00:00:04 -!- Grunt has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:04:58 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2174-g3afda02 (33) 00:26:34 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2174-g3afda02 00:30:04 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:46:26 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:42 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:52 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:50 -!- SamB__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:00 -!- SamB_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:31:38 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:00 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:35:02 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 01:40:13 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:09:55 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:12:24 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:50 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:19 anyone here want to help me debug a crash? 02:49:11 nm, i got it =) 02:54:17 still working on autopickup menu? 02:54:30 I'm looking at your patches 03:05:52 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:40 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 03:33:08 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39:23 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:41:18 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:45:03 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 04:09:14 -!- varmin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:48 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:24:33 Thann: on mantis, you posted "1. Invert the selection system so that selected=force-pickup." then said you made the change 04:24:50 but selected items still means "no autopickup" 04:25:03 hmm 04:25:12 1 sec 04:27:45 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:28:01 -!- Thann has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28:48 also, help line still says "select to disable" instead of select to toggle 04:28:54 -!- Thann has joined ##crawl-dev 04:29:06 xfce crashed lol 04:29:18 anyway 04:29:59 With all the patches for me when an item has the '+' its getting auto-picked up 04:30:39 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client] 04:31:41 and i agree with kilobyte on the 'order matters issue' 04:31:42 hmm, looks like I did something wrong when merging the 4th patch 04:31:44 never mind 04:32:00 yeah sorry there are so many patches... 04:32:18 I will try to be more concise in the future 04:32:22 what is it about "order matters"? 04:33:18 Thann: learn to use git rebase -i and git commit --amend. It's very easy to merge patches, edit order,... 04:34:02 you should get a 'merge failed' message on one of the patches 04:34:25 in tag-version.cc 04:35:09 the order is as follows TAG_MINOR_SUNLIGHT, TAG_MINOR_AUTOPICKUP_TABLE 04:35:39 and i have used those featues before, but i get ahead of my self and upload the patches 04:36:19 since i cant delete the patches from mantis I dont want to confuse people as to which patches should be applied 04:36:50 i should just make eatch patch monolithic hoever 04:38:12 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 04:38:22 I can delete stuff on mantis if you ask me 04:38:27 if you want something deleted from mantis just ask someone here, or post a "please delete ____" comment 04:38:55 also, if you upload incremental patches, it's easier if you number them 000x 04:39:13 like how git format-patches does 04:41:19 noted. 04:48:31 why _ for help? It calls he pickup/drop help and none of the shortcut work in this menu 04:54:37 that one is actually from the current '\' screen, but it should be changed to ? 04:55:06 i dont follow 04:55:23 _ also calls the help screen in the drop menu, probably because ? is taken (select all scrolls) 04:55:26 '?' selects all scrolls 04:55:34 ahh yes 04:56:52 maybe its useful to keep that in the autopickup menu too, i dunno 04:58:25 maybe. It's certainly much less useful than in the drop/pickup menu. However, inheritence might make it tricky to remove 04:58:39 in any case, the help should be specific or removed 04:58:53 i will make it specific 05:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2174-g3afda02 05:01:36 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:10:10 I am curious as to why the crawl wiki on chaosforge. are you guys buddys with kornel? 05:10:54 None of the current dev is really involved with the chaosforge wiki 05:11:28 Thann: don't forget to run checkwhite before commit 05:14:28 I feel like a noob for not knowing what that is =/ does it make sure their are no trailing whitespaces and turn tabs into sppaces? 05:14:49 yes 05:15:02 thanks for the heads up 05:17:52 ??badwiki 05:17:52 badwiki[1/17]: An old wiki (with lots of out of date and incorrect info; enter at your own risk): http://chaosforge.org/crawl/ There is an interesting essay about the relevance of the Chaosforge wiki located here: http://eronarn.info/misc/wiki.html 05:20:26 hahahahaha 05:21:43 classy 05:22:03 the wiki is useful for some things 05:22:07 but some things of it are outdated/badadvice 05:22:15 like the rings page links to a spoiler for rings...dated to crawl 0.5 05:30:03 im in a volcano and the auto-pathing is going crazy. is that common? 05:30:21 is there lots of LOS-obscuring smoke? 05:30:23 if so, that might be it 05:31:09 ahh yeah that must be it 05:41:12 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:09 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:45:10 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 05:55:23 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 05:59:26 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:03:02 galehar: how's it look? 06:04:58 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:56 -!- Guest41611 is now known as ChrisOelmueller 06:19:30 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:20:12 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:43:09 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:44:50 -!- Ripplez has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:30 hi. id like to suggest something in terms of the level design for early levels. i had introduced a friend to crawl and i was watching him play through the beginning levels when i realised something 06:46:35 -!- Gmork__ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:37 even though it was his first time playing crawl and it was his first day playing roguelikes, the first sign of trouble came at d:4. and i looked around and i noticed this sentiment by others as well as with myself after looking back that the very beginning of crawl seems kind of wasted 06:47:04 Ripplez: early monster generation is not super awesome, yes 06:47:11 good morning, is anyone here a tiles developer/gimp user? 06:47:24 i understand that they also provide loot and piety and such-like before the game starts proper, as an introduction but ive actually had people put off because the very beginning rather than introducing you to the horrors that lie beyond the stairs, tend to be very bland 06:47:53 as a result, i wanted to suggest that d1 and d2 at least be largely vault levels, with combat in them 06:48:13 Gmork__: maybe kilobyte can help you, I don't think anyone else who makes tiles is currently in here. 06:48:27 just ask your question, you might get an answer :) 06:48:33 <|amethyst> I have committed other peoples' tiles before 06:48:39 <|amethyst> not designed any myself, though 06:48:46 <|amethyst> Ripplez: of what difficulty? 06:48:48 i am aware that vaults already exist for thematic reasons but i mean a vault that actually spawns randomly but closely-tied enemies and certain guaranteed locations so that the early levels can be more streamlined but also very hard 06:48:52 ripplez: D:1-3 tedium is why o, tab, G, etc exist 06:49:06 <|amethyst> lots of people die on D:1-3 currently 06:49:07 I like the idea of the early levels starting off with a vault 06:49:15 but doesn't that make it even more tedious once you know how it works 06:49:15 okay thanks, I've never used GIMP and only care to use it to make tiles art for crawl, so I was hoping someone on here could give me a quick and dirty tutorial 06:49:20 (unless it is a very well randomized vault) 06:49:30 yes but they dont need to exist and more importantly, it has actively had people of various roguelike inclinations simply not want to play because they feel it is reflective of the design philosophy 06:49:42 which nowhere else is it like that but from d1 to d4, it is an active deterrent 06:50:02 on a side note, I have about 5-6 friends who completely lost interest in crawl after dying to "stupid" things on d:1-d:5 ish 06:50:06 it would also help address the turn 1 kobold with blowgun + curare insta-die at exp level 1 06:50:25 Gmork__: ive used gimp before, but i think any tutorial you could find with google would be better than the one i could give you 06:50:31 which is probably half them being unskilled, and half them dying to d:1 kobolds with blowguns and d:2 centaurs 06:50:53 i have seen like a map of how the zot level 5 worked and i noticed that it also has controls for what enemies to spawn and around where 06:50:59 d:2 centaurs are pretty rare :) 06:51:08 yes, the vault system in crawl is turing complete 06:51:09 (also i hate them and think they are stupid) 06:51:17 because of the randomness of the creature generation along with the blandness of the monsters themselves, the fact is that d1 to d4, deaths generally come from very stupid things 06:51:24 once you gain some awareness of how to play 06:51:35 while also still feeling tedious every other time 06:51:55 well i'm just generalizing, I just think d1-d4 has a much higher rate of absurd deaths than anywhere else 06:52:05 Gmork__: not really 06:52:05 i dont think it would change all that much in terms of design philosophy but it would essentially present a more stream-lined challenge at the very start 06:52:16 so that you can get into the game and immerse yourself more 06:52:20 <|amethyst> something like Sprint but not as hard? 06:52:21 !lg * s=ckiller place=d:1 06:52:23 516101 games for * (place=d:1): 174320x quitting, 88096x a hobgoblin, 79479x a kobold, 30358x a goblin, 21977x a giant gecko, 21666x a jackal, 13330x a gnoll, 11726x a giant cockroach, 11103x an ooze, 10039x a rat, 7850x a giant bat, 6447x pois, 4386x a giant newt, 3331x a snake, 2672x a bat, 2324x a worm, 2164x a megabat, 1888x cloud, 1851x trap, 1734x a small snake, 1581x draining, 1317x a giant... 06:52:26 yes 06:52:42 people die to normal d:1 stuff all the time 06:52:45 my friend,t he one who had played roguelikes for the first time that entire day, simply pressed o and tabbed through everything 06:52:48 but I'm not a dev, sorry for interjecting 06:52:49 also, i think that is not a good idea 06:53:00 im also not a dev and i interject all the time :) 06:53:05 and while that is why those functions exist, it doesnt change the fact that those dungeon levels are incredibly tedius 06:53:07 lol 06:53:09 everyone is allowed to discuss stuff 06:53:32 it is not about dying. it is about the tedium involved. it truly adds nothing but a place to simply get loot before you get to the harder parts. or you find a unique 06:53:37 what was your friend playing though? a lot of new players start with something like a TrBe which you can pretty easily just o tab through the early game with 06:53:44 it is true alot of people die at early levels and the vaults will not change that 06:54:13 what it will change is to add a factor that bumps the difficulty that is taken away by the fact that only vanilla monsters spawn on d1 ~ d4 06:54:29 it shifts the focus from dying to random giant newts because your simply bad 06:54:33 to dying because your tactics were bad 06:54:34 my issue with early floors 06:54:51 because in a vault, you can have tactics. the random monster spawns will help make it not easily solvable 06:54:57 is it's the only point in crawl where I feel like there's a good chance of artificial difficulty 06:55:08 as it is currently, you do not get a chance to practise or use any tactics 06:55:14 2 main problems with your idea: 1. it would be a huge amount of work to make enough (or strongly enough randomized) maps to make this not repetitive after just a few games and 2. I'm not even sure it would be better than current early D 06:55:16 you tab and pray the kobold doesnt have distortion 06:55:16 <|amethyst> tactics like what? 06:55:21 or you get smarter and you dont die at all 06:55:34 sort of, hey, we don't really have anything interesting to put in these levels so we'll just throw in random kobolds that can red poison you, or early gnoll packs, etc. 06:55:38 basic things. it is still d1~d4 after all. but learning to use corridors better. learning to use ranged ammo better 06:55:57 even a small section like have a room with a pillar in the middle and 2 goblins with swords 06:56:02 + a goblin with a sling 06:56:12 can make you have to think without bumping the difficulty by too much 06:56:17 tweaking monster generation in early D to be more interesting and have fewer surprise deaths would be better imo 06:56:23 this makes me think 06:56:23 agreed 06:56:24 'make easy sprints' 06:56:34 even if it's a bit more tedious 06:56:58 that don't fast forward through the game but instead require different tactics to succeed at 06:57:05 and they'd probably start you off with a set character in each 06:57:14 in a sense yes. there is alot of opportunity for very nice streamlined play that can evolve using vaults. it also shows new players or people who play other games but come to this 06:57:19 mini-sprints, maybe. idk 06:57:26 that this game is about tactics and they dont need to get to d6 to see that 06:57:28 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57:58 one decent way something like this could be done is with guaranteed serial vaults for early D 06:58:00 I'm a fan of actually increasing starting loot 06:58:22 i feel this suggestion has alot of merit. and as an example, i would like to put forward "the small room, one pillar in the middle, 2 goblins with swords + 1 goblin with sling" as the example of the kind of vault i had in mind 06:59:16 all other considerations like increasing loot, decreasing spawns or whatever can come after this base has been looked at. but i feel this base can help ease new players into what crawl is about, reduce the tedium of the early levels and still provide the chance to kill stupid players and give decent loot and piety we all like 06:59:26 thank you for reading. ill leave this here now 06:59:27 elliptic MarvinPA : opinions on this stuff? 07:00:26 one change I never understood, why not have every character start with one ID'd potion of curing? 07:00:36 <|amethyst> there needs to be a lot of variety in the vaults though 07:00:44 <|amethyst> D:1--4 is the most-seen part of the game 07:00:56 Gmork__: that would be a *huge* starting bonus 07:02:04 Gmork__: even just having them IDed and not starting with one would be pretty huge 07:02:33 mmm that's true i forgot it would ID the rest of them 07:03:06 what about starting with one scroll of teleport? 07:03:48 probably the same argument 07:04:16 <|amethyst> not as huge since scrolls aren't as dangerous to ID 07:04:24 that's why I suggested it 07:04:40 I'd still think that would be a huge boon early on 07:04:48 <|amethyst> a huge boon to good players 07:04:52 as a good player would just hold on to that 07:04:55 <|amethyst> without really helping the bad ones very much 07:04:56 and not waste it 07:05:21 well I guess it depends on what you're trying to target with any changes 07:05:51 I would think you're trying to reduce the difficulty a bit for newer/worse players so they can so past d:3 more than once every 50 deaths 07:06:19 rather than giving players who can already consistently do that a hand out 07:07:34 <|amethyst> Ripplez: could you write up something on the wiki? 07:07:38 i feel that argument strays from mine. so while i cannot and should not ask you not to say it, please distinguish it from mine 07:07:43 <|amethyst> Ripplez: I think I'm the only dev who's awake right now 07:07:44 i could. i am very bad with words 07:07:55 but i can try yes 07:08:00 <|amethyst> Ripplez: just copy-paste the IRC logs :) 07:08:03 ok 07:08:33 <|amethyst> (well, maybe remove the ""s and put it into paragraphs, but...) 07:09:08 yeah i understand 07:09:18 ive copied it. i have to eat now but ill start on it in a bit 07:10:23 Anyway, if I do make some tiles art, can someone tell me how/where to submit it? 07:10:53 mantis 07:11:36 <|amethyst> Gmork__: btw, if you have a copy of the source, see docs/develop/tiles_creation.txt 07:11:54 <|amethyst> Gmork__: hopefully that's what you were looking for 07:11:54 thank you 07:12:40 <|amethyst> Mantis has an "Upload: Graphics" category 07:12:58 <|amethyst> it seems usual to upload one big sprite sheet and let the devs cut it up 07:13:07 that's exactly what I was looking for 07:13:27 <|amethyst> but I personally prefer getting individual images, as that means less for me to screw up 07:14:26 i'll keep that in mind 07:17:10 hmm i dont know if i should add a new argument for my idea 07:17:57 bad players are bad for specific reasons, whether or not they dont know not to commit to fights they cant win, they dont know how to abuse corners or corridors or they dont use their consumables and stuff 07:18:19 what about a set of tactics tutorials 07:18:31 the early combat vaults idea basicly forces them into a situation where they cant progress if they dont really solve the puzzle that each vault provides 07:18:42 and in doing so, acts as a mini-tutorial 07:18:44 'here are some things you might like to do in XXX circumstances. here is X tough thing that you will find difficult if you meet early on, try using Y to kill him, it may not work every time however' 07:18:49 by forcing them to confront their badness 07:18:56 the problem about 'early combat vaults' 07:19:00 is if they're designed to be yay hard 07:19:04 they might be TOO hard for challenge builds 07:19:07 but what if some of them are too brutal for certain combos? 07:19:10 exactly 07:19:12 but if they're doable by challenge builds, too easy for op combos 07:19:14 also 07:19:16 *so 07:19:20 then you use your other abilities 07:19:22 it makes more sense to have scenarios where you are forced to be this 07:19:24 this and this 07:19:27 like slinking away downstairs 07:19:29 so the only modifier on outcomes is skill 07:19:50 <|amethyst> Ripplez: you need to distinguish between training new players, making the early game interesting for new players, and keeping the game interesting for old players 07:20:03 well it will still hold older players attention more than it does now 07:20:06 i can guarantee that 07:20:13 <|amethyst> it seems you are indtending to address 1 and 2, but those are different things 07:20:15 because the worst case scenario will be that you o and tab through everything 07:20:20 which is exactly what we do now 07:20:24 <|amethyst> Yeah, I think addressing 2 also addresses 3 07:20:24 also stairdancing and pillardancing are key tactics but do you really want to just come right out and say "this is what you need to be doing to survive this game" ? 07:20:28 so at worst, we come back to what it is right now 07:20:30 <|amethyst> or at least can 07:20:33 even just increasing variety would be a great thing 07:20:59 <|amethyst> the other thing is that it can be difficult to teach a particular lesson in a way that works for all (or even most) combos 07:21:16 forcing players to use certain tactics seems a bit heavy handed 07:21:21 no. like thats why i gave my example wth the two melee, one ranged goblin with a pillar. it teachs you to abuse line of sight. if you cant, it also teachs you to run. if you cant, it teachs you to use one mosnter to bodyblock 07:21:23 <|amethyst> not just op vs challenge, but a wizard with Call Imp is going to approach a situation very differently from a melee naga 07:21:30 I'd love to have a tutorial challenge, 'Hall of Infinite Sigmunds' where you kill sigmund over and over with different characters, different resources and different terrains 07:21:46 that example actually also shows how you can have one vault actually challenge you to use diff tricks to solve it but is actually solveable in many ways 07:21:47 now that would be a good tutorial 07:21:48 there would need to be some kind of extra lives mechanic built into it for when the rng rolls wrong and you die 07:22:04 <|amethyst> Ripplez: I think that one's good, but the question is whether we can come up with enough such things 07:22:34 that is true. i am confident that the bastardry of people like minmay and hangedman can accomplish that but it isnt a trivial question 07:22:40 <|amethyst> Ripplez: but if you're playing a trbe... you tab that vault 07:22:42 maybe i'm completely alone here but I think d1-d4 would be greatly improved if you could just remove the really ridiculous spawns and replace them with something equally difficult but completely maneagable with smart moves 07:22:43 also, a goblin with a sling does, like, zero damage 07:23:15 yes. because thats what trbes do. if the only thing you do IS tab,t hen tab away. but there might be other vaults you cant. something involving water and monsters from the sides throwing darts 07:23:43 you cant tab as a trbe over water. not yet at least 07:23:47 I personally think ranged monsters should pretty much be nonexistant in the first couple floors 07:23:55 i don't get the talk in here really 07:24:08 for me, learning crawl is about picking when to fight and when to not fight 07:24:21 <|amethyst> What ChrisOelmueller says too 07:24:32 agreed, that's why when I run into certain things on early floors insta kills me I get pretty annoyed 07:24:34 then d1~d4 teachs you nothing 07:24:35 changing monster spawns to help everybody survive fights would actively help them to more stupid things 07:24:36 because I'm denied that choice 07:24:42 because you can solve it by fighting and winning everything 07:25:00 i'm definitely not suggesting make d1-d4 easier, just make the difficulty more elegant 07:25:07 that is not my argument. my argument is distinctly different from patashus and gmorks so please dont confuse them 07:25:46 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:26:04 as I said before, the difficulty in d1-d4 feels very artificial to me, either you're tabbing through or you're getting one shot by things 07:26:34 I can apply that argument to most of the game 07:26:38 right, the problem here is that you assume tabbing should be possible and then you get killed when tab was no smart choice 07:26:38 'either I am winning or I am dying' 07:26:42 i'm purely suggesting, remove the things that can insta gib you, and replace them with something very dangerous but easier to manage 07:26:53 although D:1 monsters with draining, holy wrath or dragon slaying should probably not happen 07:26:56 (or distortion, electrocution etc) 07:27:15 that's true, but you could make a strong argument that by d:5 you have a lot more tools to deal with problems 07:27:18 unless i'm like a troll i never fight monsters with glowing weapons on early D 07:27:25 that's exactly what i'm saying 07:27:40 replacing goblins that one shot you with draining and kobolds that red poison you 07:27:45 " unless i'm like a troll i never fight monsters with glowing weapons on early D" 07:27:46 why do those exist? 07:27:56 how about, on D:1 and D:2 only, the game warns you about monsters with ego weapons 07:28:17 <|amethyst> err... doesn't it already? 07:28:19 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:20 it technically already does by telling you its glowing 07:28:21 not identifying it, just saying something like ''s weapon may be more dangerous than it looks...' 07:28:23 <|amethyst> or do you mean big flashing letters 07:28:24 sure, it just says it's glowing or runed 07:28:26 i honestly don't think that would change anything 07:28:35 if you're not paying attention it's not all that different from saying it's normal 07:28:36 idk though 07:28:44 i just don't think it's good at all 07:28:58 it's not really enjoyable difficulty imo 07:29:44 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:30 my argument was actually rooted in the opposite chris 07:30:49 it was that d1~d4 because of the lack of variety in monster spawning, can be very easy to tab through 07:31:22 fr greater ghost rats 07:31:23 and it puts off new players or ppl who are new to crawl specificlly because it seems to just feel skillless and not very engaging. and when your better at the game, it still isnt engaging 07:31:29 i'd be in favor of removing ego weapons from d1-d4 for two reasons; it would remove a lot of tedious deaths, and scoring a strong ego weapon early can have the opposite effect of making early game too easy 07:31:51 as a result, a way to balance it out would be to make early game combat vaults, basicly tactical challenges 07:32:17 so, wait 07:32:22 do we want to make d1-d4 easier 07:32:22 or harder 07:32:24 that might spawn randomly within the vault, of a set of monsters that need you to kinda think through it and not simply tab through 07:32:30 (I guess it's two different people's opinions atm but still) 07:32:38 it is not about easy or hard. it streamlines it and it isnt tedious 07:32:39 again I don't want to speak for ripplez 07:32:47 we're talking about two different things 07:32:51 yes 07:32:55 my opinion is that it shouldn't be made any easier or harder 07:33:07 of course early "tutorial" vaults could help, but after getting the specific trick required for a certain vault that wants to teach tricks, the vault is just as boring as before 07:33:24 just that it should be made more consistent and the difficulty be less artificial 07:33:29 how about allowing more layouts? 07:33:41 well that is why a) the idea is to have diff kinds of vaults, including those vaults you cannot clear immediately and require you to leave the area 07:34:05 for example a vault with a monster a necromancer cant fight or a vault that a berserker cannot tab through or a vault that taxes a wizards mana 07:34:06 i'm totally in love with delve and would also want it used for e.g. tar 07:34:06 I personally think removing early ego weapons would be a good idea 07:34:23 b) the idea is that we have a good selection of vaults 07:34:31 but layout has a huge impact on how a level is perceived, so perhaps this is one source of tedium? 07:34:54 and c) the idea that within each vault monsters can be randomly generated out of a set. for example, a room vault with a pillar in the middle, two goblins with swords and a goblin with a sling 07:35:20 this was my basic example of needing some thought, giving you options like fighting through, using line of sight, using one monster ot block the other 07:35:50 but within this vault, say instead of a goblin with a sling, it spawns a gnoll with a spear. that too is interesting but it requires a little bit more thought 07:36:16 -!- Lubaf has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36:18 if you juggle this with the loot you might get, the fact that some vaults might leak over into others, say you couldnt solve a room with diff rats in it so you backed off and theyre now chasing 07:36:32 it all ties in together. it will be eventually solveable but there were two arguments for that 07:36:33 Stupid question: Why ##crawl-dev? 07:36:48 <|amethyst> Lubaf: huh? 07:36:49 it's for crawl's development and talking about crawl's development 07:36:58 |amethyst: As opposed to just #crawl-dev 07:36:58 a) it will still require a modicum of thought that isnt tabbing and pressing o. currently these levels are solveable as well. they just require two button presses 07:37:01 instead of tactics 07:37:14 and b) the worst case scenario is we wind up where we are now 07:37:21 <|amethyst> I'm not sure why no one registered the channels officially 07:37:28 but wed have the variety for new players and some interest for a little while 07:37:41 and that is the worst case scenario as i see it 07:38:08 i actually thought this through a fair bit, i think it would help the game abit 07:38:09 I don't mean to derail or interupt, but I think if the early floors had no egos and maybe more monster variety/a couple new monsters, the game would essentially do what you're saying by itself 07:38:14 and wouldn't need to be scripted 07:38:52 Hey, 'o' is okay. It makes the early grind much saner. 07:39:03 the actual difficulty, the spread of loot and piety and things can come after but this base idea is what im talking about 07:39:10 and lubaf ties it into what ive been talking about 07:39:14 |amethyst: http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#topicalchannels 07:39:26 ## doesn't mean unregistered (and in fact both channels are registered) 07:39:51 ChrisOelmueller: Then why ##crawl-dev, anyway? 07:39:54 iirc ## means its a free gae 07:39:56 game 07:40:08 <|amethyst> Oh, because "crawl" isn't a trademark 07:40:37 well i won't debate over ChanServ, it's usually not productive to do so :) 07:41:26 Lubaf: or why not #dcss-dev and so on? easy, because somebody started using ##crawl-dev and others followed 07:41:58 how difficulty is it to add new monsters to crawl? 07:42:01 difficult* 07:42:12 not at all, if it's a vault monster 07:42:25 if it's to be added into natural monster generation, somewhat harder 07:42:28 <|amethyst> Gmork__: just adding monsters is easy, but making them interesting is the hard part 07:42:31 (or if it has a whole new ability) 07:42:48 <|amethyst> and, yeah, figuring out the rarity/depth functions is black magic 07:43:01 what about adding a few new monsters that essentially have egos built in, so they are a clear, consistent, interesting threat? 07:43:09 I would like that 07:43:25 to me, early snakes represent a good difficulty 07:43:36 you see the snake, you know it can poison you, you can intelligently deal with the threat 07:43:48 * Lubaf still loves Angband's solution to the "new monster" problem, even as he acknowledges that it's useless for Crawl's purposes. 07:43:50 so what about adding more monsters in with slowing attacks, etc. 07:44:05 some weak status effects 07:44:38 misled! 07:44:58 that way you get the effect of early game egos without 1) the random deaths 2) getting broken egos on the character itself 07:45:30 people will *always* produce deaths of which they think they are random, but totally are not 07:45:41 i know, but let's not discuss that 07:45:55 i'm saying getting one shotted by a draining mace/electricity whip 07:46:00 or poison needles 07:46:15 -!- |amethyst has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:16 A curare kobold comes into view. It is wielding a blowgun. 07:46:19 The curare kobold shouts! 07:46:22 throw those effects on monsters so they are clearly identifiable, remove them from equipment 07:46:25 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:47:31 i dislike ash as metagod for everybody 07:47:32 maybe monsters with a slowing attack, or a mild vampiric 07:47:48 or even weak draining 07:47:51 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:56 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:15 chris: it's not like you'd HAVE ash on D:1-4 07:49:19 and after that ego weapons come in full force 07:49:30 and ash gives you plenty of other great stuff 07:51:43 fewer weapon using monsters and more natural monsters with a brand would be nice IMO. early D vaults too. As long as its still random enough. 07:52:32 that pretty much sums up my opinion 07:52:38 also, a slightly different message for monsters wielding glowing weapons in early D, combined with warning color by default, would be nice. 07:53:10 snakes/orc priests/gnoll packs are a much more interesting challenge over kobolds with poison darts and goblins with draining maces 07:55:15 i'm not sure i want more orc priests and less draining goblins 07:55:22 lol 07:55:25 you get the idea 07:55:55 i'm just suggesting remove ego drops from d1-d3 and instead introduce new monsters with mild versions of those egos built in 07:56:28 but getting a branded weapon is nice on d2 07:56:38 -!- Thann has quit [Quit: sleeep] 07:56:44 to me, that goes just as far in making early game o tab 07:56:48 or boring 07:57:05 and if i know i can take the risk (and it's usually possible to retreat if you plan a bit) why not try to get it? 07:57:24 you could still get them 07:57:28 just after d:3 ish 07:58:07 well, fighting the d:4 ogre would definitely be easier if i'm allowed to find a whatever of poison before 07:58:34 by d:4 your character should be developed enough to handle it i'd say 07:58:44 or run 07:58:52 giving a monster on-hit banishment 07:58:53 that's not really true for most characters, no 07:58:56 by d3 07:59:00 seems ridiculously silly 07:59:02 i approve 07:59:13 certainly not banishment lol 07:59:16 how often does that happen, really 07:59:24 incredibly rarely 07:59:26 but you never forget 07:59:33 slowing, draining, vampiric would be fair game though 07:59:35 that one moment you got banished to the abyss on d2 07:59:39 is the only moment you remember 08:00:29 as long as regular goblins have several magnitudes more kills than distortion monsters, this is nothing to fix imho 08:00:53 sure...distortion isn't really a problem in 99.9% of games 08:00:55 that's not how the human mind works 08:01:01 you remember when things go wrong more strongly than when things go right 08:01:08 why do you think Murphy's Law is a thing that has been coined 08:01:57 Ripplez: isnt that moment you remember much more interesting than the 100 other deaths you forgot because they were to uninteresting regular hobgoblins wielding unbranded clubs? 08:02:09 yes 08:02:17 i dont lose to hobgoblins wielding unbranded clubs 08:02:22 certainly not -1/-1 clubs 08:02:22 early banishment is totally fine imo, getting instakilled by elec weapons is not so cool 08:02:27 certainly not while i was a berserker 08:02:29 others do. 08:02:30 exactly 08:02:31 my life is not on trial here 08:02:45 i'd still think though 08:02:51 Ripplez: okay, maybe not you, maybe not anymore, but people die to them all the time 08:02:59 for example, a very weak caster type monster on d:1 that can cast slow 08:03:03 maybe two of them from two sides, etc 08:03:04 would be interesting 08:03:31 or one that is fairly durable and has vampiric melee, also interesting 08:03:35 but is slow 08:03:37 I think what would help a lot is to have orc priest smite be slightly weaker than every other monster's smite, too 08:03:47 it already is 08:03:47 Right now if the RNG is not in your favour you can die incredibly quickly to one or two orc priests 08:03:54 By being rarer 08:03:54 <|amethyst> Gmork__: slow + melee is not interesting 08:03:56 orc priest (03o) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal | HD: 3 | HP: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil | Res: 06magic(16) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 42 | Sp: pain (d8), cantrip, smiting (7-17), heal other. 08:03:56 %??orc priest 08:03:56 But the worst case is the same 08:03:58 smoke demon (153) | Spd: 9 | Int: normal | HD: 7 | HP: 25-53 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Dam: 8, 5, 5 | 05demonic, 10doors, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(56), 05fire++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 316 | Sp: sticky flame range (3d4), steam ball (3d12), smiting (7-17). 08:03:58 %??smoke demon 08:04:01 7-17 08:04:03 <|amethyst> Gmork__: unless it traps you in a corridor 08:04:04 oh, hm 08:04:08 it isnt? wtf? 08:04:10 I'm thinking orc priests should be 7-10 08:04:12 greater mummy (16M) | Spd: 10 | Int: high | HD: 15 | HP: 183-212 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Dam: 35 | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 9039 | Sp: demon, smiting (7-17), torment symbol, summon undead. 08:04:12 %??greater mummy 08:04:19 thats a bit weird 08:04:24 the thing is tho, how many times do they KEEP dying to it 08:04:28 thats an important question 08:04:30 what about 7-7+HD for smiting 08:04:31 well i'm just throwing out examples, I just think more monster variety+less early egos would help a lot 08:04:46 so orc priests are 7-10, smoke demons are 7-14 and greater mummies are 7-22 08:04:51 maybe keep a very few early game egos for the wtf factor but drop the rate way down 08:04:53 tomb buff, orc nerf 08:04:57 getting owned by a hobgoblin with a club is fine once or twice. but really, how many times do you die to the same monster without going hm. maybe im messing up here 08:04:57 Ripplez: a hobgoblin can just kill you if youre unlucky 08:05:03 just like that. 08:05:13 bad luck is very powerful early on 08:05:25 !killsby bad luck 08:05:30 No games for * (ckiller=bad luck) 08:05:34 you can run away, pillar dance, and try again, but something might wander in, and then youre screwed 08:05:40 dying from bad luck is arguable but it definitely exists more so on early floors than anywhere else 08:05:51 Sigmund comes into view. He is wielding a glowing scythe. Sigmund shouts! Sigmund gestures at you while chanting. You are confused! 08:05:57 sigmund gets to stay though 08:05:59 classic :) 08:06:01 he's cool 08:06:01 I'd definitely be in favor of removing variability from early floors 08:06:02 sigmund is fine imo 08:06:06 sigmund is fine 08:06:07 its good to have enemies 08:06:11