00:01:01 -!- daftfad has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:01:31 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:26 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11-b1-72-gbc36335 00:04:06 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: Counted eleven steps when his brain said ten.] 00:05:04 -!- keszocze has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:05:16 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: bye] 00:07:34 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-239-g60d718a (34) 00:13:05 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:36 -!- idle_t has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:19:07 -!- wjchen has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24:06 03|amethyst * r3df748079cab 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Don't crash when a constrictor follows you upstairs. 00:24:07 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.11 * rba8f6891a098 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Don't crash when a constrictor follows you upstairs. 00:27:03 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:29:18 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:09 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:25 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:59 <|amethyst> !tell kilobyte not sure if you noticed, but whitenoise uploaded an Arachne corpse tile (two, actually) to #6080 00:34:59 |amethyst: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 00:40:06 -!- morik has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:35 ??archne 00:41:35 I don't have a page labeled archne in my learndb. 00:41:38 ??arachne 00:41:38 arachne[1/2]: A half-spider caster with a staff of poison and a spell that ensnares you with webs. And poison arrow and venom bolt. Unlike spiders, she is not poison-vulnerable---and the staff gives her resistance. 00:41:49 ??arachne[2] 00:41:49 arachne[2/2]: In Trunk, has a 1% chance to have the Staff of Olgreb in place of the staff of poison. 00:41:56 ??staff of olgreb 00:41:56 staff of olgreb[1/1]: Evokes for 4mp and 50 hunger, toxic radiance, *and* an evoc+1 in 10 chance of venom bolt. Succeeds evoc+1 in 6 times. Confers poison resistance and enhances poison magic, like a staff of poison. A quarterstaff (and Trog will gift it!); both to-hit and to-dam are your poison magic skill/3. Poisons in melee just like a weapon of venom. 00:42:06 -!- Yen has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:42:07 I think the only time I met Arachne I made her face blow up in a turn or two 00:43:53 Mangroves get wall shadows (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6126) by ontoclasm 00:44:20 that's not saying much 00:44:37 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:46:13 -!- Silurio has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:49:45 i keep forgetting, but chaos spawn aren't displaying right either - i think line 1701 in tilepick.cc should be return _mon_random(TILEP_MONS_CHAOS_SPAWN); 00:50:13 as is they pick one and stick with it instead of changing every turn 00:50:52 that shadow thing seems new, I didn't notice it at all last time I looked at swamp in tiles (which wasn't too long ago) 00:51:14 <|amethyst> evilmike: it happened with the feature reorder 00:51:31 <|amethyst> evilmike: I'm on it, but haven't compiled tiles in a while so it will take a bit to test 00:51:34 oh, that makes sense 00:55:26 actually I probably didn't notice it. the effect is really subtle 00:55:36 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:31 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:01:12 <|amethyst> odd 01:01:27 <|amethyst> I'm not seeing it at all locally, but it's very obvious on webtiles 01:02:50 I'm seeing it locally, but like I said, it's subtle. It's easiest to see in corners 01:02:57 on a 2x2 square, where the bottom left one is floor 01:03:40 also, I'm seeing some weird shading in shallow water next to floor. Shallow water south of a floor tile has the top edge shaded 01:04:55 the mangrove water in the mangrove tile is also getting shaded in a similar way, it looks like 01:07:59 <|amethyst> that's intentional, see _pack_default_waves 01:08:10 <|amethyst> I guess it's supposed to make the water look lower than the ground 01:09:02 oh, alright. It doesn't really look wrong, it's just something I didn't notice until now 01:09:10 <|amethyst> evilmike: take a look at my webtiles game on CSZO 01:09:50 huh, it doesn't look like that at all, in local tiles 01:09:55 <|amethyst> evilmike: yeah 01:10:39 oh, hm, it looks like they only show up on water 01:10:57 <|amethyst> maybe not 01:11:07 oh, no, i'm just blind 01:11:09 I noticed on the floor, but it doesn't look as wrong there 01:15:11 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-241-gbac017f (34) 01:15:21 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 01:15:37 <|amethyst> okay, that fixed it 01:16:05 03|amethyst * rbac017f56f09 10/crawl-ref/source/tilecell.cc: Don't draw wall shadows around mangroves. 01:16:17 <|amethyst> I don't have stuff set up to run webtiles here, so "push it into production" is clearly the best way to test whether a fix works 01:16:56 -!- eb has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:02 is this in 0.11 as well? 01:18:23 <|amethyst> yes, I'll be pushing that in a minute 01:19:06 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:21:55 -!- thened has quit [Quit: thened] 01:22:46 -!- localhost has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:23:23 <|amethyst> actually 01:23:27 <|amethyst> it's not necessary in 0.11 01:23:56 <|amethyst> because the reorder was after that (with the bump to major version 34) 01:24:04 03|amethyst * r6471126f9fe1 10/crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: Make chaos spawn tiles more chaotic. 01:24:13 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: there you go :) 01:25:45 -!- Tenaya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:29:39 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:31:53 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:32:17 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:33:06 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 01:34:11 -!- minced has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:34:40 Tengu lost flight control (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6127) by nubinia 01:36:54 |amethyst: thanks :D 01:46:16 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:52:32 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:54:08 03|amethyst * r7c4eb2bd747e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h): Remove two unused player methods. 01:58:36 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 02:00:53 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:01:21 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:40 -!- Sab0t_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:05:09 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:08:12 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 02:08:30 -!- pantaril has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:09:06 -!- vev has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:16:42 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:27 -!- KKCryptic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:18:53 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:20:23 Unidentified Wand of Invisibility marked as useless when worshipping TSO. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6128) by Seven Deadly Sins 02:22:09 -!- namad7 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:23:42 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:18 -!- ktgrey has quit [] 02:32:38 -!- elliott has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:33:54 -!- evilmike has quit [] 02:45:25 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:45:57 -!- Twinge has quit [] 02:53:30 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:53:46 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:04:05 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:04:21 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:50 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 03:05:55 -!- ebarrett has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:27 -!- Incerto has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:11:57 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:17:31 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 03:30:38 -!- ontoclasm1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:32:18 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:42:07 -!- RollieTG has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 03:53:53 -!- sbluen has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10:39 -!- brochacho has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:12:02 -!- monqy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:24 -!- ontoclasm1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:55 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:56 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:16:47 -!- eb has quit [*.net *.split] 04:16:48 -!- pantaril has quit [*.net *.split] 04:16:49 -!- blmarket has quit [*.net *.split] 04:16:49 -!- Exister has quit [*.net *.split] 04:16:49 -!- Senjai|GW2 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:16:49 -!- monqy has quit [*.net *.split] 04:17:06 -!- monqy_ is now known as monqy 04:22:13 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:22:39 -!- eb_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:23:23 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:24:08 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 04:25:07 -!- blmarket has joined ##crawl-dev 04:29:31 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:30:58 -!- eb_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:31:24 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:31:45 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:03 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:36:50 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:39:36 -!- eb_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:41:46 -!- pantaril_ is now known as pantaril 04:46:50 -!- lorenz371 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51:21 -!- eb has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:10 -!- Senri has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:00:00 -!- SkaryMonk1 is now known as SkaryMonk 05:01:22 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:04:11 -!- st_ has quit [] 05:06:41 -!- ebarrett has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:15 -!- wasd22 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:30 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:13:18 |amethyst: uploading _corpse_ tile is pointless, what we want is a tile of the monster without staff 05:13:18 kilobyte: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:14:00 because it'll get inconsistent the moment the way corpses are generated is modified 05:14:11 (like, to adjust blood, etc) 05:14:35 -!- eb has quit [Client Quit] 05:14:55 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:18:53 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:23:18 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:45 -!- DracoOmega has quit [] 05:29:57 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:31:11 -!- hayenne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:54 -!- Rewans has quit [] 05:45:15 -!- Senri has quit [Client Quit] 05:46:31 -!- Yen has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:52:01 -!- diwdoqwq has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:27 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:09 -!- wasd22 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:06:55 -!- white_noise has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:07:05 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: ThrashIRC v2.6 sic populo comunicated] 06:15:28 kilobyte: 5966 06:20:21 -!- inde has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:26:26 -!- y2s82_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:18 -!- Senjai|MovieTime has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:33:35 -!- Rewans has quit [] 06:47:47 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:43 hi dpeg! 07:01:43 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 07:01:51 !messages 07:01:52 (1/2) elliptic said (10h 31m 12s ago): I looked over the fighting reform page... my inclination about attributes is that just increasing the impact on accuracy/damage a bit would be enough. For anything accuracy-related, I think test_hit() itself could use looking at though. 07:01:58 !messages 07:01:59 (1/1) elliptic said (10h 29m 24s ago): For special effects, I think we should start with cleave and see how it goes... the other possibilites on that page don't look that good to me and I think we should be able to do better, and there's no real hurry anyway 07:02:52 dpeg: about cleave, I think I like better if it attacks 5 cells rather than 8 07:03:18 yes I know brogue blalbla, but we don't have to do it exactly the same, we can experiment something else 07:04:11 -!- hayenne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:04:14 galehar: okay, fair enough. I guess my main point was to go away from the old proposals on the wiki (some of them mine), which try to be realistic, and go for a strong effect instead. 07:04:38 I think 5 is strong 07:04:48 yes 07:05:03 -!- PsyMar has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:05:19 also, with 5, you can't use it in a corridor to hit the 2 enemies surrounding you 07:05:30 you really have to be in the open 07:05:51 good point 07:05:58 even a wall in the corner can prevent you form hitting the 2 monsters orthogonal to it 07:06:03 *from 07:06:37 I think even 3 might be worth looking at. 07:06:46 But 5 sounds lika a sweet spot. 07:07:01 how about just starting strong, with 5 and -1 base damage? 07:07:13 then nerf if it turns out to be too good? 07:07:14 Absolutely. 07:07:27 We need people to use it so we see how it plays, regardles sof power. 07:07:34 or add cleave first, and nerf in the version after :) 07:07:59 galehar: For goodness sake, don't nerf after it's been released :F 07:08:01 :D 07:08:05 btw, it should automatically attack the right 5 squares 07:08:18 alefury: you mean with tab? 07:08:23 in general 07:08:29 I assume it's the 5 squares around the direction of attack. 07:08:37 so to speak not "behind you" 07:08:45 tab should work otherwise you have the old reaching problem 07:08:46 ah right... 07:09:16 well, there is a problem with that: 07:09:17 I haven't read the wiki in a while, but will this be always on? 07:09:24 Or activated like reach? 07:09:27 if there is an enemy north of you, you can attack it to attack both enemies left and right of you 07:09:31 Because reach is still activated+ 07:09:33 ? 07:09:33 ghallberg: passive, always on 07:09:41 if there is no enemy north of you, you cant attack both enemies left and right of you at once 07:09:58 so people would want to ctrl-attack empty squares 07:10:07 Need something like Z? 07:10:12 which in turn would allow you to attack enemies left and right of you in a corridor if it worked on walls 07:10:14 or is it ^z? 07:10:25 alefury: it won't work with walls 07:10:33 but with empty squares? 07:10:41 I think neither 07:10:51 that seems pretty counterintuitive 07:11:04 ctrl+dir would disable it 07:11:05 I guess Tab should try to maximise the number of targets; in case of draw, pick either (no need to ask the player -- in a dire situation she would have hopefully stopped tabbing) 07:11:16 also scummable: summon butterflies, then attack them to cleave optimally 07:11:33 dpeg: in case of draw, autofight already has a way to prioritize targets 07:11:38 dpeg: can break ties with regular target priority 07:11:44 I'm for attacking empty space somehow 07:12:04 ghallberg: im against tabbing empty space, thats what i meant with "automatically pick the right 5 squares" 07:12:05 alefury: except that to attack allies, you have to ctrl+dir, so no cleaving 07:12:23 if there are two enemies you can cleave at once, no matter which one of them you attack both should be cleaved 07:12:29 that way there is never a need to attack empty space 07:12:32 galehar: good 07:13:03 galehar: many allies turn hostile when attacked, just would have to use spammals instead of butterflies 07:13:03 alefury: hmm yeah 07:13:24 here is another way to explain it: when you attack an enemy, it automatically attack enemies that or adjacent both to it and to you 07:13:38 that would only be 3 tiles, though 07:13:38 that way, no problem with empty space 07:13:52 alefury: not if you attack orthogonally 07:13:59 adjacent with diagonal count 07:14:09 galehar got the diagonals all sorted out :) 07:14:15 but attacking a diagonal can attack only 3 enemies 07:14:20 also its dumb, because if you can hit 3/5 tiles with a swing, why can you only do so if theres an enemy in the middle? 07:14:30 galehar: the rule is not so bad, might be a good start. 07:14:32 also, why penalize diagonals? sounds annoying 07:14:56 sounds like it needs some tactics, I'd try it. 07:15:10 alefury: it's not a penalty. The 3 enemies you can hit with a diagonal swing are also hit by the other 2 orthogonal swings 07:15:34 right, so it would never make sense to attack diagonally 07:15:49 "True axemen need just four keys." 07:15:54 the point is that you still have to work for tactical positioning 07:16:25 actually i dont think it would change much, you would still want to minimize the number of enemies adjacent to you 07:16:32 alefury: unless there's only 3 enemies in an L shape. attacking any of the 3 would be the same 07:16:36 its just less of a priority 07:17:07 also it would help deal with encounters where minimizing the adjacent enemies is not practical 07:17:13 like eustachio or something 07:17:23 ynoxinul, etc 07:17:27 orc bands... 07:17:36 corridors aren't always available... 07:17:56 galehar: against normal speed melee enemies, they are on most maps 07:18:28 you can just walk to one, for free 07:18:43 alefury: do you really travel half the map to hide in a corridor as soon as there are more than one guy? 07:18:47 (yes i know, lalala, spawns, wandering mosnters, etc) 07:18:57 if they are actually dangerous, yes 07:19:08 or i would if i was a better and more patient player 07:19:14 less turns to kill popcorn. more speedrun potential 07:19:53 dont get me wrong, i think cleaving would be good, because often it is not practical or necessary to fight in a corridor already, and it would help in those situations 07:20:19 but when it is optimal to fight in a corridor it would still be optimal with cleaving 07:20:52 just the opportunity cost of getting to a corridor might be offset by cleaving, so people would probably fight in the open more when its not too much of a problem 07:21:46 alefury: not always. For example, with berserk it would be much more efficient to fight in the open to maximize it. 07:21:54 true 07:22:05 yes, the hope is that at times cleaving is better than digging in 07:22:06 especially with trog increasing its duration with kills 07:22:26 also to maximize a !might or any other consumable 07:22:30 yep 07:22:34 on the other hand, a fight where you need to berserk in the open might also be a fight that you could win without berserk in a corridor 07:23:11 one is obviously much more fun :) 07:24:05 well, now that i think about it more, if you are already commited to axes (so have to endure the lower base damage both in the open and in corridors), the only difference between fighting 3 adjacent melee enemies in the open and in a corridor would be the duration of the battle, the expected damage you take would still be the same 07:24:19 it would just happen over a shorter time 07:24:41 alefury: I think you are underestimating tactical conditions. 07:24:55 eye monsters, silence, summoners etc. 07:25:00 possibly making it harder to react, and removing some tactical opportunities, but in turn enabling more efficient consumable and buff use 07:25:22 and also minimizing the time you have to spend on killing the dudes 07:25:55 orc priests smiting from the other end of the corridor :) 07:26:09 of course, as soon as you add interesting enemies the situation is much more complex 07:26:34 i think cleaving would be pretty good :) 07:27:08 also think of HP from kills etc. 07:27:20 like i said, _same_ expected damage as in a corridor (compared to 3-5x more expected damage without cleaving), but everything happens faster 07:27:29 yes 07:28:39 anyway, i think attacking a 5-square arc that stops at walls would be more intuitive than attacking monsters both adjacent to you and the attacked monster 07:29:28 (the arc should always be chosen to maximize targets and include the monster you actually attacked) 07:29:38 hmm 07:29:50 actually galehar's version would be easier to make predictable 07:29:58 so it might be better after all 07:30:31 -!- domi_ has quit [Quit: さようなら] 07:30:35 i think any version should cleave optimally, however 07:31:22 also that nasty business of people wanting to attack empty squares is still there with galehar's version 07:32:06 also, sometimes you could attack 5 enemies that are next to you and adjacent to each other, and sometimes you couldnt 07:32:18 for example you could not attack 5 enemies in an L-shape at once 07:32:31 but you could if they were in a half-circle shape 07:33:20 yeah, that's the little issue I have with diagonal attack. It might make sense to allow attacking the other 2 diagonals, but then it's harder to explain 07:33:30 so I think not 07:34:01 i think a 5-square arc that includes as many enemies at possible and always includes the monster you attacked would work very well 07:34:08 -!- se has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:03 the one issue i have with it is ambiguity: one enemy west, one northeast, one southeast, you can attack any two of them with this proposal. which would be chosen? 07:35:33 except that sometimes, you'd be happy to not maximize it. Because some monsters may be blocking the way for stronger monster behind 07:35:48 then you just go to a corridor? 07:35:49 so I'd rather have it simple and predictable 07:36:20 this would leave the burden of maximizing the targets on the player, and lead to unintuitive controls 07:36:34 for example, to maximize targets, you might have to attack a summon instead of the summoner 07:36:39 I think the control would be very intuitive 07:36:43 unless it dies, in which case you would have to switch targets 07:37:03 it would feel much better to always attack the summoner and have targets maximized automatically 07:37:21 (which autofight could do, but might be difficult to implement) 07:37:34 I don't like that at all. As I've just said, sometimes you'd be very happy not to maximize the number of targets 07:37:47 in that case, go to a fucking corridor? 07:38:07 autofight would maximize targets, manual control leaves you in cotnrol 07:38:34 maybe you need to clear a path to the fucking corridor 07:38:44 but not expose yourself 07:39:00 that seems like a fairly far-fetched scenario 07:39:31 also stronger monsters should just displace weak ones 07:39:34 well, autofight is there to maximize targets when that's your priority anyway 07:39:56 it works very well for the monsters that do it imo 07:39:56 what if the strong monster is far away and has ranged attacks? 07:40:10 it's not a far fetched scenario, it happens all the time 07:40:21 predictable is crucial 07:41:01 i guess well just see how it works when its implemented, im looking forward to it 07:41:15 ctrl+dir attack one square, diagonal 3, orthogonal 5, tab maximize targets. Simple and predictable. 07:41:21 we can argue more if problems turn up :) 07:41:26 exactly 07:41:27 s/when/if 07:41:29 players wll love it 07:42:23 oh, i already wrote if 07:42:32 i thought i had wrote when for some reason 07:42:41 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:44:00 btw, are dead monsters supposed to show up in the webtiles monster list? 07:46:09 -!- Alexor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:47:48 -!- Zeph has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:51:52 -!- Deathmic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:11 actually, the monster list seems generally out of date for me, with some monsters not showing up, and some out of sight or dead monsters still on the list 08:00:12 -!- wasd223 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:03:58 galehar: now I have to look up Walter White. 08:04:01 living monsters not being on the list might be from lack of space 08:04:14 because it is taken up by dead monsters 08:04:17 dpeg: Breaking Bad 08:04:39 snow does have a point, though :) 08:05:02 maybe, but he's such an asshole I'm not willing to consider it 08:05:18 hehe 08:05:58 Webtiles monster list problems (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6129) by Galefury 08:06:35 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:18 -!- namad7 has quit [] 08:10:27 snow? 08:10:32 on the tavern 08:10:35 ah 08:10:37 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5509 08:10:41 ty 08:16:59 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:20:30 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:20:58 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:52 -!- domi is now known as domi_ 08:32:21 -!- DainHome has quit [Changing host] 08:32:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:10 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 08:37:24 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:37:54 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:39:56 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:39 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:16 -!- DainHome has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:56:32 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:00 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:38 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07:18 -!- Qwertycoatl has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:08:07 unknown monster: "in the court of the crimstone fiend" 09:08:07 <|amethyst> %??in the court of the crimstone fiend 09:08:09 <|amethyst> doh 09:09:36 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:09:56 crimstone fiend? 09:10:08 new portal vault? 09:10:13 -!- urthmove1 has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:12:12 -!- NeremWorld has quit [] 09:14:59 -!- tJener has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:16:23 -!- Flun has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:23:29 -!- tJener has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:24:40 -!- tJener has quit [Client Quit] 09:24:58 I don't even want to know 09:25:57 when i google for crimstone fiend, google just silently autocorrects to friend 09:26:13 not even a "did you mean to search for ..." 09:30:38 -!- NeremWorld has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:22 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:08 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:19 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:38:50 alefury: you can put double quotes around "fiend" to stop that from happening, fyi 09:38:57 i know 09:39:10 "crimstone fiend" doesnt find anything, though 09:42:30 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:06 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 09:57:08 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:57:39 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:06:10 -!- y2s82 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:11 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:08:58 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:44 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:23:19 -!- Lasse- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:31 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:27:10 -!- ekix_ is now known as ekix 10:30:28 -!- pantaril has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:45:01 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:47:09 -!- Soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:50:57 wow, the snow thread exploded 10:52:37 o/c, every other reply is by the snowman -- alefury, thanks for the replies 10:52:55 -!- Lulero has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:52:58 FR: Niflheim branch 10:54:08 bhaak: need more content! 10:56:00 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:56:53 we got icefiends, right? 10:57:00 isnt that enough for niflheim? 10:57:05 also, frost giants 10:58:37 add yetis 10:58:51 and reinhold messners 10:59:39 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:02:25 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:28 -!- Orionstein has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:07:05 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 11:07:47 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 11:08:59 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:09:10 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 11:09:15 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:51 -!- Lawman has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:10:51 -!- wjchen has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:11:16 -!- VengefulCarrot has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:11:40 -!- Yermak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:05 -!- Senri has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:05 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:30 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:31 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:31 -!- yogidabear has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:13:59 So yeah, snow is an asshat, but is he correct? 11:14:21 about what? 11:14:45 that sacrifices do nothing? Obviously no, that's stupid 11:14:45 About trog sacrifices being pointless. 11:14:52 Ok. 11:15:19 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:23 about them being pointless, I don't think so. But some might think. I guess it's subjective. 11:15:54 sure, they don't have a huge effect 11:16:11 also, auto_sacrifice needs some testing :) 11:16:48 tbh I think removing trog sacs could be beneficial, it makes trog even more streamlined (which is a good thing to me) and it reduces tedium for trog players. 11:17:02 It is true (to me at least) that sacrificing is a no brainer when trogging. 11:17:31 trog could survive a nerf probably 11:17:42 especially an early game nerf 11:17:54 ah yeah, that too. 11:18:02 i think that early on, when there is less food and you are berserking more, the choice to sacrifice or not is more meaningful 11:18:10 the main effect would be delayed powers and a bit less gifts, and some more downtime between heavy power use 11:19:06 is it possible to seed a crawl game? So that you get the same stuff, and can try with two different setups? 11:19:10 i think the gameplay effects would be totally fine either way, its really just about usability vs flavor imo 11:19:17 and autosac vastly improves usability already 11:19:29 I'm not so hot on the flavor though. 11:19:44 Trog just cares if you kill stuff, not about fidling around with dead corpses. 11:19:56 well, it could be replaced with something similar which has a tactical effect, rather than being a piety engine 11:20:17 maybe trog could give a little extra piety for killing stuff quickly instead 11:20:32 alefury: Yeah, that seems more flavorful 11:20:35 could also be fun with berserk, but would be hard to assess 11:20:41 mhm 11:20:45 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 11:21:01 would that be balanced, though? 11:21:04 somebody suggested something about trog liking "rampages," like you get a multiplier or something 11:21:04 could only do it for high threat enemies (ashtier) and just used a fixed number of turns after seeing the enemy 11:21:07 would be very good for a stabber of trog 11:21:25 so you get more piety for getting lots of kills in a row? 11:21:30 probably scummable i guess 11:21:40 ontoclasm: was gonna say that... 11:22:05 you mean, getting the whole level to low hp and then killing htem quick? 11:22:15 mikee_: i dont think balance matters much in crawl 11:22:15 yeah 11:22:22 there are a lot of ways to scum it 11:22:33 I guess that could be balanced around by losin piety while messing around... 11:22:40 alefury, um, sounds great =P 11:23:09 what i mean is, some stuff is strong, some stuff is not so strong. as long as its still in the same league its probably fine 11:23:39 your point about stabbers is valid of course, but limiting it to hard enemies would help there too i guess 11:23:47 high HD means high chance to wake up 11:24:00 maybe so.. i worry about pushing people towards the stronger things too much though 11:24:25 mikee_: If people don't want the hardest challenge, then that's up to them imo. 11:24:27 most people play offline anyway, theyre not really going to notice 11:24:38 I know I don't want the hardest stuff. 11:24:39 and a flavor of the months trogstabber build wouldnt hurt anyone either :) 11:24:45 I go for the easy combos. 11:25:02 well, i should wait and see in any case 11:25:20 id be more worried about stepping on oka's toes with the bonus piety for hard enemies thing :( 11:25:28 And I agree with snow about auto_sac, it seems to be a clear indiator that sacrifices are at some point not an interesting choice. 11:25:46 rampage piety would fit trog so much better, but does seem way too scummable 11:25:46 i only mind the interface 11:26:08 can we track how long it's been since the player first saw a monster? 11:26:14 alefury: Mind giving me a few pointers on how you would scum it? 11:26:19 when i first started playing crawl, i thought corpse sacrifice was cool and i liked doing it 11:26:29 over time the poor interface made me tired of it though 11:26:33 maybe after x turns you get no/less piety, since trog doesn't like you screwing around not killing stuff 11:26:35 ghallberg: rampage? uh, find some rats, put them on a pile, then kill them 11:26:37 ghallberg: do you also think that autopickup is an indication that items or inventory isn't interesting? 11:27:09 so you get rampage piety for charging into a special room, but dragging a bunch of rats around is a waste 11:27:24 with the fast trog piety decay scumming is discouraged a bit, but i think there would be enough opportunities anyway 11:27:30 auto_sac doesn't you always sacrifice every corpse. You can still choose one to it before tapping o 11:27:55 galehar: No, that's different. Auto sacrifice is once only. 11:28:20 got to go, bye 11:28:30 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20120421074340]] 11:28:35 It's more like health pots automatically saving you from death or something. 11:29:24 have to go too 11:29:24 Well, I guess I misunderstood auto-sac 11:29:24 cya 11:30:44 03dolorous * r7fb167242b2d 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Fix Mantis 6128: Don't mark unidentified wands of invisibility as useless. 11:32:06 hmm... i guess we can't actually update the wiki manual for the apt changes until 0.11 is released, right? 11:33:03 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: bye] 11:33:31 I always liked the idea of sacrificing something. Seems like a proper thing to do. 11:33:55 I dunno, I always like chopping better. 11:34:06 It's so satisfying ro hack sigmund into little piecces. 11:34:08 -c 11:34:08 (This is very much inspired by the classical mythologies, so has very good flavour in my book.) 11:39:42 -!- wasd22 has quit [Quit: You slip out of the net!] 11:43:24 -!- domi_ has quit [Quit: さようなら] 11:45:45 -!- omni_ is now known as omnirizon 11:50:59 -!- xnavy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:53:39 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 11:59:44 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:08 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:00:12 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 12:00:43 -!- rangmere has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:16 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:01:23 I'm wondering how I could contribute art for crawl tiles ... any documentation pages someone could point me to? 12:01:54 -!- Adeon has quit [Quit: bootselipootseli] 12:04:18 rangmere: hm, cannot really help. Stick around for a bit, more tiles-affine regulars will show up. 12:04:33 (And help with tiles is certainly appreciated.) 12:04:40 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:05:55 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:11 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15:10 ontoclasm would know but he has just left 12:16:23 <_dd> my method is: play crawl, until you see a tile you don't like, make your own version and hope others like it better as well 12:16:43 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:59 <_dd> it's also good to play the latest version of trunk so you'll see all the latest tiles 12:18:17 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:18:20 -!- ChongLi has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:20 -!- Orionstein1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:18:20 -!- Escalator_ is now known as Escalator 12:18:41 poor_yurik didn't reply to my mail (he has a blog entry about making tiles for Crawl and I asked if I can link it on CDO) 12:18:53 <_dd> also, if your first attempts aren't popular with people/devs, don't give up, just listen to the feedback and keep working on them 12:19:25 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:42 <_dd> anyone notice the current scroll-id game is kinda boring, compared to potions 12:22:29 how so? the potion-id game tends to be "use scroll of identify on them" 12:22:44 <_dd> well not in the early game 12:22:54 <_dd> in the early game you're not likely to have tons of id scrolls 12:23:01 sure in the early game 12:23:08 <_dd> and you'll want to id at least some basic potions 12:23:24 <_dd> and even a bit later you might want to conserve the id scrolls somewhat 12:23:29 some people have variations for pseudo-IDing potions, but i don't find them interesting 12:23:46 <_dd> i'm thinking more on the lines of making scroll-id more interesting 12:23:54 I always imagined that part of the id game is the tension between delaying use-id as long as possible vs going ahead with it. Is that actually true? 12:24:17 if so, i have avoided that tension completely 12:24:30 dpeg: I think this is true in some games, but not so much in Crawl. 12:24:31 dpeg: well, sort of... except that in 90% of games you can avoid quaff-IDing any potions 12:24:38 i use-ID whenever i have a stack, until i reach a certain point in the game and can use scroll ID more 12:24:53 <_dd> i try to avoid use-id:ing potions, if not necessary 12:24:55 Brogue is an example where it is true. 12:25:02 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:23 <_dd> the point i was trying to make is, with scrolls it's pretty much a nobrainer to read-id them 12:25:31 not a lot of players use my philosophy, i suppose 12:25:41 <_dd> there's no scrolls with really serious consequences - curse foos are a nuisance more than anything 12:25:53 <_dd> easily fixed with rc 12:26:12 the consequence is that you don't have the scroll anymore and may waste its effect 12:26:14 _dd: well, you are forced to read-ID them until you find identify 12:27:15 <_dd> well, wasting one scroll isn't really that big a deal - and if you use an id scroll to id the scroll, you're still wasting one scroll... 12:27:47 <_dd> most scrolls aren't so rare that losing one of them would be a huge setback 12:27:54 it's not exactly what i would call a no brainer in any case 12:28:00 -!- Morphy_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:28:01 my brain is involved at least =P 12:28:13 <_dd> well in any case it's more a nobrainer than with potions :p 12:28:33 <_dd> with potions, there are potentially dire consequences with quaff-id 12:29:02 arguably this is a bad thing IMO 12:29:17 <_dd> mutation, decay, degeneration... scrolls have nothing comparable 12:29:27 we should encourage ID-by-use 12:29:41 <_dd> i disagree... 12:29:49 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30:11 <_dd> if that's the case, why require id:ing at all in the first place? what purpose does it serve then other than to annoy players? 12:30:37 because there are some interesting decisions? 12:30:41 <_dd> i think the potions work fine at the moment... you have to either wait until you find id scrolls or take your chances and risk mutation/decay/etc... 12:30:55 <_dd> there's a real decision involved with potions currently 12:31:15 <_dd> with scrolls, at least in the early game, it's pretty much "read every unknown scroll you find" 12:31:19 no it isn't 12:31:31 at the very very least you should wait until you find two of a scroll in early game 12:31:38 <_dd> bluh 12:31:56 <_dd> well ok but still 12:31:58 I think the ID-by-use adds a randomness and almost forces people to think about what they're going to face next and whether they should ID their potions now/later, etc 12:32:01 <_dd> that's a minor concern 12:32:31 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:33 randomness factor* 12:32:46 would it be sane if i suggested removing potions of mutation? 12:33:07 <_dd> why 12:33:27 because they're the only potion that people really freak out about pseudo-IDing 12:33:35 <_dd> so why remove them 12:33:37 Only if you want mutations to be like ADOM mutations and something players should never touch 12:33:43 to make them not freak out about it 12:34:00 <_dd> so then you want potions to be less interesting? 12:34:00 At least it seems as if different (good) players use different approaches. My question was mostly about whether less ?id is needed :) 12:34:02 _dd: I guess I don't really understand what you would like to see... a scroll that can kill you when read? 12:34:05 also i don't really like them even when they're identified 12:34:26 <_dd> elliptic, i'd just like to see scrolls with more "interesting" effects, such as with potions 12:34:26 dpeg: Less ?id and something akin to Detect Magic? 12:34:31 "interesting" 12:34:32 _dd, well, it's more a matter of perception 12:34:44 blinking scroll is pretty interesting IMO! 12:34:45 <_dd> scrolls that force you to think the same way potions do, whether you want to take the risk of use-id or not 12:34:47 so is teleportation 12:34:52 I know that I have died in games because I was too stingy with use-id. 12:34:56 i am not one of the players who fear !mutation, and i thiink that fear is really overstated 12:35:09 * dtsund agrees with mikee_ 12:35:31 fwiw, I'm more concerned about wasting a half-dozen or more good potions than about !mutation 12:35:41 <_dd> decay can be even worse if you happen to drink it and not have a pot of curing on hand 12:35:57 i agree, and yet people do not seem to fear this 12:36:01 I share elliptic's fear. 12:36:07 well decay is a lot rarer at least 12:36:13 decay doesn't really exist, so yeah 12:36:17 not much to be afraid of there :P 12:36:21 -!- Utis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:32 speaking more of fear: my greatest fear about pseudo-ID is needing to use something and not knowing if i have it 12:36:34 there is also the suggestion to make potion of decay work differently 12:36:34 I think the only potions worth seriously worrying about there are speed and cure mutatino. 12:36:47 instantly rot some HP rather than give you the rot status and do nothing if you have curing 12:36:54 <_dd> well i just recently found a pot of decay on level 5 or so 12:36:57 elliptic: yes, I agree 12:37:07 <_dd> drank it and lost half my max hp 12:37:08 dtsund: heal wounds, curing, might 12:37:19 <_dd> so at that point i just quit... 12:37:26 Everything else is either too common to care about losing one or so important that you need to know its ID immediately 12:37:39 _dd: well, why did you drink it? 12:37:50 <_dd> i tried to use-id it 12:37:54 did you have two of them? 12:37:58 it is very rare to get decay like that, though. the last time that happened to me was in like 4.26b =P 12:37:58 <_dd> nope 12:38:08 and i am a fan of drinking weird stuff i find on the ground 12:38:12 use-IDing makes no sense if you are out of combat and have only one potion 12:38:21 a surprising number of people don't seem to understand this 12:38:40 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:47 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38:52 <_dd> why should you use-id potions in combat 12:39:00 desperation 12:39:09 yes, desperation 12:39:09 <_dd> well yeah, that 12:39:14 <_dd> i've done that 12:39:33 <_dd> but usually i use-id pots until i id at least curing & heal wounds 12:39:37 <_dd> in the early game 12:39:37 anyway the point is that randomly drinking a single-potion stack for fun is not a rational thing to do 12:39:56 so please don't base arguments about ID on playing like that 12:40:20 <_dd> well that seems a bit "spoilery" to me 12:40:23 no... 12:40:42 _dd: No, that's common sense. 12:40:50 it's- yeah that 12:41:31 <_dd> why 12:41:38 _dd: if you want curing and HW, you would go for largest stacks 12:41:48 <_dd> well that's what i mean 12:41:55 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:56 (and that's what everybody intuitively does, no spoilers needed) 12:42:04 <_dd> a new player isn't likely to know which potions are more common and which are rare 12:42:08 Because if you only have one of the potion, you gain nothing but ID information from drinking it 12:42:17 <_dd> so it's something you have to know about the game before you can use that "common sense" about it 12:42:19 and you lose in lots of ways 12:42:21 <_dd> therefore spoilery 12:42:23 And then, since you have none of the potion left, you have nothing. 12:42:24 _dd: ????? 12:42:26 by that logic a new player isn't likely to know that potions that heal you exist 12:42:27 _dd: come on 12:42:59 * dtsund finds himself in the peculiar position of supporting the DevTeam in an argument about ID 12:43:04 haha 12:43:12 <_dd> i don't really have an issue with the potion id game in any case 12:43:30 I think some Ossuary might hand out !decay, btw. 12:44:02 wasn't there some autoinscribe implemented for items gotten from a portal? 12:44:14 Is this a good time to argue against obfuscation of weapon enchantment? 12:44:14 was removed, I believe 12:44:15 it was unimplemented I think? 12:44:20 yes, I really liked it 12:44:23 dtsund: obfuscation? 12:44:25 i thought it was ok too 12:44:28 dtsund: how do you do it? 12:44:31 Er, hiding the ID. 12:44:46 dpeg: I removed all ID from Light, and that includes weapon enchantment. 12:44:56 But the specific issue I have about weapon enchantment is this: 12:45:04 I'm actually sympathetic to the idea of removing all ID 12:45:14 me too 12:45:26 A player with intimate knowledge of the game's internals can count hits vs. misses and turns-to-destroy-plants to estimate it. 12:45:38 elliptic: I believe that move makes the early game duller, but I haven't played Light yet. 12:45:38 <_dd> anyway my rationale with potions has been, even if you drink a potion from a stack of one, you get the id information from it, so you'll know the potion when you see the next one... and if you use-id a potion in combat situation and it happens to be poison or some crap like that, then you're just more screwed... maybe i'm wrong about everything but that's how i've been playing anyway 12:45:38 some subtleties of play would be lost, but the gain in simplicity might be worth it 12:46:02 _dd: the point is that "you'll know the potion when you see the next one" doesn't help at all 12:46:10 you might as well wait until you get the next one before drinking 12:46:16 why drink from a stack of one when you have no guarantee that you'll find another for when you need it, yeah 12:46:19 unless: emergency 12:46:35 better to have that one unid'd thing to maybe save you in a desperate combat situation even though you don't know what it is 12:46:37 the only rational reason is if you're afraid of item destruction 12:46:40 mikee_, elliptic: did you play Light? 12:46:43 but it's too rare to worry about that 12:46:43 than to have identified speed already but not be carrying any 12:46:52 dpeg, no, i've only spectated it 12:47:12 <_dd> well anyway, it doesn't really matter 12:47:16 once i have curing and hw identified, though, there are very few that would help in a desperate combat situation 12:47:30 and berserk rage can very easily backfire in such a situation 12:47:32 <_dd> i guess i'll wait until i have 2 pots from now on, see if i play better that way 12:47:53 -!- elliott has joined ##crawl-dev 12:47:55 dtsund: I don't find that argument at all compelling because I've never heard of anyone actually doing it and the gain is so tiny 12:48:05 * dpeg is convinced that Light threw out the baby with the water. 12:48:19 what a morbid phrase =P 12:48:20 it requires finding plant(s) and wasting a bunch of turns, and also having weapons with low skill 12:48:27 mikee_: don 12:48:30 <_dd> i wouldn't like removing id from the game completely 12:48:30 t you say so? 12:48:34 which you care about the enchantment 12:48:50 elliptic: It's boring, but strictly optimal; it's just that nobody ever finds it worth the boredo. 12:48:53 dpeg: I haven't played Light, no 12:48:57 dtsund: no it isn't 12:48:59 strictly optimal in light 12:49:04 I already explained why it isn't strictly optimal 12:49:06 dpeg, haven't heard that one in a while! 12:49:11 "wasting a bunch of turns" 12:49:12 although actually i guess piety still exists in light 12:49:19 so yeah, not even strictly optimal there 12:49:27 i do know it, though, yes 12:49:31 Well, you can estimate it in regular combat. 12:50:13 in most cases the weapon you want to ench-id is one you have skill in or are gaining skill in so simply using it will eventually id it for you 12:50:16 dtsund: then there is the cost of using an un-IDed weapon in regular combat 12:50:28 and yeah, 8 skill or something means guaranteed identification anyway 12:50:43 but that's a newism 12:51:18 if i don't have skill in it, then either it's the early game...or why would i be using it 12:51:36 I just don't see this as something to worry about at all... yes, someone who knows the gritty details of combat math has a tiny advantage, but that's *already true* 12:51:36 Ah, I didn't know the requisite skill was that low 12:51:38 elliptic: how much hp do you think rot should rot, by the way? 12:51:51 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:52:04 because knowing the gritty details means you know what your chances are of getting one-shot or one-shotting the monster or whatever 12:52:11 I'd say base it on max HP 12:52:33 MarvinPA: 3-5 maybe? 12:52:45 dtsund: why hurt characters with higher max HP? 12:52:59 (more rot means more consumables needed to cure it) 12:53:12 ...yeah, my suggestion was bad. 12:53:17 MarvinPA: or 2-4 or something 12:53:31 MarvinPA: also I assume you mean potion of decay :P 12:53:39 yeah 12:53:40 will random2 be involved 12:53:45 probably 12:53:46 random2 is always involved 12:53:52 Import rnz from NetHack and use that 12:54:03 just replace random2 with rnz 12:54:10 then players with the source won't have any advantage 12:54:14 because they won't know what's going on, either 12:54:53 random2(rnz) 12:55:24 what actually is rnz? i saw noodl's spectacular hydrastorm spell and people were mentioning rnz but i have no idea what it does :P 12:55:36 MarvinPA: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Rnz 12:55:48 Read that and know fear. 12:55:50 MarvinPA: it is a random number generating function that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever 12:55:57 haha 12:56:02 "rnz produces such a bizarre distribution that it is hard to tell what the original programmer had in mind. It's quite possible that it was meant to be some distribution with Z in the name, but its construction doesn't seem to suggest one." 12:56:15 distribution: "unique" 12:56:31 the mathematical analysis is great 12:56:43 there's an excellent goal 12:58:02 http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/File:Rnz100.svg i like the clifts 12:58:44 haha 13:00:22 -!- Lawman_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:01:33 A radical idea I recently had: secret doors are gone, and I see no good reasons to like mechanical traps, so those should go, too. OTOH, shafts and Zot traps are great, so I'd hate to see those. Now, T&D skill for two or three trap types is silly. What about removing mechanical traps (vaults may use them, perhaps) and the T&D skill, and linking trap detection to Dex? 13:01:57 gotta go, back later 13:02:05 Could just link to Dodging 13:02:09 i had the same idea! 13:02:13 it's in my crawl fork 13:02:37 yeah, sounds good to me as well 13:02:58 dpeg: +1 13:04:55 doesn't T&D also nominally affect something with doors 13:05:06 or is that just secret doors (which are now gone) 13:05:09 Zannick: The chance of creaking noisily. 13:05:19 Stealth also affects it. 13:05:30 that's pretty silly, but that's what i thought 13:05:34 that could definitely just be tied to stealth+dex, yeah 13:05:39 might as well just do stealth for that 13:08:11 dpeg++ 13:08:31 did you just increase the number of dpegs? 13:08:34 yes 13:09:01 I might suggest only giving a chance to detect traps when you actually step on them, pressing "s" if you think there's a trap there is a bit silly IMO 13:09:10 especially since there'll be no actual need for searching since there won't be secret doors 13:10:12 i'm not sure i like that idea with the way some vaults are set up now 13:10:36 like blundering around the zot:5 vault without being able to use s sounds bad 13:10:43 don't you automatically detect a trap when you step on it (and activate it) 13:11:05 Zannick: I mean, detect and stop you walking onto it, as can happen now 13:11:10 mikee_: right 13:11:12 oh, yes 13:11:52 mikee_: I guess the advantage of s in places you know there are going to be lots of traps is it forces you to either risk stumbling into a bunch of traps or else slows you down a bunch 13:12:14 how about do that but tie it to str instead so everyone has to raise str a bunch :) 13:12:59 <|amethyst> Yeah, I'm not so sure about using Dex... I mean, I know Int is overpowered anyway, but it seems like perception would be closer to Int than to Dex 13:14:36 maybe to xl? 13:14:55 if all the traps are magical, you could tie it to MR!! (this is a bit dumb) 13:15:07 <|amethyst> shafts and webs aren't magical 13:15:13 actually I like dtsund's idea of linking it to dodging 13:15:20 or perhaps just to EV 13:15:31 mikee_: XL is overpowered 13:15:41 <|amethyst> are we talking about *noticing* traps, or *avoiding* them? 13:15:52 <|amethyst> I guess with elliott's suggestion they'd be the same thing 13:16:09 I think both... I suggested that the latter be the only way to notice traps, yeah 13:16:53 <|amethyst> wouldn't that be a summoning buff? :) 13:21:49 <|amethyst> !learn edit mauricescumming[1] s/ce.s/ce's/ 13:21:49 mauricescumming[1/8]: maurice's cumming 13:21:59 <|amethyst> should just !learn del that instead 13:23:50 -!- rangmere has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:30:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 13:38:27 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:06 -!- Orionstein has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:50:09 -!- tJener has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:50:18 back 13:50:28 -!- xnavy has quit [Killed (calvino.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 13:50:28 -!- xnavy_ is now known as xnavy 13:50:55 Hey, so much support for the trap idea :) 13:52:40 Getting rid of 's' is a noble goal, but more work, imo. I suggested Dex to spot traps, not to avoid their effect. 13:53:20 right 13:53:40 that seems weird -- dex makes sense for avoiding traps to me but not spotting them. but, gameplay over realism 13:54:14 elliott: sure, but Dodging doesn't really fit either. And we probably don't want to use Int. Could squeeze spotting traps in Stealth, I guess. 13:55:10 I was thinking stealth because you can rationalise it as "moving carefully" or something... but "and then train stealth to 10 on your mifi so you can avoid zot traps" is kind of yucky, especially since nobody is going to figure that out without being told it 13:55:17 I guess dex is the best option 13:56:19 or we agree that there's simply nothing to be done about shafts and Zot traps (==> no sensing). Would need quite some changes, e.g. to Zot:5 zot traps. 13:56:54 <|amethyst> webs as well 13:57:07 true 13:57:21 <|amethyst> I guess we could get rid of disarming, since it's ony relevant for webs (and alarm traps in zotdef) 13:57:31 <|amethyst> s/ony/only/ 13:57:31 what about teleportation traps and such? those would still be sensed? 13:57:34 If we go back to "traps can only be spotted at range 1" (it was like this until DCSS 0.4 or so), then Dex makes actually a bit of sense. 13:57:59 What trap types would survive? Shaft, Zot, web, teleportation -- any others? 13:58:16 alarm, maybe net? 13:58:23 <|amethyst> net's mechanical 13:58:27 <|amethyst> golubria 13:58:37 sure but it's better than the other mechanical traps in theory 13:58:41 is golubria naturally occurring? 13:58:48 net is okay 13:58:52 <|amethyst> no, only from the spell, so most of this is irrelevant 13:58:53 MarvinPA: why only in theory? 13:59:02 Alarm is also decent, yes. 13:59:23 net just seems quite rare i guess 13:59:39 * dpeg fears for his trap run Ossuary map. 13:59:54 clearly mechanical traps should be a player creation 13:59:59 Right, net has the problem that it's mostly "nothing happens". 14:00:04 set a net trap here, get a monster to walk into it 14:00:04 there's pressure plates 14:00:09 I guess those would stay :P 14:00:16 All traps but Zot, shaft and alarm share this problem. 14:00:30 -!- dg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:59 zot and shaft are the most interesting traps anyway :p 14:01:05 clearly, all mechanical traps should also summon 14:01:17 teleportation traps could be made undetectable but single-use or something 14:01:38 so you can't lure anything to it 14:01:42 (because if you detect it it gets "disarmed") 14:02:30 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:03:48 Zannick: I did propose that, yes. But damage traps are still not interesting :) 14:03:56 elliott: limited use, yes 14:04:24 no, they're not 14:05:04 but rats as monsters aren't very interesting either 14:05:48 an even more radical option would be: make zot traps pre-revealed (so that they're there for monsters to invoke them), make shafts, teleportation traps, alarm traps and presure plates undetectable and unavoidable, remove other trap types 14:05:52 but I suspect this is too radical :p 14:05:57 at least they don't appear much when you get further in the dungeon 14:06:21 elliott: not bad 14:06:23 <|amethyst> I'd rather just remove shafts etc than make them undetectable and unavoidable 14:06:30 |amethyst: heretic! 14:06:43 * dpeg slaps |amethyst with a shaft. 14:06:43 oh, and make teleportation/alarm/pressure plates single-use, if that's done 14:06:44 the low-level boring traps (and shafts) are good to help train t&d for when you need it to avoid zot traps 14:06:50 <|amethyst> what's the point? "ha ha, the game screwed you over. No, there's nothing you could have done." 14:07:04 |amethyst: shafts are not an instadeath 14:07:06 |amethyst: the point is that getting shafted creates really interesting situations. 14:07:15 <|amethyst> why does it have to be a trap? 14:07:23 you have to decide whether to work your way back up or plow on, you have to deal with ood stuff, you have to avoid stuff a lot more (so no autoexplore, say) 14:07:24 <|amethyst> why not randomly send the player a few levels deeper 14:07:38 |amethyst: well, that's what it would be 14:07:42 |amethyst: this is what the shaft does :) Need something that feels natural, no? 14:07:45 except getting shafted twice in a row usually makes for really bad times 14:07:49 (except that you could jump back down it again afterwards) 14:07:59 what if taking a shaft were optional and had a timed incentive 14:08:03 <|amethyst> dpeg: but why base it on stepping on a certain tile? 14:08:10 <|amethyst> if you'll never see the tile as a shaft 14:08:17 |amethyst: resting shouldn't shaft you IMO 14:08:29 -!- Exister_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:08:49 <|amethyst> hm, that's a good point 14:08:53 mikee_: serious? 14:09:05 mikee_: make labyrinth exits shaft you down a few levels 14:09:10 :) 14:09:17 what if activating a shaft gave you an option, based on dex, to move off it and not fall down? 14:09:17 Players see shafts. 14:09:24 Zannick: Str 14:09:25 |amethyst: ...so when you get shafted you are either exploring, or retreating 14:09:35 which are both interesting situations to be shoved down a few levels in, I think 14:09:42 dpeg: the idea is reflex, which is usually a dex thing 14:09:56 (it also makes retreating riskier) 14:09:59 Zannick: I know, but I could imagine using force not to fall down. 14:10:03 str could work as a pull-myself-out-of-the-shaft 14:10:24 The worst thing about shafts is that they're directly stolen from Nethack. In all other aspects, they're glorious, imo. 14:10:24 Just be careful of entering NetHack-land 14:10:28 I think people playing seriously would always choose to move off 14:10:30 <|amethyst> elliott: unless you, say, write some lua to keep track of every square you've every stepped on 14:10:39 because people playing seriously are paranoid :p 14:10:41 <|amethyst> elliott: then you could often safely retreat 14:10:48 |amethyst: that's a known issue. 14:10:54 dpeg: what are those _other_ aspects? 14:10:59 elliott, what if the incentive were something dangerous being created on the level that has the shaft =P 14:11:02 |amethyst: there are ways to do traps that avoid that 14:11:27 mikee_: so you either have to deal with out-of-depth stuff, or deal with out-of-depth stuf? :) 14:11:28 bhaak: Out of curiosity, do you have it set up to ping you when NetHack is mentioned? 14:11:32 yes! 14:11:32 <|amethyst> just make every step taken have an X% chance to shaft you 14:11:52 dtsund: no, i have a ping on dpeg 14:11:52 |amethyst: that is basically the idea, yes 14:11:55 elliott, the difference is you will know what the ood stuff is in the first case 14:11:55 bhaak: I can only discuss this with you once you repaired "You fall into a pit. ... The spikes were poisoned." bug. 14:12:01 you decide whether something is a shaft or tele or alarm trap on each step 14:12:08 dpeg: already done 14:12:12 technically this means you can scum for those by walking backwards and forth forever, but... why would you 14:12:28 bhaak: hm, okay. Crawl shafts are cool for the same reason that Nethack trapdoors are cool. 14:12:35 <|amethyst> elliott: hm... diving 14:12:38 it also means that the longer you spend on the level the more it gets covered with traps, but if they are all single-use they can just turn back to floor again 14:12:48 this loses jumping down shafts later on, but eh 14:13:16 |amethyst: won't get an impressive turn count if you walk back and forth for a thousand turns... I guess if you are trying the D:27-at-XL-1 thing 14:13:24 I lost track. Who's against keeping shafts mostly as they are? (Assuming we're all on the same page about mechanical trap removal.) 14:13:38 <|amethyst> I like keeping them mostly as they are 14:13:47 i agree with amethyst 14:13:49 shafts seem pretty fine to me 14:13:50 <|amethyst> my opposition is to making them undetectable and unavoidable 14:13:59 Okay. Was a bit worried about mikee_ :) 14:14:01 * elliott thinks just removing mechanical traps would be a big improvement, so no objections there... just I also think the other types of trap could be done better too 14:14:02 <|amethyst> since that's not a trap, it's a fuck-you 14:14:03 dpeg: ah, i misread the statement. 14:14:32 |amethyst: hey, we were discussing whether to detect the remaining traps with Dex, Stealth or something else :) 14:14:43 |amethyst: I wonder how likely people actually are to avoid traps early on in the first place, which is when they are most likely to be dangerous? 14:14:45 Hm. I wonder if I should bring up DoomRL here. 14:14:49 it's not like many people train T&D that early 14:15:05 elliott: this is always true. But I've seen so many discussions turn towards more and more ambitious goals, so that in the end, nothing happened. 14:15:14 dtsund: please do, what is it? 14:15:16 dpeg: right 14:15:21 yeah, the important change will be t&d, since fewer traps and no secret doors means that the skill is basically an endgame skill that you can only train in the endgame 14:15:31 well, midgame 14:15:33 dpeg: by all means my proposal is irrelevant compared to the much more important good of removing mechanical traps :) 14:15:46 Zannick: I am convinced that T&D should go and trap detection be subsumed somewhere else. 14:15:48 DoomRL doesn't have undetected traps; instead, it has lakes and levers. 14:16:01 Lakes are huge (think: room-size), and damage when walked through. 14:16:12 Levers have random effects when pulled, which may be bad. 14:16:35 <|amethyst> dpeg: hm, both make a little sense... I like the idea that it's something players can affect, so I'd prefer Stealth 14:16:37 do monsters pull levers, or is it just fountain-quaffing? 14:16:44 !apt stealth 14:16:45 Stealth: Ce: -4, DD: 2, DE: 2, Dg: -1, Dr: -1, Dr[black]: -1, Dr[green]: -1, Dr[grey]: -1, Dr[mottled]: -1, Dr[pale]: -1, Dr[purple]: -1, Dr[red]: -1, Dr[white]: -1, Dr[yellow]: -1, Ds: -1, Fe: 3, Gh: 1, Ha: 3, HE: 1, HO: -2, Hu: 0, Ko: 3, Mf: 1, Mi: -2, Mu: -2, Na: 5!, Og: -2, Op: 3, SE: 1, Sp: 4, Te: 0, Tr: -5*, Vp: 4 14:16:48 !apt t&d 14:16:48 Could not understand "t&d" 14:16:50 !apt traps 14:16:51 Traps: Ce: -2, DD: 1, DE: 0, Dg: -1, Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Dr[mottled]: 0, Dr[pale]: 0, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: 0, Dr[white]: 0, Dr[yellow]: 0, Ds: -1, Fe: 2, Gh: -1, Ha: 0, HE: 0, HO: 0, Hu: 0, Ko: 0, Mf: -1, Mi: 0, Mu: -2, Na: 0, Og: -2, Op: 1, SE: 0, Sp: 3!, Te: 0, Tr: -4*, Vp: 0 14:17:00 looks like old shaft behaviour is getting a "landslide victory" hehehe he h 14:17:00 i don't think many serious doomrl players use levers at all except in special circumstances 14:17:03 Fountain-quaffing, though when a lever is pulled, it'll do the same thing on subsequent pulls (unless its power is exhausted) 14:17:28 (i'm pro old shafts, too. (as a nethack player i see nothing wrong with them!)) 14:17:40 actually yes, when we played doomrl i actually referred to the levers as sparkling fountains 14:17:42 the lakes are interesting, though in Crawl we'd have to use something else (leviation) -- and it is done: think of the miasmatic Swamp end 14:18:06 Yeah, but it's rare. 14:18:22 dtsund: yes, but proof of concept to be used more often 14:18:22 Er, rare in Crawl; lakes in DoomRL are extremely common. 14:18:34 -!- white_noise has quit [Client Quit] 14:18:35 <|amethyst> (when I say "stealth" btw, I mean the skill, not the attribute---armour, elven boots, etc shouldn't make it more likely to notice a trap) 14:18:53 doomrl's dev team eventually decided to guarantee that lakes have a normal path through them, too 14:18:59 As usual, best to leave this to the coder =) 14:19:03 which imo was the right decision 14:21:31 <|amethyst> !tell kilobyte ah, there appear to be staffless arachne tiles too, at #5966 14:21:31 |amethyst: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:23:27 !seen elliott 14:23:27 I last saw elliott at Tue Aug 28 19:16:37 2012 UTC (6m 50s ago) saying do monsters pull levers, or is it just fountain-quaffing? on ##crawl-dev. 14:23:30 !seen elliptic 14:23:30 I last saw elliptic at Tue Aug 28 19:16:08 2012 UTC (7m 22s ago) saying elliott: yes on ##crawl. 14:23:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 14:23:44 elliptic: do you have an opinion? 14:23:53 about what? 14:24:27 merging t&d with stealth will require some apt changes or it'll be a great buff for some and a minor nerf for others 14:24:45 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:16 elliptic: remove mechanical traps 14:25:25 dpeg: my opinion is yes :) 14:25:29 elliptic: keep shaft, Zot, alarm, web 14:25:34 elliptic: remove T&D 14:25:37 dpeg: not tele? 14:25:40 oh, yes 14:25:47 Q: what to replace T&D with? 14:25:48 pressure plates too, although that's more like N trap types I guess 14:26:00 dpeg: yeah, +1 from me to the general proposal 14:26:12 One idea is that traps can only be spotted if adjacent (perhaps just one try? no more 's'), and then use Dex 14:26:16 elliptic: ok, cool 14:26:45 But we got stuck on the question, and I am worried this leads to an impasse, as ever. 14:26:50 dpeg: I'd call Zot traps the worst ones, not the best 14:26:50 kilobyte: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:27:42 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:57 zot traps have monster invocation, which is great 14:28:07 kilobyte: I don't really care, as long as shafts stay. Zot traps are at least dangerous and have some flavour. 14:29:02 unlike mechanical ones, which give meaningful choices (do I risk to take the damage, or go the other way), they're nasty enough it's basically a statue standing there which you need to blink/etc over 14:29:16 and even worse, they have monster invocation 14:30:08 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:18 elliptic, mikee, MarvinPA: what do you think about Zot traps? 14:30:38 i am ok with them 14:30:40 kilobyte: what's wrong with monster invocation? 14:30:59 also I've never had a mechanical trap give a meaningful choice 14:31:13 kilobyte: Removal of monster invocation is the first change I made in Light. 14:31:28 which has two problems: 1. why exactly the same trap would work differently for allies than enemies?, 2. the monster is going to repeatedly invoke the same trap, so you are likely to get 8 bad mutations (delayed via glow) in a couple turns, etc, even if you know about the trap 14:31:49 hostiles have the power of the orb of zot, you don't :p 14:31:49 monsters don't repeatedly invoke the same trap 14:31:53 have you played crawl :P 14:32:13 elliptic: I had to make that decision three or so times... not a reason to keep such traps, of course 14:32:14 elliptic: They will if there's a crowd pursuing you. 14:32:28 dtsund: sure, multiple monsters 14:32:32 elliptic: yeah, and I remember those 8 bad muts pretty well 14:32:39 the list of effects could probably be better than just plain miscasts but the concept seems fine to me 14:32:46 maybe some of the miscast effects should be toned down 14:32:47 also, most of the time zot traps do not give glow 14:33:00 dtsund: or if the monster wanders due to a crowd of animals 14:33:00 -!- Codrus has quit [Quit: o/] 14:33:20 so I'm not very interested in one time you got unlucky with one zot trap 14:33:20 ok, Zot traps seem to be more tricky 14:33:27 kilobyte: are you fine with my more modest proposal? 14:33:38 like MarvinPA, I see nothing wrong with the concept of Zot trap 14:33:54 kilobyte: I think the path your entered with axing axe traps was good, we should go further. 14:34:05 they are more interesting than most traps because of monster invocation, IMO 14:34:24 elliptic: I got that much glow in just two invocations, and couldn't do anything about it 14:34:54 kilobyte: that's a problem with the list of effects, not with the trap itself or monster invocation 14:35:04 I've gotten 7 mutations from stepping on a zot trap once, it happens 14:35:05 "more interesting than most traps" is like "a politician slightly more honest than most" 14:35:10 I'll admit at once that all of the remaining traps could be improved but they all have some potential, I believe. Mechanical traps are just so rarely interesting, because there's no monster around. 14:35:20 possible it shouldn't happen, but this discussion isn't really relevant right now 14:35:36 elliptic: and what about symmetry? How a trap knows which of two hostile parties to help? 14:35:52 "the power of zot" 14:35:54 kilobyte: it's a "Zot" trap, clearly it is controlled by the intelligence behind the orb of zot 14:35:59 I see no problem there 14:36:02 It's rather spoilery that monsters can invoke them against you. 14:36:20 dtsund: that too 14:36:36 so monsters automatically know where the traps are? or do they have to check for traps too? 14:36:47 why do people use "spoilery" to describe things that you can see happen once and then understand 14:36:56 this has always confused me 14:36:59 spoilery as in explained to you by the game when it happens and probably described in the manual somewhere 14:37:10 spoilery like the fact that monsters hit you or orc priests smite you is spoilery 14:37:13 maybe there could just be more descriptive text than the loud zot as a warning 14:37:32 does the feature description for zot traps say monsters can invoke it? probably it should 14:37:34 link_108: I don't think they actively seek out Zot traps to invoke them against you in any case. 14:37:36 kilobyte: There's obviously no agreement regarding Zot, and that's bad. But I think there might be concensus on my actual proposal. 14:37:36 like an aura surrounds you and then fades, or something vaguely threatening 14:37:51 elliptic: giving the Orb intelligence, and making it capable of acting remotely, perceiving the situation well enough for friend-or-foe recognition but not willing to make any other use of that knowledge? That fails the fridge logic test, badly. 14:37:53 elliott: There's a difference between the two cases. 14:38:28 Discovering orc priest smiting: "Oh, I guess that's a thing they can do." 14:38:35 dstund: gotcha, that definitely makes me feel a bit better about it! 14:38:41 Discovering Zot invocation: "What the hell? I mean, what the flipping hell?" 14:38:48 Oh Trog, why is it always that complicated. 14:38:55 * dpeg recalls why he retired. 14:39:01 kilobyte: "trap" - it can't act remotely in general, it is restricted by the trap 14:39:12 ...well, you know, I am pretty sure many people think smiting falls under "what the hell" too :) 14:39:21 also I didn't say the *orb* has intelligence... the game describes it as the power of zot 14:39:23 hardly a lack of complaints about how unfair it is 14:39:34 dtsund: smiting is a lot more likely to kill you 14:39:38 yeah, but if the Orb knows about you, it can tell a Pan lord where you are 14:40:20 kilobyte: you mean like happens on the orb run? 14:40:25 seriously, what do you have against the current flavour of it being the "power of zot", given the opportunity to act against you by the trap 14:40:40 so the orb is like the one ring in lots? 14:40:44 "cerebov, he's entering lair and he's stuck with a cursed mace. now is your chance" 14:40:46 it is vague exactly how it works, and this is good 14:40:48 I'd say most players assume the Orb is just a magical artefact, not an intelligent being. 14:41:05 lotr* 14:41:13 kilobyte: when did I say that the orb is an intelligent being 14:41:20 yeah, and D:$ is mount doom 14:41:25 where you destroy the orb for realz 14:41:51 seriously I can't stand arguing with you about this sort of thing, you put words in my mouth that I never said 14:42:11 elliott: it's the Pan lords who seek you, only after being alerted of your deed. There's no mention of the Orb being anything but a trinket. 14:42:18 I suggest to replace T&D by a single Dex check when next to a trap. 14:42:37 I was going to ask who alerts them but this is too silly even for me 14:43:31 ignoring other silly stuff, dpeg's actual proposal sounds good to me, anyway 14:43:51 So 's' would be gone, you cannot wait it out. This has consequences (some vaults, Zot:5). 14:44:15 There could be a different check when stepping on the trap. 14:44:16 elliptic: when asked about how it manages to tell friend from foe at a distance, you said it is restricted to acting via the trap only 14:44:45 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:46 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:44:53 for a dumb item, there's no difference between the two parties 14:44:53 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 14:45:13 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:45:28 dpeg: that is basically the same as giving double the chance to avoid stepping on it when you do, right? 14:45:45 -!- mikee_ has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:55 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 14:46:08 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 14:46:19 MarvinPA: yeah, the detection idea is good 14:46:27 elliott: yes 14:46:31 dpeg: right 14:47:08 that version has slightly nicer flavour, in that you use your dexterity to avoid the trap... doesn't actually matter since they're almost identical in mechanics, of course 14:47:48 elliott: well, next to the trap it might make some sense that you can feel it (Dex). Not from 10 metres afar. 14:47:55 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:47:56 right 14:49:50 Implementable or what? 14:50:07 I think it also goes along with the idea that assassins/rogues use traps and dex, should also use the same to disarm them 14:50:43 I think everyone can agree on removing mechanical traps at the very least :p 14:51:39 elliott: yes. But I don't think that T&D should stay in a game where traps are few and far between. It's already problematic now. 14:51:52 agreed 14:51:56 but what are you going to do about Dungeon Master titles?! 14:52:15 make it a title for getting all skills to 27 14:52:21 ++ 14:52:46 dungeon master is old hat anyway, stylish invocation titles are where it's at these days 14:52:51 /quit 14:52:53 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 14:53:26 MarvinPA: :) 14:53:31 elliott: most gas traps are no good, too 14:53:37 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:43 s/most // 14:53:55 MarvinPA: hell yeah :p 14:53:55 oh, I forgot gas traps exist 14:54:02 I have no real opinion on them 14:54:57 gas traps are either irrelevant, or item destruction with no warning (unless you pay the skill exp tax) 14:55:04 I don't much like gas traps either, yes 14:55:14 -!- KKCryptic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:56:16 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:46 so they have to go... pity, they were done by a player, and I asked for them 14:57:53 -!- johnny0 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:58:05 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: bye] 14:58:28 dpeg: might be kept as trap-like effects in vaults 14:58:35 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 14:59:07 -!- Pthing has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:36 kilobyte: yes 15:00:07 I wouldn't purge mechanical traps from the code either, as I believe that my Ossuary makes good use of them *blush* (and other vaults too). Just no more random generation. 15:00:12 you step in, the door slams shut, the room gets filled with gas 15:00:32 <|amethyst> dpeg: how would disarming work? 15:00:45 <|amethyst> dpeg: (this is still relevant for web traps even if mech are purged) 15:01:03 |amethyst: by cutting them 15:01:17 <|amethyst> I mean, in terms of ability/skill checks 15:01:22 remove web traps? 15:01:26 ie, they can be something you can attack 15:01:28 We need them for Spider!? 15:01:33 ah, the other cut 15:01:58 Gas trap vaults? 15:02:01 <|amethyst> kilobyte: so an attack check? 15:02:02 they're more like shallow water than other types of traps 15:02:11 I was working on something like that at one point; I didn't think it worked very well. 15:02:55 Grunt: yes, I apologise. 15:03:01 ...for what? o_O 15:03:08 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: link_108] 15:04:14 Grunt: didn't I create that Implementable? 15:04:32 I don't remember seeing an implementable about this; I think I was working on them on my own. 15:05:02 phew, what a relief :) 15:05:06 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:05:20 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:30 -!- johnny0 has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:06 can't web traps just only be disarmed by escaping them? 15:07:17 dpeg: mechanical traps only in vaults could work, but it could be confusing to have a bunch of types of trap that are only encountered rarely; maybe the mechanical traps could be consolidated into one (maybe two) types? 15:07:27 I guess it is pretty obvious what they do from their names so maybe it is irrelevant 15:08:16 web traps can be destroyed by um... some stuff 15:08:24 i can't remember all of this stuff though 15:08:37 mikee_: fire? 15:08:44 cure webs 15:08:53 I meant, it was a proposal :) 15:08:57 so that the whole disarming thing could be removed entirely 15:08:58 certain monsters destroy them 15:09:04 elliott: I think it will be clear as soon as it happens. 15:09:05 i think fire actually doesn't 15:11:55 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:13 03elliptic 07stone_soup-0.11 * r93cbae190214 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: Fix the spell order in Book of Burglary (_Jordan_). 15:12:14 03elliptic * r2a9bb4fc965c 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: Fix the spell order in Book of Burglary (_Jordan_). 15:12:21 -!- frogbotherer has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:47 -!- ChongLi has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:13:22 elliptic: I cannot code... should I add the trap stuff to the 0.12 list? 15:14:18 dpeg: sounds reasonable (though it is probably too involved a thing for me to code either) 15:15:25 elliptic: there's a template with kilobyte's axe trap removal. 15:15:43 but I'll make a comment and ask for help 15:16:04 dpeg: just skip it 15:16:30 I don't want conflicts with glasnost 15:16:50 glasnost? 15:16:51 dpeg: would a patch implementing the detection system / removing random generation of mechanical traps be welcome? don't know if I'll have the free time to implement it, but I have looked at the trap detection code before so I have a basic idea of how it would be done, and I am always happy to expedite making traps less bothersome 15:17:08 elliott: sure, but let's wait what kilobyte says 15:17:15 <|amethyst> kilobyte: is there anything keeping glasnost from being merged now? 15:17:17 axing part of T&D could have been simplified if I knew that both parts are going out :p 15:17:23 yes, bad timing :) 15:17:27 <|amethyst> oh 15:17:31 |amethyst: time 15:17:39 glasnost = monster placement? 15:17:45 <|amethyst> dpeg: no secret doors 15:17:47 = secret door removal, I think 15:17:51 ah 15:17:56 no hiding stuff! 15:17:58 |amethyst: presumably the problem is existing vaults/runed door stuff? 15:18:06 and that 15:19:57 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 15:20:11 <|amethyst> dpeg: btw, you are apparently for sale http://pepnet.com/ShoppingUsers/ProductDetails/DPGPI-1875.aspx 15:20:26 <|amethyst> dpeg: for $600 / g 15:21:34 <|amethyst> dpeg: btw, for some reason I always though you could code, but chose not to 15:21:49 <|amethyst> btw, I use "btw" to much 15:22:35 |amethyst: I make a good price! 15:23:07 |amethyst: in some sense I can code, yes. But I couldn't find my way through crawl's source for the life of it. 15:23:15 "dPEG Biotinylation Reagents Chain length from amide to terminal carbonyl is 19.2 Angstroms. (M.W. 491.60)" that's one helpful description 15:23:39 I am all that, and more. 15:25:24 Man, I'm exactly the sort of person who *should* be able to understand that, and I think that description is very vague. 15:26:11 The context suggests it's a polypeptide, but PEG stands for polyethelyne glycol, which is a rather different things 15:26:14 *thing 15:26:26 there is only one thing for it 15:26:34 we must buy dPEG and perform experiments on it 15:26:38 <|amethyst> dtsund: maybe it's biotin bound to PEG ? 15:27:27 -!- Serfuzz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:42 The description suggests to me that this is not the case. 15:28:29 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:37 -!- test__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:50 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:29:53 -!- test__ is now known as mikee_ 15:30:25 My best guess would be a big ol' PEG chain with a carbonyl on one end and an amide on the other. 15:31:07 kilobyte: I skip adding something to the 0.12 planning page, b/c you remove random generation of mechanical traps as part of glasnost, or b/c it can wait until 0.13 (which it can)? 15:31:40 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 15:32:27 <|amethyst> dtsund: biotin on one end and N-hydroxysuccinimide on the other it appears 15:35:21 <|amethyst> dtsund: though that's for "NHS-PEG_4-Biotin"; not sure what the "d" is supposed to be 15:36:59 Wait, we're removing randomly generated mechanical traps now? 15:37:26 What, is the soon to be known as Traps skill going to just be the ....uh, skill? 15:37:44 <|amethyst> Lightli: that would be removed 15:37:47 skillfulness skill 15:38:08 <|amethyst> replaced by something like a dex check for the places where it's still relevant 15:38:14 Lightli: T&D removal is part of the proposal, yes 15:38:27 Not enough "remove Foo" in the changelog yet 15:39:06 So what about Zot traps? 15:39:09 <|amethyst> I'm going to make crawl-ultralight; you win by pressing , (to pick up the orb) then < (to go up the stairs) 15:39:50 You pick up the Orb of Zot. You are crushed under your load. You die... 15:39:55 That's easy, just make the only entry vault one wherein you start on top of the Orb of Zot (and all 15 runes) 15:40:31 <|amethyst> well, you also need to make it so you immediately die if you do anything else :) 15:40:46 <|amethyst> maybe start the player out sticky-flamed 15:41:28 A DD or a worshipper of Ely could survive 15:41:45 Lightli: have been discussed at length upthread... no concensus. But everyone was fine with removing (or rather, disabling random generation) of mechanical traos. 15:42:08 <|amethyst> Lightli: channel logs are available, see /topic for the URL 15:42:14 What about magical traps (i.e. Zot traps)? 15:42:21 -!- Lightli changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: trap 15:42:28 <|amethyst> err 15:42:32 uh 15:42:35 huh 15:42:36 uh 15:42:36 -!- dtsund changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 15:42:36 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:39 oops 15:42:57 !abyss Lightli 15:42:57 Lightli casts a spell. Lightli is devoured by a tear in reality! 15:43:01 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:14 -!- Morphy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:43:20 * dtsund wonders why this room isn't flagged to only allow ops to change the topic 15:43:22 Lightli: The whole channel is looking at you, between disapprovingly and scoldingly. 15:43:22 <|amethyst> 1learn add badirc Lightli changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: trap 15:43:27 it's a trap 15:43:50 I thought that /topic was a search function 15:44:03 <|amethyst> sorry, I was unclear 15:44:22 <|amethyst> I meant "type /topic to see the topic, which contains a link to the logs" 15:44:29 Oh 15:44:39 -!- rangmere has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:14 |amethyst: My client doesn't do that, so I think that may be a client specific thing. 15:45:15 zipcode is playing Xom... perhaps we will get a Xom patch soon :) 15:45:18 * dpeg is dreaming. 15:45:32 <|amethyst> Lightli: there is a search on that page, but it's easiest to scroll to about 12:59 today 15:45:44 OTOH, I can just scroll up to... not very long ago... to see it. 15:45:48 <|amethyst> dtsund: oh, hm 15:46:44 <|amethyst> I mean, any slash command is client-specific, but I thought /topic for view topic was fairly common 15:46:50 i was looking at the xom effect code and thinking how awful it was and trying to come up with a more reasonable way to decide between them 15:47:23 Mine lets me change it with /topic, but not view it. 15:47:41 and then the xom debug tests all gave 100% bad because i had no gift timeout in wizard mode 15:48:14 Zannick: the last input on Crawl I got from jpeg was a list of ideas for Xom (a few months ago). We agreed that Xom should do oomphy good things, and early on. 15:48:45 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:49:08 my actual protest was that, when trying to implement a xom effect idea, it was very tough to reason with the pseudo-poisson distribution, what the actual chance of it was 15:49:12 a 15:49:19 <|amethyst> wait, so Xom might become as good as no_god? 15:49:47 You suffer the terrible wrath of No God. 15:49:59 |amethyst: Hey, I've had at least one game where Xom was a net benefit. 15:50:06 And I don't play under him very often! 15:50:46 dpeg: could you announce the intent to remove the Traps skill, etc? 15:51:04 so dolorous and folks not on IRC currently can respond 15:51:31 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:51:40 kilobyte: sure... people will be happy to get c-r-d mails 15:51:47 Does anyone have opinions on DoomRL-style challenge games in Crawl? I think they could be a fun addition. 15:52:06 dtsund: what are they? 15:52:14 !lg * ktyp=trap 15:52:15 4979. dessos the Ducker (L3 FeMo), killed by triggering a dart trap in D:2 on 2012-08-28, with 92 points after 2068 turns and 0:10:14. 15:52:19 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:20 dpeg: The game's rules get altered in some way, usually to make the game harder. 15:52:22 !lg * ktyp=trap s=place 15:52:23 4979 games for * (ktyp=trap): 1999x D:1, 364x D:2, 286x D:5, 249x D:3, 236x D:7, 232x D:6, 225x D:8, 222x D:4, 179x D:9, 117x D:10, 80x D:11, 76x Ossuary, 48x Lair:4, 46x D:12, 45x Lair:8, 42x Lair:7, 38x Lair:5, 38x D:13, 34x Lair:1, 33x Lair:3, 31x Lair:6, 29x Lair:2, 27x D:14, 22x Orc:3, 21x Lair:9, 20x Orc:2, 16x Lair:10, 15x Lab, 14x Orc:1, 12x D:17, 12x D:16, 11x D:15, 8x Orc:4, 7x Swamp:5, ... 15:52:36 <|amethyst> I haven't played DoomRL, but I have heard of the Angel things... is the conduct actually enforced? 15:52:44 <|amethyst> or is this something different? 15:52:52 For example: the Angel of Max Carnage challenge maxes out all damage and to-hit rolls. 15:53:06 So everything does the maximum possible damage, both incoming and outgoing. 15:53:25 <|amethyst> aha 15:53:26 scroll down to Challenges here: http://doom.chaosforge.org/wiki/Game_Settings 15:53:27 Angel of Haste cuts the game length in half, giving you no compensation in lost experience. 15:53:40 Angel of Light Travel limits you to 5 inventory slots. 15:53:41 I'm sort of dubious about them for crawl 15:54:01 Sprints could change rules like this, imo. 15:54:01 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 15:54:03 (Light Travel only really works because ironman is enforced.) 15:54:06 I think they work well in doomrl because doomrl is a much simpler game 15:54:10 Angel of Xom shuffles all the branches randomly 15:54:12 monqy and elliott have done some actual testing of the max carnage mechanic for crawl 15:54:27 so they might have some valuable input 15:54:46 it goes badly when you don't change anything else 15:55:25 This is why it coudl work in a Sprint. 15:55:41 yes, sprint would be a good setting for it 15:56:36 mikee_: (I think there is going to be some randomness to damage in 41qys-crawl after all, for what it's worth; rewriting the combat code is the next thing on the list. so I'm not sure how much thorough testing of full-damage will actually happen... otoh, it should be fairly easy to flip a switch to restore that behaviour. nothing's set in stone, anyway) 15:56:56 restrictive conducts (like only being able to use certain item types) work much better in shorter games, while the mechanic-altering conducts are going to be difficult to make work well in a game of this complexity... maybe in sprint 15:56:57 yes, of course 15:57:13 elliott, well i am interested to see how it goes 15:57:33 <|amethyst> remove all randomness except for dungeon generation (which would happen once). Then share the RNG seed 15:57:35 mikee_: me too! 15:57:53 elliott, is passive berserking at least making it in 15:57:59 <|amethyst> then you can have people competing to shave 1 turn off a speedrun 15:58:02 you know this is the selling point for me 15:58:05 is passive berserking where trog just makes you go berserk when he feels like you need it 15:58:11 no 15:58:15 elliott, no, when you get hit very hard 15:58:18 aw, it should be 15:58:27 e.g., the ouch, that really hurt message 15:58:31 mikee_: ah yes. could add that to trog! 15:58:36 trog nerf 15:58:38 yes 15:58:54 will make people heal in advance to avoid the rage 15:59:16 it does seem kind of bad 15:59:17 (passive berserk works better in doomrl because berserk is a straight buff there) 15:59:23 but also kind of fun 15:59:31 elliptic: it's OK, Trog is the only way of getting reliable berserk in 41qys-crawl anyway, so it balances out :p 16:01:13 did you remove amulets of rage? 16:01:41 What does 41qys stand for? 16:01:47 <|amethyst> 4.1 + monqy 16:02:40 Retrocrawling -- but why? 16:02:46 mikee_: no, but exh can only be cured on descent or by potion of curing -- the idea is to make trog clear it for good behaviour 16:03:00 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:02 elliott, oh wow 16:03:05 <|amethyst> I think of it more as an "alternate timeline" :) 16:03:08 dpeg: it is a crawl variant monqy and I have been working on... like Crawl if Crawl was more like Brogue and Sil and DoomRL and less like Crawl 16:03:10 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:17 dpeg: it is based on 4.1 as a joke :p 16:03:32 dpeg is one of the few who actually like 4.1 16:03:45 I love 4.1! it's just also ridiculous 16:04:30 -!- johnthebear has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:04:37 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:59 I love the idea that you start a game knowing it's only about depth (or XL or score), and not about winning. 16:05:11 And I actually played it. 16:05:37 unless you are syllogism 16:05:41 that's how a lot of people feel about every roguelike :) 16:05:57 mikee_: yes, he completely spoiled it 16:05:59 I can't enjoy 4.1 because of the lack of SS interface improvements. 16:06:15 elliott: the first survey showed how many Crawlers feel like this (with DCSS). 16:06:15 -!- Senri has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:06:17 yes, wow that interface is like the stone age 16:06:28 the first thing I did to 41qys-crawl was add HP/MP bars 16:06:28 it's almost as bad as nethack 16:06:29 And it even has Darshan's travel patch. 16:06:51 Hey, I can enjoy NetHack. 16:07:02 elliott: when Paul (sadly only a short time Crawl dev) added those bars completely on his own, he got mostly negative reactions, before, during and after he did it :) 16:07:06 And there's always AceHack for interface. 16:07:29 Hi rax! 16:07:44 elliott, you are so proud of your bars 16:07:54 mikee_: they are the single most important interface improvement ever 16:08:04 dpeg: that's what happens when you change things :p 16:08:06 elliott: how about autotravel 16:08:09 elliott, did i tell you that i never look at bars 16:08:18 all that work is wasted on me! 16:08:18 I can live without the bars, I'm thinking of autotravel/autoexplore and the like. 16:08:26 nooodl: well, interlevel travel is kind of impossible in 41qys-crawl and the maps are going to be smaller 16:08:33 dtsund: 4.1 actually has both of those, although its autoexplore isn't as good 16:08:35 mikee_: you don't?! 16:08:41 mikee_: you did tell me yes 16:08:45 nooodl, no, i prefer numbers 16:08:50 elliott: sure. I know that feeling too (got those reactions for almost every god). But isn't it funny how people even complain about seemingly unambiguously good changes? 16:08:54 does your rc turn the bars off though 16:09:02 -!- Deathmic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:14 no but i tape a piece of paper to the screen where the bars are 16:09:17 i am not an advanced user 16:09:17 <3 16:09:42 <|amethyst> taping paper to the screen 16:10:04 <|amethyst> pitfall was a little before my time, but I recall hearing that that was a useful strategy there 16:10:08 to avoid embarrassment if someone sees the paper, you can write a little note on it 16:10:08 can the bars even be turned off in rc 16:10:35 <|amethyst> because some events always happened at the same point on the screen, or something 16:10:57 mikee_: which says: "Kill! Kill!! Kill!!!", I hope. 16:11:19 dpeg, that creates a different kind of embarrassment =P 16:11:25 elliott: there was an option at some point, yes 16:11:47 that would be a good one to set if you want to disorient people into not watching you 16:11:54 mikee_: you can also claim the tape is there to prevent pornographic material from being offensive. 16:11:59 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 16:12:13 i could put passages from ulysses with little annotations underneath 16:12:20 so people think i am reading ulysses 16:12:55 your font must be pretty huge if you can fit that onto a bar-covering note 16:13:22 On topic, Paul was (perhaps is) a professional games coder, and he said that bars are a must. I guess he shares elliott's approach. 16:13:36 -!- Orionstein has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:49 yes, most people seem to be unlike me these days 16:13:58 If you write something like "Paul V.2" on it, everyone will think you're deepling religious. 16:14:02 i can't think of any modern rpg that doesn't use bars 16:14:04 i can't play without bars but i don't think i look at them very often, it's weird 16:14:12 i prefer taverns 16:14:19 /rimshot 16:14:24 -!- idle_t has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:14:27 I think the main use of the bars is that they get that red portion whenever you lose HP, so you notice when you're dying earlier 16:14:28 nooodl: it's subconscious. Paul also did the cool stuff with colours and hysteresis. 16:15:10 cataclysm has bars for each body part and i find it horrible 16:15:38 mikee_: how much paper do you waste on a game of cataclysm 16:15:46 mikee_: we also have bars on the spells screen. 16:15:53 none since i threw my copy of cataclysm in lava irl 16:15:59 mikee_: you would never be able to play brogue 16:16:05 oh yes. luckily i don't look at them much 16:16:11 actually brogue does have numbers when you examine stuff 16:16:22 Brogue also has numbers on the bars. 16:16:24 but they are all averages 16:16:39 not the health bar :) unless there's a secret option I'm missing.... 16:16:50 elliott: ah, damn 16:20:10 Are secret doors already removed in trunk? 16:20:20 <|amethyst> only random ones 16:20:29 <|amethyst> glasnost branch is for the rest 16:21:21 thx 16:21:22 can anyone tell me where I can find the config file for DCSS (linux) 16:21:27 ? 16:21:44 kilobyte: c-r-d mail sent 16:22:12 mikee_: does smart kobold's hp... thing count as a bar? 16:22:17 Ah, any tile players/devs around? rangmere might contribute tiles. 16:22:23 MarvinPA, never played it, actually 16:22:43 rangmere, do you mean init.txt? 16:22:49 or another kind of config 16:22:51 mikee_: oh man, you have to play smart kobold :) 16:22:56 Mikee, I think that's what I mean 16:22:57 ah, it's pretty interesting 16:23:05 i heard about it but never did 16:23:09 but the hp indicator is the weirdest hp indicator ever created 16:23:10 it sounds really simplistic 16:23:25 i think it was originally a 7drl? 16:23:31 i think so too 16:23:37 it is 16:23:38 and then got polished a bit afterwards 16:23:58 mikee_: the mechanics are very simplistic, however the AI is the absolute opposite of simplistic, so the game is quite thoroughly difficult 16:24:18 sounds sort of like chessrogue 16:24:32 rangmere: is there .crawlrc? 16:26:16 dpeg, all I see is a .crawl folder with only morgue and saves ... 16:26:42 <|amethyst> rangmere: ~/.crawl/init.txt then 16:27:13 mikee_: Monsters will willfully destroy items rather than let you get them. 16:27:13 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: link_108] 16:27:29 maybe I'm the noobest dude ever, but my .crawl has no init.txt file. Do I have to create it? 16:27:34 :s 16:27:35 <|amethyst> rangmere: default config if that doesn't exist might be in /etc/crawl/ or /usr/share/crawl/settings/ but you should edit ~/.crawl/init.txt 16:27:58 <|amethyst> rangmere: you might copy the default config there, though that won't be necessary soon 16:28:16 <|amethyst> rangmere: even now the default config is mostly commented out 16:28:37 Because the defaults are so good! 16:28:41 yay, found it. thanks amethyst 16:28:49 defaults are great! I just want to play in windowed mode :D 16:31:44 -!- test__ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:04 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:40 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:37 -!- test__ is now known as mikee_ 16:42:11 -!- test__ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:42:19 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:01 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 16:45:06 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:46:45 -!- mithel has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:03 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 16:49:21 i don't feel comfortable sending "yes please" to the mailing list, so ill just say it here: yes, please remove mechanical traps and T&D skill and replace detection with some simple one-time check 16:51:09 03kilobyte 07mon-pick * r088cf57e3cc6 10/crawl-ref/source/zotdef.cc: Avoid a pointless loop in ZotDef monster selection. 16:51:09 03kilobyte 07mon-pick * rc086f60cd877 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-pick.cc mon-pick.h): Don't pretend pick_monster_no_rarity() uses depth, either. 16:51:09 03kilobyte 07mon-pick * rccafab7d3876 10/crawl-ref/source/ (arena.cc mon-pick.cc mon-pick.h): Don't go through inappropriate monsters during arena selection. 16:51:09 03kilobyte 07mon-pick * r56e8f236b0d2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick-data.h: Round monster rarities towards 500, rather than randomly. 16:51:09 it's fresh new trunk time 16:51:09 make all the breaking changes you can 16:51:09 (in a branch so you don't break trunk) 16:51:09 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:51:09 time to remove water 16:51:12 -!- test__ is now known as mikee_ 16:51:33 alefury: but saying "yes please" on the mailing list may be the trigger for more reactions 16:51:44 mikee_: I should have known you were test___ 16:51:53 mikee_: first bars, then water... where will it end? 16:51:54 haha 16:51:56 ??test 16:51:56 summon butterflies[4/5]: 12Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 9Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 4Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 8Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 11Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ7 Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 6Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ6 10Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 16:51:57 its still bothering a lot of people with no relevant information 16:52:24 alefury: water? 16:52:32 dpeg, with a better world 16:52:43 he means the yes please 16:52:57 dpeg: no, yes please 16:53:25 just quote the whole mail, and append "me too" 16:53:30 next mikee_ will remove bumblebees 16:53:39 kilobyte: not even badforum is that bad 16:53:49 actually, as forums go, tavern is pretty okay 16:54:16 elliott: wait, are bumblebees still in crawl? 16:54:24 bumblebee (05k) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 27-54 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Dam: 2004(medium poison) | fly | Res: 06magic(28) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 225 | Sz: tiny | Int: insect. 16:54:24 %??bumblebee 16:54:25 alefury: yes, isn't it awful? 16:54:29 wow, they are 16:54:40 didnt someone want to remove them like a year ago? 16:54:53 i thought that had happened, because it sounded like a very good idea 16:54:55 -!- _159 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:55:29 reasons: they appear about 1/10 games and are boring when they do 16:55:35 i'll probably get around to it at some point if nobody else does 16:56:07 they are just so boring that i don't even remember to remove them and get distracted by other things :P 16:56:24 does anyone need a key for waves? 16:56:30 steam key i mean 16:56:42 its an arena shmup 16:57:06 MarvinPA: you wil remove bumblebees and there will be fury like you have never seen before from all corners of the globe 16:57:11 "my favourite monster!" 16:57:13 oshikia (L3 DsTm) ERROR: range check error (35 / 35) (D:1) 16:57:17 don't give me shmups... that'd kill all my productivity 16:57:35 MarvinPA: yes, there'll be forum nicks BumblebeeForLige 16:57:38 *life even 16:57:41 i wasnt very captivated by it and just got another key from a bundle 16:57:45 heh 16:57:48 its pretty okay i think, i just dont like arena shmups 16:59:45 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:01:01 Still confused about one part of the possible T&D removal: What happens to magical traps (read: teleport traps and Zot traps)? 17:01:28 we put them all over the dungeon 17:02:07 (you may wish to read the whole discussion at http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/) 17:02:17 Lightli: the c-r-d post elaborates on that: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.games.roguelike.crawl.devel/914 17:02:34 dpeg summarised it nicely in that mail, yeah 17:02:35 Lightli: a dex check 17:02:38 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:02:41 I still need to add my fire bees, frost bees, boulder bees, and beeserkers 17:02:43 and just once 17:02:53 -!- FunnyMan3595 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:02:59 -!- Vizer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:59 ok 17:03:05 dtsund: does Light have the Hive? 17:03:09 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:12 There could be much better ideas on the last part, but that's why I wrote the mail. 17:03:24 kilobyte: Yes, but the bees have been slightly reflavored 17:03:27 So now trolls have an excuse to train Dexterity! 17:03:43 -!- _159 has quit [Client Quit] 17:03:45 Their nectar is now magical in nature (potions); on easy mode, Hive is a potion source. 17:03:53 -!- blabber_ has quit [Client Quit] 17:04:18 In Normal, Hive is/will be nastier and have fewer potions, but you need to clear it out to access Hard and allrune. 17:04:37 To that end: more bee types. 17:04:48 technically you don't need to clear 90% of it :) 17:05:01 or are you removing the backdoor? 17:05:10 Yeah, but I think I'll put a few oklobs around the backdoor area. 17:06:27 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:08:16 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:09:02 -!- Senjai|GW2 has quit [Changing host] 17:09:47 oh hello crawl-dev 17:15:08 -!- keszocze has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:22 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 17:16:28 -!- mithel has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:17:04 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:17:51 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 17:20:41 -!- FunnyMan3595 has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:28 -!- Tolias has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:28:09 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:28:28 -!- notthepope has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:34:07 ugh, the trap part of the log is really long 17:34:11 not going to read that :( 17:37:12 a good portion of it is just zot trap stuff 17:37:23 don't read it, it's a trap 17:37:24 zot trap stuff? like how they zot you? 17:37:38 like how they zot you and no one else ever 17:38:29 ah. thats because zot. 17:38:35 obviously 17:38:49 that was the consensus, yes :p 17:38:51 i think its pretty cool actually 17:38:59 -!- lorenz371 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 17:39:11 zotters gonna zot 17:39:48 -!- ZombieChicken has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:42:09 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:53:24 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 17:57:32 <|amethyst> would it make sense to make a random mutation more likely to choose things you already have? Probably it would have to be after deciding if the mutation should be good/bad, or there's a snowball effect 17:58:28 |amethyst: interesting idea 18:00:32 some high level mutations are only balanced by being really rare 18:00:53 changing that might make mutations very harsh 18:01:02 and good ones really good 18:02:05 <|amethyst> I guess getting deterioration 3 from ijyb is pretty much game over :) 18:02:17 |amethyst: thats a pretty cool idea, is there some motivation for that or just a different direction to go with random mutations? 18:02:32 i think having to deal with a few powerful bad effects (or taking advantage of very few strong good effects) would be more interesting than having to deal with lots of weak ones, but it might require further balancing work 18:02:47 <|amethyst> link_108: so that level 3 mutations get seen more often (other than in demonspawn) 18:02:52 and yeah, some high level mutations just end your game right there if you get them early 18:03:39 would be avoided if wand of polymorph was turned into wand of bad form against the player as was proposed at some point (and afaik kilobyte started implementing some bad forms) 18:03:39 <|amethyst> then again, slow move + slow heal + teleportitis = :( 18:04:02 i think thats still better than having any single one of those at level 3 18:04:06 <|amethyst> yeah, with malmutate being a higher-level thing (and probably not a wand) 18:04:14 <|amethyst> true 18:04:14 except maybe teleportitis if you have ctele or -tele 18:04:40 <|amethyst> I don't know, can teleportitis 3 + ctele survive the glow? 18:04:43 i think all the stuff but the wand that currently mutates you is fine 18:04:48 |amethyst: ah I gotcha, definitely would be nice to notice the effects of mutations a bit more so they have more of an impact on gameplay 18:04:52 not sure, i never had ctele3 18:04:57 eh, *tele3 18:07:50 <|amethyst> it looks like it does wear off faster than it accumulates, on average 18:07:52 it would encourage people to quaff mut if they get a lucky mutation i think 18:08:29 <|amethyst> the idea is they'd be just as likely to get a bad mutation as they were before 18:09:18 <|amethyst> i.e. for random mutations, choose first between good and bad and then pick one, weighted (perhaps only slightly) by what you already have 18:09:50 so, it kinda of sounds like it'd be bad if the high level mutations (good or bad) stacked too much, would it be possible/ a good idea to only have the lower level mutations have a higher chance of being chosen? 18:10:17 or like |amethyst said too, the extra weight could just be a small amount 18:10:35 might be nice to weight more heavily for jiyva, too 18:11:15 -!- Utis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:30 and be more likely to get multiple levels in things, at least for a while 18:11:38 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:12:16 the weighting wouldnt have to be that weak i think 18:12:48 <|amethyst> 4 times the weight would still make it not-exactly-likely 18:12:51 something like a 30% chance for a mutation to pick something you already have, roll randomly the rest of the time 18:13:12 alefury: then some mutations might get stacked early on, not sure if thats a good thing or not, might be too unbalanced for early game 18:13:30 especially if you only have one mutation 18:13:35 link_108: only wand of poly and glow can mutate you early 18:13:46 <|amethyst> the whole point is to get more mutations stacking, good and bad 18:13:56 and wand of poly has an overhaul pending 18:13:58 alefury: gotcha, so not a problem them 18:14:11 <|amethyst> well, "good" in particular is what I'm interested in, but I don't want to be *that* friendly to players 18:14:13 <|amethyst> the idea is they'd be just as likely to get a bad mutation as they were before 18:14:14 early glow is your own fault, so you deserve what you get 18:14:32 |amethyst: i wasn't saying that quaffing mut would be a good idea, just that people will be encouraged to do it if they know about this 18:14:33 oh also this wouldn't be all that interesting if you get lame stuff like +/- stats stacked 18:14:34 (despit eit still being a bad idea) 18:14:46 that might not be a problem though -- it's easy enough to make bad decisions as it is 18:14:50 <|amethyst> elliott: I'm not sure that's a bad thing though 18:15:00 then again maybe +/- stats just shouldn't be mutations on their own 18:15:13 MarvinPA: that, or they should come up in bigger steps 18:15:18 multiples of 3, say 18:15:24 <|amethyst> make !mutation give one good and one bad mutation 18:15:42 how about not counting removing +- stats towards cmut? 18:15:47 <|amethyst> reducing the variance might make people more rational about it 18:15:48 or +stats at least? 18:15:57 dpeg: possibly, yeah. or have them come alongside something else (like there's already +ac/-dex, or whatever) 18:16:11 some people say quaffing gain x is bad because if you get a bad mutation later, it is less likely to be removed by cmut 18:16:14 dpeg: +/- 3 per but, isn't that a lot? 18:16:28 mut* 18:16:33 if the chance to remove +stat was independent from other cmut cures, this would be gone 18:16:35 link_108: that's the point 18:16:56 I believe our stats would be more interesting if they were coarser (steps of 2 might do) 18:17:22 dpeg: only thing Im thinking of is if it is to much, like losing all your int because you started with 6 int 18:17:25 <|amethyst> alefury: and what about -stat? seems a bit unfair either way 18:18:01 dpeg: steps of 2 make more sense, then again, I'm not too familiar with how much stat changes effect gameplay :/ 18:18:04 * dtsund approves of coarser stats 18:18:09 well, the problem this is supposed to solve is that there is not just a decision of when to use gain potions, but a decision whether to use them at all, when i think these should be unambigously good 18:18:20 -stat is not really involved in that 18:18:37 removing +-stat from the random mutation pool might be good anyway, as was previously mentioned 18:18:39 i don't think gain stat being unambiguously good is desirable 18:18:55 why? 18:19:02 <|amethyst> "no brainer" 18:19:04 "no brainers" 18:19:07 <|amethyst> then again 18:19:13 <|amethyst> acquirement is a no brainer 18:19:15 there is still a small decision of when to use it 18:19:18 <|amethyst> I mean, what to acquire, no 18:19:23 the brainer is whether to use it before or after you cure your mutations!!! immediate benefit or later benefit 18:19:24 also, !exp 18:19:28 not much of a brainer though 18:19:37 -!- acenoid has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 18:19:39 acquirement and experience have much more interesting decisions involved 18:19:44 <|amethyst> 1learn add brainer 18:19:44 i think its fine to have crawl sometimes just throw something good at you 18:19:53 gain stat just isn't a very interesting good thing to throw at people 18:19:58 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: make it !gain stat and have the player choose 18:20:21 |amethyst: int, except if you are never going to cast spells anyway? 18:20:27 <|amethyst> same decision we give them every three levels, so it might be a little boring, but still 18:20:32 i dont think thats any more interesting 18:20:36 <|amethyst> alefury: that is its own problem :) 18:20:44 |amethyst: acquirement is not a nobrainer 18:20:46 minmay's suggestion of changing the 3 gain stat potions into "beneficial mut" (still not a huge fan of that name) seems okay to me, maybe 18:20:47 i dont think its going to get solved any time soon 18:20:56 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:19 * dtsund doesn't regard no-brainer "I will do this" as being bad, just "I will not do this" ones. 18:21:23 MarvinPA: could just hijack "potion of evolution" for the name, and have it simply give a beneficial mut (and not the evolution mutation) 18:21:38 -!- Adeon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:48 <|amethyst> dpeg: I guess that's true, since you might want to wait until you have e.g. found more mundane wands or increased the appropriate magic skills 18:21:50 gain stat would be a lot more interesting if 3 !gainInt would boost your Int by 6 or even 9 -- that means a lot, and might be worth it (and the choice of when to do it) 18:22:14 |amethyst: yes, I generally wait with my acquirements until I know what's missing. In my current game, I have three. 18:22:20 dpeg: what about str? :P 18:22:29 12? 15? 18:22:32 alefury: well, Str will come 18:23:14 |amethyst: the general consensus about acquirement afaik is "use it now" 18:23:29 there are probably exceptions, but these are pretty rare i think 18:23:35 w - the +5 chain mail of the Pit (worn) {rF++ rC+ Curse} 18:23:58 what about it? 18:24:50 oh, just for fun 18:25:19 seems like one of those "its okay until you find something decent" items 18:25:57 -!- Vidiny has quit [Quit: In the time it takes for a woman to get ready, the weather is almost guaranteed to change.] 18:27:18 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 18:27:47 a blessed potion of mutation 18:27:55 -!- pelotr0n is now known as pelotron 18:28:39 dpeg: I'd be interested in your thoughts on http://pastebin.com/HUz8xzVg if you're interested in reading that. 18:30:55 dtsund: paragraph 21, I think you mean "P shrinks" 18:31:01 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:31:04 -!- frogbotherer has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:27 Yeah, I think there are some minor-but-obvious errors in there 18:32:28 dtsund: proportional means linear, inversely proportional means 1/x 18:32:35 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:32:35 I agree with it all you write, although I am not sure this mode of thinking will lead to better design. (But it could easily be -- just writing that Philosophy section has helped a lot, also for those who disagree with stuff in there.) 18:33:09 alefury: Aye; I was sloppy when writing that. 18:34:12 dtsund: to me, the distinction between short-term and long-term thinking is also important. In my opinion, that's the only reason why a game like Crawl is allowed to be as big as it is (and it's still too big even for that, but we're working on that). 18:34:34 <|amethyst> I take "no brainer" to mean "P is unacceptably close to G" 18:34:39 dpeg: Indeed; I did mention that briefly. 18:35:07 |amethyst: more than that: in addition, G is a singleton 18:35:15 (for that one choice) 18:35:28 |amethyst: actually, its "for a certain subset A of D, A ^ P is unacceptably close to A ^ G" 18:35:30 |amethyst: I take "no brainer" to mean "one of the individual decisions in the cartesian product is obvious" 18:36:20 dtsund said it better, though :) 18:37:39 generally i think ditching all the stuff about sets would make that text much shorter and easier to understand and apply to design 18:37:53 -!- erisdiscordia has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:38:15 Possibly, though that was kind of an outline of how I think about it 18:38:31 its a good outline, and if you wrote it for yourself it is good enough 18:38:32 And leaving it in set-theoretic terms may enable more detailed analysis 18:39:16 whether it is good enough for your intended audience depends on the intended audience 18:39:37 you need to understand that most people dont know what a set is 18:39:54 -!- rast_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:40:08 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 18:40:23 Even if I thought most people understood sets, I wouldn't expect them to get "cartesian product", yeah. 18:40:35 Set is a god. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_%28mythology%29 18:40:43 dstund: thanks for writing that, makes me want to write an AI for dcss… not too sure how to go about it though (how to have an AI interact with the game) 18:40:57 link_108: there are bots. 18:40:57 link_108: there already are some bots 18:41:09 ??autorobin 18:41:10 autorobin[1/6]: A robin for playing crawl by holding down the letter 'd'. Now with automatic Lair -> Orc -> Vaults branch order! 18:41:11 most use the player lua interface 18:41:13 i think the most advanced one has a tavern thread in the coding section 18:41:28 oh there are?! I saw somebody post in taven but didn't know how far they got with it 18:41:34 autorobin is the best-known one, but im pretty sure it doesnt work well anymore, and it is very limited 18:41:35 If those guys starting getting runes, our game is not good enough. 18:41:42 alefure: I think thats the thread I saw 18:41:45 ??autorobin[2] 18:41:46 autorobin[2/6]: FLEEEEING 18:41:49 ??autorobin[3] 18:41:50 autorobin[3/6]: Currently can clear L and O and die in V, on a good day 18:42:00 ??cashybrid 18:42:01 cashybrid[1/1]: Bot (running a slightly-modified version of elliptic's autorobin) + casmith789 hybrid, working together to grab the orb! Current record 1:05:11. 18:42:07 dang, not bad 18:42:22 Aren't the bots all FeBe, all the time? 18:42:25 is there documentation for these bots online? and for wenzell? 18:42:26 thats something like number 2 on the speedrun toplist 18:42:28 i think they've gotten runes 18:42:37 top 1 is named "cheating" 18:42:46 this was with old febe though 18:42:48 I've never seen a "real" crawl bot get all that far 18:42:48 top 3 is probably elliptic or elynae or something 18:42:51 !lg . won min=time 18:42:51 Unknown selector: time 18:42:54 !lg . won min=dur 18:42:54 8. SGrunt the Conqueror (L26 MiFi), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2012-05-24, with 1497395 points after 78370 turns and 4:26:51. 18:42:56 er 18:42:57 the one that had a speed run used a ton of player interaction 18:42:57 thats something like number 2 on the speedrun toplist 18:42:58 MarvinPA: Have to make it clear that we're not nerfing because the devteam is oh so good at Crawl but to keep the damn bots from winning. 18:42:58 !lg * won min=dur 18:42:59 8813. cashybrid the Eviscerator (L22 FeBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-04-05, with 1295305 points after 91333 turns and 1:05:11. 18:43:00 cashybrid is #1, #2 is elynae 18:43:03 it was just crawl's regular atuomation taken to an extreme 18:43:04 elynae thinks he can beat cashybrid though 18:43:11 !lg * won min=dur -2 18:43:11 8812/8813. Elynae the Conqueror (L25 MiBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2012-06-23, with 1873843 points after 49257 turns and 1:08:43. 18:43:17 autorobin has 2 snake runes and xw has a swamp and a snake 18:43:17 elynae also thinks cashybrid is cheating though :p 18:43:18 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:43:22 elliott: well, youre not counting "cheating" 18:43:28 !lg * won min=dur 18:43:28 8813. cashybrid the Eviscerator (L22 FeBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-04-05, with 1295305 points after 91333 turns and 1:05:11. 18:43:30 -!- rast_ is now known as rast 18:43:33 elliott: cheating how? 18:43:33 is cheating using wizmode 18:43:34 oh, did that get removed or something? 18:43:39 if you watch the cashybrid run, it doesnt really look like cheating 18:43:42 what scripts did elayne use? 18:43:50 dpeg: elynae thinks cashybrid is cheating because it was partially automated/botted 18:44:00 my position is that if that's cheating, o+tab is... although it's not clear where to draw the line 18:44:03 like elynae never uses scripts 18:44:08 ah, tough question -- like for Chess players :) 18:44:11 just oa nd tab? 18:44:18 well he is evidently wrong since the game interface explicitly allows it :P 18:44:23 the silly thing is elynae could have beaten that run... he just needed to disable explore_delay :P 18:44:37 but he had that on, which must have added a good 5-10 minutes to his run 18:44:38 !lg * won min=dur -2 18:44:38 8812/8813. Elynae the Conqueror (L25 MiBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2012-06-23, with 1873843 points after 49257 turns and 1:08:43. 18:44:48 holy shit 18:44:49 elynae's record is something like 50 minutes to hall of zot I think, so he could definitely beat cashybrid 18:44:50 how do you win that quickly? 18:45:05 !lm * elynae zot:5 !won min=dur 18:45:05 rast: you have to be elynae 18:45:07 er 18:45:07 35. [2010-08-22] 78291 the Bewitcher (L15 SpEn) reached level 5 of the Realm of Zot on turn 16352. (Zot:5) 18:45:08 i spend that much time doing inventory managment in just the first 10 levels 18:45:09 rast: isn't that common in Nethack? 18:45:11 !lg * elynae zot:5 !won min=dur 18:45:12 15. 78291 the Pacifier (L16 DDHe), worshipper of Elyvilon, mangled by an Orb Guardian on Zot:5 (hall of Zot) on 2011-05-24, with 128726 points after 18204 turns and 2:08:52. 18:45:18 ...hahaha, elynae is interpreted as "ely" :) 18:45:22 i think the secret is lots of coffe, plus flight of the bumblebee on loop, and being elynae 18:45:33 !lg elynae zot:5 !won min=dur 18:45:34 12. Elynae the Conqueror (L22 MiBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by a black draconian (bolt of lightning) in Zot:5 (hall of Zot) on 2012-06-24, with 346414 points after 47737 turns and 0:50:56. 18:45:41 I need to explore tavern more or something… figure out how to use scripts in the game and use lua.... 18:45:42 Flight of the Bumblebee <3 18:45:56 !lm elynae orb -game !won min=dur 18:45:57 Elynae:cdo:20120524073605S. Elynae the Conqueror (L23 MiBe), worshipper of Trog, mangled by an Orb Guardian in Zot:5 (hall of Zot) on 2012-06-24, with 392806 points after 53904 turns and 1:00:19. 18:46:02 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:46:03 he also got the orb in something like an hour after spending a few turns at 1 HP and then died... if he can get zot:5 down I think he can beat cashybrid's time 18:46:24 i think hes going to do it eventually 18:46:33 already got fastest 15 rune win by far, right? 18:46:35 he's already proven he can beat the game in under an hour, imo 18:46:46 !lg * won urune=15 min=dur 18:46:46 -!- inde has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:46:47 1696. Elynae the Conqueror (L27 MiFi), worshipper of Zin, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-02-18, with 13686564 points after 115199 turns and 3:02:57. 18:46:53 now we can market Crawl as a coffeebreak roguelike 18:46:54 !lg * won urune=15 min=dur -2 18:46:55 1695/1696. hyperbolic the Ninja (L20 SpEn), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-01-23, with 29053142 points after 49984 turns and 3:20:34. 18:47:09 allrune record by 20 minutes is pretty neat imo 18:47:10 dpeg: only problem is, to play that fast, it's actually physically demanding 18:47:16 it is definitely thrilling to see someone reach D:4 in under thirty seconds 18:47:18 evilmike: that's the joke 18:47:23 can't imagine anyone can keep that up for more than a day though 18:47:34 we could market crawl as a form of exercise 18:47:45 both mental and physical :) 18:47:50 and religious! 18:48:00 "Meet your inner self!" 18:48:03 spiritual :P 18:48:05 exercise your mind! your fingers! and your ability to use vi keys! 18:48:11 The coffee in question had better not be decaffeinated. 18:48:23 !coffee everyone 18:48:24 * Wenzell hands everyone a pot of cappuccino, brewed by Cerebov. 18:48:29 coffee with cream. but instead of cream, red bull 18:48:36 maybe crawl should have an action per minute counter, like some starcraft players use... 18:48:45 zannick: crawl got me used to vi keys… not vi! 18:48:55 i wish i was used to vi keys :( 18:49:00 hell, i use vim and i don't use the vi keys for it :) 18:49:04 what?! 18:49:07 If vi just was as good as Crawl... 18:49:16 do you use arrow keys? 18:49:25 It's not like you use vi(m) for the hjkl keys :P 18:49:34 arrow keys and pgup/pgdown...and sometimes the mouse! 18:49:41 :o 18:49:44 oh, and home/end 18:49:45 * dpeg hands everyone paper bags. 18:49:51 i've heard of people who play crawl using a combo of arrow keys and vi keys. it's an abomination 18:49:57 haha 18:49:59 I use pg up/down 18:50:02 evilmike: I ran out of paper bags. 18:50:03 evilmike: elynae does arrow keys + numrow for diagonals 18:50:06 now _that's_ abominable 18:50:15 haha what 18:50:15 evilmike: i did that when i played on a laptop :P 18:50:15 i think i have had crawl games where i used all movement keys at some point 18:50:18 and the mouse 18:50:26 i didnt mix, though 18:50:26 I dont' wan tto live in this world anymore. 18:50:27 ghallberg: I try and get vim plugins for my text editors/IDE's so I can use vim keys/ commands xD 18:50:31 <|amethyst> evilmike: I've caught myself doing that on my laptop occasionally 18:50:33 just switch between them a lot 18:50:35 Numpad fo' life. 18:50:41 You can't do this to me when I'm drunk. 18:50:44 <|amethyst> evilmike: (usually I use vi keys on the laptop, numpad of desktops) 18:50:52 dtsund: the problem with numpad is that o is so far away from it 18:50:56 link_108: I USE hjkl but it's not the reason why I use vim :) 18:51:01 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:51:08 |amethyst: I'm used to both... but I can't fathom using a combination of one and the other, or mixing arrow keys in there :P 18:51:13 ghallberg: ah gotcha! <3 vim 18:51:13 I actually used vimperator for the last week, until firefox started segfaulting X... 18:51:14 my problem with vi keys is that i have a german keyboard, so z and y are swapped 18:51:17 it really sucks 18:51:29 alefury: you can macro them to each other, right? 18:51:29 Now I'm back to my "vim-like" keybindings in opera. 18:51:30 <|amethyst> should remove the arrow key binding 18:51:34 so you press y to cast spells and z to go up-left 18:51:34 Need to send elynae to a typing course -- he could save a lot by going hjkl. 18:51:43 alefury: just remap them, that's what I did :D 18:51:44 elliott: yeah, but never got around to doing it 18:51:51 how do i even rebind keys? 18:51:54 |amethyst: fucking German keyboard layout, eh? 18:51:55 alefury: in crawl, just use ~m 18:52:05 alefury: I just set the keymap in xorg 18:52:06 |amethyst: it makes me mad (using lots of {}[] for Latex) 18:52:08 you can do it in-game, takes a few keypresses, and it will prompt if you want to save at the end 18:52:10 (of your game) 18:52:11 somewhere... 18:52:18 alefury: I think in your .vimrc file? if you're talking about vim 18:52:26 ghallberg: i use tiles. on windows. 18:52:29 yubn don't even work in vim :) 18:52:31 i dont even know what xorg is 18:52:37 dpeg: swedish sucks almost as much (except we get qwery) 18:52:57 alefury: I guess you only want to swirch for crawl? then I have NO idea. 18:53:01 The AltGr key is an abomination. Most probably Bill Gates is to blame for it, 18:53:07 I'm drunk as I said, dont' expect anything useful. 18:53:11 <|amethyst> dpeg: never used a german keyboard, but I recall having to do a lot of altgr when using a Spanish one 18:53:11 <3 AltGr 18:53:14 best key name 18:53:20 Grrrrrrr 18:53:31 alefury: xorg.conf, I guess. making mistakes when editing it is a good way to break everything 18:53:44 at least when I used linux, anyway 18:53:49 In Germany, there's sometimes a school course called Altgriechisch (ancient Greek). 18:53:49 i only learned what AltGr meant after using a computer for like 3 years 18:53:56 evilmike: 01:52 < alefury> ghallberg: i use tiles. on windows. 18:54:16 <|amethyst> dpeg: and I think tilde was something like altgr ~ space 18:54:24 <|amethyst> dpeg: since ~ is a dead key 18:54:32 Yeah, that sucks. 18:54:49 <|amethyst> and is on altgr since the one spanish character that uses it is already on the keyboard 18:54:51 xorg is X.org, which is an implementation of an X11 server and hence handles keyboard/mouse input and graphical display, basically 18:55:02 I see too many ~s floating around the 'net for the tilde button to be a dead key. :b 18:55:25 it's a major character in unix filesystems! 18:55:28 its AltGr and + on a german keyboard 18:55:35 pretty awkward to type 18:55:38 <|amethyst> and shift-3 is a mid dot, used only in catalan 18:55:40 username expansion and all! 18:55:53 Don't forget ~, Zannick! :b 18:56:06 <|amethyst> granted, I was in Catalonia, but apparently that's the case on all Spanish keyboards 18:56:12 is that not what I was talking about, Grunt? 18:56:22 I love how shift 4 is 18:56:26 on swedish keyboards. 18:56:35 When would I ever use that... 18:56:40 I have a number of colleagues who are using US layout, sometimes on an actual German keyboard. 18:56:52 Zannick, I thought you were just referring to ~ by itself. :) 18:56:52 I'm using swedish layout on german keyboard... 18:57:09 I hate the actual us-keyboards, the enter key is stupid. 18:57:17 oh, that's actually something i wasn't thinking of 18:57:21 i would like to have 2 keyboards, one german and one us, and have both work so i can just physically switch 18:57:21 i was thinking just of ~foo 18:57:24 it would be so awesome 18:57:35 -!- Qwertyco1tl has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:57:39 <|amethyst> ghallberg: yeah, I never got the use for a symbol for "this number is currency but we're not telling you the units" 18:57:50 |amethyst: exactly. 18:58:12 <|amethyst> ghallberg: it's like having — mean either meters or feet (or microns or light-years) 18:58:19 wait, what? 18:58:29 what symbol are you talking about? 18:58:33 Maybe it's for middle school math, "You have 400, you pay 200 for x, how much do you have left?" 18:58:41 <|amethyst> alefury: 18:58:48 this is mangled for me :( 18:58:50 |amethyst: you can use it to be polymorphic over currencies: "If something costs 300 and you have 400, what do you need to buy it?" 18:58:50 <|amethyst> alefury: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_(typography) 18:58:52 alefury: , the generic currency symbol. 18:58:56 18:58:58 |amethyst: but in reality it was for encoding-related reasons 18:58:59 -!- hasufell has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:59:00 ah 18:59:14 i would read it as "water mine" 18:59:15 so that you could encode a symbol that works for everyone's currency 18:59:18 rather than just putting $ there 18:59:21 alefury: <3 18:59:22 or something like that, anyway 18:59:23 <|amethyst> It was proposed by Italy[2] to allow an alternative to encoding the dollar sign. 18:59:29 alefury: I used to think it was the sun or something. 18:59:29 <|amethyst> yeah 18:59:39 I like the compose kwy :D 18:59:42 ☭ 18:59:51 -!- rast_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00:23 <|amethyst> ghallberg: I just found that one this morning :) 19:00:27 I g2g, see you all later 19:00:32 communism alert! 19:00:41 also mangled on this computer :/ 19:00:43 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: link_108] 19:00:49 ! 19:00:53 dpeg: I don't have a compose-combo for the swastika or I'd try to balance it out. 19:00:53 <|amethyst> anyway, grocery shopping with the wife, back in a little while 19:00:55 maybe i should try restarting my irc client, i changed the encoding but it didnt do anything 19:00:58 brb 19:01:00 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:01:08 ghallberg: nah, better leave it at the hammer 19:01:13 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01:14 |amethyst: groceries at 2 am! You're crazy! 19:01:17 btw, would make a nice combo for Sigmund + Wiglaf 19:01:18 dpeg: A snowman then :) 19:01:29 ??test 19:01:29 Siglaf? 19:01:29 summon butterflies[4/5]: 12Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 9Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 4Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 8Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 11Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ7 Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 6Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ6 10Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 19:01:37 hm, it is mangled differently now 19:01:51 Hmm, that middle one looks kinda like cthulu. 19:02:03 Ӝ̵̨̄ 19:02:12 I'm tired, see ya tomorrow- 19:02:35 nights 19:02:37 whats a good encoding to set my irc client to? 19:02:55 utf-8 still shows mangled symbols when you say weird stuff 19:03:04 that last character doesn't display right for me 19:03:23 the L thing with the overbar 19:03:37 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:03:40 it's appearing between the butterflies instead of underneath the left wing 19:03:41 -!- rast_ is now known as rast 19:03:59 * Zannick shrugs 19:04:15 alefury: utf8 works for me :( 19:04:30 maybe the font kvirc uses just doesnt have the symbols 19:04:37 That'd be likely. 19:04:48 Most of my Unicode troubles in the past have been on account of missing fonts. 19:05:55 meh, i cant even set a font 19:06:01 so, whatever 19:07:13 MarvinPA: thanks for recommending kvirc btw, best client i used so far 19:07:51 you can set font in configure theme, i think 19:08:45 oh, i looked at normal config 19:09:34 any font recommendations? there are too many and i have no idea which are good 19:10:00 hm, i use consolas i think 19:11:00 still mangled butterflies, and i dont like monospace for general reading 19:11:33 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 19:12:35 hm, arial unicode ms is not super terrible 19:12:52 but its still arial :( 19:13:20 ??test 19:13:20 summon butterflies[4/5]: 12Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 9Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 4Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 8Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 11Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ7 Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 6Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ6 10Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 19:14:50 honestly I'd be very impressed if there's any irc client out there at all that can properly handle those combining characters 19:16:02 alefury: dejavu sans? 19:16:22 ahh 19:16:36 my poor eyes, it looks like bold italic 19:16:49 ah, it was 19:16:58 it works fine in mine 19:17:05 they look beautiful 19:17:24 elliott: does it actually look like what you'd get if you paste them into something that handles combining characters 19:17:26 like firefox 19:17:27 Wensley: its just a matter of encoding and font 19:17:38 chatzilla does not combine them 19:17:48 Wensley: i use xchat and it looks ok. do you want a screenshot 19:17:54 elliott: pix plz 19:17:54 alefury: it's not that simple, actually, unicode rendering is a big pain 19:17:57 the butterflies look good to me with utf8 and dejavu or that arial ms thingy 19:18:53 Wensley: http://i.imgur.com/9JxLq.png 19:20:00 elliott: they are not as beautiful in monospace as they are in arial 19:20:10 Wensley: that is not arial 19:20:14 i am incredibly offended 19:20:17 * dtsund just uses Opera, and everything's looked fine so far 19:20:19 elliott: no, they are arial in my browser 19:20:23 in my search box 19:20:27 where I have pasted them 19:20:36 oh. it's not monospaced either :P 19:20:38 oh wait you are not using monospace 19:20:41 what a weirdo 19:21:10 monospaced is kind of pointless on irc except for like pasting code and who pastes large swathes of code onto irc anyway 19:21:15 haha, that is not quite what my combining characters look like 19:21:24 mine are all shifted to the right some 19:22:49 elliott: monospaced is great for making it hard to distinguish people whose names have the same number of characters 19:22:53 Wensley: mine almost gets summon butterflies 19:22:57 it's just slightly off 19:23:18 i am not sure the rendering i took a screenshot of is correct, but it is close or identical to how chromium's address bar renders it 19:23:46 the butterfly colors bleed over a bit, i think just one glyph is getting rendered wrong 19:24:07 monospace+nickcolor is great for making it hard to distinguish people whose names are the same length and color 19:24:42 in chatzilla all nicks are the same color 19:25:04 colored nicks work pretty well 19:25:17 chatzilla is not that horribly by now though 19:25:19 I use xchat sometimes. also irssi. I wish they all had features of the other 19:25:25 alefury is lightmagenta! Wensley is lightgreen! Zannick is red! 19:25:26 <_< 19:25:34 (Raise your hand if you agree!) 19:25:36 Grunt has synesthesia 19:25:45 I don't, actually. :b 19:26:05 for me im black, youre some sort of brownish red, wensley is light purple, and zannick is the same color as grunt 19:26:09 I used to think that I had synesthesia for programming languages but then I realized it was just syntax highlighting 19:26:12 -!- barbs has joined ##crawl-dev 19:27:36 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:12 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 19:33:39 -!- eb has quit [] 19:33:53 -!- ajikeshi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:34:23 people who use nick colouring are weird 19:34:39 Wensley: (1learn add wensley) 19:37:08 youre dark purple 19:37:37 i thought it looked weird at first, but it does make chat a bit easier to read, and i got used to it quickly 19:37:42 -!- ZRN_ has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:50 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:38:54 good night 19:39:37 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:40:58 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 19:42:58 i love nick colors 19:43:43 oh, I see some people seriously talked about removing the ID game. something i would suggest for that - auto-id the item when it's stepped on, not when it's spotted. otherwise you could take one glance at a loot vault and decide you don't want any of the items there (no good artifacts, no books you need, whatever). especially bad with vaults that have windows 19:43:49 maybe i should mention this when more people are online 19:49:03 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: bye] 19:56:27 -!- Senjai|GW2 is now known as Senjai 19:57:34 -!- magistern has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:58:29 FR: autoapport 19:59:13 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:22 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:09:00 -!- dg_ has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:13:13 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:43 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:18:04 -!- nooodl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:20:38 evilmike: I am not sure... like I said before, there are issues with the id game, but removing it altogether is throwing out the baby with the water, in my opinion. 20:20:52 evilmike: Also, I am afraid the early game would get duller that way. 20:21:11 solution: player starts in pan. at xl 1 20:21:40 daeva of overconfidence 20:21:54 dpeg: it probably would. but it may be that a drastic solution is warranted. I'm not fully convinced, but I think it's a solid argument 20:22:09 -!- Oddtwang has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:22:14 the ID game in crawl is very, very bad. One of the worst I've seen, really 20:22:36 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:41 the only worse ones would be games like diablo 2, where the "id game" is just a weird interface thing that has no gameplay effect 20:23:46 evilmike: I don't know. When we discussed this some hours ago, it turned out that (good) players had different approaches. 20:25:38 I wonder why nobody (me included) has ever approached like this: what do we want from the id game? Is it actually possible to achieve that? Etc. I believe we're stumbling in the dark. 20:27:05 I mainly see two problems. 1. crawl tries to have bad effects for some items, but fails horribly (the worst would be potions of mutation, which are practically the only reason people are careful about id-ing potions). 2. the curse system in crawl is a joke, past the very-early game, it doesn't matter unless you're with ashenzari 20:27:38 -!- ajikeshi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:27:38 both of these could be changed 20:28:10 btw we talked about !mut before, there were some interesting ideas 20:28:30 But I think one should start by thinking about an "ideal" id game. 20:29:16 crawl does succeed somewhat, where using id scrolls means you won't waste other consumables 20:29:24 that's the only part it does well, though 20:29:30 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:30:00 I said upthread that the basic tension is between "use-id now" or "wait until later to reduce item loss". 20:30:09 Does that work, or could it work? 20:30:17 detect curse is already gone, I doubt making curses more prominent has much weight. Actually I suspect that in a few years people will get sick of them and curses themselves will be removed from the game 20:30:35 evilmike: curses could be made a lot more interesting 20:30:53 ?DC is gone because it was superflous 20:31:27 every time I hear the argument "x could be made more interesting", x tends to get removed :P 20:31:59 examining items could be made more interesting 20:32:04 items and monsters 20:32:07 from a distance 20:32:35 evilmike: not true. Nobody liked Monk, I could save it with adding **. 20:32:40 (And there's more.) 20:33:14 Just requires someone to put actual effort into it. Yes, removal is always a solution, but in a sense the cheapest one. 20:34:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:35:02 oh, I didn't answer your question directly ( I wonder why nobody (me included) has ever approached like this: what do we want from the id game?) 20:35:17 my answer is very cynical: what we want from the id game is to be like other roguelikes 20:35:30 I don't understand. 20:35:49 Nethack does not do a good job at this, and I am not sure Brogue does. 20:37:06 I mean something simpler than that. "They do it, so we should too" 20:37:27 Here is how I see the status quo: The tension between (1) use-id (quaff multiple potions etc.) and (2) wait until later (scroll-id, shop-id, monster-id) should be meaningful. Advantage of (1): immediate information; disadvantage of (1): potential bad effects, loss of an item. 20:37:43 evilmike: I'm lousy at the id game. I wouldn't mind seeing it go 20:39:17 evilmike: On top of that, the id game has a function: there's little you can do in the early game (collect stuff, only have what your background offers to you). The id game would ideally provide decisions in the early game, making it less dull than it would be otherwise. 20:41:10 Hm, I don't think I am getting useful replies at this time. No more paragraphs. 20:41:20 I do think it succeeds in discouraging you to waste consumables. Not because of bad effects though, it's because you don't want to waste heal wounds or whatever 20:41:29 Jiyva lowered Int-stat to 0 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6130) by Eurtek 20:41:29 -!- Yig has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:41:36 evilmike: so taht's better than nothing 20:41:42 evilmike: did you play Light? 20:42:24 it would be nice if curses were something you only had to care about if you went ash, since they're so inconsequential now 20:42:28 no, I probably will when 0.2 is released though. I don't feel like building it myself or playing it online 20:42:58 elliott: this is certainly possible 20:43:49 only problem I see with that is: ash worshippers need *some* way to uncurse their stuff, but having remove curse everywhere for only one god is weird. possible solution: remove curse sacrifice turns into (free) ash ability to curse an item, piety-cost ability to remove a curse or something 20:44:05 hip shot: cursing adds random bad effect to item (plus stickyness). Amount of ?RC needed goes down with time (never less than 1). 20:44:16 03dolorous 07stone_soup-0.11 * r113ebca8bc0f 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Fix Mantis 6128: Don't mark unidentified wands of invisibility as useless. 20:44:27 -!- Daisuki has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:44:47 it would be interesting if curses were timed and unremovable 20:44:49 It would certainly be possible to have an interesting curse minigame. Just requires an open mind and ingenuity. 20:44:59 timing it is bad, it should go by xp gained like some other effects do 20:45:05 so equip-iding something is essentially saying, I am committing to use this from anywhere between M to N turns, even if it is bad 20:45:08 we shouldn't be adding more things that encourage waiting 20:45:08 evilmike: yes, of course. 20:45:10 evilmike: oh, that works too 20:45:58 dpeg: you would have to reduce remove curse frequency a lot for that, of course, since there is so much of it now... it sounds interesting but I am not sure what gain there is to being able to shorten the length (as opposed to it just being decided for you) of the curse 20:46:06 03greensnark * r7ef70193252e 10/crawl-ref/source/hiscores.cc: Make crash milestones use the correct time. 20:46:44 <|amethyst> ♥ greensnark 20:46:44 well, I don't deny that there is something that could be done here 20:46:59 elliott: not necessarily. Suppose you get your weapon cursed and now it is (no innate Regen, sticky, 5 ?RC needed). What now? 20:47:30 * Grunt wonders what kind of changes he would need to make to get a ♥. :-b 20:47:33 maybe you can tell, this is a bit of a sore spot for me. There are a few things in crawl that I'm very frustrated with, this is one of them 20:47:50 evilmike: what are the others? 20:47:58 <|amethyst> we ♥ Grunt just the way he is 20:48:08 <|amethyst> don't change, baby 20:48:11 Some of the worst Crawl starts I've had involve early wields of cursed non-chopping weapons. 20:48:16 dpeg: no innate regeneration sounds pretty awful, I'd use up the scrolls as soon as I get them (but you get 5 RC pretty fast...) 20:48:34 unless i was a deep dwarf :) 20:48:55 elliott: but now you can see where decisions might come from. No denying that currently it is extremely bland, unless in edge cases. 20:48:59 You do not heal naturally. You have a lightning-fast metabolism. You are an herbivore. 20:49:08 dpeg: right 20:49:25 <|amethyst> FR: deep centaurs 20:49:34 dpeg: what if a cursed item gave you a completely random mutation (including 1-3 levels at random, 3 being unlikely) that expired with the curse? 20:49:40 as in, it could be a /good/ mutation too 20:49:41 Grunt: We could allow butchering with blunt weapons... just make it take a long time? 20:49:52 I guess there are too many cursed items for that to work... it would let you get good mutations if you just equip stuff enough 20:49:55 evilmike: For comparison, here are my ones: resting all the the time. Branch commuting. 20:50:02 elliott: that sounds more like a good effect for a new item class 20:50:04 I'll just list all the ones I can think of: curse system, food system, brokenness of summons/ally play, the abyss, making midgame branches easy by doing them late, too much resting 20:50:10 Eronarn: right 20:50:10 ughh summons 20:50:24 there are a few more, if you give me enough time I can probably think of at least a dozen 20:50:25 evilmike: too many demons/undead 20:50:28 evilmike: hey, my ones are in your list :) 20:50:53 bh: allow butchering with blunt weapons. it just takes longer and makes crunchier food. 20:50:58 pate 20:51:05 evilmike: I am confident that given enough time and effort, all points off your list could be addressed -- bar the last one. And that makes me really sad. 20:51:11 dpeg: btw, you said berserk costs piety in that trog corpse sac thread on Tavern... does it really? I must have missed that getting added 20:51:18 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:51:22 elliott: ah, damn, you got me :) 20:51:30 you could just remove resting 20:51:34 make it work like hydra slayer 20:51:34 Zannick: exactly. As long as it takes longer than weapon swapping 20:51:42 you get HP back when you kill stuff 20:51:49 and only then 20:51:49 Eronarn: If we'd design from scratch, then yes. 20:51:49 I think all those issues I listed are fixable in theory. But none of them are easy (which is why I say "frustrating") 20:51:53 dpeg: heh :) 20:52:02 dpeg: it costs piety in Light, maybe you looked at the changelog too closely 20:53:02 evilmike: rune lock, summon cap, illustrious curses (I could come up with a system). I have no proposals for food and for resting. 20:53:17 those two might be the hardest ones 20:53:25 yes, I think so 20:53:28 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:53:31 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:53:52 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:53:55 ah, and there's a longstanding proposal to make Abyss difficulty depend on something (of the player), that'd help a lot 20:54:26 Food is especially annoying... almost every proposal out there (aside from "remove it") seems very questionable to me, in that it would make the game less fun 20:54:27 tome4 has random cursed items 20:54:33 (this includes ideas I've come up with btw) 20:54:34 dpeg, that gives me a couple of thoughts: 20:54:44 as one of the classes is 'you are afflicted wih a horrible curse that taints everything around you' 20:54:59 unique abyss monsters to reduce the ridiculously bleh monster set would personally be much higher priority then making the abyss respond to the player 20:55:04 in practice they aren't very fun because they just give you negative stats 20:55:05 1) we probably want to not make the abyssal rune too easy to obtain (it should be roughly the same difficulty, as with other runes). 20:55:07 elliott: instead of pointing out my mistakes, rather go to the Trog thread and support (1) piety hit for coward berserk, (2) piety from Trog sacrifice only when enraged. :) 20:55:15 however they do have some really cool 'curses' in the form of item drawbacks 20:55:21 regarding the abyss, I just think the whole design is rotten. Giving it a proper monster set / difficulty scaling would help one problem... but there are still all the othrs 20:55:24 others* 20:55:25 like: items that are immune to teleportation (they stay behind if you teleport!) 20:55:57 dpeg: hehe, I was legitimately curious -- I could understand adding a piety requirement for berserk 20:56:13 2) scaling the difficulty, particularly in cases where the player isn't voluntarily in the Abyss, might make said rune too easy to obtain. 20:56:14 evilmike: you're concerned with the grinding? I suggested ages ago that Abyss threat should increase continuously. 20:56:15 I have to admit I quite like the proposal there to auto-scarifice every corpse you create when berserk 20:56:16 ...leading to: 20:56:23 elliott: nah, auto is not fun. 20:56:26 i believe light's piety requirement for berserk is to balance the lack of food requirement (there's a glow cost but it's not really the same..) 20:56:46 I try to stay out of Tavern discussions though; so far this has been successful 20:56:53 3) if the Abyss difficulty scales with player something, perhaps i) it should not in the case where the player enters the Abyss voluntarily; ii) the rune shouldn't generate if the player is not there by choice. 20:56:53 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:22 I feel like I should be writing this out somewhere more permanent. 20:57:24 Grunt: all of this could be done, yes. (Threat could depend on voluntary vs forced, where player comes from, etc.) 20:57:35 Grunt: me too, but got to work in a moment anyway 20:57:49 and speaking of food systems, i have a bit of experience with light's. not having to eat is pretty nice, and glow costs do make it important to train things like spellcasting, but resting off glow is quite annoying. probably less so than food management though 20:58:24 I'd perfer it if the odds of the abyssal rune scaled with XL, but was still possible to find even at low XLs 20:58:38 Like I believe that stats should be made coarser (think only even numbers occur), food could be coarser as well. 20:58:44 everyone knows basing things on xl is bad though, Lightli 20:58:50 Lightli: XL is always the wrong currency :) 20:58:54 just make trog piety based on amount of blood shed 20:59:06 since bloodshed depends on damage done, berserking + fighting = +piety 20:59:07 Eronarn: actual blood? 20:59:09 yes 20:59:11 of course 20:59:12 nice 20:59:13 Eronarn: sounds good 20:59:14 stylish 20:59:22 Oh, overhauling Trog piety gain? 20:59:24 needs demon blood 20:59:38 demons should definitely have blood 20:59:40 Does this mean that I won't be having 6 stars of piety by D7 anymore? 20:59:42 and guts 20:59:52 Lightli: there is a forum campaign to remove Trog corpse sacrifice. 20:59:53 I've found it extremely difficult to get 6* of Trog piety. 21:00:01 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:00:02 Even as a Be. 21:00:25 Wait, what 21:00:40 the one thing with basing it on amount of blood shed would be blunt weapons 21:00:50 but i feel like it's okay if trog favors axes and blades heavily 21:00:52 Eronarn: yes, thinking the same 21:00:57 <|amethyst> I've had no problems getting there in Lair, but it's tough to maintain (usually I'd be at *****.) 21:01:19 also: this would mean trog with sbl is less good 21:01:21 I was thinking the one thing would be fast-but-low-damage weapons but I feel it's ok if trog favours big weapons 21:01:22 Anyone have a link to this campaign? 21:01:22 i feel like this is right 21:01:24 yeah 21:01:31 * Grunt recalls his DDBe ending at *** :b 21:01:32 stabbing makes tons of blood though 21:01:38 Lightli: third topic 21:01:43 The DDBe never hit ******, for that matter. 21:01:48 back to library 21:01:58 shouldn't really be able to stab while berserk imo. when does that even happen? distraction? 21:02:08 yes 21:02:13 also, randomly during combat 21:02:17 if you have stab skill 21:02:24 what 21:02:24 (but they're tiny stabs) 21:02:34 when did this happen 21:02:43 since as long as i've been playing 21:02:52 i feel like it is fine if you cannot stab while berserk because that requires some measure of precision 21:03:09 You are too berserk! 21:03:32 I'm guessing the piety for bloodshed would not replace piety on kills, so that short blades and maces wouldn't be left in the dust 21:03:33 also trog should probably still do a thing with bodies of the fallen 21:03:35 but not sacrificing 21:03:43 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:20 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:25 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 21:04:26 (would be losing piety gain in some areas of the game due to blood-only restriction) 21:08:04 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:11:39 re: the mailing list -- brogue monkeys are an annoying exercise in tedium. 21:14:46 ++ to that 21:15:19 although I don't know the context :p 21:15:39 elliott: someone suggested making our traps like Brogue monkeys. 21:16:11 ew 21:17:20 To soap box -- I find Brogue to be a tedious, unenjoyable, spoiley fest. 21:20:14 err, brogue spoils basically all its mechanics in-game 21:20:42 & I find dcss more tedious than brogue 21:22:50 dpeg: sorry for the late reply. the abyss is complicated, but I think the biggest problem is that the abyss only "works" at a certain midgame level. Too early and it's too hard. Too late and it's obscenely boring. It also doesn't help that the abyss encourages you to enter it in the lategame, when it's easy 21:23:24 there are other issues too. the layout isn't that fun (old or new version), the monster set is dull as well 21:23:29 grinding isn't really a big concern to me 21:23:46 I have some abyss plans for 41qys but I sort of doubt they'd work in dcss 21:24:06 evilmike: long ago there was talk of having the abyss ramp up difficulty based on time spent in the abyss 21:24:13 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:24:36 (abyss mirrors the normal dungeon, levels are non-persistent and generated from dungeon levels, with distorted versions of dungeon monsters with the effects of the distortion scaling with time spent in the abyss) 21:24:57 that way you get an easier abyss if you're banished early since it's generated from an early level 21:25:08 bh: this could only work to a certain degree. I've had games where I get 14 runes, and enter the abyss for the first time on my 15th (this is doable if you have tons of MR). In that case, the start of the abyss would still be too easy, even if it would eventually "scale up" 21:25:17 and a harder abyss if you're banished in say hell since it's generated from hell 21:25:40 monqy: theme the abyss around where you've been banished from? 21:25:48 ??pan 21:25:48 pan[1/7]: An infinite dungeon branch, Pandemonium consists of an infinite number of equally nasty dungeon-type levels. Pan levels are populated with demons instead of dungeon monsters. 21:25:58 the idea is to literally reuse the level 21:26:01 (except distorted) 21:26:21 that would be more fun (and easier to balance) than the dcss version, by the sounds of it 21:26:27 (similar to how when you get banished the abyss mimics where you were banished from, except it's the whole thing) 21:26:37 elliott: :-D 21:26:47 though we'd need to be careful to only use the part of the dungeon the player has seen 21:26:53 monqy: the idea for placing the rune is to replace the abyss entry vault on D:27 with the rune vault right 21:27:05 elliott: yeah 21:27:08 bh: right, I brought this up too when monqy told me about it -- I think that is fairly easy to do 21:27:10 (and then you have to escape the abyss) 21:27:15 -!- Senri has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:27:21 or the abyss could be like, subspace 21:27:26 you just generate another "fake" level for the bits you haven't seen and smudge the edges together... it'll be imperfect but it's the abyss so it's meant to look crooked 21:27:27 bh: for 41qys at least I feel that's a non-issue 21:27:27 if you're nuts you can use it to teleport 21:27:32 elliott: definitely, it's just a matter of checking the mask 21:27:37 monqy: 4lqys = ? 21:27:48 41qys is my crawl variant, based on 4.1 21:27:55 monqy: personally i'd prefer it if it avoided spoiling the map even in 41qys-crawl, but it's a minor implementation issue anyway 21:27:59 bh: if people want to explore the dungeon in the abyss, let them; it'll be more difficult and you won't get items 21:28:03 banish yourself, move through the abyss to your target area, unbanish yourself with lucy 21:28:39 monqy: my dislike is based on banishing giving you the map of the level you were on 21:28:47 not being able to explore from the abyss... but it's a minor issue 21:28:50 ontoclasm: Zot:5 21:28:51 -!- anony has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:29:17 -!- rangmere has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:29:28 if the abyss is based on reality, z:5 prime would be absurdly difficult too 21:30:02 Abyssal Orb Guardians. 21:30:33 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:30:59 i suppose it's probably a bad idea, but flavorwise, the idea of a lugonite warping her way into the orb chamber through the chaos dimensions sounds pretty sweet 21:31:51 Then there's re-banishing! Getting cast into a deeper abyss 21:32:11 With the deepest abyss being some cold, lonely empty place with some wisps of smoke drifting by 21:32:17 the abbbysszs 21:32:27 how would leaving the abyss work under this mechanic, anyway? 21:32:45 i guess you come out at the real location corresponding to where you were in the abyss 21:32:57 or roughly so at least 21:32:58 so does a portal just get placed randomly on the corrupted level? 21:33:20 i guess so 21:33:40 maybe it slides around in case it spawns over something dangerous? 21:34:18 problem is, some levels are small. like, it would be dumb if you got banished inside a zig for instance 21:34:26 hm 21:35:34 my plan for 41qys was to leave the abyss you had to leave the dungeon or whatever portal-branch you're in and then you're back where you were, but 41qys levels are a lot smaller than dcss levels so it might be tedious in dcss?? if you're banished from really deep in the dungeon you'll really feel the abyss scaling near D:1 of the abyss 21:36:49 also, dcss has persistent levels (and is keeping them). 41qys tosses that out, right? 21:36:57 no 21:37:10 oh, ok, i'm confusing it with some other weirder variant 21:37:21 you might be thinking of the fact that it's ironman 21:37:23 but it still has an orb run 21:37:31 ah, so it's rogue-style 21:37:51 41qys has persistent levels but the abyss is non-persistent 21:38:09 (at least that's the plan) 21:38:33 maybe the abyss floor is always the same size (i.e. the size of a standard floor) - a tiny zig level turns into a big floor which has a small clearing in the middle where the real level is, and sort of thickly-walled-but-still-passable terrain everywhere else 21:38:36 or wait, did rogue let you revisit levels on the way up, or did it create new ones? I never touched that game after beating it once 21:38:54 obviously if you try to exit into a wall you get rtele'd or whatever 21:39:06 evilmike: it generates new levels on the way up 21:39:25 the original rogue had no space in memory to store old levels so they vanished as soon as you stepped off them 21:41:40 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:42:00 enforced "ironman" conduct sounds fun though. it sounds like the tournament will have a banner for something similar to that 21:43:15 I really feel like the better tournament banners could be an official feature of crawl. A sort of achievements system. Offline players would appreciate it 21:45:19 evilmike: not quite, the tournament banner lets you return after you complete a branch 21:45:26 so you can still trudge all the way back to lair:2 from d:27 to manage your stash or whatever 21:45:27 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:45:38 but it is fairly close, in that you have to push on in a branch, yeah 21:48:06 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:49:10 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:49:19 oh hello 21:50:19 -!- anubiscrapfoobis has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:50:20 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: Counted eleven steps when his brain said ten.] 21:57:17 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:22 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:59:58 -!- HangedMan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:02 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:11 huh. I couldn't find some code (that I didn't write) so I started googling for it. It turns out I had a copy on github. 22:07:37 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 22:18:32 -!- rossi_ has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:20:14 bh: you're like that guy from Memento, except instead of tattoos you have github repos 22:20:28 bhickey/my_best_friend_killed_my_wife 22:20:50 Wensley: The protagonist *is* John G. He killed his own wife. 22:21:14 <|amethyst> Snape kills Trinity with Rosebud! 22:21:16 i don't think john. g was ever his best friend either, he thought it was just some random thug 22:21:20 been too long since I saw memento, I cannot comment 22:21:39 its a really weird movie. the twist is that he's been going around killing random dudes named john g, for some time 22:22:35 <|amethyst> the collector's edition DVD has a psych test you can take; if you answer correctly, you can watch the movie in chronological order 22:22:43 |amethyst: spoiler allert. Thanks. 22:22:57 That sounds like a very dull film. 22:23:04 It's better than it sounds. 22:23:06 Very much so. 22:23:55 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:53 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:25:53 -!- KKCryptic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:28:14 <|amethyst> same guy who did Inception and the new Batman films 22:28:36 <|amethyst> make of that what you will :) 22:29:21 he seems to go back and forth between big movies like those, and smaller psychological thrillers 22:30:09 although, I guess it's been a while since he made one of those 22:30:23 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:33:03 -!- fooobaar has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:33:45 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:50 -!- pelotron has quit [Quit: ~Internet()] 22:38:18 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 22:41:44 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:53:36 -!- y2s82 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:29 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:56:26 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:45 -!- rangmere has joined ##crawl-dev 22:57:13 -!- naalis has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 22:57:19 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC] 22:58:54 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 23:04:10 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:07:24 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:38 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:11:46 -!- rangmere has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:12:32 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:50 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14:03 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:19:06 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:20:09 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:20:53 -!- Stelpa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:07 03|amethyst * r4af09d87bf3e 10/crawl-ref/source/player-stats.cc: Don't Jiyva-shuffle stats to zero (#6130). 23:30:04 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.11 * r9c49753a9d51 10/crawl-ref/source/player-stats.cc: Don't Jiyva-shuffle stats to zero (#6130). 23:31:32 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:32:00 -!- Oldwon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:32:29 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:33:20 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:43:38 -!- Deathmic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:42 getting murdered by Jiyva is rough 23:47:35 <|amethyst> yeah, player-murdering interferes too much with Xom's portfolio 23:47:59 fr: Do Xom-shuffle stats to zero. 23:48:25 Xom says, "Thinking is for squares." 23:48:46 What if Xom zeroed out a stat but refused to let you die? 23:49:25 <|amethyst> zero the stat but temporarily raise it back to its normal value ever 20 turns :) 23:49:39 that might actually be an interesting bad action 23:49:57 -!- Nerem has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:04 since brainless is like blurry vision 4 or something 23:50:04 xom lowers your stats until you overflow 23:50:14 that was fixed I think 23:50:20 ontoclasm: don't forget about 0 MP 23:50:38 i know 0 str and 0 dex have effects too but i forget what they are 23:50:44 in some old version, you could theoretically max every stat by underflowing them w/ shuffle cards 23:50:46 being dead 23:51:11 there was a crashy way to get 127 of a stat, and a less crashy way to get 72 in everything (would need to farm hundreds of shuffle cards though) 23:51:30 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:57 L99 is easy, you just need to find one rare candy and a missingno 23:53:48 if you hang around cinnabar island long enough you can find jiyva as a monster 23:54:27 If you murder the Royal Jelly as a Jiyva worshipper, Jiyva doesn't die -- right? 23:54:36 crawl's version of missingno: 23:54:43 !lg * killer=MONS_JOZEF 23:54:43 No games for * (killer=MONS JOZEF). 23:54:43 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 23:54:44 <|amethyst> bh: correct 23:54:45 bh: he doesn't die until your wrath is up 23:54:56 <|amethyst> oh, right 23:54:57 he is sustatined by pure hatred 23:55:04 hmm I guess I queried it wrong (someone died to "a removed mons_jozef") 23:55:07 fr: ghost jellies 23:56:05 You can't kill the Royal Jelly and then mollify Jiyva? 23:56:19 "I'm the *new* Royal Jelly, boss." 23:59:21 !lg * killer=~removed 23:59:26 1. OneEyedJack the Ripper (L12 FeMo), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a removed MONS JOZEF (bolt of poison) in D:12 on 2012-08-08, with 17980 points after 34331 turns and 1:44:13.