00:01:42 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2563-gdfd62d9 (33)
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00:11:55 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2563-gdfd62d9
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05:00:02 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2563-gdfd62d9
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07:33:23 <CIA-50> 03galehar * rf47f74f36851 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-util.cc): Revert scaling of mimics with depth.
07:36:04 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r42308057973d 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: In webtiles, assert that the locale uses UTF-8.
07:36:05 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * rb7427c46e5f0 10/crawl-ref/source/tileweb.cc: vsnprintf() returns an int.
07:36:06 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * rbeb930d8f612 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Add an assertion so wrong-place errors are not so cryptic.
07:36:06 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r521bc6d52b7e 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Fix a crash in Slime builder.
07:36:07 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r20dbf9e191f0 10/crawl-ref/source/stairs.cc: Remove an obsolete comment.
07:36:07 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * rfbb6a271b1d6 10/crawl-ref/source/stairs.cc: Fix a crash on &u
07:36:07 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r2c6082727f9a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/randname.txt: Drop two unfitting gem names (for foo-encrusted randarts), add pearl.
07:36:08 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r66a5fb13b4d4 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/randname.txt: Drop see-through robes.
07:36:18 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r99ce6cad1923 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/randname.txt: Drop Cheibriados' randart names -- ponderousification is no more.
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07:46:17 <Keskitalo> Some of the dynamic hints in tutorial are really good, like the one about autopickup for thrown ammo.
07:46:41 <Keskitalo> Level up and skill ones were found to be spammy and taking away from the actual tutorial lessons..
07:48:38 <Keskitalo> I'm wondering about sneaking autofight into Lesson 2.
07:51:34 <galehar> it would be nice to have a real lesson on skill training, but I'm not sure how to do it
08:13:55 <Keskitalo> aye
08:14:07 <Keskitalo> Perhaps leave it for hints mode for now
08:14:55 <Keskitalo> jpeg did a really good job improving the tutorial 0.7, although it did end up containing a little too much stuff
08:15:14 <Keskitalo> I've really started to appreacite her work while doing these edits :)
08:17:51 <Keskitalo> that said these edits do cut a lot of stuff, especially maps
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08:18:59 <Keskitalo> her stuff is nicer than the KiSS team's, but the latter's maps are more compact and flow better (imo) because of being shorter, I'll try to combine the two when I can..
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08:36:02 <Keskitalo> Not sure my own additions are that great, I feel like I'm cutting stuff, and then just cramming more stuff in :)
08:36:18 <Keskitalo> But let's see once I finish the lesson 2.. for once, I've actually felt inspired to do this :D
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09:00:29 <alefury> kilobyte: any comments on my patch?
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09:16:59 <galehar> kilobyte: about #5856 (exploration of shoals), exploring all shallow water is what made it loop endlessly
09:17:31 <galehar> it tries to reach one at the other end of the map, but by the time you reach it, tide has risen and it's now deep
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10:41:27 <twelwe> The daeva calls down the wrath of Xom upon you.
10:41:37 <twelwe> Is this normal in the abyss?
10:41:38 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2573-g99ce6ca (33)
10:41:51 <Patashu> some angels worship xom
10:42:17 <Patashu> I forget why exactly, the rationale is explained if you grep the code for it though
10:42:21 <twelwe> the description overtly says "a divine agent of the shining one"
10:42:23 <BlastHardcheese> daevas in the abyss isn't normal, but on xom it is
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10:45:53 <twelwe> I don't understand the purpose of that, it was still a regular smite attack, does a daeva worshiping xom have any other effect aside from flavor?
10:46:59 <Patashu> won't be converted to you by worshipping the good gods?
10:47:09 <Patashu> that's about all I can think of, atm monster god worship doesn't change much but in the future it may have more effect
10:47:47 <Grunt> Perhaps Xom smiting -> Xom wrath on target?
10:47:47 <Grunt> <_<
10:48:10 <Patashu> lol
10:48:17 <twelwe> there was no god wrath when it died
10:48:29 <twelwe> at least, none was mentioned
10:49:06 <Grunt> ...and if you kill a Xom worsh-- er, toy, and you follow Xom yourself, Xom roars with laughter!
10:49:09 <Grunt> :D
10:49:19 <Grunt> (Subject to the usual entertainment conditions, of course.)
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10:56:20 <kilobyte> Xom lifesaving...
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11:05:50 <Grunt> "Hey! Quit breaking my other toys!" Xom revives the Angel!
11:08:21 <CIA-50> 03galehar 07constriction * rf6003b1021d9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Move handle_noattack_constrictions to actor.cc
11:08:22 <CIA-50> 03galehar 07constriction * r4ecefafd3fff 10/crawl-ref/ (19 files in 6 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into constriction
11:08:22 <CIA-50> 03galehar 07constriction * r11c30b6183c9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.cc mon-data.h monster.cc monster.h): Get base constriction damage from the attack damage instead of HD.
11:08:22 <CIA-50> 03galehar 07constriction * rd8979f0e4bd8 10/crawl-ref/source/actor.cc: Change the constriction damage formula.
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13:06:08 * Grunt finishes making some tweaks to a couple of previously submitted patches...
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14:43:46 * Grunt makes his interesting issue discovery of the moment and submits a patch...
14:45:25 <Cheibriados> Allow items defined in monster specifications to respect plus: and plus2: tags (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5860) by sgrunt
14:46:17 <Keskitalo> Nice!
14:47:35 <Grunt> Well, I've been wondering about that since some test fights over in ##crawl didn't seem to be assigning the right item properties.
14:47:38 <Grunt> I can't remember the context.
14:47:55 <Grunt> It came up again while I was testing something else just now, though. :p
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15:42:00 <Cheibriados> New branch created: webtiles-unicode (1 commit)
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15:44:25 <edlothiol> kilobyte: mind taking a look at https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/e973b534b75eec07712764b36bd25bd16153bcbc ?
15:45:05 <edlothiol> it at least seems to work with CJK and combining characters
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16:06:46 <Grunt> Hmm, I'm seriously tempted to start working on empowering monsters with god abilities.
16:07:04 <Grunt> (i.e. ones that aren't normally in their spellbooks)
16:07:12 <Grunt> That would be pretty long term work, though.
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16:13:34 <Grunt> (The spriggan draws a card... It is the Hammer.  The crystal spear hits you!  Ouch! That really hurt!  You die...)
16:13:55 <Zannick> uhhhhh
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16:27:44 <kilobyte> Grunt: legendary Orb card
16:28:57 <kilobyte> the mostest overpoweredest thing currently, balanced only by the fact that you need an open area, and that if the monster advances, most orbs will fly around randomly, likely to go out of range and/or hit you
16:29:28 <Grunt> kilobyte, "blown up by" :D
16:29:59 <kilobyte> as advancing is the thing monsters do, for some speeds you get as much as four orbs hitting you back :)
16:31:31 <kilobyte> emptying a legendary deck of summoning is sure death unless the opponent teleports away, too
16:31:55 <kilobyte> monster use of decks is probably out of question :(
16:32:15 <kilobyte> pghosts with god abilities could be cool, though
16:32:49 <kilobyte> Makhleb's summons would need a massive cooldown, same for Trog
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16:35:32 <kilobyte> hrm, screw that... Lugonu means banishment on D:3 and corruption, Trog can't berserk (ghost), Sif/Vehu do nothing, Nemelex is decks only, Oka would give a big but boring melee boost, Fedhas would one-shot ghoul players and do nothing good otherwise...
16:35:35 <elliptic> I always thought it made sense that pghosts don't have god abilities... the gods shouldn't care about ghosts enough to grant them powers, since they already *failed* in their mission to get the orb
16:36:12 <kilobyte> Chei is potentially cool, but that's more for an unique
16:36:33 <elliptic> a character's last interaction with their god should be the death message (<3 Nemelex's death message, for instance)
16:36:49 <kilobyte> elliptic: yeah, mostly for balance reasons, but let's keep it this way
16:37:21 <kilobyte> hmm, should Neme do that to felids on non-final deaths?
16:37:24 <elliptic> the balance reasons are also good; I'm just saying that I never saw anything strange with ghosts not having religion
16:37:35 <kilobyte> yeah
16:37:43 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  likewise yred and felids
16:37:47 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  friendly zombie
16:38:06 <kilobyte> a bit inconsistent that TSOites/Zinnites/Evilyonites lose religion then
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16:38:30 <kilobyte> if it's a past thing for everyone
16:38:35 <|amethyst> TSO considers player ghosts evil, right?
16:38:42 <|amethyst> maybe he should block creation of a ghost
16:38:47 <elliptic> lose religion? is this just some text somewhere?
16:39:08 <kilobyte> I guess, ghost religion should not use monster.god but a prop then
16:39:41 <kilobyte> elliptic: ghosts have some religion-dependant speech lines
16:40:03 <kilobyte> there's a lot written but I think it's not used at all right now
16:40:05 <elliptic> well, surely TSO characters can still have TSO-related speech after dying
16:40:14 <elliptic> even if TSO hates the ghost
16:42:35 <|amethyst> note that ghosts already have some religion-related lines
16:42:39 <|amethyst> for Invo ghosts:
16:42:46 <|amethyst> @The_monster@ says, "Bah, the gods are useless!"
16:42:52 <|amethyst> @The_monster@ curses the gods.
16:42:54 <|amethyst> VISUAL SPELL:@The_monster@ prays.
16:43:01 <|amethyst> (not exactly consistent)
16:43:15 <kilobyte> could keep the title for TSO ghosts
16:43:26 <|amethyst> make TSO ghosts As
16:43:27 <kilobyte> instead of giving them "Apostate"
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16:43:45 <kilobyte> @??spirit
16:43:45 <Gretell> spirit (08p) | Spd: 4 | Int: normal | HD: 7 | HP: 39-65 | AC/EV: 3/19 | 08holy, 10doors, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(37), 03poison, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 66 | Sp: blink away.
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17:09:23 <alefury> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5008
17:09:38 <alefury> pretty long post, but seems like the guy is working on vaults layouts in earnest
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17:11:10 <Grunt> Ooh, snazzy.
17:13:30 <alefury> yeah, he seems to know what hes doing too
17:14:07 <alefury> no idea if he can translate what hes doing to lua, though
17:14:45 <alefury> or whatever else is used for level layouts, afaik level generation is kind of complicated
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17:15:04 <alefury> it would be nice for someone who knows about that stuff to reply
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17:18:42 <Grunt> Well, infiniplex was the one responsible for the loops layouts, IIRC.
17:19:12 <Grunt> (Yes, I do recall correctly.)
17:19:18 <Grunt> So if anyone can pull it off, he'd be high on the list. :)
17:19:28 <elliptic> loops layouts?
17:19:35 <Grunt> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5782
17:19:57 <Zannick> i like how he consistently misspelled mumra's name
17:21:21 <Grunt> I don't really think what he's proposing would require very much in the way of Lua, actually.
17:21:39 <elliptic> cool, I had missed those new layouts being added
17:22:19 <alefury> me too
17:22:34 <alefury> oh, pretty recent
17:28:20 <clouded_> I'm not really fond of his and mumra's ring type levels, they feel too static
17:29:13 <alefury> what do you mean? all crawl levels but shoals are static
17:29:57 <elliptic> one issue with ring type levels is that you know a lot of the map from just seeing a little bit of it
17:30:17 <clouded_> I mean it's something I could theoretically make as an encompass vault
17:30:29 <clouded_> and it would be about the same
17:30:48 <alefury> ah
17:32:08 <alefury> elliptic: in the tavern thread i suggested using the same (randomly chosen) layout for all of vaults in each game. I think in this case it would be interesting that you already have a lot of information about the levels after playing the first one. It's pretty cool in tomb IMO, but very spoilery.
17:33:09 <elliptic> alefury: the number of games that see vaults is far, far larger than the number of games that see tomb
17:33:21 <elliptic> it shouldn't be too predictable
17:34:00 <alefury> well yes, but with 5 or so layouts to choose from, and a version with random layouts for each level, it would be unpredictable enough IMO.
17:34:22 <alefury> of course you could check the first level, then know what to expect
17:34:23 <elliptic> I guess I don't really know how predictable you are suggesting it be
17:34:39 <clouded_> also why using subvaults is sort of bad
17:35:05 <alefury> im suggesting to use a single random layout for all of vaults, instead of randomly choosing one for each level, so there is some cohesive feel to the branch.
17:35:17 <elliptic> but what is "a single random layout"?
17:35:30 <alefury> maybe actually look at the tavern post?
17:35:37 <alefury> its not so bad
17:35:46 <elliptic> I looked at it and I still don't really know what you mean
17:35:59 <alefury> theres a list with 5 or so layouts hes planning to implement
17:36:12 <elliptic> yes, and I have no idea how static they are
17:36:30 <elliptic> aside from the pictures of the ring levels, which looked rather fixed
17:36:39 <alefury> he already wrote the ring one, there are several examples at the bottom. i agree these could vary a bit more
17:36:59 <alefury> s/could/should
17:37:08 <elliptic> what I am saying is that "a single random layout" can mean a lot of different things
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17:38:29 <alefury> evilmike: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5008 :)
17:39:02 <evilmike> cool
17:39:02 <Henzell> evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
17:41:27 <alefury> elliptic: true i guess. I think the branch should feel cohesive, and corridors + rooms arranged in a multitude of different ways would not be.
17:42:28 <evilmike> judging by the other layouts infiniplex has made, he should make it pretty easy to tweak, if there are any design issues
17:42:36 <alefury> note that most branches currently using a single (usually fairly variable) layout, only D and pan tend to switch it up a bit
17:45:56 <alefury> evilmike: he wants to vary some stuff with depth, so at least that stuff will definitely be easily tunable
17:46:07 <evilmike> check out layout_loops.des
17:46:27 <kilobyte> a bunch of D layouts are incredibly boring
17:46:41 <kilobyte> s/boring/overused/
17:46:48 <alefury> roguey?
17:46:58 <evilmike> I would like layout_roguey to be less common
17:47:00 <kilobyte> yeah, the biggest offender
17:47:04 <alefury> or whatever that one with the rooms and doors is called
17:47:04 <evilmike> I don't think roguey levels are bad, but they are very same-y
17:47:08 <evilmike> yeah thats the one
17:47:34 <kilobyte> also, what about disabling a good part of layouts in Pan, to give it a feeling distinct from D?
17:48:02 <kilobyte> and Zot, for that matter
17:48:43 <evilmike> zot is restricted to 1 layout anyway
17:48:51 <evilmike> every level has a primary vault because of the weird way it colours levels
17:48:53 <alefury> might be good, but note that if you go to pan you tend to spend a lot of time there, so please dont make it more boring
17:50:02 <kilobyte> for that tavern post: the guy has good ideas, but suffers greatly by taking an incredibly bad idea from the wiki as scripture
17:50:32 <alefury> maybe you should tell him which ideas you consider bad. if you absolutely cant post on the tavern, maybe comment on the wiki page?
17:51:04 <kilobyte> I'm on the phone right now, so I can't post even if I wanted
17:51:25 <alefury> i meant when/if you have time of course :P
17:52:46 <kilobyte> and a good part of my home is packed up...  electricians were in today, replacing wiring from 1938.  Holes in the walls need to be covered, etc, before I can get back to work on Crawl not doable from a N900 :p
17:53:11 <alefury> sorry if i sounded pushy, but the guy specifically asked whether there are any major problems with what hes doing, and mentioned that he would rather know about them sooner than later
17:53:53 <kilobyte> could you tell him that at least according to me that wiki post sucks balls, and he should do what he thinks is right, not what is written there
17:54:11 <alefury> sure :)
17:54:24 <kilobyte> thanks!
17:54:31 <alefury> i guess i can point him at the chat log and ##crawl-dev in general too
17:54:34 <evilmike> regarding layouts, would it be feasable to make it so if a level has a primary vault, more layouts are available?
17:54:52 <evilmike> I think this is part of what contributes to some layouts feeling overused
17:55:07 <kilobyte> evilmike: yeah... many layouts can't work with a non-empty map, though
17:55:18 <evilmike> the other is layout_roguey, which I'm just going to go ahead and lower the weight of, unless someone speaks out
17:55:28 <kilobyte> most, even
17:55:55 <evilmike> well, even if most aren't going to work, "a few" is still better than "only one"
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17:56:05 <kilobyte> of course!
17:56:49 <clouded_> I think for a brief time the vaults layout thing was free for anything, but it ended in weird looking things like elf:5 being a hex level
17:57:15 <evilmike> we could just restrict the available layouts for elf
17:57:32 <evilmike> keep it to corridor-heavy ones
17:57:37 <evilmike> it's the elven halls, not the elven octagon rooms
17:57:51 <clouded_> elven eel aquariums
17:58:11 <clouded_> though I don't think I've actually seen that for a few versions
17:58:31 <evilmike> oh, I thought you were talking about the 0.11 serial vault (haven't seen that one with eels though)
17:58:45 <kilobyte> I have a bunch of layout ideas, but no time right now with 0.11 coming
17:59:43 <kilobyte> for example, doing layouts on a triangle with wrapped two sides, then projecting the result onto radial coordinates
18:00:25 <kilobyte> effect: mostly circular corridors, converging towards the middle
18:00:47 <kilobyte> err, that sentence made no sense, but I hope you guess what I mean
18:01:39 <kilobyte> corridors that were perpendicular in the original layout end either being polar or radial: parts of circles or lines going through the center
18:03:09 <alefury> oh damn. this can be done with arbitrary coordinate systems
18:03:29 <alefury> there arent that many interesting ones though, especially in 2d
18:03:36 <Zannick> so layouts projects on a cone, then flattened?
18:03:48 <ghallberg> Oh god my head.
18:03:51 <ghallberg> Geometry >.<
18:03:53 <Zannick> projected *
18:06:22 <CIA-50> 03evilmike * r7fd43ee287bd 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Reduce the weight of layout_roguey.
18:07:03 <alefury> hooray!
18:07:07 <evilmike> another thing to think about would be making layouts more branch-specific. I would keep a big selection for pan (because it's long), but for short branches it's ok to be more limited
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18:08:09 <alefury> i always thought most branches are limited to a single layout
18:08:47 <alefury> lair has a few, but feels distinct and pretty great
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18:09:01 <evilmike> Lair actually has a large selection, but it does this "ruination" thing which makes it feel unique
18:09:48 <evilmike> I believe Dis is limited to one layout, and Zot is as well (this one might be unintentional)
18:10:04 <evilmike> I think Vaults allows two, but one is more common than the other and they both look similar
18:10:32 <alefury> the ring layout feels a bit out of place in lair imo, other than that i havent noticed any i didnt like
18:10:49 <evilmike> and then there's Swamp, Spider, and Shoals which each get their own unique layouts, of course
18:11:20 <alefury> same for orc, slime and tomb
18:11:35 <evilmike> Tomb just uses vaults, it doesn't really count :P
18:11:45 <alefury> :)
18:12:06 <evilmike> orc and slime use the same one, but slime makes the walls acidic
18:12:08 <alefury> orc and slime are pretty similar, but do feel distinct due to the slime walls
18:12:52 <alefury> doesnt change the look much, but its tactially a very different situation (also due to the monster set and the time when you usually do the branch)
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18:17:45 <kilobyte> Spider has a layout algorithm with an incredible potential
18:18:02 <G-Flex> Tomb is weird
18:18:11 <alefury> yeah, like that crystal corridor, right?
18:18:41 <kilobyte> me and dpeg chose a small range of delve settings that fit Spider, but other uses include the crystal corridor or a Bazaar generator
18:19:28 <kilobyte> G-Flex: Tomb has no generator at all, just a single static set of encompass vaults
18:19:51 <G-Flex> I know, that's why it's weird, it's so static compared to any other branch
18:20:09 <alefury> heh, i remember a very short discussion about how to change tomb, it went something like this:
18:20:54 <alefury> A: with all this talk about changing branches, should we maybe add a second set of tomb levels? B: hm. would be good. one problem: the current levels are super awesome, it would be hard to come close to that.
18:21:13 <Zannick> could make tomb use subvaults to randomize things a little more without axing the general style
18:22:37 <alefury> well, the levels can be swapped out independently with some care
18:23:15 <G-Flex> tomb in that sense feels very uncrawl
18:23:23 <evilmike> I'd really only change 2 things about tomb. One is make stealth more like it used to be (stuff wakes up too easily now), the other is shorten (or remove) the big loop part in tomb:1
18:23:28 <alefury> i actually really like that, it adds variety
18:23:43 <G-Flex> I've only been through the loop part maybe once
18:23:52 <G-Flex> it's easy to use the tele traps in tomb:2 to bypass it entirely
18:23:56 <evilmike> I think it's cool having a mostly-fixed branch like that, yeah
18:24:21 <evilmike> it's ultra-hard, but you can compensate by having a good plan for all the hard parts
18:24:38 <alefury> really spoilery, too
18:24:49 <alefury> i dont mind, though
18:25:27 <evilmike> I don't see it as any more spoilery than most branch endings, portal vaults, pan lord levels, etc
18:25:52 <alefury> those all have some variety
18:26:04 <kilobyte> what about removing the "ambient noise" concept altogether?
18:26:10 <evilmike> kilobyte: good idea imo
18:26:12 <alefury> yes please
18:26:21 <evilmike> it doesn't add anything to the game except complexity
18:26:24 <eeviac_> what's the intended functionality of the ignore = rc option? It doesn't seem to be cutting down on air elemental message spam.
18:26:35 <evilmike> and it's not even complexity that players notice, until it's pointed out to them
18:27:52 <alefury> evilmike: re spoilery, i mean it gets *a lot* easier the second time you do it, and *a lot* easier than that on the third time. of course it starts out being nearly impossible to do, and ends up at pretty hard, but its a bigger difference than for most other branches
18:28:35 <evilmike> alefury: maybe. I cleared it on my first attempt. My only splat there was when I was too comfortable with the branch, and got careless :P
18:28:36 <alefury> eeviac_: do you maybe want mute?
18:28:45 <alefury> i think ignore is for autoexplore
18:28:51 <eeviac_> oooooh
18:28:54 <eeviac_> that makes sense
18:28:56 <eeviac_> I'll try it
18:29:08 <alefury> look at some example, also it matters where you put the lines
18:29:41 <eeviac_> 'where', as in within the rc file?
18:29:56 <alefury> yes, needs to either be before or after some include
18:30:02 <alefury> theres a comment in the default rcfile about it
18:30:31 <alefury> evilmike: thats always a problem i suppose :)
18:31:04 <alefury> also its usually pretty easy to retreat
18:31:12 <elliptic> ambient noise being different is pretty noticeable in crypt
18:31:35 <elliptic> and I sort of like that, makes crypt a bit more interesting
18:31:47 <elliptic> aside from that it is impossible to notice a difference though
18:32:04 <alefury> i think low ambient noise is a bit more interesting than high noise at least
18:32:05 <evilmike> it's not really communicated to the player, either
18:32:08 <alefury> hive was so dumb
18:32:29 <evilmike> I think a new player who notices stuff waking up in Crypt would be more likely to think undead monsters (somehow) are better at detecting you
18:32:56 <alefury> maybe a message could be printed when ambient noise changes
18:33:01 <elliptic> evilmike: could be a message when you enter crypt about how quiet it is
18:33:17 <evilmike> that would be enough, yeah
18:33:25 <elliptic> (and another one when you leave)
18:33:59 <clouded_> the thing about the noise is that it alters the way vaults play, when they aren't designed for it
18:34:04 <evilmike> as for Tomb, st_ sometimes complains that it's not as fun since the noise changes, and I think he could be right about that
18:34:09 <clouded_> like the old crypt ends
18:34:22 <evilmike> yeah, that's a problem too
18:35:00 <elliptic> I think the crypt ends work fine with the current noise
18:35:15 <evilmike> it helps that doors block noise, and that monsters can be given patrolling
18:35:23 <elliptic> it was only really a problem several versions ago
18:36:33 <eeviac_> where can I find the rc option file documention? I'm not getting this to work
18:36:46 <elliptic> with Tomb, I don't really find it less fun now, but I do think it is harder
18:37:12 <elliptic> possibly it made stairscumming more important?
18:37:52 <evilmike> stair dancing, and projected noise abuse
18:38:11 <alefury> !rc MarvinPA
18:38:13 <Henzell> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/crawl-0.10/MarvinPA.rc
18:38:19 <alefury> thats the rc file documentation :P
18:38:30 <elliptic> evilmike: projected noise would work regardless...
18:38:52 <evilmike> true, I don't remember people using it as much in the past though. Maybe I spectate jeanjacques too much
18:39:10 <elliptic> what version were the ambient noise changes in?
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18:39:43 <evilmike> 0.8
18:40:03 <alefury> evilmike: if most monsters come to you at the same time, ways to prevent that become more useful
18:40:13 <evilmike> it was added in 6c38fdb
18:40:16 <elliptic> I think 0.8-a was when I started to popularize projected noise
18:40:24 <elliptic> speaking of projected noise we really should remove it :P
18:40:31 <dtsund> What did the "demons" branch do?
18:40:41 <evilmike> make projected noise a property of scrolls of noise
18:40:52 <alefury> its merged now, it had changed demon tiers, and i think abjuration changes
18:40:59 <elliptic> dtsund: changed a lot of miscellaneous things about demons
18:40:59 <alefury> the single target/mass split
18:41:04 <evilmike> it also added blizzard demons, I think
18:41:09 <alefury> yeah
18:41:31 <elliptic> some name changes, some spellset changes, tier changes, abjuration split, monsters summoning fewer monsters
18:42:25 <elliptic> this includes stuff like buffing reapers a lot
18:42:47 <dtsund> Looks like the diff2s are the ones I want.
18:43:18 <elliptic> evilmike: I don't think the projected noise effect is interesting enough in normal play and small quantities to put it on a scroll
18:43:18 <evilmike> btw, I notice that crawl light spawns an abyss portal when you pick up the abyssal rune now. this seems like something that would be nice in DCSS
18:43:45 <evilmike> elliptic: yeah I suppose so. I've only played with the spell once, and it seems like something you have to spam
18:43:47 * dtsund has to merge changes by hand; git-cherry-pick and patch(1) have stopped working
18:44:34 <dtsund> evilmike: I'd like to eventually have all runes have some noticeable (though perhaps not serious) effect on their home branches when taken
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18:46:41 <evilmike> I like what you did with the abyssal rune, because in my opinion, searching for a portal after finding it is anticlimactic
18:48:01 <elliptic> evilmike: that's probably true now that it usually comes in a vault
18:48:53 <elliptic> finding the rune lying in some random part of the abyss doesn't say much about your ability to escape with it, though
18:49:44 <MarvinPA> eeviac_: docs/options_guide.txt
18:50:08 <eeviac_> does that file explain what mute is supposed to do
18:50:22 <eeviac_> I'm copying your rc file but I still see air elemental spam after spam
18:50:24 <evilmike> a similar solution could be to place exit portals in abyssal rune vaults
18:50:25 <MarvinPA> well it's supposed to mute things
18:50:31 <MarvinPA> that may not be the same as what it actually does
18:50:43 <galehar> would anyone shout at me if I make constriction a normal attack with the normal to hit, dodge, block, etc..., and put the code in a final_effect?
18:50:44 <MarvinPA> i think it may have been broken by messaging changes
18:51:00 <MarvinPA> crawl seems to be picky/inconsistent/wrong about capitalisation in rc stuff now
18:51:17 <MarvinPA> possibly that broke the mutes, i know it definitely broke other things
18:51:22 <|amethyst> those regexps should probably all be made case-insensitive
18:51:22 <eeviac_> I'm copying the form/merge message exactly, with punctuation, and I still see it
18:51:30 <kilobyte> galehar: yes, I'd shout stuff like "good idea"
18:51:31 <|amethyst> eeviac_:  well
18:51:34 <MarvinPA> yes, if you copy them then it's probably broken :P
18:51:40 <MarvinPA> since it doesn't work for me either
18:51:43 <elliptic> galehar: that sounds great
18:51:53 <|amethyst> it depends on whether the first word was capitalised in the original literal, or if mpr auto-capitalised it
18:52:07 <|amethyst> it seems that the check is done before the auto-capitalisation
18:52:07 <eeviac_> so maybe I try an instead of An
18:52:12 <galehar> MarvinPA: we should make the thing just case insensitive
18:52:17 <MarvinPA> that sounds good, yeah
18:52:28 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: mostly my fault, that auto-capitalization simplified code somewhat but causes inconsistencies
18:53:00 <eeviac_> didn't work
18:53:02 <kilobyte> I'm pondering removing it, but only after all regular mpr()s get translation support
18:54:30 <alefury> good night
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18:54:47 <galehar> funny that the only thing that prevents an octopode from constricting more that 8 monsters is the grid
18:55:20 <galehar> has_usable_tentacles doesn't actually count
18:55:28 <galehar> anyway, bed for me too
18:56:12 <kilobyte> could simplify that away then
18:57:22 <Eronarn> that sounds like a bug waiting to happen with reaching
18:58:52 <eeviac_> I'm going to report the broken mute thing
18:59:27 <clouded_> I reported it a long time ago
18:59:35 <eeviac_> ok, nevermind then
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19:13:32 <|amethyst> st_:  reopened
19:13:52 <|amethyst> %bug 4945
19:13:52 <Cheibriados> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4945
19:14:51 <|amethyst> I should really make Chei learn/store all the bug metadata (or at least all that's in the RSS)
19:15:03 <|amethyst> it would be nice if the RSS contained the bug status
19:15:10 <|amethyst> then Chei could report when bugs are closed
19:22:16 <Dixie> Can't find the etymology for "damnit". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=damnit
19:22:21 <Dixie> sorry misclick
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19:41:25 <eeviac_> warding doesn't seem to work against hostile summoned elementals. I have two pieces of MR gear on. Is this intended behavior?
19:43:52 <hangedman> evilmike, would some unobtrusive, simple mini_features vaults using teleporters be acceptable? They're starting to be used in quite a few complex vaults, and I think some simple pairs across D might help non-trunk/new players get more used to them
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19:44:18 <hangedman> elementals are all magic-immune
19:44:29 <eeviac_> oh it means THEIR mr
19:44:34 <eeviac_> not mine
19:44:35 <eeviac_> ok
19:45:16 <phunktion> morning all
19:45:36 <hangedman> evening
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20:28:14 <evilmike> !tell hangedman by "quite a few complex vaults" you mean five vaults, with one of them being a sprint map. I would rather keep them uncommon
20:28:14 <Henzell> evilmike: OK, I'll let hangedman know.
20:28:30 <evilmike> !tell hangedman and that's not five new vaults, that's five vaults in all of DCSS
20:28:31 <Henzell> evilmike: OK, I'll let hangedman know.
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22:44:30 <Cheibriados> Elemental staves depend on Evocations, but don't allow training it (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5861) by josh
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22:50:26 * Grunt finish working some Lua black magic.
22:50:30 <Grunt> s/finish/finishes/
22:51:10 <Grunt> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=66907#p66907
22:51:34 <Grunt> Hmm... has anyone ever had an excuse to use nested subvaults before?
22:51:37 <Grunt> (Probably. <_<)
22:51:58 <|amethyst> zot:5 used nested subvaults for a while
22:52:11 <evilmike> actually, the initial implementation of subvaults did that
22:52:21 <evilmike> (there's a Vault:8 quandrant with subvaults-within-subvaults)
22:52:40 <|amethyst> oh, right
22:52:47 <Grunt> Oh, right, I remember that vault.
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23:49:58 <Grunt> ...well, I've managed to confuse the game enough with my latest trickery to make it think I'm trying to place wax walls. o_o
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23:55:44 <Gretell> JFunk (L12 TrBe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,48) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef))
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