00:00:26 -!- Grunt has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:02:11 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2533-gf7678ec (33) 00:04:21 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 00:13:27 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2533-gf7678ec 00:23:58 -!- darwin has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:59 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:24:53 I compiled the latest stable Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup on Slackware, and it seems there is no binary, or it does not work (if it is the .py file) 00:24:58 <|amethyst> darwin: did you get any error message from the compilation? 00:25:27 no 00:25:32 actually, i seemed to have missed it in the huge output of ls 00:25:44 it is there 00:25:45 <|amethyst> cool 00:32:31 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:50 -!- darwin has left ##crawl-dev 01:08:07 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:08:34 -!- omnirizon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21:19 -!- darwin has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21:35 auto explore visited arrow trap 5 times (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5849) by nubinia 01:22:17 I am thinking of making a SlackBuild for Crawl, and I am wondering if there are any files users would edit and might need to save between versions... and if I release it, I wonder if you would want me to make an ASCII or tile build 01:26:40 -!- omnirizon has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:28:15 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:37 -!- headzone has joined ##crawl-dev 02:03:31 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:47 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:16:05 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:26:43 -!- headzone has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:37:53 -!- headzone has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:42 so, I made a SlackBuild, it worked, but I see these unconventional directories in the tree: dat, docs, install, settings. Do these really need to be in the system root, and how can I set this up to be on a BSD-style system like Slackware? 02:41:19 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:25 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 02:57:00 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 02:58:13 Item appears twice at top of pile in ^X (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5850) by nubinia 03:08:00 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:54 darwin: what do you mean by "unconventional directories" or "system root"? 03:16:14 I stated the unconventional directories 03:16:30 a root is the highest-level directory 03:17:26 the directories I mentioned do not exist on standard UNIX systems 03:17:32 and they should not 03:17:49 but 'make install' would install them if I did it 03:18:23 uhm, do you set some strange prefix? 03:19:00 the Makefile puts clua into $(datadir_fp)/dat/clua 03:20:21 where datadir_fp is $(prefix)($DATADIR) 03:20:24 I did 'make install DESTDIR=$PKG' 03:20:51 and $PKG is in a temporary area that mirrors the normal filesystem 03:21:40 also, it looks like it is dat/dlua in the source i have 03:21:57 ie, you requested a homedir/Windows/DGL/etc setup 03:22:19 this is documented in the Makefile, at the very beginning 03:23:43 it will not do a system-wide install unless you request it, no matter if DESTDIR is specified or not 03:24:04 where the Makefile talks about DESTDIR, it does not say anything about windoze 03:24:35 like in automake, DESTDIR merely redirects whatever install you requested to some directory while making executables inside think the real path has no DESTDIR 03:25:39 the line right above DESTDIR says you need to specify a prefix, such as /usr/local (or /usr for distribution maintainers) 03:26:10 I guess it might be better to mention that if prefix is not specified, the default is a local install 03:26:29 oh 03:29:38 -!- dtsund has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:19 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 03:47:59 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:48:13 finally, internet working again 03:48:24 kilobyte: im almost done testing my noise changes 03:49:37 just need to check if i broke out of sight beam sound messages or if thats an older problem, and rebase 03:51:09 oh, also wizmode mutations seem broken? even simple wizmode names like fast didn't work 03:51:16 err, speed 03:51:52 oh, maybe i just tried the wrong name 03:52:20 right, i tried the A name, not the wizmode name -.- 03:52:33 that not both of these work is a bit silly 04:03:59 hm, no beam sounds through doors in an older crawl version either 04:07:37 also, git diff is spamming me about line endings (im on windows), is that a problem? 04:09:28 to put my changes into a local branch i can create the branch after changing stuff without losing anything, right? 04:12:24 ah, guess ill have to stash first... 04:18:28 re: secret doors, how about disabling non-vault secret doors for 0.11 as a first step? 04:19:58 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:07 Keskitalo: yes, I think that would be a good idea 04:22:38 -!- aleksil has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:40 but secret doors in the dungeon are nice 04:30:39 why? 04:33:08 -!- aleksil has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:34:42 -!- aleksil has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37:38 I like them too personally, the flavour is tasty and level design you can do with them is <3, but the latter is easily spoiled by looking at .des files. The random doors are theoretically scummable as well. 04:39:15 kilobyte commented something like that all they do is hide parts of levels from players, although I kind of like to think it as a bonus to characters who invest in T&D. But that's a rather weak argument (T&D is not a very strongly designed skill mechanically) 04:39:29 (maybe it could be replaced with Int checks) 04:41:04 Trying to summarize.. I find the "ooh, there was a hidden room/corridor etc!" is a very cool thing to come across, but the feature is not very well fitting in Crawl. 04:42:16 is it possible to build both an ASCII and tiles binary and have them both installed? 04:49:03 you can put them into different folders, then maybe move your saves across 04:49:10 i think theyre compatible, but im not entirely sure 04:50:22 Keskitalo: galehar posted something about making the T&D check independent from search duration and require a somewhat randomized minimum skill level instead, both for doors and traps 04:50:30 posted on the tavern i mean 04:50:48 that seems like better design than the current searching crap 04:52:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:52:54 Yeah, that could work. Like he said, you could hide non-obvious stuff (treasure rooms) around like this, but not obvious secret doors in vaults, like they're used often. 04:53:07 Well, spoilable, not obvious. 05:00:04 Directional sounds (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5851) by Galefury 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2533-gf7678ec 05:03:35 alefury: That sounds hella sexy 05:03:56 the messages could use improvement, they seem a bit clumsy to me :/ 05:04:11 other than that, yes, thanks :) 05:23:20 i'm for anything re: disabling secret doors, but those in vaults are worse offenders than randomly-generated ones, because you can just look at the des files 05:35:37 isn't everybody in favour of making show_gold_turns and show_game_turns default to true? 05:35:52 why haven't we changed it already? 05:53:27 probably everyone just thought "somebody else is going to do it really soon" :P 05:53:40 classic tragedy of the commons :P 05:55:16 I don't care as long as you don't remove the options; it bugs me having a thing in the corner that changes constantly 05:56:21 you must be the single person who has changed their options and isnt using those two options! 05:56:28 last time this came up, the only argument for status quo was "dpeg may have been against changing it". 05:56:46 i think keeping the options is definitely good, but changing the default is long overdue 05:56:56 I respect dpeg and all he has done for the game, but it's still a terrible argument. He left, we should move forward. 05:56:59 well I am a weirdo 05:57:06 galehar: one other argument i have heard is that some stuff happens at fixed turn intervals, and it would be bad to rub people's face in that. 05:57:24 also not a very good argument 05:57:30 like hell effects you mean? 05:57:36 yes, and god wrath i think? 05:57:46 and a bunch of other similar stuff 05:57:49 i agree with both, dpeg's opinion probably being the only real argument against it as default and BlastHardcheese being a weirdo 05:57:50 maybe xom, i have no idea 05:58:12 anyway, DO IIIIIIIT!!!! 06:01:01 galehar: is there actually any euclidean supporter outside of you :p 06:01:25 absolutego: not that I know of 06:01:54 we should make a poll someday because i'm not sure how many people are stuck at anti-squarelos 06:02:39 the argument that it would look really ugly is pretty compelling actually. because its true. 06:03:25 i dont even remember my opinion, should read some of my old posts :( 06:03:32 i played a bit with elliptic's squarelos long ago and it wasn't anywhere as ugly as you'd think 06:03:52 storms look alright, and tornado covers most (all?) of LOS anyway 06:03:58 anyway, gtg for now 06:04:07 -!- alefury has quit [] 06:07:23 I don't get what people don't like about euclidean. 06:07:37 It plays fine, and it's actually a smaller change than square los 06:13:39 I'm in total entire 100% disagreement but I'm not going to argue 06:15:21 have you tried it? 06:15:58 I hav no opinion here. 06:16:53 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:21:31 03galehar * rea4d253fe34e 10/crawl-ref/ (docs/options_guide.txt settings/init.txt source/initfile.cc): Make show_gold_turns and show_game_turns default to true. 06:27:42 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:42 i did try it, but barely 06:35:24 i'd say that one of the most unfair situations in current crawl is when energy randomization gives a tough monster two consecutive attacks, and euclidean would bring a lot of that 06:37:36 i haven't noticed that 06:38:31 when does energy randomization give a tough monster two consecutive attacks? I thought it only randomized movement energy 06:38:32 however, it's true that the time system of crawl can use improvements, and that euclidean would really benefit of it 06:40:25 monqy: it does? what the hell, that has happened to me 06:41:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:53 weird 06:42:07 maybe you did a high-delay action? 06:42:37 or its attack was low-delay 06:42:43 er 06:42:46 alternatively i don't know what the fuck i'm talking about and you should never mind me 06:42:53 but let me see if i can find an example 06:42:55 low-cost? the whole player/monster thing is weird 06:44:53 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:45:47 this is probably one of those never-mind-me situations, yes 06:46:02 still, it should apply to euclidean 06:46:57 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:35 well the diagonal move delay increase would apply to monsters too so it'd only really give them free hits in bizarre corner cases 06:48:00 oh god are we talking about increased diagonal movement time again 06:48:44 monqy: ranged 06:48:48 I'm going to deny involvement 06:48:53 duck and cover 06:48:56 run for your lives 06:49:24 does light have squarelos yet? 06:49:33 yeah 06:49:45 good, so I'll have a place to go 06:49:47 4.1 has a squarelos implementation too so 41qys-crawl enabled it 06:50:01 also good but maybe less good 06:50:32 at least for now it's much less good - 41qys isn't playable at all 07:01:18 euclidean doesn't build on my end 07:01:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:24 clearly the gods have spoken 07:01:58 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:03:26 41qys-crawl on gitorious looks interesting 07:03:37 do you have a plan somewhere? 07:04:15 Keskitalo: an untracked file full of plans 07:04:27 (unorganized notes) 07:05:36 docs/todo isn't that, right? (that might make an itneresting read.. must resist..) 07:05:53 yeah it's not that 07:07:55 the biggest, broadest-reaching, and least finished plans I have are to overhaul religion, skills/stats/combat, dungeon generation; I have big plans for the abyss too but that only touches on the abyss 07:10:20 -!- Adeon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11:00 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:54 FR: when you drop an item that you've just autopicked up, you're prompted to disable autopickup for this subtype. 07:15:50 you can use you.last_pickup, but you can't tell if the pickup has been automatic 07:16:43 maybe we need to keep track of what the last character action was (not the same as player command) 07:19:53 galehar: such a prompt sounds awful to me given how many times I drop an item I've just picked up because I already have enough of it with me (for identify or remove curse or teleportation or whatever) 07:20:16 I really wouldn't want a useless prompt every time this happens 07:20:35 how about only non-stacking items? 07:20:42 even so 07:21:01 I like having autopickup pick up stuff like scrolls of enchant weapon even if I immediately drop them a lot 07:21:13 and I guess you'd rather keep autopickup on for them rather than toggling it depending on your current stock 07:21:17 because sometimes I want to immediately use them instead, and it is easy to miss them if autopickup doesn't grab them 07:21:44 seriously, can we not make autopickup interface any more complicated? 07:23:27 optional stuff like the new autopickup menu is okay, but adding in extra prompts into regular gameplay usually sounds like a really bad thing to me :) 07:24:29 true 07:28:00 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:21 -!- joosa has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:30:21 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 07:32:17 there are two cases: newbie players and advanced ones. The visible interface should pander to the former more: ie, be simple, and not ask too many questions. 07:32:38 for the latter, we can add optional settings 07:32:49 although you can do this with lua already 07:34:11 a good example of this was the shopping list prompt for ziggurats... a few advanced players liked it, but newbies were extremely confused by it 07:34:37 yeah, and there's ^O already 07:40:16 shouldn't you be able to apport over water if you're a mf? 07:40:28 nitpicking here, maybe 07:40:55 good idea 07:41:31 and reversing it: autothrow (and throw in general) keeps firing into deep water even if you're not a mf 07:41:54 same for regular bows 07:42:03 Why shouldn't you be able to apport over water as non-mf? 07:42:09 it seems you can't apport items on deep water, so it's probably not a good idea 07:42:28 Oh, apport drags stuff on the ground maybe? 07:42:40 ghallberg: because sometimes they are only partially apported, land somewhere in the middle and can be lost 07:42:48 mhm 07:43:42 absolutego: making apport pull things into water at your feet as mf is okay, but being able to apport items out of deep water would be inconsistent 07:45:18 yes, i didn't know that was the case, so apporting over water is probably something you don't want 08:29:47 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:43 -!- aleksil has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:44:05 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:46:12 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:19 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:53:04 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:29 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:00 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:19 -!- Grunt has joined ##crawl-dev 08:58:05 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:12:20 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:59 -!- moxian_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:26:56 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:33:33 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 10:17:38 -!- Pingas has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:38 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:35 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:47 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:50:54 Vaults entry vaults are never generated due to incorrect tagging (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5852) by sgrunt 10:51:45 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:21 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:48 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:34 -!- SkaryMonk1 has left ##crawl-dev 11:02:33 %git 9cde4de2 11:02:34 kilobyte * r9cde4de20e2c: Change the place name from "Vault:" to "Vaults:". (3 months ago, 31 files, 167+ 167-) https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/9cde4de20e2c 11:04:51 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:38 -!- moxian_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:17 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:22 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:56 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:02 -!- blabber has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:36:45 03kilobyte * rf0ad5b31da17 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/vaults.des: s/vault_entry/vaults_entry/ 12:06:32 -!- Adeon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:34 -!- Patashu is now known as Patashu[Zzz] 12:09:23 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:14 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:23:26 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27:38 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38:22 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:44 -!- Fa has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:25 -!- keksz has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:26 -!- kek has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:10 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:08:24 Vaults and Crypt arrival vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5853) by sgrunt 13:24:31 -!- keksz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:11 I'm adding an option for the webtiles chat message logging, should that affect DGL message logging as well? 13:43:57 I think that that would be a good idea. 13:48:15 -!- Fa has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:49:58 people using DGL don't 'chat' like tiles players apparently do 13:50:45 just display a black screen whenever tiles people try to chat 13:51:03 s/ chat/ play/ 13:51:26 (or fix that in DGL too but i assume it's not that easy to do) 13:51:38 (perhaps we chat more if we can actually see the game while chatting) 13:53:18 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:13 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:54:25 -!- blabber has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:38 -!- Sombrero_Mott has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:57:45 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:17 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:10 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:31 03edlothiol * r115a876427a7 10/crawl-ref/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Make the DGL/webtiles chat message logging optional. 14:05:59 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:26 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:18:53 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:14 -!- moxian has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:40 -!- moxian has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:08 Additional Randart Name Content (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5854) by jeffqyzt 15:11:06 -!- Nomi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:46 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:34:30 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:07 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:42 -!- darwin has left ##crawl-dev 16:06:12 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:12:05 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:23 -!- Jatoskep has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:51:09 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:35 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:05:21 -!- Nomi is now known as Ancient_Lich 17:05:31 -!- Ancient_Lich is now known as Nomi 17:06:21 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:40 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:17:35 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:49 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:58:13 -!- Nomi_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01:09 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:03:46 -!- Nomi_ is now known as Nomi 18:04:43 03evilmike * rab6943af2717 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/ (large.des small.des twisted.des): Remove a bunch of hidden items and other spoilery stuff from entry vaults. 18:05:19 in wizmode if found one with a kiku altar in a bubble 18:05:24 ...what kind of stuff was there? 18:05:34 i just thought, wtf is this? 18:05:52 i think i just removed that one 18:06:03 ussdefiant: a surprising number of entry vaults had hidden loot chambers 18:06:15 usually just normal items, but still 18:06:34 I actually didn't realize how many there were until now 18:08:15 the hidden altar one was probably the worst. startscum for any god on d:1 if you know the vault to look for 18:08:22 crawl has a lot of history, and paradigms change sometimes... 18:08:55 yeah. Hidden stuff was more defensible when divinations existed, too 18:09:37 -!- ColloquyUser has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:06 i mentioned this before, but hidden stuff can be made to work. im not sure its possible in crawl, though. 18:10:23 in binding of isaac the secret rooms are pretty great imo 18:10:42 They require resources to search for, which is why they work 18:10:53 yes, also you cant backtrack to earlier levels 18:10:57 (Well, resources or the X-ray vision) 18:11:05 evilmike: thanks for fixing dpeg_entry_castle especially 18:11:06 which is really the reason im not sure it can be made to work in crawl 18:11:28 The placement algorithm is also a little spoilery 18:11:54 dtsund: theres a bunch of other stuff too, like the fetus (shots=bombs), and at least three more items in the expansion 18:12:14 Ipecac, Epic Fetus, Pyro... 18:12:26 dtsund: the placement algorithm is spoilery on purpose im sure 18:12:35 yes, those :) 18:13:06 Skeleton Key + Bombs Are Key too, but that existed before the expansion 18:13:28 yeah. not sure that is worth it, though. probably. 18:13:52 I think the number one thing in that game that might be interesting in Crawl-ish games is the treasure rooms, and how some of them grant things with permanent upsides and downsides 18:14:17 Well, treasure rooms and devil deals 18:14:46 treasure rooms is just guaranteeing some loot and reducing random loot 18:15:06 I was more meaning the specific designs of certain items 18:15:23 binding of isaac has some really good items, yeah 18:15:28 If Ipecac shows up, you either have to take it on that floor or not, and there are serious upsides and downsides 18:15:35 Something like that could be done in a portal vault in Crawl 18:15:42 having used it i think its probably not worth it 18:15:53 an augmentation portal vault would be pretty cool 18:15:55 fetus on the other hand id definitely take 18:16:00 It's definitely not worth it if you take the Cat o' Nine Tails or the Speed Ball 18:16:03 magic wizard surgery or something 18:16:08 Those make it borderline unusable. 18:16:09 alefury: personally I don't have a huge problem with secret doors if they're used well 18:16:10 get a third eye implanted! 18:16:17 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:21 alefury: but, I understand the reasons for removing them, and would be fine with that 18:16:26 Eronarn: That's one of the things you can get in Isaac. 18:16:28 and that's the way things are going right now 18:17:25 evilmike: i think they dont work well in crawl. the current version can work in certain situations, but there are very few (mostly that hell ending, but the door locations should be telegraphed more) 18:18:00 One example of something that'd translate easily: the Pact. Permanent and significant health reduction, but increased attack in exchange. 18:18:00 versions that require resources just promote backtracking, so they wont work without a clock (brogue does this, but it has a tight food clock) 18:18:32 pact god......... 18:18:47 Actually, it's a deal with the devil. 18:19:04 Making deals with the devil grants powerful items, but permanently reduces max health. 18:19:08 i think galehar's idea would work fine for traps 18:19:15 yes, traps are easier 18:19:29 it would also simplify the game a bit, since it would make searching obsolete 18:19:39 you never backtrack for traps (unless youre a hunter with no ammo maybe) 18:19:49 traps should not generate items, period 18:20:19 yeah good idea 18:20:37 Problem I have with that is that optimal play, when traversing already-known territory, becomes "keep painstaking track of the squares you've already stepped on, and avoid stepping on other squares if feasible" 18:20:46 throwing nets should be easier to find, to compensate. that's all i can think of 18:20:58 i actually wonder if we should do away with placed traps altogether 18:21:03 make trappiness a property of the level 18:21:19 you have a chance to trigger a trap in a high tension situation 18:21:42 i don't like mechanical traps but I think others are fine 18:21:49 -!- eeviac_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:23:42 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:27:46 -!- ColloquyUser has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:28:42 * Grunt glances in. 18:29:02 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:35 like, zot traps work best as fixed features (they create a sort of "hostile terrain" effect). Shafts, teleport traps, and alarms create tension, so you wouldn't need (or want, imo) to tie those to some kind of "trappiness" mechanic 18:29:43 The only traps that really register with me are arrow and spear traps (for if I need ammunition / a polearm), teleport traps, and Zot traps. 18:30:03 also, shafts and teleport traps can work to your advantage if you discover them, which is also good 18:30:04 Oh, and the occasional shaft for disposing of monsters. 18:31:48 what's good about shafts (and to a lesser extent, teleports) is that they tend to dump you into hostile terrain 18:31:58 this is so, so much better than "you take a bit of damage" 18:32:05 * Grunt recalls landing next to Pikel once courtesy of a shaft trap. 18:32:06 evilmike: i like the idea of hostile terrain... what if we made zot traps spawn a bunch of zot traps around them when you step on them? 18:32:29 Idea: Zot traps move when you activate them. 18:32:45 ...perhaps they move onto the tile you stepped on it from. 18:32:47 I think they work fine as the "random miscast" traps that they are 18:33:08 Eronarn: Might reward tloc too much 18:33:15 what I'd prefer to see is a hostile summoning trap, that basically casts shadow creatures. I've seen an example mocked up with lua before, although it's never been in the game 18:33:16 That is, the ability to cast Blink at all 18:33:35 Hm, I'm tempted to try implementing such a thing now. 18:33:45 It might work better than that fog trap I did up recently. :p 18:33:56 evilmike: non-test spawner 18:34:16 Grunt: like I said, that fog one would work better if you used regular gas traps (you can place them via subvaults, if you make a trivial edit) 18:34:30 Can I use the message, "You are momentarily blinded by a flash of light!" for a summon trap? <____< 18:34:41 why? 18:34:48 not unless it actually blinds you :P (bad idea) 18:34:56 * Grunt looks around for someone else who gets the joke. :p 18:35:19 also, one of the reasons I didn't like the lua implementation is it used a pressure plate. This is supposed to be magical 18:35:26 I get it! 18:35:43 a massive chaos vortex trap would be pretty awesome 18:35:50 like a twister, but with chaos clouds 18:36:05 -!- Nomi_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:36:08 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:10 actually, hmm... 18:36:11 -!- Nomi_ is now known as Nomi 18:36:22 vortexes are kind of crap; what if we generalized tornado and made them use it? 18:36:28 not that size, but that kind of effect 18:36:34 evilmike, with the fog traps, I intended for the room to *stay* lethal after the trap is triggered; the gas traps tend to dissipate too quickly. 18:36:48 Grunt: someone has been playing brogue? 18:36:50 This is especially the case with, say, the noxious fumes version. 18:37:02 alefury: I beat it once or twice when a new version comes out. Doesn't hold my interest beyond that 18:37:14 i meant grunt, because long duration gas traps 18:37:27 alefury, have you seen the vault in question? 18:37:38 i havent beaten it yet, i like it every time i play it but somehow it doesnt really hold my interest either 18:37:43 Grunt: no 18:38:02 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5844 18:38:05 It's the first in grunt_fog_traps.des. 18:38:26 (Incidentally, I think kilobyte is misreading 0s as 8s in deathspiral, based on that note.) 18:38:45 alefury: I could make a long list of problems I see in brouge (note, its one of my favourite roguelikes). But in one sentence: it's very easy. 18:38:59 An easy Roguelike? That's treasonous. 18:38:59 :p 18:39:48 evilmike: HEY! i havent beaten it yet! 18:40:04 well, it's easy once you "figure it out" 18:40:07 didnt play it that much, though, so... 18:40:33 my main problem seems to be im not careful, which also kills be all the time in crawl :) 18:40:41 Eronarn: spatial vortices are distortion, not chaos 18:40:54 also i tend to not care enough about the food clock (my crawl experience is not doing me any favors here) 18:40:57 Eronarn: they'd need to be rebranded as chaos vortices, and probably removed as a miscast effect (which is mostly what they are intented for) 18:41:23 ...speaking of deathspiral, evilmike, I'd be interested in your opinion on it 18:41:26 . 18:41:46 actually I think spatial vortices work well as a miscast effect, they have a nice "get the hell out of here" effect without being as murderous as eldritch tentacles 18:42:03 Grunt: i was wondering which one was the one with the 14 orbs of fire 18:42:16 alefury, that's kilobyte's misreading of deathspiral's monster placement :p 18:42:32 Grunt: I think it looks good for D. For other branches, I bet it gets rejected the majority of the time, especially in Zot 18:42:34 I suppose it's theoretically possible for 14 orbs of fire to be generated there, but the chances of that are negligible. 18:42:41 oh, huh 18:42:47 i guess it's because i never let myself get hit by them 18:43:14 evilmike, it did occur to me that it's probably a bit on the large side, but I do like the idea of it being a prominent central feature. 18:43:39 having multiple vortex sizes could work also 18:43:55 small spatial vortex, large spatial vortex 18:43:59 * Grunt goes to crank up the generation probability to see if it can be placed reliably in other branches... 18:44:17 Grunt: well, there are two problems with placing large vaults in sub-brances. 1. they won't be primary vaults. 2. if it's too large, it might overshadow the branch ending 18:45:25 i think overshadowing the branch endings is fine if its rare 18:46:56 the first issue is more serious.. I'm pretty sure this spiral vault will almost always fail to place in Zot 18:47:25 (make sure you are using a debug build to see the messages) 18:48:00 dtsund: re devil deals, crawl kind of has that with gods. they are pretty much permanent in 3 rune games, and they provide huge benefits, but impose restrictions on your playstyle. Some gods have this more than others (Chei, good gods, Jiyva) 18:51:36 good night :) 18:51:38 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:13:51 -!- Mottie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:34 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 19:16:25 So evilmike, it turns out that deathspiral has a hard time getting placed anywhere, even in D. 19:16:45 I'm putting together a smaller version of it that should hopefully work better. :| 19:21:48 it should work fine in D 19:22:11 keep in mind even if you give it as super high weight, it usually won't get placed (because of primary_dummy) 19:22:38 how come it is so big though? 19:22:52 unless I'm missing some . transform 19:27:54 evilmike, I consistently see it failing to place the map in the debug messages. 19:33:33 Grunt: 0 produce nastier monsters than 8 in Zot 19:36:53 I'm aware of the 8/9 issues with deep dungeon branches, but 8 isn't really being used in the conventional sense here. 19:37:12 (For those branches, at least.) 19:47:24 * Grunt pokes evilmike with a mini_deathspiral. 19:57:59 <|amethyst> Grunt: do you have a log of the rejection messages? 19:58:14 <|amethyst> Grunt: I'm wondering if it's something that's fixable with the large version 19:59:35 -!- eeviac_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120601175215]] 20:02:42 <|amethyst> depending on the problem, you could try giving it "transparent", for example.... Since it's a stair vault anyway, I don't think it would necessarily be a problem to force the player to traverse the vault to get from one side of the level to another 20:05:18 -!- ColloquyUser has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:16 |amethyst, it merely says "Bad vault place". 20:08:56 <|amethyst> what are the numbers after that? 20:09:11 e.g., 20:09:12 "Bad vault place: (23,13) dim (40,40)" 20:09:41 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:46 in D? 20:14:43 I had yet another bad idea for the Abyss -- areas of normal looking dungeon melting into chaos 20:16:34 <|amethyst> bmh: that sort of happens when you are first abyssed 20:16:43 |amethyst: I know, I wrote that part ;) 20:17:04 <|amethyst> oh, right :) 20:18:11 evilmike: yes, in D. 20:18:21 The abyss, while horrifying, is sort of uniform and boring 20:18:27 -!- ColloquyUser has quit [Quit: ColloquyUser] 20:18:33 Grunt: I haven't noticed that 20:18:34 -!- evablue has joined ##crawl-dev 20:18:39 hey 20:18:40 are you sure it's not printing that message for a minivault? 20:18:44 If we could have islands of normal looking dungeon separated by seething chaos it might be more interesting 20:18:46 im having some problems playing 20:18:55 I cant get the dev builds to work 20:18:59 or connect to CAO 20:19:15 can anyone help me? 20:19:17 evablue: Are you connected to the internet? 20:19:21 yes 20:19:24 evilmike: considering it's talking about rotating the map immediately before some instances of this, I doubt it. 20:19:28 obviously im talking to you 20:19:34 ^_^ 20:19:40 on the internet 20:19:47 <|amethyst> you said "i dled them and it isnt working" 20:19:51 <|amethyst> could you be more specific? 20:19:56 i install 20:19:58 i open 20:20:02 it autocloses 20:20:06 it fails to fully open 20:20:12 this is the console version 20:20:12 <|amethyst> Windows? 20:20:16 yes 20:20:24 <|amethyst> if you run it from the command line, does it print an error message? 20:20:26 also i live in china so that may be why i cant play on cao 20:20:29 anyone know? 20:20:45 i saw an error message about database once 20:20:58 i would look up running it on command line but the command line is chinese on this computer 20:21:23 <|amethyst> evablue: try deleting the "db" directory under your "saves" directory 20:21:30 <|amethyst> not sure where precisely it is on Windows 20:22:06 ... 20:22:29 I removed a CHANCE header that I'd been using for testing purposes and suddenly deathspiral is placing. 20:22:32 * Grunt headtilts. 20:22:37 haha 20:23:08 there is no db directory in saves 20:23:22 <|amethyst> evablue: hm 20:24:04 <|amethyst> try running it from the command line then... crawl's error messages should still be in English even if the system is in Chinese 20:24:26 yeah i know i need to navigate the menus and remember how to use command line 20:25:01 Grunt: yeah, CHANCE: 100% doesn't behave quite like you'd expect 20:25:35 -!- clouded_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:26:46 Anyway, evilmike, it seems to be as you first thought: it places reliably in D and effectively never in branches. 20:27:14 Grunt: for testing this, you either want to give it an extremely high weight (D:26 is convenient because it always tries to place a vault) or use PLACE 20:27:42 * Grunt nods. 20:27:51 That is what I'm doing right now. <_< 20:28:08 it's useful if you want to regenerate the level a ton of times 20:31:11 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:31:19 ok i use dir, cd, and what was the command to open? 20:31:23 in command line 20:31:36 <|amethyst> whatever the name of the executable is 20:31:46 yeah what do i type 20:31:48 <|amethyst> "crawl" I guess, unless it's something like "crawl-console" 20:31:49 just the name and go? 20:31:54 <|amethyst> yeah 20:33:44 it runa on command line but not as an executable 20:33:49 runs on command line 20:33:52 any ideas? 20:34:01 <|amethyst> what do you mean? 20:34:01 maybe my computer is blocking it? but .10 works 20:34:11 when i open the program in command line it works 20:34:21 when i try to open it regularly it doesnt work 20:34:30 <|amethyst> odd 20:34:32 so maybe it has something to do with this computer 20:34:55 <|amethyst> I have no clue what would cause that 20:35:13 i remember having a problem such as this once with something about programs not ready 20:35:44 -!- bmh has left ##crawl-dev 20:36:29 <|amethyst> hm.... maybe someone else around is more familiar with Windows than I am 20:37:10 n/m it suddenly started working 20:37:15 -!- evablue has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:38:20 -!- eeviac_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:33 Anyway, _deathspiral works well enough in D, and _mini_deathspiral seems to work just about anywhere (not completely reliably, but good enough as far as I'm concerned). 20:42:56 I'm thinking _deathspiral should be set only to appear in D and _mini_deathspiral can keep its current set of locations. 20:43:52 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:57 that sounds fine. the mini version is small enough 20:44:18 also got another funny idea -- what if teleport traps weren't uniformly random but were distributed around a point that did a random walk around the dungeon 20:44:25 one concern about the large version is it doesn't place anything in the spiral itself, so you're just relying on it to be populated normally. this might be alright 20:44:44 That thought did cross my mind, but populating it normally seems to be pretty effective in my experience. 20:44:57 most of it is going to be empty 20:48:14 ... 20:48:23 Just looking at it again, I'm getting less monsters generated there than I remember. 20:48:41 it's not going to be any fewer than any other part of the level 20:48:42 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:48 but basically, most of the vault is "furniture" 20:49:27 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:40 Well, the idea here is that one of the doors gets opened, and the player needs to retreat through the spiral while fighting the monsters. 20:49:55 ...which doesn't leave them very much on the way in >_> 20:50:05 I think I could justify adding a few more 0s in. 20:50:19 you actually give the player some nice corridors to fight in, at the middle 20:50:30 retreating would be a tactical mistake, in a lot of cases 20:50:35 That's also true. 20:51:05 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:52:37 if you want an example of a vault which (imo) does the "retreating through a wide corridor thing" well, take a look at minmay_nested_s in large_abstract.des 20:53:16 your spiral vault seems more like a "lots of monsters in a single room" type vault, with some cool looking decoration surrounding it 20:55:07 Well, I do think I'm more looking for a "I need to fight through THAT!?" reaction than the subsequent battle. 20:55:10 Heh. 20:57:43 -!- Dixie has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:00:17 And, well, if I wanted to do the "tactical assault through wide corridors" type of vault, I think I've already managed that with _spider_rune_parallel, if the people who have played through it so far are indicative of what to expect in general. 21:00:44 -!- eeviac_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120601175215]] 21:06:25 -!- ColloquyUser has joined ##crawl-dev 21:08:42 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 21:24:21 -!- ColloquyUser has quit [Quit: ColloquyUser] 21:29:57 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:29:57 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:30:01 -!- lodestone has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:47 -!- lodestone has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:27 -!- MakMorn has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:56:25 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:23:53 -!- eeviac_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:26:41 -!- ddee has joined ##crawl-dev 22:26:58 -!- ddee is now known as _dd 22:27:24 Unlinked item: abyssal rune of Zot (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5855) by twelwe 22:27:33 -!- neunon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:57 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:59 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48:43 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:32 Debian builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2537-gab6943a 23:27:22 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:34:29 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:45:52 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 23:50:02 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:59:25 -!- Grunt has quit [Quit: leaving]