00:03:33 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3198-g6e5327a (33) 00:05:25 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:30 -!- hoovscz has quit [Client Quit] 00:14:12 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:52 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3198-g6e5327a 00:22:05 -!- Tally has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:14 -!- Tally_ is now known as Tally 00:42:55 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:46:26 -!- xnavy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:48:39 -!- xnavy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:49:29 alright -- who objects to an ediolon in a shoals vault? 00:53:45 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:57:18 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 01:01:29 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:02:14 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Quit: ~Internet()] 01:03:13 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:23 -!- Codrus has quit [Quit: o/] 01:11:37 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:12:30 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 01:24:21 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:34 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE] 01:32:25 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:24 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 01:39:07 <|amethyst> the shoals kraken just gave me three staves of cold 01:39:20 <|amethyst> the atoll kraken, that is 01:39:34 <|amethyst> cold is my highest magic skill 01:40:03 <|amethyst> is star_item supposed to respect acquirement weighting? 01:41:05 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:41:12 not that I'm aware. I think it just increases the item's level 01:41:43 like, it's an "out of depth" item 01:42:51 case ISPEC_GOOD: 01:42:51 level = 5 + level * 2; 01:49:17 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 01:49:18 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:58 <|amethyst> ah, just coincidence, then 01:55:46 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:55:49 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:56:53 -!- jbud has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:59:29 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 02:09:42 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:59 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 02:12:04 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:51 -!- Textmode has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:14:16 hm. I can't get these damn skeletal warriors to use crossbows. They just unwield them and punch me 02:14:32 do they have ammo? 02:14:45 ... no 02:14:46 and are they at least one tile away 02:14:49 oh ok :) 02:16:02 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:10 what's the syntax for giving them ammo? 02:16:23 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:25 I don't see an example in syntax.txt 02:18:25 skeletal warrior ; crossbow . bolt 02:19:30 this is definitely in syntax.txt. this is how you give monsters multiple items 02:19:55 evilmike: ah. I thought I needed to specify the number of bolts 02:20:17 I'd written `crossbow . 15 bolts` 02:20:27 nope. "bolt" will give a stack of bolts 02:20:53 the syntax for 15 bolts is "bolt q:15", but there is no point in doing this 02:23:11 @??sea snake zombie 02:23:12 sea snake zombie (07z) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 69-101 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 20 | 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(13), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 709 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 02:23:18 @??shark zombie 02:23:18 shark zombie (07Z) | Spd: 8 | HD: 7 | HP: 46-73 | AC/EV: 7/0 | Dam: 14, 7 | 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(9), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 123 | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 02:25:05 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:25:07 ??spectral warrior 02:25:07 phantasmal warrior[1/1]: phantasmal warriors don't bear mentioning 02:25:13 @?phantasmal warrior 02:25:14 phantasmal warrior (09W) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 34-62 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 1813(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(72), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 544. 02:25:18 @??skeletal warrior 02:25:19 skeletal warrior (10z) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 54-76 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Dam: 25 | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 816 | Sp: animate dead | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 02:33:12 problem with the vault is the tide comes in and the skeletal warriors get stranded. I thought it might be lame to make them levitate 02:36:39 can't you use the no_tide flag? 02:36:45 -!- tensorpudding_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:36:59 this is also in syntax.txt 02:37:13 evilmike: oh. I want tide :) 02:38:29 you can be selective about which squares the tide effects 02:38:46 use FHEIGHT on parts of it, set it to something high, then use no_tide and it should stay as dry land 02:39:04 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:20 if you dont want them to get stranded, set it to some mid-range value that still allows shallow water. i dont know what that would be, you'll have to experiment 02:39:51 I'll just lower the height around the door and raise it elsewhere 02:39:56 so the tide can slip in behind you 02:52:18 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:05 huh. Sirens and eidolons have a cute synergy 03:05:20 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 03:05:32 -!- Thann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:06:21 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: ThrashIRC v2.6 sic populo comunicated] 03:08:45 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:16:49 -!- Guest69988 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:19:53 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:22:30 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:29 -!- _dd has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:31:07 -!- Yen has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:36:17 -!- ac13 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:40:21 -!- _dd has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:45 -!- _dd is now known as Guest70296 03:40:57 -!- Guest70296 is now known as ddee 03:41:11 -!- ddee is now known as _dd_ 03:43:07 -!- Codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:54:43 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 03:56:01 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:56:38 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:46 -!- DracoOmega has quit [] 04:03:40 -!- Misder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:11:46 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:30 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:00 -!- RollieTG has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:14:32 -!- Textmode has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:26:49 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 04:31:02 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:36 -!- johnny0 has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:45:03 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:21 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:50:11 -!- freefall has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:42 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:44 -!- freefall has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:45 -!- evilmike has quit [] 04:59:56 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3198-g6e5327a 05:04:27 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:04:28 -!- kilobyte_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:10 -!- djinni_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:26 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:40 -!- ivan``_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:02 -!- ivan`` has quit [*.net *.split] 05:09:02 -!- djinni has quit [*.net *.split] 05:09:02 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 05:09:02 -!- jbenedetto has quit [*.net *.split] 05:13:28 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:10 -!- MorganL has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 05:22:30 -!- MPR has quit [Changing host] 05:25:40 -!- MPR| has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:34:10 Porost (L2 DEIE) (D:1) 05:54:10 -!- twelwe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:04:29 -!- Antonidas has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:10:57 -!- puke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:10:57 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:29 03edlothiol * re06401b10617 10/crawl-ref/source/ (29 files in 3 dirs): roctavian's hell portal tiles (#5633). 06:22:06 03edlothiol * reef6c5a92b07 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-icons.txt misc/icons/poison.png): ontoclasm's recoloured poison icon (#4527). 06:26:06 03edlothiol * rd16c68484b37 10/crawl-ref/source/ (52 files in 4 dirs): roctavian's spell projectiles (#5638). 06:30:05 03edlothiol * r8fa3fa7dfe59 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-misc.txt: Fix compilation. 06:30:56 -!- CrazyJew has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:33 -!- Pepe has quit [Quit: rebuttal] 06:36:06 03galehar * r1f45389fd736 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Revert "Cells with known traps are never greed inducing." 06:40:58 -!- Misder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:02:20 -!- elliott has joined ##crawl-dev 07:03:07 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:07 -!- Sab0t has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:19:10 -!- thened has quit [Quit: thened] 07:20:25 -!- _dd_ is now known as _dd 07:36:29 -!- RollieTG has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:56 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 08:14:24 -!- inde2 has quit [] 08:22:20 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:01 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:21 -!- SurpriseTRex_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:37:30 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:48:58 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:49:41 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:49:49 -!- SurpriseTRex_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:56:28 hmm, I swear I've had orient:(direction)/floating vaults in V before and there are some set to spawn in V, but I haven't seen any in a lot of V &^r 08:59:29 -!- Torsha has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:00:23 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:07 -!- rax_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:12 I've seen primary vaults before in V. 09:15:34 <_dd> grunt, i just finished the rest of the invocation tiles 09:15:42 _dd, you have great timing. :) 09:15:45 <_dd> all that's left now is the zotdef tiles 09:15:50 -!- MattyDub has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:16:17 <_dd> i also made a better green equipped item background tile that fits better with the new gui tiles 09:16:39 <_dd> oh that reminds me, i should do a matchin red one for cursed items... 09:16:52 I was going to ask about those, but it completely slipped my mind. 09:19:37 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:18 <_dd> ok i added the red version 09:22:18 tilesmakers = hero 09:23:57 vaultmakers = superheroes 09:24:01 sprintmakers = gods 09:25:34 devs are horrible godless eldritch monstrosities beyond comprehension with limitless power? 09:26:14 thus, devs = godmakers 09:26:17 devs are sanguine, supreme beings on the way to trancendence 09:27:01 <_dd> do i at least get to wear a cape? 09:27:25 _dd: a self-drawn cape even! 09:27:26 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 09:28:42 _dd, Renounce Religion? 09:28:48 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3203-g1f45389 (33) 09:28:54 <_dd> oh. 09:28:57 <_dd> yeah 09:29:16 <_dd> maybe something like the icon for religion crossed with red 09:31:41 Just write "God is dead" in the icon. 09:32:11 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:36:47 <_dd> maybe a portrait of nietzsche 09:37:18 :) 09:38:07 NOw that we have to mini-games, I should revive my old idea of "Twilight of the Idols" (Götterdämmerung) where you fight (after winning the game) with/against the gods for the orb. 09:38:08 <_dd> renounce religion done 09:38:23 *two mini-games 09:41:08 dpeg_: make it so that after you ascend from d:1 you find yourself in a tower that's X levels tall, where X is the number of implemented gods 09:41:52 Wensley: it should be an optional add-on like Defence and Sprint :) 09:43:47 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:45:35 make it so that after you ascend from D:1 you find yourself on four elemental planes, followed by the astral plane, whereupon you have to find an altar to your god and offer the orb of yendor 09:45:54 /kick elliott 09:46:32 -!- RollieTG has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 09:46:59 fr: orb mimics turn into cheap plastic imitations of the orb of zot when killed :) 09:50:23 <_dd> hey what kind of mushrooms does the zotdef mushroom ability create 09:50:49 cool song titles: Sculptor of Flesh, Celestial Deconstruction, To Rottendom 09:52:37 elliott: that sounds like my idea for a souvenir shop on zot:5, selling imitation orbs that give you fortunes when evoked 09:55:41 _dd: fungus, I believe 09:55:54 <_dd> ok thanks 09:56:30 HangedMan is correct. 09:56:52 -!- rax has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:07:36 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:02 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:17 03Grunt * ra71ade18b5ed 10/crawl-ref/source/feature.cc: Have detected altars and shop/portals show up again in console. 10:10:18 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:18 HangedMan: you can get floating vaults or vaults docked to the edge of the level in V (and any other branch), but they get placed after the rest of the level is built 10:10:31 I realized it was mostly because I was regenerating the V level with crypt after further testing 10:10:48 That would do it. 10:10:48 also because my vault is too huge and it will almost never place in V 10:11:08 What vault is this? 10:11:54 yeah, keep huge vaults in D or in branch ending 10:11:55 s 10:12:16 You could try making a smaller version of the vault to place in branches, if applicable. 10:12:21 * Grunt recalls grunt_deathspiral_* :) 10:12:28 http://pastebin.com/J0nEr1Xi 10:12:35 -!- rax_ is now known as rax 10:13:01 just a D and V vault, doesn't need to place in many other places 10:13:09 40x40? 10:13:25 yeah thats too big. you can still let it try to place in vaults but it will almost always fail 10:13:31 That's absurdly large, and you're going to have problems getting it placed anywhere other than D. 10:14:01 -!- violetj has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:02 * HangedMan shrugs 10:16:30 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 10:19:36 just so things are clear, "primary vault" doesn't mean "has an orient line". It means it gets placed before the rest of the level. The reason D is preferred is because it's more relaxed about having those 10:19:59 mmm 10:20:02 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:24:17 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:29 -!- dingir has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:37:02 -!- smeea has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:40:16 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:39 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:41:44 -!- tsohg_ is now known as tsohg 10:43:08 cool vault 10:44:35 -!- Adeon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:23 thank you 11:01:35 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:05:21 -!- Chozo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:27 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:11:57 -!- vev has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:13:12 so, is this giving a 1/5 chance of 4 shops instead of loot? 11:13:19 (just making sure I'm reading this right) 11:13:30 four shops instead of the |s 11:13:55 alright. in that case, "SHUFFLE: |D / |D / |D / |D / D|" is pretty weird 11:14:20 yeah, I ended up using "SUBST: | : |:4 D:1" instead 11:15:34 hmm.. probably shouldn't have allow_dup 11:15:56 just a testing thing 11:16:34 annoying to decide to see what a vault looks like in d:24 instead of d:19 and take a minute to realize it won't spawn the vault again 11:16:45 what do the C's become? Altars? 11:16:49 yup 11:17:25 just making sure. that's pretty rare to see (not that it's bad) 11:17:59 <_dd> would it be ok to make the "make water" tile be a guy taking a piss? 11:18:04 -!- MPR| has quit [Changing host] 11:18:23 I sometimes use C as an alternative for stone wall (for tiling purposes usually). once i forgot an important line and wound up making all the walls altars 11:19:06 the default glyphs are wonderfully silly sometimes 11:19:11 _dd: probably not, unless that command actually involves taking a piss :P 11:19:24 <_dd> but it's symbolic! 11:19:26 -!- MPR has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:19:39 <_dd> and how do you know it doesn't... 11:19:45 HangedMan: a lot of it is inherited from the angband and nethack syntax 11:19:54 ahhhh 11:19:57 I think we use x for stone walls because nethack does 11:20:06 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:07 <_dd> maybe the zot ability just makes you really thirsty... 11:20:16 and the rest of the wall types are mostly on the bottom row, since x is there, I guess 11:20:52 had always wondered what was up with cvb 11:23:09 -!- MPR| has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:23:43 -!- Chozo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:27:09 -!- andrewhl has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:27:34 _dd: my guess is because the stuff that comes out is water... I hope 11:27:59 <_dd> anyway the zotdef tiles are almost done... 11:28:03 <_dd> just a few more to go 11:31:52 _dd, cool. 11:32:36 I'll finish up the backend work for it when I get back home. :) 11:34:12 <_dd> does the sage skill basically just exchange attributes for skills? 11:35:09 evilmike: interesting, I was never aware of that 11:36:44 evilmike: also, galehar liked the five point plan for DS. So we have to start thinking abouth Augmentation (you) and Element Protection (I). :) 11:41:58 dpeg_: yeah, our des files are very nethacky (on the surface, anyway) 11:41:59 http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Des-file_format 11:42:39 fr orient:center, place thing by race 11:43:20 looks like I was wrong about them using 'x' though, maybe that part is unique to crawl 11:43:38 evilmike: given that we use open (to non-devs) des files for so many years by now, it is amazing how little the NH community does with it. 11:44:06 oh, we got X from angband, that's permarock in both games 11:45:34 i know of some interesting patches which add a lot of special levels to nethack, particularly gehennom 11:45:40 grunt probably knows more about this than i do 11:46:33 from what little I read over nethack spoilers I thought the majority of non-encompass-vaults were built like crawl's special rooms 11:47:07 nethack has much smaller levels, so things work differently. special levels tend to take up the whole map or a huge part of it 11:47:35 evilmike: yes, so do I. But players making lots of vaults somehow didn't catch on. Probably due to the abysmal development situation :( 11:47:53 You could make awesome tactical challenges for Nethack. 11:48:08 I think crawl also just makes it easier to edit them, even though it's a more complex format 11:48:14 it helps that crawl vaults are really just lua 11:48:29 Let's all bow to the green snark. 11:48:40 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:48:44 wow I didn't realise nethack had des stuff 11:48:59 it does 11:49:16 unlike ancient crawl! 11:49:27 (but ancient crawl's C++ maps used nethack's symbols anyway iirc) 11:49:36 http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Des-file_format 11:49:38 ancient crawl's maps file is scary 11:49:42 <|amethyst> X for permarock comes from angband I'd guess... perhaps 8/9 for OODs too 11:49:55 yeah the 890 thing seems like it's from angband 11:50:02 It is a good idea. 11:50:08 <|amethyst> # 8 - monster up to 40 levels OOD and treasure up to 20 levels OOD 11:50:13 <|amethyst> # 9 - monster up to 9 levels OOD and treasure up to 7 levels OOD 11:50:14 Should be used more often. I tend to forget it. 11:50:39 I guess it doesn't use 0 11:51:15 <|amethyst> it does have & and @ for simple OODs without treasure, and , for only-slightly-ood with treasure 11:51:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:51:52 evilmike: it is the worst thing about 4.1 11:51:59 (well, 4.1's code, at least) 11:52:54 if you are insane, I believe you can still make crawl maps by making each line like, map("xxx") 11:53:29 evilmike: this might be done in some scripts, like Enne's octagon levels? 11:54:09 almost everything in uniques.des uses that too 11:54:22 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: bonghitz] 11:54:46 there are reasons to use map(), but it's never used to build the entire map 11:54:55 I mean, in des files 11:55:19 is autoexplore meant to hang at "Do you want to sacrifice the items here?" if you press o on a sacrificable square 11:55:21 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Doomseeker End Of Line] 11:55:25 (is there an option to automatically respond yes) 11:55:35 at least it doesn't infiniloop now :p 11:55:53 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:56:26 <|amethyst> elliott: I don't know if an auto-sacrifice option would be a great idea ("oops") 11:56:45 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE] 11:56:56 that prompt is really annoying yeah 11:56:56 <|amethyst> you could macro o to po 11:57:02 |amethyst: well, I think some people lua it 11:57:04 i doubt the Y/N prompt is going to last long 11:57:25 it is bad for nemelex but for blood gods I suspect accidentally sacrificing hardly ever matters unless you are starving or something 11:57:37 thanks for the macro suggestion, I'll try that 11:57:41 well, it's just bad to have a y/n for every corpse on the level 11:58:07 <|amethyst> evilmike: what would the alternative be? same as 'no' now? 11:58:17 |amethyst: I'm playing TrHe so "y" is kind of a, what do the kids call it, "no-brainer" 11:58:48 have the y/n thing be an option (off by default) if it's really desired. By default it should just be 'no'. 11:59:07 <|amethyst> evilmike: there's the same issue when you're nearly at carrying capacity---every spot with an autopickup item gives you the prompt 11:59:29 evilmike: in-game switch? 11:59:31 yeah that's a nuisance, but a smaller one (because you can just drop a bunch of stuff) 11:59:32 <|amethyst> s/the prompt/a similar prompt/ 12:00:02 evilmike: also, you sneakily ignored my DS message, but I won't let that fly =) 12:00:04 or here's an alternative to the annoying y/n: you autotravel to the sacrificable thing. press o again will autosacrifice and resume autoexplore. 12:00:12 not for nemelex i suppose 12:01:09 dpeg_: I'll think of something but I'd need help coming up with the actual numbers to use, I'm very bad at that stuff 12:01:21 evilmike: ideas first, numbers second! 12:01:23 -!- ac13 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:01:31 a yes/no/prompt option might be good, yes 12:01:37 or alternative just a yes/no option (defaulting to no) 12:01:52 i'd prefer just marking items as undesirable for anything if moved on *during* explore and then you continued to hit 'o' 12:02:09 settable in-game could work, I would want some Lua magic to choose what to set it to based on god/skills 12:02:18 autosacrifice induced by a key as common to hit as O will only cause trouble (p is close enough to o if you really want that, also macros) 12:02:22 dpeg_: patches welcome 12:02:28 I think it is OK if pressing o carelessly can skip something saccable, after all it _always_ skipped something saccable beforehand 12:02:33 I just don't want the default in 0.11 to be adding a ton of y/n prompts for any god that takes sacrifices 12:02:38 yes 12:02:48 I honestly think it's easier to just autoexplore to corpses and hit p, than to autoexplore and hit y or n 12:02:48 ChrisOelmueller: well if I am with Ely and using unarmed combat then I want to sacrifice everything, say 12:03:06 but, an o -> po macro works even if it always doesn't sac, so 12:03:12 right, if you are that and below the piety threshold 12:03:19 most use cases are not as special as that 12:03:27 right 12:03:36 and nemelex autosacrifices might seriously screw up a game 12:03:47 ChrisOelmueller: people like autosac for blood gods too, though 12:03:58 and yes, obviously autosac would be really bad with nemelex 12:05:30 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:05:38 -!- tsohg_ is now known as tsohg 12:07:14 does a 'po' macro play nice with altars? I assume it does 12:07:35 all 'p' is used for is sacrificing and using altars (I think...), so that macro should be pretty safe to use 12:08:12 <|amethyst> it won't worship, but it will be annoying on altars 12:08:15 <|amethyst> also Jiyva 12:08:21 mhm 12:08:24 oh, right, jiyva 12:08:38 for consistency, that should probably be an invocation anyway 12:08:45 indeed 12:08:46 just like every other god power nowadays 12:08:52 <|amethyst> p to eat an item :) 12:09:03 bhaak: which Crawler in his/her/its sane mind --excludinger the Grunter-- would submit patches to Nethack? 12:10:12 <|amethyst> dpeg_: bhaak is a variant maintainer 12:10:25 dpeg_: if (s)he needs a sane mind, there are still lots of possible contributors :-) 12:10:41 <_dd> oh, the zotdef tiles are uploaded now 12:11:58 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:12:06 |amethyst: he knows ;-) 12:12:12 dpeg_: looking at nethack source is a good way to eliminate any annoyances at badness in crawl code 12:12:12 <|amethyst> yeah, I missed the context 12:15:51 evilmike: yeah, it tries to worship at altars but you can just say no 12:16:00 another problem is that it prays even if there are monsters around, sometimes I hit o by accident 12:16:19 bhaak: has there ever been a call out for vaults in Nethack? Could make parts of the community less zombiefied, I think. 12:16:21 well that's just a message 12:16:30 does nethack even support vaults? 12:16:33 I mean, non-special-level vaults 12:16:45 there are vault-like things, eg the oracle levell 12:16:47 (i.e. encompass vaults) 12:16:57 hmm, I thought the Oracle level was hardcoded, but maybe not 12:17:07 there are plenty of nethack levels where the "vault" is just part of it, and the rest is a maze or whatever 12:17:13 a ton of the gehennom ones do this 12:17:23 evilmike: yes, http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Des-file_format#MAZE-type_levels 12:17:25 repeated fr for orient: center 12:17:30 wouldn't really identify that with Crawl-style vaults though 12:17:41 HangedMan: why? orient: float does practically the same thing 12:17:47 but with more flexibility 12:17:50 * HangedMan shrugs 12:17:52 <_dd> Grunt, zot tiles are done 12:17:58 <|amethyst> I think less flexibility is the idea 12:18:16 <|amethyst> i.e. to make the vault the centerpiece of the level 12:18:27 well, you can do that with a very large floating vault 12:18:31 and it will basically go in the centre 12:18:49 maybe not dead-centre, but I don't see why you'd want that 12:20:34 * Grunt arrives back home. 12:20:45 hmm, maybe you could do something interesting with octagon levels or something 12:20:57 (tell it to place a smallish vault right in the middle of the octagon) 12:20:59 _dd, cool :) 12:21:04 but subvaults could accomplish that too 12:21:09 also forbidden_donuet 12:21:18 There's one thing I need to check on before adding them in to my changeset and pushing it, but that will be done soon. 12:21:20 and maybe cross? 12:21:46 <_dd> let me know if there's any changes or edits needed 12:21:51 <_dd> if any are too unclear or something 12:22:01 Yes, explicit coordinates would be useful at times (also for ziggurats). 12:22:09 dpeg_: over the years, there have been several level-packs. even some that could just be put into the game's directory without need of actual compilation (and thus getting actual play). the most popular was probably the heck2 set that made gehennom so much less boring. i even made some new levels for fort ludios that got some discussion on rgrn. but as usual, there you only get mostly talk 12:22:37 HangedMan: still, subvaults would be the way to go, probably. you can tell vaults to only be placed in specific layout *types*, but that's as far as you can go 12:22:43 bhaak: yes, I know. The point of allowing players to make stuff is to move beyond talk :) 12:22:49 mm 12:23:01 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:23:06 bhaak: actual (non-whole-level) vaults in unnethack would be cool 12:23:24 adom sort of does this 12:23:52 i dont think its vaults are all that different from nethack's ones, aside from being more random 12:23:54 elliott: paxed has done some for spork but they are still buggy and it's a bit hard to fit meaningful vaults into nethack's small levels 12:24:41 well, a room is an OK size for a small vault 12:24:48 adom just makes half the level the vault, and fills it with nasty stuff. They usually (always?) require digging 12:24:49 bhaak: I believe the crucial bit are interesting combinations of layout and monsters. It's not so much about loot (too much of that anyway in NH) and flavour. 12:24:53 especially ones that are just decorative features or placing a few monsters 12:25:21 bhaak: for successful sub-level vaults see oracle ;) 12:25:41 (admittedly, would not be a very interesting vault without extra code (arguably is not a very interesting vault with that extra code)) 12:26:07 brogue manages to have small vaults dispite having small levels. i dont really like that game's approach though 12:26:23 it does it by making the vaults very interactive. problem is there's only a few types, and the early ones get rather repetitive 12:26:46 the later ones can be cool though (boss fights) 12:26:48 I think 1.6.3/4 makes there be too many, personally 12:26:55 in general 12:26:56 brogue's vaults aren't really "vaults" per se, since they all have special mechanics behind them and are random in things like size 12:27:16 yeah. i just dont know what else to call them :P 12:27:22 I think brogue calls them "machines" and "vault" refers to something more specific, but I forget what 12:27:32 at least, the source calls them machines 12:27:38 those ones where it's a ton of rooms, each with their own key, are awful 12:27:44 the keys aren't colour coded or anything :P 12:27:56 evilmike: have you seen the ones where one of the vaults has a key *in it* 12:27:57 as one of the options 12:28:03 and it's a key to another vault on the same level 12:28:08 yeah. you can get huge chains of those 12:28:10 I think the point of the nested vaults is to exacerbate the food clock 12:28:11 they can end up nesting osmething like six deep, iirc 12:28:12 i think i've gotten 4 or 5 before 12:28:14 *something 12:28:24 since brogue's food clock can actually matter 12:28:41 it really doesnt have much of an effect 12:28:51 that game's food clock only matters when you rest too often 12:29:33 * HangedMan shrugs 12:29:38 this is just a general roguelike thing (I see people do this in crawl too): people underestimate how much time waiting 100 turns is, versus traveling around 12:30:05 IME in Brogue, if you don't interrupt resting before it rests to full HP (from low HP, so you have to rest), and if you dawdle about too much time on a level (especially wandering around with keys), you starve to death 12:30:29 the code is really careful about placing food -- it does it separately to normal random spawns to ration it out strictly 12:30:38 clearly should make default 50 12:30:38 it does a good job with that 12:31:16 i've never starved in brogue but the food system has pushed me onward before. nice advantage of having a short, linear game 12:31:26 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:29 I am concerned that Pender wants to move Brogue from fights to exploration/traps/etc. I am not convinced that can work, but we'll see. 12:32:09 i have seen the proposals for removing experience levels. i dont like that much. i think there should be a reward for killing things, even if it's smallish 12:32:26 i think this just goes down to the psychology of computer rpgs 12:32:27 evilmike: in brogue? 12:32:36 little reward mechanics like that are what keep players going 12:32:36 -!- rast_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:41 heh, is this going to lead to 41-qys talk 12:32:48 some things have death drops and pets can learn from dead things, so there is already a reward (major in the case of ally builds), but perhaps not enough 12:32:56 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:34:20 it's good that there will still be other rewards. But I really think, the more reward mechanisms you have, the better 12:34:39 is brogue ditched xp and replaced it with something else, i'd probably be alright with that 12:35:18 removing XP would work better in brogue than some other games, at least, since it is very hard to escape a monster 12:36:42 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:36:44 -!- rast_ is now known as rast 12:36:44 I sort of like the decisions I sometimes have to make based on what my strength is like vs. what my level is like, though 12:38:18 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:19 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:40:34 03Grunt * r28a9c8c8c012 10/crawl-ref/source/ (130 files in 6 dirs): Show tiles in Ability menu, using dd's ability tiles (#6054). 12:40:44 _dd, thanks for getting the missing tiles done expediently :) 12:40:56 <_dd> np, it was fun :) 12:42:07 we need rewards for the tiles makers 12:42:15 any old bastard can code, but pixel art is actually hard 12:42:30 they get a line in CREDITS.txt 12:42:31 I think the last tile bit I consider before branch time is going to be 6057. 12:42:33 well, 1/3 of a line 12:42:37 haha 12:42:50 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 12:43:07 -!- naalis has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 12:43:17 Unless someone can think of something else that urgently needs looking at? 12:43:38 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 12:43:41 Wensley: which of code, vaults, tiles, design is hardest? 12:43:46 -!- dptr1988 has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:45:43 dpeg_: I don't think they're all directly comparable, but code is probably the easiest. bad code that puts the bits in the right place is just as good as beautiful code that puts the bits in the right place. 12:46:12 but putting human-brain-bits in the right place is harder than putting computer-brain-bits in the right place, so vaults, tiles, and design are harder 12:46:36 and I say this as a coder 12:46:37 since when are human-brain-bits ever placed right 12:46:38 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE] 12:46:46 ancient crawl should convince that anyone can code 12:47:45 Wensley: it is natural to say this as a coder because you tend to underestimate the things you can (and value things you can't do much higher) :) 12:47:52 dpeg_: but design might be the hardest since that requires one to be both an artist and a politician :) 12:48:22 Design requires both the dagger and the hammer, I've heard. 12:50:25 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:52:40 something i find about level design, is coming up with a rough, working version of something is easy. 95% of the work (and time) is spent polishing it. and even then, it might wind up being unfun if you did something wrong 12:52:58 this isn't such a big deal with crawl vaults though, because they are fairly quick to make and not very big 12:53:36 encompass vaults, branch ends, serial vaults, portal vaults 12:54:09 still not _that_ big 12:54:21 evilmike: I once made a series of ten alternative Elf vaults... all of which got scrapped at some point later. That did hurt :) 12:54:41 they had curse skulls 12:54:58 clearly this is why you then turned your attention to changing branches, evilmike 12:55:01 They had hidden areas and that drove players crazy. 12:55:04 another common pitfall (that I hear romhacks accused of, although I have only a little experience with these) is making something that only you are able to beat, or even worse, only you find fun. Spend a few years on a solo project, and tune it to your difficulty level, and it will be extremely hard 12:55:05 they even removed farm_and_country!! 12:55:23 good. kill all players 12:55:38 elliott: that we me, and I did make a substitute encompassing vault. 12:55:39 1learn add devteam 12:55:49 dpeg_: :) 12:55:59 -!- chewymouse has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:56:03 <|amethyst> evilmike: that's why the dev team needs bad players like me :P 12:56:13 romhacks and general editor-filled games (zzt, knytt stories, inform stuff), though that is more about precision and timing on average over the kind of things roguelikes have 12:56:13 * elliott only saw farm_and_country when HangedMan was sifting through ancient crawl vault files 12:56:44 and I hear many a person complain about sprint difficulties anyway 12:57:00 Who complains about Sprint? Off with their heads! 12:57:22 s|person|freshling| 12:57:26 I think the sprint map I was working on is currently in a "too hard" state. elliptic tried an earlier version of it and said it was easy. so i listened to him... 12:58:11 just write a thing_do_difficulty 12:58:13 if people other than elliptic can win it, it's too easy :P 12:58:14 is that the one that HangedMan was complaining about getting a lernaean hydra on early :p 12:58:18 yes 12:58:29 elliott: if you want to see some interesting removed vaults, check out early versions of wizlab.des 12:58:32 I was complaining about said hydra mostly because the musu was still on ice-beasts 12:58:40 there are like... 4 or so large wizlabs that didn't get finished 12:58:55 evilmike: cool, I didn't realise people had started to work on the planned ones 12:58:59 borgjnor's mortuary, alistair's brewery, ozocubu's reifrdgerator, uh 12:59:22 elliott: no, these were made back when wizlabs were first being made. and only ozocubu's is on that list, the others were just random themes 12:59:36 i think they just never got finished, so they were axed 13:00:49 evilmike: hard is good. In Sprint, you can be more unforgiving. 13:01:49 "sprint" and "balance" dont exactly fit together anyway 13:03:55 elliott: oh yeah, since you mentioned farm_and_country. there is also the old box_level vault 13:04:15 it was bad, so dpeg made a new box level, although the only similarity is the name, really 13:04:25 they both have boxes! 13:04:27 there are boxes 13:04:32 this is true 13:04:51 the name box_level just makes me think of v:1-7 13:06:25 box_level_dp is weird (heavy electric eel/lava snake spam, the probably-fine-with-divinations weird ctele shenanigans in the center box, the bees and wax area) 13:06:29 <_dd> so... is there still going to be an ability tab on the gui itself? 13:06:38 _dd, I'm working on one right now :) 13:06:43 HangedMan: yes, it is way too busy. I wouldn't do it like this anymore. 13:06:54 <_dd> ah ok just wondering :) 13:06:55 mmm 13:07:38 I anticipate 0.12-branching just for spin_cycle, profane_halls, and twisty_little_passages 13:08:17 <_dd> on another note, autofight breaks down if you disable vi keys... is there anything that could be done about that? 13:08:47 could have a conditional in the autofight lua delta-to-direction code 13:09:03 *delta-to-key, rather 13:14:21 when designing vaults I find it pretty hard to make (elaborate) layouts from scratch, I need to have a fairly complete idea of what it should look like or else I can't make anything I like 13:14:36 I have a huge txt full of half made vaults like those 13:15:19 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:16:37 personally have a list of potential layouts, a list of potential vault gimmicks/concepts, possibly mash together or build up base on one and then edit in the other 13:16:44 <_dd> hm, vault making sounds like fun, maybe i should try it sometime 13:17:01 -!- elliott has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:17:17 -!- elliott has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:19 followed by a lot of edits, generation, and over-controlling randomization 13:19:00 -!- infiniplex has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:57 mmm? 13:20:18 How can I use LUA to determine if a vault with uniq_BAR has been placed? 13:20:55 there's a function to find if the unique foo already exists 13:21:13 exists anywhere, or just on this level? 13:21:24 anywhere; the unique-placing vaults use it 13:21:28 I think it is you.unique("unique name")? 13:22:40 I don;t think that will work. I am wondering about portal vaults. 13:22:50 oh! sorry, I misread your question; ignore me 13:26:21 By now there are so many vaults that we can afford to trash subpar ones (I did this with entry vaults, most of them mine). 13:27:46 infiniplex: the jory vault does this, i'll find it 13:27:49 do I get to bring up again how onia_ninara_007_chamber_of_wet_secrets and the four years nine months it's been commented out 13:28:00 ...bleh, sentence structure 13:28:15 infiniplex: what portal vault you're doingß 13:28:17 infiniplex: i'm pretty sure it's what elliott said, though 13:29:01 pretty sure he's integrating portal vaults into the vault-based rooms in the V overhaul 13:29:21 evilmike: I was thinking about unique monsters 13:29:23 infiniplex: yeah look at due_tower_of_silence in large_themed.des. that vault checks if jory already has been placed, and vetos if he was 13:29:24 what he said 13:29:35 oh. 13:29:36 the unique-placing vault code uses the function, at least 13:29:39 well, portal vault entrances 13:29:42 i understand 13:29:50 i thought he was talking about uniques in portal vaults :P 13:30:05 the sonja and grum use in volcanos is weird 13:30:20 <_dd> does anyone ever actually play gladiators? 13:30:31 fighters but better, so yes 13:30:47 <_dd> it kinda seems to me like starting as a gladiator isn't hugely different from starting as a fighter... 13:30:52 Won't work, because a) there is no uniq involved, and b) it would just try to place another entrace forever 13:31:58 _dd: good light armour, throwing nets 13:32:27 <_dd> i don't know, i kind of feel like the class could be made a bit more interesting, that's all 13:32:34 leather armour vs. scale mail is a pretty big difference, at least 13:32:39 I have to turn off overwritable for the layout because it is incompatible with subvaults (they get overwritten and you get items on walls) 13:32:59 <_dd> elliott, sure, but it's not like either armor is hard to find even in the beginning 13:33:01 differences are possibly not enough to *differentiate* them, but enough to make one better than the other 13:33:10 _dd: Gl is the interesting melee background 13:33:16 _dd: well, starting with nets is a big advantage too 13:33:26 <_dd> maybe 13:33:36 <_dd> well maybe i just have to play it more 13:33:49 the nets are a way to solve Problems; Fi has none of that 13:34:07 infiniplex: would dgn.map_by_tag("uniq_BAR") work for what you are doing? 13:34:34 <_dd> so why do so many people play fighters instead of gladiators... why is fighter more often recommended for beginners if gladiator is similar but better? 13:34:35 there's also Grunt's new stuff that replaces a square with a portal 13:34:38 iff that portal hasn't been placed, I think? 13:34:43 <_dd> at least, as far as i can tell... 13:34:46 I don't know how that works but maybe infiniplex can use it 13:35:06 elliott: what it does is preferentially place portals on tiles so designated. 13:35:07 _dd: "fighter" sounds more straightforward than "gladiator" :P 13:35:46 <_dd> elliott, maybe... 13:36:01 is map_by_tag just this level or everywhere? 13:36:13 <_dd> i still kind of feel like gladiator could benefit from some extra flavour... i'm not sure exactly what 13:36:26 infiniplex: I'm not sure 13:36:41 I will check. If so, thats what I need 13:36:51 _dd: gladiator is fine. the class that's in need of improvement is fighter 13:36:53 something like merging fi and gl sounds easier than differentiating the two meaningfully but that is just my opinion 13:37:13 _dd: if you want to know why people play fighters more often, it's because people are dumb :P 13:37:26 <_dd> haha 13:37:37 merging them would be ok too. just give fighters throwing nets and delete gladiators, i guess 13:37:46 oh and give them a buckler instead of a shield 13:37:52 well, a fightery class that starts with light armour is fairly important 13:38:02 merfolk probably don't want to start with scale mail 13:38:06 <_dd> how about creating a gladiator god 13:38:06 just take off the armour you start with then :P 13:38:15 or pick armour depending on your race's apts 13:38:27 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:32 armour selection like weapon selection might be a good idea 13:38:40 <_dd> god of gladiators, gives you piety for... fighting enemies in large rooms? 13:38:40 <_dd> idk 13:38:45 more starting options nooooooooo 13:38:47 not sure the leather armour is actually worse than the scale mail even if you have bad armour apt but I have not done any calculations 13:38:52 i didn't say make it an option 13:39:03 fighter -> knight, give them either a polearm or a longsword and heavy armor + shield 13:39:05 _dd: gods shouldn't be for one single playing style, let alone a single background 13:39:12 <_dd> trog 13:39:22 Wensley: the problem with shields is that you aren't going to start out with enough skill to make it worthwhile 13:39:25 not the way shields currently work 13:39:32