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00:33:53 <|amethyst> galehar: some of the translations (descript/cs/unrand.txt and descript/ru/monsters.txt) contained zero-width spaces, which make checkwhite complain.  I'm "fixing" them and committing, but I guess the next sync will reintroduce them?
00:38:48 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1228-g28aac5d: Show casting message lookups with DEBUG_MONSPEAK. 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=28aac5d2e5ab
00:38:48 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1229-g12c0473: Add more per-spell keys in casting speech lookup. 10(16 minutes ago, 1 file, 27+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=12c0473af05a
00:38:48 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1230-g46dda22: Give priests a better Heal Other message (#6399). 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=46dda22cdab3
00:38:48 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst 07* 0.12-a0-1231-g734013b: Remove zero-width spaces from translated descriptions. 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=734013bf2c6a
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02:28:12 <galehar> |amethyst: Thanks. I'll push your fix to transifex, so hopefully next sync will be fine
02:28:24 * galehar makes an internal note to run checkwhite after tx sync
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04:28:31 <absolutego> cdo is down, correct?
04:29:44 <DracoOmega> I think it ran out of disk space?
04:31:37 <absolutego> thanks. why do i have such bad ping elsewhere :(
04:32:10 <DracoOmega> That one, I am afraid I cannot answer :)
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05:00:07 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1231-g734013b
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06:35:57 <kilobyte> still no Napkin, hrm
06:40:43 <Napkin> he's here
06:40:50 <Napkin> but busy..
06:40:56 <Napkin> will try to fix in the evening
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06:41:05 <kilobyte> :(
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10:21:23 <mrwooster> have the new vault layouts made it into trunk yet?
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10:26:25 <ColdPie> mrwooster: yes, i think so
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10:41:31 <elliott> mrwooster: yes
10:47:28 <mrwooster> wow... just browsing through the vault level generation code... its pretty impressive
10:52:27 <ColdPie> mrwooster: where does the code live?
10:57:24 <mrwooster> source/dat/des/builder/layout_vaults.des ... and source/dat/des/branches/vaults_rooms.des for the subvaults
11:01:44 <ColdPie> wow, a whole lua api for dungeon generation. neat. i haven't dug into this stuff before
11:02:18 <alefury> wow, a whole undocumented lua api for ...
11:02:26 <ColdPie> :V
11:02:58 <Zaba> layout_vaults.des is also really huge
11:03:30 <mrwooster> yep
11:03:39 <mrwooster> 7k lines i think
11:04:10 <mrwooster> a lot of that is comments and documentation... which is great in itself... its actually quite easy to follow
11:05:22 <alefury> people have complained that there are not enough rooms, and that some of the current rooms are bad
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11:15:46 <Cheibriados> No Pandemonium portal generated (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6417) by elliptic
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11:26:04 <Cheibriados> 03edlothiol 07* 0.12-a0-1232-gdc20878: Webtiles: Fix the full FOV not being shown after using X (#6408). 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dc20878bbe77
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11:31:38 <edlothiol> is there a good reason the -cTele status light is implemented in such a hacky way? i.e. not with a STATUS_ enum, but just added at the end of _get_status_lights?
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11:33:04 <elliptic> that does look hacky, yeah
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11:34:44 <edlothiol> that's why it's currently not appearing in webtiles; I'm contemplating whether to reimplement it properly or repeat the hack
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11:51:29 <Cheibriados> 03edlothiol 07* 0.12-a0-1233-g76a2f64: Reimplement the -cTele status light with a proper STATUS_ enum. 10(4 minutes ago, 3 files, 11+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=76a2f64d8c81
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12:36:04 <Concrocotta> Hello
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13:00:56 <Concrocotta> I have some questions on the LUA stuff, is there a list of functions? API?
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13:11:15 <dpeg_> Concrocotta: there is a list of functions, yes. Did you look through the documentation for vaults?
13:11:49 <Concrocotta> Nope, dunno where that is. I did look around the wiki but I didn't find anything :x
13:14:19 <dpeg_> nothing with wiki
13:14:48 <dpeg_> crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/advanced.txt
13:15:04 <dpeg_> btw, there actually is something on the wiki, too
13:15:52 <dpeg_> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:maps:lua
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13:16:50 <Concrocotta> Oh :x
13:17:38 <dpeg_> always use search on the wiki
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13:19:12 <Concrocotta> hm, that doesn't help either.
13:19:32 <Concrocotta> I'm looking at some autopickup stuff someone wrote, and trying to understand this part:
13:19:38 <Concrocotta> if (item.class(true) == "missile") then
13:20:00 <Concrocotta> wouldn't it be if (item.class("missile") == true) ?
13:20:44 <elliptic> no, item.class(true) returns a string that is the type of the item
13:21:18 <elliptic> the true just makes the string terser or something, I forget
13:21:24 <elliott> and (x == true) is the same as x (for boolean x)
13:23:06 <elliptic> in general this stuff is unfortunately not documented, you have to read the l_something.cc files
13:23:33 <Concrocotta> Ah, that sounds useful, where's that?
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13:25:03 <elliptic> I just mean the source code... see http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=tree;f=crawl-ref/source
13:25:26 <dpeg_> dpeg@dis:~/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source$ ls l_*.cc
13:25:26 <dpeg_> l_colour.cc  l_dgn.cc     l_dgnlvl.cc  l_file.cc    l_los.cc     l_mons.cc      l_travel.cc
13:25:29 <dpeg_> l_crawl.cc   l_dgnevt.cc  l_dgnmon.cc  l_food.cc    l_mapgrd.cc  l_option.cc    l_view.cc
13:25:32 <dpeg_> l_debug.cc   l_dgngrd.cc  l_dgntil.cc  l_global.cc  l_mapmrk.cc  l_spells.cc    l_you.cc
13:25:35 <dpeg_> l_dgnbld.cc  l_dgnit.cc   l_feat.cc    l_item.cc    l_moninf.cc  l_subvault.cc
13:26:16 <Concrocotta> I've never done dev work on any open source stuff... though I probably should one of these days
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13:37:34 <dtsund> Concrocotta: Note that if you're trying to make a seriously Lua-heavy vault, the experience is often unpleasant; the scripting has a tendency to break in nonintuitive ways
13:38:05 <Concrocotta> Well, less trying to do a vault, and more trying to get a better autopickup
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14:54:28 <Cheibriados> Rods which can be evoked to not inform the user of hunger cost (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6418) by mrwooster
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15:48:01 <elliptic> !tell kilobyte I want to display the spell list for single-spell rods (so that players can inspect the spell to display range, hunger, etc) when the rod is examined. This is just a matter of changing the "> 1" in item_def::has_spells() to "> 0".
15:48:01 <Henzell> elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
15:48:44 <elliott> what multi-spell rods are there left?
15:48:53 <elliptic> !tell kilobyte This works well for everything except lightning rod, where the rod description is too long for everything to fit in one screen and Thunderbolt has no description... what do you want to do about this?
15:48:53 <Henzell> elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
15:49:25 <elliptic> elliott: destruction, destruction, destruction, venom, warding, demonology
15:49:35 <|amethyst> only two destructions I thought
15:49:46 <elliptic> no, there are still three
15:49:59 <elliptic> though I'd like to remove the iron shot/lightning bolt/fireball one at some point
15:50:07 <mrwooster> guessing you are tallking about the bug i just raised :)
15:50:34 <|amethyst> hm... how difficult would it be to make descriptions scrollable
15:50:49 <elliptic> mrwooster: yeah, I assume the rod you were looking at was one of the other ones? (lightning, swarm, inaccuracy, striking)
15:50:59 <mrwooster> rod of destruction
15:51:06 <mrwooster> it has multiple spells
15:51:25 <ChrisOelmueller> it even has multiple rods
15:51:28 <elliptic> mrwooster: well, you can press the letter of the spell to get information about hunger then
15:51:50 <elliptic> but this is a problem for the other rods
15:51:53 <mrwooster> ah
15:51:55 <elliott> clearly make rod of venom be pcloud
15:51:56 <mrwooster> indeed
15:51:56 <|amethyst> it would be nice to be able to do - like on the spell screen
15:52:15 <elliott> rod of warding be um... I give up
15:52:21 <elliptic> the current weird thing with single-spell rods not displaying a spell list is >5 years old btw
15:52:25 <|amethyst> rod of not existing
15:52:42 <|amethyst> rod of mass abjuration?
15:52:43 <mrwooster> ok.. so the bug just applies to single spell rods
15:52:50 <elliott> rod of mass abjuration sounds sort of cool
15:52:55 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: hm that would be quite powerful
15:52:59 <elliptic> %git e46965c1
15:53:00 <Cheibriados> 03greensnark * re46965c192b6: Allow describing rod/spellbook spells from the examine command (jarpiain). 10(6 years ago, 4 files, 75+ 22-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e46965c192b6
15:53:11 <elliott> demonology could just be summon demon I guess?
15:53:11 <|amethyst> I'd consider the situation with multi-spell rods to be buggish, too
15:53:24 <ChrisOelmueller> should be some special summon demon
15:53:42 <elliptic> |amethyst: you mean, they should all be single-spell? or something else?
15:54:07 <|amethyst> elliptic: mainly that it should be possible to see descriptions from the v screen
15:54:09 <elliptic> demonology should be changed into a special summon demon of some sort, yeah
15:54:28 <elliptic> |amethyst: ah, right, that
15:54:49 <elliott> maybe I should write a rod patch
15:54:58 <elliott> rods are cool but their current state is lame :(
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15:55:16 <Eronarn> having a better concept for rods would be good
15:55:27 <elliptic> another idea: combine rod of freezing cloud and rod of poisonous cloud into a single "rod of clouds", and make it create a random cloud
15:55:58 <Eronarn> are they megawands, D&D style rods, or magic guns
15:56:16 <elliott> elliptic: make it generate chaos clouds instead
15:56:16 <|amethyst> call it "rod of evaporation"
15:56:21 <ChrisOelmueller> hah
15:56:47 <elliott> not sure I like rod of clouds, does it really add any differentiation beyond just making it generate one or the other?
15:56:55 <elliott> except fclouding yourself trying to get lucky
15:57:41 <|amethyst> rod of flame cloud
15:58:26 * elliott would like it if the spells of every rod were unique to that rod, too
15:58:31 <elliptic> elliott: it makes the rod weaker (good since the cloud rods are incredibly strong) and it would be generating more than two types of clouds
15:58:32 <elliott> so rod of flame cloud sounds sort of cool :p
15:58:39 <elliptic> so not just one or the other
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15:58:51 <elliott> elliptic: oh, I see, it'd decide randomly on each square
15:58:52 <elliott> not on each cast?
15:58:56 <elliptic> no, on each cast
15:59:06 <elliott> what do you mean by more than two types of cloud?
15:59:09 <elliott> oh
15:59:12 <elliptic> not just poisonous/freezing
15:59:12 <elliott> it'd just generate a completely random cloud?
15:59:16 <elliott> that sounds cool then
15:59:28 <|amethyst> I don't know about chaos clouds
15:59:29 <elliott> excluding mutagenic, I assume
15:59:33 <elliott> and probably chaos
15:59:36 <elliptic> also flame and meph could be options at least
15:59:43 <elliptic> not sure about others
16:00:03 <elliott> practically free mutagenic clouds sounds kind of bad, though I guess it's weighted to be unusable for anything scummy
16:00:17 <elliptic> it's scummable with allies
16:00:19 <|amethyst> large miasma cloud :)
16:00:36 <|amethyst> large petrify cloud
16:00:40 <elliott> is it weighted to prefer reducing HD for allies :)
16:01:01 <elliptic> miasma/petrify with a small chance maybe...
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16:01:34 <elliott> I don't really like the destruction rods in general, they are a bit boring
16:01:37 <elliptic> the main point is that it would be different from the spells and that there would be only one cloud rod
16:01:56 <elliptic> multi-spell destruction rods would work better with rod spell failure chances
16:05:17 <mrwooster> there doesnt seem to be a huge difference between rods and wands... apart from rods auto recharge
16:05:25 <elliott> maybe if they got really unique conjurations
16:05:41 <elliott> mrwooster: wielding
16:10:57 <mrwooster> ye, but imo that doesnt make them that different from wants as far as gameplay goes
16:13:04 <ghallberg> vad ċt han nu?
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17:11:40 <Cheibriados> Monsters who are confused and asleep still move around (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6419) by mrwooster
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17:14:32 <kilobyte> Napkin: still no luck getting a bit of time?
17:14:32 <Henzell> kilobyte: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
17:14:56 <kilobyte> I'd think moving some stuff aside to clear ENOSPC should be enough in the short term
17:15:34 <Napkin> no.. busy day at work, swimming pool with family, a game of spring (which just ended) and now bed - getting up at 5:30
17:15:55 <Napkin> all i could move aside would be ttyrecs
17:16:09 <Napkin> and there is only /var left with space
17:16:33 <Napkin> i'm rather thinking of mounting /srv from the new server via nfs4 tomorrow when i'm at work
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17:18:02 <mrwooster> what about offloading the ttyrecs onto AWS S3 or something similar?  would cost pennies
17:18:25 <kilobyte> I'm not sure we really need all ttyrecs, but that's a longer story
17:18:34 <faze> but footv..
17:20:13 <kilobyte> just so we have a general idea: what's the rough size of all ttyrecs?
17:20:39 <kilobyte> (the order of magnitude would be enough)
17:21:14 <Napkin> 100gb were moved from former cdo server to darshan's server, now around 160gb on current cdo server, i think
17:21:38 <Napkin> (everything bzipped)
17:21:43 <kilobyte> cool, so it's nothing world shattering
17:22:08 <faze> cdo accounts for roughly 1/3rd of all games in sequell
17:22:10 <Napkin> it's not, if it would be local.. but diskspace on servers was expensive
17:22:23 <kilobyte> ah right...
17:22:40 <Napkin> new server has 3tb mirror instead of 1.5tb
17:22:46 <Napkin> so there is more room now
17:22:59 <Napkin> there *will* be more space
17:23:02 <Napkin> g'night!
17:23:03 <Napkin> o/
17:23:05 <kilobyte> bie!
17:24:51 <kilobyte> I did some tests: while for most file types xz >>> bzip2, on ttyrecs it's not massively better, at least for unmolested ttyrecs
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17:27:03 <kilobyte> unpacking them into independent frames (where every frame is an array of characters/attributes) and only then using xz seems to work better
17:27:33 <greensnark> Napkin: I can rescue more ttyrecs if you like
17:27:54 <greensnark> I have the mirrored 3TB drives
17:28:39 <kilobyte> I guess he's climbing the bed as we speak
17:29:00 <|amethyst> greensnark:  I might want to talk to you about that in about a year :)
17:29:10 <greensnark> :)
17:29:16 <greensnark> We need cheap storage
17:29:25 <greensnark> Doesn't amazon have some tape-backed storage
17:29:28 <greensnark> That sounds perfect for ttyrecs
17:29:29 <|amethyst> or maybe I'll rent more disk by then
17:29:36 <elliott> tape, so ttyrecs download in real time!
17:29:46 <elliott> and have that good old fashioned analogue feel
17:29:59 <greensnark> Spooools of tape
17:30:00 <|amethyst> doesn't tape usually mean a delay of several minutes?
17:30:03 <mrwooster> amazon has some really cheap storage options
17:30:12 <greensnark> I don't know the actual delay, but I've always wanted to use tape
17:30:19 <greensnark> (again)
17:30:19 <kilobyte> footv tends to have a delay of like 10 seconds :p
17:30:20 <|amethyst> since I assume they're in a library and not sitting in the drives :)
17:31:05 <mrwooster> S3 would be approx $15 per month for 160GB
17:33:23 <|amethyst> that's not all that cheap
17:33:49 <|amethyst> I pay $100/month for 500 GB and that comes with a beefy server :)
17:34:34 <|amethyst> from what I've seen, Amazon is in general not cheap if your needs are sustained
17:34:43 <|amethyst> I haven't looked at their tape stuff, though
17:34:56 <mrwooster> you mean glacier?
17:35:07 <mrwooster> ... its 1c per GB per month
17:35:10 <|amethyst> I dunno, I haven't looked at it :)
17:35:18 <mrwooster> but takes a while to access the data
17:35:26 <|amethyst> how long is "a while"?
17:36:10 <mrwooster> "several hours"
17:36:27 <|amethyst> that works for backups, then, but not really ttyrecs
17:36:33 <elliott> well ttyrecs you have to spend several hours to access are kind of useless
17:36:41 <mrwooster> so basically its just for data which you dont want to delete but never really use
17:36:55 <mrwooster> ye.. not suggesting its suitable for ttyrecs
17:37:06 <|amethyst> that said, 99% of ttyrecs are never accessed
17:38:56 <|amethyst> that's a guess, but I imagine that's a liberal rather than conservative guess
17:39:18 <|amethyst> err, liberal in terms of the percentage that are accessed
17:39:34 <|amethyst> I don't feel like grepping my apache logs right now
17:40:40 <kilobyte> but... but... we don't want to lose our precious collection of Sebi!
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17:41:31 <kilobyte> although these logs probably don't take much
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17:41:45 <greensnark> Yeah, Sebi has lots of ttyrecs but they're all tiny
17:41:55 <|amethyst> my precious inodes!
17:42:00 <greensnark> :)
17:42:16 <greensnark> Those apocalypserobin-style ttyrecs are more unhealthy
17:42:29 <greensnark> Although I imagine they compress decently?
17:42:35 <Wensley> haha
17:43:10 <kilobyte> hrm, I don't understand what's the deal with disk prices.  2 years ago, I took the first piece of spinning rust from a shelf, 1TB for $50.  Now it's like twice as pricey.
17:43:32 <kilobyte> (I never look at hardware prices in general, so paint me an uneducated idiot here)
17:44:18 <kilobyte> speaking of raw hardware, before RAIDing or electricity costs, of course
17:44:21 <Wensley> kilobyte: floods in east asia where the hdds are produced
17:44:28 <Wensley> massive spike in hdd prices
17:44:29 <|amethyst> http://www.extremetech.com/computing/129874-hdd-pricewatch-higher-prices-are-the-new-normal
17:44:55 <|amethyst> nice caption
17:45:00 <|amethyst> "Price (Lower is Cheaper)"
17:45:14 <mrwooster> also, people want to store everything in the cloud now
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17:45:43 <greensnark> Cloud stuff comes with the advantage of backups, presumably
17:46:02 <|amethyst> I would never presume anything like that
17:46:13 <greensnark> Well, for S3 it does
17:46:20 <greensnark> As in you don't lose data
17:46:25 <greensnark> With a pretty good guarantee
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17:47:06 <greensnark> Too bloody expensive though
17:47:14 <greensnark> For ttyrecs :P
17:47:40 <|amethyst> I thought Amazon's guarantee was "we'll give you free credit if things break"
17:48:08 <greensnark> Oh, I don't know what their SLA says
17:48:23 <Wensley> greensnark: well they recently reduced their S3 price by 25%, maybe it is cheap enough now
17:49:11 <greensnark> Their SLA talks about uptime promises, I don't see where they talk about durability
17:50:07 <|amethyst> http://aws.amazon.com/agreement/ says "ou are responsible for properly configuring and using the Service Offerings and taking your own steps to maintain appropriate security, protection and backup of Your Content"
17:50:14 <|amethyst> s/"/"Y/
17:50:21 <greensnark> Well, backup is different from durability
17:50:31 <greensnark> Ttyrecs are write-only, so backups per se are less imortant
17:50:46 <greensnark> They do mention 99.9<ridiculous>% durability guarantee
17:50:57 <greensnark> Er, ttyrecs are write-once-only
17:51:18 <greensnark> They claim high durability but I don't know if anyone has verified that
17:51:26 <greensnark> THey definitely make no promises about it in their SLA
17:51:57 <greensnark> I wouldn't worry about it for ttyrecs, but still too pricey per GB
17:52:21 <kilobyte> from what I've seen, the need for backups is 80% or 90% due to human error, rather than hardware failure
17:52:22 <|amethyst> no doubt having something in S3 only is better than having it on a single RAID 1 only
17:53:47 <mrwooster> S3 is bucket storage... so you can only write a file once... you cant then edit it... if you want to edit the file, you have to basically re-upload a new file
17:54:07 <mrwooster> so its only good for files that never change (or can be re-uploaded on change)
17:56:07 <kilobyte> even RAID1 is overkill for ttyrecs.  It'd be enough to rsync them to some cheap disk at home.
17:57:03 <mrwooster> if you want to back them up, then amazon glacier is a good option... 200GB would cost approx $2 per month
17:57:26 * kilobyte is sitting on ~4TB of disks just from grabbing recent scraps no one else wanted.  Two 1TB ones, a bunch of smaller.
17:58:30 <|amethyst> I was going to say something about bandwidth charges, but I guess ~15 GiB a month isn't too much compared to all the student pirates
17:58:46 <kilobyte> "scraps" like a new disk that physically didn't fit into a server being assembled.
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18:04:03 <|amethyst> btw, the second-biggest user of space on CSZO (after ttyrecs) is the binaries
18:04:21 <|amethyst> maybe at some point I'll force-transfer a bunch of people
18:04:36 <kilobyte> Nap King does that monthly or so
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18:11:18 <kilobyte> all of apocalypserobin takes 14MB
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18:28:14 <kilobyte> converting that from bzip2 to xz, even at -9e, goes only from 14628 to 12832 blocks
18:28:40 <evilmike> elliptic: just gonna say i really like that rod of clouds idea
18:29:31 <evilmike> elliptic: i would say, make stuff like freezing, poison, flame, etc equally common. i dunno about meph since it's non-damaging. stuff like miasma and confusion would be fun but they should be very rare. i see nothing wrong with including them though
18:29:40 <evilmike> elliptic: sorry, meant chaos, not confusion
18:29:42 <kilobyte> (IIRC xz -6 after converting ttyrecs from vt100 codes to full screenshots every frame takes roughly half the space)
18:30:11 <elliptic> evilmike: yeah, I'm not sure about meph either... it also checks the same resist as poison
18:30:32 <evilmike> flame would be fun though, since that's not an effect you can get easily
18:31:05 <kilobyte> repeatedly zapping it to get the cloud you want seems somewhat silly
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18:31:16 <evilmike> oops, mistyped
18:31:28 <evilmike> i dont think the "repeated zapping" is an issue, because this is a rod
18:31:34 <elliptic> kilobyte: well, it isn't like you can repeatedly zap it unless a monster is already there
18:31:40 <elliptic> and then the cloud blocks making a new one
18:31:41 <evilmike> and unlike spells, you're not really able to recover rod mp at will
18:32:09 <evilmike> i think rods allow you to get away with spells that wouldnt work normally... there is a forced cooldown, basically
18:32:26 <elliptic> some stuff could be kited for a while though, until you get a cloud type that damages it
18:32:45 <kilobyte> elliptic: I mean, in places like Elf you don't care if it's freezing, poison or flame; against vulnerable enemies you'd zap and run until you have an incentive to keep the monster in the cloud
18:33:47 <evilmike> it might be somewhat bad against undead and demons, if poison is common
18:33:57 <evilmike> i wouldnt worry much about cold/flame though... even resistant enemies take damage
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18:34:12 <evilmike> of course some stuff is immune, but that isn't too common
18:34:15 <kilobyte> evilmike: ie, you'd simply walk backwards then retry
18:34:24 <evilmike> yeah, but you're still damaging the enemy
18:34:32 <evilmike> so it's not like you wasted a shot
18:34:43 <kilobyte> I mean, if you get poison against most late-game enemies
18:35:02 <evilmike> ah. well, that could be a reason to give poison a lower weight
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18:35:31 <clouded_> kiting those sorts of things usually isn't a good idea, clouds aren't going to be hugely useful either
18:35:44 <kilobyte> I'd just let the player choose, it's not like the difference between single-spell and multi-spell rods is that big
18:35:53 <kilobyte> the rod would be really powerful, though
18:36:14 <kilobyte> we might make the cloud's size vary _drastically_ based on power
18:36:19 <evilmike> i prefer random myself... the desc should list the different cloud types you can get though
18:36:52 <evilmike> i also like the single-keypress rods more than the ones that make you pick from a list, but that issue is just me quibbling about the interface, so dont take it too seriously
18:37:28 <kilobyte> ^D
18:37:29 <elliptic> another possibility is to change this from the poisonous/freezing floodfill cloud to the mephitic 3x3 cloud (with some squares missing)
18:37:37 <elliptic> if we want to make it weaker (which we should)
18:38:40 <elliott> kilobyte: the idea of making the clouds all in one rod spell is to make it less powerful, not more, isn't it?
18:39:00 <evilmike> elliptic: I like the flood fill, personally. if it's too strong on the rod, just make the spell a higher level, imo
18:39:14 <evilmike> so you can only cast it once or twice (for highly enchanted rods) before waiting
18:39:31 <evilmike> 3x3 is more balanced for sure, but there is something fun about gassing an entire corridor
18:40:02 <|amethyst> you could make it drain the entire charge, giving you something like N*2 squares
18:40:11 <evilmike> that's interesting
18:40:16 <|amethyst> but then I guess you wouldn't have much for power to determine
18:40:41 <elliptic> power just determining duration is fine
18:40:51 <kilobyte> elliott: yeah, but it'd reward scumming, which is bad.  So I'd use some other way of nerfing it.
18:41:25 <|amethyst> didn't someone suggest making it a patchwork cloud?
18:41:32 <evilmike> the rod could attempt to pick a cloud that the target(s) aren't immune to...
18:41:41 <evilmike> it would still be random, but fudged a little
18:41:55 <elliott> I don't think it's that easy to scum... you can't kite enemies forever and it's always at least a little dangerous to do so unless nothing poses a threat in the first pace
18:42:01 <evilmike> it should only check for immunities though,n ot resistances
18:42:03 <clouded_> should we change wands of random effects and tomes of destruction too
18:42:24 <|amethyst> I think a lot of people want tome of destruction changed
18:42:28 <evilmike> no. i'm not really in favour of this. i like the idea of a totally random rod
18:42:36 <elliptic> |amethyst: to be non-random? I haven't heard that at all...
18:42:43 <elliott> wands of random effects are at least scummable in an actually relevant way
18:42:48 <evilmike> i just think if we want to make it more "useful", it would be better to fudge it a bit rather than give the player the whole list to choose from
18:42:49 <elliott> this rod seems much more similar to tome of destruction, yeah
18:42:51 <kilobyte> tomes are silly, especially because of confusing people wrt Trog
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18:43:21 <|amethyst> oh, it wasn't a suggestion, it was elliott's misunderstanding
18:43:22 <elliptic> tomes are silly but making them give you your choice of destructive effects would not make them better-designed IMO
18:46:38 <kilobyte> they can be pretty cool when you're your only tool (ie, on kittehs with no spells or with no relevant spells), but the chance of randomly disappearing stops the fun.  No one else really uses tomes, from what I've seen.
18:47:11 <kilobyte> in a good part because of the randomness; I'd keep them purely random but not use that elsewhere
18:47:54 <evilmike> what makes them hard to use is the whole issue of dumping clouds on you, imo
18:48:12 <evilmike> getting some rare effects from them (ranged sticky flame!) can be fun though
18:48:20 <evilmike> btw, ranged sticky flame is probably another potential rod spell
18:48:36 <elliott> crate uses them in zigsprint I think :p
18:49:11 <elliptic> kilobyte: about the rod-scumming thing... I think this is an intrinsic issue with attack rods even without randomization, since the only (reasonable) way to regain MP in them is to wait
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18:50:10 <kilobyte> you can typically do that at no cost, as most monsters have speed 10
18:50:37 <elliptic> so worrying about that specifically for this rod doesn't bother me that much... if you can run around for 50 turns or whatever for this rod, then you can do it without the randomization too, and you might still need to if the monster is a threat
18:50:44 <evilmike> the thing is, if its a combat spell, you at least pissed off some enemy, so you hopefully can't wait in place. if you make rods noisy you can make things even harder (hopefully)
18:51:18 <elliptic> also, btw, randomization works very well in makhleb's attack invocations IMO
18:52:18 <evilmike> and the summon ones, I think
18:52:53 <kilobyte> these cost piety which is far from free
18:52:53 <ontoclasm> clearly rods should recharge on exp
18:53:09 <evilmike> one example of bad randomization is the Summon Demon (the spell), since you probably want a sun demon or something, and not a hellwing
18:53:17 <elliptic> kilobyte: not minor destruction
18:53:41 <elliott> summons are a lot easier to pre-scum, of course
18:55:23 <kilobyte> minor destruction is, well, minor
18:55:38 <ChrisOelmueller> it can get you through lair pretty comfortably if you want it to
18:55:49 <elliptic> ontoclasm: recharging on exp is worth considering maybe
18:56:03 <kilobyte> yeah, it lasts as long as throw flame
18:56:06 <elliptic> or recharging on *something*
18:56:17 <evilmike> exp sounds like it might be cool
18:56:33 <evilmike> especially with attack rods, you could chain attacks with them or something
18:56:35 <ontoclasm> xD i was joking but go ahead
18:56:54 <ChrisOelmueller> butcher deep dwarf corpses to recharge rods
18:57:04 <elliott> that would make the thing where you can use striking multiple times in a row at no extra delay cool
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18:59:25 <elliptic> for the record, I'd still sort of prefer to just remove all rods and move the 2.5 cool effects elsewhere (misc items, monsters, etc)
19:00:04 <HangedMan> misc items themselves are hardly much better...
19:00:04 <Henzell> HangedMan: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
19:00:07 <evilmike> i like rods because they give us a chance to give the player spells which wouldn't work as "real" spells
19:00:07 <HangedMan> what
19:00:17 <evilmike> misc items can fill this same role too, probably
19:00:31 <evilmike> but in any case, I very much think we should take advantage of this fact
19:01:07 <HangedMan> lamp of fire and bottled efreet are pretty meh
19:01:25 <evilmike> yes, everyone knows that most misc items are medicore right now :P
19:01:51 <kilobyte> need to slip in quad damage again somehow :p
19:01:56 <elliott> make disc of storms and box of beasts the only misc items
19:02:12 <HangedMan> make it so that they have the same unknown base-type
19:02:13 <kilobyte> box of beasts is meh too
19:02:18 <evilmike> kilobyte: i think it could work as a xom effect, really
19:02:25 <evilmike> as an evokable its probably best to keep it as a sprint thing
19:02:26 <elliott> box of beasts is endearing because of how terrible it is
19:02:37 <alefury> kilobyte: just call it incredinabulum or something else that sounds magical and stupid
19:02:40 <elliott> +10000 to rare high-tension xom quad damage effect
19:02:42 <alefury> all theme issues resolved instantly
19:02:44 <evilmike> my idea for box of beasts is to literally make it a box of beasts
19:02:53 <evilmike> as in, you get to pretend you're geryon for a while
19:03:14 <alefury> what, 3 heads? :)
19:03:27 <Cheibriados> Gastronok's hat description is too long and cuts off the bottom of the menu when viewing it (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6420) by mrwooster
19:03:27 <HangedMan> but what would one do with friendly sky beasts
19:03:52 <elliott> you evoke the box of beasts and get moved to the portal Box of Beasts which contains lots of beasts and you start with some friendly beasts
19:04:07 <elliott> and then when you kill all the hostile ones you get to keep the friendly ones that are left!
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19:04:37 <monqy> kill the friendly beasts and keep a hostile rat around so you can rest
19:05:16 <elliott> monqy: see? multi-purpose item
19:06:36 <ontoclasm> Pocket Dimension
19:06:58 <|amethyst> Remove the Passwall spell and replace it with a portable hole
19:07:11 <ontoclasm> it's a portable portal vault, so it doubles as a portal and an escape item
19:07:35 <ontoclasm> but it's nasty so you have to weigh using it against the difficulty of surviving it
19:08:06 <alefury> i feel this role is already filled by disto unwield
19:08:11 <|amethyst> I thought we called that "distortion unwield"
19:08:17 <|amethyst> what alefury said
19:08:23 <alefury> thats very spoilery though, so could be done better
19:08:31 <HangedMan> pocket portal to a special square of abyss you can stash stuff in and freely exit but the more things you put on the square the higher the chance it all just blows around the abyss instead
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19:09:11 <ontoclasm> also if you put in a wand of cancellation
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19:09:16 <ontoclasm> you're i trouble
19:10:19 <elliott> pocket dimension where it fully heals you but you have a 1/10 chance to die
19:10:19 <HangedMan> that's why you use more pocket portals to put your stash deeper into the abyss
19:10:38 <elliott> fr: deathspell from tsl. I'm sure elliptic agrees
19:10:51 <elliott> rod of deathspell?
19:10:53 <elliptic> (no)
19:11:13 <elliptic> (can it be used with ddoor?)
19:11:35 <elliott> (yes)
19:11:42 <elliott> "you leave the door ajar"
19:13:36 <Cheibriados> Implementable: Make item/spell/etc. descriptions scrollable. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6421) by neil
19:15:01 <ChrisOelmueller> blasphemy
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19:17:15 <kilobyte> scrollable descs?  Hell yeah, let's use that to get rid of !
19:17:33 <kilobyte> especially on non-crippled-terms
19:17:40 <|amethyst> that was my other thought
19:18:05 <|amethyst> well, especially on webtiles
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19:18:21 <|amethyst> I play bigterm too, but that's nowhere near as popular
19:18:41 * elliott would prefer not to get rid of ! since I don't like most of the quotes and they're irrelevant, which bumps useful item info down
19:19:00 <|amethyst> they could be put at the bottom
19:19:10 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:19:14 <|amethyst> s/could/should/
19:19:31 <|amethyst> Since they're usually the least-relevant information on the screen
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19:24:48 <kilobyte> could be drawn in a different font, too
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19:26:13 <evilmike> if bringing in different fonts is on the table, i'd also suggest using actual underlines instead of the gaudy _underline_ style it used now
19:26:15 <evilmike> uses*
19:26:53 <|amethyst> Ideally italics
19:27:07 <kilobyte> almost any terminals support underline, but it'd be bad for quotes
19:27:19 <kilobyte> hardly anything has italics though
19:27:22 <|amethyst> for citations, I think evilmike meant
19:27:32 <kilobyte> (tiles and webtiles do, of course)
19:27:33 <evilmike> yeah
19:27:53 <kilobyte> evilmike: the problem is, they don't support any attributes currently
19:28:20 <|amethyst> could use regexps and hope that _ and * are uncommon in other places
19:28:27 <kilobyte> it'd be good to have colour, at least in help files and such
19:28:30 <|amethyst> at runtime I mean
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19:47:22 <ens> i missed the hosting talk, but depending on if hosting in germany is an option. i've had a systems with hetzner the last 6 years without any issues.
19:47:27 <ens> http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex4
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19:49:46 <bh> has anyone looked at my wrath patch?
19:50:17 <bh> I suspect it may not entirely handle annoying your god without getting excommunicated
19:50:58 <kilobyte> ens: you mean, talking of hosting with respect to CDO?
19:51:11 <ens> yeah.
19:52:01 <kilobyte> care to mtr/traceroute/whois it? :p
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19:55:26 <ens> oh right, same provider anyway.
19:55:29 <ens> good taste ;)
19:58:58 <kilobyte> hrm, I installed a bunch of terminals, testing \e[3m support (pretty rare but not non-existant), and only then looked at ncurses
19:59:08 <kilobyte> it doesn't provide a way to request italics :(
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20:00:16 <kilobyte> bh: I'm still way behind even on fixing recent bugs I created :(
20:00:27 <kilobyte> 3am here, too
20:00:51 <bh> why don't you just roll back your commits and deal with it at a sensible hour?
20:01:47 <kilobyte> too much to revert, like the Vaults:8 bug caused by a commit that fixes a number of other stuff
20:02:15 <kilobyte> or the tornado crash, which needs some actual thinking
20:02:40 <kilobyte> perhaps you or |amethyst could provide some insight
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20:03:11 <kilobyte> it did worked in the past except for rotating people through walls
20:04:04 <kilobyte> Grunt added a requirement that there must be an open straight line between the place a monster was at the beginning of the turn, and the place it's going to end up
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20:05:13 <kilobyte> this turns out to be wrong, not just because of crashing: it works differently for a hasted spriggan than a slowed naga of chei
20:05:16 <kilobyte> beh
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20:08:00 <bh> ??runelock
20:08:00 <Wenzell> I don't have a page labeled runelock in my learndb.
20:08:09 <kilobyte> bh: wget -O- http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/%23%23crawl-dev-20121129.log|tail
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20:09:36 <bh> kilobyte: osx only ships with curl, but I get the idea
20:09:44 <kilobyte> :)
20:10:12 * bh builds a debian vm
20:10:54 <kilobyte> a naive solution would be using a complement of all valid moves, ie, any connected parts that don't go through grates/trees
20:10:56 <bh> kilobyte: consistent behavior is less important than making it not crash, right? :)
20:11:08 <kilobyte> this would work at least without crashing
20:11:17 <kilobyte> yeah
20:11:48 <bh> I've never actually looked at the tornado code and just reimaged my laptop, so it'll be a while before I'm up and running
20:12:26 <kilobyte> expect it'd still move folks "through walls", for example in an open room with nothing but a wall going northwards from your position
20:12:35 <kilobyte> ah, ok
20:13:12 <bh> if I were implementing tornado, for each tick, for each actor I'd designate a vector, then shuffle the actors and do moves
20:14:21 <kilobyte> how would you ensure there's no "moving through walls"?
20:14:39 <ontoclasm> kilobyte: why not use the walk code
20:14:44 <bh> require that everyone move no more than one square per tick
20:15:04 <ontoclasm> like, rather than being teleported, tornado basically forces you to take steps
20:15:10 <bh> ontoclasm: does tornado do something *awesome* near lava?
20:15:31 <ontoclasm> it... lets you fly over lava! if you are kind of crazy
20:15:44 <ens> knock mobs into lava?
20:15:58 <HangedMan> very important for killing ereshkigal, antaeus, dispater
20:16:16 <kilobyte> another case: http://sprunge.us/AVRR, with a crowd: that'd create queues in the choke points
20:16:37 <kilobyte> ontoclasm: hasted spriggan vs slowed naga
20:16:59 <ens> have tornado move the walls too!
20:17:00 <kilobyte> ontoclasm: turns can have pretty varying durations
20:17:37 <kilobyte> HangedMan: I scummed it with ereshkigal for a long, long time
20:17:50 <bh> kilobyte: run it by ticks rather than turns. That's what disjunction does
20:18:33 <kilobyte> HangedMan: after first taking pains to lure her out, she landed on the ground every time.  Then finally died to Tornado's damage.
20:19:00 <elliott> problem with scumming special ways to kill eresh is that you accidentally kill her first
20:19:04 <elliott> i should know
20:19:17 <HangedMan> did you get the griddy lava vestibule instead of the lava river vestibule
20:19:26 <HangedMan> much easier with the latter
20:20:06 <bh> if I wouldn't be stepping on toes, I'd be happy to make tornado turn-length independent
20:20:35 <kilobyte> it currently is, except for the crash regression
20:21:03 <elliott> running it every tick seems better in general since you avoid issues like this inherently, but I don't know how hard/slow that would be or anything
20:21:43 <kilobyte> it calculates an angle the monster should rotate, and picks the "best" place, ie one that's closest to the chosen angle and distance
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20:23:12 <bh> kilobyte: That will invariably cause aliasing (not that it matters here) better to pick it stoachastically
20:23:13 <DracoOmega> Could it do something like firing a tracer from the old location to the new one, to see if there's a more or less straight way to get from A to B? Or am I missing something?
20:24:09 <kilobyte> DracoOmega: that's Grunt's change, which is wrong for two reason: 1. breaks permutations, 2. breaks rotating around a pillar
20:24:52 <DracoOmega> Breaks them how? Or is there not a simple explanation for that?
20:25:02 <bh> kilobyte: can you link me to his commit?
20:25:33 <kilobyte> DracoOmega: if there are actors all around you, you need to permute them
20:26:15 <DracoOmega> Oh, does it prevent monsters from being moving into where other monsters WERE (but which will also be moved at the same time?)
20:26:26 <bh> kilobyte: to prevent a bias?
20:26:33 <kilobyte> 6f473416
20:27:41 <DracoOmega> If so, could it essentially 'pop' all monsters affected by tornado from the map at the start of the movement calculation, and then dump them back one by one? Or is that not the cause of the problem with them not shuffling?
20:27:55 <kilobyte> DracoOmega: it's not that.  The existing algorithm calculates the set of available places (ie, where the wind blows and which don't contain an actor who's nailed down), picks them all up, rotates then puts back in place.
20:28:15 <kilobyte> yeah, it does pop them
20:28:56 <kilobyte> except, that commit vetoes moves that are not in LOS from start to end (during the whole turn)
20:29:15 <DracoOmega> Oh, I didn't mean check if they were in YOUR los
20:29:27 <DracoOmega> Just that there is a straight path from A to B
20:29:39 <kilobyte> yes, that's what Grunt does
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20:29:53 <kilobyte> it breaks if there's a pillar inside
20:30:47 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  the issue is when a "turn" is long (as kilobyte said before, a slowed Naga of Chei)
20:30:49 <DracoOmega> If there's a pillar in the way does it just not move them at all?
20:31:02 <DracoOmega> Maybe I should stop speculating without reading the code, perhaps :P
20:31:10 <bh> Should the direction that a tornado spins be randomly determined when you cast it? :)
20:31:31 <|amethyst> it should geolocate you
20:31:37 <|amethyst> decide based on your hemisphere
20:32:48 <kilobyte> imagine three available spots, A B C, all taken.  A is visible from B, B from C, but A and C are separated by a pillar.  The monster from A moves to B, the one from B to C, then the one from C has nowhere to go.
20:34:21 <bh> so it goes 'awww snap, can't place a monster' followed by kerplunk.
20:35:02 <kilobyte> bh: this has been discussed :p  The consensus was that since on Earth 97% of tornadoes spin the same way, we can stick with that direction and handwave the world being possibly not Earth.  It's already a tornado underground :p
20:35:22 <kilobyte> yeah
20:35:42 <ens> but it's unrealistic if you don't accurately model the coriolis effect ;)
20:36:01 <ens> the coriolis effect of a magical whirlwind in a fantasy world.
20:36:10 <kilobyte> obviously, as long as available moves are transitive, all is fine
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20:36:26 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  if you did C first you could make them just pile up
20:36:42 <|amethyst> as it is you have to move someone because their spot may have been taken
20:36:55 <|amethyst> if you could reverse topologically sort them...
20:37:28 <kilobyte> |amethyst: right, but this doesn't solve problem 2, it working differently based on turn lengths
20:37:39 <|amethyst> do it one step at a time
20:37:41 <bh> |amethyst: it isn't acyclic
20:37:53 <bh> |amethyst: yeah. one step at a time is the 'right thing'
20:37:56 <|amethyst> bh:  if it's cyclic the permutation is easy
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20:38:20 <kilobyte> it'd fail to move in an U-shaped room
20:38:20 <bh> |amethyst: rotating monsters in crawl: It's genome assembly, essentially.
20:38:57 <kilobyte> since monsters on the left side would reach the wall and be unable to tunnel through
20:39:13 <ens> de brujin hyperwalk over the graph space of rooms represented as a convex-hulled polytope of linear equations representing wall constraints.
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20:39:19 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  they'd all pile up on that side
20:39:58 <bh> ens: I took a grad class on planar graphs and I only grok half of those terms.
20:40:56 <kilobyte> which belies the fact that tornado can blow in such a room (the U has thickness at least 2)
20:41:14 <ens> hrm, yeah, the first part is related to genome sequencing, the second part is representing constraints of computer programs of real-time systems. so basically, it's a bit b.s. :D
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20:41:55 <bh> ens: you've probably seen this: pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/
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20:42:08 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  the wind magically goes through walls, I dunno
20:42:36 <kilobyte> |amethyst: it doesn't, Tornado requires the area to be biconnected
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20:43:06 <bh> does tornado check mass?
20:43:08 <ontoclasm> obviously tornadoes need to model the laminar flow field far more accurately
20:43:28 <kilobyte> ontoclasm: I was afraid someone of you will say that :p
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20:44:01 <bh> ontoclasm, kilobyte: I still want to change ood so it doesn't explode on the first thing it hits. Folks who know what they're doing disagree :)
20:44:21 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  biconnected within LOS, within radius of the tornado?
20:44:35 <kilobyte> biconnected within radius only
20:44:48 <ens> and the pressure changes from tornado could cause precipitation due to the change in water vapor saturation pressure!
20:44:48 <|amethyst> oh, so things cut out as it gets smaller?
20:45:07 <kilobyte> it will hit things on the other side of a pillar, but because it moves them it's not a concern
20:45:21 <ontoclasm> bh: what would it do instead? damage you and pass on through?
20:46:07 <bh> ontoclasm: suppose it deals 10 damage before exploding. It would plow through butterflies and small summons before detonating
20:46:10 <ens> bh: haha, yeah, someone made a paper based on this at work and then tried to see how long it took before people realised it was drivel.
20:46:41 <kilobyte> |amethyst: when initially implemented, it had the same radius for the whole duration.  After galehar's changes, it grows in radius then stops.
20:46:50 <bh> ens: Whenever I get conference spam, I reply with a paper from there. "Markov van H-----" is still unpublished
20:46:52 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  in http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/tornado.txt  what should happen?
20:47:12 <kilobyte> bh: ah, like with proposed "shotgun spells"
20:47:14 <bh> |amethyst: jack.
20:47:21 <ens> Markov, appropriate name.
20:47:26 <bh> ??shotgun spells
20:47:26 <Wenzell> I don't have a page labeled shotgun_spells in my learndb.
20:47:32 <ontoclasm> |amethyst: i agree with bh, seems like the wall should shield them
20:47:45 <bh> ontoclasm: or the tornado should creep around the edges of the walls a tiny bit
20:47:56 <ontoclasm> maybe
20:48:15 <kilobyte> |amethyst: 123 will get blown away from their nook and rotate around the walls
20:48:20 <ontoclasm> more evidence of the need for a realistic compressible-flow simulation
20:49:05 <ens> looks like we may need that S3 cluster after all!
20:50:12 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  what about now?
20:50:25 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  assuming counterclockwise tornado (I can never remember)
20:50:36 <kilobyte> still
20:50:50 <kilobyte> it can flow around the L-shaped wall
20:50:59 <|amethyst> it's allowed to move backwards wrt the wind?
20:51:28 <|amethyst> they can only move W or S against a wind moving them NE
20:51:47 <kilobyte> the current algorithm is simple, it looks only at angle rather than the actual layout
20:51:58 <kilobyte> angle and distance, that is
20:52:38 <ens> random idea came to mind. Arrows of controlled dispersion. Now you are thinking with portals.
20:53:15 <Wensley> arrows of controlled teleport
20:53:24 <bh> hey Wensley
20:53:33 <Wensley> bh: yo what is up
20:53:42 <Wensley> arrows of portal projectile
20:53:44 <bh> casting Tornado near lava should produce flame clouds. That would make me happy.
20:53:55 <kilobyte> before Grunt's change, they'd tunnel to the other side of the wall (as there's wind on both sides).  After Grunt's change, they'll magically move to the westernmost side of the room.
20:54:30 <ens> bh: and vapor clouds near water, yeah, that'd be sweet.
20:54:35 <|amethyst> hm
20:54:49 <ens> it already moves clouds about, so i guess it wouldn't be hard to do.
20:54:50 <bh> ens: How does the spell interact with existing clouds?
20:54:55 <bh> too slow :)
20:55:24 * kilobyte feels that it might end with actual flow simulations after all...
20:55:32 <ens> would be a nice way to stop scumming tornado+lava mobs
20:55:52 <ens> "do you like to be covered in firenado?"
20:56:11 <kilobyte> tornado is the only way to get a salamander's corpse
20:56:58 <bh> ens: I'm the reason why silent spectres don't use stairs ;)
20:56:58 <kilobyte> oh, corpse-less.  Get their gear, then.
20:57:31 <ens> bh: oh? what happens when they do?
20:57:35 <ens> ah, wait
20:57:36 <ens> i seeeee
20:57:41 <bh> ens: I lured one to Elf:5
20:57:57 <ens> brilliant.
20:58:24 <ens> bet that was an easy elf:5
20:59:09 <ens> actually i was wondering about uses for scrolls of noise, would be nice if they cancelled out the silence in your square for one turn or something.
20:59:19 <ens> maybe too OP
21:01:35 <Wensley> ens: you can't even read scrolls while silenced :)
21:01:47 <elliott> kilobyte: does swapping with a salamander work?
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21:03:07 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  Hm... I guess in a funnel they will (or should) bounce around a bit while those in front of them escape?
21:04:01 <|amethyst> "flow" seems like it would be difficult
21:04:01 <kilobyte> a full flow simulation would have different speeds :p
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21:04:32 <|amethyst> hm
21:05:01 <|amethyst> so they squirt through?  that could be amusing
21:05:08 <ens> Wensley: bit of a spanner in the works then, i suppose
21:05:40 * ens curses his scroll of noise silently.
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21:05:50 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  but it seems like your flow has to be a permutation
21:05:52 <Wensley> ens: no big deal, just need to convert scroll of noise into potion of noise
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21:07:20 <|amethyst> that would solve the problem, though: set up a permutation of space, apply that permutation N times, where N = you.time_taken / tornado_speed
21:08:46 <|amethyst> (with fractional rounding, but everyone misses their chance at the same time, so it would seem jerky to hasted spriggans
21:08:55 <ens> Wensley: haha, trippy stuff.
21:08:56 <|amethyst> err, random rounding I mean
21:09:21 <ens> quaff the scroll!
21:09:56 <|amethyst> I'm just not sure whether that permutation can be set up in a reasonable way, though
21:11:16 <Wensley> ens: maybe we can change the game mechanics such that it's possible to use scrolls by eating them
21:11:18 * kilobyte ponders ens killing the treasure, stealing the princess and rescuing the dragon.
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21:13:41 <ens> plot twist!
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21:56:54 <bh> grumble. firefox is crashy.
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