00:01:13 Pre-release branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-b1-97-g2f50171 (33) 00:03:31 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11-b1-97-g2f50171 00:04:11 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-396-g2361822 (34) 00:11:44 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-396-g2361822 00:12:56 03|amethyst * r590e017fec4c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/wield.lua: Select large rocks to wield for Og/Tr with Sandblast. 00:13:18 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.11 * r6a764dd00ed2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/wield.lua: Select large rocks to wield for Og/Tr with Sandblast. 00:23:40 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:40:52 evilmike: did you make it so I can add implementable on mantis? 00:41:13 I can't do that, but if you post something, I can edit it so it's an implementable 00:41:24 k 00:41:44 -!- naalis has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 00:44:49 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 00:47:30 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 01:07:02 Abyss Procedural Level Generators (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6184) by brendan 01:07:04 evilmike: done 01:07:39 alright, it's an implementable now 01:08:01 your wikipedia link has an extra ) in it 01:08:45 -!- Tinen has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:09:37 drr 01:09:41 also, maybe you could make the branch more clear, eg link to this: http://www.gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commits/inception 01:10:49 it would probably help to point it out at the start. like, tell people to checkout the branch and build it 01:12:00 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:12:09 -!- wjchen has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:11 do you still plan on doing the "warped dungeon sections" thing you mentioned in the c-r-d email? I'm just curious 01:12:15 gosh, the dcss tracker is chatty 01:12:23 evilmike: that will be a layout generator 01:12:36 I see 01:12:47 some of the time the abyss should be warped melty dungeons, other times it should be pure chaos 01:12:58 by chatty do you mean email spam? There's a settings page with a bunch of checkboxes, I recommend unchecking every one of them 01:13:00 I'm of the opinion that Abyss:1 should have more 'melty dungeon' than Abyss:5 01:13:15 that makes sense 01:13:16 yes. I've never received e-mail from it before 01:13:32 also, its good to have branches where the layout/features change a bit as you go deeper 01:13:39 huh -- they're all unchecked 01:13:42 oh definitely 01:14:10 right now this is mostly done by a couple lair subbranches. the Vaults overhaul also does this 01:15:03 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:04 I need to define blending layouts, like min and max. Min would consume two (or more layouts) and take the least dense output from all of them (ie. floor) 01:17:11 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:17:26 Max would take two (or more) layouts and take the *most* dense output (metal) 01:19:02 am I the only `Updater` on mantis? 01:26:37 -!- Chozo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:01 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:36:02 -!- PsyMar has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:36:06 -!- KKCryptic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:38:05 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:40:03 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:41:04 -!- xnavy2 has quit [Quit: xnavy2] 01:47:41 there are others 01:47:51 @??ice fiend 01:47:52 Ice Fiend (161) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 76-122 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Dam: 2512(cold:18-53), 2512(cold:18-53) | 05demonic, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(288), 12cold+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 3036 | Sp: b.cold (3d27), torment symbol | Sz: Large | Int: high. 01:48:03 @??blizzard demon 01:48:03 blizzard demon (122) | Spd: 11 | HD: 12 | HP: 50-86 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Dam: 20, 20 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(144), 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 1464 | Sp: b.lightning (3d18), freezing cloud (2d22), airstrike (0-34), b.cold (3d21) | Sz: Large | Int: high. 01:49:16 looking for abyssal monsters? 01:49:27 I'm making an exit vault with three exits 01:49:37 one icey, one fiery, one something'y 01:49:53 ah 01:50:13 plus a lugonu altar for good measure. I'm also thinking the monsters should be behind closed doors with a similarly type cloud generator. 01:50:42 i'd say you probably don't want 1's for that. monsters start getting the banish spell in the midgame, so midgame enemies are the best here 01:51:13 or at least stuff that can be handled at that level. a blizzard demon is quite suitable, I think 01:51:28 What are all the 2's? Blizzard Demon, Cacodemon, Green Death 01:51:36 balrug, reaper, shadow demon 01:51:46 couple of ice devils would also be reasonable 01:52:30 other 2s: hellion, tormentor 01:52:34 I could make one room for each 2 and then have it pick three at random 01:52:52 not all 2's are equal 01:52:56 -!- Camicio has quit [] 01:53:24 from scariest to least scary? 01:53:43 a single tormentor is a fairly easy enemy. shadow demons are only dangerous if shadow creatures is dangerous. balrugs are (I think) the deadliest in terms of kills 01:54:27 don't hellions have more kills? 01:54:36 and range makes a big difference too. reapers are melee-only, but hit like trucks. hellions are very dangerous at range, but they can be killed fast 01:54:49 hmm, hellions might be deadlier 01:54:52 !lg * killer=hellion 01:54:53 999. araganzar the Sorcerer (L27 SpWz), worshipper of Ashenzari, blasted by a hellion (burst of hellfire) in Zig:20 on 2012-09-06, with 928154 points after 181890 turns and 24:53:46. 01:54:55 !lg * killer=balrug 01:54:56 592. digshake the Conqueror (L19 MiFi), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a balrug (divine providence) in the Abyss on 2012-09-06, with 228913 points after 65682 turns and 6:50:04. 01:55:11 !lg * place=pan s=killer 01:55:11 Zig v. Abyss isn't a fair comparison :) 01:55:12 761 games for * (place=pan): 93x Cerebov, 83x an Executioner, 73x a hellion, 48x a Balrug, 46x an Ice Fiend, 39x , 36x Gloorx Vloq, 26x a smoke demon, 20x a Fiend, 17x a Brimstone Fiend, 17x a Pit Fiend, 16x a Shadow Fiend, 12x Ignacio, 12x Lom Lobon, 10x a tentacled monstrosity, 10x a daeva, 9x a Hell Sentinel, 9x a large abomination, 7x a pearl dragon, 6x a Blue Death, 5x a Green Death, 5x a rea... 01:55:20 wow 01:55:28 huh, for some reason I thought hellions were after balrugs in pan 01:55:34 Are hellions twice as common in pan than ice fiends? 01:55:36 hellions are rather deadly 01:56:28 poor green deaths 01:59:42 -!- MPR| has quit [Changing host] 01:59:49 I'm off to bed, I'll figure this out. Hopefully someone will take a stab at my branch :-D 01:59:51 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleepy] 01:59:52 !lg * place=abyss s=killer 01:59:54 23647 games for * (place=abyss): 2271x a smoke demon, 2111x , 1454x a small abomination, 1396x an ufetubus, 1361x a white imp, 1200x a large abomination, 1008x a skeletal warrior, 864x a lemure, 605x a ynoxinul, 577x a hellwing, 577x an Executioner, 489x an orange demon, 431x a midge, 394x a sixfirhy, 375x an iron imp, 339x a neqoxec, 333x an efreet, 292x an abomination, 285x a hellion, 239x a bal... 02:00:03 hellion pretty high on that list already 02:01:39 I'm glad to see those 4's, 5's and lesser 3's on that list 02:01:56 the abyss is probably the only place in the game where those monsters really "work", not counting vaults 02:02:04 !lg * place=abyss cv=0.10 xl>10 s=ckiller 02:02:05 846 games for * (place=abyss cv=0.10 xl>10): 80x a smoke demon, 56x a large abomination, 54x a skeletal warrior, 50x an Executioner, 28x a tentacled monstrosity, 26x a hellion, 24x burning, 23x a hellwing, 22x a sixfirhy, 20x a lorocyproca, 20x a blizzard demon, 19x a balrug, 18x a lich, 16x a small abomination, 15x a bone dragon, 13x a daeva, 11x a Green Death, 11x quitting, 10x a cacodemon, 10x ... 02:02:12 -!- MPR has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:02:34 !lg * place=abyss s=killer x=avg(xl) 02:02:35 23647 games for * (place=abyss): SilVaris' ghost [27], a runed short sword of draining [27], a glaive of speed [26], Cerebov [24], an orc warrior [24], 6x a stone giant [22.67], 2x a trident [21], 9x a Brimstone Fiend [20.78], a hand axe of pain [20], 5x an ettin [19.6], 17x a Hell Sentinel [18.76], 4x lich [18], Histuphus' ghost [18], 2x a beast [18], thevalrus' ghost [18], a glowing spiked flail... 02:02:38 oops 02:02:42 !lg * place=abyss s=killer x=avg(xl) o=N 02:02:42 23647 games for * (place=abyss): 2271x a smoke demon [4.51], 2111x [3.97], 1454x a small abomination [2.94], 1396x an ufetubus [1.88], 1361x a white imp [1.62], 1200x a large abomination [4.67], 1008x a skeletal warrior [6.05], 864x a lemure [1.58], 605x a ynoxinul [3.25], 577x a hellwing [3.81], 577x an Executioner [12.29], 489x an orange demon [2.32], 431x a midge [1.52], 394x a sixfirhy [4.42]... 02:02:52 oh, lorocyprocas, the forgotten 2 02:02:55 not very impressive average XL there 02:03:20 Did the addition of antimagic not help the loros? 02:03:32 it did not help them, no 02:04:16 since even if they hit you they quite likely won't drain much MP if you have decent AC 02:04:28 Their main power is making you hit yourself with ice storm 02:04:31 lorocyproca (022) | Spd: 10 | HD: 12 | HP: 46-84 | AC/EV: 10/12 | Dam: 2512(antimagic), 25 | 05demonic, 10doors, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(112), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1177 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 02:04:31 %??lorocyproca 02:04:41 -!- MPR| has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:04:43 they don't even have antimagic on both attacks? lame 02:05:07 reaper (152) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 56-96 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Dam: 45 | 05demonic, 10items, 10doors, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1553 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 02:05:07 %?? reaper 02:05:11 The problem with monster antimagic is that the people who it's supposed to counter generally stay out of melee range anyway. 02:05:17 well, loros are invisible 02:05:36 and not everyone in pan has see invisible (tends to be something you equip when the situation demands it) 02:05:47 it isn't like casty chars never get hit by melee by anything 02:06:05 if that were actually the case then something would be quite wrong with crawl 02:07:28 maybe instead of two attacks they should have one strong antimagic attack 02:07:36 and a bit of an hd buff (could keep hp the same though)? 02:08:01 -!- ddubois has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:08:03 evilmike: one 40 damage antimagic attack sounds reasonable to me 02:08:46 lorocyproca (022) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 59-97 | AC/EV: 10/12 | Dam: 2512(antimagic), 25 | 05demonic, 10doors, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(130), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1545 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 02:08:46 %??lorocyproca hd:14 02:08:59 also HD to 14 looks good, yeah 02:09:05 the HP boost is fine 02:09:23 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 02:13:12 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:05 03evilmike * rb8a108c08b1c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Buff lorocyprocas. 02:26:53 -!- Adder has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:27:19 -!- ChrisOelmueller has quit [Quit: Out at the horizon, out near the burnished edge of the world, who are these visitors standing...] 02:27:40 -!- ChrisOelmueller has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:50 -!- ChrisOelmueller is now known as Guest57143 02:40:19 -!- _dd has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:40:50 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:44:04 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:44:08 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:31 -!- _dd is now known as Guest78634 02:46:41 -!- evilmike has quit [] 02:50:55 -!- Guest78634 has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:52:33 -!- _dd_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:14 -!- wasd22 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:15 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:13:46 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:19:01 Bottled efreet. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6185) by white_noise 03:19:25 -!- link_108 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:26:35 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 03:27:14 -!- maha has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120824154833]] 03:35:29 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:51 -!- link_108 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:43:45 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:47:18 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:47:46 -!- Tolias has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:55:08 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:56:35 -!- Codrus|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:58:43 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:07 -!- whig has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:37 -!- Nilsyn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:06:22 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:10:14 -!- Silurio has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:10:33 about abyss kill stats, there has been some people who were trying to startscum the AK's starting abyss 04:13:29 play a MfAK with a spear and try to kill small abominations from deep water 04:13:46 !lg * abyss class=ak xl<8 04:13:47 10480. bugeyedmutant the Skirmisher (L1 DsAK), worshipper of Lugonu, slain by a skeletal warrior (a +0,+0 morningstar) in the Abyss on 2012-09-07, with 20 points after 22 turns and 0:00:20. 04:13:51 !lg * abyss class!=ak xl<8 04:13:52 7299. tomuxmon the Archer (L7 CeHu), slain by a griffon skeleton in the Abyss on 2012-09-06, with 767 points after 2563 turns and 0:28:20. 04:13:53 wow 04:13:55 then escape the abyss and start the dungeon at XL 10 or something 04:14:27 Deimos started a thread on the tavern about that: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5339 04:14:55 that would explain why there are so many low level deaths there 04:15:43 it's not very effective. People were reporting about 30% success at escaping alive at a decent level 04:16:52 I'm not sure if someting needs to be done about it 04:17:16 buffing abomination AI to animal would make them retreat (they are plant-level now) 04:17:42 elliptic: ^ 04:18:18 galehar: it isn't just aboms, also zombies and other junk 04:18:59 yeah, abom gives good xp i think 04:19:07 If you have only a modest chance of making it a few levels above starting, is that really so different than in the normal dungeon where most players have... only a modest chance of making it a few levels above starting 04:19:08 we could make no monsters and no items generate in starting abyss 04:19:29 or something 04:19:47 you could just have them start in D if it comes to that 04:20:46 galehar: anyway I'm not sure anything needs to be done, but I wouldn't change abom intelligence just to make this strategy a bit less effective 04:21:33 if we are going to worry about this, then we should actually fix things to eliminate getting any xp in starting abyss somehow 04:22:18 alright. I'm not sure anything needs to be done anyway 04:22:50 I guess serious crawlers mostly worry about win rate so they don't consider that an exploit 04:28:33 isn't there something about eliminating liquids from abyss anyway in the new abyss branch? 04:29:06 good point 04:29:17 I don't think liquids are specifically being eliminated, but I think the map generators aren't placing them as much as the old one 04:29:19 that or greatly reduce, I don't remember 04:29:35 Since they're different ones in the first place 04:30:13 "Remove liquids from the abyss." 04:31:33 Huh. I actually personally think it could use SOME. I don't know if the individual sectional generators were supposed to be given leeway to use it 04:31:57 Although I do recall talk about having giant bottomless chasms or seas of chaos, instead 04:33:57 unrelated thingy: every time i see a morgue i wish action counts were enabled by default 04:34:07 anyway I think we should just wait and see whether it is still an issue in the new abyss... I just read through the tavern thread and it doesn't sound that bad there 04:54:25 -!- rufford has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.12-a0-388-g4062d21 05:00:22 -!- rkd2 has quit [] 05:09:11 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:11:08 -!- Syrio has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:14:15 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:14:30 -!- barbs has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:32:05 -!- Grildrak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:57:18 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:01:31 -!- DracoOmega has quit [] 06:07:22 -!- naalis has quit [Client Quit] 06:07:54 -!- white_noise has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:12:52 -!- ark____ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:13:07 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:13:51 -!- fooobaar has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:17 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:18 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:09 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:42:20 -!- buki has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:45:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:43 -!- fooobaar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:00:45 -!- SirVaulterScoff has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:58 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:08:04 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:12:10 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:56 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:39 -!- bracc has quit [Client Quit] 07:26:51 -!- fourfall has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:21 -!- freefall has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:29:42 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:53 -!- freefall has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:15 -!- fourfall has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:36:30 -!- PsyMar has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:37:36 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:43:27 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:19 -!- thened has quit [Quit: thened] 07:56:51 -!- Amplicon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:56:57 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:57:28 -!- angus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:14 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05:25 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:09:55 -!- pantaril has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:18 03dolorous * rc8d19eaf1e60 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Add formatting fix. 08:26:18 -!- Guest57143 is now known as ChrisOelmueller 08:29:01 -!- domi_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31:26 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:35:02 -!- _dd_ is now known as _dd 08:38:01 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:09 -!- One-Eyed has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:41:49 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48:16 -!- vwzzz has quit [Client Quit] 08:48:31 dpeg: hi! 08:48:44 dpeg: cleave proposal on the wiki 08:48:57 although there's still a lot of questions 08:49:46 -!- remyroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:51:17 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:56 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:57:47 galehar: quickly in, will comment 08:59:43 hmm. it would be nice if stats were more relevant, but i think polearm reaching always happening is nice 09:00:21 even for that there was talk of having a reduced hit-rate when reaching, though, to limit kiting 09:00:57 galehar: I think it's best if attacks only go on an enemy. 09:01:04 Even if this loses some moves. 09:01:13 also, if cleaving reduces damage and only the initial target takes full damage, the task (for the player and for autofight) becomes to maximize damage, not number of targets 09:01:45 this would adress the problem of players wanting to attack empty squares to maximize targets: its better to attack one target with 100% damage than to attack two targets with 50% damage each 09:02:14 so i think i agree with dpeg, on the condition that cleaving doesnt do full damage 09:02:20 -!- bh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:04 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:22 getting autofight priority right with cleaving will be difficult any way it is implemented, because it currently prioritizes damaged targets 09:03:32 and there would be lots of those with cleaving 09:04:05 dpeg: the main problem if you limit cleave to targetting an enemy is that you cannot use cleave against an invisible enemy, were it would make a lot of sense 09:04:07 -!- bh_ has quit [Changing host] 09:04:07 -!- bh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:04:11 -!- bh_ is now known as bh 09:04:15 best to implement it somehow, see how people use it, and then update autofight accordingly if possible 09:05:23 i like the idea that additional attacks does reduced damage. Could be proportional to str. 09:05:38 mhh, i guess always cleaving is okay too 09:05:43 galehar: hm, didn't think of that 09:05:58 people would mostly just use it against invis enemies because they would want to maximize damage, not targets, but thats fine 09:06:15 if they dont want to cleave, too bad, should have chosen a different weapon 09:06:53 alefury: I mean if there only an invisible enemy. If you have to target one square to try to hit the unseen horror, it's bad 09:07:03 i know what you mean 09:07:40 if cleave does reduced damage against additional targets, autofight should probably not be changed at all. 09:07:40 im just saying if damage to the additionally hit enemies is significantly less than 100%, it would only make sense to attack empty space when youre trying to hit something invisible 09:07:43 which is good 09:07:57 it's almost always better to take down the most dangerous monster first, no matte what 09:08:40 well, some change might be needed, optimal cleaving should at least be used to break ties 09:09:04 also, the large number of damaged enemies would cause problems i think 09:09:13 classical horror scenario: ynoxinul 09:09:30 currently, lets say an ufetubus reaches you first, so it is targeted by autofight and damaged 09:10:03 now the ynoxinul steps next to you. autofight prioritizes the damaged ufetubus over the higher-hd ynoxinul (i think autofight uses hd). 09:10:24 when the ufetubus is dead, autofight now prioritizes the full-health ynoxinul over the remaining full-health ufetubi 09:10:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 09:11:07 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:11:09 if some of them were damaged by cleaving, and damaged proportionally more than the ynoxinul because of their lower maxhp, autofight might attack another ufetubus instead of the ynoxinul that you actually want to kill 09:11:40 well, maybe you shouldn't always use autofight :) 09:11:43 standard argument is of course "if you care what gets attacked, dont use autofight, so there is no problem" 09:12:08 but an ynoxinul is fairly nonthreatening in pan, and you want autofight to get rid of it without too much fuss 09:12:33 anyway, its not a major problem, if it is one at all, so it can be solved much later 09:12:40 it's a big disagreement between elliptic and kilobyte. elliptic thinks autofight should be predictable while kilobyte think it should be smarter 09:13:03 the current implementation (favoring damaged) is predictable 09:13:12 well, the problem is that making it smart is much more work than making it predictable 09:13:29 he, had that back then about autoexplore: Darshan put emphasis on predictable 09:13:30 and if it is not that smart, and not predictable, its worse than dumb and predictable 09:13:44 but the point is probable to take down enemies one after the other, and you're gave a good example on how cleaving breaks it 09:14:36 well, autofight just used to attack clockwise starting at the top i think, and ynoxinuls were really annoying then if they were top left from you :) 09:14:50 dpeg: I certainly don't see why autoexplore needs to be predictable. Efficiency should be the only concern. 09:15:10 but i dont think they would be that problematic, because cleaving would be very good against summon spam 09:15:35 I don't have a problem with having the 2 implementations and have a smart_autofight option which uses weights to priorize targets 09:15:44 autofight can be improved with cleaving in mind much later, i dont think cleaving would break it in any serious way 09:16:48 anyway: 1: agree on a design. 2: implement it. 3: update autofight 09:17:03 I don't think autofight concerns should get in the way of the design. 09:17:27 03edlothiol * r4f71410478bb 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ (process_handler.py terminal.py): Webtiles: Make it possible to disable ttyrec recording. 09:17:55 imo: 1. agree, 2. implement, 3. test, 4. iterate, 5. test, ...., $. improve autofight 09:18:27 it can really be put off a long time, until someone feels like doing it 09:18:28 alefury: +1. 09:19:21 edlothiol: wtf? 09:19:51 <|amethyst> probably related to csn not really have room for ttyrecs 09:19:59 <|amethyst> s/have/having/ 09:20:25 oh, its a server option, not a player option! 09:20:33 that makes sense of course! 09:24:41 am I going to run into any trouble making a subvault wrap around another subvault? 09:32:06 exactly 09:34:11 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:42:00 bh: trouble maybe, but afaik it should generally work 09:42:16 alefury: k -- I'm making a concentric circles vault 09:42:38 -!- buppy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:43:22 -!- elliott has joined ##crawl-dev 09:43:30 -!- bh has quit [Quit: work'n'stuff] 09:44:03 -!- elliott has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:18 there may be some related bug btw, something about subvaults not being given back to the pool if placing the main vault fails 09:44:29 not sure if that turned out to be what happened, and if it is fixed or not 09:45:21 hangedman would probably know if you should expect trouble 09:46:10 -!- elliott has joined ##crawl-dev 09:53:49 -!- Lightli has 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reset by peer] 13:01:28 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20120421074340]] 13:02:07 -!- CIA-101 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:04:23 -!- MPR has quit [] 13:07:47 -!- CIA-67 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:08:08 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:16 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:10 -!- Lawman has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:22:04 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:25 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:24:49 -!- CIA-67 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:05 -!- erisdiscordia has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:31:38 -!- stenno has quit [Changing host] 13:33:45 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:37:03 either some dev broke something, or i did... 13:37:21 some enemies using unused tiles 13:38:41 -!- stenno has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:43 galehar, alefury: I don't think cleave + autofight will be a problem at all (this isn't like sidestep, which would be a problem for autofight) 13:38:44 like wights look like garden gnomes 13:39:52 a bunch of tiles are offset apparently 13:40:59 -!- stenno has quit [Changing host] 13:41:00 yeah, garden gnomes are right next to wights in player.png 13:41:14 alefury: Sounds like one of the dc-foo.txt files didn't get updated correctly before a compile. 13:41:24 its really annoying though 13:41:43 i compiled this myself, right after a git pull 13:41:44 Sadly, it's a very easy mistake to make. 13:42:08 alefury: Hell, I recently uploaded a *binary* that had that problem. 13:42:26 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: ThrashIRC v2.6 sic populo comunicated] 13:42:33 edlothiol: can you fix it? its annoying. 13:42:44 <|amethyst> is this on CSZO? 13:43:19 <|amethyst> oh, locally compiled 13:43:36 <|amethyst> I guess the makefile is busted again 13:44:05 well, maybe its on my end, ill try make clean 13:44:29 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:39 but if elliot is seeing it too its probably not on my end :/ 13:44:54 <|amethyst> I've seen at least twice in the past few weeks a situation where someone rebuilt but the tiledef-* didn't get regenerated 13:47:06 |amethyst: someone was complaining about tiles issues on CSZO, too 13:47:18 But man 13:47:27 Having to do make clean is even worse than touching enum.h 13:49:50 dtsund: i dont use ccache because i have no idea how to set it up (windows), so all compiles are hell 13:51:12 <|amethyst> elliptic: hm 13:51:40 Hm. All my Windows compiles are hell too, but that's just because I have to alternate between make and make TILES=y... 13:54:05 fixed by make clean 14:01:55 with ontoclasm on the team, tiles are likely to be added more often 14:02:09 would be good to fix the dependencies so we don't have to make clean all the time 14:04:03 galehar: commented on cleave on the wiki 14:04:18 elliptic: thanks! 14:07:19 the idea of reduced damage was only for the additional attacks. The main one (on the targeted cell) would always be full damage 14:08:03 elliptic: one of the ideas behind weapon moves was to split up the dependence of combat output from the various parameters. In the extreme case, stats would not affect speed, accuracy and damage (that'd be left to base type, enchantment, skills) and instead cover chance (or effectivity) of moves. 14:08:39 dpeg: not all weapon have moves for now 14:09:17 galehar: yes, it is a very long term thing 14:09:32 so guys 14:09:46 But I believe it'd be good to sort out the miss between input and output 14:09:46 galehar: well, it still makes things more complicated IMO, but that's better than what I thought 14:09:46 Hm, I just saw a wizard on dashify forced to fight TRJ without Haste, because the glow cost would've prevented him from spamming Fire Storm 14:09:48 back later 14:09:48 elliptic: if we say the additional attacks are not as good as the main one, you think it's better that it only has a chance to trigger rather than reduced damage or accuracy? 14:09:51 * dtsund wonders if this means he's doing something right 14:09:54 what if cleave just gave a bonus based on number of adjacent enemies 14:10:40 galehar: I think so 14:10:51 LexAckson: I saw that's what you implemented. I don't understand why, I really don't like this idea 14:11:10 assuming the goal is to encourage fighting in the open 14:11:35 I think it's fine for cleave to be powerful, since you have to abandon corridors (at least in part) for it to work 14:11:37 dpeg: I think splitting up things like that will be very hard, because the weapon moves will surely not all be of equal significance 14:11:38 elliptic: well, we can also start simple and make all the attacks normal ones 14:11:40 cleave has to be better at that than fighting in a tunnel 14:11:54 If you're hitting three enemies at once, you're getting hit by three enemies at once 14:12:00 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 14:12:05 right 14:12:21 even if you are hitting all adjacent enemies at once 14:12:29 Ceteris paribus, it's still better to retreat to a corridor 14:12:35 it is riskier to be fighting many enemies at once 14:12:35 * elliott is a fan of the 8-direction, 100% chance, full cleaving system 14:12:37 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:44 Even if the cleave attacks are full-strength. 14:12:46 so there should be some reward 14:12:47 it's simplest and avoids all these cleaving-an-empty-space issues, and fighting in the open needs all the buff it can get 14:12:53 LexAckson: it has a great advantage: you kill enemies faster. Make better use of buffs, especially berserk 14:13:32 but you might get hit several times in one turn also 14:13:56 also, there are tactical considerations: if a priest is smiting you in the back, taking enemies down one by one in a corridor isn't the best thing to do 14:15:31 my personal preference at the moment is for something like a 50% chance of making normal attacks all around you (still stopped by walls, possibly not stopped by allies) 14:16:07 elliptic: so you don't like the half-circle idea? 14:16:09 stopping by walls is good, allies should also stop or it would be to tricky to use smoothly 14:16:10 (I think being stopped by walls is important for 8-way so that it doesn't do anything in corridors) 14:16:55 LexAckson: huh? I don't mean it should hit your allies, just that it should go past them and continue hitting stuff... 14:16:58 it should attack as many enemies as possible in a contiguous arc that includes the chosen attack direction, stopping on walls and allies 14:17:36 if it goes by walls too, then although less realistic, it means you never have to attack empty space or whatever (because the square you choose to attack is actually irrelevant, it's just a single "attack" move) 14:17:48 LexAckson: I don't like allies making it less good 14:17:52 (the downside being the fact that you can use it while surrounded on both sides in a corridor, I think that's been brought up before) 14:18:39 elliott: with elliptic's proposal, you'd never target empty space either 14:18:46 galehar: I don't really like the half-circle, yeah... I feel that it is extra complication for not that much gain, since I imagine most of the time it gets used will be against 2-4 enemies that are all within a half-circle anyway 14:18:50 elliptic: well, okay, it's probably fine to skip allies too 14:18:55 blocked by wall is obviously important 14:18:59 galehar: right 14:19:08 I would prefer a 100% chance to a 50% chance, personally 14:19:17 that's just how I'd do it though 14:20:08 100% chance 8-way will be hard to balance I think unless the extra attacks do less damage... which could happen 14:20:29 elliptic: assuming your design (full circle, blocked by wall, goes through allies, 50% chance to trigger), do you think we need to nerf the axes to compensate? 14:20:37 anything less would not be good enough to make open fighting optimal 14:20:37 elliptic: well, you do take proportionately more damage for the extra damage you do, but the simplest thing would seem to be simply lowering axe damage a bit 14:20:51 (as in, and keeping the cleave attacks the same) 14:21:16 50% chance for an attack or 100% chance for a half-damage attack gives the same average damage :) 14:21:17 galehar: yes, of course, since this would be a strict buff aside from that 14:21:30 galehar: except half-damage suffers from AC issues 14:21:36 elliptic: what kind of nerf? reduce base damage? 14:22:07 if the damage is halved pre-AC (which makes the most sense), then "half-damage" is much worse than 50% chance of normal attack 14:22:10 the idea that cleave is less efficient when surrounded by high AC monsters kinda make sense 14:22:34 if the idea is to give all of the weapons cool powers eventually, then there is no need to nerf axes 14:23:21 LexAckson: the idea is to give axes cleaving now. Giving all weapons cool powers isn't a realistic short term goal. 14:23:23 could go with +1 delay instead of -1 damage 14:23:41 galehar: yes, reduce base damage... with 50% chance of 8-way, I'd think that just 0-2 points of base damage would be enough (less for some axes than others) 14:23:49 or mix it, +delay for the small ones, -1 damage for the big ones 14:23:54 LexAckson: uh, what? that would just be power creep 14:24:04 hand axe and war axe don't need a nerf at all 14:24:45 broad axe -1, battle axe and exec axe -2 maybe 14:25:16 maybe just -1 for those to err on the overpowered side of things 14:25:46 it could be higher than 50%, too... that was just a suggestion 14:25:53 well, sounds like a plan 14:25:55 HO axes apt was just buffed too, wasn't it? 14:25:59 yes 14:26:01 so i'd say they can take a hit 14:26:02 * galehar start taking notes 14:26:20 wouldn't it be better to nerf the axe damage more and make the cleave guaranteed, for simplicity? 14:26:39 elliott: no, because we don't want axes to be awful against single enemies 14:27:08 elliptic: same for reduced damage, could be higher than 50% 14:27:23 elliptic: it seems reasonable for a cleaving weapon to be not so good against single enemies, since being good against multiple enemies is its defining trait, but fair enough 14:27:28 the question is: do we want cleave to be equally efficient against all kind of enemies? 14:27:56 yes, keep it simple 14:27:58 something like guaranteed 8-way cleave (blocked by walls) and damage for the extra attacks multiplied by 75% or something could be fine 14:28:30 that's a good proposal 14:28:36 what about making it depend on strength? 50-90% damage? 14:28:39 what if the malus was limited by axes skill? 14:28:41 I think so too 14:28:41 I just think that guaranteed 8-way + full damage extra attacks is bad, either making it not guaranteed or making the extra attacks lower damage is acceptable to me 14:28:55 alefury: as I've explained, I don't think that adding in extra dependences is a good idea 14:29:01 galehar: would it be fun to have to worry about whether cleaving would be very good in the current situatoin or whether you need to do the boring old corridor fight? it would be annoying if you had to worry about things like that with polearm reaching imo 14:29:13 oh, guess i should read your wiki response :) 14:29:39 alefury: basically just makes balancing harder for no real gain... such things can be added in later if we want 14:30:05 just look at the constriction fiasco... so many dependences 14:30:06 making abilities depend on skills is better because players have more control over skills 14:30:24 LexAckson: and we don't want cleave to be awful early game, when skills are low 14:30:54 right, so the skill will only make the damage malus for the extra attacks smaller 14:31:01 you will always get the attacks 14:31:26 it seems very weird for corridor-fighting to be great early on but for fighting out in the open to get better and better at higher skill 14:31:26 so 100% 8-dir with 75% damage for the extra attacks, stopped by walls but not by allies 14:31:32 not from a realism/flavour perspective but from a gameplay perspective 14:31:55 compensated by -1 base damage for some axes, maybe even -2 for some high-end ones 14:32:10 elliptic: constriction fiasco? Do you still think it's bad or were you refering to the old implementation? 14:32:19 galehar: the old one, the current one is fine :) 14:32:26 good :) 14:32:28 i like constriction on my current naga 14:32:49 lets me kill things nicely :) 14:34:48 LexAckson: I just see no advantage to making things scale like that... why make cleave better late game than early game? I agree cleave wouldn't be useless or anything early game, but it would be weaker, and for no reason 14:35:10 just to be clear, there's no direction? It goes both way from the targetted monster until the first wall? 14:35:22 elliptic: it would get better because the player chose to invest xp in axes 14:35:45 it would start as strong as you wanted it to be 75% 14:36:04 LexAckson: well, players will invest in axes anyway if they want to kill monsters with axes 14:36:14 galehar: yeah... the wall-blocking is mainly just to prevent it from being good in corridors or checkerboard vaults or whatever 14:36:35 LexAckson: the player already gets plenty of reward for axes skill 14:37:34 I expect players to come saying it's not realistic that the monster in the middle of the swing is taking the most damage but whatever 14:38:00 gameplay-wise it's fine 14:39:16 elliptic: while we're talking about fighting, can we discuss accuracy, speed and stats? Not in details, just what needs to be changed or tweaked in your opinion. 14:39:40 okay, that's true, however i'd like to point out that if we make powers depend on anything, it should be skills because the player can adapt skills more easily than stats 14:40:39 LexAckson: well, there's this idea of removing the stabbing skill and just using the short blade skill instead 14:41:20 ++ 14:41:22 galehar: yep, sounds good to me 14:41:27 LexAckson: not everything needs to be in the players control. its fine that some things are better for a MiBe than for a DEFE you can still compensate with stats from levelups 14:41:40 (don't make stabbing bonus for non-short blades depend on sbl skill, of course!) 14:41:48 and equipment of course 14:41:52 (I guess it could just be removed (RIP clubstabbing)) 14:42:06 good riddance, non-sbl stabbing is dumb anyway 14:42:16 elliott: stabbing from non-short blades would be removed sure 14:42:22 alefury: you just don't appreciate the fine art of the clubstab 14:42:27 it's quite irrelevant yeah 14:42:29 alefury: if weapon styles are going to define playstyle, it would be good to let players adapt them to the game 14:42:35 galehar: for accuracy, I think that it would be good to rethink the formulas... the problem currently is that there is a pretty small range of accuracy values that matter 14:42:38 galehar: what would you do about felids? 14:42:49 their claws are long blades for stabbing purposes (and affected by stabbing skill) 14:42:59 elliott: oh, good point 14:43:09 you could just rewrite the formula using the UC skill 14:43:18 using the bonuses long blades got when they could stab 14:43:21 galehar: having accuracy 0 is a lot worse than having slightly positive accuracy, and then quickly extra accuracy becomes very weak after that 14:43:36 (or just give felids the normal short-blade-level stabbing using UC skill) 14:43:37 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:43:48 (feen buff) 14:43:52 alefury: if would be cool if a dex fighter could find a great axe and then decide to take up the skill 14:43:58 elliptic: but is the problem how accuracy vs EV is rolled or how the stats depend on skills? 14:44:14 alefury: rather than having that decision be made from the start 14:44:18 galehar: it should be smoother, so that accuracy bonuses are more significant in general... currently an accuracy bonus is mainly good if your accuracy is quite close to 0 14:44:38 galehar: yeah, I think it is more a problem how accuracy vs EV is rolled 14:44:42 elliptic: well, it could be a stepdown of skill 14:45:14 LexAckson: currently, weapon choice is almost completely arbitrary. you choose one at game start and stick with it, unless you have a lot of exp you dont need. having it chosen for you really is no loss. 14:46:21 galehar: I blame test_hit and the surrounding functions, not the dependence on skill/stats 14:47:00 alefury: if the weapon manuvers are different enough, there would be good reason to want more than one skill 14:47:14 -!- faze has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:47:27 galehar: for speed, I think that there are a few possibilities that would likely all be fine... the important thing is just getting rid of the min delay weapon skill breakpoint. it will all require rebalancing anyway 14:48:22 what do you think about the speed formula I put on the wiki? 14:48:25 galehar: for stats, I actually think that the current model for how str/dex affect combat probably isn't bad, but that their impact on accuracy/damage could be at least doubled, maybe more 14:48:26 alefury: it would be lame to be restricted in that case 14:48:53 i agree with elliptic 14:49:16 also, note that the str bonus is rolled, then added to the potential damage which is then rolled again 14:49:42 buffing the effect of stats could be a way to balance the speed change (which is likely to be a serious nerf) 14:49:47 -!- faze has quit [Client Quit] 14:49:57 a simple way to fix stats to acc/dmg would be remove the first roll 14:50:05 on average doubling their impact 14:52:43 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:52:49 galehar: the speed formula there looks okay as a first try at least 14:53:23 elliptic: do you think having linear speed instead of linear delay is a good idea? 14:53:30 i'd like to comment on cleaving again: think about how often you would be fighting multiple enemies and there would be no buffs or smiters or whatever, probably a good majority of the time 14:53:41 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:58 in that case, players would sill be better of in tunnels most of the time 14:54:45 LexAckson: the problem with getting a bonus for fighting many opponents: summon small mammals, aggro them, enjoy your bonus 14:54:50 galehar: I think so 14:55:02 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:19 galehar: but you just wasted time and probably skill points and the spaces the animals take up are not enemy spaces 14:55:45 galehar: that's not going to be a viable strategy, you would get at most one or two better attacks out of it 14:56:19 galehar: i'm not saying there has to be a bonus, just that there should be some way to get to the point where it is never worse to be in the open 14:56:24 LexAckson: you usually don't have a simple choice "do I fight in corridor or in open space"... there is usually some cost in getting to a corridor, if it is possible at all 14:56:51 it isn't like whenever monsters appear, you are prompted by the game "Fight in corridor? (Y/N)" 14:57:15 ok, so here is the plan: I'm putting the cleave design on the wiki to let other devs comment on it. Then, this can go into trunk. 14:57:17 usually there are a couple of steps inbetween you and monster, and you can just have it chase you to a tunnel 14:57:20 LexAckson: what you are suggesting makes no sense at all 14:57:28 where would the bonus come from? 14:57:37 elliptic: if you can think of a way to improve test_hit, this can be tested in trunk too. 14:57:40 hey, im using an axe and there are some dudes around, now i can do super damage to one of them! 14:57:41 big swings carry more momentum 14:58:12 again, i'm just saying it should get to 100% damage somehow 14:58:12 so why not just always make big swings? 14:58:18 then, the speed change should probably be tested in a branch. Along with the stat boost. 14:58:26 galehar: sounds good (re: cleaving) 14:58:27 LexAckson: just wait and see how it works out maybe? 14:58:38 then, we'll tweak formulae and weapon stats until it seems ok 14:58:38 * elliott is interested in suggestions to buff accuracy for selfish purposes 14:58:42 if its too weak it can be buffed. its still a huge bonus, so i wouldnt worry for now 14:59:11 even if fighting in the open with cleaving is not optimal, people will still like it for convenience 14:59:23 also many times you really can't get to a corridor 14:59:24 elliptic: okay, if you say that Dex/Str can be meaningful within combat, then I'm fine. The way I started the constriction formula ("fiasco", it still hurts) was to make stats explicitly (i.e. in new ways) relevant. That may not be needed then. 14:59:51 elliptic: what do you think of making stats coarser? E.g. remove all odd values? 14:59:57 it seems obvious at this point that in melee only fights you will be better off in tunnels 15:00:08 LexAckson: no, it's not nearly as clear cut 15:00:11 What will cleaving work with/ 15:00:12 -!- kwel01 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:00:19 (smiters, summoners, buffs) 15:00:40 often the corridor will be better, as usual, but certainly not always 15:00:43 dpeg: right, i was talking about most fights that are only melee guys 15:00:53 dpeg: str is still very much relevant for constriction! 15:00:53 -!- ZRN has quit [] 15:01:23 alefury: if cleave is only a convenience, people will not use it in hard fights 15:01:33 galehar: yes, but it may have been an awkward design from the start. 15:01:56 So basically cleaving makes axes even better 15:01:59 I LIKE this change 15:01:59 LexAckson: you don't seem to get the point, but hopefully trunk will tell soon :) 15:02:01 dpeg: it was! and was simplified :) 15:02:22 galehar: what's your opinion on stat halving? 15:02:25 Would it be too bad on Int? 15:02:27 LexAckson: dammit please stop bitching, let people try it in trunk, and have some faith in the devs 15:02:41 wow 15:02:46 dpeg: I'm not sure I get it. What's the proposal? 15:02:47 dpeg: sorry to call it a fiasco... the problem wasn't that str was involved (it still is), but that the formula was hard to understand or tweak... and it all worked out well in the end I think :) 15:02:56 im only using these harsh words because you currently are really annoying 15:03:42 galehar: version 1: double all stat boni from randarts, level-ups increases stats by 2. Version 2: coarser stats, so that future 10 is what 20 is now. 15:03:44 dpeg: making stats coarser could be fine... I don't see anything against it at first thought, but could you explain what you see the advantages as being? 15:04:09 anyways, i would be happy to code the approved design, did someone put it up somewhere 15:04:20 if we halved stats then we could make them capped at 27 I guess ;) 15:04:30 elliptic: same as with aptitudes: if a point of 1 Dex or 1 Str is not meaningful, but stats themselves actually do something, then coarsening improves the situation 15:04:35 -!- con_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:05:00 LexAckson: thanks! I'm writing it up 15:05:02 Then how do we get Fire Storm to max power then? 15:05:14 Lightli: Huh? There'd be no gameplay change. 15:05:16 max Spellcasting/schools? 15:05:32 yes, as ever 15:05:44 you can get fire storm to 200 power with <= 54 int, I am pretty sure 15:05:52 so capping it at 27 would be irrelevant for that purpose 15:05:58 (I think you can get it hungerless too?) 15:06:30 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:31 I like version 2. We halve the starting stats, but double the effect. Level up and various bonus are unchanged (so they are actually doubled) 15:06:44 galehar: that's a pretty huge buff 15:07:11 isn't what dpeg was saying? 15:07:23 I assumed that this proposal would involve halving the boni as well... 15:07:41 if it is to have "no gameplay change" 15:07:58 I think the idea was to buff some effects. Maybe not all. 15:08:09 Yeah, I just realized that 15:08:14 effect-buffing should happen separately 15:08:36 well, what about level up gain? 15:08:38 could just make it so you only get a stat increase half the time as before 15:08:43 can't gain 0.5 15:08:45 but keep the bonus on things like rings and randarts the same (to buff theM) 15:08:47 *them 15:08:53 galehar: it happens half as often, I assume? 15:09:03 elliptic: I wouldn't mind a little gameplay change. For example, the value of the level-up stat increase would double, fine with me. 15:09:18 dpeg: not fine with me, that's a huge buff 15:09:31 giving you the equivalent of 54 levels of stat increases seems quite imbalancing 15:09:33 cannot take Int on half of them then 15:09:34 +9 to the stat of your choice, effectively, plus more for racial boost 15:09:47 even for str or dex that is huge 15:09:53 elliptic: I only meant that 3n level choices, actually 15:10:00 even so, +9 is a lot 15:10:13 because I think we're currently throwing players a red herring 15:10:27 they ponder on ages about the stat, but it doesn't matter so much 15:10:48 i like how the reaction to int being the only meaningful stat is cannot take Int on half of them then 15:10:52 dpeg: I'm on board with halving values if it has no gameplay effect, but please don't try to bundle in huge balance changes into this... 15:10:53 instead of balancing the others :) 15:11:03 +9 dex is huge as well 15:11:29 I think it matters, if you pick str every level-up as a "pure caster" you are going to have a pretty unhappy time with your spells 15:11:45 of course that's an extreme 15:12:26 dpeg: basically I agree that rescaling things would be good, but I see no reason to throw in huge buffs at the same time. If we want to give players huge buffs, we can discuss it separately 15:13:07 elliptic: yes, you are right. Coarser scale first, then changes. 15:13:13 As we did with aptitudes. 15:14:09 on the other hand, you get less choices and less often 15:14:28 would you gain stats every 5 levels? 15:14:41 every 6, presumably? 15:14:51 fewer choices is good if they are more significant choices, I think 15:15:07 every 6 is a nerf then 15:15:15 only 4 gains 15:15:20 and later 15:15:43 well, we have to choose a direction to round in... it could be every 5 instead, or every 6 starting at 3 15:15:49 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:15:56 why not third the effect of stats instead? :p 15:16:07 we'll also have to reschedule racial stat gains 15:16:09 then cap it at 27 (~ 81 in practice) 15:16:15 elliott: because then they won't possibly get to 27? :P 15:16:26 elliptic: clearly make there be 270 XLs 15:16:28 "81 in practice" haha 15:16:56 ??stat gain[2] 15:16:57 stat gain[2/2]: Ce sd/4 | DD si/4 | DE i/4 | Dg sid/2 | Dr sid/4 | Ds sid/4 | Fe id/5 | Gh s/5 | Ha d/5 | HE id/3 | HO s/5 | Hu sid/4 | Ko sd/5 | Mf sid/5 | Mi sd/4 | Mu none | Na sid/4 | Og s/3 | Op sid/5 | SE id/4 | Sp id/5 | Te sid/4 | Tr s/3 | Vp none 15:17:34 we'd have to reschedule all of this, obviously there will be some slight (one stat point) changes, that's unavoidable 15:18:31 or we could make everything smoother and give a <100% chance of gaining a stat point each levelup... could be a good idea anyway 15:19:04 so if you got really unlucky you could get 0 stat gains? 15:19:07 new life goal 15:19:28 elliott: well, they wouldn't have to be independent 15:19:41 could schedule N stat gains at the start, like how Ds mutations are scheduled 15:19:56 it would be kind of cool for tstat gains to be surprising, I guess 15:20:04 instead of knowing exactly when you'll get them and being able to plan that 15:20:04 especially if they are larger 15:20:11 (and also it not being immediately obvious that they're on a fixed 3-level schedule) 15:20:27 so ++ to halving stats and scheduling them randomly to be roughly every 6 levels ahead of time 15:20:30 well, I think the player-chosen ones should probably be on a fixed schedule 15:20:46 oh, I just noticed that if you're next to a single wall, it doesn't block cleaving (since it goes the other way) 15:20:47 oh, I was assuming both would be randomised 15:20:53 the racial ones being on a randomized schedule seems good to me though 15:20:54 galehar: yeah 15:20:56 the player-chosen ones were what I found interesting 15:21:12 you won't be able to rely on getting exactly the stat gain you want when you want it, and they'll be fairly rare and surprising 15:21:21 elliott: it would make it easier to miss the prompt though 15:21:27 maybe not a big deal, I don't know 15:21:36 (and the same number as now can be achieved without choosing a specific ugly rounding) 15:21:44 elliptic: add a force_more on the message before the prompt? 15:21:54 you'd have to press S, I or D to miss it entirely anyway 15:22:09 well, then you quickly hit space to clear the more and i to check inventory or something 15:22:19 IMO the stat gains should require an uppercase input anyway 15:22:24 like important [Y/N] prompts 15:22:35 probably, yeah, at least if they become twice as large and rarer 15:22:38 don't say saving the game or dropping the last item :P 15:22:43 or whatever I does, I forget 15:23:24 yes they should be capital letters 15:23:24 it might be important that you could end up without your first stat gain at all for six levels... probably not that relevant though 15:23:42 but it could be a mummy nerf if you get unlucky with the schedule :P 15:24:58 I still think that having fixed stat gain at levels 6n+3 sounds good to me, since it means you get your last one at 27 (and it is a slight player stat buff for those who want those) 15:25:05 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 15:27:28 about cleave, should you be able to disable it with ctrl+dir (I think not because you couldn't use it against invisible monsters and it sucks) 15:27:55 so things that would need to be changed: chosen stat gains, racial stat gains, stat draining effects, equipment stat boosts, ?? 15:28:48 mutations? 15:28:56 I guess they can afford to be buffed :) 15:29:24 galehar: I don't think letting people disable their weapon move is ever going to be a good idea. And there are only a few edge situations where you might want to do so (pain mirror, jellies, hostile chaff you are using as shields) 15:29:41 elliptic: oh, I'd fix the schedule to always give the last one at 27 15:30:14 elliptic: yeah, I agree 15:30:18 oh, yes, mutations should still be +/- 1 of course... but the number of gain stat potions given out in that bailey should be halved 15:30:33 I think it's good for weapon moves to have drawbacks 15:31:13 also boosts like might/agility/zin/chei need halving I guess 15:31:13 LexAckson: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:fighting_reform&#axes 15:31:20 (I'd be tempted to say axes should stop on (or even attack?) allies, even, rather than skipping them... not sure though, wanting to be surrounded by summons makes cleave unappealing anyway) 15:31:22 the new design is at the bottom of the section 15:31:54 elliptic: I forsee cries of "chei nerf" :) 15:31:56 galehar: thanks 15:32:06 elliott: it could be a buff! (but probably not) 15:32:38 well it has to be either a nerf or a buff. 15 is odd 15:32:46 clearly don't halve Chei's stat increases to buff Chei 15:33:00 but we'll buff it on the other side by increasing the effect of stats on fighting :) 15:33:26 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:51 oh, also the armour strength requirement would need adjusting, though it could use that anyway 15:36:34 either by making it a less sharp breakpoint or by making the formula 2n + c instead of 3n 15:42:30 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:42:55 -!- stenno is now known as stennoK 15:43:08 -!- Deathmic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:49 -!- BrightCloud is now known as BrightKloud 15:45:16 -!- lexackson has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:30 -!- BrightKloud is now known as BrightCloud 15:47:32 -!- stennoK is now known as stenno 15:47:59 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 15:51:00 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:53 -!- dpeg__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:57:04 What is it with angband.pl tonight? :( 15:57:18 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 15:59:24 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:59:33 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:17 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:07:56 what about egos? they give +3 16:07:57 galehar: regarding the choice between "full damage, not always" and "always hit, but reduced damage" for cleaving: I think the former is easier to grasp for players. 16:07:57 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:25 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:08:32 alefury: they could give +2 or just be left alone 16:09:35 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:43 -!- Predelnik has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:09:45 alefury, elliott: still on stats? 16:09:51 yeah 16:10:41 the same for randarts? 16:10:48 and unrands? 16:11:01 ChrisOelmueller: the idea was to leave randart bonuses the same, I think 16:11:04 to intentionally buff them 16:11:18 since they tend to be underwhelming right now 16:11:19 then i'd also leave the egos alone 16:11:31 right 16:11:44 +6 to a stat is quite major, but then something like boots of running are major too I guess 16:11:45 yes, that was part of my suggestion: to make the randart stat buffs and the player stat choice more meaningful 16:12:16 Int+6 would be superb, for instance 16:12:21 i think elliptic's intention was to leave stuff the same as far as possible, and do any buffing or nerfing seperately 16:12:21 (Int+3 in the new system) 16:12:35 and that is probably a good idea 16:12:52 -!- Palyth_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:12:52 elliott: there's no problem with restrictign the range for stat rings afterwards (say +2,+3,+4) 16:13:18 alefury: right, I wouldn't bother halving randart stat increases though, buffing those seems uncontroversial 16:13:38 (and being able to get Int+2 and Int+4 artefacts but not Int+3 is weird) 16:13:50 (well, I guess the range could just be doubled, but) 16:13:55 well, boots of int+10 dex+8 would be superb for some chars 16:13:57 er, wait, they'd be halved not doubled 16:14:12 yes... 16:14:24 elliott: again, buffing stat boosts from items is a separate issue 16:14:34 personally I don't think they need much boost if any 16:14:48 int boosts on randarts are already quite good 16:14:58 so are dex boosts 16:15:06 elliptic: so the real problem is Str? 16:15:15 really, even something like +4 I am usually happy to find, if I don't have anything else good 16:15:18 and with randarts, that's often the case 16:15:24 +4 str I meant 16:15:35 ego gloves would be +2 after this change I'd say, they shoudn't be better than that 16:15:46 Constriction, carrying capacity and heavier javelins don't mean too much. 16:15:56 oh oyu're talking about egos, never mind 16:15:58 oh, one fairly major thing: stat drains 16:16:01 dpeg__: yes, and it is a problem with Str, not with the size of stat boosts on items 16:16:14 theres a bunch of those, and many of them are 1 point 16:16:17 or 1dx 16:16:37 elliptic: do you think it's sensible to try to go for Str effects outside of melee damage (which is what I did for a long time, probably misguided). 16:16:54 also sustab means 1 -> 0 16:16:55 dpeg__: well, Str is quite good for ranged combat already 16:17:01 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:17:05 elliptic: for carrying stuff? 16:17:05 so both stat drains and sustab would be stronger 16:17:08 or for damage? 16:17:12 damage 16:17:13 dpeg__: you'll probably like to hear this. I am used +str items before so I could wear heavier armour early on (and then boost it as I level up, so I can dump the str item) 16:17:19 also carrying stuff is always convenient 16:17:21 I only did that once, though 16:17:24 alefury: could just half the chance 16:17:43 I have been happy to find strength rings on early CPA/GDA chars before 16:17:43 evilmike: indeed, I do like to hear that :) 16:18:01 evilmike: but I am not sure what people think of the Str thing on armours 16:18:15 the Str thing on armours needs improvement in two ways: 16:18:30 1) it shouldn't be such a sharp breakpoint for spellcasters 16:18:34 The formula is really crude, but like all my formulas, it was only intended to be a first approximation :( 16:18:38 dpeg__: I don't like how it goes in multiples of 3, and the way are armour system works, the str requirement fails for the higher-tier armours (aka the dragon ones) 16:18:53 2) the requirement for fire dragon armour and such should be higher 16:18:54 * dpeg__ 's first approximations got unchanged into the game. 16:19:00 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:12 It's good that dragon armours are superior to mundane armours, but the str requirements are *much* lower 16:19:14 elliptic: so you think it could be improved with tweaking? 16:19:22 either by making it a less sharp breakpoint or by making the formula 2n + c instead of 3n 16:19:23 I think changing the formula to 2n+6 or some such would help with (2) 16:19:33 hm, that makes me happy 16:19:44 what's n? ev penalty, like it uses now? 16:19:47 (1) is a little trickier to address but should be possible 16:19:49 evilmike: yeah 16:20:19 I guess a problem with 2n+6 is that it is strange for robe/leather 16:20:20 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:20:25 so probably need something more complicated 16:20:37 btw, is anyone up for writing a ##crawl-dev digest from tomorrow until some day of their choosing? 16:20:37 and really there shouldn't be a magical strength number at all 16:20:40 having less than 6 str isn't exactly pleasant anyway 16:20:56 alefury: how many days have you covered so far? might as well make it 7 16:20:57 because today is the last day ill be covering 16:21:00 ??aevp 16:21:00 aevp[1/2]: Adjusted body armour evasion penalty. Affects spell success, melee accuracy. Its value is [base_penalty + max(0, 3*base_penalty - str)] * [45 - armour_skill]/45. 16:21:22 its going to be 6, because ill be leaving for a conference the day after tomorrow, so cant write it on sunday 16:21:24 alefury: alright, I will start keeping notes tomorrow. Please say *when* you stop though, because of time zones and such 16:21:34 maybe we should just use the official logs for that 16:21:36 really I think that formula just needs to be changed to something reasonable that doesn't have a "max" in it :P 16:21:37 !cheers alefury 16:21:39 * Wenzell slides a cask of scotch across the bar to alefury, on the house. 16:21:41 !cheers evilmike 16:21:42 * Wenzell slides a briefcase full of cognac across the bar to evilmike, on the house. 16:21:48 ill be handling everything that will be in todays log on s-z.org 16:21:48 ok 16:21:49 dpeg__: it was a pretty good first approximation, just not ideal :) 16:22:03 I'm only doing this for a week though, someone else has to do the next one, or I'll burn out again 16:22:39 i can see why 16:22:41 evilmike: I can fully relate. No promises to do digests, though. c-r-d and unintended, but actual Crawl work keep bogging me down otherwise. 16:22:46 backlogged 2 days :( 16:24:09 also, you somehow started doing this just when activity in this channel spiked 16:24:13 oh, i might be covering 7 days after all, i started on 1.9. :) 16:24:26 I am happy about the conciliatory farewell for John Attea, but that wasn't planned either. 16:25:01 evilmike: can you add yourself to ??digest for reference? 16:25:17 ??digest 16:25:17 digest[1/1]: alefury 01.09 - 06.09 16:25:19 -!- Tolias has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:25:35 the simplified wiki cleave proposal looks good to me, by the way 16:25:35 MarvinPA: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:25:36 !learn edit digest[1] s/06/07 16:25:36 digest[1/1]: alefury 01.09 - 07.09 16:25:46 (also hi) 16:25:49 Hi! 16:26:53 !learn add digest evilmike sept 8-14 16:26:53 digest[2/2]: evilmike sept 8-14 16:29:10 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:31:06 Didn't see that galehar updated the wiki. Looks good to me. (The advantage of 75% damage over 75% chance to hit is reduced variance, at the price of a little less visibility. Players will appreciate it that way.) 16:32:24 Btw, what are the obstacles for release and tournament? 16:33:21 for the release, the big thing seems to be the config file. I think someone is working on that, but it's not something I'm involved with so I can't say more than that 16:33:22 release: rcfile breakage; tournament: release, and cao 16:34:49 I read about the rcfile thingie somewhere but I didn't understand it. 16:34:56 <|amethyst> I'm working on that, yes... hoping to have it ready by tomorrow but it will probably need testing 16:35:06 theres a bunch of includes that you used to be able to remove 16:35:08 now you cant 16:35:20 so you are stuck with some unremovable defaults 16:35:28 <|amethyst> dpeg__: the big problem is that we have given sensible defaults to various settings, but many of those have no way to remove an entry 16:36:27 the good news is, 0.11 doesn't seem to be all that buggy. Haven't seen many crash reports lately, or talk of weird exploits (remember the <<<<< bug on 0.10.0? that was fun) 16:36:33 <|amethyst> I'm adding foo = to clear list options, making those that don't already support -= do so, and adding a warning about list_opt = value (where it used to, and will in 0.11, add to the list; but in 0.12 will reset it) 16:38:44 Click to swap to 2H weapon while wielding Shield and 1H weapon leaves player disarmed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6187) by XuaXua 16:38:44 about the armour penalty, is the idea to change only the part about str, or also the one about skill? 16:38:55 maybe they should be more closely tied together. Having high str would make your skill more effective at reducing the penalty 16:38:55 no hard breakpoint this way 16:38:55 the advantage of just using str is you can know how much you need 16:38:55 use both, and players have to calculate it 16:38:55 the skill part is working okay i think? currently you want to just wear the heaviest armor you can find that your strength will support if youre not casting any spells, which seems not super awesome, but not too bad either 16:39:00 yeah armour skill seems to work well 16:39:14 |amethyst: you mean, no way to remove an entry on a server? 16:39:41 dpeg__: even locally 16:39:55 galehar: you can edit the included files, though?! 16:40:08 not anymore. It's all commented out 16:40:16 dpeg__: yes, but you cant remove some autopickup stuff for example 16:40:16 oh, wasn't aware of that 16:42:44 -!- sacredchao has quit [Changing host] 16:42:45 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:54 well, there are some lists that are still in the file, but the point was to remove them 16:43:05 not sure why some have been removed and not others 16:43:25 -!- sacredchao is now known as stenno 16:43:30 galehar: hm, back in the day I thought they were nifty because they shortened the config file considerably without reducing functionality 16:44:45 <|amethyst> the problem with the includes was that it was very easy for them to get out of sync 16:44:54 -!- CannibalFerox has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:45:29 <|amethyst> we've had a number of bug reports that stem from someone using e.g. a 0.9 include in 0.10 16:45:43 <|amethyst> or a 0.8 include in 0.10 16:46:25 the other problem was that you couldn't edit them on servers, right? 16:46:33 |amethyst: true, on both accounts 16:47:06 <|amethyst> elliott: that too, but we haven't exactly improved that situation yet :) 16:47:08 -!- minqmay has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:25 quite the opposite :P 16:48:44 Are people using the new \ functionality? 16:49:23 some people use it. I see a lot of people speaking positively about it 16:49:41 <|amethyst> I use it all the time 16:49:48 i use it occasionally, mainly because i'm too lazy to finish rewriting my lua autopickup thing 16:49:49 good... that might take off pressure from the config file 16:49:55 -!- lorenz371 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:00 it's certainly pretty useful 16:50:05 using it, definitely helps both early and late 16:50:20 I'm using it too. It helps for curing compulsive stashing 16:50:21 I'd put it in the highlights section of the changelog, if it isn't already 16:50:24 just leave it there 16:50:28 i'd still love to see autopickup for "armour for otherwise empty slot" 16:50:33 -!- Syrio has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:50:37 but no idea whom i'd have to bother for that :o 16:50:46 <|amethyst> bother Lua about that one :) 16:50:55 i already have some lua for that somewhere 16:50:59 i've seen lua for it which didn't work for me, yeah 16:51:01 rwbarton wrote it iirc 16:51:04 should probably be one by default if it works 16:51:17 always worked for me, yeah 16:51:43 oh right it worked on its own but not when combined with other autopickup stuff (which now isn't important any longer) 16:51:43 MarvinPA: will you make sure that your lua ends up in official places afterwards? :) 16:52:15 dpeg__: if i ever get it working, yeah :P 16:52:58 ChrisOelmueller: http://pastebin.com/adzDzEWQ 16:53:11 that's what i always used 16:53:16 it would be nice to have a repository for 3rd party lua 16:53:52 galehar: there's settings/advanced_optioneering.txt which i think was sort of intended for things like that 16:54:09 currently only contains a lua prompt for exiting labs 16:54:24 a wiki sounds like the right format for something like that 16:54:25 it should have that thing which changes your colour based on your skills 16:54:28 well, having it outside the game release us from the burden of maintaining it 16:55:11 alefury: good idea, maybe the dev wiki could hold that 16:55:45 does it share login with mantis and tavern? 16:55:55 I'll make a tavern post. Maybe xuaxua will do it :) 16:56:12 so snow can upload his bugged auto_butcher script 16:56:55 another one that should go on there: that script that makes the z/Z prompts sane 16:57:17 if they are so insane, how about fixing them in the actual game? 16:57:25 they work for me 16:57:33 i dont really see the problem either 16:57:50 having stuff like this on the wiki is a really good idea 16:58:04 that colour-based-on-skills thing is cute but the lua is so huge I'd feel awful using it 16:58:09 ++ to making it a built-in option :p 16:58:13 alefury: apparently some people are ok with printing 4 messages whenever you try to cast+target a spell 16:58:30 oh, you mean that. yes, thats dumb 16:58:43 i thought you mean "no monster in sight, use Z" 16:58:44 evilmike: which lines do you get rid of? Or is it that they show up in Ctrl-P? 16:59:45 I'd get rid of the two "help" messages it prints each time (you can get the info if you press '?') 16:59:45 dpeg__: i think they get purged after they stop being relevant, not ignored 17:00:01 those messages could show up in hints mode, but in a real game they are just spam 17:00:03 in marvinparc i mean 17:00:17 or at least some do 17:00:24 also, the "spell quiver" stuff is weird, that is also worth muting 17:00:34 because you otherwise get stuff like this when you try to cast a spell: 17:00:37 Casting: Magic Dart 17:00:39 Aiming: Slow 17:00:40 Always remember that you folks are power users :) 17:01:01 evilmike: printing the spell is very important for me. I got Pender to do that in Brogue, as well. 17:01:36 http://pastebin.com/V8ZBwMHe 17:01:46 it should print the name of the spell you're actually casting 17:01:59 i feel like there's probably a sensible middle ground between those two 17:02:22 MarvinPA: thank you, I understand 17:02:45 yeah, his version is what I use 17:02:58 I also swap the z and Z keys 17:03:04 for me, since it is possible to re-cast combat spells with z.. or z Enter Enter, I don't use macros much anymore. 17:03:29 -!- Jaxy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:04:38 lovelylum2020 (L15 HOHe) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1135 failed. (D:17) 17:05:00 lovelylum2020 (L15 HOHe) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1135 failed. (D:17) 17:05:13 yeah, lots of it is totally unnecessary for me since i never use z enter to recast things 17:05:43 There was a vault with an offensive amout of fruit, I believe sultana. Is that right? 17:05:44 i wouldn't push for the minimal version to become default or anything, i'm just very glad that it's customisable :P 17:05:47 -!- Qwertycoatl has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:06:18 dpeg__: yes 17:06:28 evilmike: okay, will purge now 17:06:30 I dont know what the max possible is but I got 98 once 17:06:56 MarvinPA: oh, absolutely. I am collecting some bit of "advanced interface" information, that I'd like to put somewhere. You only need half (or even less) of the interface to start crawling, the rest is for convenience. Would be good to explain that somewhere. 17:07:06 Your stuff should be mentioned there as well. 17:07:26 MarvinPA: "Cast which spell? " 17:07:33 "Aiming: spell (press '?' for help)" 17:08:06 That last bit isn't even necessary, since ? tends to work in most places 17:08:46 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:09:25 98 sultanas? 17:09:25 dtsund: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:09:25 !messages 17:09:26 (1/1) One-Eyed said (1h 11m 3s ago): Thanks a lot! 17:10:28 evilmike: is the problem that ITEM: sultana places a stack? 17:11:34 dpeg__: "sultana" by itself places a stack, no need to specify quantity 17:11:52 "sultana q:3" should produce 3 sultanas, but mabe there is a bug causing it to place 3 stacks? 17:12:03 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:12:33 evilmike: I think the problem is that some vaults use "sultana" oftentimes rather than "sultana q:3" 17:12:52 the vault maker probably didn't realize they come in stacks by default 17:13:06 <|amethyst> sultana q:3 works fine with &% anyway 17:13:37 hmm, but actually, the sultana spam vault might have just been placing "sultana", but on a lot of squares 17:13:46 evilmike: yes, exactly 17:14:51 roderic_nine_men_s_morris has a chance to place 9 stacks of sultanas 17:15:30 should just be q:1, presumably 17:15:58 just did that 17:16:05 -!- urthmover has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:16:08 he has $ q:1 even 17:17:04 -!- One-Eyed has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:17:13 grep says that the's only placement without q:antity, apart from fedhas_garden.des which I won't touch 17:17:20 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:17:28 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:17:29 -!- Tinen has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:17:55 galahar: how's the Android build going? 17:17:57 <|amethyst> there's also roderic_three_in_a_row 17:18:16 |amethyst: yes, got that one too 17:19:02 <|amethyst> I think the fedhas thing should use q:1 as well 17:19:15 <|amethyst> the messages imply that it's supposed to be a single sultana 17:19:21 <|amethyst> if fruits==1 then 17:19:21 <|amethyst> crawl.mpr("A fruit falls from the tree!") 17:19:21 <|amethyst> end 17:19:28 <|amethyst> that happens if you get one stack of sultanas 17:19:52 not that a sultana could fall from a tree :) 17:19:52 <|amethyst> heh 17:20:07 it could be a very tall tree! 17:20:12 <3 17:20:18 <|amethyst> or a strawberry or (technically) a banana 17:20:24 crawl is somewhat confused as to what a sultana is 17:20:42 the description says "A humble raisin". I've always thought sultanas were a type of small grape 17:20:43 evilmike: perhaps Linley only ever read about them! 17:21:04 this could be some weird australian thing 17:21:13 |amethyst: okay, so I'll q:1-ify the Fedhas vault as well then 17:21:38 03dpeg * r8f65e10ebe4c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_features.des: Sultana reduction 17:21:46 <|amethyst> evilmike: hm, I was thinking the other way around 17:21:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultana_(grape) says In some countries, especially Commonwealth countries, it is also the name given to the raisin made from it 17:22:06 ah 17:22:39 that explains it 17:22:49 don't chokos only spawn singularly anyway 17:23:15 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:38 It's not really a commonwealth thing, I'm in canada and more familliar with the US terminology 17:24:08 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24:13 <|amethyst> I'm from the US and don't hear "sultana" used very often at all 17:24:26 <|amethyst> the grapes are "Thompson seedless" and the raisins are just "raisins" 17:24:26 I am doing q:1 for pear, apple, apricot, orange, banana, rambutan, lychee -- those are all which come in stacks? 17:24:48 I know the word means a type of grape, but I can't I've heard people use it before 17:25:28 <|amethyst> dpeg__: all food other than rations 17:25:45 <|amethyst> dpeg__: strawberries, grapes, and sultanas have large stacks 17:25:54 so including snozzcumber and choko then 17:26:27 in Germany, I get the impression that someone (industry? trade?) introduce new fruits on a large scale, for example we got introduce to the Macadamia nut 17:27:07 -!- Camicio has quit [] 17:28:06 03dpeg * r46a8e28e1265 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/altar/fedhas_garden.des: Fedhas altar: single fruits 17:28:08 <|amethyst> it's still next to impossible to find currants over here 17:28:50 <|amethyst> you can occasionally find currant-flavoured things, or currant jelly, in the "international" sections of grocery stores 17:29:27 Sultanas have always meant raisin to me (though it seems a somewhat antiquated term around here) 17:29:38 But I have a big bag in the cupboard that says 'sultana raisins' on them 17:30:03 -!- anele has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:54 oh, 1/80 for random2(3) extra any non-ration food 17:30:58 -!- fooobaar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:31:09 what 17:31:25 erm, not extra, just the stack itself 17:31:27 http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc#l2581 17:31:57 sounds kind of low to worry about but I guess being thorough with the vaults is safer 17:32:51 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:47 HangedMan: if I understand |amethyst correctly, the messages make more sense with single items anyway. 17:35:19 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:35:32 fair enough 17:35:49 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36:24 -!- scrubnub_ has quit [Quit: Goodbye] 17:38:12 late here 17:38:15 -!- dpeg__ has quit [Quit: nights] 17:39:29 frogbotherer: oh, you there 17:39:37 yep 17:39:40 I just sent you a message 17:40:06 the font install now but doesn't load 17:40:07 -!- wheals has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:24 New branch created: dungeon-tiles-by-depth (1 commit) 17:40:28 i don't understand how you've had so many problems with the build :( 17:40:34 -!- erisdiscordia has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:40:43 for me it's just ./build.sh and it works 17:40:59 and everything's in git somewhere 17:41:10 which SDK are you using? 17:42:01 android-14 17:42:05 i might rebase my SDL tweaks off of pelya's latest, in case there's some bugfix or other that'll make things better 17:42:40 I'm going to push the branch to origin so you can have a look at it 17:43:06 ontoclasm: any opinion on white_noise's dungeon tiles from #6106? I put them in a branch (git pull && git checkout dungeon-tiles-by-depth) 17:43:17 right, that's the target API, but the actual SDK i downloaded from google is r16-linux and they're up to r20.0.03 now 17:43:30 yes please! i'll take a look :) 17:43:46 i like them - sort of unsure about the deep parts being green, but overall they look good 17:43:51 -!- fooobaar has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:44:02 20.0.3 17:44:02 some might stand out too much so they'd need really low weights 17:44:31 i'll update the SDK too and see if i have the same problems 17:45:00 ontoclasm: ok, then I'll just merge them 17:45:26 we can tweak weights afterwards 17:47:14 -!- scummos has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:49 now, I can't look at those torches without thinking about poor yurik and real time animations :) 17:48:07 but yeah, those tiles are really nice 17:48:40 frogbotherer: I've pushed the branch 17:48:50 brilliant - i'll take a look 17:49:38 how difficult would it actually be to decouple the tile refresh from taking turns anyway? i read that article too :) 17:49:56 -!- kats has quit [Quit: Enforcing the norm provides a low-cost way to fake sincerity, to signal that one complies, not as an opportunist seeking approval, but as a true believer.] 17:50:06 03edlothiol * r77ca476af904 10/crawl-ref/source/ (111 files in 5 dirs): white_noise's dungeon tile variations by depth (#6106). 17:50:35 New branch created: android (1 commit) 17:51:20 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 17:51:45 I'm not convinced real-time animations would be good if the only animated thing are torches 17:51:50 frogbotherer: I haven't really looked into it, but it might not be so hard. blue popups are kinda real time 17:52:13 edlothiol: that would be just a start. What about idle animations? :) 17:52:14 -!- Pthing has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:52:29 don't forget the Xom altar too :D 17:52:53 galehar: yeah, but someone would have to make them ;) 17:53:21 well, some of our contributors are quite prolific... 17:53:22 I guess it would be good to have the real-time animations so that someone is motivated to make more animations 17:54:11 there should be some plan for what should be animated and what shouldnt 17:54:44 i think it would be very distracting if just a few animated things were put into the nonmoving dungeon 17:55:48 yeah 17:55:57 when i worked on wesnoth that was kind of a problem 17:55:59 111 files in 5 dirs 17:56:16 if some dudes have idle frames and others don't it makes the ones without look weird 17:56:34 and crawl has like 3 times as many units as wesnoth 17:56:46 it seems OK as long as just scenery is animated 17:56:51 yeah 17:56:55 i.e. only a torch on the wall or whatever, no actual dudes 17:57:02 I'd still consider it distracting, but then I consider tiles distracting... 17:57:06 lets make the orb of zot the only real-time animated thing in the whole dungeon 17:57:09 i'd be fine with torches animating 17:57:17 and the orb, hah 17:57:29 make the orb HD 17:57:37 make it vector so even if you zoom in tiles it's smooth 17:57:42 let's make it 3D! 17:57:43 heck, have it 3D 17:57:44 yes 17:57:55 also have it make noise the closer you get to it 17:58:09 and when you pick it up a procedurally-generated cutscene plays involving your character picking it up 17:58:10 pick it up, sudden FMV cutscene 17:58:20 damn you, i'm too slow 17:58:23 look at this synergy, I think we are brainstorming 17:59:36 okay, i'll have a look at that branch when i get back 17:59:38 cheers 17:59:41 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:00:03 you need stereoscopic glass for the orb run 18:00:09 * galehar sleeps 18:03:04 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 18:06:08 03evilmike 07new_vaults_layout * re432ea9b31a5 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/vaults_rooms.des: A few edits to glass-using Vaults subvaults. 18:08:28 haha 18:10:31 -!- dalisclock has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:12:47 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:25:09 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:25:51 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:28:12 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 18:28:14 -!- Dixbert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:07 -!- rkd2 has quit [] 18:30:47 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:32:13 -!- stenno has quit [Changing host] 18:32:41 -!- Amplicon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:33:15 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:43:01 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:44:56 -!- Oddtwang has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:07 03evilmike * r58ccbffacfa6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (28 files in 7 dirs): Merge branch 'new_vaults_layout' 18:52:56 -!- BlackSheep has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:46 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-421-g58ccbff (34) 18:55:51 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:57:55 -!- KKCryptic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:59:09 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00:47 well-timed merge 19:01:30 heh yeah 19:01:37 now I'm closely watching the current games list 19:04:03 -!- lexackson has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:07 -!- vidiny has quit [Quit: In the time it takes for a woman to get ready, the weather is almost guaranteed to change.] 19:05:25 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:07:41 i think |amethyst triggered that update 19:07:51 probably, I saw his wizmode game 19:07:56 <|amethyst> yeah, that was a manual update :) 19:08:02 V:3 and V:4 looked really good 19:08:10 you're not allowed to say you were the first person to play through it 19:08:12 so with the shortened V -- to not make people run into unexpected ambushes -- how about making the stairs into branch ends blue like those that lead out of the dungeon? 19:08:16 <|amethyst> btw, all devs can trigger updates at http://dobrazupa.org/rebuild 19:08:17 V:1 and V:2 looked a little more weirdly-shaped and empty 19:08:32 maybe just chance of the generator though 19:08:54 |amethyst: is it ok to use that for new features? I figured that's just there for important fixes and such 19:08:59 chrisoelmueller: runed staircases should be lightblue or something to avoid overlap, obviously 19:09:09 mmh 19:09:10 runed staircases 19:09:24 ChrisOelmueller: no monsters in the V:$ ambush start next to you. going back up is a completely safe move 19:09:34 they get a turn after you go down, don't they 19:09:34 and if you wait long enough (and you probably will) they'll be asleep next time you visit 19:09:42 I forget the exact timing of staircase use :( 19:09:46 <|amethyst> evilmike: well, don't go doing it after every commit or I'll have tons of versions lying around 19:09:55 heh 19:10:13 <|amethyst> (currently 4.4 GiB of binaries, compared to 11 GiB of ttyrecs) 19:10:16 elliott: the level is designed in a way that the ambush serves as a warning. You can gtfo and be perfectly safe 19:10:30 wow 19:10:45 those old binaries are needed for people playing old versions, I guess? 19:10:51 evilmike: mm, I thought the ambush got enough time to act to move adjacent to you, but I was misremembering how it was done 19:10:59 <|amethyst> yup... those are only the ones that actually have saves 19:11:05 stuff doesn't act the first time you enter a level 19:11:19 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:36 <|amethyst> at some point I'll probably consolidate some of those old old versions into the last version before the major bump 19:12:23 <|amethyst> (4.4 GiB in 55 versions) 19:12:59 -!- link_108 has left ##crawl-dev 19:13:00 I think a bigger trap with this change is that I increased the absdepth of the branch by 3, but only moved it one level deeper in D. Vaults:1 is D:20 difficulty, and the deepest the branch can show up is D:20 19:13:33 V:1 didn't look very crowded in 1 of 1 levels i've seen 19:13:44 evilmike: at least it's not basically identical to D :P 19:13:44 well, the new layout is really several layouts 19:13:56 some flavours of it can be crowded, others are more like the regular city levels 19:13:59 (in monster set, I mean) 19:14:02 <|amethyst> more CSZO stats: 2 GiB in crawl-master (includes saves, doc/, dat/, settings/, and webserver/game_data) 19:14:07 <|amethyst> 736 MiB of morgues 19:14:18 only 2 gigs of saves? 19:14:21 elliott: yeah. also, the way it is now guarantees you won't enter the branch and be met with the same monster set, but easier 19:14:27 it's always going to be the same difficulty or a bit harder 19:14:59 I think people will learn to shed their existing expectations when they see it doesn't look much like Vaults did before now 19:15:04 |amethyst: are ttyrecs in there 19:15:07 -!- xnavy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:17 Wensley: <|amethyst> (currently 4.4 GiB of binaries, compared to 11 GiB of ttyrecs) 19:15:18 <|amethyst> elliott: only 184 MiB of that are actual saves 19:16:01 <|amethyst> The biggest save is Codrus's 0.12 save at 2244 KiB 19:16:12 what are you doing codrus! 19:16:19 %whereis codrus 19:16:19 Codrus the Grappler (L12 GhDK), a worshipper of Yredelemnul, dead on Lair:1 on 2012-09-07 after 22207 turns. 19:16:20 is it a farming game 19:16:35 <|amethyst> hm 19:16:47 what if you forced people playing trunk to update their saves? 19:16:49 farming perhaps, but only if he is the fertilizer 19:17:03 <|amethyst> evilmike: I'll consider it if it starts to be a problem 19:17:26 yes, just kill all the beautiful uberoctopodes :P 19:17:35 (actually I think CSZO never had that bug) 19:17:46 it was before the last save compat break anyway 19:17:57 <|amethyst> %git d74414 19:18:44 |amethyst * 0.11-a0-2761-gd744141: Fix ridiculous octopode squeeze damage. (9 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/d744141a0150 19:18:44 I wonder why no comments have reached issues #6179 or #6161 19:18:44 <|amethyst> that was a month before CSZO existed :) 19:18:49 HangedMan: I have st_ plenty of comments on irc 19:18:51 HangedMan: I see comments on 6161 19:19:08 as for the serial vaults, it's big and I haven't looked at it yet 19:19:12 whoops, I meant 6163 19:19:13 I'm going to get to this stuff on the weekend 19:19:50 same deal. it's big, and testing it will take me some time. So I haven't done it yet 19:20:08 infiniplex really knows what he's doing, so I'm not too worried about smaller issues 19:20:09 was just wondering since "teleporter-focused in lot of places vault" was veto'd and I remember some lack of confidence in early encompass vaults 19:20:10 -!- barbs has joined ##crawl-dev 19:20:42 erm, veto'd when I brought it up a while back (though I guess it was more "keep it rare" and that could be done with lowered CHANCE or whatever) 19:21:05 I didn't veto it, I said teleporters shouldn't be used much 19:21:28 this is a serial vault with a chance of 1%. 19:21:40 -!- PollyEsther has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:22:06 -!- PollyEsther_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:22:57 -!- jotwebe_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:02 <|amethyst> hm... it would be nice if it were possible to see what revision a particular game is using 19:23:18 I'm alright with the serial vault. Less sure about the parts of it which are able to place outside of the serial vault (anything with a DEPTH line) 19:23:21 <|amethyst> I mean, edlothiol and I can use ps, but that doesn't help other devs 19:23:50 what I've done is yell at the player in chat and tell them to type ?V 19:24:05 <|amethyst> :) 19:24:27 maybe sequell could record this stuff? 19:25:06 could have very vague spoilers about looking for the plus and it'd be nice to have transparent tags to stop the hatches but then yred/beogh would always have to recall past the floor 19:25:21 ?? 19:25:43 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:25:45 #+# 19:25:47 +@# 19:25:49 #+# 19:25:55 is this really meant to be a possible upstairs location in new vaults 19:25:58 <|amethyst> evilmike: we'd have to add it to the milestones/logfiles first of course 19:26:32 serial_teleporters_trap_5, monsters can't use teleporters, serial vaults placing lots of tiny corridor vaults places lots of hatches 19:26:59 wait, what happened to the door vaults with the removal of secret doors? 19:27:02 elliott: yes? the rooms come in a whole bunch of sizes, some of them are closets 19:27:12 please tell me they are now just normal doors 19:27:15 or runed doors! 19:27:23 evilmike: fair enough, just seems a weird location to start a level in 19:27:35 most of them are more normal, don't worry 19:27:36 btw, can you get runed door mimics? that would be disasterous for things trying to keep stuff in with them 19:27:45 hahaha 19:27:50 best xom vault 19:28:00 s/vault/effect 19:28:09 I like the idea of Xom opening runed doors for you 19:28:25 HangedMan: anyway dont tell me this feedback, post it on the mantis item 19:28:26 "here, let me get that for you" 19:28:32 was going to 19:28:47 alright thanks 19:29:15 there seem to be quite a lot of vaults made out of these one-size closets 19:29:23 or at least it spawns a lot, there's like three on this Vaults:2 alone 19:29:32 poor door vaults are made solely of runed doors and thus have build-in choke-points and also never open due to noise because it has to interrupt autoexplore 19:30:27 I was doing some experimentation with not_door_vault_hangedman to make it "sensible" and I think for regular door vaults the outside ring being runed doors but not the other two laters of doors being runed would be best 19:30:50 HangedMan: so noise would never open them? 19:30:51 elliott: I haven't really noticed that many. I mean, it's certainly possible, but it doesn't seem to overuse them imo 19:31:03 evilmike: ok, just checking it's just the luck of the draw 19:31:16 if all the runed doors opened at once when you open any of them it might work 19:31:21 elliott: didn't say it was perfect, just that it's a noticable step-up from the current "open three corners" 19:32:08 some of the individual subvaults have a lot of closets in them, but I don't think you were talking about those 19:32:18 also by default it's all one door and it gets seperated by lua since that used to work out well 19:33:36 |amethyst: webtiles shows the exact crawl version in the title 19:33:53 evilmike: I meant it had a lot of "rooms" (vaults!) with closets 19:34:04 ah 19:35:30 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:23 -!- BlackSheep has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:16 <|amethyst> edlothiol: so it does 19:39:43 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 19:43:52 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:10 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:49:42 -!- lexackson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:50:00 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:51:30 -!- lexackson_ is now known as LexAckson 19:55:25 -!- LexAckson has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:51 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:55 -!- tensorpudding_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:03:16 -!- Adder has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:04:07 -!- lexackson has joined ##crawl-dev 20:04:20 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:04:20 -!- bh has quit [Changing host] 20:04:20 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:06 Why am I having such trouble calling can_see successfully 20:11:32 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:39 -!- alefury has quit [] 20:11:41 -!- rast- is now known as rast 20:17:11 -!- ajikeshi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:20:19 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:22:21 -!- Jatoskep has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:24:10 * dtsund perpetrates a if(you.can_see(actor_at(m.pos()))) 20:24:54 ugh, too readable 20:25:05 !abyss dtsund 20:25:05 Wensley casts a spell. dtsund is devoured by a tear in reality! 20:25:23 <|amethyst> dtsund: what happens if there is no actor there? 20:25:52 Can't happen. 20:26:08 There's a previous check to make sure m was placed. 20:26:13 <|amethyst> err 20:26:17 <|amethyst> m is a monster? 20:26:25 Yes. That's why that line is so stupid. 20:26:26 <|amethyst> why can't you do you.can_see(m) ? 20:26:40 Because gcc chokes on it. 20:26:45 <|amethyst> oh 20:26:52 <|amethyst> m is a monster, not a monster * I guess 20:26:56 <|amethyst> you.can_see(&m) 20:27:16 <|amethyst> (since you were doing m.pos() not m->pos()) 20:27:33 ...and once again, I get * and & mixed up. 20:28:58 -!- Jatoskep has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29:37 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:41:54 are all of the levels (minus pan) generated when the game begins? 20:44:05 ...no? 20:46:24 bh: no 20:46:43 Levels are only generated when you first enter them 20:46:47 bh: though I assume the random seed is persisted from the start of the game, so... sort of? :) 20:47:43 you can choose your own seed when you start crawl but it only affects D:1 20:48:05 I see 20:48:06 well, it affects other newgame stuff too. But D:2 and beyond will be different 20:48:29 I'm going to make a 'copy the dungeon' abyss generator 20:48:52 Wensley: not really sort of 20:48:56 Wensley: since other RNG rolls will affect it 20:49:03 brogue has seeds that determine the entire dungeon, it has to juggle RNGs constantly 20:49:21 even switching to another RNG for cosmetic stuff like randomised animations 20:49:26 elliott: the solution, of course, is monads. 20:49:38 clearly 20:50:38 I *wish* that were a joke 20:50:47 -!- Leibowitz has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:57:34 lovelylum2020 (L22 HOHe) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 431 failed. (D:23) 20:59:42 "all problems in computer science can be solved by monads, except for the problem of explaining monads" 21:00:01 Wensley: yes. 21:00:06 monads are overrated anyway 21:00:10 * elliott too cool for that 21:00:13 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:31 elliott: but monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors 21:00:45 how can they not be the coolest thing 21:00:51 Wensley: i would laugh but you have *no idea* how many times a day that joke gets repeated in #haskell 21:01:05 fuck I don't even know what a monoid or endofunctor is 21:01:14 I am sure that also is said every day in #haskell 21:01:22 monoids are just things, you know 21:01:25 all very simple, thingies and things 21:01:33 I got kicked from #python for saying that Python doesn't have a type system. 21:01:34 suddenly I understand everything 21:01:44 The pythonistas said that it does -- everything is a PyObject 21:01:46 assholes. 21:02:07 bh: I think you have a problem, there are many dynamic languages beside python that you can direct your anger towards :P 21:02:19 Wensley: There's Perl 21:02:40 Python is the worst of them though. People confuse it for a language they should be using. 21:03:48 I'm going to write a python interpreter in haskell 21:04:02 and python bindings from haskell 21:04:09 so that you can python while you haskell 21:04:20 there are already haskell<->python bridges of sorts 21:04:35 elliott: though C/C++? 21:05:17 what do you mean? the Haskell binds to Python's C API, but no actual C is involved 21:05:36 (except that Haskell implementations may compile the binding stuff to C along the way, but I don't think GHC does by default -- I may be wrong though) 21:06:26 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 21:11:04 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)] 21:23:03 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:23:51 WTF is a Haskell 21:24:01 -!- DainHome has quit [Changing host] 21:29:19 a profound question 21:34:49 -!- Tolias has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:35:01 -!- ToastyP has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:38:07 -!- CampinSa` is now known as CampinSam 21:43:13 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:07 quick -- how big is a dungeon floor? 21:45:43 max 80x70 22:00:10 -!- HangedMan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:35 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:10:52 -!- Jatoskep has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:16:26 -!- Ystah has quit [Quit: CyberScript - O ministério da saúde adverte: usar CyberScript causa dependência! (www.cyberscript.org)] 22:26:23 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:27:09 hey guys 22:27:34 so, i found something a bit weird when looking at melee_attack.cc 22:27:52 the amount of noise an attack makes is based on damage, after ac is applied 22:28:03 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:28:10 yep 22:28:13 apparently it used to be uncapped 22:28:18 so high-damage melee would be the loudest thing in the game 22:28:22 haha 22:28:32 I guess the noise should probably be based on pre-AC damage? 22:28:38 Yeah, you could punch someone in the face with the sound of a raging firestorm :P 22:28:38 would it be better to have, yeah 22:28:45 and maybe a hard cap? 22:28:53 Doesn't it have a hard cap? 22:28:56 or on some mix of damage plus AC reduction. 22:29:10 If you hit someone in plate with an axe it's going to be louder than hitting someone in leather 22:29:21 That seems like overcomplication :P 22:29:24 yeah 22:29:25 Note: the game doesn't necessarily benefit from that complexity 22:29:39 also, the cleave patch is almost done :) 22:29:44 But applying AC is weird because you can be making gigantic swings with your giant spiked club and it'll be quiet if the thing has enough AC. 22:29:53 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:29:54 just have to adjust the base damage on the axes 22:30:05 (It should probably also make noise even if SH blocks it? Maybe none of this is worth it. Maybe basing noise on damage isn't even a good idea.) 22:30:30 good point 22:31:37 I think a base noise on attacking is probably fine 22:31:59 I mean, different weapon types make considerably different levels of noise, but does anyone EVER notice this? 22:32:04 If they didn't look at the code? 22:32:23 "Don't use blunt weapons - they're extra-noisy" 22:32:31 well, it's good that small weapons make less noise if you are trying to be sneaky 22:32:36 Why would you be multiple times louder on D:27 than on D:1? Why would one swing with a broad axe be louder than a billion swipes of a sword? 22:32:38 but other than that it almost never matters 22:32:44 I dunno, I'm just not sure it's worth the complexity. 22:32:55 I wonder how it interacts with stabs. 22:33:03 stabs are silent i think? 22:33:05 Stabs might be one of the only places it's relevant 22:33:07 or very quiet? 22:33:09 -!- stenno has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:33:15 special cased 22:33:25 iirc 22:33:32 Otherwise, the noise of any weapon is generally enough to wake up nearby things, and not far away things. At least in my experience 22:33:45 wow, fire and elec attacks add noise too 22:33:58 Elec is loud 22:34:01 (by monsters) 22:34:02 That bit IS noticable 22:34:34 and yeah successful stabs are silent 22:35:40 there is a comment above melee_attack::handle_noise 22:35:40 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 22:36:15 huh and elec is extra noisy even if it doesn't "proc" 22:36:23 does it "gen" a noise 22:36:31 It is? That bit isn't the noticable 22:36:46 well it "gens" more noise if it "procs" because the noise is based on damage done 22:37:16 or something 22:37:30 I though the shower of sparks was loud independtly of damage 22:37:38 it would be an easy fix to make it use pre-ac damage for melee attacks 22:38:21 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:27 Might want to scale noise down overall, if that's done, of course. Unless you WANT everyone going around being noticably louder 22:38:34 -!- Fhqwhgads_ is now known as Fhqwhgads 22:39:39 does anyone know which file holds the weapon base damages? 22:40:30 i can search around, but i figured i'd see if anyone knew off hand 22:40:58 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:15 itemprop probably 22:41:27 -!- RollieTG has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]] 22:41:57 thanks 22:44:47 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 22:45:51 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:47:24 -!- CampinSam has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:43 -!- barbs has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:50:51 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 22:52:48 -!- ToastyP is now known as Guest95235 22:53:18 -!- angus has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:32 -!- Guest95235 is now known as ToastyP_ 22:55:21 -!- Flun has quit [Client Quit] 22:58:45 -!- pelotr0n is now known as pelotron 23:02:33 where is each floor stored? 23:05:58 -!- Rewans has quit [] 23:07:27 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:12:38 -!- wjchen has joined ##crawl-dev 23:15:02 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:15:49 <|amethyst> bh: in the save file 23:16:01 <|amethyst> bh: only one level is in memory at a time 23:16:06 |amethyst: yuck! 23:16:27 <|amethyst> (this means that X[] do saving and loading) 23:16:32 -!- link_108 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:18:07 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:07 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 23:18:09 |amethyst: would it be a bad idea to load the entire dungeon into memory? 23:18:33 (I can't imagine that it would be, on a basis of memory) 23:21:49 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:21:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:22:15 <|amethyst> probably not terrible in terms of memory usage, but that would be a major rewrite 23:22:41 I just want to load up the terrain so I can use them in abyss levels 23:24:09 Probably simpler to just load the levels. 23:26:27 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:26:27 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 23:27:06 <|amethyst> I don't think either is particularly simple 23:27:19 <|amethyst> since loading the level means you have to save the level-under-construction 23:27:51 The level under construction is the abyss. 23:28:21 <|amethyst> I figured as much 23:28:22 Is the plan to have the Abyss contain corrupted chunks of the dungeon? 23:28:29 dtsund: part of the plan 23:28:53 dtsund: here's the other part: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6184 23:28:54 Simplest way would probably be to, upon generation of a new D floor, save chunks of it to a side file. 23:29:02 <|amethyst> well 23:29:06 I don't want to serialize that 23:29:07 The Abyss generator could reference those side file[s]. 23:29:15 If you're corrupting it heavily anyway, could you just generate a level LIKE one in the dungeon and use that directly? If it's distorted enough, a real one might be hard to recognize anyway, wouldn't it? 23:29:34 DracoOmega: yes. I could do that 23:29:48 <|amethyst> I think simplest would be to do something like tag_read_level that ignores most of the stuff and stores the grid in an array other than env.grid 23:29:58 <|amethyst> or what DracoOmega says 23:30:17 After playing so many games, it's not like most players are going to go "Wow, that's this game's D:3! I recognize the vaguely generic curve to that corridor!" 23:30:18 Probably 23:31:02 I agree, you might as well just generate your own level instead of grabbing existing ones 23:31:15 Suggestion: Have patches colored to correspond to branches. 23:31:38 And have the terrain match what you'd find in the branch... 23:31:54 Bit o' Swamp here, bit o' Vaults there... 23:32:19 dtsund: I should like that, but this is turning into a huge undertaking 23:32:31 It doesn't need to be done all at once, probably 23:32:55 More flavor stuff like that could always be added later, once a more 'basic' generator is in place that works 23:33:32 DracoOmega: there's a barebones generator in place 23:33:38 Well, less barebones, I mean 23:33:53 I haven't SEEN it in play myself, but I understand that it's still pretty skeletal 23:34:19 the thing about generating your own leve (as opposed to taking existing ones), is you'll get around some weird issues. Like, why should a player banished from D:1 have fewer corrupted levels in the abyss? 23:34:38 and what would you do about partially explored levels? Or levels whose layouts simply wouldn't work for the abyss (e.g. shoals) 23:34:40 -!- Stathol has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:35:00 abyssal shoals would be funny 23:35:08 more like awful. 23:35:27 also, there are some main dungeon layouts (I'm thinking bigger_room) which probably wouldn't work at all with what you're doing 23:35:48 Oh, by the way, was that idea of having some sort of abyssal chasm stand in for deep water in the Abyss serious? Like, ones that you could actually jump down, if you wanted? 23:36:02 soooo... it would probably be best to just find layouts in layout.des that work, and tag them with "abyss" or something 23:36:02 I think it might be sort of interesting, actually 23:36:03 thisisntbrogue... 23:36:25 If any place in the game can stand to have yawning chasms that go down and down and down, it would be a place called the Abyss :P 23:36:49 fr: thisisbrogue 23:38:41 It would have one interesting advantage over deep water in the Abyss in that, instead of being potentially trapped by it (if you lacked flying), you could always choose to dive in to avoid some creeping death moving to pin you (at the cost of making the overall threat level higher) 23:38:43 It's just I recalled someone mention this the other day (forget who), and thought it was a bit interesting 23:39:02 * elliott likes it, FWIW 23:39:13 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:39:23 it's flavourful and interesting 23:39:29 DracoOmega: want to implement it on my branch? 23:39:32 and keeps flight as a distinct advantage in the abyss without making it so annoying 23:39:45 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:39:50 -!- voker57 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:01 -!- barbs has joined ##crawl-dev 23:40:01 bh: Well, I might consider it, if there's support for it 23:40:12 I was actually thinking about maybe trying to implement some of those abyss monsters 23:40:27 that would be neat. How about random abyss mobs? 23:40:42 oh right -- Panlords. 23:41:42 bh: have you seen that writeup on the wiki with the big word dump? 23:41:53 evilmike: maybe? link it 23:42:02 those would be used for random abyss creatures i guess. i wouldnt use pan lords as a model though... that would be lame 23:42:22 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:creatures:abyss#word_dump 23:42:35 man, kraken tentacles are nonsense 23:43:26 warning: this stuff is the work of hangedman 23:43:29 'an unnervingly mass of shapes hits you for 42 damage!' 23:43:46 how would you remove the tedium of conning every monster? 23:43:50 that sort of stuff does sound pretty cool to me though. maybe it could be used instead of abominations 23:44:01 conning? 23:44:10 viewing their status/info 23:44:17 replace abominations wholesale with that stuff 23:44:31 abominations are horrendously dull. 23:44:44 bh: oh. well, the randomization wouldnt be too extreme. it would be like aboms are now - random stats, but no huge outliers 23:45:06 how about novel resistances with color coding? 23:45:12 makes Necros more interesting 23:45:14 too much demon overlap? 23:45:40 you could also look at the "chaos companions" page, there is a whole writeup for this stuff 23:45:52 I can't remember what the ideas are though 23:45:59 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:13 Last night, I was thinking about how to turn some of those vague monster description on the wiki into things that can actually exist in the game 23:46:21 ??invisible horror 23:46:22 unseen horror[1/4]: "These creatures are usually unseen by the eyes of most, and those few who have seen them would rather not have." Moves like a bat, invisible, and flees when wounded. A purple x if you can see invisible. The bane of mages and EV fighters everywhere. 23:47:26 I was thinking that maybe Lurking Horrors would essentially be submerged all the time when more than 3 or so squares away from you, and have reduced speed there (and possibly a random ocassional message implying that you caught sight of something before it vanished again), but when you stumbled next to it (or it approached you) it would reveal itself and move at faster-than-average speed 23:47:51 unseen horrors would be hell in the abyss, i don't recommend putting them there 23:48:20 Well, I don't think this is really the same thing (and it was on the list, anyway) 23:48:25 evilmike: I put them in one exit vault -- mixed 'em in with Executioners. 23:48:36 i meant as random spawns 23:48:37 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:48:37 I don't know if that vault has ever killed someone 23:48:42 sure 23:48:46 Oh. Nevermind. 23:48:52 i think i've gotten that vault 23:48:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:48:58 Their names are kinda similar, now that I look... >.> 23:49:01 bh: you can check with !lg * map=map_name 23:49:01 it seems designed so the executioner pops up just as you're about to leave 23:49:17 makes it feel like you've narrowly escaped something very nasty 23:49:44 for invisible abyss monsters loros are pretty much the standard choice nowadays, no? 23:51:33 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:38 -!- Turgor has quit [] 23:52:22 yeesh 23:52:34 !lg * map=bmh_executioner_abyss_exit 23:52:35 1. Naibos the Skirmisher (L1 DrAK), worshipper of Lugonu, slain by an unseen horror in the Abyss (bmh executioner abyss exit) on 2012-09-03, with 20 points after 28 turns and 0:01:00. 23:52:46 grats on yr kill 23:52:46 -!- vwzzz has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:52:55 maybe we should remove that vault. 23:53:25 -!- Jatoskep has joined ##crawl-dev 23:53:26 but it's killed someone! it's sacred 23:53:33 perhaps. depending on how your abyss rewrite turns out, the old vaults may need reworking or removal 23:53:38 !lg * map=bmh_abyss_silent_exit 23:53:38 1. EyeBee the Skirmisher (L1 DsAK), worshipper of Lugonu, slain by a frost giant (a +0,+0 battleaxe of freezing) in the Abyss (bmh abyss silent exit) on 2012-04-20, with 20 points after 26 turns and 0:00:23. 23:53:49 jesus. 23:54:15 note: this counts people who died *on* the map. if a monster wanders out and kills someone, it doesnt count 23:54:23 abyss maps are small. players can run away from them, and die outside 23:54:26 I doubt there were many more 23:54:42 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:54:53 !lg * map=bmh_abyss_fiendish_exit 23:54:54 2. Roarke the Blocker (L19 HuAs), worshipper of Cheibriados, mangled by a Hell Sentinel in the Abyss (bmh abyss fiendish exit) on 2012-08-23, with 179783 points after 51165 turns and 4:46:18. 23:55:08 exits shouldnt really try to kill players anyway. just give them a scare while they run for the portal 23:55:29 evilmike: the idea with the exit vaults was to add some hard ones to let tough players leave more quickly 23:55:36 aim to accidentally kill, clearly 23:55:51 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:15 bh: the problem with that idea is you're making the abyss harder for high level players, and even moreso for low level players 23:56:27 adding exit vaults does not cause the abyss to place *more* exits 23:56:40 point. I'm going to delete 'em. 23:56:57 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:57:07 !lg * map=bmh_abyss_demonologist_exit 23:57:07 6. profreshinal the Severer (L14 HOCK), worshipper of Xom, slain by an Executioner (summoned by a lich (summoned by a lich demonologist)) in the Abyss (bmh abyss demonologist exit) on 2012-08-31, with 45245 points after 22139 turns and 3:18:41. 23:57:08 that's usually not necessary. usually problematic vaults can be edited a bit, and they're just fine 23:57:26 ouch. That's a rough death. 23:57:36 that vault is quite harsh 23:57:49 The door *is* runed 23:57:58 oh btw, that silence one you made is funny when an altar is nearby 23:58:10 does silence prevent praying? 23:58:11 i once saw someone who wanted to convert to lugonu to escape the abyss, but it was silenced by that vault 23:58:13 yes 23:58:27 that's brilliant. How about I make a vault that does that artificially? 23:58:44 perhaps. let the player kill the silent spectre though, or it's just dumb 23:59:55 hide the silent spectre behind a secret door so everyone prays before killing i*oof*