00:01:02 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2547-g780937c (33)
00:08:10 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2547-g780937c
00:33:47 <phunktion> US based webtiles server is up for testing: http://crawus.somatika.net:8080
00:37:23 <phunktion> http://crawlus.somatika.net even
00:49:27 <evilmike> just played a short game on there. Goes way faster than the other servers, for me
00:51:04 <phunktion> great :)
00:51:11 <phunktion> zot sprint? nice
00:51:31 <phunktion> latency? are you westcoast/eastcoast?
00:54:56 <evilmike> west coast
00:55:09 <evilmike> 50 ms ping
00:57:22 <phunktion> awesome
00:57:28 <phunktion> it's in nevada as far as i know hehe
00:57:29 <evilmike> I normally find webtiles hard to play because of lag. It's not a problem on your server though
00:57:45 <phunktion> yeah it's hugely latency dependant due to having to process almost everything server-side
00:57:51 <phunktion> not much to do about that
00:58:04 <phunktion> short of porting the whole thing to JS or something :S
01:00:01 <evilmike> it does feel a bit slower than what I'm used to (cao console) but it's not distracting
01:01:01 <phunktion> i think the console version would have a little less to serve up to the client each turn so that may be the case
01:01:20 <phunktion> i'm still keen to setup a console client on the servers but would need a little guidance
01:09:19 <evilmike> seems to be a bug with the monster list
01:09:30 <evilmike> (take a look at my screen)
01:11:07 <phunktion> ah i see
01:11:09 <phunktion> hmm
01:11:16 <phunktion> same on another game too
01:11:26 <phunktion> might be to do with the panel layout config?
01:12:01 <phunktion> i've got to run off for a few hours (though might be online via phone)
01:12:13 <phunktion> pm me any bugs/faults you encounter :)
01:12:15 <evilmike> I'm not sure, I got a screenshot of it though, I'll just post a bug report
01:12:44 <phunktion> seems to be working on the other server which is the same trunk
01:13:03 <evilmike> hm, ok
01:13:07 <phunktion> actually it's working in my game, what are you seeing?
01:13:13 <evilmike> it's gone now
01:13:25 <phunktion> well, i'll make a note
01:13:43 <phunktion> possibly it was taking a while to load tiles if they were new monsters
01:13:57 <evilmike> hmm yeah
01:14:11 <evilmike> I just saw two deep dwarves as weapons turn into zombies, on the monster list
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01:17:43 <evilmike> "2 Joseph"
01:19:15 <|amethyst> !tell galehar  I'd like to get it compiling at least before I push... I'll shoot for tomorrow
01:19:15 <Henzell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let galehar know.
01:19:19 <phunktion> can you note stuff like that in a query so i don't lose it in the general chat while im away?
01:19:40 <monqy> I've seen something similar in spectating webtiles games, in which a dead elf stayed on the monster list as a weapon I think it was
01:20:14 <monqy> I mean on the cdo webtiles server
01:20:29 <evilmike> phunktion: if I see any more weirdness I'll tell you, sure. This monster list thing is pretty consistent so I won't bug you if it's just that
01:21:08 <phunktion> bug away :) need to sync up with edthiol on here as he makes commits to webtiles frequently
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05:00:02 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2547-g780937c
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05:43:58 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte 07lighting-rod * r6b1a93f77189 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/items.txt: Reword the lightning rod description somehow.
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06:44:30 <CIA-50> 03edlothiol * r298f1c0569cc 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/game_data/static/cell_renderer.js: Fix CHATTR_HILITE (for example for stab brands) not working in webtiles glyph mode.
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11:00:04 <edlothiol> kilobyte: tileweb-text.cc:181 currently fails if the locale isn't using utf8. is there a way to force it to use utf8? or should we require a utf8 locale for webtiles servers?
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11:43:16 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2548-g298f1c0 (33)
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12:45:01 <kilobyte> edlothiol: forcing a locale is not doable in general, on Debian since wheezy there's guaranteed C.UTF-8 locale.
12:45:42 <kilobyte> no sane Unix uses anything but UTF-8 these days, and it's server not user configuration
12:46:24 <edlothiol> ok
12:46:47 <kilobyte> on the other hand, if you want webtiles to ever be served from a Windows machine, it's possible to change this to use our own functions
12:47:28 <kilobyte> wait, that idea of a local webtiles server... this could actually bw useful
12:47:40 <edlothiol> phunktion's server apparently had no locale set
12:48:15 <edlothiol> at least in the webtiles server's environment
12:48:41 <edlothiol> (don't know how that happened)
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12:50:07 <kilobyte> could make it assert and die in that case
12:50:56 <kilobyte> tiles.write_message() expects UTF-8 or 16?
12:51:52 <kilobyte> I see it taking regular strings everywhere
12:52:28 <edlothiol> yes, at that point everything should be utf-8 encoded
12:53:25 <edlothiol> the text area handling does %ls formatting with a wstring
12:53:50 <edlothiol> which I unthinkingly assumed would be utf8, but of course is dependent on the locale
12:56:02 <|amethyst> a monster struggling but failing to escape constriction should take _swim_or_move_energy ?
12:56:09 <kilobyte> on any sane Unix system, it is
12:56:25 <kilobyte> |amethyst: sounds sane, yeah
12:57:10 <kilobyte> edlothiol: ah, now I see: you prepare the text in memory as an array of wchars
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12:57:47 <kilobyte> this will break if there are CJK or combining characters involved
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13:01:19 <kilobyte> uhm, a problem: wcharstream does not work as expected on Windows
13:02:12 <kilobyte> it assumes UCS-16 rather than UTF-16 or raw Unicode (ie, UTF-32)
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13:05:18 <edlothiol> I don't like the use of wstringstream there, anyway
13:05:59 <edlothiol> not sure how to correctly handle CJK and combining characters, though
13:06:31 <edlothiol> pointers would be appreciated ;)
13:06:34 <kilobyte> there's a function for converting a single wide char but not a string, I can make one
13:07:22 <kilobyte> well, I know how to handle these two but not RTL
13:07:38 <edlothiol> I assume the put_ucs_string function in tileweb.cc is wrong too, then
13:07:50 <edlothiol> (wrong for CJK)
13:08:08 <kilobyte> you check wcwidth(), and are prepared for it returning 0 or 2
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13:13:02 <kilobyte> or for extra fun, 2 then 0 on subsequent characters
13:13:31 <kilobyte> the rule is: all 0s are attached to the previous character, and should never be separated
13:13:46 <kilobyte> a 0 at the beginning of a string is invalid
13:15:12 <kilobyte> another caveat: if a width-2 character happens one position before the edge of screen, you need to put a space there, and write the actual character on the next line
13:15:28 <kilobyte> (ie, no way to have half of a CJK character)
13:15:41 <edlothiol> fun
13:17:01 <kilobyte> yeah, this part of i18n is tricky...
13:17:53 <kilobyte> hmm, what about using existing word wrapping functions?  These handle CJK and combining already.
13:23:54 <edlothiol> do you mean chop_string? that could help
13:25:21 <kilobyte> or rather wordwrap_line()
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13:27:24 <TZer0> Hello
13:31:28 <edlothiol> actually, unless I'm overlooking something, the webtiles put_string function is never used, and put_ucs_string only from putwch
13:34:16 <kilobyte> pushed something for %ls, untested -- I'm doing repairs in a room, the computer is packed, and I'm sitting with the phone waiting for my father to come back to help moving the furniture :p
13:34:43 <kilobyte> N900 > most laptops, but I have no browser capable of running webtiles
13:36:23 <kilobyte> or rather, the only non-headless connected computer is packed :p
13:38:25 <TZer0> I have an interesting race-idea
13:38:28 <TZer0> Do we need more races?
13:38:31 <TZer0> or species...
13:40:38 <|amethyst> !tell galehar  Okay, the worst of my newly-introduced constriction crashes are fixed... I'll put it in branch 'constriction'
13:40:38 <Henzell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let galehar know.
13:41:33 <edlothiol> kilobyte: did the push work? I don't see anything
13:42:26 <kilobyte> beh, rejected
13:44:10 <|amethyst> !tell galehar I haven't made any of the gameplay changes yet; and actor::held is still mostly unused.
13:44:10 <Henzell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let galehar know.
13:44:44 <galehar> ok, thanks :)
13:44:44 <Henzell> galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
13:44:56 <|amethyst> galehar:  it definitely needs more testing
13:45:21 <|amethyst> galehar:  I'll leave the gameplay changes to you, if you don't mind
13:45:43 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r2b42d2023060 10/crawl-ref/ (docs/changelog.txt source/initfile.cc): Disable the "cyrillic" fake language.
13:45:45 <|amethyst> galehar:  since I'll have kind of spotty availability over the next few weeks
13:45:53 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r767e31263185 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Move a special casing of a branch together with the rest.
13:45:53 <CIA-50> 03kilobyte * r149bde4dfba0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tileweb-text.cc unicode.cc unicode.h): Don't use locale-dependent %ls.
13:54:28 <Cheibriados> New branch created: constriction (4 commits)
13:54:32 <galehar> |amethyst: fine, I'll see what I can make of it
13:54:32 <galehar> |amethyst: thanks for your help :)
13:54:32 <|amethyst> galehar:  no problem, and sorry for the slowness
13:54:32 <galehar> it's ok, I'm much worse!
13:54:32 <edlothiol> kilobyte: take a look at the inner loop of wcstoutf8 :)
13:54:32 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  re 2b42d20, the proper way to determine pronunciation is to look it up in a dictionary :P
13:54:32 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  that way it's only wrong for homophones, rather than most of the time :)
13:54:32 <|amethyst> s/phones/nyms/
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13:55:51 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
13:57:10 <|amethyst> galehar:  it's there, Chei failed to announce it because I'm stupid
13:57:49 <galehar> yeah, just seen it
14:05:55 <|amethyst> galehar:  one thing in particular I'm unsure of:  I changed the monster_info constriction stuff from an array of strings to a vector of strings
14:06:38 <|amethyst> galehar:  I didn't use a pointer to a temporarily-allocated vector or multiset, because that would make the constructors more complicated
14:12:39 <galehar> that's probably fine
14:13:38 <galehar> the idea of using a pointer to a map was also to make testing simpler, not just to save memory
14:14:14 <|amethyst> make testing simpler?
14:14:24 <galehar> !constricting
14:14:35 <galehar> quicker to code
14:14:48 <galehar> than constriction.empty()
14:15:31 <|amethyst> well, it should be is_constricting() anyway
14:15:54 <|amethyst> I actually had is_constricting() return  (constricting && !constricting->empty())  but that's probably overly careful
14:16:20 <galehar> hint: I think you can avoid the temporary need_cleared map in clear_far_constrictions
14:16:36 <galehar> like I did in skills.cc:383
14:17:02 <galehar> by using i++, you duplicate the iterator and can delete the copy and increment it
14:17:06 <|amethyst> I had something similar, but it was crashing
14:17:25 <galehar> it's tricky, but nice when it works :)
14:17:32 <|amethyst> oh, right
14:17:51 <|amethyst> stop_constricting can delete the map
14:18:11 <|amethyst> so I just needed something like  constricting && i != constricting->end()  as the condition
14:19:00 <galehar> maybe, I just had a quick glance, won't be able to dive until later
14:21:31 <|amethyst> galehar:  I do something similar in handle_noattack_constrictions(), where monster_die() indirectly changes, and may delete, the map
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14:44:36 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I have another commit to monster, fixing a compilation problem introduced by 46bf11a
14:47:25 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  there are also a bunch of backported changes in my dcss010 branch
14:51:12 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: does monster display trample attacks at the moment?
14:52:21 <|amethyst> @??elephant
14:52:21 <Gretell> elephant (03Y) | Spd: 10 | Int: animal | HD: 9 | HP: 52-84 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Dam: 20, 5 | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 431.
14:52:25 <|amethyst> hrm
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14:55:59 <twelwe> are orc warlords supposed to be considered magic users in regards to trog piety?
14:56:48 <kilobyte> uhm, no
14:57:28 <twelwe> oh, excuse me, it was an accidental offscreen kill at the same time
14:57:29 <Cheibriados> orc warlord (11o) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal | HD: 15 | HP: 85-141 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 32 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(60) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 2258.

14:57:29 <ChrisOelmueller> %??orc warlord
14:57:41 <Cheibriados> hell beast (072) | Spd: 10-17 | Int: normal | HD: 7 | HP: 40-97 | AC/EV: 4/9 | Dam: 28, 2007(trample) | 05demonic, 10doors | Res: 06magic(28), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 276.

14:57:41 <|amethyst> %??hell beast
14:58:31 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  yes, it does :P
14:58:43 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: ;p
14:58:47 <ChrisOelmueller> thanks
15:00:34 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2552-gfd589a2
15:00:50 <|amethyst> @??hell beast
15:00:50 <Gretell> hell beast (072) | Spd: 10-17 | Int: normal | HD: 7 | HP: 40-97 | AC/EV: 4/9 | Dam: 28, 20 | 05demonic, 10doors | Res: 06magic(28), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 276.
15:00:53 <ussdefiant> oh hey, is time deplayed by default in trunk now?
15:01:00 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  one more commit, sorry
15:01:09 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  it shouldn't require a rebuild
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15:01:20 <|amethyst> (just monster-main.o)
15:01:31 <|amethyst> ussdefiant:  yes
15:01:37 <ussdefiant> neat
15:01:45 <|amethyst> ussdefiant:  show_gold_turns and show_game_turns are both on by default
15:02:02 <ussdefiant> what's gold_turns?
15:02:16 <|amethyst> ussdefiant:  you have to turn that on to see turns at all
15:02:25 <|amethyst> ussdefiant:  then show_game_turns makes it time rather than player turns
15:02:58 <Cheibriados> hell beast (072) | Spd: 10-17 | Int: normal | HD: 7 | HP: 40-97 | AC/EV: 4/9 | Dam: 28, 2007(trample) | 05demonic, 10doors | Res: 06magic(28), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 278.

15:02:58 <|amethyst> %?hell beast
15:03:12 <galehar> ussdefiant: the option is called that way just because amount of gold and time are on the same line
15:06:51 <twelwe> is there a designated spot to report typos in monster descriptions?
15:07:15 <|amethyst> join the English translation team on transifex :)
15:07:54 <twelwe> i'm not familiar with transifex
15:08:34 <|amethyst> see docs/translation.txt
15:08:39 <|amethyst> the project is at:
15:08:44 <|amethyst> ??transifex
15:08:44 <Henzell> transifex[1/1]: https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/dcss/
15:08:48 <kilobyte> for an one-time typo, it may be faster to mention it on IRC, but ssssh, you're not supposed to be thinking of that if we can get you to improve more of them
15:09:16 <kilobyte> just register there, and request edit rights for English
15:10:30 <twelwe> i wish i kept up with my hungarian, it is sad to see it at 0%
15:11:03 <kilobyte> twelwe: a crapload of recent descs have been written by a dirty polack, it'd be great if you could improve english ones
15:11:29 <kilobyte> or magyar ones, of course
15:11:42 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  how long have you been speaking English, btw?
15:12:36 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  My boss (a Pole) has been living in the US for 27 years and your English is much better than his :)
15:13:03 <|amethyst> I guess that's the internet for you
15:13:24 <|amethyst> sorry, 28 years
15:15:55 <twelwe> okay I have an account, I'll see if I can edit this
15:17:45 <twelwe> does grimm need to add me or something?
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15:19:47 <kilobyte> |amethyst: written technical English.  I can barely understand anyone speaking.
15:20:18 <kilobyte> and for descs, just take a look what part of my writing has to be immediately corrected by dolorous
15:20:54 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2552-gfd589a2
15:20:56 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I'm talking about his written technical English, which he has been having me proofread for nearly 10 years now
15:22:27 <kilobyte> almost all documentation is in English
15:23:38 <kilobyte> ~15 years ago a traumatic thing happened to me.  I sat at a machine with translated man pages, and tried to look up some Perl docs
15:24:27 <kilobyte> the last time I checked, Polish was my native language, I'm fluent in Perl too, yet I wasn't able to understand a single sentence
15:24:32 <twelwe> how do I begin editing? Do I need to contact grimm?
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15:25:16 <|amethyst> twelwe:  I believe you just have to wait for him to approve you
15:25:21 <kilobyte> sshed to a machine with docs in English, and was relieved: everything was clear again
15:25:41 <twelwe> how will he know to approve me? I haven't done anything but sign up for an account
15:25:49 <kilobyte> after such a traumatic thing, I never ever look at translated docs if I have any choice :p
15:26:05 <|amethyst> twelwe:  oh, you can request to be added to the team on the site, sec
15:26:15 <kilobyte> twelwe: you request to join the English team, and someone will add you up
15:26:22 <kilobyte> galehar for example
15:26:25 <twelwe> ok. I was looking for something like that but haven't found a join button
15:26:33 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  was it bad grammar etc, or that the translators didn't understand what they are translating?
15:26:53 <twelwe> found it! thanks
15:27:54 <kilobyte> mostly a completely different set of names for every single thing, compared to what I was used to
15:28:24 <kilobyte> imagine as if someone renamed "directory" to "folder", and did that for every concept at once
15:28:50 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  Oh, so someone unfamiliar with Polish technical writing?
15:30:10 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I read Kant in English translation, and there was a footnote on every single occurrence of the word "object" to indicate whether he used "Gegenstand" or "Objekt"
15:31:18 <|amethyst> since they were both (distinct) technical terms for him
15:35:26 <ChrisOelmueller> kilobyte: LC_ALL saves me in those cases
15:36:34 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: it would overwrite LC_COLLATE, which for en_US.UTF-8 in glibc is a monstrosity
15:36:53 <ChrisOelmueller> just for viewing man pages in english. :)
15:37:25 <Cheibriados> Location Inappropriate Vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5857) by giygas
15:37:48 <kilobyte> ignoring letter case is acceptable (bad for technical matters, good for everyman's use), but ignoring spaces and punctuation is not
15:38:36 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: error messages, etc, are no different: if the person uses different terms that you expect, it can be hard to understand
15:39:04 <ChrisOelmueller> that's why we don't translate error messages at all
15:39:36 <ChrisOelmueller> it really sucks to get errors in $LANGUAGE_YOU_DONT_SPEAK without the slightest clue what went wrong
15:41:10 <Wensley> let all errors generate nothing but integers
15:41:17 <Wensley> E 10938445
15:41:39 <Wensley> screw anyone not using arabic numerals
15:44:16 <CIA-50> 03Thann * r9d7eee7db99e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 2 dirs): added autopickup menu default_items plus help and bugfixes
15:44:17 <CIA-50> 03|amethyst * r47584bdf779a 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Actually use force_autopickup for unknown subtypes.
15:44:27 <CIA-50> 03|amethyst * r70250edd847d 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Use "unknown <base type>" for unknown toggles in \ menu.
15:44:28 <CIA-50> 03|amethyst * r256a6aabf0c5 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Ensure that all subtypes, including unknown, fit in MAX_SUBTYPES.
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15:51:01 <Thann> |amethyst : i didnt mean to imply you needed to fix those things i siggested
15:52:45 <|amethyst> didn't think you did, was just letting you know that somebody still needed to handle (2)
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15:53:52 <|amethyst> Some ability to toggle other base types would be nice, but that can wait for 0.12
15:54:53 <|amethyst> also, possibly, randarts separately from base types... but that's quite a bit trickier to do
15:55:44 <|amethyst> err, s/base types/subtypes/
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15:58:03 <CIA-50> 03edlothiol * rc6bd39a68d15 10/crawl-ref/source/ (util/webtiles-init-player.sh webserver/config.py): Change default path for webtiles ttyrecs to include the player name.
15:58:03 <CIA-50> 03edlothiol * red8c66db9782 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tileweb.cc tileweb.h): Remove an unused function.
15:59:39 <Thann> haha yeah. also the kind person phunkiton put up a trunk webtiles server and i have already noticed a small problem
16:14:07 <ChrisOelmueller> autopickup fixes, better than reach-stabbing
16:14:14 <ChrisOelmueller> thanks, Thann and |amethyst :)
16:21:26 <|amethyst> Thann:  what's that?
16:39:54 <Thann> the tri menu has '-' always look grey
16:40:09 <Thann> |amethyst : ^
16:40:52 <|amethyst> weird
16:41:18 <Thann> should be a simple fix
16:47:51 <edlothiol> may very well be a webtiles problem, the webtiles menu handling often requires some special casing for menus that do fancier things
17:12:34 <Thann> I agree edlothiol
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17:19:53 <galehar> |amethyst: 47584bdf is crashing
17:20:32 <galehar> ERROR: range check error (-1 / 60)
17:20:43 <galehar> items.cc:2556
17:22:09 <galehar> with corpses, get_max_subtype returns -1
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17:25:35 <galehar> also, it would be nice if the default action in the autopickup menu could be "toggle" instead of "force on"
17:31:28 <|amethyst> what
17:31:32 <|amethyst> I thought I removed that
17:31:57 <|amethyst> oh
17:32:00 <|amethyst> something else
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17:34:32 <|amethyst> galehar:  shouldn't get_max_subtype return 2 ?
17:35:08 <|amethyst> I guess other things probably depend on the -1 there
17:35:37 <galehar> no idea what's the purpose of -1
17:35:52 <galehar> maybe it's obsolete or could be done differently
17:36:32 <|amethyst> well, corpses are the only bad case
17:36:39 <|amethyst> I guess I'll handle them specially for now
17:37:44 <|amethyst> hm
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17:39:16 <|amethyst> oh I see
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17:43:52 <galehar> 0b74ee5ed introduced the -1, but I'm not sure why. Used to be 0 in sub_type_limits
17:44:09 <CIA-50> 03|amethyst * ra6203778ee56 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Don't crash when encountering corpses.
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18:52:04 <CIA-50> 03evilmike * r2c4fd66c4731 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Halve the AC of ghost moths.
18:52:15 <CIA-50> 03evilmike * re83c43af262a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/spider.des: A whole bunch of changes to Spider rune vaults.
18:52:15 <CIA-50> 03evilmike * r4f9c9ef2c008 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Don't let ghost moths flee at low HP any more.
18:52:58 <Nomi> evilmike: i love you
18:53:22 <ChrisOelmueller> evilmike: i love you
18:54:26 <Eronarn> evilmike: i love you (and change their name to time flies)
18:54:31 <evilmike> they're still perma-invis, but you can more reasonably kill them in melee without sInv now
18:54:50 <ChrisOelmueller> no guaranteed moths of wrath sounds good too
18:54:53 <Nomi> they were a bit too diesel for spider
18:55:06 <evilmike> they still hit just as hard as before
18:55:13 <Eronarn> always the option to have harder ones for zot
18:56:21 <ChrisOelmueller> i liked the idea about young inept moths that are invis as long as you're further away than 1 or 2 tiles but have a hard time keeping that up at close distance (like e.g. sky beasts)
18:56:33 <ChrisOelmueller> but no fleeing would reasonably deal with this too so for now i'm happy
18:56:48 <Eronarn> juvenile ones are a good idea imo
18:56:52 <Eronarn> put them on spider 1/2
18:57:18 <Nomi> coming to think of it, there should be regular ghost moths for zot and lesser ones for spider
18:57:37 <Nomi> the lesser ones can be the "new" ones
18:57:51 <Nomi> with halved ac and no fleeing
18:58:30 <evilmike> perhaps. there was that weirdo "greater ghost moth" vault monster a while back, maybe that could be the basis for it
18:58:39 <ChrisOelmueller> oh no :(
18:58:41 <evilmike> although "greater foo" is lousy, it would need a better name
18:59:09 <evilmike> also I don't know if it's really worth it, ghost moths are quite uncommon in zot and thier main purpose is to surprisingly drain all your MP
18:59:16 <ChrisOelmueller> juvenile moths sounds better, especially if there's some effect like what i mentioned
18:59:58 <evilmike> a monster that "de-cloaks" when it gets into close range sounds interesting. this would make it weaker in melee though
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19:01:09 <ChrisOelmueller> it could still get sky-beast-like invisibility at close range, just not permanent one. but i'll test the new behavior before arguing for that more :)
19:01:15 <Nomi> maybe it can be the other way around, a monster that goes invisible when close
19:01:36 <Nomi> easier to deal with if it has fleeing
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19:01:59 <ChrisOelmueller> pretty sure that would be perceived as annoying by lots of players
19:02:11 <evilmike> it also doesnt sound that different from just giving it the invisiblity spell
19:02:47 <st_> I think de-cloaking is a great mechanic for monster stealth
19:03:12 <evilmike> it could also be given as a "sense invisibility" mutation, just like how some monters sense invisible
19:03:46 <evilmike> but yeah this does sound better as a stealth type thing (as opposed to magical invisibility)
19:07:12 <Eronarn> chameleon
19:12:00 <st_> monsters doing things when they get close is something we could do more with
19:12:23 <st_> like changing into other things and such
19:15:23 <Eronarn> monster that, rather than: M.@ and taking a step
19:15:33 <Eronarn> splits in half and ends up on your north/south
19:16:28 <Eronarn> also, lava orc monsters
19:16:47 <ChrisOelmueller> i'd be content with lava orc monks for now *hint hint
19:17:06 <Eronarn> if anyone wants to finish up lava orcs that would be super cool
19:17:08 <Eronarn> (get it)
19:17:39 <st_> we need an overhaul of water/lava monsters, it would be a perfect time for some lava orc action
19:17:52 <st_> lava orcs live in lava right
19:18:16 <evilmike> i think they were supposed to get a delay where they move into/out of lava
19:18:39 <evilmike> that was months ago, though
19:20:11 <evilmike> i'd probably overhaul submerging by making it so monsters only re-submerge out of combat. they generate submerged and pop out to fight you, and then stay visible for the whole fight, even when fleeing
19:21:33 <st_> yeah
19:21:37 <evilmike> same goes with if you back off from a square of water
19:21:49 <evilmike> (for reaching attacks, just make the monster retreat 1 square instead of ducking under water)
19:23:22 <st_> I kind of feel like we shouldn't have monsters in water that stay in water unless they have a ranged effect (lightning, tentacles)
19:23:37 <Eronarn> evilmike: that delay is one of the few things holding them back from getting into trunk
19:23:42 <evilmike> change big fish into flying fish? :P
19:23:54 <Eronarn> unfortunately i just started a new job with insane hours, still in the process of moving, etc.
19:23:56 <ChrisOelmueller> big fish still live?
19:24:03 <evilmike> I forget which one was deleted
19:24:05 <evilmike> I think it was goldfish
19:24:09 <ChrisOelmueller> aw.
19:24:19 <st_> evilmike: change them into horrible lovecraft things that chase you
19:24:25 <ChrisOelmueller> they could really need a name
19:24:31 <ChrisOelmueller> even a horrible lovecraft name
19:24:40 <Eronarn> schools of psychic fish
19:25:04 <Eronarn> (jelly)fish
19:26:28 <st_> I think b0rsuk suggesting changing deep trolls into a water monster, I like that
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20:27:32 <Cheibriados> Evocation has almost no impact on Cheibriados Abilities (MeGl) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5858) by graffen69
20:27:39 <Eronarn> ...lol.
20:28:39 <elliptic> the best bug report
20:32:24 <Wensley> ??badmantis
20:32:25 <Henzell> badmantis[1/2]: 0005611: Received +3 lightning scales {sslith, rElec} barding as NaSt.
20:33:40 <Eronarn> hahaha
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20:38:04 <evilmike> is there any plan to make it so mimic HD doesn't scale with depth? It's weird to me how traps were "unscaled", but mimics still have that thing where they get high HD if they are deeper
20:38:34 <evilmike> to me, mimics are practically a type of trap
20:38:52 <|amethyst> yes, galehar is planning on doing that
20:39:13 <evilmike> alright, that's good to hear
20:44:39 <Grunt> Hm, how would that work?
20:45:04 <Grunt> ...{inept|(no prefix)|ravenous} mimics have fixed HD and appear only starting at a certain depth?
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20:51:33 <Zannick> well, before galehar added mimic scaling they were fixed hd but chances increased with depth
20:51:36 <Zannick> iirc on the chance thing
20:52:08 <Zannick> generally not anything to worry about past early game, just an annoyance.
20:52:41 <Zannick> adding in scaling was kind of okay, but constriction blew that out of the water
20:53:59 <Zannick> (and if mimics are traps, then that can be an unavoidable death midgame for squishy types)
20:54:29 <Zannick> i guess s/if mimics are traps, //
20:55:46 <Zannick> Grunt: so i imagine somewhere between the original "one type of mimic fits all" and what you said ("three types of mimics fits all")
20:56:29 <Grunt> Well, if we want to adapt the current state of affairs of having three mimics to the concept of trap unscaling, I think that's the only approach that makes sense.
20:56:35 <Grunt> Of course, having three types of mimics isn't necessarily a given.
20:56:50 <Grunt> ...though I imagine players will complain more if they see, say, a constricting mimic on D:3 or so. :p
20:57:01 <Grunt> Well, not complain more than they're already complaining, but... <_<
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21:03:19 <Zannick> well, the more sane approach for one type of mimic would be to not give it constriction :P
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21:10:34 <evilmike> the problem I have with scaling isn't really related to constriction
21:10:52 <evilmike> it's because nothing else works like that in crawl, and it's not obvious (to the player) what depth you're on unless you know how it that works internally (or flip on wizard mode)
21:10:58 <evilmike> so it's an inconsistency and a spoiler
21:15:02 <G-Flex> constriction damage scaling based on depth?
21:17:20 <evilmike> no
21:18:04 <evilmike> I was talking about mimic HD. lots of formulas use HD, it's not just constriction
21:43:13 <phunktion> evilmike: i've rolled out the fix, let me know if you see it again
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22:14:08 <Cheibriados> Tomb entry generated both on Crypt:2 and Crypt:3 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5859) by OrangeXP
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22:22:01 <Grunt> "have not tried entering"
22:22:15 <Grunt> I'd say there's a very high chance that one of the entries is a mimic.
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22:23:01 <|amethyst> yes, one is
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23:08:38 <Gretell> Debian builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2562-g4f9c9ef
23:16:20 <CIA-50> 03|amethyst * rdfd62d9969ef 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/help.txt: Improve autopickup help.
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