00:04:08 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1846-gddb6b6c (33) 00:09:25 03elliptic * rb4d10707e462 10/crawl-ref/source/ (religion.cc spl-book.cc spl-book.h): Make Kiku gift two randart books instead of three fixed ones. 00:09:35 03elliptic * ra77da3b89f46 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Track one time abilities separately from other god gifts. 00:10:03 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:24:23 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24:29 <|amethyst> kilobyte: items/gold/fuzzy.png is missing 00:27:09 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27:10 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 00:46:44 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:39 <|amethyst> kilobyte: also, when I read identify, missiles are selectable 00:52:39 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:42 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:01 <|amethyst> all info about missiles is known on sight, right? 00:55:28 not ego, i think? 00:55:52 <|amethyst> should be 00:55:59 <|amethyst> %git :/all missile 00:56:01 kilobyte * r10453cb0e77f: Make all missile brands visible. (8 days ago, 5 files, 2+ 70-) 00:56:10 mmk 01:00:45 <|amethyst> hm, damage to throwing nets seem to be known 01:01:13 <|amethyst> and that would be the only potentially problematic case I guess 01:04:05 03|amethyst * r7fb9bc443cbc 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Don't offer to identify ammo. 01:08:07 it seems a little inconsistent for ammo to be ID'd on sight when weapons aren't, isn't it? 01:08:13 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 01:09:37 <|amethyst> before that change, 10 out of 16 missile brands identified on sight 01:09:43 <|amethyst> all the needles, and poison 01:10:04 <|amethyst> "This was mostly contrary to what one would expect: tar/oil on flame arrows was hidden, while drugs on needles identified on sight." 01:10:40 <|amethyst> also, in gameplay terms, it was mostly risk-free to determine the brand of a missile anyway 01:11:54 <|amethyst> whereas with a weapon, it might be cursed (or distortion) 01:12:28 Do vampiric weapons do the same thing if you are full when you weild id? 01:12:46 Or is it a purely disto thing that you can accidentally wield it. 01:14:01 <|amethyst> you can accidentally wield vampiric if you are full 01:14:11 ah ok so it is consistent. 01:16:14 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:50 -!- danharaj has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 01:20:26 <|amethyst> hm, TILE_UNSEEN_GOLD isn't used anyway 01:21:27 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 01:29:11 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:29:34 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:37 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:45:51 <|amethyst> kilobyte: okay, both fixed... I noticed though that the gold tiles aren't showing up in the stash tracker (but do show up everywhere else, including ctrl-x) 01:46:06 03|amethyst * r4697150b5a1e 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-item.txt: Remove an unused tile enum value, fixing tile builds. 01:47:00 -!- ophanim has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:09:43 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:12:58 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:28:06 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:43:39 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:05 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:57:17 -!- rast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:56 -!- ark____ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:04:32 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:17:37 there hasn't been any change to ranged damage, right? Only mulch rate has been changed? 03:23:32 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:32 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:44 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:36 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:13 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:52:39 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:52:39 -!- Napkin has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:52:39 -!- Cheibriados has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:53:48 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:52 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 03:54:05 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 03:58:57 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:29 -!- absolutego is now known as absolutego_ 04:05:58 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:08:35 galehar: yeah, although nuking all the formulas might, well, have a slight balance effect 04:20:22 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:24:53 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day...] 04:35:32 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:48:56 -!- alefury has quit [] 04:54:09 actually, you made every missile have min(3,skill) has an enchantment. This seems to be a huge early game buff. 04:54:39 the formulas are not nuked yet... 04:56:58 the idea so far is to make a ranged weapon with basehit X basedam Y delay Z work exactly as a melee one with X/Y/Z, except that you need ammo but in return get to hit things at range 04:57:22 (tweaked by messing with X, Y and Z) 04:57:55 so every notion of missile enchantment would be gone 04:59:53 -!- cosmonaut_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1850-g4697150 05:00:12 sure, but why the buff in the meantime? 05:00:36 worse than outright fixed +3 elliptic suggested 05:00:46 I don't think it was necessary, and certainly not so big 05:01:07 did he really suggested that? Wasn't it only for mulch? 05:01:27 if I understood him right, for all purposed 05:01:44 although I guess it was with little heed for D:1 05:02:00 ok, we'll ask him when he's around 05:02:36 seems weird since he gave Hunters +1 launchers to compensate for the lost +1 ammo 05:03:29 I wouldn't worry about that but go for the rewrite immediately 05:03:50 I think all design is obvious except for stones 05:03:54 Is it normal that I can't see enchantment of bow(just bow, not longbow) at bow skill 11 on trunk? 05:04:18 cosmonaut_: is that bow lying around, or is it wielded? 05:04:30 wielded 05:04:48 a bug then, could you toss the save my way? 05:05:20 how i toss? 05:05:23 kilobyte: wasn't the idea to keep the speed formula? Since it's better than the melee one. 05:06:35 galehar: that's quite orthogonal to "just call the melee code" :) 05:06:48 cosmonaut_: is that a local game? Or CAO/CDO? 05:07:09 local 05:09:22 the save is in a file names .cs, it is in ~/.crawl/saves/ on Unix, saves/ in git/tarball/zipped Windows, %APPDATA%/crawl/saves on installed Windows 05:09:34 s/names/named/ 05:10:02 okay find it 05:12:02 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 05:16:55 kilobyte: i found save file. how I send that? to e-mail or uploading to mantis? 05:18:46 any way to send files would do 05:19:24 (although the last time I said this to some guy, he set up a gopher server with that file :p) 05:24:30 I upload save file to mantis. ID : 0005672 05:25:16 can't see bow's enchantment (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5672) by cosmonaut 05:28:13 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 05:42:07 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08:21 03kilobyte * r22dc80d33e25 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Auto-id ranged weapons using their skill, not Fighting. 06:09:07 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:21 hrm, a minor problem: what with the Fighting skill for ranged combat? 06:18:01 since I understand it more as "Mettle", it may be weird to include it 06:18:33 until quite recently, Throwing had that role for ranged, but removing its effect was a good riddance 06:26:19 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:26:23 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:14 for now, fighting has no effect on ranged, right? 06:28:11 I say let's keep it that way. Not improvign with fighting can be one of the way ranged is less powerful than melee 06:28:21 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:18 it'd be another discrepancy, something I want to get rid of 06:38:54 -!- absolutego_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:39:38 still, I don't think fighting should affect ranged. It would encourage people to throw stuff without training throwing even more. 06:40:05 having it affect HP + melee is good enough 06:40:50 -!- absolutego_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:07 there's some pointless split between attack.cc/melee_attack.cc 06:42:20 any idea what it could be for? 06:43:47 i think cryptic wanted ranged attacks to use the same code as melee attacks at some point, maybe the idea was for attack.cc to be the basis for both? 06:44:02 dunno though 06:46:11 I want to use melee_attack.cc as the basis, except for constriction, stabs and vampire stuff, it's all relevant 06:47:57 -!- headzone has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:49:10 I think marvinPA is right 06:49:59 melee_attack and ranged_attack should both inherit from attack 06:50:27 move all the stuff you want to use for ranged from melee_attack to attack 06:50:30 -!- headzone has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:04 right, ok 06:52:58 -!- absolutego_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:57:41 there's currently some oddity between weapon_skill(item) and range_skill(item) (like, that id bug I just fixed). I wonder what to do here. 06:58:14 could do it two ways: make the split more obvious, or eliminate it 06:59:00 this relies on one question: are we ever going to make a weapon that's useful both in melee and on range? 06:59:21 FR: pistol whip 06:59:58 like, that proposed staff sling 07:00:24 due: you mean, a pistol that shoots a whip, and pulls it back? 07:00:45 kilobyte: No, I just thought it was an awesome pun on pistol whipping. 07:00:58 "pistol whipping"? 07:00:59 Which bcombined a ranged weapon (pistol) with a melee (whip). 07:01:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol-whipping 07:03:59 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:28 -!- oberstein has quit [Quit: uhhh] 07:10:58 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:50 hmm, probably little point in postponing such a decision, and knowing that would make the ranged rewrite simpler than if we had to change it later 07:14:00 so: staff slings: yes or no? 07:14:28 kilobyte: I guess it's relevant for throwable weapons 07:14:49 a hand axe will return either SK_THROWING or SK_AXES depending on which function is called 07:15:03 galehar: oh, good point, thanks for noticing 07:15:19 could merge the 2 in a weapon_skill function and have a boolean ranged parameter 07:15:40 looks like "fustibale" is a purely French word, no English dictionary has it, and neither has Wikipedia 07:16:05 is it? Never heard it :) 07:16:07 beyond mentioning "(latin fustibalus, french fustibale)" 07:32:39 can we axe throwing stuff that isn't actually throwing 07:32:51 it's only relevant very early game 07:35:02 <|amethyst> you mean needles? 07:38:55 Eronarn: Trog and spellbooks 07:39:22 could also matter if that "keg of powder" misc item is ever implemented 07:39:41 otherwise, throwing unfit items is indeed pointless 07:40:05 you can throw items to position them 07:40:06 two examples: 07:40:09 what about corpse slap? 07:40:10 throw a book then burn it with trog 07:40:14 throw a corpse then rot it with corpse rot 07:40:19 I'm sure there are more 07:40:37 Patashu: you need portal projectile to efficiently throw corpses, theyre too heavy for most normal throwing 07:41:30 while I've never tried to throw a corpse, I read about it being used in the pure necromancer challenge, so figured it must be viable 07:42:02 probably for small corpses 07:42:42 corpse rot doesn't care about the corpse's size 07:44:50 kilobyte: i mean throwing axes, daggers, etc. 07:45:21 can keep awkwardly throwing stuff, but just make damaging throwables their own thng 07:46:42 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:46:42 also who wants to merge lava orcs :) 07:47:01 ... 07:48:13 you just made them far more scummable than before 07:48:16 kilobyte: i assume you haven't played the new version, since i posted them several months ago and didn't get any comments 07:51:41 -!- heteroy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:13 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 07:53:01 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:53:05 -!- heteroy_ is now known as heteroy 07:54:15 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:55 kilobyte: throwing cares about the corpses size 08:03:02 and small corpses are not always available 08:03:56 alefury: go kiku 08:08:08 kiku got nerfed :/ 08:08:23 -!- Pacra_ is now known as Pacra 08:23:26 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31:08 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:05 alefury: kiku was made more interesting! 08:36:30 not everything has to be looked at the buff/nerf perspective 08:45:26 kilobyte: +3 was definitely just for mulch... I didn't say anything when I saw what you did to the damage formulas because you were talking about nuking them 08:46:11 and the damage formulas are complicated enough that I don't have a clear picture of how ridiculous +3 is for damage, anyway 08:54:46 galehar: i know, im just kidding 08:55:29 however, it is a legitimate response to "go kiku" in this case, because corpse rot is no longer guaranteed 08:55:41 (which is fine!) 08:57:05 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:52 you get it earlier when you do get it though! 09:03:18 holy shit early corpse rot 09:03:23 that must be so awesome 09:03:32 (miasma is brutal!) 09:14:36 -!- cosmonaut_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:26:04 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:32:13 tavern post by galehar: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=60444#p60444 09:32:29 "One thing we could add, is brogue style damage info in monsters' description. "This monster will kill you on average in 3 hits and in a minimum of 2." And same for you." 09:32:34 opinions? 09:33:02 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:55 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39:00 maybe read first, some things were said. 09:39:32 regarding information leaks and implementation 09:40:28 it seems like a lot of work and I doubt the numbers would be at all useful given what crawl's combat system is like 09:41:12 i think they would be very useful 09:41:17 though I can't tell whether the proposal is taking AC/EV/SH into account... 09:41:23 yes 09:41:33 galehar proposed using fsim 09:41:52 after stripping unknown weapon enchantment/brands from monsters 09:42:00 "This ettin will kill you on average in 20 hits and in a minimum of 2." 09:42:12 yes 09:42:17 also whenever you have two monsters together things are really inaccurate 09:42:26 or rather, useless 09:42:32 I just don't see the point 09:42:54 have you played brogue? i dont find myself wanting to look up monster spoilers, because the game puts these numbers in descriptions. 09:43:28 (also brogue has a much smaller bestiary than crawl) 09:43:31 I haven't, but when I look up monster spoilers in crawl it isn't for this sort of thing at all 09:43:38 youre not a new player 09:43:48 I didn't look them up when I was a new player either 09:43:51 not for this 09:43:53 for MR, sure 09:43:59 or for seeing spell sets 09:44:20 i dont look them up for this stuff, but i have died to not knowing these things 09:44:34 orange rats >> other rats 09:44:37 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:44:38 for example 09:44:47 that's what the danger tiers are for 09:46:01 whats your opinion on adding a rough estimate of monster AC/EV to descriptions? "It is [very] evasive" ? 09:46:27 sounds good 09:47:55 if you want something indicating melee damage, the simplest and most useful thing to give would be the "minimum" number 09:48:21 !learn add alefury rough monster AC/EV estimate in descriptions 09:48:23 alefury[4/4]: rough monster AC/EV estimate in descriptions 09:48:25 what do you mean? 09:48:49 "This ettin can kill you in one hit!" 09:49:12 also having the average is useful for comparing monsters, though 09:49:53 I could get behind that part of it... I just think that averages are going to be extremely misleading 09:50:03 i agree knowing the minimum is much more useful in a fight 09:50:26 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1851-g22dc80d (33) 09:50:46 I'm still not sure this is the best way of giving information about monster damage, though 09:51:09 should make it clear this doesn't include magic 09:51:19 since you really can't do magic without leaking spellsets 09:52:11 yep. try brogue and look at it there imo 09:53:06 I'd prefer something more like "This ettin's blows are extremely strong and slightly inaccurate" 09:53:18 I can't stand even looking at screenshots of brogue 09:53:29 heh 09:53:30 so hard on the eyes 09:53:51 you can disable some of the color stuff 09:55:09 much of it is needed, though, for example brogue has light and shadow, which is used for sneaking up on monsters, and the whole gas stuff also needs a lot of different color shades. 09:56:45 I guess in general I'm in favor of giving more information about monsters in-game, but going for this much detail about damage seems like it will be impossible to avoid either leaking information or being misleading 09:57:05 for me at least the damage estimates work really well in brogue, and i didnt find them misleading at all. almost every monster has some gimmick that makes it harder than the pure damage estimate, so this is just a given. 09:57:27 I don't know how much equipment monsters use in brogue 09:57:30 not true for crawl, so this would probably be move useful 09:57:33 none 09:58:07 hence my initial response to galehar's proposal: "what to do with unknown weapon brand/enchantment?" 09:58:26 see, I think this sort of thing is far more useful when monsters don't have equipment and thus are the same every time you meet thtem 09:58:35 also, showing these numbers for player attacks vs monsters would leak monster HP, and an average would really not be useful. 09:58:42 and where you know information 09:59:01 a lot of crawl monsters dont use equipment 09:59:39 these numbers would also be nonsense on any caster 10:00:30 brogue solves that problem by not having casters (and showing average staff (think crawl rod) damage in % of the monster's maxhp) 10:01:04 yes, it sounds to me like this sort of thing is far better suited for brogue... 10:01:06 brogue really is quite different from crawl, and i too am unsure how well showing such damage estimates would work in crawl 10:01:21 but i think its worth discussing 10:02:36 also there's a big difference between "average number of turns to kill player" and "player HP / average damage per round" 10:02:43 especially since knowing your own min/average hits in comparison to the monster's min/average hits is important, and it just doesn't work with crawl monster HP variation 10:03:07 which of those two is actually used in brogue? 10:03:16 is it even made clear? 10:03:23 average damage in % of player maxHP i think 10:03:32 and minimum hits to kill 10:03:52 also, average damage per hit, not per attack 10:04:33 I don't know what accuracy is like in brogue, but that sort of difference matters in crawl with high-EV chars 10:04:39 yes 10:05:04 obsolate hints mode messages (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5673) by nagdon 10:06:40 do danger tiers leak monster HP btw? they probably shouldnt. 10:06:53 no, kilobyte fixed that a while back 10:15:05 gonna agree with what's been said about this not being appropriate for crawl's combat system 10:15:13 the range on damage numbers is just too high 10:19:21 what about just showing minimal hits to kill you? 10:20:06 alefury: it would end up being 1-3 far too often 10:20:07 showing only that might be just as misleading as showing the average 10:20:50 see: Ogres 10:20:54 on the other hand, it might be a useful reminder that running away is often a good idea 10:21:17 (or not standing next to stuff you shouldnt be, at least) 10:21:20 yeah, an ogre would be 1-3 until you're mostly done with lair 10:21:25 which would be silly 10:21:28 why? 10:21:31 well not 1 10:22:00 !lg * ckiller=ogre max=damage 10:22:02 oh, i meant just in that range. yeah, it'd be 3 for many characters by lair 10:22:24 but the point stands that it's not useful information 10:22:46 why not? 10:23:13 ogre (07O) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal | HD: 5 | HP: 16-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Dam: 17 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 119. 10:23:13 <|amethyst> %??ogre 10:23:15 hydra (09D) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | Int: insect | HD: 13 | HP: 54-91 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 18 per head | amphibious, regen | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 1215. 10:23:15 <|amethyst> %??hydra 10:23:17 because it's extraordinarily unlikely that an ogre will kill you in 3 swings in lair, and their attacks are slow too 10:23:28 so you can't even say '3 turns' because that's wrong 10:23:28 knowing whether a monster can theoretically one-shot you is useful, except that there will be some error with many monsters due to equipment 10:23:39 3 hits... 10:23:48 |amethyst: consider the gsc 10:23:51 Unknown selector: damage 10:23:57 Eronarn: yeah, only really "one-shot" is important 10:23:59 !lg * ckiller=ogre max=dmg 10:23:59 Unknown selector: dmg 10:24:06 huh? 10:24:11 <|amethyst> alefury: right, so with a gsc that would say an ogre is more dangerous than a hydra 10:24:12 !lg * ckiller=ogre max=dam 10:24:19 43788. Sealer the Ducker (L1 SpBe), annihilated by an ogre (a +0,+0 giant club) (summoned by the rage of Trog) on D:1 (dpeg entry chambers temple mockup) on 2010-12-10, with 20 points after 7 turns and 0:00:15. 10:24:28 imo we want something like: 10:24:40 !lg * ckiller=ogre max=dam x=damg 10:24:40 Unknown selector damg 10:24:42 !lg * ckiller=ogre max=dam x=dam 10:24:42 43788. [dam=51] Sealer the Ducker (L1 SpBe), annihilated by an ogre (a +0,+0 giant club) (summoned by the rage of Trog) on D:1 (dpeg entry chambers temple mockup) on 2010-12-10, with 20 points after 7 turns and 0:00:15. 10:24:46 <|amethyst> I guess hydras can have the reported number multiplied by number of heads 10:24:51 hm, thats a berserk ogre, though 10:24:55 'This monster is likely to kill you in a few rounds of combat, but could manage to do so in a single round.' 10:25:41 well, really: question 1: should information about monster damage be available at all; question 2: if yes, how? 10:26:44 i think it should, but giving numbers isn't necessarily helpful 10:27:42 imo small numbers with a clear relation to gameplay work well 10:28:01 this monster can kill you in 3 hits 10:28:24 i know exactly what that means 10:28:25 alefury: the problem is that a lot of monsters for a lot of the game will be able to kill you in 3 hits, yet this almost never actually happens 10:28:34 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:48 crawl players are often not stupid 10:28:53 also, 'hits' doesn't make sense when monsters have different attack speeds and different numbers of attacks 10:29:04 not stupid 10:29:05 even 'rounds' isn't clear whether it's one round for you or the monster 10:29:09 still not stupid 10:29:33 so much in crawl is not designed for total idiots, imo theres no reason to start now 10:29:50 a lot of crawl players are pretty stupid, and crawl has generally gone in the direction of making the game more user-friendly 10:30:10 <|amethyst> if crawl players aren't stupid, why include the information in the first place? 10:30:21 a number that only makes sense if you either know crawl's combat system's math or are a long-time crawl player (in which case you don't need it anyways) is not user friendly 10:30:56 (worse, actually: it will feel like it makes sense but it really won't) 10:31:01 |amethyst: because information is useful to people, and the difference between a stone giant and a hill giant (beyond the stone giant throwing stones) is not obvious at all. 10:31:11 consider someone coming from brogue, seeing that crawl has the same feature, and using it like they do in brogue 10:31:23 have you played brogue? 10:31:27 yes 10:31:33 how do you use that feature? 10:31:41 and how would that not apply to crawl? 10:31:55 i use it to estimate my combat odds; it would not apply to crawl because the numbers for many monsters would be very, very low in number of rounds to kill you 10:32:40 <|amethyst> alefury: if the point is to provide useful information, then pointing out situations that make the information not so useful is perfectly valid, and shouldn't be dismissed with "players aren't stupid" 10:32:44 that's a very useful feature in brogue, but in crawl it's just not going to be relevant (especially not since you usually are fighting more stuff at once in crawl) 10:32:45 wwf (L18 SpEn) (Snake:2) 10:32:56 if it says 2 hits i know i need to be able to get out of range immediately if shit goes bad. if it says 1 hit i know to not be in range at all if possible. if it says 3 or more hits i know i have some time to work on my escape if things go bad. thats how i use that number. 10:33:16 and this isn't even getting into spells... 10:33:18 @??ancient lich 10:33:19 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:19 ancient lich (16L) | Spd: 10 | Int: high (doors) | HD: 27 | HP: 83-131 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Dam: 2013(drain) | Fl: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(504), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 11668 | Sp: b.cold (3d37), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d44), teleport self / b.draining (3d30), animat.. 10:33:35 -!- SkaryMonk has left ##crawl-dev 10:33:50 this will never go below 3 turns, will almost always be 2, and will sometimes be stuck at 10:34:19 this would be limited to melee attacks anyway, so spellset isnt leaked 10:34:56 limiting it to melee attacks is going to make it even more misleading/useless 10:35:06 anyway, "not stupid" might be oversimplified. what i mean is that most crawl players (and most humans in general) have the ability to distinguish between useful and useless information to some extent. 10:35:35 Eronarn: its not misleading if its clearly labeled 10:35:42 people consistently overestimate their ability to do that 10:35:54 then they die. thats the way of crawl. 10:36:22 but i think some estimate of monster attack damage would be useful, and this is one of the most useful ways to provide that information. 10:36:51 i like the general idea, don't get me wrong; but minimum isn't a good number to use 10:37:02 for example, 95% makes a lot more sense 10:37:14 'This monster is unlikely to kill you in less than (X) turns' 10:37:14 some monsters' normal attacks simply are not the main threat of the monster, which is fine. people have to learn that now, and they would still have to learn that if attack damage information is provided. this is not a reason not to provide information about attack damage. 10:37:25 this would make ogres go from like 2 to, i dunno, 10 10:37:30 Eronarn: also a lot harder to calculate 10:37:47 alefury: yes, but presumably you only need to calculate this when a monster is viewed, so that's okay 10:37:58 <|amethyst> monte carlo 10:38:07 <|amethyst> someone mentioned fsim, right? 10:38:49 i do think spells should be included though. you can get around the leak by just using the most damaging spell the monster could have 10:38:54 galehar mentioned fsim. fsim is not very good at finding the far ends of the damage distribution, though. 95% might work decently well. 10:39:02 <|amethyst> Eronarn: how do you do that? 10:39:11 <|amethyst> Eronarn: find the most damaging spell the monster could have, I mean 10:39:13 Eronarn: what about bolt bouncing? 10:39:13 and what about if you have multiple monsters in sight? 10:39:17 <|amethyst> Eronarn: and what about vault monsters? 10:39:53 |amethyst: you'd have to calculate that for each spell for each possible spellbook (lots of calculation, but i am assuming this is only done when you view a monster) 10:40:17 <|amethyst> Eronarn: there isn't really a decent way to find "each possible spellbook" 10:40:40 elliptic: in that case i think its okay to rely on the player to make the most of the information they get. There is no need at all to combine such numbers into a general threat assessment IMO. 10:40:40 <|amethyst> I guess you could do it the way 'monster' does: generate 100 copies of the monster 10:40:41 alefury: i don't think bolt bouncing is worth taking into account - there will always be stuff like that 10:41:15 <|amethyst> FR: query sequell from in-game ... "This monster's kin have killed 752 adventurers of your level" 10:41:35 <|amethyst> FR: "This one time it did 52 damage." 10:41:47 <|amethyst> s/FR: // 10:41:48 |amethyst: <3 angband monster memory 10:42:10 monster memory is pretty great 10:42:15 whats that? 10:42:31 monster info filled in by the game as you experience it ingame? 10:42:33 yeah 10:42:41 <|amethyst> alefury: yes, persisting from one character to the next 10:42:59 oh, i didn't realize angband's persisted. adom's doesn't, because monster stats change over the game 10:43:06 thats neat, but has lots of problems of course 10:43:11 <|amethyst> at least some of it persists 10:43:19 <|amethyst> angband just shows numbers, btw 10:43:29 angband has all the numbers ever though so 10:43:31 (such as installing crawl on a different machine, or people playing online, possibly with multiple accounts) 10:44:04 i kind of like the way crawl does it, just tell players about monster resists etc. i just think having a bit more information like that would be better. 10:44:09 <|amethyst> I'd be fine with numbers... I don't see much of a difference, other than resolution, between "max 20 damage" and "can kill you in four hits" 10:44:11 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:48 |amethyst: you have to know your maxHP for one, but not for the other. also, do you mean including stuff like GDR, or just base damage? 10:44:49 <|amethyst> the latter is unclear, anyway, about whether that is from your current health or max 10:45:11 <|amethyst> pre-AC I'd think 10:45:35 <|amethyst> not base, because you'd want to account for weapons and brands 10:45:56 <|amethyst> but there's no reason for the monster information to change just because you put on a helmet 10:46:14 I'd agree that the monster information shouldn't depend much on the character 10:46:17 i agree with eronarn that estimating the number of rounds you have a 95% chance to survive for would be more useful than most other suggestions so far. 10:46:21 "is likely to kill you (average damage) in about (round number -> stringify) four hits, but could do so in as little as (95%) two or fewer." 10:46:24 so that you don't have to examine the same monster every single time you run into it 10:47:11 elliptic: thats a whole different thing, and a valid concern of course. 10:47:27 or maybe for the second half, 'is unlikely but not unable to kill you in less than two rounds' 10:47:55 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:47:56 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 10:48:30 or 'is not likely to kill you in less than two rounds, but could do so in a single round with exceptional luck' 10:48:40 so there you'd have three numbers: average, 95%, absolute max damage 10:48:56 i don't think brogue's max-possible-hits makes much sense to include 10:49:13 <|amethyst> max possible hits is infinity anyway 10:49:20 elliptic: on the other hand, providing estimates of average weapon damage per time would be useful, and this only really makes sense in the context of a monster. 10:49:27 brogue has max possible hits? 10:49:28 well you can have 0 or negative AC 10:49:40 <|amethyst> Eronarn: they can still roll zero, can't they? 10:49:57 i forget if it's 0 indexed. but doesn't negative AC add to their damage? 10:50:25 <|amethyst> no, negative AC is the same as zero, at least for melee 10:50:32 ah 10:50:44 well, it would generally be a very large number even if it were somehow not infinite :) 10:50:49 <|amethyst> not sure if a roll of 0 is possible 10:51:22 as for reinspecting monsters: i think this is actually fine, if we emphasize that it's mutable information 10:52:01 <|amethyst> ah: one_chance_in(3) + random2(potential_damage) so zero is possible 10:52:43 'In your current state, Cerebov would likely kill you in around ten rounds of melee combat. It would be unlikely for him to kill you in less than five rounds, but he could kill you in as few as two rounds with exceptional luck.' 10:53:27 or maybe "you would probably last ten rounds against Cerebov" 10:53:31 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:07 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:58:22 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:42 03galehar * r69e24f24290b 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Fix make tx-txt not committing new files. 11:00:42 03galehar * r7f9f942b4f0b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/es/quotes.txt: 2 spanish quotes. 11:00:42 03galehar * r5476c3e2c531 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/quotes.txt: Add a comment in quotes.txt. 11:00:43 03galehar * r16f168f49f30 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/quotes.txt: Couple of new quotes. 11:00:53 03galehar * r694ad1ba92f8 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Unique descriptions improvements (DTIT). 11:00:53 03galehar * r0c72be50b25d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (el/items.txt es/items.txt items.txt pl/items.txt): Capitalization fix. 11:00:53 03galehar * r24986c81b84b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/quotes.txt: New quotes for uniques (DTIT). 11:01:01 03galehar * ra59f4b973c1b 10/crawl-ref/docs/translation.txt: Transifex documentation. 11:01:01 03galehar * r7d908c1d6ff2 10/crawl-ref/source/util/tx-mkini.pl: tx-mkini.pl: convert html quotes into real ones before comparing strings. 11:01:57 ...where are we using html quotes 11:02:44 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20111108220737]] 11:03:30 -!- gnsh has quit [] 11:05:25 we aren't, but they are in files pulled from transifex 11:06:36 ah 11:06:45 galehar: hey, did anything happen with that list of todos you were collecting? 11:07:29 kilobyte: I'm leaving for 4 days, but next week, I think we should make a blog post about the translation project 11:07:41 galehar: may i suggest using a different author for files you only sync with Tx, as opposed to your own contributions? 11:08:28 Eronarn: no, I considered updating the planning but procrastinated instead 11:08:31 we made a similar error and it would require rewriting large parts of our history now, but i'm still using a neutral "Translators" now 11:08:45 heh 11:09:26 ChrisOelmueller: what? 11:10:01 galehar: anything you commit like that will show up as you, wrecking commit count 11:10:10 galehar: if you commit files you didn't author, i suggested using e.g. --author "Translate teams" 11:10:46 ok, good point 11:11:00 have to go now 11:11:03 * galehar leaves 11:23:18 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:26:01 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:50 -!- Voxxik has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:10 -!- magistern has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:40 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:04 the race/class descriptions on the main menu are broken, presumably by the recent text wrapping changes 11:46:57 i don't know how the database lookups work enough to fix it, probably easiest is just to unwrap them 11:47:16 unless someone else has a better approach 11:47:54 <|amethyst> wouldn't that just be undone the next sync? 11:48:37 oh maybe, i haven't been following 11:48:41 didn't realise it's done automatically now 11:48:48 <|amethyst> I'm not sure either 11:49:12 <|amethyst> probably the text should just be re-wrapped when displaying 11:50:10 ah, i guess it can be unwrapped in getGameStartDescription maybe? 11:50:50 <|amethyst> hm 11:51:25 <|amethyst> there seem to be problems with the auto-wrapping in the species menu though 11:53:21 oh sorry yeah, that's the one that i meant 11:53:33 species and class selection when starting a new game 11:54:21 <|amethyst> I guess getGameStartDescription would need to unwrap and re-wrap 11:54:24 <|amethyst> not just unwrap 11:56:00 <|amethyst> getGameStartDescription() isn't the right place though 11:56:57 <|amethyst> I mean, it would work, but I don't think it's the right place to be doing that kind of thing 11:59:46 <|amethyst> hm 11:59:47 <|amethyst> actually 12:00:21 <|amethyst> it looks like just unwrapping them works fine 12:00:34 <|amethyst> they get wrapped properly with indent 12:02:26 <|amethyst> !tell kilobyte in 79-column mode I don't see the last column of the background selection menu 12:02:26 |amethyst: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 12:06:17 03dolorous * rf4d6567c52e9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/quotes.txt: Fix spacing and punctuation. 12:15:07 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15:59 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:12 03|amethyst * receefc4f2f47 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Fix species/background menu entry descriptions. 12:22:40 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 12:23:45 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:26:44 <|amethyst> hm... to fit all four columns, at least one of the column spacings must be 1 rather than 2 cells 12:27:22 <|amethyst> or the space on the left could be cut 12:30:40 <|amethyst> oh, actually, cutting space on the right seems to work... just need to reduce that group's width by 1 12:35:56 <|amethyst> okay, fixed 12:36:14 03|amethyst * r0a9bf766b70c 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Fit all four background columns on kilobyte's phone. 12:58:28 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:59:29 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:35 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:10 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:29 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:34 minor complaint: Should Kiku really be repeating spells in his randart books that are already in a Book of Death i picked up off the floor? 13:41:07 <|amethyst> I don't see why not 13:41:19 <|amethyst> trog still gifts weapons even if you pick up an awesome axe 13:41:55 sure, but i was thinking that Kiku's new gifts work like Sif's, avoiding stuff you already have 13:42:18 <|amethyst> no... there aren't enough Necro spells of most levels to really be able to do that 13:42:23 does sif actually avoid giving you *any* spells you don't have? 13:42:28 s/don't/already/ 13:43:56 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: Moving computer...] 13:44:06 how exactly does the book acquirement code work again? I know it avoids giving the same generic spellbook twice..;. 13:44:56 Zannick: no 13:45:14 Sif does try to ensure that each gift has at least one new spell in it, that's all 13:45:29 that's what i figured 13:45:35 it's pretty complicated code 13:49:53 is Death Channel one of the things that simply can't be cast by Vampires? 13:50:24 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:05 it can be cast 13:53:57 * ussdefiant would vaguely suggest a clause that Kiku doesn't go all Xom and give spells to people that their race simply can't cast 13:54:10 dunno if that's already in or not, but... 13:54:57 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 13:55:58 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:00 that's currently only an issue with felids and lethal infusion and excruciating wounds 13:56:12 <|amethyst> and DDs and regen 13:56:16 oh right 13:56:39 I suppose guaranteeing that DDs get VD might be good 13:56:42 also Vamps and everything besides Haunt in the Necro 13:56:55 or undead in general and everything besides Haunt 13:56:56 necronomicon is not changing 13:57:13 <|amethyst> they can choose pain branding instead 13:57:15 none of the stuff in there is eligable for the randarts? 13:57:19 kiku has a stack of them, he's not going to give people custom versions 13:57:21 <|amethyst> ussdefiant: nope 13:57:50 <|amethyst> the kiku randarts are levels 1-6 only 13:57:58 ussdefiant: kiku books certainly shouldn't overlap with each other... 13:58:30 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:58:30 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 13:59:00 my problem in the last game was that half of the spells in the two randarts overlapped with the Book Of Death i grabbed off the floor before i even started with Kiku 13:59:12 the randarts themselves weren't overlapping each other 13:59:22 intended behavior 13:59:34 that seems perfectly fine, yeah 14:03:41 I'm currently fixing the unusable spells... is there anything other than the brands for felids and regen for DD/Mu ? 14:05:35 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 14:05:43 <|amethyst> that looks like all according to you_cannot_memorise 14:05:52 while (extra_spell == SPELL_NO_SPELL); 14:05:53 chosen_spells[3] = extra_spell; 14:05:59 not really sure what that's supposed to do 14:06:08 that's a do-while 14:08:05 the for loop before it implies that extra_spell only == SPELL_NO_SPELL if it duplicates one of the first three spell 14:08:18 i'm a bit rusty on C, but it sorta looks like a potential hang spot? 14:08:19 <|amethyst> ussdefiant: right 14:08:40 <|amethyst> ussdefiant: no, because you could only get three of those seven spells 14:08:52 <|amethyst> so as soon as it picks one of the other four it exits the loop 14:09:12 <|amethyst> I mean, theoretically if you are very (un)lucky it could be a long time 14:09:55 something is wrong with your random number generator if it is actually taking a long time :P 14:10:13 oh wait, extra_spell is a function AND a variable 14:10:32 <|amethyst> huh? 14:10:40 <|amethyst> a function? 14:11:23 ergg, nevermind, i'm sure it works 14:11:30 gotta move ATM, be back in a bit 14:12:59 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:18:21 03elliptic * r072319d150da 10/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Decrease the size of large missile stacks. 14:18:31 03elliptic * rb53190c669aa 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Make Kiku's randart gifts not contain unusable spells (for the player's race). 14:28:53 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 14:33:28 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:40:07 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:30 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:58 -!- DarkCedor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:59 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51:05 hello 14:54:50 typo in pluralise() (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5674) by nagdon 14:55:21 <|amethyst> hi 14:57:29 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:57:40 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:38 is someone working on transifex around here? 14:59:56 <|amethyst> galehar's the main person, and he left a few hours ago 15:00:09 -!- __duncan has joined ##crawl-dev 15:01:01 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 15:01:56 that's wath I see :p 15:02:26 i'll wait for his return 15:05:49 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 15:09:55 DarkCedor: he's away for a few days now i think 15:11:28 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:54 MrPlanck (L27 HuFE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 2481 failed. (Abyss) 15:14:30 thanks MarvinPA_ 15:14:32 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:14:33 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 15:14:48 (he probably off for the Weekend then) 15:14:56 yeah, i think so 15:15:09 11:07:29 kilobyte: I'm leaving for 4 days, but next week, I think we should make a blog post about the translation project 15:15:16 yep 15:15:20