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To perform this action, type /quit] 00:52:40 Elonewolf (L2 SpAs) ERROR: range check error (35 / 35) (D:1) 00:57:31 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:35 -!- andrewhl has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:39 -!- klz has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:43 -!- shirish has joined ##crawl-dev 01:34:36 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:23 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 01:43:15 -!- archl has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121129165506]] 01:51:50 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54:19 -!- Rofaner has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:56:38 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: being stupid, sunstruck, and Dead, flew into the rocketing FIN.] 01:56:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 02:01:03 -!- ayutzia has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:03:12 -!- Yermak has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:57 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: don't make 'em like they used to] 02:14:35 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:24:06 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 02:24:35 -!- lexackson has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:10 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:29:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:39:56 -!- dagonfive1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:48:45 -!- Fear has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:49:51 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:53:46 -!- Senjai is now known as Kat 02:53:54 -!- Kat is now known as Katreyo 03:06:36 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:07:28 -!- Pikkle has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:19:35 -!- bza has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29:13 -!- Misder has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:30:10 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:30:33 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:32:16 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:53 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 03:33:13 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:18 -!- chunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:41:36 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:52 -!- Jormundgandr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:46:27 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:46:37 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:46:55 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:38 -!- Katreyo is now known as Senjai 03:56:43 -!- stubblyhead has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:10:12 -!- freefall has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:11:07 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:53 -!- freefall has joined ##crawl-dev 04:24:04 -!- ponies has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31:24 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:58 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:36:07 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:36:54 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:01 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:09 -!- Nightmare is now known as Guest40487 04:45:29 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:45 zzz 04:57:31 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1611-g49a615e 05:07:31 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:46 -!- maahes has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:27 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:36:20 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:41:08 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:41:49 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:45:26 -!- sirtheta has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:47:10 "moth of suppression"? 05:47:14 :( 05:47:27 there must be a better name 05:48:40 -!- hart has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:49:09 -!- bakaflockaflame has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:33 -!- bakaflockaflame has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:56:31 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:06 There really isn't 06:08:28 -!- bakaflockaflame has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:09:36 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:53 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 06:24:05 -!- Zifmia_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:26:44 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:27:33 -!- Dixbert_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:23 -!- Dixbert has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:35:11 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:36:48 -!- bakaflockaflame has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:47:50 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:17 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:05:53 -!- Sab0t has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:11:21 -!- dagonfive1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:48 -!- Findor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:15:42 -!- Dixbert_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:33 -!- anubiscrapfoobis has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:13:39 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13:57 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:20 -!- shirish has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:29:47 -!- Zifmia has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:59 -!- ayutzia has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:35:10 -!- Zifmia has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:51 -!- shirish has joined ##crawl-dev 08:37:51 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:45 -!- Zilean has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:48:31 -!- shirish has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:03:48 -!- Gilihad has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:04:38 -!- shirish has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:30 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 09:29:54 -!- Rebthor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32:33 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:33:10 how about an "aura moth" 09:33:38 different instances could radiate different fields 09:36:20 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:45:03 -!- Sobieck has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:45:36 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:04 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:58:44 -!- Zifmia_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:00:21 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:00:55 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:59 freefall: chaos moth 10:06:54 Wouldn't that be better off as a chaos butterfly? 10:06:55 <_< 10:08:13 ^ 10:10:01 actually, do fields stack cleanly? i guess so 10:10:24 visually not really ever 10:10:31 unless you're using tiles 10:12:33 -!- anubisbafoobis has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:13:11 if a few aura moths were to show up you could have to deal with silence+suppress+glow or something 10:13:39 maybe a visual challenge 10:15:29 random aura monster is just a bad idea 10:16:12 -!- Dedagen has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:16:45 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 10:18:15 "moth of suppression" just seems so ham-handed :/ 10:20:10 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:42 Stupid behaviour of strong intelligent humanoids. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6501) by Amnesiac 10:26:59 -!- alefury has quit [] 10:32:54 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:36 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:42:00 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:49:18 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:54:08 -!- bmfx has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:22 -!- Chozo has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 11:02:09 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 11:06:05 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:57 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:56 -!- Senri has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:25:58 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:31 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:26:36 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:28:31 -!- ark____ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:34:48 -!- Senri has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:34:50 -!- Zephryn has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:36:47 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37:12 -!- bmfx has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:28 -!- Senjai has quit [Changing host] 11:47:17 -!- Gilihad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:56:18 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:59:00 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:23 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:03 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:19 -!- tigertrap has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:09:40 !messages 12:09:41 (1/1) frogbotherer said (18h 59m 26s ago): i've updated the Makefiles to make it work a bit better; let me know if you're still having problems 12:10:48 !tell frogbotherer your makefile fix fixed my build; the game still crashes though (android 4.2) 12:10:49 edlothiol: OK, I'll let frogbotherer know. 12:14:17 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:14:38 -!- Datul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:17:15 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:21 -!- simmarine has quit [Client Quit] 12:17:53 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:24 -!- knaveightt has quit [Quit: A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well] 12:24:05 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:02 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:33:19 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:09 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:35 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:03:07 -!- Pikkle has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:07 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:30 -!- Dixbert_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:17 -!- Zilean has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:07:49 -!- Dixbert has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:20 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:23:55 -!- casmith_789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:42 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:08 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:41:14 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:47:12 -!- ZombieChicken has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 13:49:00 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:51:09 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:06:16 -!- BurningLed has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:07:50 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:16 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:14:25 -!- burningled has quit [Client Quit] 14:14:28 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:35 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:19:01 should medieval age doors (like ones in Crawl) be considered airtight? 14:19:26 (wisp form) 14:20:12 kilobyte: better not to introduce weird cases, imo 14:21:41 actually, it's not being able to pass through a door that's a weird case here 14:22:28 grates? trees? 14:22:32 I dunno, why can players transform across holiness when monsters can't 14:23:19 HangedMan: this limit for monsters is puzzling, too, yeah 14:23:27 ... 14:23:40 that wasn't a "let's make literally anything turn into anything" statement 14:23:50 (I'm not proposing to relax it right now, yeah) 14:23:53 demon poly was bad enough 14:24:04 that is a good point about wisps though 14:24:17 but only because someone would need to come up with some reasonable alternate limits 14:24:48 kilobyte: i think plant<->natural is fine, but i wouldn't relax it more than that 14:25:31 -!- codile has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 14:25:48 nonliving may be a bit too encompassing, but changing that would be a longer term thing 14:26:38 nonliving is quite a clear category, except for stuff like orbs of fire or some eldritchs 14:26:57 kilobyte: i'd put elementals and statues into different categories 14:27:01 MH_ARTIFICIAL or something 14:27:12 they're at least as different as MH_NATURAL and MH_PLANT 14:28:47 polying elementals would be fine, or statues, but not elemental -> statue -> eldritch 14:28:54 oh, also, ancient zyme "nonliving"? Since when is cancer not a living creature? 14:29:08 making that eldritch would help, yes :P 14:29:19 please no more dual holiness though 14:29:19 zyme's desc doesn't include viruses, which would be the only questionable part 14:30:02 make a new X/X monster that's abominations but eldritch, make twisted res make undead only abominations 14:30:41 X/X 14:31:07 er, X/x 14:31:46 X/x 'eldritch horror' in abyss and scroll of summoning and summon XXX; 'abomination' with twisted res and in dungeon 14:32:08 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:32:22 maybe even make aboms non-X glyph 14:37:07 and what would actually make eldritch horrors of interest besides covering holiness silliness 14:38:03 -!- scummos^ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:05 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: nothing funny to say this time, hungry, cranky, gotta go to work and crawl is FAT] 14:43:37 HangedMan: that is the only reason 14:44:37 we can't, say, make the most common generic and moderately-weak enemy in abyss have some sort of thing of interest 14:45:46 HangedMan: wait, isn't that what i'm supposed to say 14:46:41 I was waiting for you to suggest mini-pan-lord aspects 14:46:57 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 14:52:43 -!- Zifmia has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:52:55 HangedMan: i want those for summon XXX, or maybe a greater horror monster, but not the kind you find everywhere 14:53:09 (though they do already have randomized attributes) 14:53:40 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Changing host] 14:53:57 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:54:22 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:45 -!- Prominence_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:59:33 -!- codile has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 15:00:20 -!- anele has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:00:57 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:33 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:54 -!- sirtheta has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:58 -!- mamga has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:13:14 -!- Guest40487 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:14:26 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:42 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:18:48 -!- Datul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:20:46 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:17 -!- voker57 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:24 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:33:38 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:33:54 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:00 -!- hayenne has quit [Quit: There is no dark side of the moon really. As a matter of fact it's all dark. The only thing that makes it look light is the sun.] 15:38:16 -!- hurdos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:55 <|amethyst> give (some?) eldritch monsters random per-monster resistances 15:43:27 <|amethyst> unknown to the player, but perhaps identifying the feature when it manifests 15:43:50 does that include ac 15:43:59 <|amethyst> perhaps 15:44:02 <|amethyst> monster mutations 15:44:23 you can just include it in the monster description 15:44:23 <|amethyst> bonus: having monster mutations makes the hellspider feasible 15:44:29 that will sufficiently hide it from players 15:44:39 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller: I was kind of thinking it should be something the player has to discover 15:44:51 see above 15:44:56 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller: not something to encourage the tedium of doing xv every time they see a monster in abyss 15:45:02 -!- BlackSheep_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:04 many players never discover xv in their crawl life 15:45:31 but wouldn't this just mean that they have to watch certain stuff *and* xv everything repeatedly 15:45:38 don't see where that is better honestly 15:45:39 <|amethyst> it will sufficiently hide it from new players 15:45:45 <|amethyst> hm 15:46:05 <|amethyst> monster autoinscriptions :P 15:46:06 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 15:46:55 <|amethyst> I don't see a problem with forcing people to ctrl-x all the time, just x v 15:47:18 <|amethyst> (and in webtiles you probably wouldn't even have to do that) 15:47:18 chrisoelmueller: on the other hand, many local tiles players very easily right click new monsters 15:48:03 are you now arguing for those players 15:48:33 no I'm saying clearly come up with something worse 15:49:08 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:06 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:19 -4673498896734689 to having to xv copies of the same monster 15:54:31 pan lords having this is bad enough 15:55:03 if you want random resists done well, ----> ugly things 15:55:05 <|amethyst> kilobyte: what do you think about autoinscription-style notes on monsters? 15:55:30 <|amethyst> can't really use colour to distinguish on Xs/xs thought 15:56:08 Fukdasac {distort, rF++ rElec rPois} ? 15:56:39 <|amethyst> why not? 15:56:52 most pan lords have a number of resists 15:57:11 might be still better than status quo 15:57:16 <|amethyst> couldn't show the information every time you say its name 15:59:55 -!- Psyknux has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:04:51 <|amethyst> could even offer a config option to turn it on for normal, non-variable creatures 16:05:16 would be pretty spammy 16:05:34 <|amethyst> Wouldn't expect most people to use it 16:05:49 <|amethyst> but if you're on a hugeterm you can afford spam :/ 16:06:12 -!- Rofaner has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:29 obviously only show resists in the targetting display when relavent like mindless etc 16:08:05 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:55 <|amethyst> I think once the infrastructure is there to compute such a string, it would be fairly straightforward to make options for when it appears, for which monsters, etc. 16:09:11 speaking of this, the handling of immune monsters is abysmal. Either the interface claims there are no monsters in view, or you get no warning whatsoever that your attacks will do nothing. 16:09:35 <|amethyst> since we don't really know (and I'm sure some of us disagree) what the best defaults would be 16:09:45 <|amethyst> kilobyte: yeah, that's on Mantis I believe 16:11:17 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 16:12:14 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 16:12:24 <|amethyst> For eldritch (and this could be a feature of the holiness), I was thinking to still have base resists depending on the monster, and when one is created some of those are increased/decreased by 1 (maybe with more increases on average for higher HD or something) 16:12:33 -!- Sobieck has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:13:05 -!- Cirk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:13:19 <|amethyst> Could even be one of the distinguishers of abyssal depth 16:17:29 <|amethyst> and it would be a neat effect of reciting against an abomination to remove those 16:17:46 <|amethyst> Zin'd probably prefer to nuke them from orbit instead, though 16:18:17 -!- BlackSheep_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:54 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: Ukončuji] 16:27:20 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:30:34 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:54 -!- Dedagen has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:35:13 I guess TSO might hate eldritch stuff too, although obviously not to the same extent as Zin 16:35:33 I don't think holy wrath should work on them, at the very least, for the sake of differentiation 16:36:20 not sure we need differentiation for the sake of differentiation 16:36:54 although we got full freedom here -- no realism to look for. Holy water does exactly zilch in RL... 16:37:08 -!- cptpickles has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:17 Is it really such a bad thing if not another extended area's main threats are universally vulnerable to the one thing? You could even argue that eldritch abominations are just 'different' rather than 'evil' 16:37:21 (I mean, compared with regular water. Dunking witches and so on...) 16:37:32 I mean, sure they're trying to murder you, but so are the sheep 16:37:50 -!- andrewhl has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:19 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:06 -!- GON_again has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:39:40 * kilobyte seems to be turning into greensnark, thinking about evil murderous sheep took me quite a while to recover :p 16:41:06 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:34 -!- animegrampa has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:25 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:47 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:53 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:31 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Pacra] 16:52:34 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:58:36 -!- amature_hour has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:01:50 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:22 -!- johnthebear has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:06:33 -!- beepboop has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:14:12 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:14:55 -!- Sorbius has quit [Quit: Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!] 17:18:26 "Evil murderous sheep" == tautology 17:18:46 -!- cbus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:24:51 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:27:30 -!- Dedagen1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:28:23 -!- sbanwart has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:32:52 -!- mivue has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:05 A sheep catches fire! The sheep bleats in terror. 17:41:13 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:31 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:48 kilobyte: i don't think TSO should hate eldritch stuff any more than it hates jellies 17:47:06 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:48:17 |amethyst: i don't like the idea of random resists for eldritch stuff... that'd work better as a gimmick of a select few monsters. even in tome, which has a *much* better display than we do, monsters with random resists are irritating 17:50:05 * elliott agrees 17:50:51 bh must be avoiding coming in now that i rebased lava orcs :( 17:50:53 well, ugly things are good 17:51:10 (as kilobyte said) 17:51:20 invisibly random resists would be very annoying 17:51:24 alefury: those actually change into different monsters though 17:52:05 i know, and i dont think another monster is needed in that niche 17:52:09 demonspawn are the obvious next up for it but '%mutation demonspawn %role' is way too long 17:52:33 well, the "demonspawn" could be absorbed in the role 17:53:17 slayer, blackguard, crap like that 17:53:17 bh must be avoiding coming in now that i rebased lava orcs :( 17:53:17 well, ugly things are good 17:53:20 was that intentional 17:53:25 ... no 17:53:26 -!- caleb_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:53:31 aww. 17:53:40 i didnt even realize it :( 17:53:58 alefury: that's true, but then it wouldn't be really clear what they are if they spawned anywhere they weren't the primary monster 17:54:07 descriptions exist 17:54:15 its not clear what a hippogriff is either 17:54:41 or an azure jelly, or whatever 17:54:43 i suppose that's true... and there is precedent in 'wizard' and 'necromancer' 17:55:02 it would be really annoying to have a bunch of monsters that share no words of their name but are all meant to be demonspawn and have similarities 17:55:16 if they don't have similarities then they should be considered separately 17:56:49 demonspawn is just so long a word :( 17:56:56 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Quit: Talk is cheap because the supply exceeds the demand.] 18:00:33 those would be very cool monsters, though 18:00:59 depends on the mutations they got, i think... 18:01:34 icy would be a great one (AC, passive freeze) - nice and simple 18:01:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:01:54 some other ones it's not nearly as clear how they would work on monsters 18:04:13 hellfire always works :P 18:04:29 some others, not so much 18:04:36 but no need to copy all the player ds mutations 18:04:57 and if some cool new player ds facets came out of it, all the better 18:05:24 alefury: i feel like 10 would be a good number... should be more than there are drac colors, at least 18:06:17 there is the question of whether to permit different tiers 18:06:26 like 'spiny' as a low tier 18:06:30 well, the mutations neednt be balanced 18:06:40 aux attacks make fine minor ones 18:06:48 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:07:04 they have some neat side effects, and more melee damage can be interesting on its own 18:07:16 monstrous would be pretty major 18:07:19 -!- SurpriseTRex_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:37 monstrous would be a good one, but i don't think 'fanged' or whatever would work well next to 'icy' or 'brimstone' 18:07:48 and extra resist from scales can also be interesting 18:08:11 augmentation would work 18:08:36 damage = damage * (1 + hp/mhp) 18:08:49 priority target 18:09:01 a monster that gets weaker as you hurt it doesn't seem very interesting 18:09:07 if anything, the old kind of augmentation is more interesting for monsters 18:09:09 cf. bears going berserk and stuff 18:09:17 I love berserker bears. 18:09:18 -!- Dedagen has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:09:20 it would work in a group 18:09:28 solo, not so much 18:09:38 I was glad when I realised that emergency spellcasting fix I did a while ago caused that to start working properly. :b 18:09:38 demonic guardian could also work 18:10:03 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:10:28 -!- mamga has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:10:28 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:18 -!- mcevers has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:18 -!- Nabski has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:18 -!- tekoppen has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:18 -!- Nivim has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:12:38 demonic guardian wouldn't really work well 18:12:43 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:12:43 it would just be +1 band size, really 18:15:58 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:16:52 so? 18:16:56 Well, the stronger the player is, the more reinforcements they get. So like, a monster that is actually harder the stronger you are 18:17:00 could be summoned at low hp 18:17:03 Theoretically? 18:17:05 or that 18:19:36 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 18:25:14 -!- alefury has quit [] 18:29:16 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:50 -!- Clatch has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:29 should fire dragon armour work while suppressed? 18:34:45 work howso? 18:34:52 you're not meant to get the resists but you're meant to keep the AC 18:35:09 I'd say it should, since it's a natural property of the dragon's hide rather than some magic 18:35:32 (yeah, dragon and "natural", but considering the land of Crawl...) 18:35:45 keep the resists but not the ac because it reverts to dragon hide under suppression :') 18:35:49 I sort of agree, actually. The only problem is that it might make the list of what is and isn't surpressed even more unclear to people 18:35:59 monqy: dragon hide grants rF++ rC- :p 18:36:19 kilobyte: yes thats why it keeps the resists 18:36:38 monqy: ah, I misparsed your line 18:37:43 turning armours into hides would make "sense" (as much as anything about suppression makes sense) but it'd be really bad for people wearing dragon armour so it sounds kind of awful 18:37:52 especially if you are encouraged to go pick up some non-dragon armour to wear for spider 18:38:04 Yeah, I agree they shouldn't do THAT 18:38:18 I think it's more that the magic RESHAPED the hide into armor, but it is not magical AFTER that 18:38:32 It's just wearable in a useful fashion, as opposed to being a hide draped awkwardly over you 18:38:53 fire dragon armour 18:38:54 A magical armour, made from the scales of a fire-breathing dragon. 18:38:59 Any more than supression should turn plate armour into a pile of plates and rivits 18:39:00 fda is pretty unambiguously magical I think 18:39:01 yeah 18:39:15 do branding spells work under suppression 18:40:10 monqy: that desc makes little sense 18:40:59 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:40:59 magically shaped yeah, you don't have a whole set of steel-strong-leather working tools on you to use in the dungeon 18:41:26 fr weaponsmith class 18:41:58 Forge god! 18:42:07 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 18:42:21 kilobyte: it makes more sense than suppression imo 18:42:35 that's all i have to comment 18:48:36 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Kicked by KickServ] 18:49:17 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:51:07 -!- kekekela_ is now known as kekekela 18:51:54 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 18:56:26 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:56:54 -!- Rebthor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:22 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:07:19 -!- Isvaffl is now known as Isvaffel 19:09:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:11:13 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12:51 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12:54 ??dragon form 19:12:55 dragon form[1/4]: You're a dragon now! RAAAAWR! Breathe fire! Be tough (+60% hp and 34% GDR) and strong! Level 7 Transmutations/Fire. Single-school transmutations for draconians. 19:13:33 I like the idea of electric form: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=88937 19:13:53 bh: bad or good? 19:14:02 kilobyte: good idea, I think. 19:14:09 that was not the question 19:14:21 I mean, bad or good form, not bad or good an idea. 19:14:27 oh! good form 19:15:21 do sky beast form instead 19:15:32 electric branded unarmed + flying + random invis 19:15:53 -!- Sobieck has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:17:09 sky beast (11I) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 511(elec:5-6) | fly | Res: 06magic(20), 11elec+++, asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 130 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 19:17:09 %??sky beast 19:17:13 electric golem (118) | Spd: 16 | HD: 15 | HP: 117-152 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1511(elec:15-21), 1511(elec:15-21), 15, 15 | 11non-living, 10doors, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(160), 05fire, 02cold, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 5415 | Sp: b.lightning (3d20), blink | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 19:17:13 %??electric golem 19:17:23 -!- Sobieck has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:31 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1562-gab2eed4: Jellies can't open doors, but they have a different means of getting through. 10(5 hours ago, 3 files, 12+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ab2eed4fb85a 19:17:31 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1563-g9540ac7: Revert "Make monster rAcid into immunity." 10(5 hours ago, 3 files, 4+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9540ac70afa4 19:17:31 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1564-g53fb3a2: Handle slight resistance to acid vs immunity. 10(3 hours ago, 10 files, 58+ 31-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=53fb3a225c38 19:17:31 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1565-gf5d745b: Rework and unify passive acid code, give it (and active acid) to jelly form. 10(52 minutes ago, 7 files, 122+ 158-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f5d745b671ae 19:17:31 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1566-gce74684: Wisps can't rot. 10(38 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ce7468407e46 19:17:41 aren't the low level forms pretty saturated? 19:17:47 urgh, why 19:21:20 balancing time, I guess. 19:21:46 is wispform actually happening 19:21:47 so what does acid now do to monsters 19:22:09 ChrisOelmueller: same as before 19:22:33 there are multiple different "befores" :) 19:22:49 the reverted commit turned rAcid to a boolean resist, which made it harder to have both partial resistance and immunity 19:23:38 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:24:06 so you suffer less damage with rCorr (amulet, preservation), Tiamat's cloak or by being a yellow drac, and can be totally immune by being a wisp or a jelly 19:25:07 after that commit, players all suffered partial damage, monsters none 19:25:25 oh, and also amulets didn't work for them 19:25:43 players suffering partial damage and monsters none sounds just right 19:25:53 with amulets working ideally 19:26:13 you mean, you'd want monsters to gain immunity by wearing the amulet? 19:26:17 yes 19:27:46 monster effects generally have to be more pronounced than player effects to be noticeable 19:28:06 e.g. a lot of bad player mutations you probably wouldn't even notice on monsters 19:28:34 berserkitis! 19:28:38 -!- ZenArcade has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745]] 19:28:39 teleportitis..... 19:28:47 Slow healing? :P 19:28:54 int-1 dex-2 19:29:03 i believe that the current monster rpois handling is flawed in such a way that whenever something reminds me of it (which would be the revert) i try to shout 19:29:17 DracoOmega: for example yes 19:29:24 berserkitis too most of the time 19:29:32 hell, even slow movement 19:29:42 monsters aren't very good at positioning 19:29:55 and i really, really wonder when players would notice a difference between rAcid-0 and rAcid-abit 19:30:34 ChrisOelmueller: the amulet is supposed to work the same 19:30:48 ??wispform 19:30:48 I don't have a page labeled wispform in my learndb. 19:30:51 (which currently means, half damage) 19:31:00 it does mean that for players, yes 19:31:19 how often do monsters get dealt acid damage anyway 19:31:29 monqy: oklobs 19:31:32 fedhas worship, yellow dracs, shadow creatures ? 19:31:35 what i'm saying is that for players to notice the effect on a monster it could just as well be 10% 19:33:03 monqy: need an acid damage spell in poison 19:33:13 you find what, 1-2 amulets of resist corrosion for game. A chance of that happening right when you build your oklob fort (again, a few times per game) are about nil. So let's not give surprising behaviour in that case. 19:33:36 "surprising" 19:34:32 ChrisOelmueller: the amulet working differently than you expect it 19:34:34 monsters having more steps for resistances players can only acquire 1 of is not surprising then i gather 19:35:00 monster _jellies_ obviously should resist acid completely 19:35:17 (or oklobs, or...) 19:35:29 and as a player, i would expect *to notice* when a monster is wearing that amulet, not for it to have the exact same properties that it will have on me 19:35:54 not sure it is even worthwhile for monsters to pick up/use rCorr amulets 19:35:58 indeed, i wasn't arguing about acid immunity being a thing for monsters 19:36:03 sinc eeven with full resistance it would be kind of hard to notice unless you are with fedhas 19:36:06 but about the intermediate step being useless 19:36:32 -!- y2s82 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:36:53 we've all discussed this some time ago too when |amethyst made the change so i'm a bit tired of repeating arguments 19:37:12 just not very happy about the revert, that's it 19:37:51 ChrisOelmueller: the only reason he stated is that jellies should not suffer any damage 19:38:11 which is what I agree with 19:38:13 FR: Tio de Nadal monster 19:38:27 yes at this point i got what you are trying to say 19:38:42 and i also won't agree with it anytime soon so i'll stop it at that :) 19:39:28 also, there was no jelly form then, and no associated code issues 19:40:01 it's still not sure the form will make it into the game, though 19:45:25 Eronarn: where is your rebased lorc repo? 19:45:53 bh: the problem is not in rebasing itself, but in a huge pile of commits that edit each other 19:46:05 I mean, do something then remove it 19:46:25 kilobyte: maybe he should just squash the whole thing :) 19:46:50 bh: that's what I was trying to do 19:46:51 bh: on my github 19:47:00 it's branch lava_orc_rebased, i think 19:47:17 hrm, lemme check how it fares with my edits 19:47:43 kilobyte: it's == to the prior diff 19:47:51 just squashed and reordered commits, no changes 19:47:56 so it should be cherrypickable 19:48:29 most of the remaining smaller commits are more recent ones 19:48:45 Eronarn: I'm going to comment on github in that case. 19:49:00 I'm ambivalent about lorcs worshipping beogh. 19:50:04 beogh supports all orc species (cave, hill, and now lava) 19:50:55 -!- Duke- has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:51:16 Sure, but I'm looking at this from a balance perspective rather than a flavor perspective. 19:51:29 flavour is bad too 19:52:06 -!- caleb_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:52:51 bh: balance? 19:53:20 sure. Priests get permanent water walking. 19:53:47 kilobyte: i actually considered making lava orcs the superiorest race: upgrade normal orcs to lava orcs as a beogh gift 19:54:01 bh: how is that a balance problem 19:54:05 I'll disable Beogh for now, as discussed a few months ago 19:54:30 Eronarn: currently tengu are the only race that make liquids irrelevant. 19:54:34 there's enough of wild testing for the base race, testing that with iffy interactions with a god would be a waste of tester time 19:55:09 bh: boots of flying, the spell 19:55:09 -!- Pthing has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:12 bh: i hope you aren't trying to draw an equivalency... 'liquids' is different from 'lava'; lorc priests just ignore water (not lava), and all orc priests do that 19:55:27 liquid irrelevance worshipping one specific god at high piety as one specific race is really marginal from a balance perspective... 19:56:00 * kilobyte really wishes lava orcs were named something else. 19:56:10 kilobyte: yeah that's fine... i think on balance letting lava orcs worship beogh as coded is the best option but it's not that important, very few people even play beogh 19:56:26 how about not letting hill orcs worship beogh either :P 19:56:28 bh: beogh giving out water walking is purely a flavour thing 19:56:36 having the option to worship beogh is really sad 19:56:44 and definitely not a balance issue in any way 19:56:46 elliptic: it makes swamp easy 19:56:48 beogh giving out water walking is awful anyways 19:56:51 it should be cut 19:56:54 I don't think tester time is that limited, though; quite a few people are beogh fans and I suspect they'd be interested in trying a new beogh race 19:56:55 also beogh shouldn't be an evil god 19:56:58 trunk is pretty popular 19:57:04 except that it justifies keeping beogh which might be an issue 19:57:26 bh: anyway compare that benefit of beogh to the benefits of any other god 19:57:39 like being able to ignore liquids is nothing compared to, e.g. what jiyva gives you 19:57:45 (ok any other god but chei and arguably xom) 19:57:52 "i can walk on water" vs "i can not die" 19:57:57 It's not like flight is exactly hard to come by anyway 19:58:01 bh: it is a little useful in swamp/shoals, yes... but it isn't meant to be a major attraction of the god, especially when doing something that angers beogh while waterwalking is instadeath :) 19:58:10 * kilobyte casts aspersions on my ISP, their mothers and their dogs' mothers. Messing with git via proxies is no fun. 19:58:21 Eronarn: racism is not evil? 19:58:23 elliptic: I'm pretty sure something like 2 HOPrs have drowned 19:58:26 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:33 kilobyte: not if it's against slimy humans! 19:58:37 the water walking is just a stupid reference to jesus and there is 0 gameplay or flavor reason for it otherwise 19:58:41 Eronarn: and note that TSO defines evil as "not being in our club", too 19:58:50 bh: That's probably a greater precentage of people than have drowned using other methods of going over deep water! 19:59:06 DracoOmega: evokables in Hive... 19:59:13 -!- Dixbert_ is now known as Dixbert 19:59:14 kilobyte: Percentagewise 19:59:20 DracoOmega: that used to have its own entry on multiple wikis/etc 19:59:20 bh: well, yes, but they drowned more amusingly than most drown deaths :P 19:59:25 kilobyte: plenty of gods give piety for killing TSOites, not just beogh; racism isn't any more evil than mass slaughter (trog, okawaru) 19:59:37 A heck of a lot more people use evokables to cross water than use waterwalking 19:59:47 it's absurd to say that beogh is an evil god if trog isn't 20:00:00 * bh reviews some code 20:00:11 Evil is somewhat arbitrarily defined in Crawl. This is nothing new. 20:00:23 beogh is evil because no hopr of zin :( 20:00:51 bh: one of the hopr drowning deaths was elliptic abandoning beogh at least 20:00:53 DracoOmega: if there is some reason from principles to say beogh is evil, that's fine. but there isn't. and because there isn't, it's arbitrary, which means we can do whatever we want to modify it 20:00:55 unless that was some other ho of beogh 20:01:03 yay comments like "Please squash into 419e0851040b7bf3af0cf1e1b7eef7aabd746d08." 20:01:09 beogh is evil because worshipping beogh means managing ally equipment 20:01:22 elliptic: <3 20:01:39 keep in mind that making beogh non-evil would be a zin nerf 20:01:45 anyway disabling LO of beogh for now sounds reasonable to me 20:01:50 Eronarn: I suppose I have no strong feelings other than the fact that I am used to it 20:02:00 I can't imagine it affects anything of consequence 20:02:02 -!- Rebthor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:02:36 Well, I suppose a hill orc healer wanting to swap to Beogh, but... why? 20:02:41 and making beogh non-evil wouldn't do much other than make recite even worse, yes 20:03:19 DracoOmega: because they want to be a true hopr??? 20:03:35 all assuming that those start with zin soon 20:03:48 -!- mcevers has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:03:51 -!- sirtheta has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:04:04 make beogh more exciting but mostly save many people from ally management 20:04:31 Eronarn: what is the scale for temperature? 20:04:47 bh: 0 to 15, i think? something like that 20:05:09 but it may be worth increasing that with the new temp-swings-by-max-of-1 rule 20:06:02 there are several parameters to tweak for temperature 20:06:51 bh: by the way, what would you recommend? player.cc instead of mon-stuff? (it ended up there because i started with some monster lorc stuff and it never moved anywhere else) 20:07:40 lorc.cc? 20:07:56 more files? noooo 20:08:54 files are only a problem if you shove them all into one directory with no structure 20:09:43 why do lorcs have conservation i? 20:09:51 * kilobyte casts aspersion on his ISP, their mothers, and their dogs' mothers. Going through proxies is no fun with git, and neither is using IPvCrap tunnels. 20:10:08 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:22 kilobyte: need a machine to tunnel through? 20:10:33 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 20:10:46 bh: oh, good catch - i'm not sure about how to best model lorcs not losing flammable items in lava. i think a limited-to-fire but total conservation could be best... but maybe nothing would work better 20:11:03 bh: do I look like disconnected? I'm just complaining about doing multiple steps every operation. 20:11:24 (since it took so long to get to this point, there's definitely stuff in there that is problematic or that i even forgot doing) 20:11:36 if lorc scrolls burned in lava i'd just never use the ability 20:11:54 kilobyte: sure, but if you just want to port-forward git to avoid your isp being wankers 20:11:57 elliott: oh, no, that definitely won't happen - i mean maybe just let them not burn in lava but still burn from fire attacks 20:12:06 Eronarn: can lorcs read scrolls while hot? 20:12:08 seems reasonable 20:12:30 bh: not at max temp (incl. in lava), yes otherwise 20:12:38 that can be changed though 20:12:45 previously i had the no-scroll temp be at a lower temperature 20:13:02 -!- Bef has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:35 bh: there's tens of ways to do so, it's just about extra steps 20:14:44 bh: i'll get to the lorc comments tomorrow (anyone else is free to leave them on github) 20:15:09 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:48 -!- Poncheis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:54 Eronarn: I might get bored and implement lightning form. Just a warning 20:18:43 * kilobyte dons grounded longjohns. 20:18:54 bh: do sky beast form! i want it for a new stalker book... 20:19:44 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:20:54 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:20:57 -!- Findor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:21:03 Eronarn: suggest lorcs are always able to read scrolls 20:21:45 elliott: what if they could always read a scroll but carried a chance of destroying it? 20:22:25 sounds annoying 20:22:42 -!- Pereza has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:22:53 elliptic, MarvinPA, whoever: would you care to take a look at bad_forms balance? Whether they don't leave the player in too dire straits, whether they're boring, encourage scumming, or perhaps are too unbad. 20:23:09 forms other than jelly could perhaps even be good to go 20:23:40 (jelly needs numbers for eating, at least -- and whether to give hp, split fellow slimes, etc) 20:24:41 I'm not sure how much the ability to run and teleport is worth: obviously a lot, but I might have given tree too much in return 20:25:01 (easy balancing: slowing all actions like statue, etc) 20:26:12 * kilobyte grabs the Commit Pumpkin for lava_orcs, if you're doing anything please make it cherry-pickable. 20:27:25 commit pumpkin? Is that like a mutex? 20:27:47 bh: old Perl lore 20:28:00 from before proper version control 20:31:16 -!- BurningLed has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:31:23 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:32:18 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:05 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:20 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1612-gd41e40e: Get rid of a lot of references to secret doors. 10(5 hours ago, 13 files, 25+ 34-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d41e40e4ca64 20:33:20 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1613-ga00be3e: Remove "magical" from dragon armour description. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 25+ 25-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a00be3e02482 20:33:20 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1614-gc1d6f2d: Don't claim that potions of decay "start" rot. 10(84 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 9-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c1d6f2dc47bc 20:33:25 kilobyte: I worked for a guy who, in 2008, insisted on using CVS. 20:34:02 doesn't FreeBSD still use CVS for everything? 20:34:30 tree form is like megachei 20:34:46 fr chei gives ac 20:34:46 so if it were to be a real form it would have to give benefits that are like 10x better than chei's to be good 20:34:52 presumably it doesn't have to be that good since it is meant to be a bad form 20:35:05 but I'd assume the bonuses should be large if it's not meant to just kill you 20:35:22 Our indentation in switch statements is inconsistent. Should we prefer indenting cases or not indenting them? 20:35:28 elliott: massive GDR while not hindering spellcasting, for one 20:35:31 elliott: not being able to read scrolls is meant to be a major drawback at high tension (which is otherwise almost exclusively good) 20:36:02 bh: they're not indented in a good majority of cases 20:36:14 k 20:36:34 which makes braces really ugly and misleading 20:41:18 -!- Sobieck has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:46:49 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 20:47:42 -!- dptr1988 has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:48:32 Beastly Appendage - Claws - Verbiage on message for Octopodes (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6502) by battaile 20:48:50 i didn't even realize they could get claws 20:49:10 -!- DainDwarf has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 20:49:19 they can't now 20:49:27 as in 20:49:30 anyone casting beastly appendage 20:49:45 good 20:53:04 -!- GON_again has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:45 Eronarn: should lorcs heat up when they take fire damage? 21:00:06 -!- HangedMan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:33 bh: i decided against that... the way i see it, fire damage may cause a lot of, er, damage - but it doesn't impart a lot of heat 21:01:52 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:16 lava orcs are made of stone, and stone takes a *long* time to heat up 21:03:34 its specific heat is not that high, but it doesn't combust or boil like the materials at higher specific heat 21:04:37 same thing with cold. you might end up cracking a lava orc's hide if you super heat/cool it, but it won't affect its overall temperature by a noticeable amount 21:04:58 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 21:05:26 Eronarn: lava orcs shouldn't be able to worship yred then :P 21:06:05 elliott: lava orcs have organs and stuff. they are just made out of stony materials 21:06:45 it would be feasible to make them MH_NONLIVING but i felt that would be rather divergent in many ways for no real benefit 21:07:21 looks like they're not anything close to mammals 21:08:25 kilobyte: better set Dr to MH_NONLIVING too 21:10:02 I don't see anyone claiming draconians or octopodes are mammals :p 21:10:24 draconians are clearly aves. And octopodes are cephlopods 21:11:31 kilobyte: i really don't think this is the channel to talk about lava orc placentas 21:11:38 that seems more like a tavern discussion 21:12:12 #include "math.h", bah 21:12:22 kilobyte: already commented on it :) 21:13:11 making sure every commit build helps with massaging the code a lot 21:13:19 (and is a lot of initial work) 21:13:45 03dolorous 07* 0.12-a0-1615-gd96bceb: Tweak wording. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d96bcebae1f4 21:15:31 Eronarn: some of the math is a bit wonky and there are a couple of WTFs. There appears to be an inoordinate amount of code surrounding properly handling stone skin. 21:16:16 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 21:16:32 bh: yeah, that was one of the first things i coded 21:16:52 I don't have any serious objections to the implementation, but there are stylistic objections. I'd rather resolve those amicably before I merge it. 21:17:05 initial LO code was much messier than later LO code 21:17:14 but anything i haven't touched since then is still messy... 21:17:28 looks like if a pikel slave gets shafted, it will be hostile even if you kill pikel 21:17:52 arguably they should turn neutral because they're away from pikel's spell or something?? 21:17:55 when shafted I mean 21:18:05 that would make sense too 21:18:11 bh: i figured the revisions would be fairly in-depth, that's why i was hoping to get them done before i started my new job :) 21:19:48 clean up the heat math. It's yucky. You can probably simplify the stone skin stuff. 21:21:45 i'm thinking it may even be better to just make it a mutation - less issues with when it applies, purple draconian breath, whatever 21:22:09 -!- snafu has quit [Client Quit] 21:23:12 sure, forbid them from casting stoneskin and have a mutation. 21:23:53 i guess maybe not a real mutation because it would block scales, but just a fake one showing up on the screen 21:24:01 anyways, i have all tomorrow to do stuff like that 21:25:05 why would a racial mutation block scales? 21:28:19 -!- ZenArcade has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745]] 21:31:23 -!- Moanerette has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:31:29 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:32:21 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:20 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:48 -!- Datul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:42:12 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:47:52 -!- MattyDub has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:47:55 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 21:48:19 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:48:57 * kilobyte reformats some commit messages, too, they'd be unreadable on shortlog. 21:49:55 -!- Duke- has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:53:48 storing crawl and CCACHE_DIR on tmpfs is tempting :p 21:56:14 -!- nfogravity has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:57:18 -!- klz has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:59:15 03kilobyte 07[stone_soup-0.11] * 0.11.1-35-g9f67e61: Fix octopodes getting claws on their non-existing hands. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9f67e61bdea7 22:00:03 <|amethyst> Eronarn: one thing to keep in mind regarding that: it's actually probably *less* code to add a mutation than a pseudo-mutation... that might be less true if it's a scales-type mutation that needs a custom description in each of the three places, but I'd still consider making it real 22:00:54 -!- Rebthor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:02:47 <|amethyst> Eronarn: (Three places being output.cc, mutation.cc, and the code in player.cc that actually handles the effect of the mutation) 22:04:34 <|amethyst> kilobyte: don't mind the revert in the branch, but why'd you make it one-level in mrd in the first place? oversight? 22:07:34 it _had_ multiple levels in the past, lemme find when it got changed 22:07:49 <|amethyst> kilobyte: it was when you refactored the mons_resist_def stuff 22:10:38 15cafadc is the main commit that made it binary; I then assumed it's binary during the reworking as I lacked insight that this will be a limitation later 22:11:07 (as no one expected insubstantial or acid-based players then) 22:11:19 <|amethyst> kilobyte: that one's for players 22:11:38 hmm, actually, monster wisps do not ignore acid 22:11:44 @??insubstantial wisp 22:11:44 insubstantial wisp (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 6-18 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1206(blink self) | 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 80 | Sp: blink | Sz: tiny | Int: plant. 22:12:03 <|amethyst> they probably should :) 22:12:59 <|amethyst> or at least rAcid++ 22:13:48 <|amethyst> would the increased simplicity be worth it (perhaps at the space of a few bytes per monster) to make all resists three-level (though perhaps with different scaling)? 22:13:56 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Quit: I've killed the senator.] 22:14:02 they also should get rPois+++ if every single undead is going to get rPois+++ 22:14:17 I kind of agree with elliptic's change of making the resistance one level (functionally) 22:14:27 what about immunities? 22:14:29 monster rPois is messed up imo 22:14:47 <|amethyst> kilobyte: with +++ = immunity for monsters 22:14:52 <|amethyst> for all resists 22:14:58 * kilobyte thinks it may be good to always represent immunity as res_foo() == 4 22:15:03 <|amethyst> hm 22:15:05 <|amethyst> yeah 22:15:16 it'd be same for players 22:15:46 Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1615-gd96bceb 22:15:50 <|amethyst> well, what about monsters with +++ immunity right now? 22:15:57 <|amethyst> increase all those to ++++ 22:15:58 <|amethyst> ? 22:16:05 yeah 22:16:17 <|amethyst> what would have +++ any more? 22:16:26 no autokill so rX---- is not needed 22:16:37 |amethyst: at this moment, players 22:16:52 <|amethyst> one problem is that it nerfs things like jewelery and ego armour for monsters 22:17:06 <|amethyst> unless you just have that skip 3 when it increments :) 22:17:27 you mean, there's any reasonable chance a monster picks up three +resist items? 22:17:44 <|amethyst> aren't there some things that already have ++ or + and pick up armour 22:17:47 <|amethyst> also, fannar 22:18:03 I don't know what would be simplest from the coding standpoint, but I do think that no resist other than fire/cold should need more than three levels - nonresistant, resistant, and immune 22:18:05 <|amethyst> (though honestly I never really saw the problem with giving him innate rC) 22:18:19 <|amethyst> elliptic: rN? 22:18:27 I meant for monsters 22:18:51 elliptic: you forgot "vulnerable" 22:18:59 the difference between something like rF+ and rF++ for monsters is something I basically never notice 22:19:04 so I guess elliptic++ 22:20:03 kilobyte: well, I said "other than fire/cold" so I guess you just mean rPois-? I guess that is okay, yeah 22:20:14 what about this: no monster has _base_ resists other than -1, 0, +1 and 4; items work as for players 22:20:49 elliptic: there's holy? 22:20:56 or is that not handled as a resist in the code despite chei claiming it to be one 22:20:57 holy isn't really a resist IMO 22:21:12 <|amethyst> rotting and elec are three-level 22:21:28 rotting? I don't even know what that means 22:22:00 <|amethyst> rRot protects against miasma, rRot+++ makes you immune to Zin sloughing your flesh off (because you have no flesh) 22:22:18 Serpent of Hell (05D) | Spd: 14 | HD: 20 | HP: 102-141 | AC/EV: 12/9 | Dam: 35, 15, 1507(trample) | 05demonic, 10doors, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(346), 05hellfire, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 10834 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), fire breath (3d40) | Sz: Huge | Int: high. 22:22:18 <|amethyst> %??serpent of hell 22:22:22 iron golem (108) | Spd: 7 | HD: 15 | HP: 117-152 | AC/EV: 15/3 | Dam: 35 | 11non-living, 10doors | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 918 | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 22:22:22 <|amethyst> %??iron golem 22:23:13 so we have a resist that is only used for a single god ability that nobody uses? 22:23:38 Recite? it kicks ass at high invo 22:23:49 <|amethyst> there might be a few other minor cases, but yeah 22:23:56 we're talking about 50% chance to one-shot anything demonic or undead 22:24:21 kilobyte: but that requires someone playing a zin character long enough to raise invo high :P 22:24:25 -!- GuraKKa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:35 <|amethyst> you'd have to turn it into a monster flag or at least a method with a big switch if you don't have three-level, if only for correctness of messaging 22:25:04 elliptic: or convert later 22:25:33 -!- ZenArcade has joined ##crawl-dev 22:25:33 I tried him a couple of times, and was amazed how far he trivializes hells even without using any abilities 22:26:04 [hrm, typing problems, kitteh] 22:26:19 <|amethyst> oh, right 22:27:06 |amethyst: anyway isn't the rotting thing handled by the 0/resist/immune or 0/+1/+4 thing anyway? 22:27:14 <|amethyst> elliptic: yeah, it would be 22:27:25 <|amethyst> elliptic: my suggestion was to make *everything* like that 22:27:28 |amethyst: scales has balance implications, though 22:27:36 <|amethyst> (with ++ also for fire and cold at least) 22:28:31 doesn't seem to make flavour sense for lorcs to get scales really 22:28:37 since they are kind of all about their super magic skin? 22:28:49 monster rF++ is the same as player rF+++ currently btw 22:28:54 <|amethyst> Eronarn: It doesn't have to be scales, then, but it sounds unintuitive to allow this instance of hard skin to stack with scales but not other instances 22:28:55 elliott: this was discussing whether to implement lorc stoneskin as a new 'scales' mutation 22:29:14 so they sort of have -1/0/+1/+3/+4 as options 22:29:29 |amethyst: right, i wouldn't want to introduce a special case... but then again, it is a bit weird that thick skin/fur/etc. are incompatible with scales in the first place 22:29:37 (i get why they are, but it contrasts with stoneskin as a spell) 22:29:57 Eronarn: right, I mean the balance issue is that it blocks off other scales, right? 22:30:08 elliott: right 22:30:09 <|amethyst> Eronarn: stoneskin doesn't turn your skin to stone 22:30:14 <|amethyst> Eronarn: it magically hardens it 22:30:24 Eronarn: just seems like that's good or at least neutral flavour anyway and also good mutations are kind of rare, so... 22:30:28 so I wouldn't personally worry about it 22:31:11 <|amethyst> Eronarn: as long as it's "relatively normal flesh" or statue form 22:31:15 |amethyst: i think that's pretty iffy given that thick skin is a type of 'scale'... 22:31:54 -!- caleb_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:32:23 <|amethyst> I guess it would be reasonable for shaggy fur/tough skin to be suppressed by scales rather than preventing them 22:32:41 then again, flavorwise they have rocks and stuff growing on their body. so it wouldn't be awful to just make a 'covered in rough stone' mutation 22:32:58 make it give more AC than current lorc stoneskin, but not scaling with XL 22:34:10 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 22:35:30 |amethyst: what about making tough skin and gelatinous body opposed muts, add a tradeoff element to both, and stacking with scales? 22:36:04 fur at least it makes sense to block scales coverage 22:36:16 not so much with jelly body or tough skin 22:38:50 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 22:40:49 (oops, i was supposed to be in bed - then i saw that netflix had s4 of being human...) 22:42:00 |amethyst: someone on the tavern suggested an electric form. I'll see what I can whip up 22:42:08 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:42:56 bh: you may want to do so atop the bad_forms branch, because of conflicts 22:43:06 ??electric golem 22:43:07 electric golem[1/2]: Nasty golem that can shoot bolts of lightning. They can normally be found in Zot. They are resistant to fire, ice, draining, electricity and magic. They are as fast as killer bees, and they blink all the time. Feature {af_elec} melee damage. 22:43:36 kilobyte: good point. It should be easy to rebase. 22:43:44 |amethyst: you wanted 0.11.2 -- do you have a Windows VM and some time? 22:44:12 <|amethyst> kilobyte: sadly no :( 22:44:14 |amethyst: I did every single release for a couple of years, I 22:44:20 <|amethyst> kilobyte: classes start Thursday 22:44:28 'd want to reduce the bus factor here 22:44:33 <|amethyst> kilobyte: Maybe in a week or two 22:45:03 it's just: what to do (most is documented), what to test, how to upload to SF 22:45:14 kilobyte: we'll just take out key man insurance on you ;) 22:46:06 greensnark or doy can be hard to hunt down, and don't know the current SF interface 22:46:16 <|amethyst> kilobyte: Grunt's been around recently, and he was involved in the 0.12 branch 22:46:22 <|amethyst> I would like to learn, though 22:46:42 <|amethyst> (or I thought he was, maybe I'm misremembering) 22:47:26 <|amethyst> s/the 0.12/the creation of &/ 22:47:42 speaking of testing, it looks like current trunk fails to work on Windows with levels of optimization higher than -O2 22:47:46 <|amethyst> err, of the 0.11 branch I guess I mean, and the 0.12 tag 22:48:00 Mm? 22:48:07 kilobyte has done that a lot more than I have <_< 22:48:18 <|amethyst> yeah, but he's right about bus factor 22:48:20 there's no rocket surgery, just a list of things to do that's underdocumented 22:49:35 mostly: run on old Windows, run on new Windows, both installed and zipped, both tiles and console, and a mandatory test is: start a game, kill a monster, save, load, die 22:50:36 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:51:46 -!- SurpriseTRex_ has quit [Quit: SurpriseTRex_] 22:53:23 note to self: sneak bugs into my patches that only appear when you kill the *second* monster on windows 22:53:48 <|amethyst> elliott: on a moderately old version of windows 22:53:54 <|amethyst> Vista or something 22:54:04 electric golem (118) | Spd: 16 | HD: 15 | HP: 117-152 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1511(elec:15-21), 1511(elec:15-21), 15, 15 | 11non-living, 10doors, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(160), 05fire, 02cold, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 5415 | Sp: b.lightning (3d20), blink | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 22:54:04 %??electric golem 22:54:11 bat (15b) | Spd: 30 | HD: 1 | HP: 2-5 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Dam: 1 | sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 22:54:11 %??bat 22:54:31 <|amethyst> elliott: and only when using the webtiles binary from the Windows console 22:54:45 |amethyst: my sabotage will destroy Crawl forever!!!! 22:55:25 |amethyst: I'm pretty sure that just flat out doesn't work, no? :P 22:55:26 |amethyst: webtiles don't work on non-Linux :p 22:55:48 <|amethyst> oh, well, then no one will discover the bug :) 22:56:00 The perfect kind of bug! 22:56:09 <|amethyst> until one day, when everyone has forgotten this conversation 22:56:12 "Vista" being an old version of windows? We officially support win2k, and the biggest diff is between XP and Vista. 22:56:12 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: exactly! 22:56:26 <|amethyst> kilobyte: no, Vista being a version that is neither new nor old 22:56:35 <|amethyst> kilobyte: hence not caught by your check 22:56:44 ah, right 22:56:58 kilobyte: can form attacks be branded? 22:57:13 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:57:15 bh: yes, see necromutation (draining brand) 22:57:39 Also ice form and spider form 22:57:51 what should show up as "weapon" for jellies and wisps? 22:58:10 <|amethyst> kilobyte: what is the wisp attack? 22:58:27 damned if I know 22:58:27 <|amethyst> kilobyte: "pseudopod" for jelly 22:58:33 @??insubstantial wisp 22:58:34 insubstantial wisp (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 6-18 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1206(blink self) | 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 80 | Sp: blink | Sz: tiny | Int: plant. 22:58:44 <|amethyst> "hit" 22:58:47 <|amethyst> blah 22:58:49 |amethyst: that's amoeba, they have at least _some_ form 22:59:25 <|amethyst> kilobyte: "(ooze)" 22:59:33 <|amethyst> or "(slam)" 22:59:55 (slimify) 23:00:03 <|amethyst> bad elliott 23:00:14 what about just (jelly) or (wisp) 23:00:38 |amethyst: excuse me!!!! it would be fantastic 23:00:42 I'm not sure it makes much sense to put a verb on that line 23:00:43 <|amethyst> that's not unreasonable 23:00:53 one day my genius will be recognised 23:00:55 <|amethyst> elliott: the name of the branch is *bad*_forms :P 23:01:10 |amethyst: I think you'll agree that a form in which you could slimify for free would be bad 23:01:22 <|amethyst> elliptic: "slam" can be a noun too 23:01:36 also just do it like the slimy lichmummy and give it the disadvantage of you drop all your items and then eat them the turn you enter that form 23:01:40 Yes, but in that sense it is also not something you hit people with 23:01:53 In the sense of a 'weapon' 23:02:13 <|amethyst> true... it would be a different case in many languages, for example 23:02:24 |amethyst: well, the act of attacking is also not the same thing as a weapon or body part to attack with 23:02:35 acid (acid) 23:02:53 vapour (blink) 23:03:48 "Ice fists (freeze)" 23:04:12 <|amethyst> Body (acid) 23:04:53 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1616-ge3ef79a: Update release docs a bit. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 5-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e3ef79a55b3f 23:05:22 maybe "Jelly (acid)" or "Wisp (blink self)" I guess 23:06:43 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:13:22 <|amethyst> Anyway, I should be going, need to finish up the syllabus etc... I'll probably be mostly out of touch for a couple of weeks. If anything comes up, edlothiol and Napkin have access to CSZO, or email me if it's urgent. 23:17:58 -!- mcevers has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:22:45 <|amethyst> kilobyte: When I'm back, I have April Fools' related stuff I wanted to talk to you about, particularly with regards to save compatibility and adding things that would then have to be removed 23:23:06 -!- eb has quit [] 23:24:57 <|amethyst> kilobyte: (In private, that is, since I don't want to spoil anything :) ontoclasm and HangedMan know some of the details 23:25:01 -!- Bef has quit [] 23:25:14 it involves soviet agents 23:27:13 <|amethyst> You see here: Jozef, wielding a +5/+7 spycam. 23:34:25 they told you jozef was unfeatured 23:34:46 really it was the kgb's wpp 23:36:42 at least we didn't have reindeers for christmas 23:37:09 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: being stupid, sunstruck, and Dead, flew into the rocketing FIN.] 23:45:54 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 23:46:52 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:48:27 Where does the EV bonus for spider form get granted? 23:49:34 bh: there isn't an EV bonus, just a dex bonus and a small size 23:50:09 giving an EV bonus directly would be weird IMO 23:56:55 -!- maahes has quit [Quit: Leaving]