00:03:19 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1444-g758438f (34) 00:05:09 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1444-g758438f (34) 00:13:31 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:19:12 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1444-g758438f 00:22:00 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:22 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:33:38 -!- Wehk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:37:17 -!- Wehk has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:52:50 -!- imantor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:55:44 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:57:22 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:57:33 -!- Pikkle has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:58:21 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 00:58:26 -!- unpaidbill has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:00:24 -!- linsy has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:01:31 -!- Pikkle has joined ##crawl-dev 01:07:54 -!- neuwiz has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:07:58 -!- bleak has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:12:46 -!- Linksi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:13:38 -!- Linksi has joined ##crawl-dev 01:28:02 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:44:52 -!- wasd22 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:10:14 -!- Pikkle has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:18:36 Tome of destruction and identification (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6481) by crate 02:23:44 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:02 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: BRB, DEAD] 02:27:37 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:56 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:33:48 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:01:35 -!- jiero has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121129165506]] 03:02:01 -!- bza has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:03:30 -!- oldmanlol is now known as animegrampa 03:04:19 -!- MorganL has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:14:25 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:54 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:27:10 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:41:28 -!- Vizer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:44:21 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:45:27 -!- Vizer_ is now known as Vizer 03:58:20 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:08:44 -!- Leissi is now known as Leissi^ 04:22:41 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:59 -!- Crazylemon64 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:33:21 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:35:19 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1444-g758438f 05:01:40 -!- Senjai has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:11:12 HangedMan, Eronarn: the current umbra tile has been added by a talentless hack who can't draw his way out of a wet paper bag, so we have _something_ 05:11:25 looks like no one stepped up with an improvement in months, though 05:11:42 if the concept seems ok to you, I can add more variants 05:12:57 if not, gimp is ------> over there 05:13:33 other options are nudging people who can draw, or thinking up something else ourselves 05:18:04 -!- hart has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:55 -!- Pikkle has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:16 -!- blabber_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:23:44 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:39 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:27:52 -!- nooodl_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27:53 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 05:29:02 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:37 -!- nooodl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:39:14 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:42:39 -!- domiryuu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:52:20 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:28 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:35 -!- jiero has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:02:58 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:03:27 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:04:44 -!- ajikeshi has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:08:57 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 06:12:59 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:33 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:16:52 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:30:36 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:39:12 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:01:48 -!- Yllodra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:04 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:33 -!- klz has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:18:35 -!- dagonfive has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:18:40 -!- Yll has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:38 kilobyte: http://i.imgur.com/riPn9.png 07:27:59 not totally sold on it, but i think it could be doable 07:30:11 edges need to be fuzzier to work with nonsquare-haloes 07:30:42 that, and it's too opaque. Remember that Yreddites will spend most of the time with a servitor in their posse. 07:31:11 -!- jiero has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:31:14 sure... does the general idea seem okay though? of having a relatively simple diagonally banded opaque field? 07:31:38 fits with halo/suppression/silence a lot better 07:31:58 it'll be rendered below the character/clouds/monsters, though 07:32:15 no way to make it render above? 07:32:22 ha, ha, ha 07:32:39 I don't think it should be 07:32:45 (rendered above) 07:35:08 (it would be easy to do in webtiles, kind of hard in local) 07:40:23 http://i.imgur.com/oLy6B.png 07:40:53 (too lazy to do the clouds) 07:41:34 it might need doublethick black lines to make it more obvious though 07:47:34 helsbecter: 07:47:38 01:18 < helsbecter> it's designed so that if you are mashing o and tab you get in a lot of trouble 07:47:41 01:18 < helsbecter> and if you're playing normally you won't get so fucked 07:47:48 please don't design vaults like this 07:48:12 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:48:38 in fact, there have been threads before about how to convert exisiting vaults to be less like this, because it sucks blundering into something deadly because you were trying to make your gameplay less tedious 07:49:38 mmm do you want to see it 07:50:47 it's not like ~death is certain~ or something 07:50:48 http://pastebin.com/6NBqGZKJ 07:50:52 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Quit: 20% cooler] 07:51:25 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:51:40 basically you will autoexplore into or next to a dart trap, and if you o again you'll open the door and get hit by a gnoll, then get hit by the one on top as you run by the door 07:52:08 but if you approached it normally you'd probably see the gnoll on top when you pop up into the intersection 07:53:50 I mean the number of gnolls could be cut to two or whatever but it doesn't do anything unfair I think 07:54:35 stuff like that happens with gnolls naturally all the time. 07:56:33 there's also a bit of a quandry with getting people to not autoexplore an area of interest but dart trap - gold - door as a recognizable small scenario is just promoting spoilers regardless of extent 07:57:18 also two goblins and a gnoll is close to not worth caring about on d:3 anyway, you can still walk away at normal speed 07:57:40 the specific vault is less of a problem than the problem of vaults that benefit from you not using autoexplore 07:57:42 also the scneario as is very easily has noise move the gold and goblins/gnoll around 07:58:14 yeah it's not really perfect but the monsters act as they are supposed to most of the time 07:58:15 well inherently there are going to be benefits to being more careful around certain vaults 07:59:05 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:19 and usually unless somebody has a both tedious and weak and careful game most don't exactly otab through rune/orb vaults 08:00:02 is it a consensus that there really shouldn't be any tactical kind of vaults before like orc entrance? 08:00:20 helsbecter: it is a good idea if they stop autoexplore before they dump you into a lot of trouble 08:00:28 there's nothing wrong with tactics, the issue is gimmicks 08:00:56 they shouldn't be any worse than an unspoiled player, or be built to rely on the specifics of the autoexplore algo, for sure 08:01:39 well, tactically speaking, you stop on the dart trap and it's probably a better idea to check behind you before pressing forward 08:01:58 and if you do you see the gnoll and while everything wakes up you take no damage 08:02:59 but an unskilled player and autoexplore will both pick the gold and the door 08:03:06 and a lazy one. 08:03:25 there are kind of a lot of people in earlygame trying to get to the rest of the game 08:04:07 right but isn't this just bringing 'the rest of the game' to them? 08:04:07 I don't care too much about this beyond thought excercises because only people already prone to dying to non-vault stuff in earlygame will die to a gnoll and two goblins anyway 08:04:08 helsbecter: so what about the unskilled or lazy players who've seen this vault before? 08:04:41 vaults that you fall into the trap once, and never again are not good 08:05:19 well, there _could_ be another item beyond the door to make it so people will purposefully "trigger the trap" 08:06:15 true, also if the trap isn't relevant enough that you care 08:07:46 okay. I was thinking about making a similar kinds of stuff for hell vaults. Is the idea better there, provided I'm more careful about making it so spoilers don't help you? 08:08:17 stuff like "hey I want that item" "shit" 08:08:29 although it's hard to really beat apportation 08:08:51 hells don't generally have loot, although a staircase would work 08:09:32 -!- Pikkle has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:10:20 helsbecter: statues/glass/grates beat apportation 08:10:33 though they do make it sort of obvious what's going to happen 08:10:46 yeah that is way more spoilery than a dart trap 08:13:57 remind me guys, why do we have dart traps in the first place? 08:14:51 getting the s|dart || out of the way 08:15:12 but I presume variety paired right beside the slightly more acceptable earlier needle trap 08:16:36 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:19 I guess I'll make some other vaults and think about it for a while 08:21:54 the vault docs really should promote just making d:13-26 098 vaults 08:21:58 as first vaults 08:22:44 I made some zin altars I think are pretty~ 08:22:57 it is a million times more important to practice examining player-monster sight/movements and threat-loot-interest balance before basically any gimmick 08:23:45 basically you shouldn't even think of submitting your first number of vaults most likely 08:24:14 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:22 -!- rast- is now known as rast 08:24:38 there is also that 08:40:18 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:43:51 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:47:45 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 08:51:22 kilobyte: i say replace dart traps with spiked floors 08:52:02 low damage, infinite use, and natural (like shafts) rather than a trap 08:52:35 natural? 08:52:42 HangedMan: non-mechanical 08:52:49 oh 08:53:02 though they could be mechanical spikes that stab out of the floor when you step on them, i guess 08:53:24 clearly shouldn't hurt jellies 08:53:52 -!- helsbecter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:07 mmm... a landslide trap would be another cool one 08:55:33 TOME has one dungeon where the walls can fall in, dealing huge amounts of damage 08:55:49 if vault defined, it wouldn't be a problem for walls to be generated 08:57:56 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:59:11 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:36 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:01:50 HangedMan: elemental corridor feels quite light on monsters, I'd double the number 09:02:04 hmm, fair 09:03:01 maybe a little bit more even 09:03:01 does the cloud use seem fine? 09:04:10 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 09:04:28 I think they shouldn't make exclusions 09:05:16 hmm, considering the branches involved sounds fair enough 09:06:16 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Pacra] 09:06:22 yeah, also they don't spread much and are predictable 09:08:12 HangedMan: haha um boss arena has a little bug 09:08:20 floor is flaming corpses! 09:08:26 oh whoops 09:08:49 SHUFFLE: dD, eE / fF / 56, 56 / 65 / 55 / 66 / 77 / .. 09:08:55 I wonder what dumb thing I did here 09:09:32 (SHUFFLE: dD, eE / fF / 56, 56 / 65 / 55 / 66 / 77 / '' quickfix) 09:09:50 thinking of the best fixes 09:10:26 -!- linsy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:10:40 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:52 -!- linsy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:15:47 i should really write a shuffle generator tool 09:15:52 so people that aren't insane can make vaults 09:17:19 as a person who does vaults but not regular coding I have a completely reversed position 09:17:34 I'd rather figure out a virtual computer in crawl over half of C++ 09:21:05 HangedMan: i'm talking a tool like: 20% elf, 5% wizard, 75% nothing 09:21:05 HangedMan: I've had an instance of area placing all three downstairs, but some portals are outside 09:21:56 I think probably it should only place one > but more portals 09:22:19 so there's a higher chance of being in it, but doesn't leave the reast of the level with 1 or 0 stairs 09:22:36 otherwise, I like it 09:23:26 k 09:23:46 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:25:09 eronarn: would a shuffle tool mean it'd automatically make A / A / A / A / B / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' / ' (with more glyphs to make that actually be worthwhile instead of SUBST) or would it make crawl actually allow weighing shuffles so I never have to do stuff like that again 09:25:33 HangedMan: it would do the former. the latter would just be fixing crawl :) 09:25:45 yes, nobody is ever allowed to fix crawl 09:25:58 s,allowed,able 09:26:09 also valid 09:32:57 -!- bleak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:35:52 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:39:12 -!- phirt has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:48:24 I feel I may be missing something obvious, but is there no straightforward way to obtain the summoner of a given monster? 09:49:22 ikiller :P 09:51:33 Oh, it's easy to get a textual representation of it, but I mean the actual monster itself 09:51:55 then no clue 09:51:57 I am not sure that Crawl actually preserves this info, but I may be overlooking something 09:53:34 HangedMan: what do you think about putting a hellion in the centre of hellfire club? It works well when one of the efreet fireballs you, the guys in the alcoves all come out 09:54:08 hrm 09:54:09 Which is fine if I make this a player-only spell, but means that this particular behavior is more annoying if I cannot assume that the player 'owns' it 09:54:12 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:54:59 I guess that'd work out with an up-hatch island 09:55:17 oh right they don't fly 10:03:57 HangedMan: doesn't look like it in game, but in the .des the snake vault reminds me of this angband vault https://github.com/angband/angband/blob/master/lib/edit/vault.txt#L286 10:04:32 clearly have accidentally learned from the best 10:04:58 "# Use this to measure columns 1" 10:12:35 how does one get their password reset 10:12:47 I don't think I even gave the account an email :| 10:17:14 HangedMan: don't know much about about abyss vaults so no comments on the others, though the shadowy one looks nice 10:19:51 abyss vaults are a nice headache 10:20:46 23x23 to rotate or 23x28 dimensions max, sometimes re-centering cuts off your vault and everything is bad forever, if you use empty space like a glyph in abyss vaults you can somewhat purposefully place shifting terrain, uh, 10:21:00 and I guess abyss context 10:21:16 which is in a way no context at all 10:21:54 I've always been surprised how people starting off with gimmick vaults didn't try doing abyss vaults since almost everything works about as well as it doesn't work for abyss 10:23:34 -!- tigertrap has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:23:39 -!- ZiMMy is now known as Guest76589 10:23:52 -!- eeviac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745]] 10:23:53 -!- Guest76589 has quit [Client Quit] 10:33:53 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:49 any idea how to make jelly form work? 10:39:54 @??jelly 10:39:54 jelly (04J) | Spd: 9 | HD: 3 | HP: 15-30 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Dam: 808(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(12), 03poison, 08acid, asphyx, 12drown | XP: 22 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 10:41:24 slow moving, can't fight well, can't cast, etc -- other bad forms at least give you a speed or defensive boost 10:42:37 eating is problematic (people would scum it when desperate for food), so is floating on water (unlike ice, can't be recast...) 10:43:06 I'll scratch it off, I guess 10:48:54 that leaves only tree, porcupine and perhaps wisp as bad_forms ideas 10:51:32 -!- jiero has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:51:39 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:11 (most animals would be redundant with pig) 10:52:27 -!- linsy has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:59:17 wisp being air walk? 10:59:30 blinky air walk? 11:00:01 imp form with blink/teleportitis might be fun 11:00:18 mild confusion + blinkitis 11:03:16 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:04:50 st_: and rHellfire!! 11:05:40 fire vortex form 11:06:03 hell sentinel form 11:06:04 x 11:06:35 rock worm form 11:06:39 what could go wrong 11:06:54 nome form 11:08:21 would give a powerful ability, what I want here is a set of forms that won't be scummed for 11:08:47 while leaving the player able to deal with it somehow 11:09:22 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:35 tree form sounds like something potentially worh scumming for 11:09:52 not sure scumming for these is really a problem given you could get something crap 11:10:34 yeah, kind of hard to balance huge defense (necessary to let the player not die with -MOVE -TELE) 11:11:10 <|amethyst> eeviac: which server? 11:11:17 cdo 11:11:17 pig, bat and porcupine are fast so you can just walk away then try again 11:11:31 <|amethyst> eeviac: ah, the one I can't help with :/ 11:11:48 :( 11:11:52 <|amethyst> eeviac: Napkin would be the person to talk to; not sure if kilobyte has access to dgl or not 11:12:02 |amethyst: not dgl 11:12:04 it's not urgent though, I was just testing something 11:13:05 I can read core dump and force an update of console builds, can't mess with user accounts, kill stuck processes or update webtiles 11:14:42 -!- Gmork has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:14:56 well you can't necessarily just walk away 11:15:11 especially since you can only get bad forms from a consumable, right? 11:15:15 or a hostile enemy 11:16:15 Note: pig form is already extremely terrible if you get hit by it while pinned and do not have unarmed combat skill 11:21:06 -!- kek has quit [Quit: off to the beach :) cya in 2013] 11:21:22 kilobyte: make jelly form eating regain you HP, but not satiation, and hide satiation while it is up :) 11:21:31 inconsistent with jiyva, but gameplay-wise, this would be fine 11:22:08 * elliott doesn't think people desperately scumming forms you have to *wait out* while starving is an issue 11:22:26 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:22:30 alternately you could make it only give normal satiation for food you eat while in it, because afterwards it's just in your stomach... 11:22:36 since if you are that desperate for food and can somehow find a lot of items (but no monsters?) quickly and have a bunch of bad scrolls right with you 11:22:48 (or was it a potion?) 11:22:49 then you still have to get lucky or you'll starve resting off the bad forms! 11:23:20 the idea of perma-eating expensive items to get a big HP boost to survive jellyform is a good one though 11:23:24 so it should definitely be added 11:23:42 giving hp but no satiation sounds good 11:23:46 (in fact, i would suggest making it a player spell, just not in any books - randart only) 11:23:59 -!- helsbecter has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:35 expensive items include the piles of demon whips you can get from gehenna 11:26:07 and all the junk that people usually sacrifice to jiyva in orc probably adds up, too 11:26:08 If you can survive Gehenna, I don't think there'll be too many situations where scumming hostile polymorph for healing makes any sense 11:26:35 deep dwarves 11:26:54 Oh, I suppose. You could just make them not heal in jelly form, though 11:33:22 kilobyte: other potentially interesting bad forms: constrictor snake, basilisk or catoblepas, snail, leech, elephant, brain worm, rock worm, swamp drake, steam dragon, giant eyeball, shining eye, eye of devastation, fire crab, butterfly, yellow/red wasp, boring beetle, tarantella, jumping spider, snapping turtle, ugly thing, sky beast, eel (in water), lava snake (in lava), bear (with berserk!) 11:34:16 some of those are rather more magical things; they'd be 'bad' generally, but possibly actually good earlier in the game before you have useful equipment 11:34:33 but i think it's fine if the effect sometimes actually makes you stronger, as long as there is always a downside 11:35:29 <|amethyst> wouldn't any form that isn't humanoid (almost) always have the downside of melding equipment? 11:35:35 (it could also be tiered, using power - resist, such that a weak caster against a strong player might turn them into a stronger form, and a strong caster against a weak player could turn them into a jellyfish) 11:35:43 of those I'd prefer basilisk, jumping spider, snapping turtle, sky beast, and bear 11:35:45 rock worm lets you pass walls, which is often a major thing 11:35:45 -!- twzt_ is now known as twist 11:36:11 |amethyst: yes - and luckily, our more interesting forms are the non-humanoid ones 11:36:15 -!- twist is now known as Guest65813 11:36:30 <|amethyst> by that argument, Dragon Form is an acceptible bad form 11:36:34 kilobyte: yeah, boring beetle might be a better rock worm... 11:37:39 |amethyst: i have no problem with dragon form being a rare possibility of being polymorphed, as long as we take some safeguards to make it less scummable. remember, it nukes your EV and gives you cold vuln too - it's not all positive 11:38:04 my current version (from february) has trees able to use a weapon, shield, cap and rings 11:38:05 <|amethyst> no form is all positive 11:38:11 <|amethyst> or people would be in it all the time 11:38:39 almost all of crawl isn't all positive 11:38:58 nobody with unarmed combat skill is going to complain about getting turned into a mighty dragon 11:39:02 like, some made up numbers: if at high XL a given cast is 1/2 likely to bypass MR, and it gives dragon form 1/10 of the time, lasting 30 turns - i'm okay with that potential for scummability 11:39:12 as opposed to, say, a tree 11:39:33 Eronarn: I believe the idea is to add a bad form consumable too 11:40:03 elliott: a very unreliable dragon form potion isn't so much better than agil/might/bril that it should be off the table 11:40:10 esp. if it's a short duration 11:41:06 Bulwark card -> tree :p 11:41:21 Eronarn: I don't think it's worth worrying about scumming these 11:41:26 kilobyte: i think tree might work better if they can use everything other than boots. make it very much 'you are rooted to the ground' as the effect 11:41:28 but I do think it's hard to make a case for dragon form being, well, bad 11:41:38 why not add spider form and ice form as bad forms? 11:41:49 or hell, blade hands -- not being able to use a heal wounds wand is kind of bad, and the spellcasting penalty is significant 11:41:55 elliott: yes, let's! 11:41:59 I mean, all forms have drawbacks, presumably bad forms are meant to be worse than your average form 11:42:06 this is already the case with jiyva's wrath doing those forms 11:42:23 also, cards that do those forms are often not desirable even though they are good spells 11:42:29 Eronarn: kind of hard to wear armour over bark 11:42:31 and really, any form you can't cancel out of is risky 11:43:41 kilobyte: nonsense - we have a stoneskin spell, and many other games have barkskin 11:44:01 in fact, still being able to wear armor is typically one of the benefits of such spells 11:46:29 kilobyte: i'm imagining something like http://magiccards.info/aq/en/63.html except its lower half is roots (so give it naga/centaur deformed body, but it can still wear armor, and the AC is offset by the tree AC) 11:47:23 another tree with equipment: http://magiccards.info/mt/en/128.html 11:47:30 http://magiccards.info/gvl/en/16.html 11:47:31 <|amethyst> My thought is: it should be possible to have a monster with polymorph and no other attacks, without encouraging players to lock themselves in a room with it and wait for a good form 11:48:33 |amethyst: well you're going to have to give every single bad form zero upsides if you want that to be never ever a good idea 11:48:36 but it's kind of an edge-case 11:48:58 if you can lock yourself in a room and be safe forever then do you really need a specific form that will not last very long anyway 11:50:20 a form that can dig through walls, perhaps 11:51:19 kilobyte: boring beetle is good for that: big, beefy, slow (should make it have antennae as an extra perk!) 11:52:20 -!- linsy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:52:38 |amethyst: what if monster polymorph could always malmutate you? 11:52:50 even a slight chance of that would make scumming very unlikely 11:52:57 I meant, it's bad exactly for this reason 11:53:56 kilobyte: oh, that i disagree with - if you are so hard up on digging that you need to get poly'd a bunch to have access to a very inconvenient form of digging, we should allow it 11:54:32 as soon as you get a stone of EEs or LRD you can very timeconsumingly dig with no real risk 11:54:59 (LRD isn't tmut now, and earth miscasts are wimpy) 11:56:28 should I mention that the entire driving idea behind bad forms was to make wand of polymorph other not mutate players 11:57:14 yeah 11:57:33 alternatley, you could use contam 11:57:57 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:58:04 <|amethyst> which also mutates players 11:58:30 |amethyst: i mean only a bit of contam, enough that it'd only be a problem if you were chain poly'd 11:58:55 <|amethyst> you mean like when you encounter a monster with a wand of polymorph? 11:58:58 because i really hope we're not really worried about someone getting poly'd a bunch until contam, pillar dancing, and repeating until they become a boring beetle/dragon/whatever 11:59:40 <|amethyst> I just think poly other forms should be worse in general than the high-level form spells 11:59:53 <|amethyst> poly other into a spider or ice beast sounds fine 12:00:21 <|amethyst> dragon, lich, statue not so much, even though they all have drawbacks 12:00:57 |amethyst: monster AI probably shouldn't zap you with a poly wand if you are already poly'd into something weak 12:01:23 and i think it's okay if we have e.g. shining eyes just keep zapping you and risk mutating you from it 12:01:38 (they and lumps are the only two poly-only monsters, i think?) 12:01:42 necromutation would be a good bad form actually 12:02:05 since the likelihood that it helps you when you get it is really low unless you give demons bad form 12:02:08 <|amethyst> actually, I guess that's true of necromutation 12:02:10 elliott: i have issues with a pure tmut spell turning you undead... 12:02:11 and you're prevented from drinking which is really bad 12:02:19 Eronarn: ?? 12:02:28 necromutation is tmut/necro but this is about monsters giving you bad forms 12:02:48 shining eyes sound like a malmutator rather than polymorpher to me 12:02:58 <|amethyst> elliott: right, and poly other would be pure tmut rather than tmut/necro 12:03:07 elliott: it feels to me like poly other should respect how poly works normally - can't turn you into undead, nonliving, etc. 12:03:17 I guess there should be no chance for good forms 12:03:31 well I don't really care what spell schools monster spells are in :P 12:03:36 kilobyte: i think some monster that polys you repeatedly would be fun, but yeah it doesn't have to be shining eyes 12:03:36 does the game even expose that info 12:03:47 <|amethyst> elliott: polymorph other isn't monster-only 12:04:06 well sure 12:04:16 reusing poly other for the monster spell just sounds like an implementation detail to me though 12:04:18 <|amethyst> also, necro spells make you evil 12:04:19 kilobyte: i don't think anyone has a problem with ice/spider... those are interesting bad forms 12:04:58 <|amethyst> re cross-holiness polymorph.... what if you are already in statue form? 12:05:05 i think blade hands is a good effect (it's great if you are unarmed and not so great otherwise), but it's unlike the other forms in that it isn't a whole-body thing 12:05:43 i'd be okay with it randomly turning appendages into things temporarily, but it should have more options than just 'hands => blades' 12:06:26 <|amethyst> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-WMkIfGvJc (NSFW) 12:06:28 i think statue is a good one (though i still hate statue form), but should only be added if there are a lot of bad forms, so that it's reasonably rare 12:06:36 dragon is in the same boat 12:07:43 if you poly a kobold, you're not going to get a hd dragon 12:07:45 hg 12:07:55 a no-drinking form is good (by the way, someone remember to add "You water your roots with the orange potion" to tree form) 12:08:08 kilobyte: yes, that's why i think it should be based off of player buffness in some way 12:09:33 if we hit 27 possible bad forms, and each cast can get you +/- 5 HD, that would be quite a lot of variety for most of the game (and still 5 options at the low and high end) 12:10:25 27 sounds like... a LOT to have to come up with 12:10:35 you don't say 12:10:41 tree, jelly, porcupine, spider, ice beast, pig, bat, snapping turtle, sky beast, bear, jumping spider, basilisk, statue, dragon is already over halfway there 12:11:03 and some of them would be rather derivative 12:11:56 boring beetle, butterfly, elephant, snail is another four i think would work well (possibly not boring beetle due to scumming, but seriously?) 12:11:56 human form 12:12:23 <|amethyst> So in tree form with show_player_species, would you be 7 or P ? 12:12:39 kilobyte: shrink ray / gigantoform! 12:12:57 |amethyst: treefolk are 7s 12:13:25 |amethyst: you'd be an ugly unicode character by default 12:13:58 i think red/yellow wasp would be good (fast, but frail, with a curare branded melee to discourage pursuers) 12:14:18 it's kind of a little stronger then curare 12:14:26 kind of 12:14:34 HangedMan: it's different, really 12:14:36 no asphyx, etc. 12:14:44 uh 12:14:48 |amethyst: ♣ 12:14:49 <|amethyst> that sounds like it would be better as a good form spell 12:14:53 I meant the paralysis 12:14:57 <|amethyst> mimic form 12:15:10 |amethyst: i've wanted to have mimic form for a while but i can't figure out how it should work 12:15:22 I forgot about stone statue form 12:15:44 great defenses, but -ACT is quite a bummer 12:15:54 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:16:07 kilobyte: i think it'd be more fun if all the bad forms let you act 12:16:07 -!- tsohg_ is now known as tsohg 12:16:12 we already have petrify as petrify 12:16:39 <|amethyst> ??tengu reasons[$] 12:16:39 tengu reasons[4/4]: http://th08.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2010/028/c/a/That__s_a_JOKE__Son_by_mightyfilm.jpg 12:19:55 -!- Guest65813 is now known as twzt 12:22:11 something like: http://pastebin.com/TD8vmjKa 12:22:40 it doesn't actually have to be 1-27 mind you, but that's around the range i feel we should have if we do HD tiering 12:23:35 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:25:23 also: a cause fear form would be really cool but we don't have anything other than undead and GOBs that does it currently, yeah? 12:26:58 adding lion monsters that can roar (loud noise + cause fear) for breath would be reasonable anyways, but it'd make for a pretty interesting higher level pigform 12:27:49 the more elaborate and extended these bad forms ideas get the less it becomes about patching over an unnecessary piece of frustration compared to co-opting it into an excuse to add 27 new, rare, and confusing forms of paralysis, or more excercises in double-edging things when there's a lot of crawl material to change anyway. why does crawl need more bloat? 12:28:18 <|amethyst> I kind of like the idea of the spell becoming worse for you the higher-level you are 12:28:38 <|amethyst> but I guess that does contradict player poly other 12:29:04 HangedMan: it's not actually that much extra effort to add a bunch of forms, if you're already adding a few 12:29:18 alright then, abbreviating that statement 12:29:19 and it'd result in an effect with much more replayability 12:29:21 <|amethyst> and I guess melding your better equipment makes it worse anyway 12:29:34 <|amethyst> that depends on the form 12:29:36 crawl already has a trillion things in it why does it need more bloat 12:29:43 <|amethyst> snapping turtle form, for example, isn't trivial to implement 12:29:53 why can't it be just two or three variable forms instead of 27 12:30:03 <|amethyst> since there is no AF_REACH for players 12:30:17 My personal opinion is that a small number of distinct, relatively uncomplicated forms, would serve this purpose better than a bazillion of them 12:30:29 -!- linsy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:30:39 Given that it's a fairly small facet of the game that they'll play a role in 12:31:04 HangedMan: two or three variable forms that work as well at high level as low level is unlikely, and if you want two or three that work reasonably at any given tier, you actually need quite a lot of forms 12:31:07 I mean, the effect of one wand and potentially a monster or two doesn't seem to warrent a whole detailed subsystem of the game 12:32:16 yes, I was about to ask where is this showing up beyond a floor wand to make it need late-game applications 12:33:03 <|amethyst> why not let it turn a L27 player into a spider, other than for consistency with player poly other? 12:33:56 a level 27 spider is still distinct from a level 3 spider anyway 12:34:05 Honestly, spider form is more likely to be harmful at high levels than low ones anyway 12:35:50 HangedMan: i am operating under these assumptions: 1) we will use the effect at all levels 2) the effect should be consistent with polying monsters when possible 3) the effect should be generally bad, but occasionally useful in a way difficult to scum suitably 4) the effect should have variation on the order of what it's replacing (bad mutations) 5) interesting bad forms/effects will be reused where appropriate 12:36:21 immediately questioning the first one 12:37:50 HangedMan: okay - are you against it, or do you just think it's unnecessary to fixing poly wands? 12:37:58 latter 12:38:24 not every effect has to be ubiquitous 12:38:54 HangedMan: so i'm just talking speculative design here - it would be totally doable to first make it a handful of consistent bad forms, and later expand it to use monster-poly-like tiers 12:39:32 i think that first part is a given that it will happen, i haven't seen anyone opposing it 12:40:02 would kind of like to hear about the wand being fixed and what that entails before thinking about future further uses 12:44:34 so given that goal, what about: jelly (no satiation, HP only), tree, bat, pig, spider, porcupine. skip ice beast because it's not as dramatic an effect as the others (allows some equip). maybe snail or butterfly if that doesn't seem enough truly bad low level forms. maybe boring beetle, elephant, turtle, or bear if we want to add a 'no items, but beefy' form. 12:45:00 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45:08 ice form allows as much equipment as spider 12:45:48 <|amethyst> less if you're an octopode 12:46:07 one race 12:46:19 |amethyst: that's just a bug :P 12:46:33 <|amethyst> elliott: no one liked it when I "fixed" it 12:46:56 well the bug is that optm is basically hutm because of ring melding 12:47:14 beastly sticks to blade hands 12:47:29 (yes spider and ice are crucial to tm I know) 12:47:29 whoa, ice form finally melds stuff??? 12:47:36 (well, all stuff, i mean) 12:47:53 i am so happy about that 12:48:00 <|amethyst> huh? 12:48:57 <|amethyst> did ice form once allow more equipment than spider? 12:49:12 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:49:58 <|amethyst> other than the few months between f9b2b53 and e42fbd1 (which was a bug) 12:50:32 |amethyst: for a loooong time, ice beast let you wear... caps and cloaks, i think? 12:50:44 <|amethyst> Eronarn: it let you wear caps, but so did spider form 12:51:08 <|amethyst> oh 12:51:13 <|amethyst> I see, yeah, there were cloaks 12:51:33 <|amethyst> and that was even after I started playing (unlike caps) 12:52:08 <|amethyst> was going a git log --grep 'ice form' -i but kilobyte wrote that one as "ice beast form" 12:52:13 <|amethyst> s/going/doing/ 12:52:27 |amethyst: i mentioned that i hated ice form - this was because of the inconsistencies. the tile is a quadruped, and you can butcher with claws/teeth, but you actually do bludgeoning ice damage. and you can wear cloaks/hats even though spiders couldn't (could spiders ever even wear hats...?) 12:52:43 <|amethyst> %git f9b2b53 12:52:44 03MarvinPA * 0.9.0-a0-78-gf9b2b53: No hats for spiders (and related fixes) 10(1 year, 9 months ago, 2 files, 7+ 8-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f9b2b53e4423 12:52:51 <|amethyst> %git e42fbd1 12:52:51 03MarvinPA * 0.9-a1-1373-ge42fbd1: Properly block hats in ice form 10(1 year, 6 months ago, 2 files, 1+ 9-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e42fbd199405 12:53:44 |amethyst: yeah, the genesis of that commit was me pointing out that statue form didn't let you use a shield 12:54:21 (i also hate statue form inconsistency, and until it lets you wear all armor, i am going to insist flavorwise that it turns you into a nude sculpture of yourself) 12:55:07 <|amethyst> I figured "melding" in statue form meant the armour became part of the statue 12:55:30 <|amethyst> but doesn't give AC benefit because it's always made of stone regardless of what kind of armour it is 12:56:56 -!- Pthing has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:05 |amethyst: casting stoneskin means your skin is made of stone, and armor still protects you extra there. but even if you wanted the armor to not boost AC, the right approach would be to *set* AC and just ignore armor AC - it's downright silly that you lose other armor effects 12:58:51 (countdown to someone using poly wands on themselves to cast/tele in maxwell's) 12:59:57 anyways, this is way an aside - HangedMan, could allow ice form on that list too. does that seem like an okay list otherwise? 13:01:23 because if so, i say it should be an implementable and rolled into trunk ASAP 13:02:23 getting poly'd via wand is a rare enough event that it's going to require a reasonable amount of testing 13:04:01 <|amethyst> what about water and lava? 13:04:52 <|amethyst> from that list, over water you coube become ice beast, bat, butterfly and maybe tree (mangrove); over lava just bat and butterfly 13:05:01 <|amethyst> s/coube/could/ 13:05:15 <|amethyst> (assuming your flight is from equipment and not spells/consumables) 13:05:54 elephant (03Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 51-82 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Dam: 2007(trample), 5 | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 431 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 13:05:54 <|amethyst> %??elephant 13:06:09 <|amethyst> and I guess elephant too in lava, but elephant sounds like a decent form 13:06:17 <|amethyst> s/lava/water/ 13:06:50 |amethyst: i think elephant would be a really fun form, but it may not be appropriate for round 1 13:08:00 water: jellyfish? very squishy, but watermove and pois brand... might be too weak 13:08:29 (also, note that jellies can swim, so you can become a jelly over water. though personally i think this should be removed) 13:08:57 porcupine (02r) | Spd: 12 | HD: 2 | HP: 6-18 | AC/EV: 2/12 08(spiny) | Dam: 7 | Res: 06magic(8) | XP: 32 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 13:08:57 %??porcupine 13:09:34 lava worm (05w) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 22-45 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 1504(fire:6-11) | Res: 06magic(24), 04fire+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 103 | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 13:09:34 %??lava worm 13:09:38 lava fish (05;) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 13-31 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Dam: 1004(fire:4-7) | Res: 06magic(16), 04fire+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 60 | Sz: little | Int: insect. 13:09:38 %??lava fish 13:09:58 well, it is the case that water and lava monsters are boring. we could revamp one of them :) 13:10:05 -!- linsy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:10:13 <|amethyst> My worry about habitat-restricted creatures like this is: what if you're over a 1x1 square of lava? 13:10:22 <|amethyst> when polymorphed 13:10:31 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:10:38 |amethyst: i think that 'in the air' should be its own poly 'habitat' 13:10:38 <|amethyst> now you can't run, but get none of the offsetting benefits of tree form 13:10:56 and the only race that can be in lava without flying is lorcs 13:11:03 <|amethyst> so flying players can't get turned into pigs? 13:11:16 <|amethyst> kirke nerf 13:11:33 |amethyst: when pigs fly 13:11:53 <|amethyst> maybe flying "habitat" when over lava/deep water 13:12:51 |amethyst: what if we check the flying source? if you would lose flying in the target form, and that would lead to you splashing, reroll 13:13:57 What about, and this is just an idea, making poly affect a square and affect both the player/monster in it, and the ground 13:14:07 phyphor: scummable 13:14:25 in what way? 13:14:58 being able to eliminate lava/deep water by going over it in a flying form and getting polied? 13:15:17 one square at a time ... rather than just flying over? 13:15:22 yeah - for example, there could be items in the deep water 13:15:41 <|amethyst> need to cross a lake but can't fly? form a bridge by polymorphing the fish 13:15:48 that too! 13:16:19 though, i do like the idea of polymorph changing terrain in the line of its effect - only cosmetically, though 13:16:34 <|amethyst> or, worse, form yourself a moat by polymorphing monsters until they turn into a water form 13:16:52 and since crawl terrain doesn't have much cosmetic stuff that wouldn't be too interesting to add 13:17:08 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:30 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:13 |amethyst: what about giving lava worms lorc passive heat and heat aura? 13:18:30 useless against lava creatures 13:18:52 <|amethyst> just give all lava monster hellfire 13:18:56 <|amethyst> now they're interesting 13:19:04 heh 13:19:05 ring of flames 13:19:20 it'd be better to give them lava branded attacks, since that's part physical damage 13:19:29 |amethyst: why would forming a bridge be a bad thing vs flying? 13:19:37 isn't that allowing the player to use their abilities? 13:20:24 why do they need a brand for physical damage when they can _hit_ for physical damage 13:20:33 salamander could be a bad form - still use equipment, but lose your bottom half and can't leave lava 13:20:38 <|amethyst> phyphor: because it would be extremely tedious to do, but there might be situations where it's "optimal" 13:21:28 <|amethyst> e.g. making a footpath for your HOPr's orcs 13:21:32 HangedMan: it wouldn't work for melee, yeah - but i think there isn't that much room for pure melee lava critters 13:21:54 certainly we don't need nearly-identical lava worms and lava fish 13:22:07 well yes there's very little reason to keep lava worms if it doesn't ramp up lava snake/salamander spawning 13:22:23 <|amethyst> phyphor: I'd rather just have a "wand of solidification" that "digs" through water/lava than fold that into poly other 13:22:39 HangedMan: what, is that a proposal? 13:23:04 that's marvinpa saying the other day a bunch of pointless monsters would be slaughtered 13:23:08 ooh, i want a list 13:23:19 he did not provide one 13:24:06 i hope that includes half the water creatures 13:25:21 generally i'd rather see stuff revamped than axed, particularly if it's flavorful 13:25:34 but one out of big fish / goldfish has got to go 13:26:15 well you can always re-add stuff if someone figures out how to make it not terrible 13:26:42 sure, but it's easier to do if you never remove it in the first place 13:27:11 (jellyfish: AF_AGONY | AF_POISON!) 13:27:22 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:31 -!- NekoRex has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:27:56 one day someone will let me add a monster with AF_AGONY... 13:29:04 -!- G-Flex has quit [] 13:31:32 would rather see a monster that does a modified torment (maybe 33%?) where you quickly heal half of that tormented hp 13:32:36 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:33:02 wouldn't that just make jellyfish even more annoying 13:33:07 like any melee-only water creature 13:33:24 that was in response to af_agony and not giving it to jellyfish 13:38:29 HangedMan: that actually sounds like it could be a cool way to make pain work more generally... 13:38:48 it's too complicated to convey with just one monster, but it's a really cool mechanic 13:42:15 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:50:56 <|amethyst> hm... my merfolk of fedhas can train evo without items 13:51:40 Grrr... why is this tracer assering that ex_size !> 0 is is_explosion is false in the first place? -.- 13:53:08 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: did you pass true as the third argument to fire_tracer? 13:54:37 Oh dear, it seems I did. Oops? 13:54:53 I seemed to fail to notice that when I was adapting this bit of code 13:54:55 <|amethyst> that'd do it then :) 13:55:07 Thanks 13:56:30 And suddenly this spell becomes a whole lot more functional 13:57:40 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: what are you working on? 13:57:54 pure conjurations spells for a conjurer book revamp 13:57:57 One of a number of new non-elemental conjurations 13:58:49 This one basically fires a persistant energy blade that slices through things for a few turns before dissolving 13:59:20 Performing a short-range beam attack each turn against some random nearby hostile 13:59:26 And moving to the endpoint 14:02:36 DracoOmega: i love you <3 14:03:05 that does sound pretty excellent 14:03:14 crawl needs laser swords 14:03:17 this is important 14:03:26 please make new-IMB more fun while you are at it 14:03:43 New-IMB seems mostly fine to me, really 14:03:56