00:00:24 <Sizzell> Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11.0-24-g666f47c
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00:03:14 <bh> I believe that shafts are the single greatest mid-game hazard in the game.
00:03:18 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-916-gc993e8b (34)
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00:05:37 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-916-gc993e8b (34)
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00:08:56 <bh> placing shafts in vaults, is, however 'spoiley bullshit'
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00:12:01 <ChrisOelmueller> what is the offending vault?
00:15:24 <kilobyte> bh: unrevealed shafts, that is
00:15:41 <bh> ChrisOelmueller: it was an orcish mines entrance
00:16:12 <ChrisOelmueller> doesn't that one just place all kinds of traps anywhere
00:16:49 <Zannick> two tourneys in a row i've been denied a tso banner by a shaft dropping me straight past d:14 :(
00:17:29 <Zannick> on the first rune-getting game, that is
00:18:31 <ChrisOelmueller> it also looks pretty disabled in git
00:19:20 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-916-gc993e8b
00:20:48 <bh> ChrisOelmueller: I'm mostly annoyed because it made me dead immediately after I made it out of another shaft.
00:20:58 <bh> If I wanted to play chutes and ladders I'd get a couple of dice and some 5 year olds.
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00:21:53 <ChrisOelmueller> %git 5bd651d
00:21:53 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte * 0.12-a0-711-g5bd651d: Disable an Orc entry vault and two Lab endings. 10(3 weeks ago, 2 files, 5+ 0-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/5bd651d33bd1
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00:22:05 <ChrisOelmueller> can't do more than disabling it
00:22:41 <|amethyst> could backport to 0.11 :)
00:22:42 <bh> Why'd I get it?
00:22:48 <bh> |amethyst: yes please.
00:23:29 <ChrisOelmueller> this is not a bugfix
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00:24:29 <BlastHardcheese> fr leave the vaults in and only enable them for tournaments
00:24:38 <bh> !abyss BlastHardcheese
00:24:39 <Henzell> bh casts a spell. BlastHardcheese is devoured by a tear in reality!
00:24:39 <Wenzell> bh casts a spell. BlastHardcheese is devoured by a tear in reality!
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00:30:29 <Zannick> ?? test
00:30:29 <Wenzell> summon butterflies[4/4]: 12Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 9Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 4Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 8Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 11Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ7 Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 6Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ6 10Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
00:30:47 <Zannick> heh, henzell has commands working but not learndb, i see
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01:52:01 <Cheibriados> Fire arrow shot from frost bow not doing extra damage to ice dragons (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6336) by Maha
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03:44:08 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic 07* 0.12-a0-917-g9b62ea2: Fix non-good gods not using divine retribution on their followers (rwbarton). 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/9b62ea297282
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03:47:48 <elliptic> I would cherry-pick to 0.11 but I'm not sure whether such commits make it onto the servers immediately or not? this fix is important enough that it would be bad if some servers had it but not others during the tourney
03:51:18 <ChrisOelmueller> at least for cszo you can trigger a rebuild
03:51:45 <ChrisOelmueller> unless they all rebuild at the same time i don't think that is a strong reason for not pushing
03:52:16 <ChrisOelmueller> are people likely to 'abuse' it?
03:53:10 <DracoOmega> I'm not sure it's really abuseable, but it would give some people a slight advantage over others, in theory
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03:53:41 <monqy> casting spells under trog without fear of getting wrath!!
03:53:54 <DracoOmega> Oh, that's actually something more pertinant
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03:55:26 <elliptic> also people who do something to anger okawaru are actually in some danger after the bugfix
03:55:40 <DracoOmega> Yeah
03:56:00 <DracoOmega> I don't think THAT counts as abuseable, but it is a slight survival advantage
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03:56:52 <elliptic> basically I'm fine with nobody getting the fix until after the tourney
03:57:27 <elliptic> since the bug has been around for long enough that many people seem to expect that things will work this way anyway
03:58:02 <DracoOmega> I suppose there's that
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05:00:04 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-917-g9b62ea2
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06:19:22 <kilobyte> elliptic: IIRC cßo has regular rebuilds
06:19:45 <kilobyte> I can rebuild cdo console and cßo both, but not the rest
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06:21:01 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: it actually is possible to do more than merely disable a vault :p
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07:10:20 <edlothiol> CSN rebuilds daily, I can also trigger a rebuild
07:10:39 <edlothiol> has |amethyst added the rebuild UI for CAO, too?
07:13:55 <kilobyte> so all that's left is CDO's webtiles.  Do you know if it's a matter of a single command or something nastier?
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07:15:51 <edlothiol> the latter, I think :/
07:17:48 <edlothiol> it may not actually be much work, but I think it still requires root
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07:56:34 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  yes, CAO rebuild is at http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/
07:57:35 <kilobyte> |amethyst: great, what's with CDO?
07:57:49 <|amethyst> no clue
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07:58:07 <kilobyte> the bug elliptic fixed is not that critical, though, it's no "press A to crash-rewind"
07:58:16 <Cheibriados> New branch created: stars (0 commits)
07:58:33 <|amethyst> presumably you'd "just" have to replace the crawl binary it's using, but I don't even have an account so I don't know where that would be or what permissions would be required
07:59:14 * kilobyte ponders Chei's counting skills.
08:00:18 <|amethyst> %git stars
08:00:18 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte * 0.12-a0-923-g33a74cf: Block Acute Vision by temp Blurry Vision. 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 18+ 21-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/33a74cf904af
08:00:30 <|amethyst> hm, weird
08:01:30 <|amethyst> oh
08:01:35 <|amethyst> fata: bad revision '%
08:01:37 <|amethyst> err
08:01:42 <|amethyst> fatal: bad revision '^'
08:02:19 <kilobyte> actually, the bug doesn't seem to be that severe at all.  You still pay by being unable to use any god powers for a while, there's few transgressions bad enough to warrant that.  Basically just haste with CB, and it still has you with sub-standard speed.
08:03:27 <elliptic> kilobyte: yeah, it's not huge at all... I'd still rather not give CDO webtilers an unfair advantage though
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08:04:33 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
08:04:33 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: CAO is back, in time for tournament play! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious!
08:05:26 <kilobyte> in other words, better to have a level playing ground
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08:16:36 <Cryp71c> Morning
08:17:01 <kilobyte> afternoon!
08:17:06 <Cryp71c> :)
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08:36:39 <|amethyst> hm... why isn't it catching that bit of crypt.des
08:36:41 <|amethyst> doh
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09:05:28 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-918-g0527097: Make a note when a stat drops to <= 0. 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/0527097542cc
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10:57:10 <ChrisOelmueller> kilobyte: re more than disabling, i was under the impression that disabled vaults can only be deleted after several years have passed :P
11:02:29 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-919-g8ca8615: Fix a crash with Xom repelling stairs behind an obstacle. 10(25 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 2-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/8ca86152eec5
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11:06:28 <kilobyte> is there _any_ reason other than flaws in the lua interface for troves requiring the item to be identified?
11:07:35 <Cheibriados> Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.11
11:08:37 <elliott> lets you partially identify weapon enchantment!
11:08:44 <elliott> at the cost of the weapon if it's well-enchanted enough
11:08:53 <elliott> (if you let unidentified items in, I mean)
11:09:22 <ChrisOelmueller> that sounds like a not so good trade :P
11:10:03 <ChrisOelmueller> "hm i wonder if this weapon is below +5 because i really don't want to use it if it is better"
11:10:15 <elliott> ChrisOelmueller: well if you want a puddingbane
11:10:17 <kilobyte> if you wear a [contam] robe, you won't have to burn an id scroll to id that GDA
11:10:20 <elliott> fr puddings
11:10:46 <elliott> kilobyte: er, but if it gets identified it'll be consumed, right?
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11:11:17 <kilobyte> elliott: without death drops spawning out of nothing, they'd be quite pointless
11:11:23 <MarvinPA> surely it's a bug that gda isn't id'd anyway
11:11:33 <MarvinPA> if you made it from a hide, that is
11:11:56 <ChrisOelmueller> why are +n dragon hides a thing by the way
11:11:58 <ChrisOelmueller> for n > 0
11:12:16 <MarvinPA> they aren't
11:12:20 <elliott> kilobyte: well you could make them give xp!
11:12:46 <kilobyte> if (armour_is_hide(item))
11:12:46 <kilobyte> item.plus = 0;
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11:53:20 <Cheibriados> 03Mu 07* 0.12-a0-920-g3b8bacc: Slightly tweak fog generation in wizlab_cigotuvi. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/3b8bacc56500
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11:57:22 <Gretell> Turgon (L11 DsGl) ERROR in 'libutil.cc' at line 968: screen write out of bounds: (1,25) into (80,24) (D:11)
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13:09:58 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA 07* 0.12-a0-921-g759878c: Fix Zin wrath using hibernate instead of sleep, use default paralysis durations 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/759878cb97f9
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13:38:10 <Mu_> is there a way to specify a range of quantities in a vault's item placement
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13:39:49 <Mu_> e.g. i can place 50 sausages with 'q:50 sausage', but if i wanted a range of between 50 and 100 sausages i'm not sure what i'd do
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13:42:50 <elliott> Mu_: you can do that with lua i think?>
13:42:58 <elliott> just by picking a random number between 50 and 100 and splicing it in
13:43:08 <elliott> i think there's rng functions in crawl.*
13:45:17 <Mu_> i don't really understand the lua stuff~
13:45:39 <Mu_> i know there are some dice rolls in crypt.des i'll try and figure it out from that..
13:47:19 <elliott> Mu_: how about something like...
13:48:10 <elliott> Mu_: : kitem("blah blah blah = ... q:" .. 50 + crawl.random2(51) .. " sausage")
13:49:28 <Mu_> i shall try this
13:52:26 <Mu_> _You see here 86 sausages.
13:52:28 <Mu_> thanks
13:53:56 <elliott> np
13:54:39 <elliott> Mu_: actually you should probably use crawl.random_range(50, 100)
13:54:42 <elliott> rather than 50 + crawl.random2(51)
13:54:46 <Mu_> ok
13:55:11 <elliott> it's the same but less ugly :p
13:55:18 <elliptic> Mu_: btw that is a lot of sausages
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13:55:51 <Mu_> agreed
13:57:32 <Mu_> wish i could just use 'KITEM: s = q:50-100 sausage'
13:57:33 <Mu_> :p
13:58:14 <Mu_> they're just test sausages btw, i'm not actually making a vault with a hundred sausages
13:59:29 <elliott> pfft why not
13:59:41 <elliott> q:50-100 sausages seems fairly easy to cause
13:59:48 <elliott> but i'm not sure how much use it would be
13:59:53 <elliott> er, *to code
13:59:55 <Zannick> mu_sausage_fest
14:03:20 <Cryp71c> ...that seems, unfortunate...I slept a boulder beetle and he still rolled into me and killed me.
14:03:24 <Cryp71c> ??boulder beetle
14:03:25 <Wenzell> boulder beetle[1/2]: Vulnerable to poison! In 0.11, has a fixed chance to starting rolling per move, which pushes it from speed 6 to speed 14 and makes them fire towards you like a non-re-directing iood for 3d20 EV-ignoring damage.
14:03:31 <elliptic> notabug
14:03:36 <MarvinPA> heh
14:03:53 <MarvinPA> i wouldn't be surprised if they keep going through paralysis also though
14:04:01 <elliptic> also notabug IMO if so
14:04:21 <elliptic> paralysis shouldn't stop inertia
14:04:53 <elliott> fr if you run too much in one direction then you have to skid a bit before turning
14:04:58 <elliott> basically like Asteroids but turn-based
14:05:56 <kilobyte> bad on its own, but on a new race and/or god...
14:06:00 <ChrisOelmueller> how about on felids
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14:06:09 <elliott> kilobyte: iood species
14:06:14 <elliptic> some cats do that all the time, yes
14:06:15 <ChrisOelmueller> not like anything could ruin them more
14:06:23 <MarvinPA> i was about to say bouler beetle species but yes, iood species even better
14:06:37 <ChrisOelmueller> MarvinPA: inherent inacc amulet
14:06:41 <MarvinPA> you autoexplore into a hobgoblin on d:1 and die
14:06:45 <MarvinPA> but you take the hobgoblin with you!
14:06:53 <elliptic> where do you take it
14:07:00 <elliott> iood downside is that if you hit anything you die
14:07:05 <elliott> yes
14:07:15 <elliott> i actually planned to write a thing where you could play crawl as any monster
14:07:25 <elliott> but it wouldn't give you iood movement AI :(
14:07:28 <kilobyte> elliott: I mean, slowish movement, but your speed increases the more you move in a direction
14:07:35 <elliott> kilobyte: right
14:07:40 <elliott> a boulder beetle species sounds sort of interesting really
14:07:49 <elliott> sort of like charge moves
14:07:56 <kilobyte> boulder beetle can't maneouver
14:08:26 <Zannick> well, as an (a)bility, roll into a boulder in one direction
14:08:43 <elliott> i assumed you'd just start rolling if you walked too much in one direction towards an enemy
14:09:05 <elliott> probably just a plain inertia-based species would be more interesting
14:09:14 <elliott> but imo it should have some kind of affect on combat, like you get more attacks the faster you are or something
14:09:26 <Dixie> give centaurs inertia
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14:10:52 <kilobyte> Dixie: with extra damage when charging, right?
14:10:54 <Cryp71c> Would be interesting to have that sort of terrain
14:11:32 <elliott> ice
14:11:34 <elliott> make all of coc have it
14:11:38 <Cryp71c> rather than a race or god..it would make sense for users to have a sort of "inertia" on ice-terrain...you could even base it off of base speed, "punishing" fast races by sliding them more, since they weigh less but move more quickly.
14:11:54 <Cryp71c> (generally speaking)
14:11:58 <kilobyte> centaurs don't exactly weigh less
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14:12:37 <Cryp71c> Well, no..I was thinkign of spriggans, I suppose there isn't a generality regarding speed and size in crawl.
14:12:43 <kilobyte> clawed paws tend to be good on ice (as opposed to hard floor), so that's only spriggans
14:13:35 <Cryp71c> Could jsut do it off of size, or you could do it equally for all races.
14:13:43 <kilobyte> chickens are good on ice too, if anyone would go to Cocy below level 15
14:14:08 <Cryp71c> Cocy seems hard enough as it is without having to factor in semi-uncontrolable movement
14:14:21 <Cryp71c> but however you guys might apply the idea, I'm cool with.
14:15:57 <elliott> make antaeus into a boulder beetle who skids around coc:7
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14:25:56 <Eronarn> make it work like the second to last level in adom
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14:26:58 <Zannick> antaeus the ice skater
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14:39:57 <Mu_> am i dreaming or did their used to be a 'sentry' flag you could apply to monsters in vaults to make them always return to their starting position when not otherwise occupied
14:40:00 <Mu_> there
14:40:29 <Mu_> or is that what patrolling does?
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14:41:04 <elliott> I think that's patrolling, yes
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14:43:53 <Mu_> seems they still wander off with patrolling
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14:53:19 <elliott> Mu_: i think patrolling behaves weirdly and nobody knows why or something
14:53:35 <Mu_> :(
14:53:55 <elliott> but I think it's the closest you'll get to what you want
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16:23:11 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-923-g98f192f: Ensure due_abyss_rune is enterable without Ashenzari + LRD/Shatter. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/98f192ffed69
16:23:11 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-922-gdf0d4a9: Document the ev script a bit. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/df0d4a9bf363
16:26:06 <elliott> kilobyte: I don't think Debian's editor is autodetected per se -- you can select it with the alternatives system
16:26:19 <elliott> e.g. $ update-alternatives --set editor
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16:27:57 <kilobyte> elliott: doh, right, the autodetection will never trigger outside some extreme cases (busybox only...), as like everything provides "editor"
16:28:03 <kilobyte> didn't notice this line
16:30:01 <elliott> right :)
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18:50:47 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-929-g1d6be75: Block Acute Vision by temp Blurry Vision. 10(11 hours ago, 1 file, 18+ 21-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/1d6be7524525
18:50:47 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega 07* 0.12-a0-928-ga4601c7: Give wretched stars a description (and casting text) 10(4 weeks ago, 2 files, 10+ 0-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/a4601c7d91ff
18:50:47 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte 07* 0.12-a0-927-gc690a41: Allow some degrees of mutation resistance vs wretched stars. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/c690a418b99b
18:50:47 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega 07* 0.12-a0-926-ga3c5cd5: Make wretched starlight affect undead 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 13+ 7-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/a3c5cd5418e9
18:50:47 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega 07* 0.12-a0-925-g370af8b: Initial implementation of transient mutations 10(5 weeks ago, 10 files, 159+ 10-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/370af8b53783
18:50:47 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega 07* 0.12-a0-924-gcbc4122: Add Wretched Stars 10(5 weeks ago, 3 files, 37+ 0-) 13https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/cbc41225cb4b
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18:52:16 <elliott> kilobyte: btw, the mutation doesn't say "immune to further mutation" any more (since it was misleading)
18:52:27 <elliott> so I think the player is never told they will never get mutated again currently
18:53:10 <kilobyte> it's nearly totally impossible to get mut resistance to level 3, too
18:54:44 <kilobyte> you need to: 1. get level 1 of a rare mutation -- doable.  2. get level 2 of that mutation, while any addition rolls have only 33% chance but removals work 100%, 3. the final level, again beating the resistance
18:55:06 <elliott> jiyva can give it though right
18:55:50 <kilobyte> unlikely, and she'll take it back
18:56:06 <kilobyte> (unless you necromutate just at that moment)
18:57:17 <DracoOmega> Ooo...!
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18:57:30 <DracoOmega> Those commits look strangely familiar for some reason
18:57:42 <DracoOmega> :)
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19:15:22 <alefury> cool stuff :)
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20:24:39 <nu|l> I want to start contributing to DCSS but this is the first *BIG* c++ project I've ever looked at. What's a good IDE to use with this?
20:27:36 <elliott> I don't use any IDE at all when writing patches but any IDE you like generally should work just fine
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20:28:37 <nu|l> hrm, just gonna codeblock it up then. thanks
20:29:21 <alefury> you can look for implementables on mantis, or just start doing whatever you want to do
20:29:31 <alefury> in the latter case you should probably talk about it first
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20:30:46 <nu|l> Honestly just get used to navigating a big project with multiple source files. I was hoping there was a magic IDE That would point me at the right file which declared or implemented foo or bar, but I guess the old fun of just digging is there for me
20:30:59 <nu|l> I'm a Junior CS student :( sick of the school crap. Plus I love this game.
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20:31:47 <elliott> well a decent IDE should support finding definitions of classes and functions and stuff
20:31:58 <nu|l> indeed
20:32:01 <elliott> i think all the major ones support that?
20:32:06 <elliott> so maybe you just need to find the setting to flip it on
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20:32:27 <nu|l> I also need to tell it that this is a project and to sort through all the files
20:37:44 <ChrisOelmueller> being familiar with grep and similar tools can help a great deal
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20:38:31 <nu|l> and how
20:38:51 <nu|l> I've never had to import a ton of header and .c files and link everything before, fuh
20:39:20 <elliott> nu|l: that is probably a really bad idea
20:39:27 <nu|l> why
20:39:28 <elliott> nu|l: crawl has its own makefile-based build system, you should tell your IDE how to use that
20:39:36 <elliott> well because it will almost certainly screw up building it
20:39:41 <nu|l> yeah all these pissant school projects are making me look like a tard huh
20:40:13 <DracoOmega> Yeah, the makefile looks seriously complicated. I don't prevent to understand half of it
20:40:23 <DracoOmega> pretend*
20:41:09 <nu|l> and now I get to google "pls code::blocks open it and have all the paths and stuff done for me"
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20:57:56 <nu|l> holy crap codeblocks WON'T work with a makefile
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21:42:17 <nu|l> eclipse CDT works
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21:53:16 <bh> hi dev!
21:53:43 <bh> DracoOmega: have your mobs been merged?
21:54:19 <HangedMan> stars yes, starspawn no
21:54:41 <DracoOmega> What he said
21:55:07 <DracoOmega> Of course, they still don't actually spawn anywhere, but they have been merged
21:56:16 <bh> ok, cool. I'll rebase inception
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21:59:28 <nu|l> hi bh
21:59:49 <bh> what can I do for you, nu|l?
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22:00:13 <nu|l> Tremble as I say the most terrifying phrase ever. "I want to help."
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22:00:28 <bh> nu|l: with abyss stuff specifically, or generally?
22:00:43 <nu|l> I've yet to work on a project this big in C++ before, so I'm still dicking around with an IDE that can import a makefile. Or I wonder if I should just learn to love doing it one file at a time without a big fancy pants tree and stuff.
22:00:48 <bh> generally speaking I'm just a lowly peon. If it's abyssy stuff you want, the more the merrier
22:00:58 <nu|l> Well, generally. But I guess working on abyss stuff would work, especially with low level programming.
22:01:05 <bh> I just use vim :)
22:01:13 <nu|l> Yeah, see, I'm from the new generation
22:01:16 <bh> I've never found a C++ IDE good enough to use.
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22:01:26 <nu|l> I've heard people ~SING~ the praises of visual studio
22:01:29 <nu|l> then again my town is C# ville
22:01:29 <bh> Java, on the other hand, is Eclipse all the way
22:01:38 <nu|l> heh
22:01:45 <DracoOmega> I prefer Netbeans, personally :P
22:01:46 <nu|l> When I learned the magic of GENERATE MY BOILERPLATE I learned to love IDEs
22:01:59 <bh> nu|l: I've also heard great things about Visual Studio. The last time I used a C/C++ IDE was some Borland product
22:02:09 <nu|l> Then I started using the "Oh, I can see the declaration of this there, and this here, and I can follow the tree... and... oh man it's all right there"
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22:02:19 <bh> yeah, that's awesome sauce
22:02:26 <nu|l> So I just dun got wit' git all of the code for DCSS, and now i'm just in awe of how many files htere are
22:02:28 <nu|l> *there
22:02:30 <bh> The abyss has the advantage of being relatively self-contained
22:02:39 <nu|l> I think that was probably a great design choice
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22:02:47 <bh> There's some magic going on that I don't fully understand
22:02:57 <nu|l> black magic and C just work, man
22:03:06 <nu|l> "Abyssal style guide"
22:03:09 <bh> nu|l: Linley started writing crawl when I was 10 or 11. The code base has had a long time to grow up.
22:03:26 <nu|l> Heh. I've only been coding for a year so far.
22:03:34 <nu|l> I also started late. I'm 27 right now :V
22:06:50 <bh> that's fine. When I took intro CS the best student in the class (and later the best student in the department) barely knew how to use a computer
22:07:25 <Gretell> Debian builds of the trunk branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-929-g1d6be75
22:08:21 <bh> DracoOmega: how about this for a monster idea: If it sees you and it sees a monster which can't see you, it will blink the other monster closer to itself
22:09:02 <DracoOmega> I think that suffers from it appearing to merely summon monsters out of thin air, since you couldn't see them before, anyway
22:09:21 <DracoOmega> And if you can't see them, a lot of the time they may as well have not existed (unless you just broke los with it then, or something)
22:10:20 <bh> reasonable objection
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22:13:23 <nu|l> bh well I'm a Junior, in JAva, and having fun with a teacher who forgets that SUn is no more
22:13:30 <nu|l> one of his grad students went to sun-come-oracle and he sings about it
22:13:47 <nu|l> he also makes new students, including math majors, do C. In Pico. Over a ssh into the school's shell for each student.
22:13:57 <nu|l> maybe he hates us
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22:14:38 <bh> nu|l: pico? that's perverse. A good way to get started is to look at mantis and find a small bug
22:15:16 <nu|l> yep!
22:15:22 <nu|l> Nothing like watching pure mathmos want to cry
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22:16:45 <bh> I think one of the first patches I wrote was changing the behavior of vampiric weapons. Previously they caused hunger while you held them. This led to weapon swapping. My patch causes them to impose a hunger cost on wield
22:17:00 <DracoOmega> Oh? That was your doing? :P
22:17:10 <bh> Actually, we might want to revisit that behavior and make them cause hunger as they heal you. Anyone experienced have strong feelings on this?
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22:17:17 <DracoOmega> Current system seems good to me
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22:17:36 <bh> screws over blunt vampiric weapons, which are sort of silly in the first place
22:17:41 <nu|l> so you didn't use a debugger, you just stepped through by hand?
22:17:44 <elliott> bh: hunger as you heal = swapping tedium for immune stuff
22:17:50 <elliott> blunt vampiric weapons are still viable
22:18:01 <elliott> you can use animate skeleton or permafood if you have enough of it or a slow enough metabolism
22:18:06 <bh> nu|l: I use gdb
22:18:52 <bh> elliott: what do you mean by 'immune stuff'? If you only get hungry as a vampiric weapon gives you HP there should be no incentive to tedium swap
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22:19:44 <elliott> uh, stuff you can't vampiric drain?
22:19:48 <DracoOmega> Technically I think that would either make them more powerful (and they're quite powerful already) or more tedious (depending on how MUCH hunger it costs)
22:20:01 <bh> DracoOmega: I'm looking at infiniplex's city layout. It's *huge* and very well documented!
22:20:08 <bh> elliott: no HP, no hunger
22:20:17 <elliott> oh wait
22:20:21 <elliott> I don't know what I was thinking there :p
22:20:26 <bh> :-D
22:20:30 <elliott> I think the current system is nice though, it is a simple one-off cost and then you don't have to worry about it at all
22:20:37 <elliott> and it makes blunt vampiric weapons more interesting
22:20:47 <elliott> (ashenzari has the same sort of thing going on -- that's why there is that vault with animate skeleton book next to it)
22:21:09 <MarvinPA> cost on wield works pretty well, introduces a nice tradeoff
22:21:32 <DracoOmega> Yeah
22:21:47 <bh> MarvinPA: what if we made {pain} more powerful, but also made it injure you?
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22:22:39 <elliott> {pain} is already incredibly good
22:22:40 <MarvinPA> pain could get a downside without needing to be any more powerful, probably :P
22:22:47 <elliott> a dagger of pain is a really excellent weapon
22:23:04 <bh> ??pain
22:23:04 <MarvinPA> although i'm not certain it needs one so long as it is fairly hard to obtain
22:23:04 <Wenzell> pain[1/3]: L1 necro spell, exclusive to the Book of Necromancy. Inflicts 1hp non-fatal damage on the caster. Does 1d(4 + pow/5) damage, with a limit of 25 power, and bypasses AC - but checks MR and only affects monsters without life protection, or players without torment resistance.
22:23:09 <bh> ??pain brand
22:23:09 <Wenzell> pain brand[1/2]: Brand which inflicts 1d(necromancy skill) extra damage on necro+1 out of 8 successful hits. Does not affect those with rneg (demons, undead, unliving, shadow dragons, death drakes, holies). (For the record, a monster's necromancy skill is HD/2, HD if undead or demonic, 0 if mindless/animal (0.11+)).
22:23:12 <st_> it really shouldn't be guaranteed
22:23:35 <st_> I feel the same way about holy too
22:23:44 <bh> ??holy brand
22:23:44 <Wenzell> holy wrath[1/1]: Increases damage by 75% on average against undead and demons. These folks also cannot wield it. Does not hate evil creatures which are not undead or demons. This means that holy wrath is ineffective against hell knights, and some worshippers of evil gods can wield it.
22:24:04 <bh> st_: how do you think it should behave?
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22:28:10 <bh> ??acute vision
22:28:10 <Wenzell> I don't have a page labeled acute_vision in my learndb.
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22:28:28 <st_> pain? I don't know. Having a double edge brand like that could be interesting though
22:28:52 <st_> like MarvinPA said, it's okay as is if it is rare, except it is extremely common right now
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22:30:14 <bh> st_: how about holy? What if a brand ran hot-and-cold? As you kill demons it gets 'hotter' and then cools off?
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22:32:28 <st_> again that mechanic sounds interesting
22:32:56 <st_> sounds like an unrand thing though perhaps, you could increase enchantments with kills and they fade over time
22:33:51 <bh> st_: sounds like Brother of the Singing Sword. Very Troggy
22:34:04 <bh> Maul of Trog
22:34:32 <st_> could even be a regular axe brand, would work well with cleaving
22:34:53 <st_> more unique brands for weapons types would be a good thing
22:35:37 <bh> I do like what Brogue does with spears.
22:36:17 <st_> what I'd like is to replace vorpal with unique effects like that
22:36:42 <st_> since vorpal is sort of boring, but you do get scrolls so you can almost always get it if you want it
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22:38:55 <bh> What are the vorpal brands? chopping, crushing, slashing, penetrating?
22:39:05 <MarvinPA> "vorpal"
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22:39:07 <MarvinPA> :P
22:39:27 <MarvinPA> but yeah, those + slicing + maybe something else
22:39:28 <MarvinPA> piercing
22:39:51 <st_> penetration isn't vorpal, that velocity for launchers
22:40:07 <MarvinPA> oh yeah
22:41:16 <bh> ??penetrating
22:41:17 <Wenzell> I don't have a page labeled penetrating in my learndb.
22:41:20 <bh> ??penetration
22:41:20 <Wenzell> penetration[1/1]: Missiles fired from a launcher of penetration act like bolt spells and can hit several targets. Not unique to crossbows anymore, as javelins may have this brand as well.
22:41:31 <bh> ??piercing
22:41:32 <Wenzell> vorpal[1/2]: A relatively weak melee brand, increases melee weapon damage by 12.5% on average. Strong on launchers though (20% extra damage). Can be placed on any weapon but you probably should affix freezing or flaming to a melee weapon instead if you can.
22:42:16 <|amethyst> ??vorpal[2]
22:42:17 <Wenzell> vorpal[2/2]: Vorpal brands are: stabbing (knives, daggers, quick blades), slicing (swords, lajatangs, scythes), chopping (axes, other bladed polearms), crushing (quarterstaves, maces, flails), slashing (whips), piercing (spears, tridents), velocity (missile launchers)
22:42:26 <bh> st_: for chopping how about something that does more damage based on how many enemies you hit?
22:43:07 <bh> with cleaving it seems thematically consistent
22:45:26 <st_> could work. encouraging cleaving would be the point with axes, definitely
22:47:09 <bh> attaching penetrating to poke polearms would be neat. bludgeoning weapons could get.. knockback?
22:47:14 <bh> or stun?
22:48:14 <st_> those have been banded around for mace effects, not sure how much people support those effects
22:48:28 <bh> whips could entangle an opponent so a second attack never misses?
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22:50:52 <st_> for the rest of the weapon types you'd have to figure out what their thing is first, I think
22:51:08 <st_> which we sort of haven't yet
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23:42:05 <bh> hey monqy, what should we replace vorpal brands with?
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23:45:04 <evilmike> I think someone (dpeg?) mentioned swords getting sil's "flanking" move
23:45:15 <evilmike> at least that's what it sounded like
23:45:42 <bh> evilmike: flanking? Like ev denial D&D style?
23:45:47 <evilmike> no
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23:46:33 <evilmike> it's a free attack if you move from one spot to another, if both spots are adjacent to the enemy
23:46:39 <evilmike> I cant imagine this being very useful in crawl though
23:48:34 <evilmike> also, i think if all the weapons get special moves, vorpal should be some kind of souped up version of that move
23:48:44 <bh> I can imagine it be useful for pillar dancing a weak monster to escape a strong one
23:48:50 <DracoOmega> I did like that proposal (about vorpal, I mean)
23:48:57 <evilmike> like for polearms it could be reaching + penetration (kind of like brogue polearms), axes could be cleaving with less of a penalty, etc
23:51:04 <bh> ??cleaving
23:51:04 <Wenzell> cleave[1/2]: In 0.12+, axes awesomely cleave around seven spaces on attack, at the expense of nerfed damage (one less base damage for broad axes and two less for battleaxes and executioner's axes). The cleave attacks do 75% damage, and cleaving in a certain direction is blocked by solid features (but cleaving is done in both directions).
23:51:24 <st_> evilmike: yes, agreed
23:52:54 <DracoOmega> Only problem is coming up with moves for the other weapons, first :P
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23:56:44 <evilmike> maybe whips could disarm enemies. this would be annoying against the player though. roguelikes that do this always bug me because I never notice when I'm suddenly unarmed
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23:58:12 <DracoOmega> That is a point, though maybe there could be a force_more on that by default?
23:58:27 <DracoOmega> Because the move is both fitting and (in my opinion) interesting
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