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00:01:04 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1080-g3321704 (34)
00:01:13 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1080-g3321704 (34)
00:01:43 <ontoclasm1> i am not a programmer, i don't know how this stuff works .-.
00:03:01 <elliott> me too!
00:03:05 <elliott> and I am a programmer
00:03:11 <elliott> so at least that is not what is to blame
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00:03:52 <DracoOmega> Yeah, the tiles code is... um... kind of unintuitive
00:03:56 <DracoOmega> To say the least
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00:07:44 <DracoOmega> On a completely seperate note, it's been like a week now and termcast.develz.org remains inaccessible to me. Is it really plausible that it could be a routing issue between here and there for this long?
00:08:48 <edlothiol> ontoclasm1: add heat aura to the parameterless packed_cell constructor
00:09:13 <edlothiol> not sure if that is it, but it might be
00:10:05 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1080-g3321704
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00:10:26 <ontoclasm1> well, let's see
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00:11:54 <ontoclasm1> hey, that fixed it
00:11:56 <ontoclasm1> awesome
00:12:10 <edlothiol> that constructor should probably just call clear()
00:12:16 <ontoclasm1> in that case i'm done
00:12:26 <edlothiol> heat_aura was uninitialized, so it was a random value
00:12:30 <ontoclasm1> i also fixed the local tiles temperature bar, which was showing up black
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00:13:45 <ontoclasm1> aha
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00:15:09 <elliott> ahh
00:15:28 <edlothiol> I'm just not sure why that only mattered for monsters
00:16:29 <ontoclasm1> well, it would probably have mattered for anything that called the parameterless version
00:16:36 <ontoclasm1> but a monster was the first thing i ran into that did so
00:16:51 <ontoclasm1> okay, i sent you a pull request
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00:32:11 <ontoclasm1> edlothiol: i also found a bug that affects the console version, and i'm not sure how to fix it
00:32:50 <ontoclasm1> if you go into a full-screen menu like A or %, when you come back the temperature  not redrawn
00:32:59 <ontoclasm1> until you take a step or do something
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00:42:09 <edlothiol> ontoclasm1: I haven't seen Eronarn's patch in detail, but I'd guess something like you.redraw_temperature (no idea if that exists) needs to be added to the list in redraw_screen (stuff.cc:311)
00:43:01 <ontoclasm1> yeah, if nobody else fixes it i'll try and figure it out at some point
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00:44:54 <edlothiol> you.redraw_temperature does indeed exist
00:45:07 <edlothiol> and is not set to true in redraw_screen, which it probably should
00:49:57 <edlothiol> anyway, need to go
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02:00:54 <Cheibriados> Pitsprint generated unrandart with wrong enchantment (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6383) by elliptic
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03:17:56 <Cheibriados> "Bazaars" misspelling in dumps (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6384) by raskol
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03:37:12 <edlothiol> are the new android sdk terms of use a problem with the CrystaX NDK? ( http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57550824-93/google-modifies-android-sdk-to-battle-platform-fragmentation/ )
03:38:58 <kilobyte> at the very least, not until CrystaX merges upstream changes, which goes against what CrystaX is about (support for ancient versions)
03:38:58 <Henzell> kilobyte: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
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04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1081-gb94e040: Drop apises to the ground. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b94e0406db63
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1082-ge17e75f: Explain why the bat form can stay up even when overencumbered. 10(3 days ago, 3 files, 7+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e17e75f30673
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1083-gc2d1627: Put "animated by" in Tukima-ed weapons' blame reason. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c2d162733a77
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1084-g5eac9c1: Remove generation logic for amulets of controlled fly. 10(2 days ago, 2 files, 7+ 4-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5eac9c1a3e4e
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1085-g4dfed47: Remove a crapload of array references from a single function. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 33+ 30-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4dfed47af800
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1086-g497b26e: Fix a spider of Xom crash. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=497b26e9ba41
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1087-g10d3461: Don't show menu prefixes in item desc if they're empty. 10(32 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=10d346123ea9
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1088-g7179649: Make Trog's passing out protection less spammy. 10(17 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 5-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=71796498bce2
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1089-gae63293: Don't let plus:666 or plus2:2147483647 alter unrandarts. 10(39 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ae6329322d0e
04:08:58 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1090-gb1d0cd1: Fix a wretched star crash if you get a complete set of bad mutations. 10(17 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b1d0cd1e1d9b
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04:10:36 <kilobyte> are there any changes you'd like to have in 0.11.1?  I think it's time for a point release.
04:10:53 <kilobyte> I have trouble reproducing a Royal Jelly crash
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04:30:05 <Zaba> kilobyte, would be nice to fix #6328 for it
04:31:41 <Zaba> even though it's not game-breaking, people do notice..
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04:36:26 <kilobyte> that's trunk, not 0.11
04:37:11 <kilobyte> also, 5cffb9fa is pointless
04:39:50 <Zaba> oh, 0.11 was earlier than 24f731f8
04:39:56 * Zaba is lost in time
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04:41:52 <Zaba> kilobyte, it seems like it should SHUFFLE: BCD before replacing them with subvaults, unless I'm missing something bigger
04:44:34 <kilobyte> it works around the same bug as Vaults:$ runes
04:45:05 <Zaba> ah
04:45:24 <ontoclasm1> i need a great big sign on my computer that reminds me to apply everything i do to webtiles too
04:45:34 <ontoclasm1> since i forget it every single time
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04:47:18 <edlothiol> if the tiles code was sane, that would probably not be necessary :(
04:47:56 <ontoclasm1> well the main problem is just that local tiles and webtiles are literally written in different languages
04:48:50 <ontoclasm1> so everything has to be implemented twice
04:48:55 <edlothiol> yes, but a lot of the tile picking is already done on the server side, if all of it was done there, this kind of thing wouldn't require client modifications
04:49:09 <ontoclasm1> ah
04:50:01 <edlothiol> e.g. if you modify how the player doll looks, you don't need to change anything on the client
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04:53:38 <edlothiol> kilobyte: could put 33217044c091c0fa3d15c4a28b73bdbf0e71eb98 into 0.11.1
04:54:54 <edlothiol> although it's not really that important
04:55:57 <ontoclasm1> the problem is 0.11 doesn't have nearly enough terrible bugs
04:57:00 <kilobyte> yeah, it baked for quite a while before release
04:57:35 <ontoclasm1> clearly we need to avoid this problem for 0.12
04:57:52 <edlothiol> (actually, I haven't even tested if i [slot] r is broken in 0.11, but I assume so)
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04:59:00 <kilobyte> 42 commits since 0.11.0
04:59:20 <kilobyte> edlothiol: could you tell us which webtiles changes should be picked?
04:59:43 <edlothiol> none, as far as I see
04:59:48 <Cheibriados> Cherry-picked 4 commits into stone_soup-0.11
05:00:04 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1080-g3321704
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05:25:12 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-1091-gce4d1fc: Fix a Royal Jelly + fire vortex crash. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ce4d1fc2da26
05:25:13 <Cheibriados> Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.11
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05:56:20 <kilobyte> could someone sanity-check http://sprunge.us/PDFQ ?
06:01:06 <edlothiol> s/some Xom's spells/some of Xom's spells/
06:01:30 <edlothiol> is "Non-goods" intentional?
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06:02:59 <kilobyte> non-good gods...
06:03:23 * kilobyte hits his skull to shake the void inside a bit...
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06:10:56 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07[stone_soup-0.11] * 0.11.0-44-g784a3a8: Kludge around portal vault entrances/exits not getting their colours. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=784a3a87a69f
06:10:56 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07[stone_soup-0.11] * 0.11.0-45-gf0af63a: Changelog for 0.11.1 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 14+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f0af63ab312a
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07:06:53 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07[debian-trunk] * 0.10-a0-2992-ged4a6b2: Fix /usr/share/doc/crawl/ on installs that were upgraded from 0.4 or earlier. 10(24 hours ago, 2 files, 17+ 0-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ed4a6b249fd4
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07:17:15 <Mu_> did that portal thing fix door colours
07:17:48 <Mu_> k nope ;p
07:19:05 <kilobyte> portal portals, not doors
07:19:15 <kilobyte> and that "fix" is so ugly I'm not putting it in trunk
07:19:23 <kilobyte> or rather, incomplete
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07:42:57 <Gretell> Debian builds of 0.11 branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11.1
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08:48:31 <Eronarn> edlothiol: thanks for the help with lava orcs!
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08:48:54 <Eronarn> !tell ontoclasm I merged in your pull request. That was a lot of work, thank you! (The tiles look gorgeous too)
08:48:54 <Henzell> Eronarn: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know.
08:57:26 <edlothiol> there's still a bit missing for webtiles
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09:00:30 <Sizzell> Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11.1-0-gf0af63a
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09:02:11 <kilobyte> could be nice to trigger a rebuild of webtiles on CDO, too
09:03:05 <edlothiol> need to ping Napkin for that
09:03:09 <Gretell> Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11.1-0-gf0af63a (33)
09:03:19 <kilobyte> |amethyst: care to update 0.11 on CAO?  I just tagged 0.11.1
09:04:25 <kilobyte> there was quite a few of month-old bugs left fixed but un-updated during the tourney
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09:05:38 <Sizzell> Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11.1-0-gf0af63a
09:06:53 <Eronarn> i am willing to do webtiles stuff but i have no idea how to so
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09:11:12 <edlothiol> Eronarn: basically, tileweb.cc:773 needs to send heat_aura, it should be obvious how to add it
09:11:30 <edlothiol> Eronarn: ontoclasm added the client code for rendering, but missed that part
09:12:46 <|amethyst> kilobyte: rebuilding now, but you can do it too at http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/
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09:36:13 <|amethyst> okay, CAO is updated (Henzell is not announcing, it seems)
09:36:21 <|amethyst> s/announcing/& updates/
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10:03:48 <Eronarn> edlothiol: do I want:
10:03:49 <Eronarn> if (next_pc.heat_aura != current_pc.heat_aura)
10:03:50 <Eronarn> write_message("heat_aura:%u,", next_pc.heat_aura);
10:04:25 <Eronarn> and does it matter which order it goes in
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10:30:36 <Moredread> !seen frogbotherer
10:30:37 <Henzell> Moredread: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
10:30:37 <Henzell> I last saw frogbotherer at Sun Nov 11 17:26:01 2012 UTC (4d 23h 4m 35s ago) joining the channel.
10:30:37 <Wenzell> I last saw frogbotherer at Sun Nov 11 23:23:25 2012 UTC (4d 17h 7m 11s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection.
10:30:44 <Moredread> !messages
10:30:44 <Henzell> (1/1) frogbotherer said (5d 4h 8m 35s ago): pinch-to-zoom android build here: http://www.mediafire.com/?6ahaedbl9pfbs0e      -- you need to uninstall original version, move/delete /sdcard/app-data/org.develz.crawl, and install this one. It is *VERY* experimental: please let me know where it crashes :D
10:31:04 <edlothiol> Eronarn: yes, and no, but I'd prefer it to be after travel_trail
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10:48:22 <Eronarn> okay, that's committed and pushed then
10:48:44 <Eronarn> kilobyte: i pushed all of the changes so far to lava_orc on my github. out for lunch, but will be back later
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13:58:21 <Cheibriados> 03dolorous 07* 0.12-a0-1092-gdbe1759: Add wording fixes. 10(64 seconds ago, 2 files, 3+ 3-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dbe1759e2224
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14:10:57 <Eronarn> so who wants to lorc merge :3
14:11:45 <Zannick> ooh, ooh, o/
14:12:02 <Zannick> :P
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14:43:36 <Eronarn> how do i actually tiles compile / play
14:43:53 <elliott> make TILES=y
14:43:59 <elliott> iirc
14:44:25 <Cheibriados> Felids kneel at altars (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6385) by helsbecter
14:44:25 <edlothiol> indeed
14:44:37 <Eronarn> i figure i should maybe actually test lorc tiles
14:44:58 <edlothiol> also see INSTALL.txt for dependencies
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14:48:28 <Henzell> Aknarski the Firebug (L2 OgFE)  (D:1)
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15:32:49 <kilobyte> !lm Aknarski type=crash -log
15:32:49 <Sequell> 1. Aknarski, XL2 OgFE, T:542 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Aknarski/crash-Aknarski-20121116-204827.txt
15:33:16 <kilobyte> hay Apache on CAO still being down
15:35:21 <Eronarn> use IIS, problem solved
15:39:09 <Eronarn> kilobyte: any chance of lorc merge?
15:39:24 <Eronarn> ontoclasm: i just tried it in tiles, they look even better in action
15:39:48 <kilobyte> Zaba quite chastised me of still leaving Vaults:$ runes unfixed, but I guess not just me would kill me for postponing lorcs :p
15:40:23 <elliott> pleaes never ruin multiple silver runes. it is very convenient to not have to worry about exploring multiple quadrants!
15:40:52 <HangedMan> it is very inconvenient to have to use luniq in my subvault based portal, fix it already
15:41:11 <ontoclasm> Eronarn: yeah, they came out pretty well
15:41:41 <ontoclasm> i stil need to figure out how to implement the case where the player chooses a different base tile
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15:41:59 <ontoclasm> so for now female lorcs don't glow
15:42:01 <kilobyte> ontoclasm: does anyone ever use - anyway?
15:42:02 <elliptic> kilobyte: it would be sort of nice to stop messing up sequell rune stats...
15:42:25 <kilobyte> right...
15:42:26 <ontoclasm> well it doesn't exist on webtiles but i know numerous local players use it
15:42:50 <kilobyte> it's quite thoroughly unmaintained, at least
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15:45:38 <Eronarn> ontoclasm: i see you did something like base tile + 1, 2, etc. - can't you just check that?
15:46:12 <ontoclasm> i'm not sure where the player's choice of base tile is stored
15:46:25 <ontoclasm> (mainly because i was doing the ptch at like 3 am and fell aslepp before i got round to looking)
15:46:25 <Eronarn> also, i think it could be good to represent passive heat (and cold) on the tile
15:46:45 <Eronarn> also i guess DS should be able to get passive heat, or something?
15:46:47 <ontoclasm> how do you mean? the heat aura has a tile
15:46:53 <ontoclasm> oh i see what you mean
15:46:55 <Eronarn> ontoclasm: there is passive heat, like DS passive freeze, too
15:47:11 <ontoclasm> yeah i could maybe do a tso-halo-like backdrop
15:48:07 <Eronarn> the use of straight tension seems to work early on, if perhaps a bit easy. it is going to need so much testing though
15:48:12 <Eronarn> i should write a thing to log that
15:48:43 <Eronarn> dunno how that would work with the server though...
15:48:56 <Eronarn> what about logging the tension at every milestone?
15:49:09 <Eronarn> that seems relatively non-obtrusive
15:49:23 <kilobyte> I abused notes a few times, but having a log somewhere would be nice
15:49:38 <kilobyte> perhaps next to oh-so-useful .lst files
15:49:54 <Eronarn> kilobyte: it could also be nice to have it accessible via henzell so we can have tenseplayers
15:49:54 <ontoclasm> oh, i do have a lorc suggestion
15:50:13 <ontoclasm> temperature should have a max change per turn
15:50:32 <ontoclasm> it feels really weird to walk in view of something and jump instantly from ice cold to full heat
15:50:34 <Eronarn> yeah, that sounds reasonable. it does jump too much even despite the sqrt when you see an ogre or something
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15:52:11 <elliptic> recording tension in the milestone file sounds cool if it isn't leaking any information to the player
15:52:33 <kilobyte> elliptic: what about having tension on wizmode HUD?
15:52:44 <elliptic> that also sounds good
15:52:50 <Eronarn> elliptic: that is a good point; tension leaks HP values i think
15:53:15 <Eronarn> also i wonder if tension checks invisibility, hmm
15:53:41 <elliptic> eronarn: yeah... I don't know how reasonable it would be to change tension to only use information available to the player
15:54:01 <elliott> does it really leak exact HP values
15:54:21 <elliott> seems like it'd be too imprecise because it's combining several factors you don't know precisely otherwise?
15:54:26 <Eronarn> elliptic: yes, though not always retrievably if there's multiple stuff on...
15:54:26 <Eronarn> yes
15:54:36 <Eronarn> er, elliott, whoops
15:54:57 <kilobyte> seems simple to fix by using hp tiers instead
15:55:08 <kilobyte> zombies, of course
15:55:23 <elliptic> yeah, hp tiers seem like they should be fine to use instead for that
15:55:40 <Eronarn> it also checks spells
15:55:41 <elliptic> invis monsters might be trickier... does an invis monster a player doesn't know about increase tension? should it?
15:55:44 <Eronarn> certain spells are special cased
15:55:49 <Eronarn> thus it could leak spellbook
15:56:00 <Eronarn> though this is pretty obscure
15:56:31 <elliptic> leaking this little info on milestones isn't really a problem anyway
15:56:33 <elliott> imo use it as an opportunity to show zombie HP
15:56:49 <elliptic> since you can't just create milestones on demand
15:57:00 <elliptic> well you can create one with aXY :P
15:57:35 <Eronarn> by the way, does anyone object to the proposed tension change? make it scale much more dramatically with low HP
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16:00:52 <Eronarn> hmm, do people think berserk should max temp instantly?
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16:05:13 <Eronarn> oh, ahah
16:05:15 <Eronarn> i found a bug!
16:05:55 <ontoclasm> ?
16:06:04 <Eronarn> i had berserk increment temperature by 16
16:06:07 <Eronarn> this used to be >max
16:06:15 <Eronarn> however, i later made temperature increments sqrt
16:06:21 <Eronarn> so going berserk was just giving 4 temp
16:08:40 <Eronarn> hmm, drops too fast after you leave berserk though...
16:09:00 <Mu_> maybe they just can't go berserk if they're too cold
16:09:22 <Eronarn> that sounds interesting
16:09:55 <ontoclasm> You are unable to raise a rage in your stone body!
16:10:34 <Mu_> you're too cool to lose your temper ;-)
16:10:40 <Mu_> including the emoticon
16:11:08 <Eronarn> i think that will wait for round 2 but it should be on the table
16:11:13 <Eronarn> esp. if lobe ends up being too good
16:11:27 <ontoclasm> Ice. Cold. B^J
16:11:43 <Eronarn> hmm, for some reason lorcs drop to temp 0 when they end berserk
16:11:45 <Eronarn> i forget if i added that
16:12:07 <Eronarn> what function gets called when leaving berserk
16:12:43 <Eronarn> ah here we go
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16:13:39 <Eronarn> and another bug found, hooray
16:13:52 <ontoclasm> we need an insectoid race
16:14:00 <ontoclasm> so we can make puns about bugs
16:14:15 <ontoclasm> puns are the only reason i do anything
16:18:31 <kilobyte> perhaps with four hands, and incapable of shouting?
16:19:12 <Eronarn> oh that's interesting, entering lava takes no move currently
16:19:36 <ontoclasm> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1C86HpRYVYo/Td6Hqdkr3wI/AAAAAAAAAA0/f-2qDh8Qbow/s1600/1d5a13d401894749b9cf188b259c8458371282ce.jpg
16:19:36 <Eronarn> or... not no, but it's definitely not a normal cost action
16:19:52 <Eronarn> ah, they are fast swimmers
16:19:54 <Eronarn> i should fix that
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16:22:38 <Eronarn> where the heck is that even defined
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16:27:21 <Eronarn> haha now i feel dumb. part of it is that they get fast move at high temp now
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16:31:10 <Eronarn> ontoclasm: thanks, that cap really helps a lot
16:31:43 <Eronarn> ??lorc todo
16:31:43 <Wenzell> lorc todo[1/4]: Slow move when entering lava (see 34b4ea2ce805c9c6d40f42f410f5082cf64e8ff1 for some related code)
16:31:48 <Eronarn> !learn del lorc_todo[1]
16:31:48 <Wenzell> Deleted lorc todo[1/4]: Slow move when entering lava (see 34b4ea2ce805c9c6d40f42f410f5082cf64e8ff1 for some related code)
16:32:37 <Eronarn> kilobyte: other than beogh that one was the only one you for sure wanted before merge, yes?
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16:35:09 <ontoclasm> :D lorkz
16:35:18 <kilobyte> only when currently cold, of course
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16:37:19 <Eronarn> kilobyte: i made it be 2x move getting in or out; their fastmove from being hot (always max heat in lava) makes them fast swimmers
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16:37:55 <ontoclasm> urgent question: what message do lorcs get when teleporting into lava
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16:39:41 <Eronarn> ontoclasm: "You fall into the lava."
16:39:48 <Eronarn> there is no floosh because that only triggers with water
16:40:33 <ontoclasm> that's sad
16:40:45 <ontoclasm> fr: falling-into-laval onomatopoeia
16:40:49 <Eronarn> splorch?
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16:41:03 <Eronarn> splooge
16:41:08 <ontoclasm> splizzzasch
16:41:19 <Eronarn> i mean, i can add it in
16:41:20 <Eronarn> i never ran into this in testing
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16:41:36 <ontoclasm> clearly a high-priority bug
16:41:54 <Eronarn> ontoclasm: well actually, floosh is noise 4
16:42:01 <Eronarn> splash is noise 8
16:42:24 <Eronarn> so right now falling into lava is silent
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16:43:46 <ontoclasm> obviously, before fixing it
16:43:54 <ontoclasm> you have to win a rtele-stabber lorc
16:44:02 <ontoclasm> who specializes in rteleing into lava
16:44:43 <Eronarn> oh that in a roundabout way reminded me of other old code
16:47:42 <Eronarn> hmm, maybe 'Glub!'
16:47:49 <Eronarn> or 'Gloorp!'
16:47:51 <Eronarn> i like gloorp
16:48:49 <elliott> imo gloop > gloorp
16:49:02 <Eronarn> yeah i went with that
16:50:04 <Zannick> gloorp vlop
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16:50:52 <kilobyte> Zannick: heh, I had this typed, just wondered what the last letter should be :p
16:51:15 <elliott> fr if you slimify gloorx you get gloorp vlop
16:51:18 <elliott> the slime lord
16:51:48 <Zannick> gloorx converts to jiyva
16:52:59 <Eronarn> gloopplayers
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16:55:52 <Eronarn> okay, pushed the assorted bugfixes/improvements/gloop
16:56:38 <kilobyte> I don't understand why Slimify works only on living and undead
16:56:56 <elliott> to keep holiness?
16:57:02 <elliott> also because slimifying demons would be sort of op
16:57:03 <kilobyte> I'd expect demons/holies to be more vulnerable than undead, being mutable and having a metabolism
16:58:17 <kilobyte> why should it be more overpowered in some branches compared to others?
16:58:23 <Eronarn> please, please name the holy ooze pearl jam
16:59:14 <Eronarn> blood pudding would be a good demon ooze
16:59:30 <Eronarn> however, this is a dumb idea because holy/demon poly is dumb
17:00:09 <elliott> kilobyte: well the branches with demons are the extended ones...
17:00:28 <kilobyte> elliott: which suggests the formula behind Slimify success might be wrong
17:01:13 <kilobyte> Eronarn: I fail to see why holiness need to be kept
17:01:41 <kilobyte> Eronarn: for undead -> death ooze, there might be a modicum of reason...  for plants, demons or holies, not so much
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17:58:47 <elliptic> kilobyte: there is no formula behind slimify success if that's what you mean
17:59:12 <elliott> it is still an instakill on hit, right?
17:59:21 <elliptic> it doesn't check anything other than your ability to hit the monster
17:59:28 <elliptic> (and holiness etc)
17:59:39 <evilmike> that's why the mythical "knife of accuracy + jiyva" strategy exists
17:59:48 <elliott> "doing a mikee"
18:00:04 <elliptic> possibly it should be non-guaranteed but I sort of like how it works at present
18:00:15 <elliott> I like slimify's simplicity
18:00:22 <evilmike> it does at least cost piety
18:00:23 <elliott> and its use as an escape option
18:00:32 <elliptic> I think it would be hard to balance it working on demons unless you made the chance of affecting cerebov etc actually zero
18:00:43 <evilmike> I don't know what the number is but it felt like a non-trivial cost last time I tried it
18:00:50 <elliott> (if wanting to nerf jiyva how about the part where you get lifesaving jellies that kill everything when hurt :p)
18:02:04 <evilmike> aren't &'s already immune to polymorph? Or is it just the uniques?
18:02:19 <evilmike> maybe they could be handwaved as immune to slimify for the same reason
18:02:54 <elliptic> ehh, I don't even know what the reason is other than "it's a bad idea to allow this"
18:03:16 <elliptic> and personally I think demon polymorph in general was a bad idea
18:03:37 <elliott> I was about to say it seems like not having demon poly would be the simplest thing here... turning Grinder into an Executioner is sort of ridiculous
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18:04:33 <evilmike> I'm not terribly bothered by demon polymorphing
18:05:27 <evilmike> maybe it's just me... but I think of demons/holies as basically "alive"
18:06:08 <evilmike> what I do think there is a problem with is crazy things like grinder the hellephant/executioner (even though it's also very funny)
18:06:14 <elliott> I think of holies as just regular "animals" (esp. with things like paladins and Mennas and so on)... not sure why the separate holiness even exists
18:06:36 <elliott> demons seem closer to undead than holies in the space of holiness to me
18:07:10 <elliott> evilmike: have you seen grinder the demonic crawler?
18:07:20 <elliptic> what does being alive have to do with polymorph? I think it would be perfectly consistent to just say that polymorph only works on natural creatures
18:07:22 <evilmike> the one where it kills sigmund?
18:07:44 <elliott> evilmike: yeah, sigmund gets enslaved, poly other wands grinder, and it kills Sigmund (and the player) :)
18:07:53 <elliott> (the poly othering/Sigmund kill is off-screen)
18:08:07 <MarvinPA> yes i'm still not sure how paladins poly into phoenixes either
18:08:23 <MarvinPA> or why polymorph makes angels get given different ranks by their god
18:09:12 <evilmike> elliptic: for me, it's because we have a pretty well established rule that "undead rots instead of transforming". And I can see good reasons for nonliving being immune (I think they are all magic immune too)
18:09:25 <evilmike> whereas with demons, we have several which are actually pretty "close" to animals, such as hell hounds
18:09:35 <elliptic> afaik demon/holy polymorphing doesn't have any good effects on gameplay, it was only added because someone thought it would be more consistent
18:09:50 <evilmike> maybe they're not "natural" creatures, but on the other hand, we have some pretty bizarre stuff under the category of "natural" :P
18:10:39 <evilmike> yeah the gameplay bothers me, I think it might be fixable though
18:10:56 <evilmike> it goes by HD, right? That's a problem, because high tier demons often have low HD
18:11:06 <elliptic> I'll certainly agree that you can give explanations for polymorph working on demon/holy, but I also think that you can give explanations for it only working on natural
18:11:38 <elliptic> and if you can go either way, we should choose the one with better/simpler gameplay...
18:11:41 <elliott> well if the choice is between an arguable inconsistency in polymorph and an inconsistency with slimify<->polymorph the former seems preferable
18:11:52 <elliott> not that slimify is really a polymorph, but it *does* share several similar aspects
18:12:17 <evilmike> if someone wants to get rid of demon polymorph, I won't complain, anyway. I'm just not against the idea in principle
18:12:53 <monqy> 16:10:57 <+evilmike> it goes by HD, right? That's a problem, because high tier  demons often have low HD
18:13:03 <monqy> demon poly also tries to keep within the same tier
18:13:03 <elliptic> I'm not against the idea in principle, I just don't think it works well or can be made to work well because there aren't enough types of demon
18:13:41 <elliptic> natural creatures: tons of options, lots of reasonable stuff that can happen
18:13:48 <evilmike> that's a good point
18:13:55 <elliptic> demons: we need to impose special constraints to make it even start to make sense
18:13:59 <elliptic> holies: ????????
18:15:09 <elliott> holies everything polys into mennas
18:15:14 <evilmike> Holies are at least mostly high-end enemies, so there's less insane stuff like grinder -> executioner
18:15:15 <elliott> except mennas which keeps polying into a pearl dragon like he always does now
18:15:17 <elliptic> evilmike: btw, do you think that maybe polymorph should rot undead monsters instead of just not doing anything?
18:15:49 <evilmike> elliptic: yeah I do. It rots players, it might as well rot undead as well
18:16:08 <evilmike> not that it would be a major effect, but I think we might as well go for consistency
18:16:16 <elliptic> yeah... maybe it should have the usual MR check, and then if it passes that then reduce MHP by a bit?
18:16:23 <evilmike> perhaps it could lower HD
18:16:29 <evilmike> I think players can lose stats, right?
18:16:34 <elliptic> or that, yeah
18:16:35 <elliott> polymorph other, the poor man's dispel undead?
18:17:01 <elliptic> it shouldn't be huge at all, but it would be cool if an early poly other wand were useful against a wasp zombie
18:17:19 <evilmike> the MR check for polymorph also bugs me a bit, to be honest. It's probably needed for balance though
18:17:24 <elliptic> yes
18:17:54 <elliptic> were you around when players got an MR check for polymorph too for a month?
18:18:53 <evilmike> probably missed that. sounds like no one got any mutations for a month
18:19:15 <evilmike> I suppose polymorph does ignore MR against naturally mutagenic creatures, anyway. Let's just assume players are also naturally mutagenic
18:22:42 <elliptic> I don't think that giving players an MR check against polymorph *wand* is necessarily a bad thing
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18:23:03 <elliptic> it just isn't good for monsters with poly other spell
18:23:21 <elliott> can monsters just not zap poly other wands please
18:23:53 <GreatOrbOfEyes> malmutate!!!
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18:24:16 <evilmike> I think I'd rather have the spell and wand be consistent. The other option is to make the wand actually *polymorph* the player, and chance the monster spell to "mutate"
18:24:21 <evilmike> or some variation of that
18:24:31 <elliott> there's still only one bad form in the game isn't there
18:24:48 <elliott> oh, I guess bat form counts as bad
18:24:59 <evilmike> well, some good forms can be bad if they happen at inconvenient times
18:25:11 <elliott> mm
18:25:13 <elliott> unarmed combat buff too :P
18:25:16 <evilmike> I still like my idea of "potion of random mutation" (throw hog and bat form in there, plus all the other current existing forms)
18:27:28 <elliptic> evilmike: yeah, splitting wand/spell would be more consistent
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20:14:42 <Cheibriados> autoexplore gets stuck; maybe involving useless {=g} items (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6386) by reid
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20:18:20 <kilobyte> evilmike: on my TODO list is a separation of Polymorph and Malmutate
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20:18:47 <kilobyte> there'd be two things to code: bad forms for the player, and some simple mutations for monsters
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20:19:03 <kilobyte> (no, that "wretched" placeholder is no good for that)
20:19:18 <kilobyte> bad forms look like a fun thing
20:19:42 <evilmike> my thought for monster mutations is they ought to be more crippling than player ones, so you actually notice them
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20:19:55 <kilobyte> yeah, exactly
20:20:07 <evilmike> like, instead of having slow movement, just give monsters a straight up "no movement" mutation (can still attack, cast spells, etc)
20:20:12 <kilobyte> something like no healing, blindness or slow movement
20:20:33 <kilobyte> no movement would mean "carry a spear with you"
20:20:48 <evilmike> yeah I guess slow movement would be fine
20:20:51 <elliott> blindness would basically just distract things, right? like the player casting invis
20:21:07 <elliott> carry a spear with you already applies really
20:21:10 <elliott> wandering mushrooms and stuff
20:21:11 <kilobyte> blindness has the upside of already existing
20:21:19 <kilobyte> (a Zin effect)
20:22:19 <kilobyte> you find a single vault with wandering mushrooms in ten wins, so that's not worth an inventory slot :p
20:23:02 <evilmike> wandering mushroom form: can't move if monsters can see you
20:23:13 <elliott> kilobyte: well how often will you see monsters get mutated :P
20:23:35 <kilobyte> evilmike: :p
20:25:08 <HangedMan> something something chei
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20:25:58 <evilmike> shroom form would have permanent confusing touch, so it's not exactly a chei thing
20:27:10 <elliott> wandering mushroom honestly sounds like a pretty cool player species
20:27:20 <elliott> if annoying to play
20:27:29 <evilmike> it would be horribly annoying
20:27:35 <elliott> well i guess you could make directions just always swing in that direction to attack if you can't move so it's a bit less annoying
20:27:39 <evilmike> you confuse something in melee, then it steps away. oh well, now you can't melee it any more
20:27:47 <elliott> you'd need magnetism
20:27:52 <elliott> black hole form
20:27:58 <elliott> signature spell of WMTm
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20:47:15 <kilobyte> WM?
20:48:42 <elliott> wandering mushroom
20:49:01 <evilmike> i proposed that as a bad mutation, not a player race :P
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21:56:27 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1093-g7b0cfd6: Let clarity prevent mesmerisation 10(35 hours ago, 2 files, 10+ 6-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7b0cfd6b3698
21:56:27 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1094-g64d6d21: Simplify Mislead behaviour 10(10 hours ago, 5 files, 5+ 25-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=64d6d21ba907
21:56:27 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1095-gb53d840: Give Teleport Other a bonus to power 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b53d8402ee0d
21:56:27 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-1096-gae766eb: Remove the chance for fountains to randomly restart flowing once dried up 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 52-) 13http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ae766eb01e05
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22:05:39 <Gretell> Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-1092-gdbe1759
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23:14:12 <faze> Napkin: The cdo motd still has "Only 0.11 games count in the tournament" in it, fyi
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