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Evocables that must be equipped in order to evoke them are rendered inoperable. Effects that occur when items are equipped/unequipped (vampirism, distortion, etc.) happen as usual. 07:34:01 <|amethyst> kilobyte: yay 07:34:05 ??suppression[2] 07:34:06 suppression[2/5]: Potions, scrolls, and wands do not need to be equipped to use them, and are therefore unaffected. Entering a suppression aura has no effect on magical effects that were placed upon you before you entered the aura. The base properties of weapons and armor (dam, AC, etc.) are unaffected and enchantments from scrolls of enchant foo are preserved. 07:34:29 <|amethyst> kilobyte: didn't intend to pressure you, just thought you might have overlooked it since you closed the bug 07:34:30 ??suppression[3] 07:34:30 suppression[3/5]: Nemelexites don't need to wield decks to use their powers, so their abilities are unaffected. Fixedarts will also have their magical properties suppressed, but that will take a while to implement. 07:34:39 ??suppression[4] 07:34:40 suppression[4/5]: Open issues: whether levitating over open water using boots of lev upon entering the suppression field causes instadeath (perhaps a warning for moving adjacent to the field will suffice) 07:36:18 Wensley: remember, stuff isn't guaranteed to move only one tile per your one move 07:36:21 it'd be obviously wrong to close bugs before a fix exists, although it's debatable about fixes that are not pushed yet 07:36:52 if you got slowed, moved over water with suppression two squares away, the moth could get two moves and then you would die without a prompt 07:37:34 Eronarn: no "per move" enchantment cares about the enchanter 07:38:00 kilobyte: i mean for the suggested prompt for moving adjacent to stasis field 07:38:18 good point 07:38:40 er... suppression, not stasis :) 07:38:41 does anyone know where the entry point is for when a player presses V to evoke something? 07:39:01 which is to say, V to evoke something equipped, rather than v to evoke something in general 07:39:28 <|amethyst> Wensley: evoke_item(-1) 07:39:40 a more obscure case: what happens if a moth elsewhere on the level is abruptly teleported near you? or if you blink into a suppression field over water? 07:39:54 i think the instakill shouldn't be a thing, cases like that will always pop up 07:40:17 |amethyst: isn't -1 only for when you want to give the player a list of items? 07:40:46 might need to go look at evoke.cc again 07:40:53 <|amethyst> Wensley: wait 07:41:01 <|amethyst> Wensley: so you mean v not V 07:41:13 ..do I? 07:41:15 <|amethyst> Wensley: evoke_item(you.equip[EQ_WEAPON]) 07:41:17 maybe I have those mixed up in my head 07:41:40 maybe something like: add a new ench 'failing_magic_items' when you first enter a suppression field; remove it if at the start of your turn you've exited it 07:41:58 this could be used for lev boots, but possibly other stuff in the future where you don't want suppression to instantly cause failure 07:43:15 "Your boots of levitation switch to backup power." 07:44:36 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:51:21 hm, inserting a check for slot == you.equip[EQ_WEAPON] only blocks the effect if you evoke via v, not if you evoke an equipped weapon via V 07:52:03 kilobyte: text << " Also, kills of demons and living creatures are grant you " "favour in the eyes of Trog."; 07:52:11 <|amethyst> Wensley: why would you insert such a check? 07:52:51 |amethyst: it's paired with a check for suppression. how would you block evocation of a wielded weapon? 07:53:04 s/weapon/item 07:54:28 |amethyst: in any case, the reason for the check was that I saw it in the check for evoking berserk 07:54:47 <|amethyst> either something like the current berserk check; or after the item is selected, something like if (you.suppressed && (slot != you.equip[EQ_WEAPON) || !weapon_reach(*you.weapon())) 07:54:53 <|amethyst> ) 07:55:15 ah, so that's how you check for reaching 07:55:24 <|amethyst> probably the berserk check is fine, since there's no reason to do V if you can't evoke things 07:55:54 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:54 |amethyst: why would we check to see if the slot is *not* the currently equipped weapon, if equipped things are all that we want to affect? 07:57:06 <|amethyst> Wensley: oh, right 07:57:10 <|amethyst> Wensley: you're not blocking wands 07:57:28 yes, that's the current design. never want to discourage consumables 07:57:49 <|amethyst> Wensley: you don't want to just check if it's what they're wielding then 07:57:55 <|amethyst> since they might be wielding a wand 07:58:02 ha, good point 07:58:10 <|amethyst> also, not just weapons 07:58:12 is there some sort of "must be equipped to evoke" property 07:58:16 <|amethyst> evocable blink on items 07:58:48 -!- Siveran_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:09 -!- Siveran has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:59:14 -!- Siveran_ is now known as Siveran 07:59:21 <|amethyst> oh right, those aren't evoked 07:59:23 right, armor/jewelry effects were next, just figured weapons might be easier. obviously it would be nice if such a property existed that we could just test for 07:59:48 I count blink abilities as "magical effects from equipped items", so those need to get blocked too 08:00:04 <|amethyst> right, but I was forgetting those are 'a'ctivated rather than e'v'oked 08:00:30 yes, I was thinking it would be good enough to just prevent those from showing up in the abil menu 08:00:33 <|amethyst> so the only things you'd want to block here are rods and evokable unrands? 08:00:41 <|amethyst> Wensley: that is in abl-show.cc 08:00:47 excellent 08:01:08 we want to block rods, staves, balls, decks (but not if you're using any nemelex power) 08:01:24 <|amethyst> balls? 08:01:30 crystal balls? 08:01:46 are those still in the game, even 08:01:48 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:05 as well as misc items... stone of earth, disc of storms, etc 08:02:17 <|amethyst> Wensley: oh 08:02:29 <|amethyst> Wensley: I thought you wanted to block only things that need to be wielded 08:02:35 don't those? 08:02:45 confess I've never used them 08:02:54 <|amethyst> decks, rods, and unrand weapons require wielding 08:02:57 <|amethyst> others do not 08:02:57 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:03:51 well then, let us cling to our line in the sand. we only need to block decks, rods, staves, and unrands 08:04:13 <|amethyst> I would check in those particular locations in the evoke code then 08:04:58 <|amethyst> if you're suppressed, set a flag and break; at the end, check the flag the way unevokable is currently checked 08:05:19 <|amethyst> staves aren't evokable unless they're unrands or rods 08:05:27 <|amethyst> oh 08:05:30 <|amethyst> right, channelling 08:05:53 <|amethyst> one question is, should it waste a turn to attempt? 08:05:55 <|amethyst> probably not 08:06:08 don't think it should waste a turn, no 08:06:26 <|amethyst> meaning you'd want the zero_turns_taken() rather than turn_is_over branch at the end 08:13:13 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:15:02 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:25 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:00 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:27 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:32 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:26:20 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1875-g37fdb4f (33) 09:30:22 -!- Siveran_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:22 -!- Siveran has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:30:23 -!- Siveran_ is now known as Siveran 09:43:46 -!- kek has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:03 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:04 -!- Pacra_ is now known as Pacra 09:48:06 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:33 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:21 -!- Dixie has joined ##crawl-dev 10:13:01 -!- alefury has quit [] 10:13:05 -!- CedorDark has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:34 -!- Voxxik has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:08 -!- absolutego is now known as absolutego_ 10:30:57 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:44 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:16 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:44:50 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:49:41 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:07 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:51 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:00 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:26:25 03kilobyte * r5121335e23d2 10/crawl-ref/source/hints.cc: Grammar fix. 11:26:36 03kilobyte * rc2f25413ad51 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.reST: Sync manual from the wiki. 11:28:20 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:23 I have a question 11:28:29 I noticed this in the changelog: "Also purged old code about some helmets doing extra damage with headbutts, since it is currently impossible to get a headbutt while wearing a helmet." 11:28:35 this seems inconsistent with other behavior 11:28:43 -!- gnsh has quit [] 11:28:46 for example, I noticed that with Hooves 1, kicks still happen even with boots on 11:30:17 <|amethyst> it's because of the cap/helmet split 11:30:26 <|amethyst> horns 1 allows caps only 11:31:15 ??suppression[5] 11:31:15 suppression[5/5]: TODO: suppress evocable abilities; suppress\/defer equip messages; handle fixedarts; needs to affect monsters too 11:31:32 !learn edit suppression[5] s/suppress evocable abilities; // 11:31:33 suppression[5/5]: TODO: suppress\/defer equip messages; handle fixedarts; needs to affect monsters too 11:32:05 |amethyst: ability/evocation suppression is in my branch on gitorious, if you'd like to try it out 11:32:10 <|amethyst> supp3? 11:32:14 supp4 11:32:18 wait 11:32:19 fuck 11:32:23 pushed to master by accident 11:32:42 <|amethyst> that's fine, I'll check out your master :) 11:32:48 |amethyst: oh, I forgot about that 11:33:10 okay, now it is in supp4 11:40:27 <|amethyst> Wensley: successfully rebased, building to test it 11:41:36 |amethyst: as of that commit I feel like the most important aspects of suppression are addressed, so it might be ready for playtesting 11:42:25 not really worried about players abusing weird fixedart properties, or of monsters not being suppressed, or the mild confusion of getting "you feel X" messages when nothing actually occurs 11:42:35 not in a beta release, anyway 11:43:06 <|amethyst> the question is how to put it in? add it to the random monster list in spider? add a vault? 11:43:10 Wensley: you'll be happy to know that i already made lorcs compatible with suppression 11:43:13 <|amethyst> add it to the rune vaults? 11:43:25 Eronarn: what would even be required? 11:43:46 Wensley: well you know all those enums and bitmasks and stuff for the suppression field? 11:44:00 ??suppression 11:44:00 suppression[1/5]: While under this effect, all magical item properties that require the item to be equipped are nullified. Evocables that must be equipped in order to evoke them are rendered inoperable. Effects that occur when items are equipped/unequipped (vampirism, distortion, etc.) happen as usual. 11:44:09 i had to go change everything because suppression had taken the next value :P 11:44:30 ...is this going to be some new brand/randart property? 11:44:36 |amethyst: my initial preference for playtesting purposes was to try to make it spawn about once per level in spider, this can be changed for the full release. I don't want to put it in any vaults until we nail down its radius 11:44:39 ...oh man 11:45:03 <|amethyst> ussdefiant_: no, suppression is an aura produced by the moth of mundanity (implemented but not yet generated) 11:45:09 Eronarn: ha 11:45:30 "staff of suppression", antimagic brand, radius 1 suppression when you wield it 11:45:37 it is actually still called the moth of suppression, figured we could change the name later if we wanted to 11:45:39 <|amethyst> Eronarn: um 11:45:41 (antimagic brand means swapping it hurts) 11:45:58 <|amethyst> Eronarn: and then it oscillates wildly and explodes 11:46:19 <|amethyst> Eronarn: since it would turn itself off, which turns it back on, which turns it off again, ... 11:46:36 does suppression kill antimagic brand? i feel like it shouldn't 11:46:44 but you'd specialcase it, even if so 11:46:59 it didn't previously, but it does now for the sake of simplicity. as few exceptions as possible 11:47:06 it also blocks holy wrath brand 11:47:07 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:47:13 <|amethyst> Wensley: wield effect still happens, right? 11:47:17 interesting 11:47:21 |amethyst: yes, for both disto and vamp 11:47:37 <|amethyst> Wensley: and DS still can't wield holy in a suppression field, right? 11:47:42 that sounds irritating :( 11:47:44 umm... good question 11:47:45 -!- magistern has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:49 does Suppression make the Singing Sword shut up? 11:47:51 <|amethyst> Wensley: what about for antimagic? 11:48:13 |amethyst: what about what about for antimagic? its effects are eliminated in the field 11:48:24 <|amethyst> oh, even the effect on the wielder 11:48:27 yes 11:48:38 <|amethyst> hm 11:48:44 anyways, the idea with the item would be that it's really powerful but makes you suppressed (but is big enough that you can suppress stuff in melee range) 11:48:45 your max mp returns, but your current mp does not, as per unwielding the thing 11:48:51 i feel like some people might use it 11:49:43 <|amethyst> radius 1 or radius 0? 11:49:51 also, hmm, what about having a 'delay wield effect' thing? maybe not now, but later: 'Really wield the X? It magic will turn against you as soon as you are no longer suppressed." 11:50:01 <|amethyst> if it's 1, suppression isn't entirely a downside 11:50:13 |amethyst: i meant 1, yes - maybe even 2 or 3 11:51:14 <|amethyst> someone else will have to deal with enabling the thing 11:51:28 another possibility would be that it is 0 when you first wield it, and it grows by 1 for each hit you land 11:51:31 |amethyst: I'd be happy to enable it to spawn 11:51:40 <|amethyst> someone who understands, or at least intuits, monster frequency numbers 11:51:54 more than willing to run through spider a few times to see the frequency 11:52:07 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:08 <|amethyst> there are scripts for that, I just don't know how to use them 11:52:15 have you thought about giving it to another monster? 11:52:26 it only showing up in one place will make the effect harder to test 11:52:32 not at all, unless you mean a unique with a suppression aura that covers the entire map 11:52:37 <|amethyst> a monster with a small aura could be interesting 11:52:56 yes 11:53:03 <|amethyst> (small as in LOS or half LOS) 11:53:05 let me think about it during lunch 11:53:05 mimics generate a suppression field as soon as they wake up 11:53:11 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:16 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:19 ...which would actually be kind of awesome, with them having poison 11:53:23 and constriction 11:53:26 <|amethyst> maybe a statue? 11:53:33 a statue could work, yes 11:53:53 Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:54:01 but have to have a reason why the player would go near it 11:54:04 Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:54:13 Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:54:13 <|amethyst> !lm Zorgdub crash x=cv,src,tiles 11:54:15 4. [2012-05-17] [cv=0.11-a;src=cao;tiles=] Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:54:17 the reason for the moth at all is that it would try to stay near the player :) 11:54:19 <|amethyst> hmm 11:54:21 Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:54:30 Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:54:34 Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:54:51 artificer prison vault 11:55:07 <|amethyst> !lm Zorgdub crash -log 11:55:07 8. Zorgdub, XL13 SEEE, T:27927 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Zorgdub/crash-Zorgdub-20120517-165434.txt 11:55:17 Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:56:02 Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 11:57:23 <|amethyst> hopefully Zorgdub does a save backup before deleting eir game 11:57:41 hm... suppression doesn't affect egos, right? 11:57:44 er, enchantments 11:59:54 because if not: guards with ponderous armor and specialcased ponderous shields 12:00:42 <|amethyst> oh 12:00:51 <|amethyst> Wensley: running 12:01:16 <|amethyst> Wensley: (and ponderous), in player_movement_speed() in player.cc 12:01:32 <|amethyst> ??suppression 12:01:37 suppression[1/5]: While under this effect, all magical item properties that require the item to be equipped are nullified. Evocables that must be equipped in order to evoke them are rendered inoperable. Effects that occur when items are equipped/unequipped (vampirism, distortion, etc.) happen as usual. 12:01:41 <|amethyst> that should be covered 12:01:53 <|amethyst> plusses are not suppressed AFAICT 12:03:39 <|amethyst> don't know if they should be --- for simplicity probably not 12:06:00 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:16 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:50 <|amethyst> Eronarn: actually, looks like ponderous already doesn't affect monsters 12:11:54 |amethyst: what's that about ponderous? 12:12:26 from asking around I decided that pluses were not suppressed, it could co either way 12:12:30 go 12:14:24 re: giving another monster a small radius of suppression, I think this would be a good idea as long as the other devs understand that we are not going wild giving suppression to monsters 12:14:48 <|amethyst> Wensley: running and ponderous are not currently suppressed... I can add that unless there's a reason they're not 12:15:14 hm, I'll look into that. I intended them to be suppressed 12:15:43 <|amethyst> Wensley: it's a two-line fix, I can do it before I push 12:15:47 is there some obvious omission somewhere? something that I missed? 12:15:49 oh cool 12:16:02 where, so that I can see the lines and try to fathom why I missed that 12:16:16 <|amethyst> player_movement_speed in player.cc 12:16:52 ah, I see. yes, that should change, thanks for noticing 12:18:08 it looks like lantern of shadows doesn't get suppressed properly either 12:18:10 at some point I went through and grepped for all the player_equip things, I guess I just missed those ones somehow 12:18:29 I haven't put any lantern-specific code in yet 12:18:58 I'm lumping that in with fixedarts 12:19:13 in my mental space 12:19:24 also the stealth bonus from elven cloaks is suppressed but not the stealth bonus from elven boots? 12:19:48 hm, where is that defined 12:19:56 check_stealth 12:20:01 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20:20 seems like neither should be since it's not magical really 12:20:23 <|amethyst> yeah 12:20:49 oh nevermind, both are suppressed 12:20:55 but yeah, neither should be i think 12:21:26 I agree 12:21:34 <|amethyst> I'll fix that too 12:21:48 <|amethyst> I'd like to see unrands handled before enabling the moth 12:21:57 unrands are handled 12:21:59 oh wait 12:22:02 fixedarts are unrands 12:22:07 <|amethyst> unrand evocation isn't 12:22:18 if it gives an 'a'bility, it should be 12:22:29 <|amethyst> I was thinking staff of olgreb 12:22:36 doesn't that count as a staff? 12:23:09 <|amethyst> not for evocation purposes 12:23:09 it's a quarterstaff 12:23:14 haha 12:23:18 did not know that 12:23:28 <|amethyst> I'll see about handling those too 12:23:30 not that it should matter either way for suppression 12:24:13 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: well, non-unrand quarterstaves can't be evoked :) 12:24:52 suppose I'll just generate all unrands and start going down the list one by one 12:24:57 i guess all unrand_world_reacts functions need to be suppressed too 12:25:25 except actually not all of them because some are just did_god_conduct, and you shouldn't be able to get away with using evil stuff by being in a suppresion aura 12:25:47 olgreb isn't a quarterstaff 12:25:52 at least not in the version I'm playing 12:25:55 <|amethyst> it's a staff staff 12:25:57 it's a regular staff 12:25:59 <|amethyst> but not a magical staff 12:26:04 it also does less poison damage than staff of poison 12:26:10 for some reason 12:26:19 unless learndb is wrong about that too 12:27:29 so yeah i guess art-func needs a ton of special-casing since it can't just suppress all unrand_world_reacts and unrand_melee_effect functions 12:27:41 yep, that's my job 12:27:47 <|amethyst> I was just going to do evocation for now 12:28:09 presumably the sword of power works as usual under suppression for example? 12:31:30 I'd be inclined to suppress it... my guideline is "how would a mundane thing react" 12:31:46 but other pluses don't get suppressed? 12:32:21 when I asked around, people seemed to think that pluses represented making the item "better" as in a sharper sword, etc. I really think it could go either way, so I don't care what the final decision is 12:32:51 minor question: Have anyone ever come up with a proposal for a Elven God for all those Deep Elf smiters to call against you, instead of some generic "dark gods"? 12:32:55 Wensley: there are weird cases though where negative enchantments can make an item worse than nothing at all 12:33:27 G-Flex: treating negative pluses as magical rather than mundane doesn't make those cases any less weird :P 12:33:28 <|amethyst> rusty armor can be more dangerous than nothing at all 12:33:44 <|amethyst> pointy bits if it is broken, for example 12:33:52 I guess 12:33:54 broken chainmail will tangle you up, etc. 12:33:55 <|amethyst> maybe not a cloak :) 12:33:58 what about a hat 12:34:04 falls over your eyes 12:34:06 you are blinded! 12:35:06 if it doesn't suppress pluses then i guess you can kite a moth for things like the obsidian axe, maxwell's, bullseye 12:35:21 doom knight, plutonium sword 12:36:05 not sure why it would encourage kiting, but yes I can see that it would make those weapons more popular against it. not that encouraging players to use the plutonium sword isn't hilarious 12:36:08 since their whole thing is "absurd pluses with crazy downsides" for the most part 12:36:08 is it possible that there are some artefacts whose special properties *are* mundane, flavor-wise? 12:36:20 like the plutonium sword's glow 12:36:23 <|amethyst> Wensley: you made them not take stairs, right? 12:36:27 |amethyst: correct 12:36:37 <|amethyst> so the problem is at least limited 12:36:44 <|amethyst> you can't drag one around with you the whole game 12:36:46 still sounds like a problem 12:36:51 <|amethyst> except in sprint :) 12:37:04 still silly if it's restricted to one floor really, yeah 12:37:10 getting rid of minuses is bad for obvious reasons; getting rid of pluses without minuses feels wrong 12:37:21 like current silent spectres are pretty bad even though they're restricted to one floor 12:37:29 plusses and minuses are at least partially mundane anyway 12:37:36 seeing as how acid can corrode them 12:38:05 <|amethyst> dtsund: you know monster frequency stuff, right? 12:38:06 wrt a monster with suppression: my mimic suggestion was initially a joke but i think it could be interesting 12:38:28 obviously running around using the plutonium sword as a plain +12, +16 triple sword by kiting a moth is less of an issue than silent spectres are 12:38:28 <|amethyst> I don't know that mimics need more buffing right now 12:38:35 but it still all seems pretty weird to me 12:38:48 MarvinPA: assuming that moths only spawn with nasty bands, if you can take on the moths' band without any of your resists and not die, I don't think there's really any need for you to kite it around (the danger is giving it to other monsters) 12:38:53 MarvinPA: there's also what I mentioned about some of those properties possibly being non-magical in flavor anyhow 12:39:17 my perception of the plutonium sword is that it glows and mutates you because it's highly radioactive, not because of magic 12:39:35 better to just suppress it anyways 12:39:38 G-Flex: plutonium doesn't cause mutations quite that quickly :) 12:39:49 <|amethyst> it does in comic books 12:39:52 I'd suppress it, for simplicity 12:39:55 I didn't say it was realistic 12:39:59 I said it was mundane 12:40:04 G-Flex: sure but then it turns into "look up the arbitrary list of properties that qualify as magical" 12:40:08 real people also don't have to eat every five minutes 12:40:29 MarvinPA: it wouldn't even be that simple since it might depend on the item 12:40:34 exactly 12:40:55 suppression sounds like an extremely tricky idea to get working well 12:41:02 naked moths: all your armor and weapons are removed from your body for as long as you are in the aura 12:41:05 like, flavourwise the sword of power's pluses are clearly magical, but maybe a regular dagger's pluses are just about the dagger's quality 12:41:32 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: what about the extra plusses that ponderous armour gets? 12:41:46 <|amethyst> no way to distinguish those from mundane plusses 12:41:53 i have no idea what the flavour for ponderous armour even is 12:42:09 ponderous is weird 12:42:20 03Wensley * rdf047489f544 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc enum.h evoke.cc stuff.cc): Suppression: block evokables and item abilities 12:42:28 03|amethyst * r80fc563cd9a9 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Suppress running and ponderousness. 12:42:29 03|amethyst * r0222056b0657 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Don't suppress stealth from elven boots/cloaks. 12:42:29 03|amethyst * rec9949b19043 10/crawl-ref/source/evoke.cc: Suppress unrand evocation. 12:42:31 the description is "it is very cumbersome, thus slowing your movement" 12:42:35 obviously ponderous armour slows down time, and thus lessens the impact of blows via greater impact duration 12:42:43 so maybe it's not a magical property at all, just really big heavy armour 12:42:49 etc etc 12:43:25 in regards to that, we already have a notion of heavyness in weight and ev penalty 12:44:03 yeah, "very cumbersome" armour not providing a greater EVP is strange 12:44:08 (and not being heavier) 12:44:22 makes more sense to think of ponderous as slowing you down magically 12:45:01 see also chei not hurting your dodging 12:45:05 "oh, this 2 aum hat of ponderousness really slows me down compared to this 100 aum crystal plate mail" 12:45:10 or slow, for that matter 12:45:32 yeah 12:45:49 |amethyst: thanks for the help 12:46:32 <|amethyst> Wensley: np... I'd say talk to evilmike about enabling them, since he's the one who's been taking care of Spider balance 12:47:24 !tell evilmike supmoths are progressing nicely, but I'd like to nail down their radius before putting them in vaults and setting them to spawn 12:47:24 Wensley: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 12:52:03 <|amethyst> !lm Zorgdub 12:52:03 229. [2012-05-17] Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) entered an Ice Cave on turn 30493. (Lair:5) 12:52:11 <|amethyst> I see he upgraded :) 12:52:32 <|amethyst> well 12:52:35 <|amethyst> !lm Zorgdub x=gid 12:52:35 229. [2012-05-17] [game_id=0] Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) entered an Ice Cave on turn 30493. (Lair:5) 12:52:38 <|amethyst> !lm Zorgdub crash x=gid 12:52:38 10. [2012-05-17] [game_id=0] Zorgdub the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) ERROR in 'traps.cc' at line 1709: placeholder trap type 100 used (Lair:2) 12:53:03 !tell evilmike current radius is spectre-sized, LOS+4, I'd be willing to go as low as LOS+1. thoughts? 12:53:03 Wensley: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 12:56:58 should weapons of the same base type auto-id at the same time now? when you reach the appropriate skill level 12:57:01 does suppression affect casting magic at all or is it just items/enchants 12:57:50 <|amethyst> just equipment 12:58:07 <|amethyst> only wielded/worn equipment 12:58:45 that still seems like a really arbitrary-feeling distinction to me 12:59:07 I can't think of any possible flavor justification for suppressing equipped items but not other items, spell magic, etc. 12:59:09 that's fine if the gameplay effect is fun 12:59:16 G-Flex: well it prevents evokables too 12:59:28 <|amethyst> Eronarn: no, only the ones you have to wield 12:59:30 it does? I thought it was only things you wore or have to wield 12:59:32 oh 12:59:35 okay, that is weird 12:59:39 <|amethyst> Eronarn: rods, decks without nemelex, staff of channelling 12:59:39 so you can still use a wand or misc equipment 12:59:41 but not a rod 12:59:48 decks sometimes work and sometimes don't 12:59:55 solution: make all evokables require wielding 13:00:32 even if the gameplay effect is fun i still think it's too special-casey and weird flavour and complicated 13:00:47 <|amethyst> blocking all items is way overboard though 13:01:00 <|amethyst> can't blink, can't teleport, can't heal 13:01:25 like, what is the actual flavour effect of the field? 13:01:37 maybe block anything that's infinite-use 13:01:45 i wonder if it would work better if it were 'lasting magical effects'; suppresses your buffs too, but doesn't prevent evoking things 13:01:50 <|amethyst> "naturally inhibitive effect on magical items in their vicinity" 13:01:58 <|amethyst> Eronarn: that was discussed 13:02:03 that is clearly inconsistent with the actual effect 13:02:12 |amethyst: that's uh... not what it does, yeah 13:02:24 it would be consistent/intuitive enough if it were to just block anything that doesn't require charges or its own MP pool 13:02:48 it's very heavily restricted to specific types of magical items 13:02:52 which it obviously needs to be 13:03:07 <|amethyst> G-Flex: "anything"? 13:03:08 or rather just ones that don't require charges/consumption 13:03:08 but doesn't make much sense 13:03:33 it'd feel weird if you could evoke rods, but not blink rings, i think 13:03:51 yeah I meant to include rods in things that would be suppressed 13:03:53 or, say, channeling 13:03:56 just not things that use charges/are consumed 13:04:06 so wands and decks would be usable 13:04:08 and scrolls 13:04:11 <|amethyst> oh, "own MP pool" sounded like it was specifically about rods 13:04:12 and potions 13:04:18 I corrected myself after 13:04:21 if anyone can think of a better proposal, I'm all ears 13:04:25 this is already the second revision 13:04:32 what was the issue with having it suppress buffs 13:04:48 people argued that the scope was too broad 13:05:41 i don't think so... if it affected lasting magical items, that would be anything where you aren't activating it, and if you activated something that provided a buff, the buff would rapidly (maybe instantly) become suppressed 13:05:57 hmm, you can still draw one from decks that are wielded, which also seems to contradict whatever the current flavour is 13:06:23 the current flavor: there isn't any 13:06:37 basically, the current distinction between equipped/not equipped was chosen because it is the easiest for the players to understand. if the game is inconsistent in requiring things to be wielded, that is a separate concern to address 13:06:41 the current flavor is a hodgepodge of balances and counterbalances 13:07:50 you can also for example wield a wand but still zap it 13:07:57 the current flavor is hindered by gameplay concerns, which is okay, because gameplay trumps flavor 13:08:29 the flavor is that it turns your magical staves into nonmagical sticks and your magical swords into big sharp pieces of metal 13:09:06 <|amethyst> which doesn't explain wands 13:09:11 this is hardly "no flavor", but is hindered by the desire to not block consumables, of which wands count 13:09:14 yes, exactly 13:09:32 if the desire is not to block consumables then why not just change the justification to not blocking consumables 13:09:36 hence gameplay > flavor, to the hindrance of understanding. I don't think it's a large impediment, but I'm biased 13:09:38 instead of not blocking unequipped things 13:09:44 then again, that would block misc items 13:09:50 not like those matter a lot 13:10:01 sure thing, if I can get consensus from developers 13:10:05 -!- SamB has quit [*.net *.split] 13:10:06 <|amethyst> I'm not sure that blocking wands would be a huge deal 13:10:18 <|amethyst> "no evoking except for reaching" would be much more understandable 13:10:39 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 13:10:43 at this point I think I'm inclined to agree 13:10:56 wands are super lame anyway 13:11:29 no evocations whatsoever in the aura, with the exception of reaching because that's a hack 13:12:10 -!- SamB_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:27 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:13:10 what about something like "The suppression field drains longer-lasting magical effects, like enchantments and items, but cannot absorb enough mana to prevent most activated magical effects.' 13:14:02 <|amethyst> I'd rather it did prevent things like evoke levitation 13:14:50 |amethyst: evoked levitation gives you an enchantment 13:15:00 you'd be able to activate it but it would go away (instantly? after a few turns?) 13:15:14 <|amethyst> evoke blink then 13:15:40 you're using your own mana to fuel the item, rather than an infinite power supply 13:15:49 I think I'd rather rename "suppression" to "mundanity", even if the past tense verb form is awkward ("yo bro, I just got suppressed" -> "yo bro, I just got mundaned") 13:16:07 mundangit 13:16:50 ps is nobody for renaming ghost moths to time flies :( 13:17:10 hah, at least no problems with translation, I'd represent both in Polish as "ordinaryity" :p 13:17:55 * kilobyte smacks Eronarn with a stick of pun suppression. 13:18:43 kilobyte: you mean the stick of pundanity 13:18:50 kilobyte: the name works fine even if you don't know the pun 13:19:03 'ghost moth': they aren't either ghosts or moths 13:19:22 Eronarn: except there's nothing related to time there 13:19:34 Eronarn: ghost flies are a real creature 13:19:45 er, moths 13:20:06 kilobyte: i thought of this earlier: time flies are strange beings from the future, who come to drain the present of its mana to cope with their own empty world 13:20:25 they drain stats by aging you 13:20:37 <|amethyst> It is wielding a +0 aorist rod 13:20:53 Eronarn: they're trying to stave off heat death 13:21:10 yesss 13:21:25 (i'm inspired in part here by the mi-go, also) 13:21:50 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:22:00 if we are going to have weird bug aliens in crawl we should at least make them not get mistaken for 'just a moth' 13:22:08 beh, in English the name "ghost moth" is some lame sucky ordinary moth, instead of the cool one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acherontia_atropos) 13:22:20 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:23:04 <|amethyst> that's just a cool binomen to begin with 13:23:59 <|amethyst> "Death's-head Hawk moth" isn't a bad name either, though 13:25:42 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:50 can we add the laser hawk from oglaf 13:29:29 |amethyst: Death's-Head Hawk moth is the name of my Hawkwind/Motorhead coverband 13:29:35 oops, falcon 13:29:43 (site is nws) http://oglaf.com/badfalcon/ 13:30:51 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:13 fuck it, i am going to code it now 13:32:53 300 year rule? :P 13:32:55 Wensley: regarding radius, I think silent spectre sized is the maximum reasonable amount, and LOS is the minimum. Although, I worry that LOS might be too low 13:33:20 I really don't know for sure though because it depends on how it plays. I kind of suspect that since the monster is fast, the radius can be lower 13:33:49 !learn edit suppression[1] s/.*/While under this effect, all of your magical items are reduced to their mundane counterparts. Magical staves act as nonmagical lengths of wood; magical swords act as nonmagical (but sharp!) hunks of metal; magical armors act as nonmagical strips of leather and hide. 13:33:50 suppression[1/5]: While under this effect, all of your magical items are reduced to their mundane counterparts. Magical staves act as nonmagical lengths of wood; magical swords act as nonmagical (but sharp!) hunks of metal; magical armors act as nonmagical strips of leather and hide. 13:34:07 !learn edit suppression[2] s/.*/Suppression blocks all worn and wielded magical item properties (resists, brands, etc.), as well as the evocation of magical items. The base properties of weapons and armor (dam, AC, etc.) are unaffected. Effects that occur when items are equipped/unequipped (vampirism, distortion, etc.) happen as usual. 13:34:07 Syntax is: !learn edit TERM[NUM] s/REGEX/REPLACE/opts 13:34:20 !learn edit suppression[2] s\.*/Suppression blocks all worn and wielded magical item properties (resists, brands, etc.), as well as the evocation of magical items. The base properties of weapons and armor (dam, AC, etc.) are unaffected. Effects that occur when items are equipped/unequipped (vampirism, distortion, etc.) happen as usual. 13:34:21 Syntax is: !learn edit TERM[NUM] s/REGEX/REPLACE/opts 13:34:32 you need an ending slash 13:34:35 !learn edit suppression[2] s|.*|Suppression blocks all worn and wielded magical item properties (resists, brands, etc.), as well as the evocation of magical items. The base properties of weapons and armor (dam, AC, etc.) are unaffected. Effects that occur when items are equipped/unequipped (vampirism, distortion) happen as usual. 13:34:36 suppression[2/5]: Suppression blocks all worn and wielded magical item properties (resists, brands, etc.), as well as the evocation of magical items. The base properties of weapons and armor (dam, AC, etc.) are unaffected. Effects that occur when items are equipped/unequipped (vampirism, distortion) happen as usual. 13:34:43 yes, I mistyped that second time 13:34:47 !learn del suppression[3] 13:34:48 Deleted suppression[3/5]: Nemelexites don't need to wield decks to use their powers, so their abilities are unaffected. Fixedarts will also have their magical properties suppressed, but that will take a while to implement. 13:34:52 or...not? 13:34:53 <|amethyst> you can use s@foo@bar@ if the thing you're replacing with has a slash 13:35:02 <|amethyst> oh 13:35:07 <|amethyst> used | , that works 13:35:10 oh, i see there's a slash 13:35:26 !learn edit suppression[4] s/$/; whether or not enchant pluses are affected 13:35:27 suppression[4/4]: TODO: suppress\/defer equip messages; handle fixedarts; needs to affect monsters too; whether or not enchant pluses are affected 13:36:19 <|amethyst> Wensley: decided on suppressing wands then? 13:36:30 yep, I think that's okay 13:36:39 <|amethyst> BTW, if Nemelex Draw One is blocked, all his other abilities should be, too 13:36:58 is 'laser falcon' too silly a name? because we do have microbats, etc. 13:37:01 think I'd rather block his powers 13:37:02 <|amethyst> I think it would make sense either way (gods are powerful enough to ignore silly moths) 13:37:28 but I'm not in a hurry to block god powers, so we can leave it until we discuss some more 13:37:43 I don't think anyone would really object to an ever-so-slight nemelex nerf 13:37:53 <|amethyst> Eronarn: microbats are real 13:37:58 <|amethyst> Eronarn: laser falcons are not 13:38:08 |amethyst: what about all the other bats? :) 13:38:15 <|amethyst> Eronarn: fruity bat is fake 13:38:18 <|amethyst> and gigabat 13:38:38 <|amethyst> they're also in one vault only :) 13:39:10 there's a crapload of bat species with "giga" in the name 13:39:38 if it's not going to be 'laser falcon' it needs another name, then :P 13:39:56 <|amethyst> a bird with inner flame? 13:39:59 <|amethyst> conjure flame? 13:40:02 <|amethyst> bolt of fire? 13:40:17 |amethyst: heat vision 13:40:17 please no sharks :p 13:40:29 <|amethyst> Eronarn: and what would that do? 13:40:41 !learn del suppression[3] 13:40:45 <|amethyst> Eronarn: I mean, more specifically than "burn things" 13:40:50 Deleted suppression[3/4]: Open issues: whether levitating over open water using boots of lev upon entering the suppression field causes instadeath (perhaps a warning for moving adjacent to the field will suffice) 13:41:04 |amethyst: it'd work like other gaze attacks, but be damaging 13:41:04 <|amethyst> smite-targetted one-cell fire cloud? 13:41:20 pretty simple monster: just that and keep range, more or less 13:41:53 <|amethyst> you'll have a hard time convincing people to add another maintain range monster 13:42:06 not all that tough, but decent damage for its level (i am thinking of lair difficulty) 13:42:07 <|amethyst> especially one with a wider distribution than a single branch 13:42:30 are orb spiders the only one right now? 13:42:38 <|amethyst> yes 13:42:40 <|amethyst> eep, gtg 13:43:08 i think it would be good to have a low level thing with it, as long as it's not too annoying to actually fight 13:43:15 @??raven 13:43:20 raven (02b) | Spd: 20 | Int: animal | HD: 6 | HP: 25-42 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 8, 8 | Fl: sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 262. 13:43:23 like it would be probably weaker than this 13:43:25 evilmike: I'd be inclined to leave it at silent spectre size for consistency, do you still believe that would inhibit vaultmakers? personally I think it'd be funny for the aura to bleed out of vaults 13:43:44 creates emergent interactions 13:48:08 teehee 13:48:10 panoptifalcon 13:49:53 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:57 -!- SamB_ has quit [*.net *.split] 13:51:42 -!- SamB__ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:42 -!- SamB_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:42 -!- Siveran has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:52:48 -!- Siveran has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:38 -!- SamB_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:54:41 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:35 -!- Siveran has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:56 -!- Siveran has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:05 Wensley: there are silent spectre vaults. However, I still stand by the opinion that the bigger the aura, the harder it is to use in vaults 13:58:33 if it goes through walls, you basically need to make the vault very large, or stick the enemy in a far corner or something 13:58:50 this is ok, but at a certain size this becomes rather impractical 13:59:07 -!- Siveran has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:48 -!- Siveran has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:41 evilmike: that's what I'm saying, I think it's great if the aura is so big that the aura overlaps with things outside of the vault 14:01:52 well, it limits how you can design them a bit. For example, if the enemy is in a final room with a door, and the outer walls aren't thick enough... 14:02:08 what will happen is players can safely lure enemies outside the aura. Obviously, vaults shouldn't be designed to allow this 14:03:16 also note that the moth will not be the only way to get the aura, if that's all you care about. I suspect there'd be at least two and at most three enemies with the aura (one early-game, one mid-game (supmoth), one late-game), and not all need to have a giant aura 14:04:12 plus we can also even have a statue with the aura, if you can find some way to ferry the player through it 14:04:22 -!- magistern has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:14 evilmike: I guess what I'm asking is, is this a huge deal for spider vaults? because I believe there are satisfactory solutions for using suppression in vaults that doesn't require a smaller radius 14:06:06 ...that doesn't require a smaller radius for this monster in particular 14:06:37 ...heh, ravens eat corpses 14:06:49 evilmike: can you give me an example of a vault that you want to use this monster in? 14:07:50 specifically, the purpose of suppression in the vault 14:07:54 -!- Siveran has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:07:56 curious as to use cases 14:08:16 -!- Siveran has joined ##crawl-dev 14:09:04 Wensley: there aren't any, yet! 14:09:07 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:09:17 once the mosnter is ready for testing, I want to heavily redesign spider_rune_water 14:09:34 !vault spider_rune_water 14:09:37 Couldn't find spider_rune_water in the Crawl source tree 14:09:51 and stick it towards the back of the vault. But it's not going to look too much like the current version (which has a lot of doors) 14:09:57 @??blink frog 14:09:57 blink frog (09F) | Spd: 14 (swim: 60%) | Int: insect | HD: 6 | HP: 21-45 | AC/EV: 0/16 | Dam: 2006(blink) | Fl: amphibious, cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 265 | Sp: blink. 14:10:01 @vault 14:10:04 hm 14:10:07 * Zannick shrug 14:10:25 spider_rune_water is a sort of uneven ring shape, with the rune room in the middle 14:10:35 is that the arachne one 14:10:49 maybe I am thinking of a different vault 14:11:02 no, arachne has a vault but it's not a branch ending and she usually just spawns without a vault 14:11:10 she's just a regular branch unique 14:12:46 @??arachne 14:12:46 Arachne (11H) | Spd: 15 | Int: high (items) | HD: 17 | HP: 200 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 30 | Fl: spellcaster, sense invisible, web sense | Res: 06magic(68) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 5427 | Sp: ensnare, poison arrow (3d24), blink, b.venom (3d21). 14:12:55 -!- Mottie has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:13:13 ensnare sp = just the same as getting webbed in melee by a jumping spider? 14:13:38 it causes the same effect, yes 14:13:42 ensnare is a ranged spell, though 14:14:11 -!- Siveran has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:14:23 @??shining eye 14:14:23