00:00:58 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3035-g888366d (33)
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00:20:00 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3035-g888366d
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01:39:20 <CIA-23> 03elliptic * rccb81436bd72 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Double the piety cost of evolving a wandering mushroom, remove the fungus discount.
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03:05:33 <Cheibriados> Crash when using high score list to view morgue file with long lines (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5988) by tmhedberg
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05:00:02 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3036-gccb8143
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06:16:19 <CIA-23> 03t * rba02e237487c 10/crawl-ref/source/hiscores.cc: Avoid crash when viewing morgue file with long lines
06:16:19 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * r24941032378c 10/crawl-ref/source/chardump.cc: Word-wrap the monster list in character dumps.
06:16:19 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * r7282fce25d2e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (chardump.cc mutation.cc mutation.h): Don't center the section header for mutation list in character dumps.
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09:33:32 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3039-g7282fce (33)
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12:40:48 <CIA-23> 03elliptic * r5c818369f5a0 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Reduce wandering mushroom cost from 4 to 3.
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13:40:51 <Cheibriados> map_knowledge lists invalid items (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5989) by KiloByte
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13:49:25 <HangedMan> The likeness of a beatiful elven archer, sculpted in finest marble. It holds a bow aloft, and appears to be magically animated, letting it use the bow to riddle you with arrows.
13:49:29 <HangedMan> Here: an archer statue, wielding a runed crossbow
13:50:52 <kilobyte> "archer", not "crossbowman"
13:51:16 <HangedMan> better go change statue_cache then
13:51:41 <HangedMan> alternatively, make it more ambigious so it can just have any ranged weapon?
13:51:54 <kilobyte> the former takes 5-10 years to train, the latter gets decent after a week and hardly gets any better with better training.
13:52:14 <HangedMan> statue training must get very dull
13:52:27 <ghallberg> They are slow learners.
13:53:48 <kilobyte> looking at several dictionaries/etc, looks like all of them use "archer" specifically as a bow user, with a wording that doesn't suggest crossbows are ok
13:55:21 <HangedMan> poor statue_cache, losing that distinct not-bows bit
14:03:27 <BlastHardcheese> fr javelineer statue
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14:06:08 <kilobyte> crossbows are helluva easier to mechanize
14:06:37 <BlastHardcheese> or how about animated crossbow
14:06:52 <HangedMan> I personally just want a generic magical ranged statue because I am trying to use a slings statue
14:07:28 <kilobyte> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow -- China 4th century BC, just repeatedly press the trigger
14:08:37 <kilobyte> or something way cooler: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybolos, Greece 3th century BC, fully automated chain gun.  Too big for a human to wield, but with appropriately larger bolts.
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16:18:19 <evilmike> Grunt: you might want to look at this: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5229
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16:38:55 <bmh> What have we got for invisible monsters with ranged attacks? Orc wizards, some manner of elf?
16:39:23 <HangedMan> ilsuiw
16:39:31 <bmh> ??ilsuiw
16:39:31 <Henzell> ilsuiw[1/2]: A cunning merfolk water-witch in 0.6+. Summons water elementals. Guaranteed to appear somewhere between Shoals:3-5, but only rarely above Shoals:5.
16:39:40 <bmh> Uniques don't count :)
16:39:44 <HangedMan> heh
16:40:14 <bmh> I was just reflecting on how bothersome an invisible centaur would be.
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16:41:27 <HangedMan> well, two of five wizard/deep elf mage/ogre mage spell sets also have invis, alongside boggarts if you count summons
16:42:05 <HangedMan> my mind wanders to invisible smiters
16:42:11 <bmh> ugh
16:42:22 <HangedMan> heh
16:42:30 <ChrisOelmueller> invisible borises should very much count imho
16:42:38 <Zannick> Bori
16:42:45 <HangedMan> right, there's a lich set with invis
16:42:45 <bmh> I had an idea for a trap, but I don't want to write the lua for it... let me type some stuff out...
16:43:00 <bmh> what's the symbol for lava?
16:43:16 <Zannick> l, i think
16:43:17 <MarvinPA> l probably
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16:45:16 <syraine> Has anyone ever noticed that allies tend to try to close in melee even if they're much stronger at range?
16:45:34 <HangedMan> that is because monsters in general do that
16:45:39 <syraine> I mean, that's probably rhetorical.
16:45:40 <syraine> Yes.
16:45:54 <syraine> It's just that there's not actually a command to stop them.
16:46:19 <bmh> https://gist.github.com/3202019
16:46:20 <bmh> something like this
16:46:21 <ChrisOelmueller> if you are trying to get more maintain_range into crawl then nothx
16:46:32 <HangedMan> ally micromanagement is highly discouraged
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16:46:52 <bmh> (but with more hilbert curve goodness)
16:47:02 <HangedMan> and what current versions of it are in (across stairs, equipment) are already much maligned in implementation
16:47:21 <syraine> Not maintain_range, just 'flee'
16:47:39 <bmh> Is it intentional that we use 'retreating' and 'fleeing'?
16:47:56 <ghallberg> ChrisOelmueller: Why=?
16:48:01 <ghallberg> It makes hexes stronger.
16:48:06 <syraine> Not to manage a subset, just every ally.
16:48:19 <syraine> So that's the micromanagement thing out, I guess.
16:49:04 <ChrisOelmueller> ghallberg: i wouldn't notice, and i'm not sure that is sufficient reasoning to annoy everybody not using hexes
16:49:22 <MarvinPA> bmh: huh? they're distinct things aren't they?
16:49:32 <ghallberg> More varied monster tactics would be a good thing imo.
16:49:34 <syraine> Retreating is when the enemy cannot attack you and has chosen to leave LoS.
16:49:42 <bmh> let me take a screen shot...
16:49:44 <syraine> Fleeing is when the Fear effect has been applied.
16:50:12 <bmh> http://i.imgur.com/fHgkz.png
16:50:18 <syraine> And that recurring glitch where intelligent enemies are fleeing when you enter a level.
16:50:33 <syraine> Oh, well, that's a little inconsistent.
16:50:37 <MarvinPA> oh i guess fleeing is a subset of retreating actually
16:52:45 <syraine> Bmh, what is the ^?
16:53:04 <HangedMan> trap
16:53:06 <syraine> Nevermind, I suppose that's the trigger.
16:53:22 <syraine> I am aware of what ^ denotes in a vault... it's just, yeah.
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16:53:55 <bmh> yeah, the trigger
16:54:12 <bmh> on its own, it's harmless
16:54:21 <syraine> Okay, so you enter the center of the vault and suddenly you're surrounded by lava? That's almost beneficial.
16:54:54 <syraine> What depth is this trap?
16:55:24 <bmh> syraine: you tell me? The shallower the more dangerous, no?
16:55:54 <syraine> Well, thinking about it, you'd want to set it after D:4.
16:56:11 <syraine> Early on, there's only a small chance of strong ranged enemies, so.
16:56:26 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte 07layout * redd623aa93c4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-deposit.cc dgn-deposit.h main.cc): A map generator based on an electrode in a solution.
16:56:36 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte 07layout * r5cdea5a2774c 10/crawl-ref/source/libutil.h: Grab two functions from libutil.
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16:58:56 <evilmike> are all the walls gold plated?
17:00:31 <kilobyte> bmh: is that screenshot rescaled somehow?  The font there is nearly unreadable.
17:00:31 <kilobyte> evilmike: :p
17:00:31 <syraine> Layout_voltaic_cell
17:00:31 <syraine> =\
17:00:31 <syraine> Maybe it's a glass electrode
17:00:46 <bmh> kilobyte: that.s how I play crawl.......
17:00:49 <ontoclasm> layout_faraday_cage
17:01:00 <bmh> inconsolata 12pt
17:02:49 <syraine> Maybe it's a cat
17:02:53 <kilobyte> syraine: http://sprunge.us/dLTJ with no seed, http://sprunge.us/WVUJ with a radius 13 circular seed
17:03:15 <kilobyte> bmh: there is something terribly wrong with antialiasing on your system then
17:04:08 <ontoclasm> kilobyte: those look pretty cool
17:04:14 <bmh> kilobyte: can I see a screenshot of what you think it ought to look like?
17:04:19 <bmh> kilobyte: what's the algorithm you're using?
17:04:23 <ontoclasm> those should be used for Forest
17:04:40 <ontoclasm> they look very woodsy
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17:04:46 <syraine> I use the opposite
17:04:47 <bmh> kilobyte: I've been experimenting with generating non-grid terrain: http://i.imgur.com/pO26f.png
17:04:50 <syraine> Consolas 24 point
17:06:13 <evilmike> Looking at those examples, I think more of the orcish mines... although the maps for that branch tend to be smaller
17:06:29 <evilmike> (compared to the first example, anyway)
17:06:37 <nooodl> bmh: take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering
17:06:57 <bmh> nooodl: yes.. it looks fine to me, though
17:06:58 <syraine> Kilobyte, correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't there be some scattered empty squares outside of that
17:07:07 <syraine> It looks nice, though
17:07:22 <syraine> I was imagining narrow corridors ending in dead ends occasionally
17:07:43 <syraine> There is some of it on the seeded screenshot
17:08:10 <syraine> If it's any consolation, bmh, it's small but readable to me too.
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17:11:06 <ChrisOelmueller> to think that my crawl runs almost full-screen [as 80x24]
17:11:28 <nooodl> ChrisOelmueller: same here
17:11:48 <nooodl> well, it's more like 2/3 of my screen
17:12:12 <syraine> Mine is about a third of my screen
17:12:14 <nooodl> i like having the bottom of my irc window below it so i can see what people are chatting about
17:12:36 <nooodl> syraine: at 24pt?
17:12:39 <syraine> Yeah.
17:12:40 <nooodl> do you play crawl on a tv
17:12:45 <syraine> No. xP
17:12:48 <syraine> That would be funny, though!
17:13:04 <syraine> High definition console use.
17:13:10 <nooodl> conduct: crawl with a NES controller
17:14:49 <syraine> !tell kilobyte For when you come back: the layout looks nice. I imagined that there would be narrow corridors ending in dead ends, and I can see a bit of that at the top. Would that occur currently?
17:14:50 <Henzell> syraine: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
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17:19:33 <kilobyte> yay connectivity
17:19:33 <Henzell> kilobyte: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
17:19:43 <kilobyte> http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ is a cool thing for cases like this
17:21:23 <kilobyte> about joysticks: I found a 30 years old joystick a few days ago during home repairs, it was almost unused so it's not unlikely it will work :p
17:22:00 <kilobyte> no joystick port on this computer, there's a crapload of cards with these lying around though
17:22:51 <kilobyte> joystick support in Crawl could have been interesting a few years ago, nowadays you use mostly o and Tab
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17:24:03 <HangedMan> yes, tactics don't exist
17:24:41 <kilobyte> back to the layout: http://sprunge.us/TfFY shows problems with seeds: the particle starts at the border, and that results in inner areas being woefully uncovered
17:25:14 <ChrisOelmueller> wasn't NES the thing with two red buttons
17:25:15 <kilobyte> that circular seed had that too: only a single particle managed to leak inside the ring
17:25:21 <ChrisOelmueller> o / tab, done
17:25:56 <Cheibriados> Golden statue tiles update (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5990) by roctavian
17:26:07 <kilobyte> NES controllers are bad at precise control of diagonals
17:26:12 <nooodl> ChrisOelmueller: also a dpad and select/start buttons
17:26:26 <bmh> eliminating Hive was a good move, but Bee vaults still give too much food. I'm swimming in honeycombs.
17:33:43 <elliott> kilobyte: that layout looks cool
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17:39:57 <HangedMan> evilmike, a brief gloss over of an encompass vault?
17:42:53 <bmh> kilobyte: do you have a description of the algorithm somewhere?
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17:52:05 <kilobyte> bmh: a particle enters the map at a random place along the border, then moves randomly one cell at a time, every direction is weighted by the gravitic (electrostatic...) potential of cells in that direction.  If the particle tries to enter an already occupied cell, it has a chance of attaching instead; if that roll fails the particle backs off and continues travelling.
17:53:21 <bmh> kilobyte: hm. Have you thought of imparting momentum to the particle?
17:53:57 <kilobyte> updating the gravity map is slow, I tested simpler variants like distance to a shortest deposited place, and they seem to produce very similar results
17:54:03 <kilobyte> no momentum currently
17:54:38 <kilobyte> not sure how good that would be
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17:57:37 <kilobyte> I've read an article somewhere like ~20 years ago; googling shows stuff like 5th page of http://portal.mem.drexel.edu/zhou/Portals/0/PDF/TEXAS-pap1.PDF
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18:01:02 <bmh> kilobyte: http://i.imgur.com/ufHav.png -- this is using only perlin noise
18:04:26 <kilobyte> bmh: yeah, cool
18:04:44 <bmh> kilobyte: guess I'm revealing my bias toward simulation based methods :)
18:05:03 <bmh> the particle stuff looks great, btw
18:05:06 <kilobyte> the problem with using perlin for Crawl, though, is that it is good for producing something with many tiers but sucks for binary results
18:07:07 <kilobyte> ie, we can get something Shoals-like: http://sprunge.us/eLYV
18:07:07 <bmh> kilobyte: this would probably work -- lay down some points, generate a minimum-spanning tree (or beta skeleton) connect it with digital lines and then distort the whole thing
18:07:17 <bmh> you'd get connectivity
18:08:41 <kilobyte> a spanning tree, plus some random edges added; pure trees tend to suck in Crawl
18:09:35 <kilobyte> (pure trees being bad is one of downsides of that electrode+particle depositing generator, too)
18:13:49 <bmh> kilobyte: yeah. beta skeleton is where it's at. I don't know how to implement it yet. You could start with a MST and then add in edges say in inverse frequency to their length
18:17:10 <kilobyte> an old idea which I didn't get to try yet is starting from a 6-ary regular triangle grid, removing edges at random (making sure to not break connectivity -- on a regular grid any spanning tree is a MST)
18:18:12 <kilobyte> and only then moving nodes around: every step, a node is moved to a random place that doesn't make it go through unrelated edges
18:19:22 <kilobyte> not sure which approach would be better, I hope the one starting from a regular grid could be more likely to reduce strange cases
18:22:08 <kilobyte> also, the graph would be stored in memory.  Every time the level is supposed to shift, edges that pass through a vault or are too close to the player are marked as immutable during this shift.  Mutable nodes move around, mutable edges can flip between being enabled/disabled.
18:22:47 <kilobyte> every edge would be rendered with some sort of a fuzzy algorithm.  Nodes would have a chance to produce a bigger "clearing".
18:23:17 <kilobyte> -- this is the more complex algorithm for "Enchanted Forest" I had in mind
18:23:26 <kilobyte> the simpler idea failed miserably :(
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18:24:33 <ontoclasm> when i heard of the enchanted forest thing, my idea was that
18:24:43 <ontoclasm> only the few nodes near you exist at all
18:25:32 <ontoclasm> when you walk around, new nodes and edges generate in front of you
18:25:53 <ontoclasm> and every once in while nodes which are far away from you get pruned
18:26:40 <kilobyte> on a finite non-scrolling map that's equivalent to what I described, as long as magic mapping is not involved
18:26:41 <ontoclasm> the problem there is the aimlessness that the abyss has - there's no reason not to just walk back and forth
18:26:57 <ontoclasm> yeah
18:26:57 <kilobyte> yeah
18:27:03 <ontoclasm> maybe do something like the uhm
18:27:10 <ontoclasm> oh, damnit
18:27:16 <kilobyte> also, a regular branch probably shouldn't have infinite xp and loot
18:27:17 <ontoclasm> the forest in ocarina of time
18:27:27 <ontoclasm> where paths are sort of labelled
18:27:40 <ontoclasm> so if what you want is to get out, you take the "lit" paths
18:27:56 <ontoclasm> but if what you want is the rune, you take the dark, sinister-looking ones
18:28:27 <ontoclasm> and then when new nodes get made, you weight what shows up based on which path they took
18:29:35 <ontoclasm> or, similarly
18:29:43 <ontoclasm> keep track of a "depth" variable
18:30:00 <ontoclasm> when they take dark paths, it increases and vice versa
18:30:20 <Eronarn> that sounds awesome
18:30:23 <ontoclasm> as they get deeper, nastier stuff shows up
18:30:25 <Eronarn> i'm going to go steal it for my game
18:30:39 <elliott> ontoclasm: that breaks autoexplore
18:30:44 <ontoclasm> oh
18:30:45 <ontoclasm> true
18:30:52 <elliott> which is a shame :(
18:31:13 <elliott> probably walking-back-and-forwards-scumming is more relevant than breaking autoexplore
18:31:17 <bmh> I've been thinking about the abyss. I think I screwed up. It's just too damn boring.
18:31:41 <ontoclasm> well thinking about the abyss does that to you
18:32:04 <kilobyte> Nietzche and so on :p
18:32:19 <ontoclasm> think too long on the generation algorithm for the Abyss
18:32:30 <bmh> Wouldn't the abyss be more interesting if it wasn't uniformly random? If there were pockets of normal dungeon?
18:32:55 <kilobyte> for the Enchanted Forest, I'm thinking about redistributing items and monsters to nearby places, so there's no new loot
18:33:10 <ontoclasm> mm
18:33:35 <bmh> kilobyte: for a while I've wanted a 'side branch' where the it has down stairs that connect with the rest of the dungeon
18:33:41 <kilobyte> however, there's one bad thing: map rot would make you keep exploring areas you already cleared
18:34:04 <kilobyte> bmh: the Abyss, or...?
18:34:23 <bmh> kilobyte: for the forest, say. So you could enter it and rejoin the dungeon in another place
18:35:08 <ontoclasm> when the rune-lock thing was being considered someone suggested letting people bypass it by going through elf
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18:35:22 <ontoclasm> i.e. elf:5 would have a portal to like d:15
18:35:23 <bmh> ontoclasm: rune lock?
18:35:24 <bmh> ??rune lock
18:35:24 <Henzell> rune lock[1/2]: an idea to lock d:14 unless you have a rune
18:35:28 <bmh> oh
18:36:07 <bmh> ontoclasm: as long as it's a on directional portal that sounds fine. You wouldn't want to make escaping with the orb easier
18:36:34 <kilobyte> I already thought about breaking the rules, like: every level has different rules: shifting around ("enchanted"), reduced LOS ("dark"), etc.  Also, non-linear order, so Forest:2 may have one downstair lead to Forest:3, another to Forest:4.
18:37:06 <kilobyte> leading to various places in the Dungeon would fit within those :)
18:37:39 <ontoclasm> i like the "lost in the darkness" theme
18:37:54 <bmh> ontoclasm: you're likey to be eaten by a grue.
18:38:38 <kilobyte> bmh: having some monster emulate adventurers from Gruesome would be great
18:38:42 <HangedMan> !seen grunt
18:38:42 <Henzell> I last saw Grunt at Sun Jul 29 15:16:07 2012 UTC (8h 22m 35s ago) saying Oh, are you testing spincycle still? on ##crawl.
18:39:29 <kilobyte> I mean, those cones of light that screw you up if you if the adventurer turns around
18:39:32 <ontoclasm> i'm always sad SInv is so easy to get, a horrible invisible thing stalking you through the forest would be amazing
18:39:55 <bmh> ontoclasm: two rows of trees block LOS :)
18:39:58 <ontoclasm> somebody even made directional sound
18:39:59 <bmh> Just hide it in the trees!
18:40:03 <ontoclasm> so you can hear it coming for you
18:40:06 <kilobyte> @??spriggan assassin
18:40:07 <Gretell> unknown monster: "spriggan assassin"
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18:42:57 <kilobyte> there are two proposed designs for assassins: 1. moving normally but not being on mgrd() (ie, not affected by anything), if there's another monster or a damaging cloud, the assassin doesn't move (assuming he's not there).  Every turn in your LOS there's a stealth roll, if the assassin fails he gets revealed.  Otherwise, he's revealed when he tries to enter your position, with a dagger entering under your 5th rib.
18:43:30 <kilobyte> he'd need to ignore summons, otherwise there's obvious abuse of always travelling in a swarm of butterflies
18:44:03 <HangedMan> isn't there already
18:45:45 <kilobyte> proposal 2: no position or random stealth rolls, when you get below a certain hp level, the assassin appears from nowhere at a distance depending on your awareness roll
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18:45:59 <ontoclasm> hell-effect-ssassin
18:46:49 <kilobyte> design 2 suffers from abuse of intentionally reducing your hp when you're safe
18:47:01 <ontoclasm> yeah
18:47:16 <ontoclasm> could do something with tension but it's still scummable
18:47:27 <ontoclasm> and if you're tough you'll never see them
18:48:02 <kilobyte> ie, you'd need to lower your hp or you lose xp
18:49:09 <ontoclasm> i was thinking less "assassins" and more "giant beast that hunts you down"
18:49:42 <kilobyte> that's why I prefer variant 1: to clear the level you need to just explore it the normal way
18:49:44 <ontoclasm> in order not to break autoexplore, it could howl or something when you're nearby, showing you vaguely where it is
18:50:07 <ontoclasm> so it's a grue basically
18:50:15 <ontoclasm> wait... wrong game
18:50:20 <ontoclasm> wampus, that's what it is
18:50:26 <HangedMan> wumpus
18:50:33 <ontoclasm> yeah
18:50:58 <ontoclasm> it'd have to be hellaciously nasty to scare extended guys though
18:51:13 <kilobyte> bats with AF_TELEPORT, shafts :p
18:51:40 <ontoclasm> only bows allowed
18:51:52 <ChrisOelmueller> , laser falcons
18:52:21 <Cheibriados> Grey Draconians in Dragon Form Lack See Invis (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5991) by CursedNobleman
18:53:18 <HangedMan> such thoroughly testing
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18:59:07 <ontoclasm> i don't understand that at all
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19:05:48 <bmh> does freezing cloud targeting leak information about unseen parts of the dungeon?
19:05:57 <elliptic> yes
19:06:16 <elliptic> this is known but I think people decided not to care about it for some reason
19:12:08 <bmh> not sure how you'd fix it without running the risk of freezing yourself
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19:13:48 <kilobyte> bmh: there's a "maybe" part: you don't know whether the cloud will be size 8 or 10
19:14:24 <kilobyte> so if you don't know what is behind the corner, the "maybe" part can be bigger
19:15:51 <kilobyte> accounting both for the possibility there's a large open room, or that there's no passage
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19:40:53 <|amethyst> tracers can leak information too
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19:45:51 <MarvinPA> elliptic: i think it's that it was particularly hard to fix, or something
19:46:00 <MarvinPA> compared to lightning bolt bouncing
19:47:02 <|amethyst> %git f60279a5
19:47:02 <Cheibriados> |amethyst * 0.11-a0-2729-gf60279a: Fix info leak about unseen wall when targetting bounces. (3 weeks ago, 1 file, 14+ 0-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/f60279a51c9d
19:47:23 <|amethyst> ^^ the commit message for that one describes the leak with tracers
19:47:42 <|amethyst> basically, they should use map_knowledge rather than grd
19:47:56 <|amethyst> ("they" being player tracers)
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19:58:05 <elliott> <HangedMan> I thought it auto-price-id'd
19:58:07 <elliott> oops
19:58:08 <elliott> wrong channel
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20:02:31 <elliptic> so I've been looking at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5748 and trying to decide what the best fix is
20:03:38 <elliptic> it happens because you can go berserk at the bottom of "Hungry" (2067), and the trog ability costs 200-400 nutrition so that could take you to 1667
20:04:20 <Grunt> I can immediately think of two plausible solutions, one of which would be marginally trickier to implement than the other.
20:04:25 <Grunt> a) remove the hunger cost from the ability;
20:04:26 <elliptic> but berserk ends whenever you get below 1700, because there is a 700 satiation decrease at the end of berserk and <1000 is starving
20:04:42 <Grunt> b) factor the extra cost in when determining if the player can go berserk or not when using the ability.
20:04:54 <DracoOmega> I don't like b
20:05:01 <elliptic> Grunt: whether or not you can go berserk should just depend on the visible status "Hungry"
20:05:04 <DracoOmega> Yeah
20:05:19 <elliptic> and (a) would be a large buff to trog, which is not a good idea
20:05:23 <DracoOmega> Maybe decrease the cost of it in the edge case where it would take you out right away?
20:05:34 <DracoOmega> A little grace period, as it were?
20:05:47 <DracoOmega> Since the player can't tell when that is, anyway
20:05:51 <elliptic> my inclination is actually to not kick people out of berserk so early
20:06:07 <elliptic> they aren't actually going to die at 967 satiation for quite a while
20:06:21 <elliptic> can kick them out at 1600, say
20:06:59 <DracoOmega> What's the point at which the random chance to die kicks in? Because it isn't actually 0, is it?
20:07:18 <Grunt> 100 is the cutoff.
20:07:28 <Grunt> ...if you drop below 100 at any point, you die.
20:08:00 <DracoOmega> But don't you have a small, but existing, chance to die from hunger above that?
20:08:07 <DracoOmega> I've never actually looked at the relevant code
20:08:07 <elliptic> at 100-500 you have a 1/40 chance of fainting
20:08:22 <Grunt> You *faint* if you're below 500 hunger, but you're not at immediate risk of dying.
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20:08:43 <DracoOmega> Oh, hmmm... I could have sworn I'd heard someone say that you could die above the certain death threshold
20:09:25 <DracoOmega> But if nothing at all bad can happen until 500, then dropping the threshold for berserk ending a little below 1000 doesn't sound bad
20:10:03 <Grunt> todo: remove berserk hunger restrictions so that we can get back into the "die immediately on ending berserk" spirit <______<
20:10:29 <elliptic> something related about berserk: when looking at the code, I noticed that amulet of rage is actually very useful for trogites
20:10:47 <elliptic> because it doesn't have the 200-400 hunger cost when you use it for berserk
20:11:00 <DracoOmega> I actually didn't know that the ability incurred an additional cost
20:11:04 <DracoOmega> Until this discussion
20:11:21 <elliptic> I knew it did but I assumed the amulet did also...
20:11:35 <mikee_> i actually knew of the distinction but i didn't care much
20:11:40 <DracoOmega> I just thought it was all part of the berserk status itself
20:12:19 <elliptic> the amulet does have a failure chance unless evoc is fairly high, so it isn't strictly better
20:12:39 <ChrisOelmueller> as an unspoiled player, i'd assume a god-given ability is superior to some mundane amulet
20:12:40 <DracoOmega> I'd say that probably makes it generally worse, on average
20:12:45 <mikee_> it's automatically set to like 95% success for troll or ogre though, i think
20:12:48 <elliptic> but it still seems weird to me, and I'd sort of like to give it the same hunger cost
20:12:53 <elliptic> ChrisOelmueller: yes
20:13:21 <DracoOmega> Well, in most cases I would rather the higher success rate over conserving a little hunger
20:13:25 <DracoOmega> In terms of superiority
20:14:19 <mikee_> the amulet is already strangely useful for trogites anyway because of its passive effects
20:14:27 <elliptic> yes, possibly I was exaggerating about "very useful"... but it still seems strange how useful it is for SpBe
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20:14:40 <DracoOmega> What passive effects?
20:14:46 <elliptic> berserk extension
20:14:54 <DracoOmega> That was taken away ages ago, no?
20:14:59 <mikee_> no?
20:14:59 <DracoOmega> I specifically remember that
20:16:06 <DracoOmega> Is my mind playing tricks on me?
20:16:59 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  you're thinking of the bonus against passing out
20:17:29 <DracoOmega> It's possible. Though I can't find even that commit now >.>
20:17:39 <|amethyst> %git d39ed37
20:17:39 <Cheibriados> MarvinPA * 0.9.0-a0-2-gd39ed37: Remove some special-cased bonuses for passing out after berserking (1 year, 4 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 9-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/d39ed3739412
20:18:04 <ChrisOelmueller> oh was that around the 'extend' removal
20:18:09 <|amethyst> the code for rage extension is in mon-stuff.cc, function monster_die()
20:18:57 <DracoOmega> Huh. For some reason I thought that all benefit the amulet could provide for Trog berserk went away at the same time
20:19:01 <DracoOmega> I guess not?
20:19:11 <elliptic> the amulet can also be used while silenced, btw
20:19:15 <elliptic> unlike trog berserk
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20:20:36 <elliptic> the amulet's extension boost is really tiny btw
20:20:52 <elliptic> 1.5 turns on 1/30 kills
20:21:09 <DracoOmega> Well, that bit I knew (the silence thing)
20:21:20 <DracoOmega> But that is more self-evident
20:21:54 <mikee_> does it just have to be a kill and not specifically a melee kill?
20:22:37 <elliptic> compare with trog's extension: 3.5ish turns on piety/1000 kills
20:22:59 <elliptic> mikee_: I think it just has to be a kill attributed to you
20:23:11 <DracoOmega> Yeah, that's like 10 times as strong or something
20:23:12 <mikee_> that's pretty interesting
20:23:28 <DracoOmega> Well, how do you kill things in other ways while berserking?
20:23:35 <mikee_> i can think of 5
20:23:42 <DracoOmega> 5?
20:23:42 <elliptic> clouds, poison
20:23:43 <ChrisOelmueller> inner flame them before killing the bomb
20:23:45 <mikee_> 5
20:23:47 <mikee_> five
20:23:52 <DracoOmega> Oh, I suppose
20:23:56 <DracoOmega> Stuff already in effect
20:24:07 <mikee_> devastator, summons, pain mirror
20:24:14 <elliptic> summons don't work
20:24:16 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: both of those can come into effect while you are already poisoned
20:24:19 <mikee_> oh good
20:24:25 <elliptic> I'm pretty sure
20:25:05 <DracoOmega> How would you create damaging clouds while berserk? Well, I suppose if you were a demonspawn. I guess there may be other ways?
20:25:17 <|amethyst> demonspawn was what I was thinking
20:25:30 <|amethyst> but also inner flame as ChrisOelmueller said
20:25:56 <mikee_> you can also passively confuse them with the jiyva special mutation
20:26:10 <mikee_> maybe extend berserk with a drowning kill!
20:26:15 <DracoOmega> Haha, perhaps!
20:26:17 <|amethyst> KILL_YOU_CONF doesn't count
20:26:21 <|amethyst> only KILL_YOU
20:26:22 <mikee_> oh :/
20:26:38 <|amethyst> hm
20:26:56 <|amethyst> wait, are clouds KILL_YOU?
20:27:06 <|amethyst> your clouds, that is
20:28:34 <|amethyst> ah, if I'm reading correctly, your clouds are KILL_YOU_MISSILE
20:29:02 <mikee_> kill code sounds delightful
20:29:23 <|amethyst> Gods still ignore cloud kills, don't they?
20:30:29 <|amethyst> oh, no
20:30:35 <|amethyst> I was thinking of something else
20:42:33 <CIA-23> 03elliptic * r87e4f79d6bde 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc player-act.cc): Allow berserk to lower you.hunger to HUNGER_STARVING - 100.
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21:35:38 <bmh> HangedMan: perhaps we should take the party here?
21:36:13 <HangedMan> no chance in the slightest to help you with OSX build issues on my part, so
21:36:25 <bmh> guess I can work on my vm
21:37:24 <bmh> ??crypt
21:37:24 <Henzell> crypt[1/5]: Accessed from the Vaults somewhere between levels 2 and 4. Five levels deep. No rune, but there is some swag to be found. THANKS BOBBENS FOR CRYPT VAULTS (but screw whoever made the mummy ending). Watch out for curse skulls, and the aforementioned vaults. Also be prepared to deal with an endless supply of skeletal warriors.
21:37:40 <bmh> Would it be wrong to put a crypt entrance in shoals?
21:37:57 <HangedMan> I would say yes
21:38:22 <bmh> because people wouldn't expect it? Or is there a deeper balance reason?
21:38:41 <DracoOmega> Well, because there's only a single entrance (unlike say that Lair Hell portal)
21:38:50 <DracoOmega> So it would be a first of its kind
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21:39:59 <HangedMan> it would be a ridiculously idiosyncratic effect and I can't even begin to imagine of the weird things it might produce
21:40:08 <HangedMan> and this is coming from mister abyss twister
21:40:22 <bmh> It seemed like a good idea!
21:40:54 <HangedMan> if you want to check every thing that happens because of it and make sure none of it breaks go ahead
21:41:29 <bmh> I'll settle for an undead pirates island in Shoals
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21:46:09 <bmh> C++ y u build so slow
21:47:10 <Thann> use scala then complain =P
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22:35:42 <Cheibriados> Tornado removes stop levitating ability (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5992) by pubby
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23:06:08 <Cheibriados> Visions of slaying the orb of destruction flood into your mind (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5993) by heftig
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23:11:57 <Gretell> Debian builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-3041-g87e4f79
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23:35:28 <Thann> |amethyst : do you have any thoughts on the latest AP menu patch?
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23:40:18 <|amethyst> Thann:  I get "Bad food type x6" whenever I toggle permafoods
23:40:35 <Thann> hmmm
23:41:05 <Thann> imma make clean gimme a min
23:41:29 <|amethyst> also, the name of _known_subtype() should still be changed
23:41:49 <Thann> ok
23:41:52 <|amethyst> and I think I'd prefer something less jargony than "permafoods", but not sure what
23:42:04 <Thann> i fee the same way
23:42:31 <|amethyst> "other food" maybe, or even just "food" (assuming it comes after "chunks")
23:42:36 <monqy> nonperishable?
23:43:14 <|amethyst> hm... still not ideal IMO, but better than "other food"
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23:44:58 <|amethyst> I think I'd prefer "imperishable" to "nonperishable"
23:45:23 <|amethyst> but that still might be too sesquipedalian
23:45:30 <Grunt> I've never heard non-perishables called imperishables.
23:45:58 <Thann> lol
23:46:14 <Thann> well said |amythyst
23:46:23 <|amethyst> hm... I guess "nonperishable" or "non-perishable" is more common according to google
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23:48:47 <|amethyst> though whoever decided fruit is permafood has clearly never kept strawberries in the fridge for more than a few days
23:48:50 <|amethyst> :P
23:49:17 <Thann> maybe an ice mage could keep them around for a while
23:50:24 <ChrisOelmueller> the ozo wizlab should definitely have fruit around yeah
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