00:00:08 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:00:49 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1536-g9c79506 (34) 00:00:51 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1447-gab12c06 (34) 00:00:51 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 00:02:46 <|amethyst> phyphor: armour always identifies on wear 00:02:53 <|amethyst> in part for simplicity, I guess 00:07:54 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1447-gab12c06 00:13:12 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:21:05 -!- test357 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:24:02 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:25:31 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 00:25:52 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:31:22 -!- Sombrero_Mott has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:19 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:35:43 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:52:35 -!- Htlier has quit [Client Quit] 01:34:31 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:44:09 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:04 -!- geekosaur has quit [Excess Flood] 01:55:14 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1537-ge25d5eb: Fix spacing 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e25d5eb52be1 01:55:14 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1538-g6f18384: Don't make spatial maelstroms worship Lugonu 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6f183847be63 02:10:24 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1539-ge2ba925: Indentation fixes. 10(5 minutes ago, 3 files, 12+ 12-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e2ba925e33bb 02:16:51 -!- ponies has quit [Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com] 02:24:03 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:26:49 -!- bza has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:30:56 -!- Beneather has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:33 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: blat] 02:46:08 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:52:43 -!- klz has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:53:50 -!- hurdos has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:54:56 -!- GuraKKa1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:57:17 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:58:35 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:03:18 -!- Misder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:07:33 -!- Harms_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:09:08 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10:27 -!- Misder has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:03 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:21:56 mbj (L25 DgWz) ERROR: range check error (-1 / 70) (D:26) 03:28:59 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 03:29:10 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 03:33:40 <|amethyst> !lm mbj crash -log 03:33:40 1. mbj, XL25 DgWz, T:170079 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/mbj/crash-mbj-20121231-092155.txt 03:34:36 <|amethyst> "Targetting interrupted by HUP signal. Are you sure you want to cancel this blink?" 03:35:07 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:56 <|amethyst> hah, tried to duplicate and "Another game is already in progress using this save!" 03:39:51 <|amethyst> oh, nice 03:40:15 <|amethyst> spinning with 100% CPU on the "Are you sure you want to cancel this blink?" message 03:40:44 -!- Fungus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:41:00 <|amethyst> doesn't explain the range check error on mbj's crash, though 03:46:56 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 03:51:25 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1540-g9da1972: Avoid an infinite loop when HUPping at the scblink prompt. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9da19725963e 03:52:21 -!- Misder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:55:09 -!- swarmer has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:56:30 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:01:34 -!- Ganrao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:52 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:03:20 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:10:48 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 04:11:53 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:12:09 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: It is three in the AM.] 04:17:09 -!- stubblyhead has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:31:20 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:35:21 -!- Dixbert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:41:07 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Client Quit] 04:41:52 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 04:48:03 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:51:05 feimerdre (L1 MfAK) ASSERT(feat > DNGN_UNSEEN) in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 571 failed. (Abyss:1) 05:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1540-g9da1972 05:00:39 <|amethyst> !lm feimerdre crash -log 05:00:40 1. feimerdre, XL1 MfAK, T:0 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/feimerdre/crash-feimerdre-20121231-105104.txt 05:00:45 <|amethyst> !lm feimerdre crash 1 -log 05:00:45 1. feimerdre, XL1 MfAK, T:0 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/feimerdre/crash-feimerdre-20121231-105104.txt 05:01:04 <|amethyst> !tell bh first inception crash, !lm feimerdre crash 1 -log 05:01:04 |amethyst: OK, I'll let bh know. 05:14:59 -!- _D_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:21:37 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 05:24:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27:48 -!- klz has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:39:12 |amethyst: there's again three 100% cpu crawl-inception processes on cszo 05:41:36 <|amethyst> segfault in the crash dump handler 05:42:16 aren't there normally precautions against that causing an infinite loop? 05:42:24 <|amethyst> that's what I thought 05:43:07 <|amethyst> killed 05:43:36 |amethyst: segfault where in the handler? 05:44:09 <|amethyst> _dump_player -> raw_feature_description 05:44:46 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 05:48:38 that's after alarm(5) 05:56:51 -!- psychoDad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:57:18 <|amethyst> edlothiol: what do I need to do to display a message? anything other than msg:layer, msg:show_dialog, then read? 05:58:42 |amethyst: that should be all 05:58:59 |amethyst: also, msg hide_dialog to close it 06:00:00 <|amethyst> hm... the message isn't actually displaying 06:00:24 <|amethyst> I get a blank screen, but pressing a key does go back to the menu as expected 06:02:43 <|amethyst> oh 06:02:50 <|amethyst> I had a newline in my message :) 06:03:01 <|amethyst> works now 06:03:05 ah 06:05:02 you can also add something like to add a clickable button 06:07:38 <|amethyst> edlothiol: great, thanks 06:10:01 wooo, abyss 06:10:05 thats a lot of commits 06:12:51 MarvinPA: nothing wrong with having spatial maelstroms be lugonu - see jiyva & jellies or yred & zombies 06:13:34 lava orc rename: i will literally fork crawl if this happens 06:13:48 <|amethyst> Eronarn: the difference being that jellies and zombies are at least animate 06:14:24 |amethyst: setting a monster's religion means as much 'is a possession of this god' as 'worships this god' 06:15:00 <|amethyst> true 06:15:32 setting random monsters to a god is wrong, as it messes with tension calculations for no reason 06:15:44 it should be ever set for actual priests and god gifts 06:16:34 instead of setting, say, Ignacio to Makhleb, because his description mentions that god 06:16:38 -!- Danei has quit [] 06:17:12 <|amethyst> huh? does it affect tension calculation if it's not a gift? 06:19:34 doesn't do anything good, I mean 06:22:44 wrt the lava orc rebase stuff... I am around until this evening; I don't mind doing the rebase myself but I figured it might be easier to do code review pre-rebase and then just confirm that the diffs end up the same minus any desired changes from the original 06:27:57 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:06 back to alarm() -- looks like SIGALARM and sleep() are not related on Linux 06:33:30 not sure what might be causing it to fail to kill the process 06:37:27 using setitimer() to request a SIGPROF could possibly help, but only in cases that waste 100% CPU, rather than locking up 06:38:17 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1541-gcd80a3a: Don't lose mana+time on HUP-aborted cancellable semi-controlled blink. 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cd80a3a79866 06:42:37 -!- anidude has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:51:50 -!- Wehk__ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:57 -!- Wehk_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:41 -!- maahes has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:09:45 -!- Ragnor has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:15:10 -!- Duke- has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:21:38 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:27:59 -!- Villadelfia has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:28:54 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:31:13 -!- Villadelfia has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:25 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 07:39:17 -!- flyingpants has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:39:31 -!- klz has quit [Changing host] 07:41:12 bah, git.develz.org isn't updating anymore again 07:48:23 -!- Harms_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:09:48 -!- jiero has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:15:51 -!- Rjs has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:31:03 -!- ajikeshi has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:28 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:50:18 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:44 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:03:16 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:01 -!- jiero has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:11:24 does it make sense that you can't place a cloud on a spot where there's an ood-trail 09:11:29 -!- Froggeryz has quit [] 09:12:45 magical condensation used used as a cloud in a few places 09:13:21 does it actually do anything? 09:23:05 <|amethyst> other than blocking other clouds, no 09:23:51 <|amethyst> which is more of a technical limitation than a deliberate design decision 09:24:41 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:27:24 -!- Findor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:08 |amethyst: there's already a function to define clouds as inferior, so... 09:40:48 -!- wheals has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47:17 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:22 !messages 09:47:22 (1/1) |amethyst said (4h 46m 18s ago): first inception crash, !lm feimerdre crash 1 -log 09:47:32 !lm feimerdre crash 1 -log 09:47:33 1. feimerdre, XL1 MfAK, T:0 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/feimerdre/crash-feimerdre-20121231-105104.txt 09:49:54 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:56:19 |amethyst: nice of them to give us a line number 09:59:44 !lg * place=~abyss:* s=ckiller 09:59:45 20 games for * (place=~abyss:* s=ckiller): 3x a smoke demon, 3x a starcursed mass, 3x a large abomination, 2x an ufetubus, 2x quitting, a sun demon, a blizzard demon, a small abomination, an ancient zyme, a wretched star, an efreet, an Executioner 10:00:02 unknown monster: "thrashing horror" 10:00:02 %??thrashing horror 10:01:05 -!- Findor has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:01:54 ??thrashing horror 10:01:54 I don't have a page labeled thrashing_horror in my learndb. 10:03:08 <|amethyst> let me rebuild monster 10:08:17 <3 10:08:31 I suspect that the thrashing horror will kill many more HD of monsters than players. 10:08:39 <|amethyst> bh: btw, that stack trace looks kind of like a vault was being placed at the player's position 10:09:06 oh right that still keeps happening with my abyss vaults and I keep forgetting to mantis it 10:09:08 |amethyst: ah. I see it further up. 10:09:11 <|amethyst> bh: dungeon_terrain_changed -> (_dgn_check_terrain_player) -> you_teleport_now 10:09:22 except with deaths instead of crashes 10:09:29 vault_placement::apply_grid() 10:09:34 <|amethyst> yeah 10:09:53 I *believe* this is a pre-newabyss bug 10:10:10 abyss vault placement hasn't been touched in years 10:10:55 <|amethyst> !lm feimerdre crash 1 -log x=noun 10:10:55 1. feimerdre, XL1 MfAK, T:0 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/feimerdre/crash-feimerdre-20121231-105104.txt 10:11:02 <|amethyst> !lm feimerdre crash 1 x=noun 10:11:02 1. [2012-12-31 10:51:04] [noun=ASSERT(feat > DNGN UNSEEN) in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 571 failed.] feimerdre the Skirmisher (L1 MfAK) ASSERT(feat > DNGN UNSEEN) in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 571 failed on turn 0. (Abyss:1) 10:11:33 that'll certainly break if feat == DNGN_UNSEEN 10:11:34 <|amethyst> !lm * crash=~"feat > DNGN UNSEEN" place=~abyss 10:11:54 No milestones for * (crash=~"feat > DNGN UNSEEN" place=~abyss). 10:11:56 <|amethyst> yeah, and since the vault didn't finish placing 10:12:18 <|amethyst> !lm * crash=~"DNGN UNSEEN" place=~abyss 10:12:18 No milestones for * (crash=~"DNGN UNSEEN" place=~abyss). 10:12:21 <|amethyst> !lm * crash=~"DNGN_UNSEEN" place=~abyss 10:12:21 No milestones for * (crash=~"DNGN_UNSEEN" place=~abyss). 10:12:35 <|amethyst> hm, what am I doing wrong 10:13:20 <|amethyst> !lm * crash=~DNGN\ UNSEEN 10:13:21 1. [2012-12-31 10:51:04] feimerdre the Skirmisher (L1 MfAK) ASSERT(feat > DNGN UNSEEN) in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 571 failed on turn 0. (Abyss:1) 10:13:31 <|amethyst> looks like the first crash there 10:13:58 <|amethyst> it may be that the vault placement problem already existed, but somehow didn't trigger a crash before 10:14:32 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1447-gab12c06 10:14:33 sufficiently rare bug? Let's leave it broken ;) 10:14:37 thrashing horror (08X) | Spd: 25 | HD: 9 | HP: 33-64 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 1707(trample), 907(trample) | 10doors, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(60), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison | XP: 1001 | Sp: frenzy | Sz: Big | Int: animal. 10:14:37 %??thrashing horror 10:14:46 <|amethyst> wow 10:15:04 <|amethyst> I guess kilobyte triggered the CDO monster rebuild at the same time I did 10:15:21 <|amethyst> but it's old because git.develz hasn't been updating 10:15:41 <|amethyst> s/I did/I triggered the s-z.org one/ 10:16:53 <|amethyst> the teleport wasn't a new abyss area, btw 10:17:07 ah. It was a melty transition? 10:17:13 <|amethyst> since _dgn_check_terrain_player passes false for that parameter 10:17:22 <|amethyst> should have been a plain teleport 10:17:45 <|amethyst> but that may involve a shift (not the "new area" shift, but the recentering shift) 10:19:21 <|amethyst> kilobyte: hm... do emergency teleports still work with stasis/-TELE? it looks like they wouldn't 10:19:55 <|amethyst> (not that that is related to the present bug, but it could be one in its own right) 10:20:20 In that case: _abyss_teleport_within_level should be there to move you away from monsters, then the abyss gets recentered, the state gets randomized and all the terrain gets nuked 10:20:32 hrmph 10:20:40 should even emergency teleports still happen? 10:22:13 <|amethyst> bh: I think the unlabelled frame between abyss_teleport and check_map_validity there is abyss_area_shift() 10:22:33 <|amethyst> bh: so after _abyss_teleport_within_level 10:23:27 |amethyst: shameful confession: I was until this moment unfamiliar with 'retry' in C++ 10:23:51 <|amethyst> huh? 10:24:10 abyss.cc:1397 10:24:25 <|amethyst> that's just a label for the goto several lines below 10:25:04 that's evil. 10:25:10 <|amethyst> kilobyte: hm... for players they could maybe be turned into assertions, but there are non-buggy situations where monsters might need an emergency teleport 10:26:29 <|amethyst> bh: given that the goto is buried two ifs deep, and there's an else on one of those, it's probably more readable this way than rewriting it as a do-while loop 10:27:02 could be better to push the monster to a nearest space instead 10:28:22 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:50 <|amethyst> kilobyte: true... that might be through a wall, but teleport is also through a wall so... 10:31:01 * kilobyte wishes for a decent flood-fill iterator. 10:31:34 kilobyte: we could ask Mr. Disjkstra to write us one. He could remove our GOTOs while he's in there. 10:31:34 one that assigns a big but not infinite weight to impassable terrain, preferably 10:32:00 *Dijkstra 10:32:23 like the simplification (and my rant) in 80408f72 10:33:04 elliott: disjunction + dijkstra ;) 10:33:35 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:57 <|amethyst> FR: tloc/tmut spell, "Disjunctive Normal Form" 10:34:14 <3 10:34:32 |amethyst: we could also have Chomsky Normal and Backus-Naur 10:34:49 CNF is clearly more powerful than BNF. 10:36:54 you mean, less powerful spells shouldn't heed the player's current context 10:39:01 <|amethyst> speaking of normal form, I do think TRAN_HUMAN would be interesting... but I guess adding extra slots is problematic 10:39:31 <|amethyst> could meld them when you untransform I guess 10:40:06 humans being normal? That's racist! 10:40:27 <|amethyst> spriggans go home 10:43:26 orcs need not apply :( 10:44:10 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:45:27 kilobyte, re SIGALRM, could it be that crawl is inheriting a mask or ignore for SIGALRM? 10:45:30 just found a bug: in tree form, you're SIZE_HUGE, and thus can wield two-handed weapons with a shield. How should that be handled? 10:46:09 the current message in similar cases, "you would need three branches to do that" would be especially wrong 10:46:45 jilles: I doubt that, but since no signal handler is set for SIGALRM at all, worth checking 10:46:56 kilobyte: perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question. Unwield the shield on un-transform? 10:46:56 I like how webtiles it's Fly Hungry but in console it's Hungry Fly 10:47:03 and by like I mean what's with this 10:47:12 HangedMan: Fly Hungry. Fly Smash! 10:47:17 <|amethyst> bh: what if the shield and the weapon are both cursed? 10:47:47 |amethyst: hrmph. Keep holding both but apply vicious penalties? 10:48:59 could invent some silly reason, like that you're not comfortable using such a big thing, etc 10:49:01 <|amethyst> for that matter, even if that is banned, what if a spriggan in tree form wields a GSC of distortion? 10:49:12 <|amethyst> I guess that would work 10:49:46 <|amethyst> or don't let trees wield weapons 10:49:53 or spriggans could turn into sapling form :p 10:49:57 "your leaves get in the way" 10:50:21 <|amethyst> kilobyte: yeah, I think it's reasonable to keep the player's size in tree form 10:50:41 <|amethyst> none of the existing fixed-size forms allow weapons 10:50:57 |amethyst: my point is, most bad forms force running away unless you happen to be an UC+EV char; I want tree to give you a fighting chance while taking away the ability to retreat 10:51:44 <|amethyst> kilobyte: and I guess giving them strong unarmed is unfair in favour of players who have trained unarmed 10:51:47 kilobyte: you could meld the currently wielded equipment into 'tree kit' 10:52:18 <|amethyst> kilobyte: so keep the size and allow weapons/shield 10:52:35 <|amethyst> the player's size, that is 10:53:21 using XL instead of UC for forms is one option 10:53:40 bh: you mean, make them functional but unwieldable? 10:53:54 bh: like RL trees tend to do with foreign objects 10:53:54 kilobyte: un-unwieldable 10:54:02 yeah 10:54:36 http://www.thiel-a-vision.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/no14.jpg 10:55:13 or even cooler: http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/201109/images/LW_01.jpg 10:55:21 <|amethyst> bh: there's a tree not far from my house that has a "no parking" sign embedded within it 10:55:23 kilobyte: only for bad forms, I hope? 10:55:30 otherwise that messes with Tm a lot 10:55:37 bh: <3 10:55:38 * elliott thinks just keeping size in tree form is the best option 10:56:52 elliott: or perhaps even only for ones that don't fight in the regular way of fast dodges and blows 10:57:11 like, jelly if it makes it (which I seriously doubt) 10:58:05 ??bad forms 10:58:05 I don't have a page labeled bad_forms in my learndb. 10:58:41 small size would mess with fancy interactions with water I've already coded 10:58:53 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:59:49 pushed my current tree 11:00:31 !lg * place=~abyss:* s=ckiller 11:00:31 20 games for * (place=~abyss:* s=ckiller): 3x a smoke demon, 3x a starcursed mass, 3x a large abomination, 2x an ufetubus, 2x quitting, a sun demon, a blizzard demon, a small abomination, an ancient zyme, a wretched star, an efreet, an Executioner 11:00:39 le sigh. The abyss isn't killing fast enough 11:00:51 New branch created: bad_forms (6 commits) 11:00:51 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1542-gd2c2aaa: Bad transformations: enums, messages, gear restrictions. 10(11 months ago, 10 files, 214+ 13-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d2c2aaaba38c 11:00:51 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1543-g2389355: Give tree form -MOVE, -TELE and -Fly. 10(6 days ago, 9 files, 61+ 11-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2389355033f7 11:00:51 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1544-g297fa46: Give porcupine form spines. 10(3 days ago, 2 files, 4+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=297fa464719e 11:00:51 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1545-gab6e61d: Casting restrictions for jelly and porcupine. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ab6e61d739e8 11:00:51 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1546-gb359d65: Typo fix. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b359d658a713 11:00:51 03kilobyte 07[bad_forms] * 0.12-a0-1547-g32300fe: Fix rF not granting rSteam while suppressed. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=32300fe2765f 11:00:53 !lg * place=~abyss:* killer=wretched star 11:00:53 1. neil the Sneak (L4 SpAK), worshipper of Lugonu, blasted by a wretched star (orb of energy) on Abyss:2 on 2012-12-31 04:06:25, with 118 points after 592 turns and 0:02:42. 11:01:01 !lg * place=~abyss:* killer=ancient zyme 11:01:01 1. neil the Ducker (L1 SpAK), worshipper of Lugonu, slain by an ancient zyme on Abyss:2 on 2012-12-31 04:02:06, with 20 points after 63 turns and 0:00:31. 11:01:19 <|amethyst> !lg * place=~abyss: s=name 11:01:20 20 games for * (place=~abyss: s=name): 13x neil, 3x Ayutzia, 2x djanatyn, Vralanea, robotron1971 11:01:21 kilobyte: -MOVE? HA 11:01:58 <|amethyst> kilobyte: now that we have -MOVE, can we get a statue race? 11:02:06 bh: roots make moving a bit hard 11:02:41 <|amethyst> what was the suggestion... allow Warper only and start with enough monsters in LOS to get to level 2 11:04:26 just swap the level of apportation and blink 11:04:34 the former is better anyway 11:05:22 less silly for wr to start with blink castable than apportation anyway, since the latter is more "utility" and there aren't any rules to steal on D:1 11:05:55 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1542-g4c49560: Typo fix. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4c495600340d 11:05:55 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1543-gb370d7f: Fix rF not granting rSteam while suppressed. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b370d7fcd3db 11:06:14 rules to steal 11:06:25 *runes 11:07:49 better to keep apportation as a level 1 spell 11:08:01 because? 11:08:16 there's nothing that can stop us from having an XL 1 char with a level 2 spell memorized, though 11:08:41 I think apportation is a little op at level 1 anyway personally 11:08:44 phyphor: typical uses of apportation involve tens of cast in a row 11:08:46 or having statues count as "special" when it comes to elarning spells 11:09:06 typical uses of apportation involve only a few casts -- e.g. to get a rune 11:09:07 kilobyte: true, but perhaps we should have a "greater" apport that works on an area or somehting 11:09:10 it would nerf orb-apportation too 11:09:32 (it is also useful in zigs and stuff to make sorting through loot a bit quicker but that's really marginal IMO and not something really relevant to balance especially as you can just CBOE there) 11:09:48 -!- jiero has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:10:05 orb-apportation has already been nerfed heavily 11:10:42 sure but it is still pretty powerful 11:10:49 Zig characters tend to value every spell slot dearly 11:10:51 not that it'd do all that much to nerf it since it doesn't exactly take 50 MP to get the orb 11:11:18 why are there balance concerns about zigs 11:14:38 or to rephrase why are there concerns about zig balance clouding bits of the entire rest of the game 11:15:55 <|amethyst> I thought typical uses of apportation were supposed to include fetching the ammo you just fired 11:16:15 so an AoE apport would be better, right? 11:16:19 wands/potions before monster pick them up 11:16:20 because arrows go all over the place 11:16:32 saving on turns in general 11:16:36 phyphor: Disjunction backward! 11:16:40 apportation is good in the abyss too 11:16:45 juncdistion! 11:16:53 junk distortion? 11:16:53 local global 11:16:58 Conjunction 11:17:05 what's your function? 11:17:13 hooking up words, phrases and clauses? 11:17:20 :) 11:17:34 picking up wands, potions and ... 11:17:35 meh 11:17:40 I am usually better at filking 11:18:05 bh: random thought 1: summon thrashing horror could be a pretty good midlevel summ spell. random thought 2: give it a thrash metal lyric as its quote :) 11:18:28 Eronarn: I'll leave implementing both of those to you. 11:20:44 kilobyte: wrt tree form: compelling argument to make it change your size is messaging. e.g., halflings can be 'saplings' and spriggans can be 'bonsai trees' 11:21:14 Eronarn: more like banzai trees! 11:21:44 |amethyst: wrt normal form: making it meld stuff you equipped in normal form seems interesting but OP... one turn swap of your inventory. also there's the case of e.g. races that can't wear helmets can wear caps... 11:21:47 Eronarn: but mighty oaks from little acorns grow 11:21:51 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:22:05 -!- wheals has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:23:00 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:24:14 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:15 wrt forms using XL instead of UC... i think that's something we should seriously consider now that this is how auxes work, because it is inconsistent that a bite is UC unless it's an aux bite. but, it is a pretty huge balance change so it may be better to tackle it one form at a time 11:24:35 -!- Siskiyou has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:40 WHy are aux bites not UC? 11:25:44 (and aux headbutts) 11:26:18 ??flayed ghost 11:26:19 flayed ghost[1/1]: The most dangerous non-pghost "p", but by the time you meet it not much of a threat. A staple of Gehenna. 11:26:28 Why don't flayed ghosts resist cold? 11:26:31 flayed ghost (05p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 42-78 | AC/EV: 0/14 | Dam: 30 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, lev | Res: 06magic(58), 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 721 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 11:26:31 %??flayed ghost 11:27:17 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:53 wrt a -MOVE race... i've thought occasionally that it could be cool to have a race that propagates via runners. thing is, it would be hard to explain using items at all and we already have too many item-restricted races... it might make a better form. 11:28:02 <|amethyst> phyphor: it was decided in 0.10 development that UC skill should be used for unarmed combat only 11:28:18 Eronarn: I still want a multi-tile species. See bad_ideas ;) 11:28:49 though a race that cannot move if it is being observed would be kind of cool, maybe? there are a few ways to go with that: only things that can see it; only things that aren't mindless; everything causes Fear for that race (so they can move but only away) 11:28:50 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:56 wrt AOE apport: yes please! that sounds fun, and we need more spells in crawl 11:30:17 more spells sounds like it isn't changing bad current spells 11:30:19 -- okay, caught up 11:30:27 more x sounds like it isn't changing bad current x 11:30:32 -!- LikotUdendeb has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:14 braverobin species 11:31:26 phyphor: auxes got changed to be XL around the time of the mino retaliation thing. it was rather silly that you wanted to train UC just to be good at your race's natural gifts 11:31:57 <|amethyst> err, do they use XL? 11:32:03 <|amethyst> I thought it was str and dex 11:32:06 oh, oops 11:32:17 <|amethyst> maybe it makes sense to use XL 11:32:24 <|amethyst> (in addition to str and dex) 11:32:30 <|amethyst> so that there's a sense of progression 11:32:53 Eronarn: a troll's natural gifts are its claws so ... 11:32:54 :) 11:32:59 |amethyst: personally i'd do something like XL affects damage, dex affects chance, str multiplies 11:33:10 <|amethyst> str multiplies? 11:33:22 |amethyst: not XL * STR :) 11:33:28 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:33:46 but, say, XL * (STR/10) 11:34:33 <|amethyst> I hope you mean (XL * STR)/10 11:34:41 <|amethyst> otherwise that's a massive nerf to felids 11:34:52 <|amethyst> doing zero damage and all 11:35:46 |amethyst: i was just giving a general form of what i'd want to see the formula as - XL being a higher contributor than STR is actually good for felids 11:36:03 it's not a higher contributor if you decrease it by multiplying it... 11:36:20 <|amethyst> Eronarn: other than rounding, it's exactly the same contribution from both 11:36:37 <|amethyst> Eronarn: and with rounding, a felid spellcaster wouldn't be able to do damage 11:37:25 <|amethyst> in floats, (XL/10) * STR ~= XL * (STR/10) 11:37:38 oh, haha, i should really not skip breakfast and then try to do math 11:38:45 <|amethyst> I was thinking as it currently is (dex helps accuracy a lot and damage a little; vice versa for str), with an additive effect from XL 11:39:02 HangedMan: changing bad spells is good and i am all for that but given that we have rand spellbooks, i see it as a good thing to add more spells even if we don't find a place for them in existing spellbooks 11:39:35 <|amethyst> currently a spell won't appear in randbooks unless it's in a fixed book 11:39:45 FR: Destroy a spellbook to cast a spell 11:40:07 |amethyst: book of nonexistence proofs 11:40:09 <|amethyst> that's why we don't have Hellfire Burst in randbooks 11:40:12 destroy necronomicon, cast necromut, learn extension, 11:40:38 fr book casting 11:40:53 <|amethyst> BlastHardcheese: you mean, "fix Tome of Destruction"? 11:40:58 maybe 11:41:02 so, breaking a wand to get one last charge out = bad, but breaking a book to get a cast out of it = good? 11:41:25 there is a slight difference amongst these 11:42:00 i'm okay with breaking wands, personally (as long as there's a warning prompt) 11:42:06 <|amethyst> I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being able to break a wand to get one last charge 11:42:12 HangedMan: yeah, nethack did one of them :) 11:42:12 <|amethyst> but not the way Nethack does it 11:42:20 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:47 <|amethyst> I don't think anyone is suggesting "try reading a book several dozen times to cast a spell from it once" 11:42:49 -!- shirish has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:50 we do not exactly have wands of acquirement either 11:43:08 fr: crawl 1.1 books where they change when you read them 11:43:16 oh, is it still the case that some things are specific to certain equipment? 11:43:18 ugh :( 11:43:26 is gourmand amulet only? 11:43:28 FR: imbue wands with negative energy for healballs 11:43:37 <|amethyst> phyphor: yes, most things are like that 11:43:40 bah 11:43:46 <|amethyst> you can't get a shield of freezing for example 11:43:46 and vampiric is weapon only 11:43:50 it adds decisions!! 11:44:11 I want a weapon of insatiable hunger that is vampiric, +hunger, rPois, gourmand, rMut ... 11:44:17 so you have to eat, but you can eat anything 11:44:20 phyphor: that can be unranded 11:44:34 reminded of shiren's melding system 11:44:36 Some kind of hefty Axe or somesuch 11:44:36 <|amethyst> an ARTP for gourmand could be added easily 11:44:37 but gourmand appearing randomly on weapons would be weird 11:44:42 true 11:44:56 mutatious chunks don't give nutrition 11:45:01 <|amethyst> and, yeah, a fixedart would also be easy 11:45:01 actually, cvan you eat mut chunks if you're rmut? do you get nutrition? I forget 11:45:05 phyphor: make it a blunt weapon 11:45:07 yes / no 11:45:13 elliott: why blunt? 11:45:14 it just prevents mut, so skip that one 11:45:18 so you can't butcher with it 11:45:24 bah 11:45:24 <|amethyst> btw, can anyone think of anything relevant "gourmand, "faith, etc might do for monsters? 11:45:42 |amethyst: give monsters food clocks, piety, 11:45:49 give monsters limited MP so rings of magical power do things 11:46:11 elliott: it'd be sucky if you couldn't butcher 11:46:40 But an unrand exe axe of insatiable hunger would be, to me anyway, interesting. I'd throw a +curse on there too 11:46:52 and something else tehmatic but un-good 11:47:27 oh, if rMut doesn't help you eat mut chunks that cna come off I guess 11:47:46 well a vampiric exec axe with +hunger would just be really good 11:47:52 you don't need gourmand on it to make it excellent 11:47:55 even hunger++ 11:48:09 elliott: actually, what i'd suggest is faking it, for both MP and piety... casting a spell adds to some counter, and they have something like 1+spell_level/counter_level of being able to cast a given spell 11:48:51 i think it'd be pretty boring if monsters had normal MP because they'd just always cast anyways 11:49:00 well monsters don't just always cast as it is 11:49:38 AF_CRUSH can only be used with AT_CONSTRICT, right? 11:49:44 elliott: what i mean is that you wouldn't see a monster acting differently at all until it suddenly stopped casting 11:50:33 well, it's possible that the AI would decide not to cast now because it'd run out of MP too quickly and instead wait, etc. 11:50:47 I think Angband folk have done some work on MP-aware AI 11:50:57 bh: by the way, if you didn't see earlier - i can help out with the lorc rebase for the next few hours at least; i had avoided rebasing because i wanted to have commit history preserved for people to do the review on 11:51:16 <|amethyst> elliott: I was thinking "MP could increase the chance of casting 11:51:26 <|amethyst> but that's bad for some monsters 11:51:28 Eronarn: ok. The blocker on my end is that I don't want to wade through a mountain of commits. 11:51:41 reviewing Tentacled Starspawn was hard enough and that was only ~60 commits 11:52:02 I think kilo is looking at orcs 11:52:03 elliott: that's true. it'd be neat to see monsters doing that... 11:52:32 I think it is probably better for monsters to not have MP though 11:52:33 i guess having a real MP value would also mean you could have monsters with different spell:MP ratios 11:52:39 elliott: +hunger makes vampiric better? 11:52:48 since this would probably just make them less dangerous 11:52:53 how would +hunger on a vamp axe be better than a vamp axe? 11:53:06 phyphor: no but a vampiric executioner's axe is incredibly good, and both executioner's axes and vampiric weapons are rare 11:53:12 truew 11:53:16 hunger+ isn't much of a disadvantage especially on such a good item 11:53:19 elliott: that just gives design room to make monsters more dangerous :) 11:53:22 hrm 11:53:34 Maybe I've been spoiled by trig 11:53:36 vampiric hunger is hunger on HP gain, not hunger on wield 11:53:38 err, trog 11:54:00 bh, I am talking about the hunger you get from rings of hunger as a downside to having an axe 11:54:17 maybe an unrand broadaxe? 11:54:21 phyphor: that's bad. 11:54:25 yes 11:54:42 it's insatiable hunger - you really, really want to eat stuff, but to make up for it you can eat anything you find 11:54:42 as in "this is undesirable because people will equipment swap" 11:54:52 hence +curse 11:55:03 bh: you can't really swap a vampiric axe that well 11:55:07 not for food-related reasons anyway! 11:55:12 and, also, you can't fill up on food to wield the vamp item because ... youv'e removed the item that helps you eat such 11:55:33 elliott: point. 11:55:48 I thought it thematically interesting, but if vamp + exe axe is "too good" then that's fair enough 11:55:56 well it's not that it's too good 11:56:00 I am sure I've had many of them, but I've played a lot of Troggites so ... 11:56:01 just that the disadvantage sounds more annoying than anything 11:57:24 <|amethyst> bh: It looks like AF_CRUSH without AT_CONSTRICT would constrict but ignore the constriction restrictions 11:57:47 |amethyst: le sigh. I want to use constriction mechanics without the flavor 11:58:07 <|amethyst> what would the flavour be? 11:58:23 -!- codile has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 11:58:45 uery HangedMan 11:58:47 ghosts grabbing you through the walls 11:58:49 oops :) 11:59:32 <|amethyst> also, I think those should be AF_CONSTRICT and AT_CRUSH instead, and the two places that check AT_CONSTRICT should check for the AF_ instead 11:59:47 bh: i actually wanted to make a player spell like that, but with zombie hands... it'd definitely be interesting 12:00:01 Eronarn: I just coded up a monster... 12:00:39 <|amethyst> bh: is "held" rather than "constricted" acceptible? 12:00:43 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:00:52 bh: there is the flavor problem of no ghosts currently passing through walls, btw 12:00:54 <|amethyst> bh: because for that all you have to do is make the attack have zero damage 12:01:01 -!- Vizer has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:31 Eronarn: I'm aiming to fix that. https://gist.github.com/4421643 12:01:42 <|amethyst> bh: (as inept/normal mimics currently work) 12:01:43 |amethyst: huh. The more you know 12:02:07 what happened to the flayed ghost entry in that patch 12:02:20 elliott: erm. fat fingers. 12:02:39 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:02:51 hehe 12:02:56 <|amethyst> freudian slip... you really meant to replace flayed ghosts altogether 12:03:00 -!- One-Eyed has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:03:56 the name is also totally wrong. Poltergeists open doors and generally gaslight people. 12:04:50 <|amethyst> bh: what's HT_INCORPOREAL? 12:04:51 -!- Staplefun has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:05:00 <|amethyst> oh, never mind, I see it 12:05:02 |amethyst: something I slipped in for spatial maelstroms :) 12:05:08 -!- Findor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:05:29 wall swimming - wall shielding 12:05:48 <|amethyst> forgot to re-run ctags after the inception merge :) 12:05:54 poultry-geists 12:06:08 <|amethyst> I should do that in a git hook 12:06:22 yes please and commit it. 12:09:42 <|amethyst> what should I hook? post-merge and post-checkout? 12:10:29 <|amethyst> and post-commit I guess 12:11:08 <|amethyst> and maybe post-rewrite 12:11:41 bh: monsters that can pass through walls generally suck, especially given noise alerting them of where to go... 12:12:17 Eronarn: M_DEAF? 12:14:40 bh: i wonder if the right approach is to treat it more like a monster that can't go through walls 12:15:04 Eronarn: but arms coming out of walls! 12:18:22 bh: an example would be like: you have a 'haunting presence' fake monster and it can only go where a flying monster would. the poltergeist then appears in and can only move within walls in LOS of the presence; if you walk away it should dematerialize in a turn or two. then it can show up again right near you, if you move next to another wall, rather than having to actually move through connecting walls 12:19:16 Eronarn: for some reason that reminds me of Super Mario Brothers 3 12:19:21 i think something like that is going to get better results: a monster that sort of follows you, but not through walls unless it can path around them, and is only 'active' while it can grab you 12:21:05 <|amethyst> bh: if you're interested, my hook is cd crawl-ref/source ; ctags -R --exclude=contrib 12:21:32 <|amethyst> bh: (well, actually, put ()& around that) 12:22:04 bh: btw, for inspiration: http://magiccards.info/isd/en/58.html 12:22:30 Eronarn: that card is 1) awful, 2) nightmare fuel 12:23:06 <|amethyst> bh: using that in post-commit, post-merge, post-checkout; and in post-rewrite I wrap it in an if [ "$1" = rebase ] since commit --amend already fires the post-commit hook 12:23:11 bh: it's quite good in innistrad limited, but otherwise yeah. and yeah :) 12:23:52 <|amethyst> bh: arguably I should write that to a temp file instead, and only copy over the tags when they are finished 12:24:14 |amethyst: I'll use it if you add it to the standard hooks. I'm too disorganized to maintain my own :) 12:24:39 <|amethyst> hooks aren't part of the repository 12:25:33 copying from SMB3, mmm. I've got shouted at when I wanted crap burning bushes (how come they can spit fire?) in ZotDef with piranha plants; another good ZotDef monster could be a chain skull dog. 12:25:50 <|amethyst> I mean, I can add it to crawl-ref/git-hooks but you'd still have to add something (symlinks or wrappers) in .git/hooks/ 12:26:52 better to not link to the hooks directory 12:27:02 kilobyte: a zotdef that refd a lot of games would be pretty fun 12:27:14 will break when you check out a commit that doesn't have them, or has a buggy version 12:27:19 zelda, mario, final fantasy... 12:27:22 <|amethyst> yeah 12:28:10 LIGHT WARRIOR, you must collect the four ORBS OF ZOT 12:30:14 you can actually commit hooks I think? 12:30:17 but it's probably an awful idea 12:38:03 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:41:53 Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.11 12:42:08 -!- swarmer has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:44:47 -!- Rofaner has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:45:13 -!- swarmer has quit [Client Quit] 12:46:46 <|amethyst> (I retitled that commit, since the title didn't make much sense without my commit which it reverted) 12:47:43 hmm, git.develz.org has stopped mirroring commits :( 12:47:45 <|amethyst> hm, looks like HUP-aborting a cblink would waste a turn too? 12:47:56 <|amethyst> yeah, HangedMan pointed that out earlier 12:48:04 |amethyst: it does. that killed a game I once played 12:48:07 <|amethyst> kilobyte: any clue why git.develz.org isn't updating 12:48:14 (died due to wasting the turn due to cblink HUP) 12:52:24 |amethyst: no idea; it's not available from the crawl user 12:55:28 <|amethyst> Napkin: CDO's repo seems to have stopped updating 12:55:45 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:07:08 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1544-g16b5b17: Don't lose mana and time on HUP-aborted cblink. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=16b5b170620b 13:07:09 Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.11 13:07:15 hm, does the frequency of portals out really not scale with abyss depth? 13:07:17 I thought it did 13:07:19 bh? 13:07:55 that means there's no reason to go deeper at all if you get banished -- only while hunting for the rune 13:09:29 <|amethyst> my thought was something like: A:1 has 10% portals out and 90% portals down, A:2 30/70, A:3 60/40, A:4 90/10, A:5 100/0 13:10:11 I'm not sure there's any reason to die the two together -- if you want to dive to A:5 for the rune, it should be possible, with the penalty being you get lots of monsters 13:10:19 so I'd think portals down should be *more* common as you go down, if anything 13:12:07 <|amethyst> !lg . place=abyss:5 s=turns,xl 13:12:07 One game for |amethyst (place=abyss:5 s=turns,xl): 459 (1) 13:12:30 <|amethyst> in that case the number of monsters needs to be seriously buffed 13:13:00 <|amethyst> I guess you still have rune vaults to contend with 13:13:23 !lg |amethyst place=abyss:5 x=char 13:13:23 1. [char=SpAK] neil the Ducker (L1 SpAK), worshipper of Lugonu, slain by an ufetubus on Abyss:5 on 2012-12-31 03:46:22, with 92 points after 459 turns and 0:03:14. 13:13:32 well Sp has an inherent advantage 13:13:41 because it has a +100 running apt, and that's the most important apt in the abyss 13:13:51 <|amethyst> that is true 13:14:03 fr running skill 13:14:04 <|amethyst> but 459 turns is kind of short 13:14:05 but the intention is to make the monsters themselves tougher as you go down, right, not just the quantity, which was meant to be a placeholder? 13:14:13 assuming the mon-pick stuff is done for 0.12 13:14:32 also, you *did* die to an ufetubus :) 13:14:37 <|amethyst> I was XL 1 :P 13:15:31 anyway, important thing seems to be scaling the gates out, rather than the gates down 13:15:49 more important to have a *reason* to go down for non-rune abyss trips than the exact details of when you can 13:16:47 btw, the starting abyss is identical to the normal abyss now, right? i.e. the rune appears etc. 13:17:16 <|amethyst> I don't think so 13:17:42 <|amethyst> I was picking up D:1 floor junk anyway 13:18:18 hmm, I thought that was going to happen since you have to descend a few levels and contend with much more dangerous areas to get the rune anyway (esp. with the new abyssal monsters) 13:21:22 <|amethyst> I don't know, still sounds risky 13:21:42 <|amethyst> after all, we could have done that after making sure that the rune spawns in a vault 13:22:15 well, you could get lucky and ninja one, but sure, I agree 13:22:26 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:44 * elliott has never liked the inconsistency much, especially when the whole reason you could get the rune from the starting abyss was that it was more tedious than easy to get the rune, so given a little luck... 13:27:49 <|amethyst> when I said "risky" I meant "risky for balance", not "risky for the player" 13:27:56 <|amethyst> the latter is obvious :) 13:28:41 <|amethyst> !lm * rune min=turns 13:28:55 121241. [2009-03-13 03:03:02] Mayhem the Skirmisher (L1 SpCK) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 64. (Abyss) 13:29:01 <|amethyst> !lm * rune min=turns -2 13:29:02 121240/121241. [2010-06-23 21:44:42] eliotn the Ducker (L1 SpCK) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 64. (Abyss) 13:29:19 <|amethyst> wouldn't be quite that fast, but... 13:29:35 <|amethyst> also, how did that happen? 13:29:51 <|amethyst> !lm * rune min=turns x=gid 13:29:53 121241. [2009-03-13 03:03:02] [game_key=Mayhem:cao:20090213030240S] Mayhem the Skirmisher (L1 SpCK) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 64. (Abyss) 13:30:03 <|amethyst> !lg Mayhem:cao:20090213030240S -log 13:30:04 Malformed argument: Mayhem:cao:20090213030240S 13:30:16 <|amethyst> !lg Mayhem rstart=20090213030240 -log 13:30:16 No games for Mayhem (rstart=20090213030240). 13:30:33 <|amethyst> !lg * gid=Mayhem:cao:20090213030240S -log 13:30:33 1. Mayhem, XL1 SpCK, T:65: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Mayhem/morgue-Mayhem-20090313-030342.txt 13:31:17 <|amethyst> oh, lucy abandonment 13:35:01 |amethyst: I know you meant for balance 13:35:11 but I don't really buy it, at least if inception achieves its goals :) 13:39:25 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 13:42:08 -!- blarh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:50:08 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:54:27 elliott: what *are* the goals for inception? I was trying to reduce the suck in the abyss. 13:54:51 good question :P 13:54:59 hunting for the rune does end up meaning hunting for an exit 13:55:07 but when a multi-level abyss was originally discussed the idea with the multiple levels was to encourage people to go down for a quicker exit, even if they were just banished 13:55:17 HangedMan: well, the rune gives you a bunch of exits 13:55:21 yes 13:55:28 though if exits were more common as you went deeper this could be redundant 13:55:36 just woke up making sure I'm getting things right 13:55:52 <|amethyst> elliott: not entirely, because you might be re-banished after getting the rune and escaping 13:56:35 re-banished and also using the abyss-to-exit features in pan 13:56:42 |amethyst: sure, but if you got the rune you are much more likely to be in a position to dive down deep for an exit anyway 13:56:56 I guess pan is a point but I hate those exits through the abyss anyway 13:57:10 because 13:57:11 hm.. I can fit DGNCRWL on a license plate. 13:57:40 (or HAILXOM) 13:58:06 HangedMan: ? 13:58:35 fixed, |amethyst 13:59:17 <|amethyst> Napkin: thanks 13:59:33 <|amethyst> %git 13:59:33 03|amethyst * 0.12-a0-1544-g16b5b17: Don't lose mana and time on HUP-aborted cblink. 10(60 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=16b5b170620b 13:59:46 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232]] 14:01:18 !lg * place=~abyss:* s=ckiller 14:01:18 22 games for * (place=~abyss:* s=ckiller): 3x a large abomination, 3x a starcursed mass, 3x a smoke demon, 2x quitting, 2x an ancient zyme, 2x an ufetubus, 2x a wretched star, a sun demon, a blizzard demon, a small abomination, an efreet, an Executioner 14:01:27 yes... more bodies 14:02:14 <|amethyst> !lg * place=~abyss:* xl>5 s=ckiller 14:02:17 One game for * (place=~abyss:* xl>5 s=ckiller): a large abomination 14:02:22 -!- wheals has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:26 !lg * place=~abyss:* s=map 14:02:26 22 games for * (place=~abyss:* s=map): 22x 14:02:27 <|amethyst> no one's been for real 14:02:28 |amethyst: you're a buzz kill. 14:02:37 <|amethyst> bza is planning on going soon I think 14:02:44 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 14:02:49 <|amethyst> after he clears zot 14:03:18 as in clear, but leave the orb? 14:03:32 <|amethyst> that was my interpretation 14:03:58 just scum orb spawns for a banish 14:04:10 the dieselrobin stuff starting in a few days could also be of interest 14:05:24 elliott: I think my most important inception change was removing skeletal warriors. 14:05:38 <|amethyst> hm, maybe I should have sizzell and henzell include oplace in abyss.exit messages now 14:07:03 -!- Sizzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:13 could still do more with a quick trim 14:07:14 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:22 -!- Dixbert_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:53 plain wraiths, shadows, necrophages, wights, ice beasts, sky beasts, fungi, lone plain deep dwarves... 14:09:38 HangedMan: make a patch, I'll commit it. 14:10:03 there's variety and pacing and then there's just stuff that is more boring and weak then the rest of the stuff in abyss 14:10:50 -!- Dixbert has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:12:15 <|amethyst> what about 5s? 14:12:24 -!- eb has quit [] 14:13:00 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:17 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:20 removing the 5s would change the balance a lot more then the rest because of of their weights 14:13:52 -!- bleak has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:16:07 -!- bleak` has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:47 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:36:11 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 14:36:28 -!- freefall has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:03 -!- freefall has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:30 <|amethyst> !lm buffalo66 rune=abyssal -tv:<3 14:42:33 25. buffalo66, XL27 DEFE, T:53757 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 14:45:49 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:28 <|amethyst> !lm * rune=abyssal place=abyss:4 -tv:<3 14:46:29 1. Vakalix, XL27 MuCK, T:86224 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 14:49:34 !lm * rune=abyssal place=abyss:4 -tv:<3 14:49:35 1. 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18:04:05 this is not a good seething chaos cloud trap message when a monster trips it 18:04:15 and goes berserk but that's just a side-benefit 18:15:33 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1545-g7a2ed47: Simplify. 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 11-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7a2ed4745eb9 18:15:33 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1546-gd596081: Note entering Abyss:5. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d596081b4403 18:26:25 -!- vimpulse has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:59 -!- bleak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:30:03 -!- Jayrays has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:30:40 -!- codile has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 18:34:47 -!- bleak has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:36:03 -!- joosa has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:36:14 -!- bleak- has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:37:52 -!- [1]bleak has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:39:51 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 18:56:20 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:57:40 -!- wheals has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:08 -!- rast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:42 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:10:33 -!- shirish has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:53 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:17:30 -!- jiero has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:18:24 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:48 -!- Froggeryz has quit [] 19:19:41 !lm * place=abyss:* 19:19:41 17. [2013-01-01 01:02:58] HangedMan the Thaumaturge (L18 DgIE) escaped from the Abyss! 19:20:55 the initial dive from abyss:1-4 was kind of uneventful and I'd prefer the abyssal stairs to have more guards/vaults because when diving it's almost no effort to 19:21:13 New Dis layout generator (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6485) by reid 19:21:30 I think it's fine if getting to the stairs is easy, but the deeper floors should be much more noticably harder than they are 19:21:33 on abyss:5 itself after spending 1000 turns whittling through my golem abyss rune vault (good job me) the generation spiraled a little past out of control 19:22:03 -!- dagonfive has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:23:02 and dealing with the abyssals paired with lots of abyss spawns was neat 19:23:23 I can certainly call it an improvement, if not perfect 19:28:47 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:29:35 HangedMan: we just need more stair vaults 19:29:43 hehehehehe 19:30:32 I still opine that the rune should *never* spawn on the floor 19:30:54 could use the silver rune mimic trick to keep abyssal rune mimics in 19:31:44 HangedMan: well you're meant to be able to dive 19:31:55 having the stairs themselves be dangerous would be bad IMO 19:32:10 because the whole idea is that you could escape to them, or decide that it's safer to go down for a quicker abyss 19:32:38 bh: the general structure looked good when watching HangedMan but honestly I found it nearly impossible to distinguish Abyss:1 and Abyss:5, even in terms of the amount of monsters 19:32:56 I think more obvious scaling -- even if it's just ramping up the numbers of monsters more drastically -- is very important 19:33:04 elliott: I don't get mon-pick :) 19:33:06 but it certainly looks much much less annoying and more interesting than the previous abyss 19:33:19 bh: well, it already has spawn amount scaling, right? 19:33:23 just needs dialling up 19:33:39 the number of monsters that spawn on abyss shifts scale 19:33:45 oh 19:33:46 the basal spawn rate does not 19:33:58 that explains the teleporting into what ended up being twelve monsters 19:34:02 if someone points me to where that code lives I'll turn the knobs 19:34:10 with three starcursed masses 19:34:59 HangedMan: ha! 19:35:24 it was also with an exit vault surrounded by bushes 19:35:34 THREE starcursed masses? 19:35:50 freezing cloud kind of laughs at them splitting up 19:36:10 but it let the other monsters poke at me for an uncomfortable while 19:36:10 Yeah, this is true 19:37:00 actually, it was probably half freezing cloud and half metabolic englaciation 19:38:07 Either way, it's probably good that they're manageable if you make a specific effort to manage them 19:38:17 yeah 19:38:29 So far, they actually seem to be working out pretty well in that regard, from what I've seen 19:38:48 Definitely scary, but not usually unfair if you try dealing with them intelligently 19:38:51 DracoOmega: <3 thanks for all the monsters 19:39:00 although deaths to masses are very painful to watch 19:39:16 HangedMan: Well, that's because a lot of them are kind of trainwrecks in the first place, aren't they? 19:39:30 as the abyss attracts 19:42:31 -!- MaxFrosty has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:02 -!- Pepe[netbook] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:24 oh there we are. mon-place.cc 386 -- rate = 5 - div_rand_round(you.depth, 9); 19:43:35 that's leftover from depth 27 abyss 19:44:29 bah, should have waited a day 19:45:03 HangedMan: hrm? 19:51:23 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:51:24 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:57:58 -!- jiero is now known as archl 20:00:34 HangedMan: ok. I found the knob to turn. 20:00:56 -!- dptr1988 has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:04:38 for every level beyond the first, you get a coinflip to get an additional monster every 50 turns. 20:04:47 that might be lethality inducing 20:05:18 sounds fine 20:05:21 sounds like even probably not enough 20:05:43 sadist :) 20:06:47 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC] 20:07:38 -!- NekoRex has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:08:26 well abyss:5 is meant to be dramatically more than abyss:1 right 20:08:46 it's kind of bad if you just want to dive always because the differences aren't really noticeable and you get the rune a lot quicker 20:08:55 I mean, eventually the spawn weights will be changed, rather than just spawn rate, I assume 20:09:14 So that you just stop getting popcorn eventually, rather than getting LOTS of popcorn 20:09:19 sure 20:09:22 just talking about short-term 20:09:29 Yes, I do agree with you 20:09:34 The difference should be fairly immediately obvious 20:09:49 ok. Then this should do: depth-in-5 chance of getting another spawn 20:09:52 (Though still mild enough that Abyss:5 isn't horrible horribl death all the time, I think) 20:09:53 for each level 20:10:10 I'm not quite sure what "getting another spawn" there means 20:10:16 presumably it doesn't mean a single spawn for the whole generated abyss area? 20:11:13 elliott: a monster spawns every 50 turns. One level 2, you'd have a 2/5ths chance of having a second spawn, 3, you might get a third as well, and so on 20:11:43 That means that Abyss:5 has not quite double the spawn rate of Abyss:1? 20:11:57 DracoOmega: no. It means Abyss:5 has Abyss:1 spawn rate on crack 20:12:11 here, this'll be easier shown with a patch 20:12:22 so it'd be 6 times the spawns on abyss:5? 20:12:26 that sounds like it might work 20:12:26 Oh, it's cumultative 20:12:34 yeah. that 20:12:35 So Abyss:5 doesn't just have a 5 in 5 chance of one extra 20:12:41 bh: what I worry about is that they'll all spawn at once every 50 turns 20:12:45 as opposed to e.g. one spawning every 10 turns 20:12:50 but it certainly sounds better than the status quo 20:12:59 elliott: I don't want to rewrite the monster spawn loop. 20:13:06 I'm actually not sure how monster spawn timers work currently, either inside or outside the abyss 20:13:48 there's a timer and then you have some spawn rate chance of getting a monster 20:14:45 Does this work the same in the abyss as everywhere else? 20:15:03 https://gist.github.com/4424788 20:15:13 mostly, but the abyss always spawns something 20:15:21 since it's big and you might not meet things 20:15:50 that patch looks pretty good to me... wouldn't it be basically the same to up the spawn rate depending on depth but spawn the same amount of monsters, though? 20:15:56 as in, isn't that rate = line already doing that? 20:15:58 Incidentally, I think that change there might make Abyss:5 TOO insane. If it literally spawns 5 times as many monsters as Abyss:1 20:16:22 Though I suppose you don't need to go that deep to get the rune 20:16:40 well it sounds worth a try 20:16:42 since it's optional anyway 20:16:53 better for the differences to be over the top than not obvious enough for testing, IMO 20:17:10 Yes, perhaps 20:17:15 elliott: I'd recommend patching that in and trying it out. I'm a rubbish player 20:17:29 Though given that this looks exponential, it mightn't make a huge difference at, say, 2 or 3 while still being crazy at 5 20:17:37 But practical testing is probably needed 20:18:09 bh: better get someone with commit rights :P 20:18:15 I hear that bh has them 20:18:20 elliott: I meant in your local build 20:18:40 ah 20:18:48 I'll get it updated 20:19:07 -!- Siskiyou has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:38 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:55 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:31 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 20:36:37 -!- ark____ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:37:47 -!- Siskiyou has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:11 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:52:19 -!- ToastyP has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:12 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:56:01 MarvinPA: elliott thinks the abyss needs more spawns as it gets deeper. What do you think of this: https://gist.github.com/4424788 20:59:11 -!- anidude has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:11 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:01:49 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:04:33 !tell DracoOmega I got the starspawn to wrap its tentacles around a pillar! 21:04:33 bh: OK, I'll let DracoOmega know. 21:11:20 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:12:08 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:15:48 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:17:03 -!- Rebthor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:17:31 -!- Isvaffl has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:39 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:52 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:31:09 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:51 -!- st_ has quit [Quit: sleep] 21:36:15 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:48 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:53:13 I think we've probably been over this: What are the objections to removing 5's from the abyss? 21:53:49 makes actual threats spawn more 21:54:39 'objections' 21:59:36 makes actually dangerous stuff spawn possibly too much more, strengthens 0 uses, uh, breather encounters in the middle of the abyss, uhhh 21:59:38 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 22:00:20 -!- HangedMan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:33 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:00:56 -!- dagonfive1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:01:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:45 maybe something about pacing or giving a way to block dangerous things off with easy things for positioning/escape purposes idk 22:10:03 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:59 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:19:43 -!- squidfeatures has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:31 -!- anidude has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:30 -!- archl has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:35:17 -!- GON_again has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:39 -!- Siskiyou has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:39 not sure it is a good idea to remove them outright immediately 22:43:45 probably it doesn't need as much 5spam as it has though 22:44:23 elliott: I'll reduce their frequency 22:46:00 along with zombies and skeletons. 22:47:45 |amethyst: what's the rebuild trigger called again? :) 22:48:13 03bh 07* 0.12-a0-1547-g591c4bc: Boost abyss spawn rate 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 5+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=591c4bc818e1 22:48:13 03bh 07* 0.12-a0-1548-g3cfc817: Adjust abyss monster chances 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 12-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3cfc817a6665 22:48:20 -!- mivue has quit [Quit: mivue] 22:54:25 -!- Hosg has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:03 -!- Adder has quit [Quit: Changing server] 23:09:26 -!- Luxivar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:01 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:12 -!- blackcustard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:03 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:49 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:28:37 03bh 07* 0.12-a0-1549-g1ee5af6: Make spatial maelstroms likely 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1ee5af65b7b2 23:29:06 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:53 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:03 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1549-g1ee5af6 (34) 23:46:20 -!- Rebthor has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:46:25 -!- mamga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:51:44 -!- tensorpu1ding has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:56:28 -!- GON_again has quit [Quit: Leaving.]