00:02:40 Stable (0.11) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.11-b1-68-ga8394cf 00:04:49 Ok, I think I MIGHT have made too many vaults now. Wait, not true. 00:04:56 I'll just make more after I sleep for the night. 00:07:07 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:07:57 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-218-g22456a9 (34) 00:11:52 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:13:51 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:09 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: WOOOOOOOOOOOOO] 00:28:09 -!- Exister has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:17 -!- Exister_ is now known as Exister 00:36:50 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:46:40 -!- araganzar has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:47:16 -!- Plasmo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:09:34 -!- drunkanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:43 -!- pantaril_ has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:42 -!- inde2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:20:36 -!- tensorpudding_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:23:13 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 01:28:20 -!- Senri_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:31:39 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:32:13 -!- Senjai|GW2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:34:07 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:38:09 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:39:41 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:42:27 -!- elliott has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:05 -!- freefall has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:25 -!- freefall has joined ##crawl-dev 01:45:03 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 01:45:07 -!- Ragnor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:45:58 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:46:01 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 01:46:05 -!- PollyEsther has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:09 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Changing host] 01:46:09 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:46:12 -!- Silurio has quit [Changing host] 01:46:41 -!- ajikeshi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:52:48 -!- Ragnor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:46 -!- tensorpudding_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:03:09 are there still situations where ending a transformation takes time? the description still says "with a short delay" 02:05:03 it takes 1.5 aut, so that description isn't totally inaccurate... it's worth pointing out to players that it's slightly longer than a standard action 02:09:21 -!- SirVaulterScoff has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:25 You mean 15 aut? 02:10:56 Or is aut done in tenths now I didn't notice? 02:16:48 -!- ZebTM has quit [] 02:18:33 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:47 yeah sorry, I meant 15 02:22:34 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:24:53 well, the game displays it as 1.5 02:45:36 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:48:02 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:51 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:20:15 -!- RollieTG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:53 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29:46 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:33:53 -!- Syrio has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:43:10 -!- Guest42069 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:50:51 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:53:01 -!- Exister has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:04:00 -!- Exister has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:04:29 -!- ZebTM has quit [] 04:05:12 -!- DainHome has quit [Changing host] 04:20:00 -!- nago has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:27:06 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:29:36 -!- evilmike has quit [] 04:47:25 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:07 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:18 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:57:29 -!- wasd22 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:04:07 kilobyte: isn't it to be expected that rarity is lower at the edge of a big range? 05:04:15 that sounds natural to me 05:05:11 regarding the 3.5 rarity distorsion, I'd say just round it up. 05:05:41 better to have simplicity and avoid special cases rather than focus on keeping status quo 05:06:42 -!- fungee has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:07:09 also, I'm still wondering if it would be better to have native/range instead of min/max, to avoid negative numbers 05:18:08 -!- purge_ has quit [Quit: .] 05:18:55 -!- yaktaurslayer has quit [Client Quit] 05:19:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:27:55 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:28:07 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:27 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:02 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:50 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:55 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:12:18 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:13 !seen alefury 06:13:13 I last saw alefury at Sun Aug 26 23:59:06 2012 UTC (11h 14m 7s ago) quitting without a message. 06:27:02 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:27:45 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:10 !tell alefury I've looked at your directional sound patch and given feedback on mantis 06:33:10 galehar: OK, I'll let alefury know. 06:36:18 im right here you know 06:36:18 alefury: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:37:34 the fuzzing is quite weak 06:38:10 if something is directly north of you, it will still always say "north" 06:38:29 just if its near the border between two adjectives it will sometimes be one or the other 06:38:48 i agree that it is not necessary, and its easy to change the default in shout.h 06:39:58 i agree that the sentences sometimes sound a little weird 06:41:01 the restriction that all the distance advectives have to start with a consonant is also a bit to blame for that 06:41:23 could be removed by passing an additional parameter specifying whether to add a/an to the adjective or not 06:42:17 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:56 most sound messages dont have distance or loudness indication by the way, and very few messages actually go through noisy 06:43:07 heh, I !seen'd you 20 minutes ago, and I have joined/quit messages disabled :) 06:43:47 well, maybe we should make them go through noisy and have it add the directional adjective 06:44:08 i thought about that, but decided to go for more limited changes 06:44:21 i already did a lot more stuff than it says on the label 06:44:29 I don't think the distance indication is useful. On the other hand, it makes the message wordy and sometimes very strange. 06:44:33 added a few missing silence checks and stuff like that 06:45:04 well, at the very least, messages that do go through noisy should get a directional indication 06:45:19 the distance indication is actually quite useful, because lots of sound messages dont get attenuated 06:45:33 if we changed (corrected) that, it could easily be dropped 06:45:58 i added the direction indication directly to the messages 06:46:03 instead of adding them in noisy 06:46:26 why? It's more work 06:46:47 noisy gets the message and the origin 06:46:56 try grepping for noisy and look how many of them get a message 06:47:02 doing it there avoid duplication 06:47:02 iirc, not many 06:47:37 cleaning the noise stuff up and making it consistent would be good 06:48:14 i can make noisy replace %direction% and %distance% or some other placeholder of course, and i agree that it would make a lot of sense if noisy was actually used more, and with a message 06:48:14 that's my point 06:48:45 tbh i also dont quite get what noisy does 06:48:46 at the very least, there's not reason not to add a direction to the messages that do use noisy 06:49:01 it does propagation and attenuation of noise 06:49:05 i think it uses a much simpler attenuation than the proper noise code? 06:49:25 or at least the return value does? 06:49:49 there was a comment to that effect 06:50:40 only the callers that use the msg boolean have the simple old system 06:50:53 otherwise, it goes through the noise_grid 06:52:56 ill take another look when i get home 06:53:24 we could even use perceived_position instead of fuzzing, that might be fun 06:54:09 one problem with making more stuff go through noisy is that many sound messages are actually not supposed to be missable 06:54:30 the player needs to be told something he cant see, so it was flavored as hearing, even if its at the other end of the dungeon 06:55:03 i dont really feel comfortable changing lots of messages to be missable that currently arent 06:55:27 sure, we probably need to evaluate them case by base 06:55:55 strange, I can't find where the noises going through the grid are printed 06:56:44 seems like _actor_apply_noise should be the one doing it, but it doesn't 06:58:21 -!- nooodl has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:58:54 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 07:02:02 from what i see any messages are handled by a simple distance <= loudness check 07:03:14 directly in noisy 07:03:43 player_can_hear is just a silence check iirc 07:04:24 for player location and the passed location 07:08:48 oh, so the noise propagation system is only relevant for sounds heard by monsters 07:08:51 that's weird 07:09:43 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:09:57 so here is something strange about quiver: ( cycles forward, ) cycles backward. Isn't it wrong? 07:11:27 manual and in-game help only says that '(' and ')' are for cycling, doesn't say which is which 07:16:03 ok, fixing it. Yell at me before I push if you disagree. 07:20:47 I'm also getting rid of _base_cost() for skills. This means that spellcasting, stealth, invoc and evoc won't have a hidden different cost anymore. 07:21:03 species aptitudes will be adjusted 07:21:09 yay! 07:21:22 so humans will be -1 spellcasting, +1 evoc +1 invoc +1 stealth, like they used to in 0.6 07:21:25 yay 07:21:27 how much will the costs change? 07:21:49 no gameplay change, just the interface won't lie anymore 07:21:51 so we get a +6 apt? 07:22:02 oh 07:22:08 haven't thought of that :) 07:22:14 im pretty sure you cant exactly replicate 30% with the aptitude system 07:22:27 or however much the cost difference is 07:22:54 alefury: oh, yeah, there is probably an insignificant difference which I won't bother to calculate 07:23:25 I think naga can take the stealth nerf, I doubt there is anything significant going from +6 to +5 07:23:39 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:21 alefury: but the change is the same which was done in 0.7 when we went from 100 based apt to -5/+5 07:24:30 130 became -1 and 80 became +1 07:25:20 -1 is 119, +1 is 84 07:25:26 if i calculated correctly 07:25:35 -2 is 141 07:26:02 so going with -1 spc would be a slight buff 07:26:08 very slight :) 07:27:00 -!- Sab0t has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:27:41 well, going with +1 instead of 80 is a slight nerf, so i guess it kind of balances out in the end... 07:28:00 +2 is 71 07:28:45 I support showing the Spc penalty in the aptitudes, fwiw. 07:28:53 definitely 07:29:06 dpeg: that's what I'm doing 07:29:10 yay 07:29:17 I'm removing the hidden special costs 07:29:29 I hope I wasn't one of the naysayers back then. "But Humans should be uniformly zero." 07:29:35 humans will be -1 Spc, +1 Evoc, +1 Invoc, +1 Stealth 07:29:40 good! 07:29:59 the only balance change: Naga stay at +5 stealth 07:30:15 Naga nerf! How could you!!1! 07:30:42 it's to counterbalance constriction ;) 07:31:17 bbbbut Na constriction is only XL 12 now... you only design for expert players, that's it! :) 07:31:19 anyway, that might be a good occasion to adjust some aptitudes 07:31:34 galehar: interesting... what changes do you have in mind? 07:31:41 none 07:31:44 haha 07:32:13 I'd always ask elliptic, MarvinPA and the rest of the good players for that. 07:32:38 dpeg: also, are you aware that the cycling ammo commands are reversed: '('=backward, ')'=forward 07:32:43 I guess now would be a good time for me to check if deep elves are still +0 earth with flavour text saying they're particularly good at it 07:32:49 I mean the opposite 07:33:03 ')' is forward 07:33:07 seems dumb 07:33:14 arg 07:33:30 seems liek it's so dumb, I can't even type it 07:33:42 '(' is forward 07:34:22 "liek"? are you sure you cant type it only because its dumb? :P 07:34:39 * galehar eats his keyboard 07:34:54 galehar: I was aware that there was always something iffy with ammo cycling. I believe it worked properly at some point. 07:35:13 it's not bugged, it's just how the commands are assigned 07:35:15 indeed 0 earth, and "they developed their mental powers, evolving a natural gift for all forms of magic (including necromancy and earth magic" 07:35:22 tsk tsk 07:35:46 monqy: perhaps they used to have 110 back then, which got rounded down to 0 in 0.8? 07:35:50 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:52 ??test 07:35:53 summon butterflies[4/5]: 12Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 9Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 4Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 8Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 11Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ7 Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 6Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ6 10Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 07:35:59 galehar: swapping would make sense, yes. 07:36:15 dpeg: I figure it's in reference to high elves, grey elves, and elf elves, which presumably were bad at earth 07:36:19 -!- y2s82 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36:52 monqy: and/or that. 07:37:18 -!- voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:37:27 old version on chaosforge wiki says 100 earth 07:37:42 yay, the wiki is useful! 07:37:56 (for finding outdated information) 07:38:16 alefury: recently I needed a list of removed backgrounds and, again, the wiki came in handy. 07:38:48 i used the wiki a lot when i started playing, and learned a lot from it, so i dont hate it as much as some people 07:39:13 might have caused some bad habits, though, im not sure 07:39:24 the wiki is great. The only problem is that "rSlow is too rare 07:39:49 there are a few other problems, like flat out bad content in some places 07:39:58 not outdated, just bad 07:40:12 A community always has the wiki it deserves. 07:40:23 Sometimes outdated results in very bad advice. Like using berserk to run for the stairs. 07:40:31 also that good players tend to not use it much because they dont need to, so the bad content doesnt get killed like it should be 07:41:33 editing the knowledge bots waves the change right in front of a lot of good players faces, editing the wiki does no such thing 07:42:03 the learndb has a lot of outdated info too of course, in entries nobody reads 07:42:16 or that only get read in the webinterface 07:42:22 ?badideas 07:42:32 those are gone 07:42:35 I cannot even do it anymore. --- aha 07:42:38 ??bad ideas 07:42:39 bad ideas[1/1]: See http://crawl.akrasiac.org/bad_ideas.txt or http://sites.google.com/site/cherrypickedbadideas/ for ortoslon's selection of ~100 favorites. 07:42:48 I promised we'd implement #666. 07:43:05 cant even access them, cao is down 07:43:13 there's ??implemented bad ideas :-) 07:43:26 I think there should have been an announcement of CDO downtime on the homepage. 07:43:35 ??implemented bad ideas 07:43:35 implemented bad ideas[1/13]: When you hit an ogre with a long blade, instead of opening it like a pillowcase, you dice the ogre like an onion!!! 07:43:47 That was Johanna. 07:44:31 dpeg: who can write announcements? 07:45:09 if i knew who to incessantly bother about them there might be more announcements :) 07:46:10 erm, unfortunately I can 07:46:26 So bother me! 07:46:48 okay, will do :) 07:49:08 Add this to the Abyss description: “Well, in our country,” said Alice, still panting a little, “you’d generally get to somewhere else — if you ran very fast for a long time, as we’ve been doing.” “A slow sort of country!” said the Queen. “Now here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at... 07:49:09 ...least twice as fast... 07:49:11 ...as that!” 07:49:12 i like that bad idea 07:52:09 I can write announcements, I just can't post them anywhere :) 07:52:29 I often just write announcements and then immediately delete them out of exasperation 07:56:16 alefury: you can submit quotes in transifex 07:56:59 Wensley: I think all devs have access to wordpress. Or at least should 07:57:39 Wensley: don't -- if you mail me, I can put it online. 07:57:48 but of course, we're too busy play^H^H^H coding, so we don't have time to write stupid annoucments 07:58:27 not all devs have access to wordpress 07:58:34 AFAIK its just a few people actually 07:58:45 btw, Napkin said 2 days ago that heat problem was over and he just didn't had time to reactivate access to CDO 07:59:14 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:00 galehar: btw, i ran into trouble when testing out of sight casting noise messages. the trouble was, there were no messages 08:00:06 can't anyone else do it? 08:00:18 well it's partially up at least 08:00:19 ??is cdo down 08:00:20 is cdo down[1/1]: ssh works, webtiles is down 08:00:22 there are messages in the code, they just dont appear 08:00:33 gretell appears to be down too 08:01:04 Cannot do telnet crawl.develz.org 345 08:01:32 dpeg: try this new thingy youngers are using: ssh 08:02:40 Whippersnappers! Telnet was good enough in 1870, it's good enough today. 08:03:00 or maybe monsters dont cast spells out of sight? i tried to test it by summoning stuff, then wizard-teleporting away 08:03:36 alefury: looking at the user list of wordpress, seems like of the active devs, only evilmike and grunt don't have an account 08:04:16 * galehar kicks dpeg's vax steam machine 08:05:20 ah, good to know 08:06:05 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 08:06:23 galehar: now I have to replace 24 J-K master-slave flip flops. 08:11:57 -!- Alexor has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:16:52 dpeg: the concept of master-slave flip-flops didn't emerge until at least 1930, long after babbage's Telnet Machine was invented 08:18:04 dpeg: also I think it's probably a bit late to write an annoucement for CDO being down (it's been down for weeks! surely either you know by now or you don't care) 08:18:48 Wensley: yes, I know 08:18:55 for weeks??? 08:19:15 I didn't know, since I played on it yesterday I assumed it was up :D 08:19:37 CAO was down for weeks. 08:20:28 if it's back up, that could be worthy of an annoucement 08:20:35 ssh was certainly down before 08:21:09 yeah 08:21:35 I am actually writing an article (maths, that is). If someone sends me an announcement, I'll get it onto the wordpress. 08:21:53 but if possible I'd like to get a timeframe from nap king on when webtiles will be back up 08:23:04 even if it is just "not any time soon" 08:23:16 ??tournament 08:23:16 tournament[1/4]: The 0.11 tournament will be sometime in September. Dates will be announced once CAO's fate is known. 08:24:21 Napkin: Hast du einen Augenblick Zeit fr uns? 08:24:37 gerade meeting, melde mich 08:25:36 Prima, danke! 08:26:18 Does the nap king have some kind of hilight on german? :D 08:26:27 No, on politeness. 08:27:18 :) 08:27:23 And his nick too maybe. 08:27:29 a highlight on would catch a lot of german, though 08:27:34 Napkin: super, vielen dank 08:27:40 or 08:27:43 illy letter. 08:27:59 would be thwarted by our new favorite abbreviation of cszo 08:28:07 indeed 08:28:47 Ich sa in der groen Scheie. 08:28:58 ^ you cannot write any half-decent German sentence without . 08:29:26 ;) 08:31:49 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:39 i edited the development planning page: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:planning 08:33:02 pretty please, devs, review that and edit as needed, because i just made up the feature list 08:33:23 alefury: as a rule of thumb, always have a boldface line "MORE GODS" 08:33:44 i only added stuff i know people are actually working or planning to work on 08:34:10 was a joke (unfortunately) 08:37:10 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:38:11 * bhaak hopes that someday the brain-washed German people will see the light of freedom and throw down the chain of the oppression by the that binds them 08:40:55 * dpeg makes a call to both the secretaries for finances and for war^H^H^H defence: time to storm the Schweiz. 08:42:01 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:09 03galehar * rcb5881f43b3e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (aptitudes.h skills2.cc): Remove the hidden special cost of some skills, adjust aptitudes. 08:42:09 03galehar * rdf4b60b1d275 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Update the changelog. 08:42:09 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.11 * rf6d8ac8fe259 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Add sacrifice_before_explore to the changelog. 08:42:10 03galehar * r52d8903b5067 10/crawl-ref/source/cmd-keys.h: Swap the cycle quiver commands. 08:42:10 03galehar * rc8484b08f6e8 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/new_dev_checklist.txt: Add wordpress account creation to the new dev checklist. 08:42:41 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:47:15 galehar: awesome changelog: "removed, removed, removed" 08:48:30 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:54:51 MarvinPA did all the killing, I'm just reporting it :) 08:55:19 Let 08:55:24 's all hear it for MarvinPA :) 08:56:03 I removed a bunch of std:: but players couldn't care less :) 08:57:24 Cannot go wrong with sexually transmitted diseases from a video game. "Son, did you wash your hands? You've been playing this Crawl again!" 08:58:08 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59:25 -!- CannibalFerox has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:12:23 Xtahua (05D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 19 | HP: 133 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Dam: 35, 17, 2007(trample) | 10doors, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(177), 05fire++, 03poison, 12drown | Vul: 12cold | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 5449 | Sp: flame blast (3d38) | Sz: Huge | Int: normal. 09:12:23 <|amethyst> %??xtahua 09:12:24 <|amethyst> doh 09:12:25 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:58 -!- One-Eyed has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:19:13 -!- _jeek is now known as jeek 09:22:52 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24:10 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:24:48 dpeg: what's up? 09:29:57 something about webtiles and when it is coming back i think 09:30:04 Napkin: Any idea when CDO webtiles will be up again? 09:30:42 maybe not? i have no time to update it :-$ 09:30:52 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:31:53 -!- dg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:57 aren't there enough webtiles servers already now? 09:33:10 Napkin: not in Europe :) The real thing is taht we would like to make an announcement on the CDO homepage and we don't really know what to write. 09:33:27 Napkin: You want to cut webtiles from CDO? 09:33:57 that would suck :( 09:34:00 well, it's been a year and i haven't managed to script a proper update process 09:34:19 maybe steal amethyst's? 09:34:21 * dpeg has hopes that the new servers will make maintaining this easier... 09:34:39 i'm also switching to a new server 09:35:14 Napkin: I have no personal opinion -- what are tiles anyway? Should we say that "bis auf Weiteres, only console auf CDO"? 09:35:23 but also, edlothiol changed a lot 09:36:08 -!- chewymouse has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:36:15 !seen edlothiol 09:36:15 I last saw edlothiol at Mon Aug 27 11:42:17 2012 UTC (2h 53m 58s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection. 09:36:17 i'm also getting a lot of memory paging fault from the webtile processes, lots of zombies, lots of unclean files 09:36:32 and the box is horribly slow when serving webtiles 09:36:36 Our Napkin is burned out :( 09:36:50 hehe 09:36:55 !beer Napkin 09:37:10 just busy and not motivated to plan&hack 09:37:15 thanks! 09:37:22 about time - i should leave this office! 09:37:27 laters o/ 09:37:58 ooooh, a beer would be nice right now... 09:38:04 maybe I should get one from the fridge. 09:38:05 later! 09:38:53 I got a mail from our server admin today, saying basically "I set up a test server for you guys, tell me if you need any more of them", maybe I should set up another crawl-server? :D 09:38:57 cgo. 09:39:06 cgn* 09:39:11 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:40:38 ghallberg: how much load could it carry? And where is it located? 09:41:05 dpeg: wasn't very serious actually. 09:41:38 As an unpayed thesis worker I don't think I'd get away with that :) 09:42:47 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 09:43:29 ghallberg: thesis on what? 09:43:37 oh, unpaid -- social sciences? 09:44:18 Nah, comp sci actually 09:44:55 Consistent routing with fault tolerance. 09:45:42 Basically there are producers and consumers, and all messages from producers have a key, and all messages with the same key need to arrive at the same consumer. 09:45:54 And this is all fine and dandy as long as the consumers are fixed. 09:46:03 In Germany? And not even half salary? :( 09:46:24 But we're extending the system to allow adding and removing consumers dynamically, 09:46:41 In sweden actually. I'm still on student loan. 09:47:11 There isn't really a culture of salaried positions for thesis writing here :( 09:47:15 Would have been nice. 09:50:17 so, who's up to make the annoucement that there will probably be no more webtiles on CDO? 09:50:32 -!- voker57 has quit [Changing host] 09:50:40 maybe it's time to set up a new server 09:51:50 galehar: Didn't two just go up? 09:52:09 once |amethyst has written proper documentation, or even better set up a debian package 09:52:14 ghallberg: in US 09:52:21 there's no webtiles in europe 09:52:32 ah 09:53:59 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 09:57:42 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:04:25 -!- tJener has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:07:40 hm. leaving the ITEM line blank is the same thing as "ITEM: any; any; any; any; any; any; any; any", right? 10:08:05 03dolorous * r8e9bf5dc2fd1 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Mention troll hide drop changes in the changelog. 10:08:06 03dolorous * r8dd6ab527d02 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Fix changelog entry punctuation. 10:08:46 alefury: thanks for the planning update! I think it's a pretty good start. 10:09:19 seems like there's all the urgent stuff 10:09:33 let's code that before adding more 10:10:49 i think its nice to have the things people are actually working on on that page, and im sure i missed some of those 10:28:04 Napkin: When you have the time, any chance you could turn Gretell back on? Also "Where" info seems to be missing currently. Thanks :) 10:30:32 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 10:32:50 by the way, there is a huge amount of design work on https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:concept:wrath 10:33:03 it might be good to actually code that 10:33:34 alefury: Part of that is my stuff, and too complicated. If someone wants to go there (and it's been carried along since 0.5 or so), I promise to revise. 10:34:01 * dpeg recalls how Erik was making to-do's for upcoming versions, and they all had "combat reform" in them. :) 10:34:22 the general concept of wrath and severity doesnt seem too complicated 10:34:43 im currently reading through the individual wrath effects, so far they dont seem very complicated either 10:35:03 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:35:16 alefury: I am open to discuss all of this (for me, email is good, but other channels work to). 10:35:54 I agree that it's a bit too ambitious, but overhauling wrath would be great 10:36:14 as a scaling factor, we could simply use "total piety gained" 10:36:16 i think it needs to be ambitious, because current wrath really sucks 10:37:08 -!- anubiscrapfoobis has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:37:13 and its important to adjust wrath individually for each god because of flavor 10:37:19 what's nice with using total piety gained, is that it increase faster if you use god powers a lot. If you stall at high piety, it increases slowly (or not if you cap) 10:37:36 for example for most gods wrath could go down by earning exp, but for some it might be flavorful to require some action by the player 10:38:18 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:38:32 like following god conduct? 10:38:33 what about gift timeout? should it be included in piety gained? or should wrath be special-cased to be increased when you receive a gift? 10:38:47 no, like actually fighting god summons instead of teleporting away 10:39:24 gifts reduce piety which is then gained back, so I'm not sure there's anything to do about it 10:39:26 actually, this would still allow waiting out the wrath, might not be such a good idea 10:39:53 imo it would be flavorful and also good gameplay if a god gets angry if you take the gifts and run 10:39:59 especially early gifts, like kiku books 10:40:33 -!- pantaril has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:40:48 if you get a permanent benefit from a god wrath should be harsher than if you only get benefits while you actually worship the god 10:40:49 anyway, I don't think anyone has show interested in working on wraths lately 10:41:03 i might do it 10:41:34 evilmike has talked about nerfing gods by increasing the piety cost of many powers 10:41:35 its fairly self-contained (if you get rid of wrath miscasts), and much design is already done 10:41:45 oh nice 10:42:03 well, then let's polish up wrath's design :) 10:42:16 i would prefer faster piety decay and gain, maybe some increased power costs 10:42:32 generally i think gods would be even more interesting if piety fluctuated more 10:43:04 also, crawl badly needs a clock, and piety is the only decent nonlethal one i can think of 10:44:13 -!- Adeon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:16 -!- Exister has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:44:28 god wrath is a pretty big project i guess, but if i get some help with the design i think im up to it 10:45:03 also, i think everyone agrees that something needs to be done. just getting people to agree on what should be done might be difficult. :) 10:45:41 dpeg: is your gitorious email adress still valid? 10:45:51 well, I can certainly help with the design (both game and code). And dpeg too 10:45:56 (fu-berlin.de) 10:46:47 alefury: yes! 10:47:18 dpeg: so, homework! simplify the wrath design and freshen up the wiki page 10:47:27 code for instant wrath effects wont be that difficult i think, just permanent effects may be quite annoying 10:47:37 dpeg: what do you think about using total piety gained for scaling wrath? 10:48:01 I'm not sure we need 2 values (wrath and severity) 10:48:14 i like having both 10:48:41 especially the bit where wrath decreases but severity is constant, and actual wrath power depends on wrath half the time, on severity the other half 10:49:00 alefury: added vehumet to the 0.12 planning 10:49:00 more expensive costs sound good -- that's an area where I'd suggest an approximational approach (as we do with branch cutting): bit by bit. 10:49:05 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 10:49:23 elliptic: what do you mean with "where info seems missing"? 10:49:37 galehar: "total piety" is different from "maximum piety"? 10:49:55 Napkin: in the list of games when spectating, the where column is empty 10:50:05 yes. It keeps increasing and has no cap (maybe a stepdown) 10:50:06 -!- xnavy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:50:17 Napkin: thanks for turning Gretell on :) 10:50:28 ah, ok - should be shown now 10:50:29 Napkin: Ja. Danke fr alles! 10:50:38 Napkin: ah, yes, looks good :) 10:50:46 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:59 great :) 10:50:59 some fairly crucial design bits: 1) should it ever be possible to wait out wrath? 2) should wrath be capped somehow? 10:51:11 galehar: Yes, probably better than my maximum piety proposal. It is so easy to get ****** piety with many gods, and there's a huge difference between getting ****** at XL 10 in Lair, or cruising Zot. 10:51:14 2) i think clearly yes, at least the duration should be capped 10:51:24 alefury: 1) NO. 2) Depends. 10:51:38 1) im not so sure. depends on your definition of "wait out" 10:51:47 alefury: waiting out shouldn't do anything. We really need to avoid it, it's dumb 10:52:16 alefury: I like a stepdown more than a cap. 10:52:30 alefury: why should duration be capped? This is exactly what encourages waiting out. Suppose we tie wrath effects to incoming experience -- what if a player decides to gain no xp for 10^6 turns? 10:52:31 if you allow some action like killing god summons to decrease wrath, and these summons are based on time, you can still get rid of the wrath without actually progressing through a dangerous area 10:52:43 but a lot of interesting things are possible with that 10:52:49 Yes, stepdown is better. 10:53:21 maybe if the occurence of wrath effects was based on exp this problem could be avoided 10:53:32 kind of like potion of evolution works 10:53:40 alefury: hey, sounds familiar (I had thoughts like these for a while). But I'd say: if it can be grinded (this includes preparations of many kinds), it's not good. 10:53:40 ehh, evolution mutation 10:53:43 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:53:46 if killing summons reduce wrath, then you can wait in the temple for them and kill them safely to reduce wrath. 10:53:59 galehar: not if the summons only occur if you earn exp 10:53:59 if killing summons do nothing, then you teleport when they come. 10:54:04 -!- Exister has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:54:14 hmm 10:54:26 it can be done properly, I believe... needs time and thought 10:54:31 * dpeg awaits an email. 10:54:45 (not when you earn exp, but the chance for summons to appear each turn increases as you earn exp, like for evolution) 10:55:04 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:55:15 alefury: I'll buy you as many beers as you want if you code new wraths. For that opens up: <3 Lugonu <3 10:55:48 the thing i dont like about a stepdown is the potential for infinite growth 10:55:56 asymptotic functions 10:56:02 abandoning a gifting god after doing 3 zigs might mean you get wrathed forever and ever 10:56:21 current stepdown is logarithmic i think 10:56:29 well, it shouldn't matter how long is the wrath if you've already finished 3 zigs 10:57:00 at that point, you should be able to handle several god's wraths 10:57:05 alefury: that is basically okay 10:57:13 galehar: of course, but maybe not while doing another zig :( 10:57:26 having to scum pan to wait out wrath would kind of suck 10:58:22 As I see it, we want three different types of wrath: (1) little wrath (really harmless) if you abandon real early (say only got to *** at all); (2) some wrath if you properly used the god and then dumped the poor thing (say ditch Makhleb for TSO), (3) eternal wrath for changing gods after zigs. 10:58:43 The game is really bad on (1) atm. 10:58:59 yes, (1) is the most important area for improvement imo 10:59:05 we can worry about zigrunners later :) 10:59:09 well that, and wrath grinding 10:59:24 alefury: I don't see the problem. If you can't put up with the wrath, just don't abandon the god. 10:59:30 (Btw, it is (1) that I need for <3 Lugonu <3) 10:59:42 or do it earlier 11:00:10 -!- dpeg is now known as dpeguno 11:00:50 duration should be based on a stepdown of total piety, and severity on max piety then 11:00:55 Yes, it's both ways: currently, you cannot abandon early on, for the wrath will crush you (with certain candidates); later on, switching is trivial but perhaps painful. (The painful part is okay, the trivial is not.) 11:01:07 galehar: aha -- progress! 11:01:09 galehar: i think the other way around might be better 11:01:50 dpeguno: IMO there should be some noticeable penalty for stuff like joining kiku, getting the first gift, and then abandoning 11:01:51 alefury: what? total piety means "total piety you've ever gained with the god" 11:02:04 galehar: yes 11:02:06 elliptic: yes, this is achieved by increasing severity for gifts. 11:02:26 gifts could just increase the total piety counter 11:02:28 I guess the correct way of handling this is to make gifts affect severity as well as piety gained, yeah 11:02:51 galehar: i think it would be better for lategame wrath to become increasingly extremely strong, but keep duration somewhat limited, than having it the other way around 11:02:55 we have gift counters already so this won't be a problem 11:03:24 elliptic: I agree. Abandoning Kikubaaqudgha after the book should be an option, but it should really different to doing it before the book. 11:03:27 extremely strong wrath sounds tricky to balance 11:03:52 galehar: I have some ideas, but that's case by case stuff. 11:03:53 killing players is fine imo, bothering them forever sucks 11:04:02 One of us. 11:05:16 -!- Exister has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:05:35 of course wrath power cant really go up endlessly, while duration can. but huge wrath duration would be fairly lame imo. 11:06:27 i mean, with wrath effects based on exp gained, you would have to progress through the game and kill things to get rid of wrath, and endure the wrath while doing so 11:07:11 alefury: sounds good to me. If your god carried you through five runes, there's no reason why she shouldn't harass you for another five runes. As long as the punishment is interesting, all is fine. 11:07:28 i disagree 11:08:25 ok -- what would your goal be? 11:08:33 imo more focused wrath would be more interesting. Having to deal with the god you abandoned should be a difficult and interesting challenge, not a penalty you are stuck with for the rest of your game 11:08:54 if it's too short and harsh, you'll have to keep a branch less dangerous to your character to vent the wrath. 11:09:10 alefury: but it depends on how you play. I agree with "wrath works down quickly if you play normally". 11:09:16 if it's long and manageable, you just have to finish the game with it 11:09:32 But I wouldn't make a guarantee about duration -- there are mummy grinders out there. 11:09:53 i think switching gods should be viable at all stages of the game, and often good 11:10:07 galehar has a good point, too: we can say that at some point, abandoning a god is like playing with a conduct -- could be a minor conduct. 11:10:33 i think this goal is much easier to reach with not super long wrath duration 11:11:24 much of crawl gameplay is about reducing risk, and keeping things as predictable as possible within the framework of a RNG-driven game 11:11:37 alefury: Do you see the point of anti-grinding? If there's a limit to duration, known to players, they'll do all kinds of things to get over that period without action. 11:11:57 If we use something like experience, it gets better, of course. 11:12:01 god wrath is inherently not predictable, so i think players shouldnt be stuck with it while getting multiple runes 11:12:41 You want to guarantee that one rune branch clears all wrath!? 11:12:48 well, as long as abyss is the way it is, people will always have a place to work off wrath with minor risk late in the game 11:12:51 no 11:13:09 multiple ~ 5, not 2 11:13:24 having to endure wrath for two hells or so would be fine imo 11:13:27 alefury: Do you think that time (turns) should have an effect on wrath (whether severity or duration)? 11:13:32 after all you dive through them 11:15:40 i think i would use a system like this: gaining exp increases the chance for wrath effects to occur, and might even directly reduce the wrath timer depending on god. Wrath effects reduce the chance for wrath effects to occur. The chance is in some interval, like 0-5% chance per turn 11:16:28 the number the chance is calculated from is uncapped, both at the top and bottom 11:16:51 might be -10, which would mean 0% wrath effects 11:16:54 dpeguno: time should simply have no effect. Only gaining XP, dealing with wrath effect, and maybe exploring. 11:17:03 might be 1000, which would mean the chance would be maxed for quite a while 11:17:09 galehar: I agree, I just wanted to see how alefury thinks about this. 11:17:25 principally okay, some notes: incoming xp should be capped below, or we get players trying go get wrath effects off rats. 11:17:44 hm, maybe the number should have an upper cap 11:18:03 otherwise you could earn a lot of exp quickly, then wait the accumulated wrath effects out in a safer place 11:18:32 the problem with using exp directly is that wrath directly after earning exp is not very interesting 11:18:49 could be tied to tension for some gods, too 11:19:29 someone proposed splitting hell effects into low and high tension ones, that might work for god wrath too (for some gods) 11:19:44 It really depends on the god... with O and T, it could be interesting to have them drop some short-lived minions among monsters of sufficient threat (value), and you only work off wrath if you kill the minions 11:19:53 summoning monsters is interesting at low tension, dispelling your buffs isnt, but can be very interesting when it happens in combat 11:20:53 !tell elliptic I have written a wiki page about fighting reform (just updated it). Interested in your feedback. https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:fighting_reform 11:20:54 galehar: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 11:20:58 have to go now 11:21:00 'later 11:21:05 see you 11:21:08 alefury: with my proposal, you have to actually do something to work off wrath (kill quickly, and not the guys that were there first); it is thematic and fits the flow (you're used to killing); and you cannot really scum it. 11:21:15 galehar: au revoir! 11:21:41 Napkin: Mind applying these two simple patches to Gretell (already tested with Sizzell)? http://dobrazupa.org/gretell-Ignore-br.exit-milestones.patch http://dobrazupa.org/gretell-Use-oplace-in-the-milestone-message-when-it-is-avail.patch 11:21:41 elliptic: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 11:21:51 galehar: will take a look 11:22:36 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:22:42 dpeguno: the crux with that is, how are the effects that allow you to work off wrath triggered? If triggering these effects can be scummed, we have gained nothing. 11:22:52 well, not much anyway 11:23:07 -!- Exister has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:23:27 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:21 oh, one last thing before I go: maybe we should implement the total piety counter right now, to gather some stats 11:24:33 alefury: you need to encounter monsters of sufficient worth for this. 11:24:34 could even go in 0.11 11:24:34 i think it is impossible to do wrath perfectly :( 11:24:44 galehar: sounds good 11:24:49 alefury: hehe, this is how I ended up with the page you see there :) 11:24:52 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:24:53 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 11:25:03 have it only show in endgame dumps 11:25:09 alefury: but it won't be so hard to make it much, much better than it is now 11:25:12 galehar: great idea! 11:25:27 galehar: is total piety gained actually a better counter to use than max piety attained? 11:25:37 elliptic: I think we need both 11:25:53 you reach max piety quite soon 11:25:58 I don't really see a point in disincentivizing players from gaining piety once they get all their abilities 11:26:31 elliptic: either total piety, or we use xp. We really need to distinguish between XL 10, ****** and XL 27, ******. 11:26:32 a lot of gods don't use up piety much at all 11:26:38 elliptic: can't i pull it? 11:26:39 elliptic: the most compelling argument for using total gained imo is that players who got much out of their god (reducing piety by powers or gifts and regaining it afterwards) get punished more harshly, which makes a lot of sense 11:26:40 * galehar leaves 11:27:01 btw, dobrazupa is a nice domain name ;) 11:27:12 does it mean something? 11:27:43 "good soup" 11:27:56 in polish 11:28:00 Napkin: I don't think |amethyst has put sizzell's changes up on a public repository yet 11:28:07 (at least also polish) 11:28:29 what is sizzell based on? 11:28:47 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:48 shouldn't he push to gretell's public repository maybe instead? 11:29:15 Sizzell is just Gretell with a couple minor changes I think, set up to work on CSZO 11:29:30 -!- inde has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:30:32 I guess using piety gained is okay so long as the counter doesn't increment when you are at piety 200 and do something that would gain piety 11:31:05 hmm.. based on a old version though.. or is sprint announces by purpose? 11:34:04 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:12 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:13 -!- Orionstein has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:34:23 added, committed, pushed 11:35:37 Makhleb summons remain loyal after abandonment (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6124) by twelwe 11:36:11 Napkin: Thanks :) about the sprint thing, I'm sort of confused whether having 'sprint' there actually does anything... there are no milestones of type 'sprint' 11:36:30 but maybe I'm missing something, and it certainly shouldn't hurt anything to have that there 11:36:38 it used to surpress the sprint announcements 11:37:28 remember the drama when they were announced in the very beginning? :D 11:38:32 hm, well, it doesn't seem to suppress sprint milestones currently 11:38:47 qwqw (L1 HuBe) abandoned Trog. (D (Sprint)) 11:39:08 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:22 maybe someone removed the type because s/he thought it's enough to have it in a separate milestone file? 11:40:01 how do the statistic scripts know now to count the sprint games as normal games? 11:40:34 *not to count 11:42:09 well, the type field there is normally used for other stuff (it tells whether it was a unique kill or a branch entrance or a rune grab, etc) 11:43:01 I'm not sure exactly how the scripts handle it... they could use the fact that it is in a different file, or they could parse this "lv" flag 11:43:17 which seems to have stuff like 0.1-sprint.1 for sprint games for some reason 11:43:19 probably lv flag 11:43:43 yeah, Gretell at least uses the lv field 11:43:44 it doesn't know which milestone files belongs to what 11:43:49 in game_type($) 11:47:49 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:50:17 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:49 -!- Yen has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:57:47 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:11 i added two of the wrath problems we just discussed to the wiki page 11:59:52 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20120421074340]] 12:00:36 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:39 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:10 -!- |amethys1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:16 -!- Grunt_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:10 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:04:23 -!- Yig has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:06:06 -!- Tally has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:06:09 -!- Tally_ is now known as Tally 12:06:36 -!- urthmover has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:36 -!- minqmay has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:36 -!- Twinge_ has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:37 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:38 -!- |amethyst has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:38 -!- fernandotakai has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:39 -!- ibanix_ has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:39 -!- Grunt has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:39 -!- Vesto has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:40 -!- us17 has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:40 -!- ekix has quit [*.net *.split] 12:06:49 -!- us17_ is now known as us17 12:06:50 -!- us17 has quit [Changing host] 12:12:33 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 12:15:36 -!- elliott has quit [Changing host] 12:15:45 -!- elliott has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:20 -!- yogidabear has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:20:37 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:27:10 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:01 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:34 |amethys1: there are a currently a lot of instances on CSZO of people with very large idle times sitting at the character creation screen, often also playing a different version at the same time... is this a webtiles issue? 12:37:06 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:37:29 i hear hidden costs for skills were removed 12:37:36 who do i owe eternal gratitude to?? 12:37:43 elliott: galehar 12:37:49 galehar: you rock \o/ 12:37:58 elliptic: I think those are the ghost game things from webtiles 12:38:14 that nobody seems to know how to fix or something 12:38:45 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:46:44 -!- Lawman has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:46:44 -!- wjchen has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:05 -!- Plasmo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:06 -!- foruc has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:06 -!- Senri has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:30 -!- soupfly has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:30 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:55 -!- yogidabear has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:51:05 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:59:54 -!- daftfad has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:04:54 -!- Deathmic has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 13:08:45 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:09:36 galehar: the issue is, if range's radius is 5, the edge has 20% the rarity. If the radius is 1, the edge has 50% rarity. 13:16:33 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 13:17:42 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:51 -!- Guest42069 has quit [] 13:24:02 <|amethys1> elliptic: weird thing is, those processes are actually running 13:24:19 <|amethys1> elliptic: and they do appear to have been started from webtiles 13:25:01 -!- |amethys1 is now known as |amethyst 13:26:19 |amethyst: could it be that the automatic timeout doesn't work in character creation? 13:27:07 I can see people starting a game and then realizing immediately that they are in the wrong version and changing 13:28:00 i've started a cszo game now and will stay in the char creation 13:28:17 <|amethyst> elliptic: could be it; I have connection_timeout 600 and max_idle_time 5 * 3600 13:28:22 unless my ssh dies at some point 13:28:44 ChrisOelmueller: nice hugeterm 13:29:11 elliptic: totally intended to prevent people from watching this :P 13:29:37 <|amethyst> there are a few ghost games, though, such as EatsDungeonBats (shows up twice in webtiles, but only one process is running) 13:30:10 -!- Pagos has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:38:20 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:02 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:44:56 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:48:18 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:25 -!- rkd2 has quit [] 13:51:49 -!- wasd22 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:01 -!- freefall has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:47 -!- freefall has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:44 -!- Yig has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:10:39 -!- dptr1988 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:15:25 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:24 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24:05 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:34 so what actually is the point of steam dragons/draconians 14:25:16 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: link_108] 14:27:59 kilobyte: around? 14:29:08 Napkin: people are really upset about the losing of CDO's webtiles 14:29:15 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:18 they have games there they cannot finish 14:29:21 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=73846#p73846 14:29:54 I understand you don't want to put up with maintaining it anymore, but it would be nice to at least let them finish their game 14:30:01 or transfer them to another server 14:30:35 hehe@i feel like being cheated 14:32:40 well ok, started 14:33:37 Thanks! 14:33:43 !beer Napkin 14:33:51 !coffe Napkin 14:34:10 we'll try to set up another webtiles server in europe 14:34:15 I rather need proper drugs, so i don't feel/see the lag it causes ;) 14:34:22 maybe CSN should be publicised more? it's in US so it probably won't help those who have a lot of lag from being in Europe too much, but it doesn't seem to get played all that much and people don't seem to know about it 14:35:17 !weed Napkin 14:35:33 -!- Sacred has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:35:38 there is a post about it now, elliott 14:35:45 that usually helps a lot 14:36:56 this reminds me that sequell stopped updating its database with CSN games 14:37:23 I !told greensnark about it, but he hasn't been around since I noticed it 14:37:37 mail him, elliptic 14:37:53 Napkin: people are addicted to your server! 14:38:19 ja? nobody playing ;) 14:38:21 -!- dpeguno is now known as dpeg 14:38:31 Napkin: oh, they'll come in flocks :) 14:38:33 Was webtiles putting too much strain on the server? 14:38:34 Napkin: hm, someone has posted about CSN? 14:38:36 I thought it was just CSZO 14:38:45 oh, that's not the same? 14:38:48 true 14:38:52 i'm getting confused 14:38:57 CSN is a webtiles-only US server 14:39:12 could help balance the webtiles load from CSZO to reduce the overall lag 14:40:08 the "WebTiles" and "CSZO WebTiles" links under "Playing Online" should be merged 14:40:25 same with the big "Play WebTiles!" button 14:40:35 it might be better to come up with some way to add new servers with a single command 14:41:10 a page should be shown with names of servers, flags, versions, and a link 14:41:10 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:34 so we could rent a couple servers just for the tourney, and be fine even in case of a slashdotting 14:42:21 you mean "create" by add 14:42:34 well, |amethyst has been talking about documenting the installation of a new server 14:42:52 and unfortunately it's not that easy as a single command 14:43:11 a debian package has talked before would be great too 14:43:17 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:43:33 a server "created" is not enough 14:43:37 it needs to be added everywhere 14:43:53 Napkin: no, but it'll get better. You have been pioneering into the wild; other will civilise it :) 14:43:54 sequell, wordpress, scoring scripts 14:44:08 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:44:24 i think it requires a meta-server, which can be querried by all those things 14:44:27 documenting the process is the first step before industrializing it 14:44:30 yes 14:44:34 the installation alone is not the big problem 14:44:42 Napkin: installing and updating _is_ trivial. Integrating the scoring scripts is not. 14:45:01 that's what i said, yes 14:45:13 or at least it can be trivial ;) 14:45:19 -!- Dixbert is now known as Dixie 14:45:23 well updating sequell + scoring scripts is just a matter of adding a few lines... 14:45:43 not good enough, in my opinion 14:46:48 how is the status of CAO? 14:46:55 obviously it would be nice if they updated automatically but it's really a relatively tiny time expenditure 14:47:08 I say this as one of the main people to write these simple updates 14:47:53 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 14:47:59 who had the idea of adding webtiles links 4 times? :-O 14:48:04 anyways, g'night 14:48:21 Gute Nacht! 14:48:55 -!- Orionstein has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:49:18 so, sounds like a good time to announce that CDO is back 14:49:19 -!- Namey has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:49:30 -!- dg_ has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 14:49:31 and maybe put information about new servers in it 14:49:59 put a summary page behind _one_ webtiles link, galehar, please :) 14:50:40 I'm wondering, maybe we should also say that CDO hosting webtiles is temporary and we're looking into another hosting for webtiles in europe 14:51:40 is it possible to configure things so that games can only be continued, not new ones started? that could help ease a transition to CSZO or CSN or whatever 14:53:47 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:42 there is a plan maximum, too: migrating games 14:55:32 actually, it could be done by hand in cases like this 14:55:58 except for one problem: no common user accounts 14:56:52 solution: have people log in with their google account! 14:57:24 galehar is google's trojan horse! 14:58:07 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:00:16 how about asking for donations to finance a european server with webtiles? 15:00:25 that would be okay 15:00:34 perhaps Napkin would help out then :) 15:00:39 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:00:47 with what? 15:01:21 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:10 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:46 Updating his server. 15:07:02 well, I was under the impression that he already got a new server, but he wasn't motivated anymore to host crawl, or at least webtiles 15:07:56 so the idea would be to set up another server which would be run be me and whoever wants to help 15:09:43 oh 15:10:06 I'll donate, but it will be best to ask first. 15:11:12 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 15:12:25 ask Napkin? Or the players? 15:14:23 on the forum 15:14:43 not sure if we'll get qualified feedback from there (sorry for delay, still typing on that article) 15:14:50 -!- tJener has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:36 -!- tJener has quit [Changing host] 15:28:40 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:53 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 15:33:32 what's up? 15:34:05 We ponder how to get someone to host an European server. 15:34:20 galehar is up to it, but perhaps we should ask on the forum -- galehar is doing a lot already. 15:34:52 Napkin: you'll get a Kasten Bier for retirement :) 15:35:09 i said i'm not motivated to write automation scripts for a while already, which leads to versions not being updated, which is bad for crawl 15:35:23 wasn't aware of that, sorry 15:35:43 I am also officially a rentner. 15:36:05 well, it's been on my todo list to automate webtiles installation for almost a year and i still haven't done anything in that matter 15:36:34 Napkin: console was automated all the time? 15:36:40 also, webtiles lag is huge 15:37:07 yes, console is automated 15:37:19 apart from first install of stable versions 15:37:37 so you're fine with CDO running console in the future? 15:37:57 also, webtiles lag is huge - i'm getting annoyed to wait 30 seconds for the imap server on a quadcore with 2.8ghz to refresh the inbox 15:38:35 or typing lag here in this irrsi, running on CDO 15:38:48 yes, of course, dpeg 15:38:58 * dpeg had no idea the tilists are to blame. -- what a relief, too :) 15:39:10 i'd give webtiles another try, see if it runs better on the new server 15:39:26 galehar said you're about to get a new one. 15:39:44 but again, no time to automate the installaions.. hoping for |amethyst in this matter :) 15:39:58 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5449&p=73894#p73894 15:40:02 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 15:40:03 i have it already.. with uptime of 44 days.. and all i did was secure sshd ;) 15:40:05 Napkin: can you have a look? ^ 15:40:45 sorry, nto necessary, my bad 15:41:45 galehar put it almost right 15:41:47 elliptic: ping 15:41:55 ok 15:42:37 it's the lag of webtiles and the missing automation in updating versions, which makes me think that someone else should take over 15:43:01 no! long live our glorious nap king 15:43:12 Wensley: he's not dead, only tired :) 15:43:19 oh, a nap sounds like a great idea ;) 15:43:26 we need a nap prince 15:43:31 also, he keeps running console, so there's nothing to fear 15:43:33 or otherwise a nap heir 15:43:44 |amethyst is in the running. 15:43:47 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:55 the new server is a Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz with sata3 disks - curious how it will handle updated webtiles 15:45:15 Wensley: a nap heir is already in the making :) 15:46:10 -!- johnthebear has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:15 those disks do 160-190mb/s.. almost twice of what current CDO is able to do 15:46:30 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:50 Napkin: the bots will be twice as fast! 15:47:01 well, generally servers for games refuse to take more players when they are overloaded 15:47:10 leading to queues and all kinds of other hated things 15:47:32 kilobyte, have you looked into linux containers recently? have you heard if they restricted root access inside such a container finally? 15:47:39 elliott: about that boost-like static assert code: it breaks on assertions that involve elements of arrays, even const ones 15:47:40 implementing a queue might be a bit overkill, but it shouldnt be too hard to just check the load and reject new players when overloaded? 15:48:47 elliott: static const int foo[] = {1,2,3}; COMPILE_CHECK(foo[0]==1); -- it's apparently "not constant" 15:49:01 kilobyte: mmm 15:49:04 kilobyte: maybe it wants the constexpr thing 15:49:24 there's a weird way in which "const" isn't actually enough for something you want at compile time IIRC, though it happily escapes me exactly what 15:49:25 yeah, but that's not recognized outside of c++11 15:49:29 right 15:49:41 Napkin: lxc doesn't do isolation :( 15:49:56 Napkin: it's merely chroot on steroids 15:50:10 last time i tried, root inside the container remounted the real /var/ read-only... 15:50:26 *inside a container 15:50:43 Napkin: with own IP addresses, CPU/memory limits, etc, but root can trivially escape the container 15:50:52 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:50:55 what else to use, now that vserver is gone? i don't want to deal with disk images.. :( 15:51:21 unlike vserver or openvz which are secure (-ish) against hostile root 15:51:51 the vserver patch works fine, it's just not in Debian for semi-political reason 15:52:31 I upgraded one production server to it, even, and it works well for a month already 15:52:52 is there an automated patching mechanism nowadays? really don't want to get stuck on manually upgrading kernels all the time 15:52:57 *in debian 15:53:43 -!- Grunt_ is now known as Grunt 15:53:45 I manually patched 3.4, that repository I took userland tools from has precompiled 3.2 15:54:04 (ie, same kernels as in Debian, except for the patch) 15:55:47 elliott: even funnier, that array is _already_ declared constexpr (so static_assert() works), except for "#define constexpr const" when compiling in non-c++11 mode 15:56:01 nice 15:57:23 could #ifdef that compile check away, but sadly, that would gain us nothing compared to the current hack (where COMPILE_CHECK() has to be inside a function) 15:57:43 Wensley: pong 15:58:12 kilobyte: the problem is with warnings, right? 15:58:18 you could use #pragmas to silence the warnings in the assertion code 15:58:19 -!- idle_t has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:58:33 elliptic: changing text on the banners only takes a few minutes, but it would be easiest to wait until thursday as until then all I have is this netbook which runs inkscape rather poorly 15:58:43 is any virtualization included in the debian kernel nowadays? 15:59:11 elliptic: I don't remember having any specific complaints with the banners myself, but iirc people thought the sif banner was boring 15:59:22 Napkin: kvm, lxc. The former wastes memory, the latter is insecure. 15:59:44 Wensley: there's this new idea for Sif's. 15:59:51 "wastes" as in: free memory isn't shared, and neither are kernels 15:59:56 Wensley: sure, it isn't urgent... would be nice to have the banners all pretty for whenever the tourney is announced, but that's rather unlikely to be before this weekend anyway 16:00:21 Wensley: yes, there is a new Sif banner... this is why renaming a banner is needed :) 16:00:28 ah, what is it? 16:00:48 elliptic: and you're free to use seleniac for tourney scoring again, if you desire 16:01:45 Wensley: the basic idea with the Sif banner is to do branches on your first attempt... no leaving them until they are "complete" 16:02:06 -!- dptr1988_ is now known as dptr1988 16:02:12 -!- ZRN has quit [] 16:02:17 for tier 1, this just applies to Lair, and "complete" means entering Lair:8 16:02:37 cool 16:02:40 for tier 2, this applies to all the branches, and "complete" means entering the last level and getting the rune(s) if there is one 16:02:51 (and you have to win in tier 2) 16:03:24 tier 3 is the same as tier 2 except that "complete" also includes entering any subbranches (which themselves cannot be left until they are complete) 16:03:46 * dpeg will content himself with tier 1. 16:04:25 Wensley: also, cool, I'll probably want to take you up on the offer to use seleniac again 16:04:27 so you are forced to do slime if you get any lair runes for tier 3? 16:04:31 nice 16:05:45 you mean, there are people who break tier 1 except for perhaps having an early stash? 16:05:55 kilobyte: yes, there are :) 16:06:16 elliott: well, D is a branch too... so you actually have to enter Lair (and thus Slime) at some point before you can leave D 16:06:43 elliptic: oh, good point 16:07:01 -!- yogidabear_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:07:03 clearly needs a tier 4 that applies to portals (e.g. hell) too :p 16:07:20 Zot is a sub-branch of D 16:07:26 elliott: oh, I'm including hell and pan in this 16:07:48 kilobyte: yes, you can't leave Zot once you enter until you get the orb 16:07:50 elliptic: oh good 16:07:53 (for tier 2 and 3) 16:08:02 elliptic: "completing" pan defined as getting all the runes, presumably? 16:08:06 yes 16:08:13 or if you find a zig portal does that count as a subbranch :) 16:08:18 no :P 16:08:22 aww 16:08:34 also abyss doesn't count because you don't have control over when you enter there 16:08:56 and the theme of the banner is that Sif thinks you should be prepared 16:08:58 or something 16:09:22 very good flavour 16:09:39 sif muna, god of preparedness 16:09:54 that's why you get all the spells in the game, right? 16:10:11 -!- omnirizon_ has quit [Quit: bye bye] 16:10:21 alternative theme justification/title welcome :P 16:10:40 with Slime required, that's mostly the Courage banner from 0.10 16:11:10 elliptic: so it is OK to clear D fully and then go and do lair/orc, to avoid having to do rune branches and elf early? 16:11:13 for tier 3, I mean 16:11:16 kilobyte: well, you can delay doing lair and do as much D as possible first 16:11:21 right 16:11:27 you have the option of doing Tomb before Slime, but that's not a good idea 16:11:47 and mid-D tends to be much harder than Lair 16:12:14 Pursuit of Knowledge 16:12:30 kilobyte: yes, but if you enter lair you have to do all the lair branches 16:12:44 so you'd want to do more D instead, until you're ready for lair rune branches and slime, and /then/ go to lair 16:13:11 kilobyte: yes, doing V before L won't make much sense for most characters... but doing Orc+Elf (you don't actually need to fight the elf end vault) is a possibility too 16:13:18 which is hardly different from just going to Lair outright 16:13:22 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: Ukončuji] 16:13:47 elliptic: hmm right, Orc:4 shop loot may help 16:14:05 and 2.5 levels of floor loot in elf 16:14:53 you really just need to dive, right? 16:14:58 Badge might favor EE, who can get the Slime rune without fighting TRJ 16:15:13 oh wait, you need to get the rune in rune branches 16:15:17 icic 16:16:24 kilobyte: you are right that there is overlap between vow of courage III and tier 3 of this banner, but I think it is probably okay... you have more choices with this one 16:17:14 also, you are allowed to retrace your steps later... so you can go back and clear the elf vault once you feel ready when you are next in D 16:19:16 the main effects of the conduct in late game are things like not being able to get XP from zot before doing extended and not getting multiple tries at the hells 16:19:19 Tier 2 is interesting for a player of my level. 16:19:33 -!- KKCryptic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:20:13 elliptic: maybe tier 3 should require doing every br- oh, wait, it already does 16:20:38 (hmm, does it mandate blade-dipping? I guess so, it's a branch... :) ) 16:21:30 elliott: blade rune 16:21:45 I'm not actually requiring dipping into blade/temple in Tier 3 :P 16:21:56 maybe blade and elf should each have half a rune 16:22:09 learn add bad ideas 16:22:20 fractional runes is sort of an interesting idea 16:22:27 Wensley: good 16:22:36 you could require killing the king of blades (the currently unnamed single rare weapon) 16:22:39 maybe half a rune in the elf vault and half a rune in the crypt vault 16:22:55 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:23:04 kilobyte: king of blades could be a guaranteed fixedart weapon! 16:23:15 elliptic: elfrobin buff 16:24:58 Wensley: or perhaps a fixedrandart like faerie dragon 16:26:58 btw, if anyone has any suggestions for tourney rules changes, even minor things, now is your chance to tell them to me 16:27:16 -!- Yllodra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:27:18 -!- MPR| has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:27:20 since so far I just have miscellaneous banner tweaks and this one completely new banner 16:27:38 IMO put sword of cerebov in blade 16:27:50 elliptic: I have none. Perhaps some of the numbers (the parameters for species/backgrounds/gods stockmarket) could be improved, but I couldn't say. 16:28:09 dpeg: turns out item glyph/colour redefinitions are not so easy to implement. For example, corpses get or lose property tags depending on vampire satiation level (and thus rPois), etc. 16:29:52 kilobyte: ah 16:30:12 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:30:15 -!- RollieTG has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 16:31:35 it'd require recalculating full names for every visible item (including on screen but out of LOS) every turn 16:32:11 hmm, only the top item of a pile is visible, so there's an upper bound on that... 16:32:22 kilobyte: how long is the the section in your init file that sets up the unicode glyphs? 16:33:06 -!- Plasmo_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:33:24 dpeg: only a few entries, really 16:34:22 the horned glyph ("mercury") for Pan lords, Thai clouds, runic stone/crystal/metal walls 16:35:51 kilobyte: interesting... when I watch you, it always feels so...exotic :) 16:36:33 -!- bracc has quit [Quit: bracc] 16:36:34 Pie-in-the-sky idea: in tournaments, during the ascension run, you deal with 'ghosts' of winning tournament characters 16:36:42 -!- keszocze has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:33 hey, nice touch 16:39:43 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:41:29 dpeg: people are unlikely to have futhark glyphs installed 16:42:35 so. survey talk 16:43:34 * kilobyte is currently on vacation in Sweden, and I've been in a "viking shop" today that, among pendants and similar junk, had most walls full of t-shirts with hardly anything but runic texts. 16:43:39 Ragdoll: jpeg and I discussed it just yesterday 16:43:56 but no, I can't read them without looking every letter up 16:44:19 what are the odds 16:44:57 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:45:38 how long is the survey supposed to last? 16:48:29 till this tournament 16:48:51 (last time, we had replies rolling in for months, that's why we did it) 16:48:59 about 6 months, started about feb, so pretty close 16:49:44 yes 16:49:46 going to be quite a undertaking to gather all the open question answers 16:49:51 Ragdoll: 5000 replies 16:50:03 yes, that's exactly what I spoke about with jpeg 16:50:16 im readin 6200 here, including incomplete probably 16:50:23 many! 16:50:25 oh no wait, 5020 complete 16:51:17 apparantly the youngest crawl player is 11! 16:52:13 also who would have guessed so many more people play tiles and offline 16:52:22 I would. 16:52:28 5K answers... That means there's probably tens of thousands players worldwide... 16:52:49 for exciting simple question stats:https://crawl.develz.org/survey/statistics_user.php?sid=99834 16:53:13 galehar: yes, it boggles the mind 16:53:23 No median age? 16:53:26 ah, the long run was also to get more local-only players to fill in 16:53:45 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:51 dtsund: 2nd quartile 16:54:04 so much people from [Select your country] 16:54:07 derp 16:54:16 weve got ALL the age stats 16:54:29 even the hillarious ones like sum 16:55:00 nooodl: who would have guessed 16:55:00 -!- yxhuvud has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:55:24 people who click other, then dont pick a actual country 16:55:44 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:57:16 yesss I beat the average age 16:57:21 even better is 16:57:32 2 people clicked "other" then chose "united states" 16:58:06 3 people from antartica 16:58:20 will always have random noise like this 16:58:27 When dealing with numbers that small, I'll expect some liars. 16:58:44 maybe its true? i mean its a bit of a uninspired choice with the range of exciting options here 16:59:06 but probably not 16:59:36 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:59:39 dtsund: nothing to do with small numbers, imo. Always get some trash back. 16:59:54 do you really think there's someone out there being 99 and playing crawl? ;) 17:00:32 it depends, was that 99-year-old person also in antarctica? 17:01:00 and having no gender, yes, that's the one :) 17:01:21 The most important point is have more replies than the Nethack poll =) 17:01:40 haha 17:01:40 -!- Silurio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:02:00 So I called all my geriatric friends to take a break from antarctical vacation and fill the poll. 17:02:01 -!- blabber_ has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:18 all they have to do is start the game and they're a player 17:02:21 well, someone being 99 and playing roguelikes would probably be playing nethack anyway... 17:02:39 :) 17:02:44 letts see 17:02:44 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:03:22 firefox sure doesnt like me loading all survey answers on one page 17:03:31 -!- darksquall has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:03:54 dpeg: I spoke badly. I meant with as many respondents as there are, some liars will show up as small numbers in weird answers. 17:04:16 dtsund: yes 17:04:36 trying to be original or just trolling 17:06:06 anyway, if i got some time next wensday i might throw the stats through some programs for exciting graphs 17:07:15 just to play with it, since i have to do something like this only work-related later this year anyway 17:08:09 Ragdoll: Johanna will do the same -- don't double effor 17:08:09 t 17:08:18 Ragdoll: ok, I'll tell her 17:08:52 you can go do the real thing, just a quick messing about and showing some graph eyecandy if i can get some results 17:09:12 stealing our show :) 17:10:51 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 17:11:10 haha, dont worry about that 17:11:25 anyway, for now, goodnight. 17:12:02 nights! 17:12:24 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:12:26 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 17:12:55 -!- anubiscrapfoobis has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:02 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 17:17:08 dtsund: could you past your changelog once more, please? I forgot to copy the link yesterday. 17:19:35 one moment 17:19:59 https://raw.github.com/dtsund/crawl-light/cl-trunk/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt 17:20:02 thx! 17:20:15 03kilobyte * rcdeb0bb5e547 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc rng.cc rng.h show.cc tilemcache.cc): Rename hash(), it conflicts with std::hash in C++11. 17:20:25 03kilobyte * r33e7c498ba82 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Allow "%"PRI to build in C++11 mode. 17:20:30 Alternately, https://github.com/dtsund/crawl-light/blob/cl-trunk/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt for non-raw. 17:21:57 -!- domi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22:26 C++11 will build now, except for tons of warnings about auto_ptr<> 17:23:13 sorry for uglifying the display of non-int integers :( 17:25:30 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:28 -!- Pthing has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:11 |amethyst: looks like there was a problem on co webtiles, there are a ton of ghost games. may have been caused by too many open files again; would you mind checking the lsof output for the webtiles process? (I don't have the access for that, I think) 17:30:04 -!- s951 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:50 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:32:05 03kilobyte * r71d1c1b1d5f9 10/crawl-ref/source/util/ (levcomp.lpp levcomp.ypp): Cut another case of std:: 17:32:06 03kilobyte * r2026c22a35a7 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Get rid of std:: in the rltile tool. 17:33:38 -!- Eji has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:33:39 -!- Poncheis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:06 03edlothiol * r5bb725201a06 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ (process_handler.py terminal.py ws_handler.py): Webtiles: Be a bit more resilient against errors while starting Crawl. 17:35:14 -!- Morphy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:39:03 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 17:40:21 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:42:28 -!- Oddtwang has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:43:06 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:18 <|amethyst> edlothiol: yeah, you're right 17:46:03 Webtiles server restarted. 17:46:25 Webtiles server stopped. 17:46:59 Webtiles server stopped. 17:47:17 <|amethyst> hrm 17:47:50 <|amethyst> edlothiol: it won't die ... 17:48:12 Webtiles server started. 17:48:28 now it did, didn't it? 17:48:40 oh, doing swamp reminds me; mangroves get wall shadows in tiles 17:48:42 <|amethyst> I killed it with -ABRT 17:48:51 oh, ok 17:48:51 <|amethyst> -TERM wasn't doing anything 17:49:06 may have something to do with all the open files 17:49:21 |amethyst: did you update it? 17:49:22 <|amethyst> probably, yes 17:49:26 <|amethyst> oh crap 17:49:27 -!- bracc has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:16 |amethyst: did you see anything suspicious in the open files? 17:50:22 <|amethyst> forgot to update trunk, so didn't have 5bb7252 17:50:30 -!- ToastyP has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:50:52 -!- Moanerette has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:50:58 <|amethyst> a whole bunch of https connections 17:51:08 <|amethyst> mostly "established" state 17:51:22 <|amethyst> seemed like rather more than actual users 17:51:43 hrm 17:51:50 -!- bracc has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:55 there were a lot of non-existent games on the list - could that be related? 17:52:10 <|amethyst> maybe 17:52:35 related, yes -- but they were caused by this problem, not the other way around 17:52:42 at least I think so 17:52:50 <|amethyst> we've been seeing a lot of cases where a user will have multiple versions running, one sitting at the character selection screen 17:53:00 -!- wheals_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:53:13 <|amethyst> maybe something's not happening when they navigate away from the page? 17:53:31 -!- domi_ has quit [Quit: さようなら] 17:53:35 <|amethyst> (there were also ghost processes, but those were probably due to the FD thing) 17:54:31 <|amethyst> I upped the max from 1024 to 4096, but if there is in fact and FD leak that really just means we'll have more data next time it runs out :) 17:55:04 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.12-a0-229-g5bb7252 (34) 17:55:07 this may actually be the same problem we had on CDO... HTTP connections just not getting closed if the client's connection drops 17:55:16 Webtiles server restarted. 17:55:41 <|amethyst> that would be consistent with what I'm seeing, yes 17:56:28 I patched tornado to close HTTP connections after some time of inactivity, but the patch didn't get merged upstream so far (I'd need to improve it a bit for that, and then forgot about it) 17:56:38 -!- seance has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:53 -!- bracc has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:57:55 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:58:18 <|amethyst> btw, the fishing shop can sell a demon trident on D:4 17:58:32 ot: is it possible to have undisclosed pages on the dev wiki? 17:58:44 |amethyst: that's okay -- what is the price? 17:58:59 i believe it's possible to make pages that only certain users can edit 17:59:04 <|amethyst> fairly cheap, let me check 17:59:17 evilmike: who would I approach for that? 17:59:25 |amethyst: cheap is not good 17:59:29 <|amethyst> dpeg: 236 gold 17:59:32 bug 17:59:47 <|amethyst> it was only +0,+1 17:59:49 is the base price of demon tridents so low? 18:00:03 * dpeg is reminded that he also flaked on the price reform :| 18:00:42 -!- Chozo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:00:51 dpeg: i dunno, its probably something only administrators can do. 18:01:05 <|amethyst> dpeg: it's the same value enhancement as a quick blade it seems 18:02:02 |amethyst: I think it's more a bug with prices than with custom shops. 18:02:10 evilmike: ok, thanks 18:02:31 (I might need a space for random gods soon. And I'd like comments, but surely not by everyone at this stage.) 18:02:36 <|amethyst> dpeg: +150 to the base value... and since mine had no brand and just one plus, there was nothing to multiply that by 18:02:46 yes, bad formula 18:03:16 <|amethyst> yeah, just increasing the number would make branded ones prohibitively expensive 18:03:25 dpeg: you want a page with restricted writing? and unrestricted reading? 18:03:43 I'll look into it tomorrow, have to sleep now 18:03:43 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:04:04 galehar: thank you, it's not urgent. 18:04:15 I'll approach you at another time of the day :) 18:04:23 alright 18:04:26 'night 18:04:29 * galehar sleeps 18:04:35 bonnuit 18:05:08 note that you can always just link to the original version of the page. people can edit pages, but the history is preserved 18:05:27 dpeg: i dont think thats necessary, not that many people use the dev wiki 18:06:31 -!- fungee has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:07:25 I'll try. 18:10:15 -!- Senjai|GW2 has quit [Changing host] 18:10:18 i dont think there's much of a point in keeping a page hidden, either. the vast majority of people who follow crawl development just look at the commit log occasionally. i never see wiki/mailinglist stuff discussed outside of irc 18:11:13 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:13:45 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:14:15 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 18:14:46 * dpeg follows the path of Nethack. Into the ivory tower I go! 18:16:32 * elliott starts betting pool on when DCSS 0.13 will come out 18:17:09 evilmike: The others still follow this silly OSS approach, so DCSS 0.13 will be out in one year. 18:17:51 you meant elliott probably 18:18:13 should do it like the gods: only one initial per head :) Time to sleep. 18:18:26 evilmike: welcome to the "elliptic experience" 18:18:53 you actually have the first 4 letters the same though 18:19:00 etab experience 18:23:03 -!- DarthCloakedGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:23:13 -!- daftfad has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:32 -!- RollieTG has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:36 -!- link_108 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:29:36 -!- Adeon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:37 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 18:31:10 by the way, does anyone remember why we didn't change the Exp apt system to be consistent with the other apts? 18:31:26 was never discussed, iirc 18:32:01 elliptic: and btw back: galehar was asking if any aptitude changes present themselves 18:32:02 it feels rather strange to have apts like "120" in the same table as a bunch of really small integers, and it means something different too 18:32:29 elliptic: I see no reason not to do it. 18:32:35 * elliott finds it odd too 18:32:41 100/110 -> +1, 120/130 -> 0, 140/150/160 -> -1 18:32:48 would be my suggestion 18:33:02 only three steps? 18:33:08 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:33:10 dpeg: we should bash bh to rename himself back to bmh 18:33:18 conflicts with bhaak... 18:33:20 160 could be -2 instead if we wanted 18:33:22 -!- scummos has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:33:28 (160 is Dg only) 18:33:54 it would make sense to have -2, since it would allow demigods to keep their distinction as being the slowest leveling 18:33:59 I guess that would make sense, yeah 18:34:00 100,110,120,130,140,150,160 is seven... could use anything like -3...+3 18:34:03 if that's something worth keeping, that is 18:34:05 I thought it was more of a nerf than it was 18:34:08 -!- fungee has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:14 dpeg: no, no, the whole point is to have it be consistent 18:34:21 with what? 18:34:25 with skill apts 18:34:37 logarithmic scale? 18:34:43 -3..+3 isn't consistent with -2..+2? 18:34:53 -!- Fangorn_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:35:20 +2 air magic apt means that it takes about 70% the xp to train as it would with +0 apt 18:35:40 ok 18:35:45 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:35:48 +2 Exp apt should mean that it takes about 70% the xp to reach a given XL as it would with +0 apt 18:35:49 etc 18:37:09 and 160 means what currently? 18:37:11 it's pretty much impossible to tell the difference between 100 and 110 and such in-game; I think the balance changes would be smaller than galehar's recent change probably (which effectively increased all spellcasting apts by about 0.5 (and decreased the other apts by a bit) 18:37:26 Zannick: currently 160 means that it takes 160% the xp 18:37:33 that's what i figured 18:37:34 which was consistent with the old apt system for skills 18:37:41 -!- ToastyP is now known as Guest19370 18:37:53 but that got changed without the exp display being changed as well, and I don't really understand why 18:37:55 elliptic: I agree ... that's why we did the coarser aptitudes int he first place. 18:38:15 so 100 is 77% if the base is 130 18:38:23 would 100 - 110,120 - 130,140,150 - 160 be an option? 18:38:24 and 160 is 123% 18:38:47 !apt exp 18:38:47 Exp: Ce: 140, DD: 130, DE: 140, Dg: 160*, Dr: 140, Dr[black]: 140, Dr[green]: 140, Dr[grey]: 140, Dr[mottled]: 140, Dr[pale]: 140, Dr[purple]: 140, Dr[red]: 140, Dr[white]: 140, Dr[yellow]: 140, Ds: 150, Fe: 140, Gh: 120, Ha: 100!, HE: 150, HO: 100!, Hu: 100!, Ko: 100!, Mf: 120, Mi: 130, Mu: 140, Na: 120, Og: 110, Op: 120, SE: 120, Sp: 130, Te: 130, Tr: 150, Vp: 150 18:38:47 (may also want to change some species' Exp afterwards, no matter how we slice it) 18:38:59 dpeg: oh, I think that's what I meant actually instead of what I suggested earlier 18:39:09 For example, Og might want to get 100. 18:39:16 nah, Og doesn't need another buff 18:39:23 :( 18:39:41 100 / 118 / 141 / 168 18:39:48 elliptic is just another halfling-lover! 18:39:50 is what the coarse apts look like 18:40:04 well this wouldn't affect Ha 18:40:09 I know! 18:40:17 death to halflings! 18:40:20 But sure, looks good. 18:40:30 halflings to hot dogs! 18:40:44 xom effect fr: halflings to hot dogs 18:40:54 Zannick: <3 18:41:00 Zannick: including the player! 18:41:00 hell hound (11h) | Spd: 15 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 6/13 | Dam: 13 | 05demonic, sense invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(20), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 147 | Sp: flame blast (3d10) | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 18:41:00 %??hell hound 18:41:41 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:41:56 with the coarser scale, where would races like vampire (150 apt) go? 141, I guess? 18:42:39 evilmike: yeah, 100 -> +1, 110/120 -> 0, 130/140/150 -> -1, 160 -> -2 18:43:13 elliptic: the 0 in this scale is kind of arbitrary though? 18:43:15 that scale looks fine to me, i doubt the difference will matter much 18:43:32 dpeg: right 18:43:45 putting 0 there makes sense, otherwise there'd be no positive exp apts at all 18:43:52 probably best with +,0,- system 18:44:44 shouldn't 100 be +0? 18:44:50 why? 18:44:52 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44:59 Halfling love 18:45:03 dunno :) but humans tend to be the basis 18:45:14 Those little pricks get off of seeing a +1 attached to their species. 18:45:40 humans have never been completely "flat", even when their aptitudes were straight 0's, there were hidden differences 18:45:47 elliott: we'll rewrite the species descriptions (necessary for some elf anyway) 18:45:55 and before that, most of their apts were 100 but they had some different ones too 18:46:08 03kilobyte * r02ef691263a4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (23 files): Use unique_ptr instead of auto_ptr (emulated for non-C++11). 18:46:13 so I think it's alright to give humans a +1 there 18:47:40 <|amethyst> kilobyte: wouldn't #define nullptr 0 be better? 18:48:23 <|amethyst> kilobyte: or did the weirdness with NULL git fixed some time ago? I'm remembering this from pre-C++03 days 18:48:51 ie, you nerf Og, DD, Mi, Sp, Te, buff Ds, HE, Tr, Vp 18:49:08 -!- pantaril has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:49:20 no problem with DD, Mi, Sp, Ds, HE, Tr, in my opinion 18:49:25 |amethyst: is there a case where NULL is worse than 0? It has a less ambiguous type. 18:49:29 no opinion on Og,Te, Vp 18:49:58 <|amethyst> kilobyte: NULL is still (void *)0, right? That means you can't use it as a function pointer 18:50:02 (I highlighted those with non-negligible changes) 18:50:02 <|amethyst> but can use 0 18:50:57 |amethyst: void* can still be implicitely cast to any pointer type 18:51:23 -!- DainHome has quit [Quit: Dain's default quit message] 18:51:53 <|amethyst> aha 18:53:31 oh, actually: 18:53:35 #if defined(__cplusplus) 18:53:35 #define NULL 0 18:53:35 #else 18:53:35 #define NULL ((void *)0) 18:53:35 #endif 18:53:39 -!- Oddtwang has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:46 <|amethyst> ah 18:57:53 beh, you were right: this is a difference between C and C++, in C++ there's an explicit cast needed 18:58:07 kilobyte: any objections to elliptic's proposal? I think it fits galehar's Spc/etc. change. 18:58:40 so it needed to go with the worse choice, which can't be told apart from ints (until C++11, that is) 18:58:49 -!- erisdiscordia has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:00:02 dpeg: I have all species on the nerf list already done (towards greatplayers) but not all on the buff list yet, so I'm fine with the change :p 19:00:05 (jk) 19:00:38 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I like how nullptr_t is defined in the standard :) 19:00:49 <|amethyst> namespace std { typedef decltype(nullptr) nullptr_t; } 19:02:10 Og can survive a nerf, Vp kind of suck so can survive a buff, not sure about Te 19:02:42 tengus are pretty good once you get them going... they have a tough early game though 19:03:04 buffing tr seems a bit odd, possibly? 19:03:20 one way to compensate could be to give them their flight power slightly earlier (like 1 level), but I dont know if that's really needed 19:03:23 these aren't really huge buffs/nerfs anyway 19:03:32 -!- _dd has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:04:49 It's also possible to shift a species one space. 19:04:56 and what elliptic says 19:05:10 elliptic: seems like it's good to go 19:05:30 yes, moving Te to 0 apt could be reasonable 19:05:40 so it would be a slight buff instead of a slight nerf 19:06:08 exp apt is most important early on, and Te really kind of suck early, so that sounds pretty good 19:06:16 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:06:31 the most important bit is getting more MP, I think 19:06:36 it's HP 19:06:44 for Te? they have none anyway 19:06:56 yeah but faster leveling early on makes a big difference or HP 19:06:58 for HP 19:07:15 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: link_108] 19:07:33 good night 19:07:35 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:07:46 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Nacht!] 19:08:07 -!- Guest19370 is now known as ToastyP_ 19:12:20 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12:42 Wait a second, why are Deep Elves only +3 to spellcasting now? 19:13:15 nerfed to oblivion 19:13:41 because the old aptitudes lied 19:14:17 what 19:14:19 a couple of skills had hidden costs/penalties, those are gone. this means some rebalancing but its probably not going to matter. read the commit message 19:14:29 oh 19:14:40 for recent changes, you should always read the commit message and then ask for clarification here 19:14:44 (if it's needed) 19:14:46 ok 19:16:20 -!- Fangorn_ has quit [Quit: Fangorn_] 19:16:43 -!- delior has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:32 -!- PollyEsther has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:20:22 <|amethyst> Lightli: also, you can do things like 19:20:25 <|amethyst> %git :/aptitude 19:20:26 galehar * 0.12-a0-220-gcb5881f: Remove the hidden special cost of some skills, adjust aptitudes. (11 hours ago, 2 files, 131+ 147-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/cb5881f43b3e 19:20:47 <|amethyst> to search for the last commit with "aptitude" in its commit message 19:21:23 %git :/orb mimic 19:22:24 Zannick * 0.11-a0-1047-g50b6ab6: Introduce shrieking orb mimics. (5 months ago, 4 files, 58+ 32-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/50b6ab6ade50 19:22:24 <|amethyst> oh, hm 19:22:24 -!- delior has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:24 -!- PollyEsther has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:24 how slow is this search? 19:22:24 <|amethyst> I bet I didn't allow space :) 19:22:24 heh 19:22:24 %git :/mimic 19:22:26 galehar * 0.12-a0-191-g00c7eff: Fix some tile issues with door mimics in gates (#6061). (4 days ago, 5 files, 17+ 25-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/00c7eff1ee01 19:22:28 <|amethyst> hm, no, spaces should be fine 19:22:30 <|amethyst> aha 19:22:41 a long time, then 19:22:49 and that was only 5 months ago! :P 19:22:50 <|amethyst> weird... Chei wasn't even in the middle of an update 19:23:03 <|amethyst> but, yeah, it does have to search the commits 19:23:21 clearly you should build an index 19:23:44 <|amethyst> it shouldn't take that long though 19:23:56 would you like to run it again and see? :P 19:24:10 <|amethyst> %git :/orb mimic 19:24:10 Zannick * 0.11-a0-1047-g50b6ab6: Introduce shrieking orb mimics. (5 months ago, 4 files, 58+ 32-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/50b6ab6ade50 19:24:15 haha 19:24:16 <|amethyst> that's more like it 19:24:20 %git :/jokeserver 19:24:28 dolorous * 0.6.0-a0-639-g78972e9: Apply jokeserver's patch in [2862815] to properly handle polymorphed submerged monsters. (2 years, 11 months ago, 1 file, 10+ 0-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/78972e9b4d6c 19:24:42 <|amethyst> %git :/Basic repository structure 19:24:44 nlanza * r99613e666e6e: Basic repository structure; a trunk, space for branches. (6 years ago, files, + -) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/99613e666e6e 19:24:44 * Zannick shrugs 19:25:18 -!- bracc has quit [Quit: bracc] 19:26:32 Wait, that means that trolls now have a spellcasting apt of -5 rather than a stealth apt of -5. 19:30:34 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:58 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 19:48:06 03elliptic * rdd2c8e4f7071 10/crawl-ref/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Use a +1 to -2 scale for Exp apt instead of 100 to 160. 19:48:07 03elliptic * r79f67ac23c43 10/crawl-ref/source/species.cc: Increase Tengu experience apt from -1 to 0. 19:50:00 how about swapping the air and earth apts for DE? 19:50:11 yes 19:50:18 we already have HE for an air-oriented elf 19:50:24 and DE should like earth 19:50:26 also hooray exp apt <3 19:52:30 elliptic: good idea on swapping those 19:52:30 evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:53:27 I think it was monqy's idea maybe 19:53:28 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:54:56 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:55:13 there also aren't many races with a good earth apt, compared to air. And they're all hybrid-y races 20:00:06 03elliptic * r206ba39bde79 10/crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Swap Earth and Air apts for Deep Elf. 20:00:28 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:01:22 minqmay is suggesting in ##crawl that the non-human races with +1 exp apt should be lowered to +0 20:01:32 and I sort of agree, at least for HO 20:01:49 currently HO is pretty clearly better than Hu 20:02:33 otoh it makes Mi even more clearly better than HO if you aren't going to cast spells 20:02:53 Isn't that kind of the point of Mi? 20:03:06 I'm ok with minotaurs being better for pure melee builds, hill orcs are supposed to be more versatile 20:03:09 if only mikee was still with us he could argue to buff mi instead 20:03:11 elliptic: oh wait are we talking about exp apts 20:03:16 I don't fucking care, in that case 20:03:29 and yeah hill orcs dont need a +1 exp apt 20:04:16 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:04:48 I guess we just nerfed Mi a little bit anyway with the earlier exp apt change 20:05:06 though this would be a larger change 20:05:10 the other +1 races (kobold and halfling) I'm fine with staying +1, since they have low HP too 20:05:28 yeah, they aren't directly comparable to Hu 20:05:46 maybe it's just me, but I find super-low HP characters unfun if I'm using melee at all, and fast leveling offsets that nicely 20:06:42 -!- inde2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:40 -!- Vesto_ is now known as Vesto 20:11:35 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:26 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 20:14:29 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:12 -!- ZebTM has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:17:00 -!- nooodl has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:17:55 I think I'd want to buff some other HO apt slightly if we bump their xp apt down 20:17:58 not sure which one though 20:18:01 !apt ho 20:18:02 HO: Air: -2, Armour: 1, Axes: 2!, Bows: -1, Charms: -1, Conj: 0, Xbows: -1, Dodge: -2, Earth: 0, Evo: 0, Exp: 100!, Fighting: 2, Fire: 1, Hexes: 0, HP: 1, Ice: -1, Inv: 2!, Long: 1, Maces: 1, MP: 0, Nec: 0, Poison: -1, Polearms: 1, Shields: 1, Short: 0, Slings: -1, Splcast: -2, Stab: 2, Staves: -1, Stealth: -2, Summ: 0, Throw: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -3, Traps: 0, Unarmed: 1! 20:18:37 poison? 20:18:58 stealth maybe? they have a good stab apt 20:19:44 but good stabbing / bad stealth is such a great combo 20:20:07 elliptic: axes? maybe treading on mi's territory a bit too much 20:20:16 some other weapon skill? M&F to +2 maybe? 20:20:26 * Grunt appears out of nowhere! 20:20:29 aaaaa 20:20:44 i suggest poison because at least in 4.1 there's comments everywhere indicating orcs like poison! 20:20:48 and they have -1 poison 20:21:07 !apt poison 20:21:08 Poison: Ce: -2, DD: -2, DE: 1, Dg: -1, Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Dr[green]: 2, Dr[grey]: 0, Dr[mottled]: 0, Dr[pale]: 0, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: 0, Dr[white]: 0, Dr[yellow]: 0, Ds: 0, Fe: -1, Gh: 0, Ha: -1, HE: -2, HO: -1, Hu: 0, Ko: 0, Mf: 1, Mi: -3*, Mu: -2, Na: 3!, Og: -3*, Op: 2, SE: 1, Sp: 0, Te: 0, Tr: -3*, Vp: -1 20:21:14 (the comments are around code that makes orcish stuff more likely to be poisoned &c) 20:21:26 monqy: i like your "design by 4.1 docs" philosophy 20:21:30 yes 20:21:31 it worked for de earth! 20:21:39 de earth was from dcss docs 20:21:48 yes but it's in 4.1 too 20:22:09 monqy: maybe ho needs a better apt in some non-long blade weapon skill, so the other schools can compete with the sword of power 20:22:12 also DE earth pretty clearly made sense because of the whole underground thing :P 20:27:31 -!- ajikeshi__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:51 give them fire 2? would that be too much of a buff? 20:29:29 how often do people even do spellcasting HOs? 20:29:42 fire and ice are sort of weird elements, in that only draconians get an apt above +1 20:29:49 most of their spell apts are sorta negative 20:29:59 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 20:30:20 ussdefiant: i love hofe 20:30:27 ussdefiant: melee ones are probably more popular, but its unfortunate if so. they make very good casters 20:30:39 !tell galehar I looked over the fighting reform page... my inclination about attributes is that just increasing the impact on accuracy/damage a bit would be enough. For anything accuracy-related, I think test_hit() itself could use looking at though. 20:30:39 elliptic: OK, I'll let galehar know. 20:31:18 could raise their staves apt "great help" 20:31:43 -2 SplCast alog 20:32:00 the negative spellcasting apt doesn't matter a whole lot 20:32:03 with the rest of their apts don't really scream anything other than Durable FE to me 20:32:09 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 20:32:23 maybe +1 earth? 20:32:34 !tell galehar For special effects, I think we should start with cleave and see how it goes... the other possibilites on that page don't look that good to me and I think we should be able to do better, and there's no real hurry anyway 20:32:35 elliptic: OK, I'll let galehar know. 20:32:36 +1 earth across the board imo 20:33:08 evilmike: +2 fire on them encroaches too much on lava orcs :P 20:33:26 elliptic: can always change it back when/if lava orcs go in 20:33:59 -!- Roarke has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:34:07 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:34:36 hello! i have a quick question. which rings actually have effects when worn by monsters. i was gonna make a vault for shoals/lair/wherever with various octopodes in professions and figured i might as well (ab)use the new ringhaving functionality 20:35:00 also if this is a bad time i can come back later 20:35:13 I don't think monsters ever wear rings. 20:35:27 dtsund: they do as of 0.11 20:35:27 They do as of 0.11 20:35:28 Unless that changed while I wasn't looking... 20:35:28 nah, grunt added a thing recently where they use jewellery now 20:35:31 This vault must have an Octopode wearing the Rings Of The Octopode Kings 20:35:39 if the had +2 fire, they'd be the only race (not counting red dracs) that would actually be good at fire magic 20:35:44 !apt fire 20:35:45 Fire: Ce: -1, DD: -1, DE: 1, Dg: -1, Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Dr[mottled]: 1, Dr[pale]: 1, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: 2!, Dr[white]: -2, Dr[yellow]: 0, Ds: -1, Fe: -1, Gh: -2, Ha: 0, HE: 0, HO: 1, Hu: 0, Ko: 0, Mf: -3*, Mi: -3*, Mu: -2, Na: 0, Og: -3*, Op: 0, SE: 1, Sp: -2, Te: 1, Tr: -3*, Vp: -2 20:35:57 (I'm counting +1 as "above average" here) 20:36:34 I guess only DE,SE,Te even have positive apts 20:36:53 ice is also a weird element (only white drac has +2, everyone else is +1 or worse) 20:36:57 !apt ice 20:36:58 Ice: Ce: -1, DD: -1, DE: 1, Dg: -1, Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Dr[mottled]: 0, Dr[pale]: 0, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: -2, Dr[white]: 2!, Dr[yellow]: 0, Ds: -1, Fe: -2, Gh: 1, Ha: 0, HE: 0, HO: -1, Hu: 0, Ko: 0, Mf: 1, Mi: -3*, Mu: -2, Na: 0, Og: -3*, Op: 0, SE: 1, Sp: -2, Te: -1, Tr: -3*, Vp: 0 20:37:40 we can give +2 ice to the ice orcs 20:37:51 nicolae-: I can't think of any jewellery that specifically *doesn't* have an effect for monsters, except for -CAST (but they won't use items that have this, so it's irrelevant) 20:38:04 amulet of faith? 20:38:07 the main restriction to keep in mind is, monsters only have one slot for jewellery 20:38:20 elliott: well, player-specific stuff doesn't count 20:38:20 nicolae-: mist orcs, you mean 20:38:26 evilmike: right 20:38:33 Wizardry, too, I'd guess. Though it not having an effect should be fairly obvious 20:38:41 Since they can't fail to cast in the first place 20:38:49 !won * be cv=0.10 20:38:54 * (be cv=0.10) has won 148 times in 16880 games (0.88%): 53xMiBe 12xKoBe 12xOgBe 9xDsBe 9xMfBe 9xNaBe 8xHaBe 7xHOBe 5xDrBe 5xSpBe 4xDDBe 3xCeBe 3xTeBe 2xGhBe 2xHuBe 2xTrBe 1xFeBe 1xHEBe 1xMuBe 20:38:56 i thought wizardry for monsters increased their effective HD for spellcasting 20:39:00 It does? 20:39:06 I doubt that 20:39:12 !won * fi cv=0.10 20:39:12 that effect would be more suitable for enchancers 20:39:14 * (fi cv=0.10) has won 158 times in 22976 games (0.69%): 110xMiFi 16xHOFi 10xDsFi 5xDDFi 5xNaFi 3xCeFi 2xGhFi 2xTeFi 1xHuFi 1xMuFi 1xOgFi 1xSpFi 1xTrFi 20:39:28 i could totally be wrong, of course 20:39:30 -!- RollieTG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:35 Wow, minotaurs are even more dominant than I expected 20:39:53 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:40:08 !won * gl cv=0.10 20:40:10 * (gl cv=0.10) has won 84 times in 7772 games (1.08%): 36xMiGl 14xMfGl 7xHOGl 7xNaGl 4xCeGl 3xGhGl 3xHEGl 3xTeGl 2xHaGl 2xOpGl 1xSpGl 1xTrGl 1xVpGl 20:40:12 !won * fi cv=0.9 20:40:12 Could we give Chei some kind of contamination reduction? 20:40:14 * (fi cv=0.9) has won 76 times in 21870 games (0.35%): 53xMDFi 6xMiFi 5xHOFi 2xDsFi 2xHuFi 2xMuFi 1xCeFi 1xDDFi 1xGhFi 1xHEFi 1xOgFi 1xTrFi 20:40:37 !won * be cv=0.9 20:40:38 * (be cv=0.9) has won 76 times in 14938 games (0.51%): 18xKoBe 13xMiBe 12xMDBe 7xHOBe 7xHaBe 3xDDBe 3xOgBe 2xDsBe 2xFeBe 2xMfBe 2xTrBe 1xGhBe 1xKeBe 1xMuBe 1xSpBe 1xVpBe 20:41:08 heh, KoBe. That was such a weird "flavour of the month" combo 20:41:09 partly these numbers just reflect what people recommend as standard combos 20:41:24 why is it weird, i thought KoBe was a popular choice 20:41:29 well, it's understandable that minotaurs are so massively popular now 20:41:30 still that 110xMiFi worries me a bit 20:41:32 Yes, I understand that, but I didn't think it was by quite so much 20:41:44 you get all the old minotaur players and all the old mountain dwarf players using the same race now 20:42:00 evilmike: yeah, though there weren't that many Mi players as you can see 20:42:19 the winrate is also up a ton 20:42:28 good point 20:42:38 I guess I didn't remove quits/leaves but I doubt it matters that much 20:42:43 since sebi doesn't play these combos :P 20:43:02 !lg * dewn / won 20:43:03 58069 games for * (dewn): N=5/58069 (0.01%) 20:43:27 I would really prefer to see two "pure-melee" style races in crawl, if weapon styles all go in. Both would be weaker, and more specialized, than current minotaurs 20:43:30 !lg * teae / won 20:43:31 3060 games for * (teae): N=17/3060 (0.56%) 20:43:38 this seems preferable to having one super-good, catchall melee race like we have now 20:44:05 I mean, HO is very good also... just not as good 20:44:16 Trolls? 20:44:27 I liked HO better when it was Exp 80 20:44:39 actually mikee_ claims that HOBe is better than MiBe currently 20:44:53 Due to the exp apt, I take it? 20:44:55 yeah 20:45:01 HO can also eat more 20:45:06 and have helmets 20:45:15 Well, the horn do do something, you know 20:45:30 And you can still wear hats, which are virtually as good 20:45:56 !won * mibe|mifi|migl !quit !leaving cv=0.10 20:45:57 * (mibe|mifi|migl !quit !leaving !quit !leaving cv=0.10) has won 199 times in 16365 games (1.22%): 110xMiFi 53xMiBe 36xMiGl 20:46:06 !won * hobe|hofi|hogl !quit !leaving cv=0.10 20:46:08 * (hobe|hofi|hogl !quit !leaving !quit !leaving cv=0.10) has won 30 times in 2590 games (1.16%): 16xHOFi 7xHOBe 7xHOGl 20:46:24 So they're pretty close 20:46:32 maybe it's worth mentioning, a while ago Minotaur Fighters (who used lajatangs for some reason) were a popular combo on the SA forums 20:46:38 people just don't play HO nearly as much 20:46:55 i think the idea was to find a lajatang of speed 20:46:58 Yeah, I can't personally see choosing a HO over a Mi if I was just planning a spell-less 3 runer 20:47:03 !won * HoPR cv=0.10 20:47:04 * (HoPR cv=0.10) has won 17 times in 2876 games (0.59%): 17xHOPr 20:47:10 and by popular I mean, every page in that thread had several posts about lajatang-using minotaur fighters 20:47:17 (alright, some of them were berserkers too) 20:47:17 Haha 20:47:40 also Monks of Oka, i think? 20:47:42 evilmike: surely some minotaur priests? 20:47:52 elliptic: not really! 20:48:01 I think a couple people did monks of okawaru though 20:48:01 or gladiators to start with a qstaff? 20:48:16 elliptic: these people weren't smart enough to realize gladiators are a better choice than fighter 20:49:07 it was really, really odd. There was even a word for these characters, "lajataur" (fun fact: I did a search to see where this term originated. It was a typo of lajatang, nothing more) 20:49:33 if only every typo could spawn a playstyle 20:49:34 I wonder about giving HO +3 axes 20:49:39 -!- blmarket has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:50 hey, that was my suggestion :p 20:50:12 Well, I expect that would make the split between HO and Mi melee combos more even 20:50:14 it sounds like it could make hobe clearly better than mibe rather than the other way around or something but maybe it isn't significant enough 20:50:15 In terms of people using them 20:50:25 i think it was a fad for the fastest weapon that could do highish damage 20:50:51 I guess if you're lowering the exp apt it makes sense though 20:51:01 but it might be nice to use that opportunity to make them less similar to mi rather than more? 20:51:12 How is that more similar? 20:51:16 I think it might be nice to have one race focused on axes/maces, and one focused on polearms/long blades/staves 20:51:28 HO with +3 axes is basically better offense and worse defense than a minotaur 20:51:37 DracoOmega: mm 20:51:56 And that sort of seems like the kind of choice that might make useage more even 20:51:59 more similar in terms of the weapon type most people will choose, I meant, although Mi has the same M&F apt as Axes apt so it's more just convention and berserkers I guess 20:52:28 Also, executioner's axes are better than great maces, by max skill 20:52:37 right 20:52:40 Hence if you're planning to push for that anyway, axes are a more obvious choice 20:53:37 Something about maces or axes themselves would probably need to change for the balance of who picks what to shift. I doubt apt alone would do it 20:54:14 yes there are planned changes 20:54:16 axes will probably get some sort of cleave ability at some point, at least as an experiment 20:54:18 Yeah, I've read 20:54:47 so anyone -- Chei. Boosted decontamination rate? 20:55:02 That doesn't seem like it would help much 20:55:04 evilmike: do you think that it would make more sense for HO to get axes/maces or for Mi? 20:55:17 The most common source of contamination is something you're not even using under Chei anyway 20:55:25 are soruces of contamination from non-Chei hated things significant? 20:55:28 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:32 elliptic: my thought is hill orcs would be the axes/maces guys, and minotaurs would get the other stuff 20:55:45 Well, the most common source of moderate player glow is almost certainly haste 20:55:56 That might be a nice ability in Light, since contamination is more prevalent there 20:55:59 Invis is similar, but much more narrow in usage 20:56:07 But probably not as a Chei thing. 20:56:43 evilmike: yeah... if that can be used as a reason to give fewer polearms to orcs then that's probably good, too 20:57:27 would monsters cleave? cleaving monsters being effective against summoners (sort of like hydras but different) might be neat! 20:57:36 How about rMut instead? Chei just... sucks so hard 20:57:47 -!- Keratin has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:57:59 Well, other issues aside, that's stepping on Zin 20:58:06 Chei is fine as is IMO 20:58:09 adding misc. benefits on to make chei better seems a bit bleurgh 20:58:11 bh: chei isn't that horrible, really 20:58:32 maybe it would be good to decrease the stat boosts and replace them with something else at some point, but I don't think it is urgent 20:58:32 ability to make floors sticky/movement delaying? (If that's even possible in current code) 20:58:50 ussdefiant: Leda's Liquefaction 20:58:54 leda's 20:58:59 Well, except that's not entirely how it works now 20:59:06 as Chei ability, i mean 20:59:07 that's not at all how it works now 20:59:11 ussdefiant: chei has an ability to make monsters come to you quickly, I'm not sure giving the reverse is a good idea 20:59:28 doesn't bend time slow monsters next to you already 20:59:34 Yes 20:59:48 -!- dptr1988 has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:00:00 -!- kingbuddyboy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:00:09 -!- fooobaar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:03 evilmike: anyway, what do you think of giving HO 0 exp apt and +3 axes? it would be a step towards apt differentiation to have one weapon type where HO > Mi 21:02:44 elliptic: it's a good start. I think eventually it should go even further though, with minotaurs losing apts in some weapons (they can still be positive though) 21:03:16 yeah, moving Mi down to +1 axes sometime might be good too 21:03:20 -!- ajikeshi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:03:28 with +3 axes and (possibly) cleaving, this will probably mean that every hill orc uses axes, at least for the next few months :P 21:03:31 ??apt 21:03:32 aptitude[1/3]: A number from -5 to 5 reflecting your character's ability with a specific skill; higher is better. An aptitude of n means the race takes 2^(-n/4) times as much exp to advance as a human. Press ?% in game to see the big table of races and aptitudes. An aptitude of -1 or better is good, -2 is manageable even as your main skill, -3 is quite bad. 21:05:31 evilmike: Not if the axes are made weaker than the other types; taking advantage of cleaving requires fighting in the open 21:06:12 dtsund: well, making them weaker will mean in the long term, people will realize other weapons are good too. But I think for the first while, people will go crazy over axes 21:06:14 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:40 especially newer players who prefer fighting in the open. I don't suspect this will be a bad thing, it's just something I predict will happen 21:07:46 Axes may already probably the most popular weapon type in general 21:07:47 also axes are cooler 21:08:20 by the way, is there anyone who can fix the builds on this page: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ ? 21:08:37 it stopped updating weeks ago, they are all 0.11-a still 21:09:11 the highest damage weapon is an axe, too, which is probably part of it 21:09:30 Well, highest damage most people can wield 21:09:31 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:09:33 Well, that is currently the primary reason, I'm sure 21:09:47 !lm * mifi|migl|mibe won type=rune urune=1 cv=0.10 s=sk 21:10:01 there is also berserkers 21:10:03 199 milestones for * (mifi|migl|mibe won type=rune urune=1 cv=0.10): 53x Fighting, 40x Axes, 34x Armour, 27x Shields, 14x Polearms, 14x Maces & Flails, 12x Long Blades, 4x Staves, Slings 21:10:10 !lm * hofi|hogl|hobe won type=rune urune=1 cv=0.10 s=sk 21:10:11 30 milestones for * (hofi|hogl|hobe won type=rune urune=1 cv=0.10): 11x Axes, 7x Fighting, 6x Armour, 2x Long Blades, Polearms, Maces & Flails, Staves, Shields 21:10:23 Yeah, so axes are already dramatically in the lead 21:10:34 well, a lot of the fighting ones are probably non-axes 21:10:52 Possible, I suppose 21:11:09 this sort of thing is unfortunately hard to query for with sequell 21:11:17 -!- chewymouse has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:30 !lm * mifi|migl|mibe won br.enter=lair cv=0.10 s=sk 21:11:57 199 milestones for * (mifi|migl|mibe won br.enter=lair cv=0.10): 39x Axes, 35x Armour, 27x Maces & Flails, 27x Fighting, 25x Polearms, 18x Shields, 18x Long Blades, 6x Staves, 2x Dodging, Bows, Slings 21:12:13 That's quite a lot closer. Surprisingly so 21:12:18 no crossbows :P 21:12:24 !lm * hofi|hogl|hobe won br.enter=lair cv=0.10 s=sk 21:12:27 30 milestones for * (hofi|hogl|hobe won br.enter=lair cv=0.10): 11x Axes, 4x Fighting, 4x Polearms, 3x Shields, 2x Armour, 2x Staves, 2x Maces & Flails, 2x Long Blades 21:12:36 unsurprising that HO was already using axes 21:12:45 since it was already their best apt 21:13:11 I doubt much will change, except that more people will choose HO over Mi 21:13:15 Which seems to be a good thing 21:13:22 anyway I'll go ahead and push this I guess 21:14:09 03elliptic * r942efd937129 10/crawl-ref/ (3 files in 2 dirs): HO apt changes: Exp +1 -> 0, Axes +2 -> +3. 21:15:39 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:21:41 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:23:36 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:03 hm, it doesn't look like monsters with rings of poison resistance don't actually gain poison resistance 21:31:26 looks like you're right 21:31:37 you should submit a bug report 21:32:00 i was about to, i was just checking git to see if it had been fixed, i'm playing a few trunks back 21:33:06 <|amethyst> oh, I see the bug 21:33:12 <|amethyst> if (jewellery != NON_ITEM && mitm[jewellery].base_type == OBJ_ARMOUR) 21:34:01 -!- remyroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:35 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:40 <|amethyst> the rN case is wrong too 21:34:42 <|amethyst> on it 21:35:03 okay, i was just about to check rN actually 21:35:18 <|amethyst> the others look fine 21:35:23 -!- Yig has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:35:34 do you still want me to report it 21:36:53 <|amethyst> won't hurt 21:37:39 okie doke 21:40:00 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:40:08 03|amethyst * rbb7f4694422a 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Fix monster rings of life protection/poison resistance. 21:40:08 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.11 * r9b8de49b5da1 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Fix monster rings of life protection/poison resistance. 21:40:22 * Grunt has a sense of inadequacy. <_< 21:40:28 I wonder how that went missed for so long. 21:40:29 <|amethyst> oops 21:40:35 <|amethyst> I missed something myself :) 21:41:10 maybe nobody was paying attention to what monsters were wearing 21:41:30 well, its very rare to get a monster wearing a ring of rPois or rN 21:41:54 only one thing actually spawns with jewellery at the moment, the rest has to pick it up off the floor 21:42:19 i only found it because i had an idea for a vault where the monsters spawn with jewellery 21:42:43 just keep in mind, jewllery is also loot 21:42:56 true 21:43:11 Fannar is special! :b 21:43:11 -!- ZebTM has quit [] 21:43:37 does fannar have a ring of ice or cold protection 21:43:43 It varies. 21:43:44 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: ThrashIRC v2.6 sic populo comunicated] 21:43:54 is there a relevant difference for monsters 21:44:02 oh, i guess ice would make him fire vulnerable right 21:44:03 He has a 2/3 chance of a ring of ice (and staff of freezing), and a 1/3 chance of a ring of protection from cold (and a staff of cold). 21:44:06 03|amethyst * r3aaf02ac4bc3 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Really fix rings of life protection, without crashing. 21:44:07 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.11 * ref6604ab9528 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Really fix rings of life protection, without crashing. 21:44:25 also, if you are giving monsters jewellery you should make it random (e.g. "any jewellery") 21:44:34 that way you dont need to worry about spoilers 21:45:03 unless there's a thematic reason to give them specific rings, of course. but in that case, you should use ident:type 21:45:58 yeah, i was going to make some renamed octopodes of various professions (octopode grappler, artificer, et al) and give them themed rings, i was gonna mention the ring in the redone descriptions 21:52:16 -!- Chozo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:45 -!- Tenaya has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:56:04 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:57:34 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 21:57:35 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:04:21 -!- zub_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:09:42 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:04 -!- pelotron has quit [Quit: ~Internet()] 22:13:11 -!- Fhqwhgads has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 22:17:51 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 22:22:16 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:22:53 octopodes <3 22:24:30 FR: remove jewelry 22:24:30 Wensley: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 22:24:52 nice minmay impression 22:25:21 evilmike: no here is my minqmay impression: 22:25:37 !tell wensley I had a dream that crawl removed jewelry 22:25:37 Wensley: OK, I'll let wensley know. 22:26:13 and I do have that dream, actually. I hate jewelry! 22:26:13 Wensley: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 22:26:17 oh a message 22:27:04 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28:32 Wensley: did you see the dungeon generator I made? 22:28:39 * bh sometimes has the memory of a goldfish 22:29:51 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:29:56 bh: I did not! 22:30:09 03dolorous * r64018f87cb61 10/crawl-ref/docs/template/apt-tmpl.txt: Fix aptitude template formatting. 22:30:18 autocomplete is stymied by the bh collision 22:30:21 Wensley: https://gist.github.com/3484549 22:30:45 it's checked in 22:35:31 bh: is this a dungeon generating quine? :P 22:35:54 the output, you oaf :-P 22:36:36 hehe 22:37:34 looks good, but I think it needs more bits of debris in the path to make interesting obstructions to deke around 22:41:00 it's just a proof of concept. It's a regular ol' circle distorted with perlin noise 22:43:09 -!- ToastyP_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 22:44:50 bh: is this for crawl? 22:45:18 Wensley: if someone does something with it, sure. The idea is to have a base map and then distort the coordinate system 22:45:35 it looks sort of cavey 22:45:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:46:09 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:51 ??cszo 22:46:51 cszo[1/4]: New server in Pennsylvania, US: crawl.s-z.org --- ssh port 22, username crawl, key at http://dobrazupa.org/cszo_key (openssh) http://dobrazupa.org/cszo_key.ppk (putty), or use the {CAO key} or the password "crawlingtotheusa" 22:49:21 yes, it does look cavey. We could use this technique to seamlessly blend cavey terrain into non-cavey. 22:49:26 Or make the abyss wiggle. 22:51:15 -!- Morphy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:55:13 -!- simmarine_ is now known as simmarine 22:56:05 what happens if you put a layout_roguey layout through that 22:56:25 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:31 -!- fooobaar has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:38 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 22:58:26 FR: Black Adder 22:58:34 elliott: no idea 22:59:49 as implemented it wouldn't work. layout_turbulent is evaluated at each point. I'd need to buffer layout_roguey and then sample from it 23:02:08 03|amethyst * r2ae1dff8f0bc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/cards.txt: Correct Warpwright description. 23:04:05 bh: it sounds like it could be interesting -- similar to what Lair does 23:04:07 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.11 * rbc3633513aaf 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/cards.txt: Correct Warpwright description. 23:08:46 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Quit: nipaa~] 23:09:10 -!- Sorbius has quit [Quit: If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you] 23:10:33 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:11:31 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:16:36 -!- thened has quit [Quit: thened] 23:24:14 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:31:14 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:33:02 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:35 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:38:47 -!- Yig has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:40:04 03|amethyst * r60d718a8b644 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Fix _autopickup_subtype() edge cases. 23:47:22 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:51:08 -!- Deathmic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:52:11 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:55:11 taxus (L9 DDHe) ASSERT(!constricting) in 'monster.cc' at line 137 failed. (D:6) 23:56:52 <|amethyst> !lm taxus crash -log 23:56:52 1. taxus, XL9 DDHe, T:9028 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/taxus/crash-taxus-20120828-045304.txt 23:57:51 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]