1, Ce: -1, Fe: -1, Mu: -2, Vp: -2, Sp: -2, Dr[white]: -2, Gh: -2, Mi: -3*, Mf: -3*, Tr: -3*, Og: -3* 11:07:07 <|amethyst> !apt ice 11:07:08 Ice: Dr[white]: 2!, Mf: 1, SE: 1, DE: 1, Gh: 1, Vp: 0, HE: 0, Ha: 0, Op: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, Na: 0, Ko: 0, HO: -1, Dg: -1, Ds: -1, Te: -1, DD: -1, Ce: -1, Mu: -2, Sp: -2, Dr[red]: -2, Fe: -2, Mi: -3*, Tr: -3*, Og: -3* 11:07:53 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:08:21 ho's stabbing was supposedly to encourage distraction stabbing with beogh (or summons i guess) 11:08:50 which is weird anyway but yeah, seems like it wouldn't apply to lo so much 11:08:55 also orcs are mean 11:10:06 presumably LO would be not great with summoning if it burns its own summons 11:10:10 exactly 11:10:12 although friendlies reduce tension also 11:10:31 (if a god needs racial apt adjustments already to make sense) 11:10:48 could be really funny when an extra monster enters the screen, which turns on heat aura, which turns all your summons hostile 11:10:59 MarvinPA: We just invented a race that isn't OP with summoning 11:11:01 Well done 11:11:18 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:12:07 haha, trogbros: a raging ogre appears. you burn the ogre. the ogre hits you! the ogre hits you! Ouch, that really hurt! You die. 11:12:28 that is what miasma does currently, yes 11:12:47 and no it's not even remotely fun 11:12:48 also burning blood? 11:13:19 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:29 monsters probably shouldnt turn hostile from voluntarily entering clouds 11:14:38 <|amethyst> also someone should check what happens with LO^TSO and burning unaware monsters 11:15:09 may i suggest just making tso less stupid instead 11:15:19 or of course fixing tso summons to also abide these laws 11:15:42 (also, tso and shields of reflection) 11:15:51 that one is just fine 11:15:59 what? 11:16:04 no it isnt 11:16:46 last i checked tso didn't force you to wear such shields 11:16:52 at the very least you should get a warning 11:17:12 random penance for no obvious reason is bullshit 11:17:30 you know, trog doesnt force you to summon bros either... 11:17:46 its still stupid that they walk into clouds and then kill you 11:17:54 you're missing the point here 11:18:10 feel free to explain it slowly 11:18:12 -!- johnstein has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:18:29 you can take off a shield but not a mutation 11:18:40 you can just not summon brothers, too 11:18:59 yes, you could just sit in temple and not be attacked by bolts 11:19:15 but why would that be a similar situation 11:19:57 just because an item is useless (shield of reflection) doesnt mean its okay that it has huge secret disadvantages 11:20:19 the argument "you dont have to use it" applies to brothers just as well as a shield of reflection 11:20:27 you just dont accept it, because brothers are actually useful 11:20:35 -!- Lightli has quit [Quit: Naptime with my Saber.] 11:22:14 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:31 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:06 (note: my point is that its a terrible argument) 11:23:15 yeah that's cool, you go lobby for reflection and i'll do my stuff and we don't need to continue 11:23:46 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:59 okay 11:24:10 i just don't see any explanation in the way tso is stupid about lots of stuff that'd indicate why he should suddenly be fine with reflection 11:24:22 perhaps you find one and can convince devs :) 11:24:43 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:48 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:30:20 I just had autoexplore ignore a sleeping wolf spider 11:30:55 anyone have any idea why this would happen? 11:31:00 let sleeping wolves lie 11:31:15 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:50 -!- blabber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:31 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20120715100958]] 11:34:34 -!- Poncheis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:48 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:02 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 11:47:37 Autoexplore ignored sleeping wolf spider. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6503) by elliptic 11:52:07 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:52:09 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:52:51 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:54:06 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 11:58:07 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00:31 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:54 -!- Zeph has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:08 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:34 -!- lexackson has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20:24 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:20:25 -!- Psyknux is now known as Zephryn 12:23:38 -!- rkd has quit [Client Quit] 12:33:23 -!- mamga has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:33:59 -!- mamga_ has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:26 okay, autoexplore just seems totally broken... it is ignoring awake monsters also... 12:34:44 possibly something ash-related if other people aren't seeing this 12:34:53 I did test that it isn't just my rcfile 12:34:56 It was working fine in the game I just concluded. 12:35:12 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 12:35:14 ...which wasn't an Ash game. 12:36:08 it isn't happening all the time, but enough to be noticeable 12:39:43 I guess most of the time it isn't happening in fact 12:39:49 but once or twice a level 12:45:08 hm, lots of commits lately 12:47:34 ...there are some committed devs around. 12:47:35 <_< 12:50:53 I assume you "committed" as in "to an asylum" 12:50:58 er, you mean 12:51:02 maybe it's just me but the zombie generation code is kind of painful 12:54:52 no that's not just you. :) 12:56:11 s/zombie generation // ;) 12:58:21 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:12 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 13:00:21 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 13:07:14 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:42 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:15:12 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:46 -!- Mutt has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:25:11 what would this line do? it's in hangedman_creepy_crawlies "KMONS: 5eE = place:Spider:$ zombie"? i know it would place some sort of monster for the squares marked 5, e, or E, is it a random zombie? a zombie monster that fits the current spider level? 13:25:49 that fits the last level of spider 13:25:57 i ask because something is trying to generate a suppression moth zombie in a recent ticket; and the random zombie generation SHOULD refuse to make such a thing (since suppression moths are marked no zombie) 13:29:50 (and the crash said crawl was trying to place this vault) 13:30:55 a zombie from the monster set of spider:$ 13:31:07 i wonder if it's picking the monster first then trying to make it a zombie 13:31:13 that's what i was thinking 13:31:43 i have a big blob of "&Phangedman_creepy_crawlies" pasted into wizmode; generating dozens and dozens of spider levels with this vault, but i can't reproduce this 13:32:31 maybe it was fixed 13:35:41 i don't see any likely commit messages since the ticket went up (3 days ago) 13:37:23 and the ticket was filed against trunk head? 13:37:38 .12 dev branch 13:37:45 :/ 13:39:11 i am getting a bunch of "Infinite lua loop detecting, aborting." errors from wizmode ...; they seem to start popping up after regenerating a large number of times 13:39:19 probably that's something to look into, hopefully seperate? 13:39:26 detected* 13:41:04 o wait hold on um ... shit ... so i was testing on my regular crawl install by mistake instead of my trunk build ... let me do this properly before discussing more 13:46:31 well, then we've narrowed down the timeframe :P 13:47:32 -!- Dedagen1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:49:09 -!- Bop has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:50:00 well ... kind of. my regular install is .11 >.> 13:55:51 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 13:57:19 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:57:20 -!- Psyknux is now known as Zephryn 13:59:29 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:04:29 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:05:07 speaking of zombie generation, guess what's the reason mon-pick is still not finished 14:05:47 -!- www has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:32 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:23 -!- angry_conjurer has quit [Client Quit] 14:10:41 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:11:12 o wow; okay. almost immediately recreated the bug with the trunk build 14:11:23 bug narrow down: it happened sometime between the 0.11 release and 3 days ago ;) 14:11:26 narrowed* 14:18:20 -!- Kromgart has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21:48 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:25:08 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:19 -!- ZenArcade has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745]] 14:39:48 -!- Pthing has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:15 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:41:34 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:12 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:33 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:54:53 okay. this line "KMONS: E = place:Spider:$ zombie" is sufficent to cause the crash, though not every time. so that line is failing to check for non zombification somehow 14:55:58 blackcustard: I checked this a while ago: a place crashes this way if and only if moths of suppression are eligible for generation on this level, and furthermore, the crash always involves a moth of suppression 14:56:22 I thus kind of have a hunch it might indeed be caused by moths of suppression, not by Spider 14:56:49 (I never had the tuits to investigate it more, sadly) 14:59:16 -!- Fear has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:45 -!- codile has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 15:06:05 -!- AndChat23529 has quit [] 15:07:19 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:07:43 -!- Fear has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:55 -!- voker57 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:54 anybody here going to be at FOSDEM next month? :) 15:12:35 -!- Guest67123 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:13:17 not me 15:14:04 -!- yalue has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:14:41 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1567-g8d12a5a: Make orbs of fire crash less. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8d12a5a50dc4 15:15:03 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:18:40 -!- Lightli_ is now known as Lightli 15:21:14 the differences between the supression and wrath's monsterentry entries are minimal. you migth be on the right track. some problem with a moth of supression special case ... 15:22:45 ColdPie: here 15:22:52 thanks for the hunch :) got some things to look into now. will report back soon 15:23:21 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:23:30 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:23:45 ChrisOelmueller: cool. what project are you with? 15:25:37 ColdPie: unknown horizons, mostly 15:25:49 -!- johnstein has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:25 blackcustard: it's more a case of starting to investigate the crash but having an attention span of a fruit fly 15:29:39 i'll be hanging at the Wine dev room on sunday, otherwise looking around for interesting stuff on saturday 15:32:09 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:35:12 -!- Moanerette has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:35:42 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:37:39 -!- freefall has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:40:10 -!- hurdos has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:40:14 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:40:51 -!- freefall has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:29 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:44:08 -!- hurdos1 has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:13 Pain mirror colour overlaps with deep dwarf necromancer (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6504) by crate 15:53:18 "ERROR in 'mon-place.cc' at line 2084: invalid zombie size: small zombie for moth of wrath, player on: Spider:5" 15:53:56 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 15:54:03 i added the M_NO_POLY_TO tag. removing that tag from moths of supression makes the bug stop happening for them 15:55:11 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:50 http://pastebin.com/1iMh3bmK 15:55:53 Is it good now? 15:56:39 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 15:57:41 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:58:54 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 15:59:26 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:59:49 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:02:26 -!- tekoppen has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:04:13 -!- mamga has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:10:29 Myth-based vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6505) by argonaut 16:14:00 -!- andrewhl has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:54 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:16 -!- johnthebear has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:22:58 -!- mamga_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:33:46 -!- GON_again has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:26 -!- GON_again1 is now known as GON_again 16:37:02 september 4 2012; evilmike's commit. f4c549335.. "Give moths of suppression M_NO_POLY_TO" 16:37:38 that didn't create the bug ofc, that merely revealed; i think the actual bug is in a _very_ strange loop in mon_place.cc that i'm still picking apart 16:37:44 revealed it* 16:41:00 can someone else look at the do..while loop on line 812 of mon_place.cc; in pick_random_monster_for_place? i think at least some of those conditionals are backwards. it appears to loop UNTIL it finds a monster with the M_NO_POLY_TO flag, or a monster which is invalid. that function is called to place monsters for vaults, and when it selects the moth of suppression the crash occurs 16:42:31 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 16:45:13 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:34 you can read it as "while chosen is not an invalid monster type, and we don't want a zombie of size NOZOMBIE, and chosen doesn't have the flag M_NO_POLY_TO, and chosen's zombie size isn't the wanted zombie size, and (either we don't want a corpse-capable monster or if we do, chosen can leave a corpse), and we still have tries left" 16:46:47 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ben weg] 16:46:51 thank you :). that conditional was just a bit too much for me to wrap my brain around 16:47:02 although i'd have to check whether those functions return true or false appropriately 16:47:59 invalid_monster_type is in mon-util; "return (mt < 0 || mt >= NUM_MONSTERS || mon_entry[mt] == mon_entry[MONS_PROGRAM_BUG]);" 16:48:03 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:48:12 yeah, that seems correct 16:48:26 so !invalid_monster_type() is true if it is valid 16:49:07 i'm guessing that's actually so that we skip the later checks, which won't make sense for invalid monsters 16:49:13 and we loop until that stops being true; i.e. until what we've picked is invalid? 16:50:25 it's a shame C doesn't have do / until, which might make this a little more understandable :P 16:50:35 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:51:44 we loop until: chosen is invalid; chosen is valid and we wanted a Z_NOZOMBIE; chosen is valid, we wanted a zombie, and chosen has M_NO_POLY_TO; 16:52:11 chosen is valid, we wanted a zombie, chosen doesn't have M_NO_POLY_TO, and chosen's zombie size is what we wanted; 16:53:25 chosen is valid, we wanted a zombie, chosen doesn't have M_NO_POLY_TO, chosen's zombie size isn't what we wanted, we wanted a corpse-capable monster, and chosen can't leave a corpse; 16:53:55 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:53:56 -!- Psyknux is now known as Zephryn 16:54:17 or chosen is valid, we wanted a zombie, chosen doesn't have M_NO_POLY_TO, chosen's zombie size isn't what we wanted, and we ran out of tries. 16:54:46 (i elided a bit on the last one there, cause ugh) 16:55:30 ah okay, i see it now 16:55:43 thank you for spelling that out for me :) 16:56:07 no problem :) 16:57:00 spelling it out piece by piece like that is a good strategy for understanding code 17:00:19 if you think it's unreadable, you can rewrite that do..while() loop as for(;;){ if (foo) continue; if (bar) break; ...} 17:01:18 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:03:42 well, for(; tries > 0; --tries) 17:04:14 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:22 -!- scummos^ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:35 oh, and tries wasn't used before then, so you could move that, too 17:04:43 while (tries-- > 0) :p 17:04:51 or that 17:05:24 so many options! 17:06:06 my personal preference is "always pick the shortest readable one" 17:06:20 and almost always, the shortest is the most readable one 17:06:22 unless perl 17:07:21 for tries in range(100): 17:07:24 ... 17:07:26 else: 17:07:35 chosen = MONS_NO_MONSTER; 17:07:39 -!- blabber_ has quit [Quit: gn8] 17:07:41 ;D 17:07:54 yes, python ftw in this case (or in general) 17:08:40 actually, while (tries-- > 0) will require the following if to test tries == -1 instead of !tries 17:08:43 for (1..100) :p 17:09:14 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:09:14 -!- Psyknux is now known as Zephryn 17:10:20 well, hm. 17:10:53 i'd actually more likely replace "break" in that loop with "return chosen;" and then skip the if, just returning MONS_NO_MONSTER at the bottom of the function 17:12:03 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 17:12:41 but anyway 17:15:34 -!- calebengland has quit [Quit: calebengland] 17:15:49 What's next on the dev to do list with the Abyss re-revamp done? 17:16:09 everything 17:16:28 fr: fortress mode 17:18:53 That would actually be kind of awesome 17:19:58 Imagine having to keep 3 branches from spilling out into the dungeon as the Lair, or guarding the Vaults from invaders, or keeping the ecosystem stable in Spider... 17:19:59 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:20:45 digging too deep and unleashing zot monsters 17:20:56 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 17:21:37 lava orc fortress 17:21:48 -!- GON_again has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:22:27 Zannick: lava (orc fortress), ie, an orc-themed volcano or a hot bailey? 17:23:00 <|amethyst> FR: pump stacks 17:23:03 no, dwarf fortress where all your citizens are lava orcs 17:23:14 similar to felid fortress 17:23:24 and octopode fortress 17:23:28 <|amethyst> destroy the pump stack power connection on Dw:1 to cause Dw:$ to flood with lava 17:24:37 You feel a bit more experienced. x4271 17:24:49 that would be a neat gimick for dwarven factory, but pretty hard to randomize very much i bet 17:24:52 implemented as a switch with a global message when you enter the level, perhaps? 17:25:42 -!- Salivanth has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:26:05 or a statue-like monster with no attacks whose death is the trigger 17:26:35 or a wall whose destruction is the trigger 17:26:51 Zannick: I meant a quite doomed reference 17:26:56 <|amethyst> Lightli has a nice "too deep" vault 17:26:58 oh 17:27:14 <|amethyst> I half-seriously think it should have some reference to "adamantine" 17:28:02 amethyst: There's a 1% chance for a random armor spawn there to be crystal plate armour. Close enough? 17:28:44 <|amethyst> Lightli: usually you wouldn't have the armour workshops right next to the raw adamantine vein :) 17:29:02 |amethyst: like, say, set_feature_name("permarock wall", "adamant wall")? 17:29:03 The implication would be that one of the dwarves was wearing it 17:29:19 <|amethyst> kilobyte: well, lightblue would be the appropriate colour but it's taken 17:29:31 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 17:29:31 non-metallic, black, used as the material for building Barad-dûr 17:29:36 you'd put some smelting workshops right above lava in some cases 17:29:44 http://pastebin.com/ab6DvyBG 17:29:58 !!!! the problem is that the "!mons_class_flag(chosen, M_NO_POLY_TO)" test is ABOVE the "mons_zombie_size(chosen) != wanted_zombie_size" check. that allows the non-zombifiable but M_NO_POLY_TO moth of suppression to escape and be zombified, causing the crash 17:30:09 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I was trying to make it a Dwarf Fortress reference :P 17:30:12 we just to swap those two lines and the bug will be fixed 17:30:18 need to* 17:30:23 <|amethyst> blackcustard: awesome 17:30:27 |amethyst: yeah, and I was trying to derail it :p 17:30:33 <|amethyst> blackcustard: I assume this is in 0.11 too? 17:30:34 make some sort of renamed armour 17:31:16 |amethyst: i did a git blame, the last changes to these lines were long ago; so yes. but the bug wasn't revealed until M_NO_POLY_TO was added to moths of suppression 17:31:19 "TAGS: n" ? 17:31:29 blackcustard: makes sense to me 17:31:35 <|amethyst> blackcustard: there's another related bug on mantis 17:31:44 <|amethyst> blackcustard: it happened previously with other monster lists in zig 17:31:58 probably the same thing; i'll go look for it 17:32:30 <|amethyst> I don't remember the commit, but I marked it as related to the most recent spider:$ bug 17:33:13 <|amethyst> s/commit/issue number/ 17:33:45 <|amethyst> %bug 6070 17:33:45 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6070 17:33:55 ty 17:34:30 <|amethyst> there might be another I missed, you might search for "place" or "zombie" or "skeleton" or "spectral" or something 17:36:19 okay, i'll search for other tickets and see if this fixes them too 17:36:20 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:36:44 i'm also gonna consider moving the want corpse capable line too; because M_NO_POLY_TO monsters can escape that check as well, and that doesn't seem correct 17:36:48 <|amethyst> thanks for taking the time to look into this 17:38:11 np 17:38:31 thanks to all of you for helping me with it 17:40:56 -!- Datul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:43:28 Okay, apparently that bug in my spell code that made it not anger friendlies was neither the fault of my spell code, nor even a bug 17:43:52 The monsters in question were apparently just not smart enough to care 17:43:57 (I actually thought dragons were) 17:44:27 <|amethyst> aha 17:44:41 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:45:33 -!- Vizerr has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:45:53 %bug 5568 17:45:53 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5568 17:45:54 as well 17:46:15 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:29 ... how do i marked as related? 17:46:44 <|amethyst> not sure if you can, but I will 17:46:48 ty 17:47:21 <|amethyst> there's a relationships box between the details and notes, but the button to set a relationship might not be there for non-devs 17:47:21 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:47:27 It isn't, IIRC. 17:47:38 i certainly don't see it 17:47:56 <|amethyst> blackcustard: hm... "related" or "duplicate"? 17:48:16 <|amethyst> I guess really it's a duplicate 17:48:21 the root cause is the same, but the manifestations are different .. kind of 17:48:28 whichever 17:48:35 it is the same assert 17:48:46 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:49:12 <|amethyst> yeah, just the message changed for better debugging 17:50:41 <|amethyst> I marked the old one as a duplicate of the old one (opposite usual practice) because the latter has more information 17:51:24 <|amethyst> err 17:51:32 <|amethyst> the old one as a duplicate of the new one 17:51:58 <|amethyst> so now 5568 is closed and 6494 is where you should post the information, patch, etc 17:52:11 hmm, i guess the problem isn't which check is first, but that the M_NO_POLY_TO check is in there at all; even if it came at the end of the conditional it would still allow the loop to terminate with a non zombifiable monster ... well i'll figure this out 17:52:18 <|amethyst> 6070 is different so should be closed separately if its issues are fixed 17:52:27 gotcha 17:52:38 -!- flatmate has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:52:55 Lightli: care to answer that you meant by "TAGS: n"? As evilmike is not around, I guess I'll commit uncontroversial vaults like yours. 17:53:07 <|amethyst> blackcustard: should be || in with the rest rather than && 17:53:19 <|amethyst> blackcustard: if (not zombifiable || no_poly_to) 17:53:30 <|amethyst> blackcustard: split that shit off into functions, yo 17:53:34 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:53:44 <|amethyst> err 17:53:51 or several if statements in the loop 17:53:51 I meant "no_monster_gen" 17:53:56 <|amethyst> do...while (not_zombifiable() || no_poly_to()) I mean 17:54:36 i am not sure why we need the no_poly check for zombies 17:54:44 http://pastebin.com/z5E7Jiqs 17:54:50 <|amethyst> (probably no_poly_to() couldn't need to be a function, but the combination of zombie size, wanted zombie size, corpse capable, etc should probably be 17:55:21 <|amethyst> Zannick: no_poly_to (plus not appearing in mon-pick) is sometimes used to mean "shouldn't be in the regular game" 17:55:22 http://pastebin.com/zWQur6cJ 17:55:51 |amethyst: maybe that should be a separate flag :P 17:55:57 because the NO_POLY_TO monsters tend to be weird crap like supp moths and silent spectres? 17:56:17 <|amethyst> plain giants 17:56:23 http://pastebin.com/6kZnsRDK 17:56:30 but i guess if it overlaps 100% it's not worth it to make two flags 17:57:09 Quick question: How do I make an altar in a vault? 17:57:23 <|amethyst> Lightli: do you care whose? 17:57:44 look at other vaults; 's what i always do 17:57:47 Specifically Makhleb 17:57:54 Or Trog. 17:58:28 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:39 <|amethyst> KFEAT: _ = altar_makhleb 17:58:49 <|amethyst> C is random altar 17:59:09 <|amethyst> do not use B 17:59:22 B| 17:59:48 http://pastebin.com/ciXdQGBB 18:00:57 that's a lot of blood fountain 18:01:01 Well, that's one more spell (mostly) down 18:01:10 <|amethyst> Zannick: I think it's more or less 100% overlap between "don't want shapeshifters to polymorph into this" and "don't want randomly-generated zombies of this even if the creature is zombifiable" 18:01:21 <|amethyst> Zannick: I can't think of cases where I'd want one but not the other 18:01:33 |amethyst: *nod* 18:01:34 There's also a probably poor attempt to make E1M1's first room in there, but I'm not certain about that 18:01:46 <|amethyst> could maybe use a better name 18:02:06 <|amethyst> but M_NO_RANDOM_GEN isn't quite right because mon-pick itself can still produce them 18:02:18 <|amethyst> e.g. suppmoth 18:03:03 at they very least, the chosen monster having M_NO_POLY_TO during that loop should cause a retry, not an exit early 18:03:51 i thought supp moths got M_NO_POLY_TO because you don't want that aura flashing on and off; at least that's what the commit message suggested. having them randomly generate would just make spider and zot scarier 18:04:20 Going to have to rebase some of this stuff a fair bit before submitting though, I think. This one spell has 20 commits now >.> 18:05:02 i think that loop should be rewritten to have conditional blocks 18:05:14 btw, none of the zombie generating functions demand that zombies be made of corpsable monsters; that check is just for if the caller wants a corpsable monster for some reason 18:05:23 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:05:25 dunno if that's a bug or what. it's certainly a bit weird 18:05:27 because it's still confusing, even after having typed it all out 18:06:36 blackcustard: right, you can request a corpse via vault syntax, so that's what the check is for; i don't think generating zombies from noncorpseable monsters comes up very much 18:06:45 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 18:08:23 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:08:29 why does the loop exit early if the monster comes up invalid? is that just the function giving up? 18:08:59 yeah, probably. 18:09:10 you can check the callers of that function to see how they handle it 18:09:22 A crystal plate armour. 18:09:35 it may end up tripping an assert somewhere 18:10:12 S - a +0,+10 anti-magic executioner's axe (weapon) {god gift} 18:10:13 Oh my 18:10:24 lightli luck 18:10:46 * Zannick directs lightli in the direction of ##crawl 18:10:50 suh 18:11:14 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12:33 Zannick: gotcha. whatever it is i'll add a big fat comment to that check in the re-written loop 18:17:15 -!- andrewhl has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:47 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:20:12 sometimes it triggers an assertion failure, sometimes its silently ignore and the monster just isn't created. 18:20:17 ignored* 18:22:33 -!- Misder has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:23:20 -!- alefury has quit [] 18:23:24 -!- Findor has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:38 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 18:28:18 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:32:13 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:38:03 -!- ZenArcade has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745]] 18:38:16 amethyst: That's all the vaults I have for the moment, so yeah 18:39:51 tock 18:39:51 HangedMan: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:46:59 Did my experience cards give me any xp? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6506) by Runemage 18:48:07 nice not mentioning anything about their evo 18:48:17 and instead reading badwiki 18:49:08 reported a bug resulting from drawing from the buggy deck 18:50:12 http://pastebin.com/CCSTD96n 18:50:26 HangedMan, I think I'm getting slightly better. Slightly. 18:52:08 it's not too hard to move up from nothing yes 18:52:23 Zannick: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6407 18:52:37 it's a tiles thing apparently 18:52:52 At this rate, I may be slightly competent by the end of the year 18:52:52 if there aren't level connectivity problems with the potential teleport closets in airlock in D/Snake I'll eat a hat, also lair branch 98 is particularly ineffective 18:53:04 yes; that's the more important bug to fix, i'd say. 18:53:10 and same with the temple 18:53:32 twice-over with the blood fountain islands 18:53:57 checkpoint too 18:54:07 9s and 8s?! 18:54:09 =p 18:54:35 well, it does mean a little in spider but not really for the others 18:55:19 also the checkpoint vault doesn't actually have the tag required to make it a vaults entry vault 18:55:50 also you *still* can't tell the differences between things and slashes but at least they're semicolons and not commas this time 18:57:07 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:58:16 Fixing 18:59:28 What are we looking at? 19:00:18 do you prefer funny tiles players or bad vaults 19:00:29 Can I go with neither? 19:00:30 <_< 19:00:35 nothing, then :) 19:00:41 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:00:47 I enjoy laughing at both of those. 19:00:59 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6506 and http://pastebin.com/CCSTD96n then :) 19:01:02 Particularly where they intersect. 19:01:11 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Pacra] 19:02:04 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:09 clearly should post to tavern that tiny vault maker that requires no syntax knowledge to work with 19:02:12 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 19:03:31 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:04:14 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 19:06:17 Ok, I think I got it 19:07:05 -!- AndChat23529 has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:01 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08:04 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:08:24 HangedMan, when you're ready 19:10:15 -!- Misder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:10:46 zzz? 19:11:46 Grunt likes making bad vaults 19:12:03 st_, there's a difference between bad vaults and evil vaults. 19:12:20 I aspire to be an evil vault designer. :b 19:12:27 vaults that trigger bugs we wouldn't otherwise find 19:12:45 What did I break? 19:12:45 yes, ones that redefine 30 monsters are the bad ones 19:13:28 Grunt: oh, nothing. just had some subvault bug fun with serial vaults awhile ago :) 19:13:41 Yeah, I saw a TV exhibiting that bug earlier. 19:13:48 I'm glad that my vault helped find that. :b 19:14:45 said vault is bad and evil though, not just evil 19:17:23 -!- Red_Bucket has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:18:33 -!- lexackson has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:41 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:22:54 -!- Lightli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:07 -!- CampinSam has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:13 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:25:28 -!- Nivim has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:29:12 Since Lava Orcs are supposed to be made of stone ... might it be reasonable to call them Lava Golems instead, since I'm not sure how they have anything to do with the orc race? 19:30:54 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:30:54 -!- Psyknux is now known as Zephryn 19:32:29 -!- crazedpsyc has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:33:19 -!- DEWz has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:33:28 -!- crazed- is now known as crazedpsyc 19:34:00 that would end the beogh debate at least 19:34:36 +1 to any renames, although I'm not that happy with something golem based 19:34:47 (as these are mindless stuff) 19:34:52 -!- Lightli_ is now known as Lightli 19:36:00 call them deeper dwarves 19:36:07 lava dwarf? 19:37:20 would support lava dwarves for ending the beogh thing mostly 19:37:54 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:37:58 it just seems that a creature made of stone is far closer related to golems than anything living (but agreed it's still not a golem) 19:38:39 "hot stuff"? 19:38:41 (jk) 19:39:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 19:39:30 lava dwarf suggests being related to dwarves, which has some issues because their biology is pretty different 19:39:42 Magman? 19:39:56 they should start on d27 and have the dungeon reversed 19:40:26 heh 19:41:12 :) would prefer an entirely new name for a race made of stone ... 19:41:28 someone suggested "vesuvian" before 19:41:43 -!- staves has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:41:55 Too much like Venus 19:42:14 sounds much better than any lava foo to me 19:42:20 Mantle Men? 19:42:23 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:40 Lightli: ? Just the first two letters match. 19:43:13 AHA! 19:43:19 Mantle Elf 19:43:22 ... 19:43:24 Deeper than even the deep elf 19:43:33 * Grunt gestures at Lightli. Lightli burns to a crisp. 19:43:38 ow 19:44:11 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46:03 Igneoid (made of igneous rock) 19:46:05 -!- GON_again has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:47:17 !apt lo 19:47:18 Could not understand "lo" 19:48:17 "The word "igneous" is derived from the Latin ignis, meaning "of fire". Volcanic rocks are named after Vulcan, the Roman name for the god of fire." 19:48:49 * kilobyte sees something to annoy silly trekkies. 19:49:37 What about just efreet? 19:49:42 -!- rigourist has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:49:48 Efreets are fire, not lava 19:50:13 the abilities seem consistent 19:50:47 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:39 -!- Lightli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:51:46 Stupid random disconnects 19:52:29 -!- ophanim has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:52:54 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1617-g9dbaa2d: A new themed vault, Lightli's fault. 10(31 minutes ago, 1 file, 36+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9dbaa2da25d7 19:53:40 I also like "Pyroclast" 19:53:50 "Pyroclastic rocks or pyroclastics (derived from the Greek: p??, meaning fire; and ??ast??, meaning broken) are clastic rocks composed solely or primarily of volcanic materials. " 19:54:13 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:54:13 -!- fiyawerx has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:57:47 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:10 please stop discussing renaming lava orcs. they are orcs and have been conceived of as such from the start. changing the name is a lazy way to solve a non-problem 20:00:20 -!- HangedMan has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:00:35 what exactly do they have in common with orcs? 20:00:55 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 20:00:58 Most of the apts 20:01:31 stylish good looks 20:01:49 kilobyte: they are a race perceived as xenophobic and brutish that is in reality among the most noble of humanoids 20:02:11 also, reminder that i wrote more flavor for lava orcs than exists for any crawl race currently 20:02:23 so 'it's not flavorful' is a bad thing that you shouldn't say 20:02:24 xenophobia and extreme diversity doesn't tend to come together 20:02:49 Eronarn: ? I can't see any flavour here, just a name. 20:03:09 kilobyte: the concept of 'extreme' diversity is silly - orcs have no problem with orcish ghosts! why would they have a problem with lava orcs? 20:03:10 a name chosen solely to produce combo abbreviations which are words 20:03:23 ignorant as i am, i learned that crawl will always prefer mechanics to flavor 20:03:42 kilobyte: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:propose:lava_orc&s[]=lava&s[]=orc#flavor 20:04:00 lava orcs plus beogh don't go together very well on the mechanics side unless a lot of otherwise unnecessary and complicating stuff is introduced 20:04:36 ChrisOelmueller: 'beogh protects your orcs from lava orcs if you are a lava orc' is not exactly complicating 20:05:03 Eronarn: wouldn't most of what is written there work just as well with s/lava orc/whatever/ ? 20:05:56 elliptic: exactly -- that piece of text doesn't use orcishness in any way 20:06:04 -!- Lightli_ is now known as Lightli 20:06:18 (except for naming their god "Beogh", not explaining why they don't know about real orcs then) 20:07:04 kilobyte: why would they know about orcs they hadn't encountered previously? 20:07:36 a bit hard to have common ancestry but not even a clue about being related 20:07:55 or even that whole -kind of creatures- existing 20:07:56 kilobyte: um, human history much? 20:08:07 Why can't we just have them be lava dwarves or something. Bonus points for shutting up the people who are still angry about MD removal 20:08:18 that happened all over the place when different groups of humans met for the first time 20:08:27 and there wasn't even any magic, there 20:08:50 Eronarn: common stories, similar language, etc 20:09:21 you're posing them as different tribes of the same race, while their basic building material differs 20:09:53 kilobyte: see also different kinds of demons and golems and elementals and ... 20:10:18 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:11:18 this is silly anyways. the only 'problem' is beogh - nobody has expressed problems with the apts or orcish weapons or whatever 20:11:45 i've already coded a way to make them work with beogh, and it's as flavorful as any other beogh ability 20:12:09 Eronarn: the problem is that for something to be an Orc, it has to be *related* to the Orc race, but as your flavour text states these have never left the lava and hence have never had any contact with orcs. How can they possibly be related? (In a genetic sense) 20:12:37 Compare to dwarves where presumably mountain dwarves and deep dwarves both had a common ancestry but as some point the race diverged 20:12:38 mumra: that's a pretty arbitrary definition! do ice beasts have to be related to sky beasts? do they even have genes? 20:12:51 The word "beast" does not imply that they are related 20:12:53 what about nagas, are they related to humans? snakes? 20:13:12 No, that's why their name is not "Serpentine Human" 20:13:20 Eronarn: apts have no relations to theme at all (note how wildly different races can be both "elves"), orcish weapons are problematic as real orcs are far closer to elves or humans than to some living rock creatures 20:13:30 mumra: You missed hill dwarves as well 20:13:40 God, we've scrapped so many races, huh 20:13:55 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:14:04 :) 20:15:15 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet] 20:15:43 i'm leaving. hopefully people in this channel will be sane when i come back 20:16:08 -!- dptr1988 has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:16:09 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:22 Eronarn: We're all insane to begin with 20:17:02 sanity is for the weak anyway 20:18:00 -!- Lightli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:18:10 How do I stop these random disconnects 20:18:19 disconnect permenantly 20:18:24 :p 20:18:39 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Kicked by KickServ] 20:19:13 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:19:57 -!- kekekela_ is now known as kekekela 20:20:38 wrangling the code is quite a lot of work, too :( 20:20:53 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:21:18 -!- Misder has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:23:21 Eronarn: I think it would be reasonably to say "naga were the result of snakes magically evolving into a humanoid form". They're still biological beings and have a lot of the same internal workings (e.g. their poison glands are probably identical to that of snakes). But Lava Orcs are made of stone; there's no reasonable way you could, say, compare their biology to hill orcs because, well, they don't have any. They're at 20:23:54 And yes, I probably am insane attempting to analyse the ancestry of mythological beings in a computer game 20:24:15 mumra: about insanity, we already established that :) 20:28:48 -!- Lightli_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:29:09 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:44 kilobyte: it's probably a given for anyone who plays crawl more than once ;) anyway sane people are a myth, i've certainly never met any 20:30:17 Eronarn: I think my sentence was cut, last part was: They're at best a stone facsimile, which would imply they were created that way by an intelligent force? But your flavour seems to imply that they emerged on their own as a race in the lava ... completely separate from orcs on the surface ... it just doesn't seem to make sense 20:30:58 -!- haracha has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:52 -!- BurningLed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:38:23 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:39:29 -!- Dixbert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:32 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Quit: I've killed the senator.] 20:40:23 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:38 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:05 -!- kekekela_ is now known as kekekela 20:49:21 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:03 if orcs are actually super noble, wouldn't they happily accept lava orcs once they saw that they happened to have developed similar cultures? 20:50:12 Anyway ... it's not like the name is the most important thing ever ... but I think that a race of lava-dwelling humanoids is interesting enough without tying it to orc mythology, and could in fact have its own rich mythology ... some kind of "lava god"? 20:55:39 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:56:43 ashenzari worshippers ;o 21:00:46 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:01:49 -!- Ganrao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02:30 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:03:02 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1447-g4dec0a9: Lava orc temperature tracking and temperature effects 10(4 months ago, 12 files, 479+ 19-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4dec0a926376 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1448-g83058c8: Passive heat, based on existing passive freeze, and restricted to lava orcs for now. 10(1 year, 9 months ago, 2 files, 36+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=83058c8b4f0a 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1449-g09b2f21: Prevent lava orcs from using scrolls or books when they are too hot. 10(4 months ago, 4 files, 26+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=09b2f21588c9 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1450-g61389cf: Lava orcs have innate Stoneskin (and cannot cast it otherwise). 10(5 days ago, 7 files, 120+ 12-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=61389cfacadf 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1451-gedbafac: Heavily rework the lava orc temperature mechanic. 10(1 year ago, 3 files, 88+ 62-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=edbafac67ba2 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1452-g7f40cb1: Lava orcs can swim in lava unless it is flagged as dangerous to them. 10(1 year, 9 months ago, 6 files, 46+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7f40cb1dbc08 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1453-g8e5b3ad: Lava orcs have slow movement when cold and fast movement when hot. 10(5 days ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8e5b3ad9df55 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1454-gfc37d1d: Give lava orcs a heat halo that causes fire damage to nearby enemies. 10(5 days ago, 10 files, 124+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fc37d1d73062 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1455-gc891d8e: Lava orcs heat up when they enter a rage and cool down when they leave one. 10(1 year, 9 months ago, 3 files, 15+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c891d8e0dbad 21:03:38 03Eronarn 07[lava_orcs] * 0.12-a0-1456-g693ed67: Change text and display of temperature effects (box drawing characters h/t kilobyte). 10(9 weeks ago, 1 file, 40+ 9-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=693ed67d4f75 21:03:38 ... and 14 more commits 21:04:30 fyi on that zombie thing; i'm gonna patch that tomorrow. i lost focus a couple hours ago 21:05:07 blackcustard: great, this mess is something that blocks the mon-pick rewrite 21:09:12 -!- Jayrays has quit [] 21:09:33 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 21:19:49 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 21:29:37 mumra: lava orcs have organs and stuff! they aren't just homogenous stone 21:29:46 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:48 an earlier version had them with a lava blood ability 21:30:55 if i wanted some kind of golem race, i would've made them very different 21:30:57 Eronarn: organs that are made of stone, right? ;) 21:31:32 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:32:38 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:32:57 Eronarn: I just think that "lava-dwelling society of stone creatures" is a really fantastic and interesting idea on its own, i just find the orc connection really confusing and basically not necessary ... 21:33:01 made of bauxite 21:33:41 mumra: if it helps, don't think of them like 'stone creatures'; they normally have tissues that are:lava::flesh:water 21:33:42 (i agree that they're not remotely golems either and shouldn't be, i hadn't read the flavour at that point) 21:34:18 magma orcs are never below maximum temperature 21:34:23 so they have a consistency not unlike you or me 21:34:36 it's only when they leave their lava home that they turn into something more like stone 21:34:42 i just don't understand why they need to be called orcs !! when they've never had any contact or connection with the surface orcs ... 21:34:49 oops, *magma 21:35:43 mumra: mechanically, they have similar apts and the monsters (unimplemented) are much like orc monsters in role, band, etc. 21:36:44 as kilobyte said the apts are irrelevant ... and e.g. nagas, kobolds, or elves are also similar in role, band, etc. 21:36:47 the only dwarves we have are evil ones that can't heal themselves; lava orcs aren't beyond the pale 21:37:55 from a fiction perspective, there is a ton of scope in inventing a new race of creatures that evolved in lava, completely separate to anything happening elsewhere in the dungeon or on the surface 21:37:56 salamanders? we already have those 21:38:16 and they already a) live in lava and b) are weird and ill-defined 21:38:17 salamanders are less bad, but still really bad 21:39:03 -!- Zeph has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:39:05 mumra: they don't need to be totally new and really weird to be interesting! 21:39:18 it is also interesting to have two races that never knew they were related meet for the first time 21:39:21 there is *tons* of sci fi about that 21:40:05 Eronarn: yes but technically such races have met in some form, to be related they have to have been in the same place at some point in the past 21:41:08 Eronarn: i'm not saying it needs to be new to be interesting, i'm saying it's exceedingly interesting on its own without the connection to orcs... 21:41:48 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:41:59 -!- tsohg_ is now known as tsohg 21:42:16 mumra: why? plenty of creator deities have created multiple races 21:42:39 crawl clearly isn't all genetics c.f. demigods and demonspawn 21:42:47 ... and the orc connection just confuses me. can you clarify how these two related races came into being and ended up living their entire history in completely different environments, whilst still both having the same god, and without simply diverging into societies / races that were completely unrecognisable from each other anyway? 21:43:40 mumra: why do you think they haven't diverged? sludge elves are quite different from high elves in many ways (and yet are similar enough to still benefit from elvish gear) 21:43:51 see also deep dwarves 21:44:19 Eronarn: sludge elves are a different matter, I have no idea what a sludge elf is and I would prefer it to be something else as well. and mountain dwarf removal made the deep dwarf thing better imo. 21:44:31 ugh 21:44:46 sludge elves are awesome and if you don't think that you really aren't worth talking to about this 21:44:48 Sludge monsters! 21:44:51 IT CAME FROM THE SWAMP!!! 21:45:00 * Grunt flees. 21:45:09 they * 21:46:11 Eronarn: I'm not complaining about the game mechanics of sludge elves, I would just prefer it if it wasn't called an elf. 21:46:24 mumra: exactly 21:47:05 if you don't get why having a degenerate swamp redneck version of elves is a cool rejection of tolkienesque wankery, then i don't really want to talk to you about why they are called lava orcs 21:48:02 Eronarn: All of crawl's elves are a rejection of tolkienesque wankery. They're evil and eat each other. 21:48:09 More importantly, Sludge Elves were referenced in Barkley: Shut Up And Jam: Gaiden: Chapter 1 of the Hoopz Barkley SaGa, which is clearly the most important game of the past decade 21:48:16 Removing them *now* would be a grave sin 21:48:36 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:48:49 -!- Fhqwhgads_ is now known as Fhqwhgads 21:49:46 Eronarn: But you still haven't answered how the two orc races came about; are you saying that Beogh simply created both races? Why would he create a second lava race when the first one was perfect anyway? 21:50:56 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:04 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:17 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 21:55:18 Actually you did something pretty good there - you were able to describe very concisely and flavourfully what Sludge Elves are and what their connection is to the other elf races - they're their "degenerate swamp redneck cousins". Those four words convey a huge amount of story and history. 21:55:38 mumra: there are already two orc races: cave and hill 21:55:45 dungeon orcs are a different race from hill orcs 21:56:18 -!- AndChat23529 has quit [Client Quit] 21:56:32 But again, obvious connection. Can you describe in four words how the connection between cave/hill and lava orcs works? 21:57:37 mumra: 'orcs made of lava' 21:57:57 but actually, probably something like 'orcs dialed to 11' 21:58:09 Eronarn: That tells me what they are, but not what their connection is 21:58:40 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 21:58:43 four words is pretty arbitrary and hard though (what i said about sludge elves wasn't even four words) 21:59:37 i wanted to go for a vibe like 'orcs who conquered once and want to help their lesser bretheren do it again' 21:59:41 Well use more if you need to. I'm just genuinely confused about the backstory of why there are orcs on the surface and orcs in the lava. Whereas with hill/cave orcs it's obvious: some orcs went to live in the hills, some went to live underground, two societies emerged. 22:00:04 mumra: it's a common trope in mythologies that 'what happens here happens above' 22:00:39 or in the seas, or in hell, or whatever 22:01:10 you're thinking of crawl species as irl species but *several* of them are explicitly magical 22:01:30 -!- Spavven has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:32 mummies aren't a culture that split off of humans 22:01:55 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 22:02:39 think about what a caveorc would see when he sees the first lava orc: something that looks just like his species except studded with gemstones, surrounded by fire, blazing with power, etc. 22:02:41 Orcs are not exactly an IRL species to begin with. Yet stories and mythologies about magic still have to follow a certain amount of internal logic 22:03:34 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:56 A mummy is an unspecified humanoid species preserved and wrapped in bandages and reanimated: despite the fact this is all magical and fiction, I still have a definite idea about why they exist 22:03:57 mumra: the logic is that beogh made them both, or they are some orc transmuters who learned to live in lava ages ago, or they are orcs condemned to hell that swam out, or whatever 22:04:01 i left it out because it doesn't matter 22:04:29 what matters is what they are *now*, not how they got there 22:04:57 if we axed races because they didn't have an origin story we'd be left with demonspawn and the undead, pretty much 22:06:06 -!- Dixbert_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:06:20 Nonono, I'm not saying that. 22:07:03 (and felids) 22:08:49 -!- maahes has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:09 But I assume that, even within the magical world, humans, elves, dwarves and orcs all still evolved (or magically diverged) from more primitive ancestors. 22:09:24 -!- Dixbert has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:09:32 Felids are a witch's familiar that got bestowed with intelligence, right? 22:10:03 Things still have an internal logic as to how they came into being ... 22:12:23 Anyway; this conversation has become somewhat ludicrous and cannot possibly reach a useful conclusion at this stage ;) 22:12:35 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:13:20 -!- Wehk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:55 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:19:29 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 22:22:18 -!- Senjai has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:23:26 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:26:41 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Quit: I've killed the senator.] 22:27:15 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:56 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:37:21 -!- rkd has quit [] 22:38:42 -!- Dixbert_ is now known as Dixbert 22:39:30 -!- Twinge has quit [] 22:40:03 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:41:44 -!- Dixbert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:07 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 22:43:15 evening 22:43:19 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 22:58:11 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 22:59:10 -!- Rebthor has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 23:00:24 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:00:39 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:04:24 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:11:29 -!- Ashenden has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:12:47 -!- Sorbius has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:13:44 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 23:15:54 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 23:17:08 -!- Harms_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:25 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:24 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:33 -!- Sticking has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:31:17 -!- substitute has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:33:23 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:37:23 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:45:28 -!- eb has quit [] 23:53:13 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:12 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Quit: Crazylemon64]