00:03:41 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-859-g956037e (32) 00:17:25 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:17:48 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 00:20:14 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-859-g956037e 00:34:15 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:12 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:49:11 st_: since you've been doing hell stuff lately, i'm curious about something. what do you think about the monster list in the hells? 00:49:53 st_: my own opinion is that they're a bit odd. it's not a huge issue and i dont really feel like changing them myself, but i also feel like there could be improvement. quite a lot of undead everywhere, and some weird stuff, like golems 00:50:22 not that undead are bad, but there sure seem to be a lot of wights 00:50:38 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:36 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:10:53 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 01:24:21 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:56 evilmike: I don't have any issues with it particularily, I mean it's mostly just supposed to be stuff in your way to make it take more time to get to the end 01:27:19 also, I've no idea what could be done to improve it since we have nothing else really 01:27:24 yeah 01:30:26 I guess just gradually improving the 4/3/2 demons will help 01:31:00 I think Keskitalo also had some hell ideas, forget what exactly 01:34:40 It's about layout generation, https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:hells#the_hells_should_be_difficult_to_traverse 01:43:41 i dunno, if the position of stairs were somewhat determined, that probably wouldn't help much 01:43:57 eg "I know the stairs get placed on the other side, so I might as well dig a straight line and start looking there" 01:44:39 if you wanted to extend the length of hell:1-6 it would be more effective to use one down-stair per level. I don't think that's necessary, but do think that's the most effective way to go about it 01:46:42 also even if the stairs were separated using something a bit more advanced than just placing them across the level, knowing where the up-stairs are still tells you where *not* to look 01:47:43 (aside from all this, I do think letting the hells have unique layouts would be cool) 01:50:36 I wondered about making encompass layout vaults for hell:1-6 01:51:16 or just large vaults 01:51:40 I mean to appear randomly, not every game of course 01:56:54 hmm 01:57:06 I suspect it would be effective (and less work) to make vaults that contain stairs 01:57:19 I believe there is one of of these that can appear in Dis 01:58:39 aside from being a huge amount of work to make several encompass vaults, you'd have the issue of requiring them to be... lesser than branch endings 01:58:54 less difficult, less noteworthy, smaller, not as interesting, etc 02:03:35 yeah, not really worth it to make vaults for a dive branch aside from stairs ones like you said 02:07:13 oh by the way... that trog altar vault with the moth of wrath behind grates allows you to use reaching to kill the moth 02:07:50 ah... that's new 02:07:53 or at least, if you have an ally with reaching 02:07:57 oh 02:09:22 changing it to glass isn't an option, the moth won't have an effect 02:11:03 moth of wrath (04y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 9 | Health: 33-64 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 2505(rage) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 504. 02:11:03 %??moth of wrath 02:11:38 if that much xp is a problem i guess it can be made weaker 02:11:41 moth of wrath (04y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 2505(rage) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 12. 02:11:41 %??moth of wrath hd:2 02:27:12 sounds more like a bug with reaching 02:40:44 -!- G-Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:58:24 evilmike, HangedMan: perhaps we can make teleporters a feature of their own, instead of recoloured floor? 02:58:47 that'd allow C++ code to consider them special 02:59:04 kilobyte: well, they are now used in a vault (old) and a sprint map. So it does seem to be a good idea 02:59:23 oh yes, and an ice cave 03:00:10 how should it be represented? 03:00:31 I think a trap may be best, not sure though. 03:00:42 A '^' seems natural to me. Perhaps a different colour than current magical traps 03:00:55 (as a side note, having different magical traps be different colours would be a good thing) 03:00:57 sounds good 03:01:27 03kilobyte * r8b4b68f3d482 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Consider gaze attacks to be attacks. 03:01:42 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:04:19 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 03:08:36 evilmike: Mmm, good points 03:11:27 They don't have to be as far apart from another in absolute distance, of course.. but anyhting guaranteed does sound problematic 03:14:01 related issue is that I dislike free digging (spells), and its come to mind that teleporting yourself should be limited in quantity as well, removing the teleport self spell was good 03:17:56 digging is a powerful effect, but I don't personally mind that it comes in spell form. I can understand the reasons for removing the spell, though 03:18:07 I should point out that it is not the only spell that removes walls - merely the most convenient 03:19:09 well, the effect of "create corridor in an emergency" isn't really duplicated by the other wall-destroying spells 03:19:10 LRD, orb of destruction, summon elemental, and possibly another I am forgeting can all be used if you are determined enough. Just not in a very fun way 03:20:28 the problem is that the other spells are much slower 03:20:40 which depending on why you want to get through the wall, might or might not matter 03:20:54 I suppose I'm just not sure what the problem is. Is it the fact that you can dig a long corridor with a spell? Or the fact that you can use a spell to dig at all? 03:21:13 I'm not sure either, just making observations 03:21:39 (my thoughts on Crawl's balance are so heavily incompatible with the prevailing view in the channel that there's not much point in pushing them) 03:22:11 as removal of all other digging spells isn't really an option, axing Dig would remove just convenience 03:22:22 that's my thought as well 03:27:42 it's also not like teleport, where you have a wand, a scroll, a spell, and a ring, all doing almost the same thing 03:39:19 Has something happened to the autofight code? Right now if you try to autofight when both hurt and no enemies are around you get the "too injured" message and not the "no enemies" message 03:40:10 (Is this intentional, to flag when people are hurt, or is this a bug?) 03:40:12 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:40:22 phyphor: this is intentional, and how it has always worked 03:40:34 Have we always been at war with Eurasia? 03:41:05 in this case, Eurasia didn't exist before 03:41:58 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:55 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:30 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:31 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:29 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:52 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:36:52 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 04:38:43 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:14 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:41:30 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:41:42 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 04:57:52 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:07 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-860-g8b4b68f 05:03:30 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:08:19 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 05:10:39 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12:30 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 05:22:40 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:35:40 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:12 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:38 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 05:48:55 Nagual (L27 NaWz) ASSERT(adjacent(attacker->pos(), defender->pos())) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1940 failed. (Abyss) 05:57:46 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 05:59:37 ttention freenode users, we are adopting a new privacy policy on April 15th and it is important that all users review it before that time. See http://freenode.net/privacy_change.html for the new policy. Thanks for using freenode! 06:33:03 About Hell diving, how about completely randomizing the destination of stairs? It doesn't even put you on a portal, just anywhere on the map. 06:33:04 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:33:08 !messages 06:33:08 (1/1) nfogravity said (11h 43m 10s ago): i uploaded a new fsim version 06:37:01 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 06:38:15 putting on the portal is currently buggy 06:40:05 currently it puts you on a random portal, no? 06:40:32 yeah, instead of whatever upstair that was replaced 06:41:00 one issue with putting you on a random square (not necessarily near a portal) is that it makes it a death trap for people who don't know anything about hells 06:42:32 also on the end level it shouldn't place you completely randomly... getting free runes by luck that way is a pan gimmick, not hells ;) 06:42:51 kilobyte: I know that was a bug, but I actually think it is a pretty good feature 06:44:19 yeah, isn't totally bad, indeed 06:44:55 makes people explore hell a bit, since unless you succeed in one shot, you need to find the way from every portal 06:45:09 the fact that the portals take you all the way back to vestibule implies that these aren't actually normal two-way staircases 06:45:12 would be good to figure out what's up with this buggy behaviour and turn it into a feature so we don't accidentally fix it :) 06:45:55 galehar: going from DNGN_STONE_STAIR_DOWN_III wants DNGN_STONE_STAIR_UP_III 06:46:04 kilobyte: I mean, most people do hells in one shot afaict... but it makes things more interesting for the people who do bail 06:46:47 had a game when I had to bail from Tar 78934764867 times 06:46:56 what about generating a new hell level every time you go through a portal 06:47:13 after a few trips, you explore enough for autotravel to work 06:47:42 Eronarn: uhm... the very word "Angband" makes people here turn in revulsion 06:47:52 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:29 kilobyte: we already have non-permalevels in pan 06:48:51 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:32 kilobyte: in hell, taking DNGN_STONE_STAIRS_DOWN_III wants DNGN_ENTER_HELL 06:49:45 yeah, but at least it's not trivial to go back and forth 06:50:01 I think the main issues with non-persistent levels in general are: 1) scummable 2) can lose items permanently if you leave them there 06:50:10 galehar: which, unlike DNGN_STONE_STAIRS_UP_III, is not unique 06:50:26 making hell levels non-scummable would be necessary, yeah 06:51:08 note that hell levels already are scummable though... 06:51:28 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:52:50 looks like it is supposed to look for the closest portal, but it does not for some reason. Or maybe it doesn't always work. 06:53:20 setting find_first to false in _get_dest_stair_type will make sure that we're looking for a random one 06:53:27 you can just hang out on top of a portal on Geh:1 or Tar:1 or whatever and wait for hell effects to produce xp (and items with hell knights and such) 06:54:06 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54:06 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 06:56:12 i don't think we need to worry about the item thing much, you can't protect against some kinds of stupidity :P 06:56:16 galehar: what's "closest"? 06:56:56 failure to place Hell over encompass vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5518) by KiloByte 06:56:58 closest to you.pos(). Your pos on the previous level when you took the downstairs. 06:58:24 looking for closest portal seems like it would lead to situations where all three downstairs lead to the same portal 06:58:39 so it is rather good that it doesn't work that way :P 06:59:48 I'm not sure why it doesn't, but I think setting find_first to false would make sure that we're looking for a random portal. It's what's done in Pan. 06:59:56 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:06 pan doesn't land you on a portal 07:01:27 so I'm not sure what you mean there? 07:01:28 oh right 07:05:39 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:11:34 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:12:42 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:07 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:43 It does look like it's supposed to take you to the closest portal, and that 2 downstairs close by take you to the same portal. Not sure what makes it unreliable, but I know how to make it reliably random :) 07:36:41 03galehar * rbabf7839a55c 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Properly randomise the destination portal when taking a downstairs in Hell. 07:36:51 03galehar * rcafb36c45208 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: No form switching. 07:43:09 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:42 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:47:05 galehar: you can't transform while in lich form, you know 07:47:29 could do the same for statue (unliving) 07:48:25 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:48:27 what about spider? Get rid of rP- in a single turn? 07:49:17 doesn't seem to be a big issue to me 07:49:59 and even if, the whole thing with untransforming taking two turns is mostly a throwback from the times when cancelling _all_ enchantments took two turns 07:50:32 there are only two such cases left I know: untransform and &D0 07:52:04 since the point of forms is to have pros and cons, I think a 2 turn delay to untransform is good 07:52:58 it's quite a pain in the ass, though. Especially when going out of spider to butcher. 07:53:03 I usually cast BH to get out of ice form when I run into fire attacks 07:53:57 then what about this: instant but 15 aut 07:54:15 (ie, what you can currently do by pressing untransform then weapon swap) 07:54:52 yeah, sounds ok 07:55:19 cool, lemme do it 08:00:06 fatal: sha1 information is lacking or useless 08:00:11 git am gives me that :( 08:02:37 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:00 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06:29 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:51 kilobyte: just as long as it is consistent between forms... what really bothered me with the old system was that lichform was special 08:40:44 kilobyte: also, making it 15 aut isn't actually the same as the current setup, since you can press untransform and then a shadow fiend can dispel undead you for 80 damage before you weapon swap 08:41:26 kilobyte: I'm fine with this, but you should make the untransform thing immediate as well 08:42:22 or were you just talking about untransforming and not about switching from one form to another? I can't tell 08:43:29 the important thing is just that there shouldn't be incentive to learn a low-level form like beastly appendage just for the purpose of leaving a form more quickly 08:45:54 being able to change between forms fairly easily is quite flavorful... i'd rather see it something like being instant but it taking 2-3 turns than see it actually take an action 08:50:09 yeah... my suggestion would be the following: casting a form spell when you are already in a form works but takes twice as long as a normal action, and ending transformation is immediate but also takes twice as long as a normal action 08:51:02 why not just have it be a non-action, but take a few turns to kick in 08:51:22 eronarn: how are you handling casting a spell then? 08:51:24 in my mind, end transformation via a should be instant, and doing it then casting a new form shouldn't be different from doing it and doing something else 08:51:52 er, i don't think that sentence made it clear 08:52:27 casting a spell should be the same as the a menu exit transformation (instant) followed by normal casting, and then it doesn't kick in until the old spell would've expired 08:52:58 it would work kind of like abyss delaying blink casts 08:55:43 abyss doesn't delay blink casts 08:56:21 oh, is that teleport only? oops 08:56:46 I think the delays just make the process more confusing 08:57:37 having casting a spell take more time to do than other spells is something we haven't done before and don't communicate 08:57:57 the effects not kicking in immediately is fine, but the actual casting shouldn't be longer 08:59:00 we also haven't done a spell that has no immediate effect... not sure which is worse 08:59:41 malign? 08:59:49 it creates the \ instantly 09:00:00 well, this would change your status lights instantly, presumably :P 09:01:20 how would you have it change the status lights? 09:01:58 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:19 definitely at least mark the current one as expiring; maybe purple to indicate changing to something else rather than expiring, or a new 'Change' light 09:02:48 anyway, there's always the simple option of preventing people from casting a new form until they have cancelled the old one 09:03:18 and make cancellation instant but take 1.5 times normal action speed 09:04:03 it makes changing forms in battle not very good though 09:04:09 i don't like the idea of preventing it, because i do think it's cool for tmuters to be able to switch between forms fluidly 09:04:40 well, if we want we could just make everything immediate and take normal action speed 09:05:26 maybe it is okay to let people spend just one turn to cancel lichform 09:05:48 maybe lichform should have penalties when it wears off 09:06:25 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:38 the buff nec spells should really have downsides 09:06:43 even if they're not huge ones 09:06:53 well, lichform has plenty of downsides while it is in effect 09:07:27 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:07:33 and needing to use a turn to cancel it before being able to cast borg or drink a potion or whatever is still something 09:08:12 a penalty when it wears off might just encourage people to keep it on all the time... maybe that would work better if/when perma-casting is possible 09:08:59 if you're cancelling it in combat you probably are trying to get rid of those downsides, though :P 09:09:04 and yeah, definitely a post-permabuff thing 09:11:25 what about some sort of new status that could be used both for right after lichform ends and right after ddoor ends? 09:11:37 I think it could be interesting to have a delay when transforming and untransforming. Cast ice form, you start transforming, get hit for full cold damage, you finish transforming, your turn 09:11:47 same for untransform 09:12:03 elliptic: i'd kind of like to see exhausted become a status that we can use for stuff like that 09:12:25 though those might need penalties bigger than what's suitable for post-berserk penalties 09:12:31 maybe 20 aut for full form and 10 for BH and beastly 09:12:32 perhaps a longer-lasting pain status effect 09:12:33 eronarn: doesn't really make sense to use the same status for post-berserk and post-lichform IMO... 09:13:24 galehar: and what about cancelling or switching forms? 09:13:34 maybe we could make a new 'Drained' status effect and use it for them 09:13:46 and also draining, since now it's pretty pointless 09:14:12 i think the simple solution is fine - just have to cancel form to start a new one, and cancelling can take 10 aut or 15, either is probably reasonable 09:14:26 same duration for untransform. Not sure about switching. Maybe just prevent it. 09:14:48 blocking form switching encourages just fighting in the same form all the time :( 09:14:52 Also, in case you didn't notice, the discussion started because I changed trunk to prevent form switching 09:14:55 there's already so many incentives to do that 09:15:31 galehar: I don't see much reason for such a delay, honestly... usually it would just be extra messages and confusion 09:16:07 galehar: delays like that make more sense for interruptible actions 09:17:52 galehar: and yeah, I saw your change... definitely an improvement :) just wondering whether there is some way to make form switching work, since "fair" uses of it are pretty good 09:18:33 03MarvinPA * r5a244b327fc7 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Don't give ball lightnings spells 09:18:53 I prevented form switching, so that you can't cancel your vulnerabilities immediately with beastly. kilobyte wants to change untransform to make it immediate and 15 aut because he thinks current untransform is tedious 09:19:00 (fair uses include stuff like switching from statue form to spider form to chase down a fleeing monster) 09:19:22 here's one idea for a simple thing for lich: coming out of lichform is intensely painful and stuns you 09:19:26 anything else, no problem 09:19:56 but it would allow immediate cancellation of vulnerabilities again, which I don't like much 09:19:58 (could make entering lichform also be painful like that, but i'm not sure it's necessary) 09:20:04 galehar: yeah, I started commenting because originally I misread kilobyte's comments as being about changing switching, and I wanted to make sure that he was also changing untransforming 09:20:41 galehar: i think that's only really a problem for lich, not the other forms 09:20:46 and you can do stuff to offset that 09:21:12 galehar: taking 15 aut to cancel a vulnerability that might mean taking three times as much damage from a single attack (if you move from rF- to rF+) seems okay to me 09:21:55 (or dispel undead, but there you are trading it for torment) 09:22:17 it is a buff, but not a huge one I think 09:22:30 alright then 09:22:52 Eronarn: I often switch out of ice form with BH if I meet fire attacks 09:23:18 i don't see that as a problem 09:23:22 i see that as an advantage of being a transmuter 09:24:31 When you cast a second form, couldn't it just take 15 aut to change form, same as cancelling then casting another one? Otherwise it sounds like the interface just got more awkward 09:25:52 why 15 aut, anyways, that seems pretty weird 09:27:05 mumra: cancelling then casting takes 30 aut right now. Would be 25 with kb's change. 09:28:30 hm, yes, kilobyte was actually wrong about cancelling currently taking 15 aut 09:28:44 you can't just cancel and then weapon swap 09:28:48 always 20 aut 09:29:09 still could allow changing form, just make it take the same amount of time; purely an interface convenience 09:30:04 mumra: that's more or less what I suggested earlier, but Eronarn raised the reasonable concern that then we have some spells taking longer to cast than others 09:30:46 unless you mean his suggestion... this is all too confusing to talk about :) 09:31:12 elliptic: didn't see that, just noticed the conversation (but it was something i thought yesterday when i saw the commit) 09:31:33 and the current system is just a delay. You can act on the second turn. If you switch form and it takes 30 aut, it's like being paralyzed for 2 turns. 09:31:41 galehar: yeah 09:31:51 elliptic: it's not a problem anyway - it takes however long to cast the spell. then you get a message "It will take a short time to change to this form". Then 20 aut later you change. 09:32:10 mumra: that's what i want it to do 09:32:20 elliptic: Oh i see - you want to force players to spend some time in normal form 09:32:34 though i think 10*1d3 would be better 09:32:35 no, I want to make the change happen when you cast the spell, just take longer 09:33:32 however at this point I think I might just prefer kilobyte's suggestion of making end transformation work immediately but be a 15 aut action 09:33:42 why 15 09:33:44 and no form switching 09:33:47 if we want to keep the current balance (with my latest change) and improve the form switching interface, it means cast a form, you start changing, act, transform. Well, you do gain an action. 09:33:47 eronarn: why not? 09:34:05 15 means that it is a "slow" action 09:34:11 right, i mean why is it slow 09:34:51 i don't see what that actually adds to the game, slow actions are irritating because they often won't matter but sometimes will mean getting doublehit by torment and etc. 09:35:14 unless there's a pretty compelling reason for an action to be fast or slow it should just be the same as other actions 09:35:32 the compelling reason here is so that we aren't halving the time it takes to end a transformation 09:35:56 it can always be reduced to 10 later if we decide that that's okay 09:35:58 does anyone really care about that except for lichform 09:36:15 ice form 09:36:29 spider and rP- 09:36:39 mainly though, I'll agree that it is a lichform issue 09:36:52 if not for lichform, I would support making it 10 09:37:04 the point of forms compared to buffs, is that they are strong but they have drawbacks. If you can get rid of the drawbacks too easily, it doesn't work 09:37:09 what about just having it be a 10 aut action and then the effect doesn't kick in until immediately before your turn, so everything gets one more shot at you 09:37:10 you are still using a full turn and losing your buffs 09:37:29 eronarn: that's essentially the current system, and it is quite annoying 09:37:35 I agree with kb there 09:37:56 galehar: the point of forms is actually that you can only have one at a time :P 09:39:05 the fact that they have drawbacks is important too. Note how they all do. 09:39:19 beastly appendage doesn't :P 09:41:36 blade hands also has a pretty minimal drawback 09:41:43 not really? 09:41:49 the casting penalty is quite large 09:42:40 yeah, but it's not really the kind of drawback where you want to cancel it like you would for a negative resistance 09:42:58 sure it is, if you have spells you want to cast 09:43:36 (haste, cBlink, borg, etc... quite hard to get L7 spells to a good success rate with blade hands active) 09:44:34 however I think losing a turn is probably enough of a price with everything except lichform, and something could be done to make lichform cancellation special 09:45:12 ideas for that: stun, a pain-based debuff, a new draining effect also used for draining 09:45:20 stun is the simplest, of course 09:45:24 what does stun mean 09:45:59 like what freeze/passive freeze do. delay until the next time you can act, but you aren't paralyzed 09:46:28 well, that's effectively identical to making cancelling lichform take 15 aut or 20 aut or whatever instead of 10 aut 09:46:40 no... it'd cancel after 10, but you wouldn't act until whenever 09:46:50 it cancels after 0 09:47:25 at least this is the immediate cancellation proposal as I understand it... 09:47:27 oh, then in that case sure, you could just make it take a different amount of time for lich (though you'd want a message indicating this) 09:47:52 "The pain of reverting to living flesh stuns you" or whatever 09:48:37 but i like the draining idea more, personally, because iirc the spell already references using negative energy 09:50:00 (back) 09:50:14 should I push, or do we need to continue the discussion? 09:51:17 (untransforming takes 15 aut * speed, so does switching forms) 09:52:04 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:45 kilobyte: I think you can push. There seems to be consensus that this is good for all forms but lich. 09:55:54 we need to figure out a special case for it. 09:55:54 kilobyte: I'm not sure the discussion was very conclusive, so if you've coded something that you think is good then you can push 09:56:05 special case for lich shouldn't be necessary at 15 aut, I think... 09:57:14 it's not even a special case, it's the rule that you can't use transformations while undead 09:58:54 kilobyte: if untransforming takes the same amount of time as switching forms, I don't see any reason to forbid switching forms from lichform 09:59:04 however that's really a separate issue 10:00:16 03kilobyte * r5073be524e3b 10/crawl-ref/source/viewchar.cc: Add comments showing encoded glyphs for > ASCII glyph sets. 10:00:17 03kilobyte * rf7442d95a6c4 10/crawl-ref/source/viewchar.cc: Use ??? not ?? for trees in charset_ibm. 10:00:17 03kilobyte * r88d6b2a39f6b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Clean up after long-removed floor placeholders hackery. 10:00:17 03kilobyte * r5e7a31a95412 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/hells.des: Fix Hell portals not being placed on encompass maps. 10:00:18 03kilobyte * r292318b235ad 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Revert "No form switching.", make it take a bit longer. 10:00:24 I guess I'm biased because I'm still thinking about the permanent lichdom idea 10:00:28 03kilobyte * r0970d1a616d4 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: End transformations immediately, rather than after the next action. 10:01:03 permanent lichdom? you mean the idea that you are stuck in lichform forever once you cast it once, or something else? 10:01:11 yred could gift permanent lichdom 10:01:14 it is an old idea 10:02:48 Wensley: tying that to a non-caster god (or a single god, really) is pretty iffy, especially with food and torment changes 10:02:57 kilobyte: in case you didn't catch it from the conversation above, there wasn't any "dirty abuse" using weapon swap after ending transformation 10:03:24 the duration was set to 2 aut 10:03:31 no it wasn't... try it out 10:03:49 you can end transformation and then weapon swap and the transformation will still not be ended 10:04:40 iirc it was set to 20 aut and then immediately decreased by 10, or something like that 10:04:42 oh right, 20 aut but counting the cancelling action 10:04:46 yeah 10:05:13 anyway I think 15 is fair since previously you could do something else for 10 aut of the 20 10:07:19 hrm, I really should set up a cron job to run stress test 6 every night, and shout if it fails :p 10:07:38 two fresh crashes, one with some tloc miscast, one when anything tentacley dies 10:08:54 ./crawl -arena 'kraken v spectral kraken arena:small_deep_pool delay:0' 10:08:59 crashes every single time 10:16:59 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:00 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:47 -!- Ripplez has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:22 hi. i would like to ask if this feature could be considered : 10:30:45 adding the ability to command your allies to pick up equipment off of the ground, as per the ai directive given with ^t 10:32:07 the t menu already covers attack following waiting commands. by giving the ability to actively influence if they pick up the items you could have more control over if the imps you summoned actually gear up or not instead of simply waiting for them to decide to. it would cut down on alot of tedium id imagine 10:32:41 the loss of a turn in giving the command would help counterbalance if too strong. thank you for listening 10:40:17 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-869-g0970d1a (32) 10:47:42 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:49:50 Ripplez: it's been suggested several times, the devteam don't like it because they think that if they add the command, people will feel compelled to use it 10:50:02 but I think that there's a point there, given that people seem compelled to try to use it anyway 10:50:12 but it is a good strong addition and it already exists in the game 10:50:44 it is not adding a new mechanic, its tweaking an existing mechanic to be easier to use. otherwise your generally going to resort to scumming for it beforehand 10:51:58 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:24 it feels like it counts under the same principles that led to the intensive exploration and search system that crawl has 10:53:14 sort of, but the opposite to how you think: 10:53:16 you could simply walk from place to place and that functionality will always exist but using auto-explore and the search function helps turn something that would be tedious into something available, freeing up that up 10:53:28 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:53:36 search reduces the amount of note-taking or stashing (i.e. annoying) gameplay 10:54:06 adding a new interface option is actually complicating things 10:54:19 it would be better to make summons flat out more likely to pick items up under low tension 10:54:32 it doesnt complicate anything. i didnt even realise for months that they COULD pick up equipment i thought only hostile imps had that 10:54:45 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:48 e.g. so they'll always pick up an item if it'd result in better damage 10:54:52 it was by sheer luck that i noticed it once. and most players already know what theyd intend for their imps to pick up 10:55:11 okay then. any other suitable alternative to the current item equipment ai would be nice 10:55:24 yeah but: think about the imps. don't they get any choice in the matter? ;) 10:55:41 they should get as much of a choice as when you tell them to attack something 10:55:55 because the results of the command can have similar weight to a situation 10:55:55 (tbh, i never really noticed that imps could pick stuff up either) 10:57:03 the problem is it makes summoning annoying, with each cast of imps you have to issue an additional command and hope they pick up the right stuff (e.g. other items could be in LOS) 10:57:36 you can make it start with the items already under it 10:57:44 or tweak the ^t appropriately 10:58:11 it's still adding an extra set of keypresses to an otherwise simple spell 10:58:14 for example, summons instantly go for the equipment you or your allies have dropped/they await your command. etc. 10:58:42 for example, you will no longer really need to give them the ability to grab stuff under their own directive 10:58:46 it'd be better to just make them much more likely to seek out items in low tension; it achieves the same effect without the extra command 10:59:00 so you can adjust the ^t menu to reflect the fact that now every item pickup will be solely under your command 10:59:19 no because there is a CHOICE in whether or not you want them to pick up items 10:59:24 if you for example summon in a fight 10:59:31 you are giving up a turn to get them equipped 10:59:32 so every single time i cast summon imps i have to press *extra* keys? 10:59:36 plus the turns where they do not fight 10:59:45 you could simply have them fight barehanded, as they normally do now 11:00:06 but the ability to pick up items comees at a cost but in return essentially boosts their power for that fight 11:00:18 it is still optional, the optional aspect coming up when you summon them in a fight 11:01:03 there might be an issue with whether or not it is too grindy to say, always carry weapons to pass over to the imps (like on a felid or tansmuter who wont use them) or if this will mean people will presummon more often than not and that this is bad 11:01:15 but i feel such an argument is not trivial to solve. issues of mana for example 11:01:33 you can't make summon imps use more MP ... 11:02:02 i meant that presummoning means you enter fights with lower mp if your constantly presummoning to have them pick up items 11:02:23 so presummoning is not essentially cost free until you have high enough summoning that it tends not to make a difference 11:02:28 yeah but summon imps uses a small amount of MP so it's not a problem 11:02:41 i dont expect ppl to simply look at what i say without thinking or without applying any balance changes to it 11:03:54 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:09 im simply saying that as it stands, there is a) already precedent b) it will simplify and put into play effects that already exist, just makes it easier and less frustrating c) it can be adjusted for by looking at how the new ai menus will function and d) that it will not be trivial to say why it would be a bad implementation to the system 11:04:24 im going now so that i end on this note for the dev team to see 11:04:25 ty 11:04:28 -!- Ripplez has left ##crawl-dev 11:06:26 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:35 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:32 I have to admit I didn't know that summoned imps could pick up items and use them either... IMO the correct solution is to make no summons ever swap equipment around :P 11:18:48 +1 11:19:55 Problem with free dig imo is that it makes potential stuff you could do with layouts pointless; I started thinking so after Slime got damaging walls. I thought it added a lot that you sometimes had to go through damage to unknown territory.. 11:20:10 exceot that you dont have to, since you can just dig your way (tediously) 11:20:29 if dig as only available in limited quantity, there could be interesting choices 11:20:50 but I don't have good ideas for wall destruction in LRD etc 11:21:00 keskitalo: well, slime walls don't have to be LRD-able 11:21:19 ah, that's a good point.. 11:21:24 like, "do I take a bit of damage and Summon Elemental for 4, or IOOD it for 7 without risking my nice skin?" 11:21:37 make a new wall type for slime (and attach the acid damage to that wall type) 11:21:43 I personally think it would be fine to remove dig even if we leave in summon elemental, LRD, shatter as they are 11:21:44 then this wall type can be used in vaults outside of slime 11:21:45 elliptic: they're "slime-covered rock" 11:21:59 it isn't a very interesting spell 11:22:19 kilobyte: Of course any wall destruction in spell form should go, and those are often interesting 11:22:20 unlike the other spells that duplicate wands, Dig is actually identical (no power dependence) 11:22:49 especially LRD: walls are resource, and removing them can give monsters opportunities to get at you 11:22:57 kilobyte: well, I'm sure someone could come up with a message ("The slime holds the wall together!") 11:23:30 I mean "should go if Dig as a spell goes", at least as I thought of it 11:23:36 elliptic: reflavour it so the walls are *made* of slime, therefore not rock and not diggable (or LRDable or shatterable) 11:23:52 the thing is, if you can't remove slimy walls, doing Slime tends to be tedious. You go a bit, rest up, and so on. 11:23:55 Keskitalo: I don't see it that way... I think we can remove Dig and leave in the others 11:24:00 another layout thing that free digging messes with is my "routes" idea for hell 11:24:01 nothing really interesting there 11:24:05 kilobyte: I basically never dig in slime currently 11:24:12 a few versions ago what you said was the case 11:24:21 wasn't slime changed so there is always a guaranteed safe path? 11:24:26 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:35 elliptic: depends on what layout you get... sometimes you have a far-off vault with a width 1 corridor 11:24:35 with layout changes, you can usually get to slime:6 without touching more than half a dozen walls 11:24:51 kilobyte: a vault? in slime? 11:25:18 I had Dissolution in a disconnected place recently 11:25:45 not a strict corridor but not something you could pass through even with full hp 11:26:23 keskitalo: I don't know what you had in mind for hells, but again I think that removing dig might be sufficient... the other spell options have far worse MP/walls destroyed ratio other than shatter, which is L9 11:26:55 kilobyte: also, we aren't talking about removing wands of digging 11:27:21 right, in hells having to take your time can be costly 11:27:43 if we remove the spell, people can still use the wand to remove a few dozen walls 11:28:02 taking one or two wands means Tar:7 doesn't take time 11:28:10 kilobyte: what do you mean? 11:28:12 it's mostly about Slime and Orc 11:28:23 Keskitalo: Did you see, rolling boulder beetles are in trunk now? 11:28:24 tar:7 is mostly stone 11:28:34 elliptic: those insane loot rooms you need to dig through 11:28:45 right, yeah 11:28:46 mumra: yes! <3 11:29:05 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:05 kilobyte: I think removing Dig spell would have very little impact on crawl aside from removing degenerate strategies in Orc/Slime 11:30:11 i don't think there are really any cases where digging out a level would be worthwhile to use iood/lrd/whatever for that you couldn't just use a wand, yeah 11:30:54 it might be good to fix Orc and Slime so those degenerate strategies are not needed, first 11:31:00 they aren't needed 11:31:22 if you dive through Orc not caring for its contents, perhaps 11:31:38 kilobyte: usually you can get to the vast majority of orc without any digging by using hatches 11:31:47 but even if you have to use digging, there are still wands! 11:32:23 you don't have stacks of those yet, usually 11:32:24 kilobyte: on my last Orc clearance, I used 2 charges of a digging wand to get to all disconnected bubbles 11:32:31 cTele is more likely 11:32:42 a ring of teleportation also works 11:33:02 there are lots of alternatives; dig spell is simply the least interesting and most efficient 11:33:04 yeah, depends on the relative size of bubbles though 11:33:05 so let's remove it 11:33:35 it does have a cost attached: you pay four spell slots for nothing but convenience 11:33:35 between stairs and hatches you're pretty unlucky if there's a bubble right across the other side of the map that you can't get near 11:34:05 kilobyte: sure, but it isn't a very interesting cost 11:34:15 mumra: I'd say there's a bubble in more than half games, distance differs 11:34:26 and you're only losing out on a small % of Orc's gold which you can come back for later with cTele or more wands 11:34:26 maybe I'll repeat what I said earlier: dig is just an exact duplicate of a wand 11:35:08 elliptic: what if the spell is temporary ... 11:35:24 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:27 actually, forget that, because Tomb 11:36:44 very first game I tried: could reach 1 upstair/downstair on Orc:1, 1 upstair/downstair on Orc:2, 1 upstair/3 downstairs on Orc:3, all of Orc:4 11:36:53 kilobyte: and did you go in the hatches? 11:36:59 yeah 11:37:20 that's below average, I'd say... and what's wrong with it anyway? 11:37:25 kilobyte: and how far away are the bubbles? 11:37:51 i don't see how removing dig spell affects any of this at all, anyway 11:37:58 unless you play nothing but stalkers 11:38:34 Orc:3: one ~2-3 zaps, one 1 zap, one 3-4 zaps away, one a whole screen away 11:38:50 well, probably some of these are connected 11:39:03 yeah, the spell has nothing you cannot get in other means, it merely reduces tedium 11:39:34 how does it reduce tedium to go and spam the spell 50 times on each level of orc?? 11:39:38 I really don't understand this 11:40:17 in Orc, not that much, in Slime, you can't autotravel at all without it 11:40:39 in slime you can use a wand 11:40:43 (unless you're lucky enough to get a pair of stairs just next to each other, which doesn't happen that much) 11:40:47 you'll have one by then, or enough disint charges 11:40:59 you'll have how many wands? 3? 11:41:04 one wand is usually plenty 11:41:22 slime's pretty easy to get through without digging much now, yeah 11:41:55 shall I go try some sample slime levels and tell you how many walls I had to dig to get to slime:6 without stepping next to any slimy walls? 11:42:50 first try: 0 digging needed 11:43:52 same here -- but that's while getting ~1/8 area and monsters 11:43:53 second try: 0 digging needed 11:44:10 kilobyte: forcing people to use wands to get all the xp from slime seems reasonable to me 11:44:32 or mapping+cTele or whatever 11:44:34 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:45:36 kilobyte: also, I find it hard to believe you only got 1/8 area and monsters given that you are guaranteed to be able to get to all 3 down staircases on slime:5 if you could get to slime:6... 11:45:43 you don't have enough wands to get a sizeable portion of it, mmapping+cTele being the only option but that removes the possibility of any autotravel 11:46:50 (in my try I could get over 3/4 of slime with no digging) 11:47:00 kilobyte: again, what is the problem with removing Dig 11:47:04 kilobyte: you can recharge wands 11:47:07 trogites already can't cast dig 11:47:10 two of Slime:6 upstairs lead to the same bubble, the 3rd one to a tiny one with long "tentacles" 11:47:53 (you'd need to mmap the tentacles without digging, they're too long to be explorable with hp alone) 11:48:50 elliptic: it's not a matter "you won't be able to do Slime", it's "it's way, way less convenient to do so" 11:49:19 kilobyte: why do we have to have clearing 100% of slime be "way, way" more convenient for people who happen to have a single spell, then 11:49:29 this seems like a good argument for removing Dig :P 11:49:35 like, for example: manual exploration is more efficient than autoexplore, yet playing without the latter is too tedious 11:49:39 do you just hate trogites? 11:49:55 kilobyte: autoexplore is not a specific spell 11:50:30 it's a convenience tool with a cost 11:50:37 a tiny cost 11:50:57 4 spell levels when you get to slime is not much, and you can get it back afterwards 11:51:09 or did you mean autoexplore? 11:51:24 again, what's wrong with removing dig 11:52:37 if you really think that a single spell makes that much convenience difference, this sounds like a ripe spell for removal or changing 11:52:54 spells obviously shouldn't just be convenience tools, so that sounds like a good reason to remove it 11:53:15 but now creating corners in pan has a cost 11:53:17 see also portal, extension 11:53:18 horrible 11:53:23 removing dig is a good idea imo 11:53:58 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:16 though i'd like to see digging removed from summon ele and iood too 11:55:43 spells should be used tactically; dig can be used tactically of course, but not in a way distinct from the wand 11:56:45 summon corner? :P 11:56:55 -!- vadatajs has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:49 extension allowed having Lich Form at a fraction of cost and with lousy success rate 11:58:08 portal was too buggy and limited to be of any use 11:58:36 extension allowed having 4945687346 buffs with no additional costs, too 11:58:42 portal was buggy? it seemed to work fine the one time I cast it :P 11:59:30 Dig makes the main feature of Slime completely irrelevant 11:59:47 neither of those were the reasons they were removed though, they were removed because they were just convenience spells with no real tactical use 11:59:57 see also: selective amnesia 12:00:15 the success rate thing was fixed for a while before it was removed, even, you had to have good success rate and the relevant spells still memorised 12:01:31 we should really get that permacasting thing going :P 12:01:42 but yeah, all of these are non-tactical convenience spells, which is exactly what spells should not be (teleport self also) 12:02:16 what exactly convenience did selective amnesia bring? 12:02:41 SA allowed something you couldn't do without it: completely replace your set of spells at a whim 12:02:47 kilobyte: it was an example of a non-tactical spell 12:02:57 ^ 12:03:52 MarvinPA: I added that restriction to Extension myself. And it was not enough -- no one casts a level 8 spell at 50% miscast chance; also, it didn't fix the ten buffs issue. 12:04:18 nobody used extension, it wasn't overpowered or broken or anything 12:04:40 "no one"? That's news to me. 12:04:41 well, arguably it was but only if you could be bothered to keep it up 100% of the time 12:05:04 it certainly didn't seem to get that much use for that reason 12:05:10 right 12:05:30 regardless of whether it was overpowered or broken, it was still a bad spell 12:05:31 did tele self get removed or 12:05:35 Eronarn: yes 12:05:37 from what I've seen, people used to cast Necromutation once then keep recasting it with Extension, together with extras added for free 12:06:23 I don't see what's wrong with non-tactical spells, especially that you can't memorize and forget them at will. 12:06:36 kilobyte: a few, but most just recast necromutation, tacked on the other buffs when needed, and saved five spell slots 12:07:41 kilobyte: the way spells are set up in crawl, it doesn't really make sense to have non-tactical ones - since they makes slots, MP, etc. much less relevant 12:07:43 kilobyte: amnesia isn't unlimited now, but it is still extremely plentiful 12:08:17 they can work in some games, like D&D, where you have a pretty hard limit on how many spells you can cast per day 12:08:29 but not when so much of the action is focused on combat 12:09:19 elliptic: plentiful enough for breaching a single vault here and there, but for any non one-off use, you sacrifice four spell slots 12:09:38 kilobyte: wands of digging are far more than enough for random vaults 12:10:02 yeah, they can't breach stone though 12:10:09 neither can the spell... 12:10:33 the next spell in that book... 12:11:00 LRD also requires getting substantial power to break stone 12:11:22 60 power is a lot unless you are actually an earth caster 12:11:49 and it has a much more legitimate tactical use, and one which isn't duplicated by a wand 12:12:12 I scummed a bit of Earth skill -- the vault I wanted to get had 9 "acquire any" items, lots of |, then % 12:12:29 wasn't that vault removed? 12:12:38 that one, fortunately, yes 12:13:47 non-tactical spells aren't great because the MP cost and failure rate chances aren't relevant at all (miscast severity and spell slots (if you don't have amnesia) are, but that's all) 12:13:53 with dig, spell power isn't even relevant 12:17:18 I'll also note that spell slots are irrelevant for heavy armour guys who take off their armour, cast dig a few times (with wizardry, say), and put the armour back on 12:17:20 one answer is to make Slime walls regrow, so any tunneling attempts with spell or wand are largely futile. then tweak level generation if there are too many completely disconnected bubbles. 12:17:35 mumra: yeah, that' 12:17:46 mumra: yeah, that's exactly what I'm arguing for! 12:18:03 and once that's done, we can remove the Dig spell crutch 12:18:05 kilobyte: and independently of slime improvements (which could be cool), I'm arguing for removing dig spell! 12:18:27 no need to wait; people get on just fine not using it 12:18:59 you're one of very few people who can affort to ninja everything without taking any XP 12:19:26 you're one of very few people who worries about clearing slime, afaict 12:20:03 (and you can still do it with a wand of digging or two) 12:20:41 just checked LRD: you need only middling spellcasting to breach stone with 0 Earth skill, assuming you did pick up and wield-test random staves during the game 12:20:47 One observation: permanent effects should have permanent costs 12:23:01 the game isn't permanent in the first place, really 12:23:09 disagree - killing a monster is permanent, for instance 12:23:14 and Shatter is fine 12:23:21 kilobyte: with 20 int and 20 spellcasting, 0 earth, and a staff of earth, you only have 30 spell power 12:23:22 Eronarn: the effect is "do damage" which is impermanent because monsters can heal 12:23:23 not even close to enough 12:23:27 in the LRD + stone wall case, the cost is 1 (2?) scrolls of amnesia and 1 potion of brilliance 12:23:31 oh, brilliance 12:23:49 even with brilliance, I only have 55 power 12:23:50 not enough 12:24:34 20 is a spellcasting troll, a typical hybrid has around 30 -- 35 with brilliance 12:24:38 what 12:24:51 and you do swap in +int rings for that single vault 12:25:08 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:20 that single vault that doesn't exist 12:25:25 also you might not be a hybrid 12:25:44 there are many other places you want to cut through stone 12:25:48 let's make disint actually affect stone 12:25:54 the status quo sucks 12:25:55 starting with Tomb 12:26:02 I'm not saying LRD is great, but at least it has some cost, and also serious tactical application, and also doesn't DUPLICATE A WAND 12:26:30 if everyone has limited stone digging, then LRD doing it stops being an issue 12:27:24 elliptic: I assume you want to immediately remove Magic Dart, Throw Frost, Throw Flame, Bolt of Cold, Bolt of Fire, Bold of Draining, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, potions of HW, Haste, Tele Other, Poly Other then? 12:27:33 LRD also has a noise cost - if you're cutting through Tomb with it you will wake stuff up 12:27:45 kilobyte: I explained this earlier... those spells all have substantial power dependence, and also most of them have different ranges 12:28:22 forgot Invis, Slowing... everything but Random Effects and Disint 12:28:39 there are only so many ways you can do 'bolt of damaging effect' 12:28:49 it's more okay for those to be similar to each other than for utility effects 12:28:54 I did die miscasting Dig once :p 12:29:06 kilobyte: wand of digging with 0 evoc is the same as dig spell with 27 earth and a staff of earth 12:31:10 all wands in general give you the same effect with no skill investment but in limited use, as you can get in unlimited usage but at an XP cost otherwise 12:31:28 they don't give the "same effect with no skill investment" 12:31:50 have you compared spell powers and ranges 12:32:16 even with the recent Evoc change, they tend to work as good, nearly as good, and often better, as real spells 12:32:36 uh, no 12:32:38 not at 0 evoc 12:32:51 brb in a while, sorry 12:36:59 wands have 15 power at 0 evoc 12:52:34 03MarvinPA * rf6a8e8aaa032 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Don't let summoned monsters pick up items 12:52:34 03andre_axem * r2e00978b7039 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc religion.cc xom.cc): Changes Xom to be more tension orientated and less cruel. 12:52:34 03MarvinPA * rb12f7ef42d45 10/crawl-ref/source/ (xom.cc xom.h): Remove Xom annoyance gifts, make item gifts rarer 12:52:35 03MarvinPA * r155eaae7c901 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Make Xom statloss less severe 12:52:35 03MarvinPA * r67a77ee77b56 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Remove Recall and Fly from Xom's tension spell list 12:52:35 03MarvinPA * ra2490edb855b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/godspeak.txt: Remove Xom speech for annoyance gifts 12:58:33 -!- donblas has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:14 afternoon everyone, I'm interested in working on some of the evokable items mentioned on https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4230&p=54587#p54587 and https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:magical:misc 12:59:27 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:30 i wanted to check in and make sure nobody had an objections before i started hackingb 12:59:51 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:37 donblas: I'm pretty sure that some of the ideas on that wiki page would get rejected pretty quickly ... were there specific ones you were looking at? 13:06:53 mumra: fixing up box of beasts and tome of destruction to scale with evok and be less terrible was my first idea 13:07:36 mumra: i also wanted to propose making the summoning items use evocation (at a lower rate) to make them useful without training spellcasting 13:08:11 some of the new items on that page sounded possibly interesting, was going to get feedback before adding anything new 13:10:39 donblas: have you seen kilobyte's comment at the end about trying to scale beasts with dungeon depth also? 13:12:04 yeah i saw that, working on book first, but i'd like each evokable item to get better effects and chance of success with skill 13:12:35 figured this'd be simple enough as a "first project", and I like the flavor of these guys 13:13:40 is there a good requires x skill in spellcasting/school to cast spell y guide? I want to make the book get better at a roughly similar rate 13:14:58 ??spell power 13:15:05 spell power[1/5]: (Spellcasting/2 + 2*avg school skill) * INT/10 * (1.5 ^ enhancer count). Now halve the part over 50, halve the part over 100, halve the part over 150, and plain cap at 200. Negative enhancers use 0.5, not 0.66. 13:15:27 thanks, spell_fail() is kinda hard to read 13:15:42 it's the power you're interested in rather than the fail chance 13:16:04 ... i think 13:16:20 well my idea is that you'll only use the higher level "pages" at higher skill levels, and keep the power scaling roughly where it is for the book 13:16:31 it had something like that, but less percise 13:17:22 yes sorry i misunderstood slightly. you don't want that formula. spell power is how powerful the effect is, that already scales with Evo. 13:18:44 hmm, henzell doesn't have a spell success formula 13:18:59 ah, yeah, i'm not changing the books power directly 13:19:57 spell success does not have a good formula 13:21:02 i'm just trying to figure out roughly, what spellcasting/school do you need to cast fireball, so I can make the book require roughly that much evok that, since I"m removing the 30% fail rate, or at least suggesting that via a patch 13:21:29 well more, since that is 2 skills vs 1, and spellcasting should require less skill since it uses food and ligher armor... 13:21:39 ??spell success[2] 13:21:39 success rate[2/4]: These entries describe the required skills to get a spell's success rate up to 55%. Try ??success_rate_N to get information on success rate of level N spells. Skill_rate is 3*Spellcasting + 2*Intelligence + 12*(Average of skills in spell schools used by that spell). 13:21:57 ??success rate 5 13:21:57 success rate 5[1/1]: Without wizardry bonus: skills_rate = 100. With ring of wizardry: skills_rate = 85. With staff of wizardry: skills_rate = 82. With ring and staff of wiz: skills_rate = 79. 13:22:01 elliptic: that is exactly what i'm looking for 13:22:04 that may or may not be helpful 13:22:14 it also may or may not be completely correct 13:22:27 can I get henzell to tell me without spamming the channel? 13:22:29 you can also test things by adjusting skills in wizmode and looking at the failure rate 13:22:43 yes, henzell accepts pms 13:22:50 thanks 13:22:53 donblas: if Tome gets very reliable at high Evo, the problem could be that it's actually *too* good 13:23:21 mumra: yeah, that's the problem, right now it's only 70% reliable at any Evo 13:23:45 mumra: and the blasts get better with higher evo, but from what i can tell nobody uses it due to that high fail rate 13:23:56 being a bit more reliable at high evo would be good, yeah 13:24:18 mumra: so i wanted to nerf the effects some so you aren't getting better effects that the eqiv spellcasting 13:24:24 you could mitigate the failure effects at high Evo 13:24:53 yeah, i could just do that, but the forumla seems kinda scattershot 13:25:20 so I was going to try to make it better, but I could be wrong, haven't hacked crawl that much 13:26:24 !tell galehar okay, after much heartache i think i made a working patch. it's on mantis now 13:26:25 nfogravity: OK, I'll let galehar know. 13:27:17 sorry to spam dev again, "/msg henzell success rate[1]" isn't working - what am i doing wrong 13:27:35 it means like this: 13:27:54 "/msg henzell success rate 1" 13:27:59 sorry to spam dev again, "/msg henzell success rate 1" isn't working - what am i doing wrong 13:28:02 woops 13:28:13 actually this: "/msg henzell ??success rate 1" 13:28:18 forgot the ?? 13:28:24 that works, thanks mumra 13:36:08 the wiki (i know, i know) says evoc costs only 80% of the cost of regular skills, i'm having trouble finding that in skills.cc, is that still true? 13:39:35 fail, _base_cost(), still true 13:51:46 hmph. why do vaults with weight: 9999 barely show up in Vaults? they are simple 8x8 boxes but I get about 2 in all of V with them all having big weights 13:51:54 -!- lord-naughty has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:54 maybe 2 is the average number of vaults placed in V? 14:14:00 might be good to increase that if that's the case, I hope to make a fair amount of boxes 14:20:39 we were talking about extension before, and while i was walking the dog i had an idea that might make it interesting and tactical 14:21:33 a wand of energy, that when evoked gives you back some mp, refreshes the duration of all your buffs, and makes you glow horribly 14:22:04 a serious tactical decision because it would be a shitton of glow 14:23:51 thoughts? 14:24:35 it should also refresh negative buffs imho, but that sounds interesting to discuss at least 14:24:47 glow isn't an issue for lich form 14:25:06 why not? it makes you rot if you get enough, right? 14:25:29 also the explosions 14:25:32 that too 14:25:37 this would not be a pleasant situation 14:25:53 fwiw that sounds nothing like a wand at all 14:26:01 that's more like a rare consumable 14:26:33 that was my original idea 14:26:41 but i don't think there's precedent for that 14:26:48 i guess there's genie bottles 14:27:32 so yeah like a cube with a coil inside that pulses with magical radiation 14:27:36 also ambrosia (though not evoc based (then again, why are bottles evoc based)) 14:27:53 plus i really really want an excuse to use ETC_RANDOM on a player 14:28:40 what about making it into something you could either hold onto, or throw at an enemy, after activating? 14:29:22 like a magical capacitor? 14:29:36 'cube of wild magic', like the wild magic mut + some MP regen + glow + magical effects don't decay 14:29:40 burns out after a while 14:30:16 so sort of like a manual 14:31:28 more like a weird magic grenade, kind of? you'd sometimes want to throw it at groups of enemies (this is assuming monster miscasts go in) 14:31:34 other times you'd want to hold onto it 14:32:00 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 14:33:35 _st: i was thinking about trying to implement some new layouts for V, using subvaults most rooms 14:33:41 i dunno, that sounds pretty weird. i like it as a capacitor that you use like a manual. i like your description of the effects though 14:35:52 mumra: sounds good, but the ones I'm making right now wouldn't be appropriate for that, they are more like mini V:8 quadrants 14:36:24 I've tried to make some ones that would work appearing often but I could never make stuff that I liked 14:37:06 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:16 nfogravity: fwiw i do think the 'extending buffs' part of that item is the least interesting part 14:38:15 i disagree. knowing you could blow it on z:5 and not have to worry about spending a turn refreshing haste? 14:38:38 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:39 st_: the plan is to have a tag for vaults that can be used repeatedly (these will be randomised monster / loot sets) 14:38:58 st_: and then others with a "use once only" tag for more specific encouters 14:39:10 nfogravity: there might be a place for an evoc item to extend buffs but i don't think tying it to glow is right 14:39:11 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:39:48 what would you have it do? 14:39:55 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:39:56 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 14:41:17 donblas: many of the ideas on the wiki page has been written by dpeg. All the first ones. 14:41:18 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 14:41:22 !messages 14:41:22 (1/1) nfogravity said (1h 14m 57s ago): okay, after much heartache i think i made a working patch. it's on mantis now 14:41:34 nfogravity: thanks, will look at it :) 14:41:40 oh brilliant 14:42:03 galehar: once I fixed up tome/box of beasts I was going to try to get a consensis on which were implementable ideas 14:42:11 it's not that i'm done with it, i'd just really like it to be committed 14:42:38 nfogravity: sure, no pb. I'll test it and if everything is fine, I'll commit it. 14:42:44 great, thank you 14:42:47 maybe not tonight though 14:42:51 sure 14:42:53 hmm, having trouble making a tome of destruction via wizard mode 14:42:58 can you read the code okay? 14:43:17 the old code was an atrocity, i tried to write something easily usable and extendable 14:43:22 I haven't looked at the new patch yet, but the first one was good 14:43:51 the new one just adds targetting, and changes the behaviour of &f to output attack and defense 14:44:01 nfogravity: i think i would just make it a potion, honestly, making it evoc doesn't seem to fit since it'd mostly be affecting non-evo buffs 14:44:04 thanks for the clone_mon hint 14:44:09 yeah, at the very least, the code is much better. If I'm missing anything, I'll add it myself, but I'm pretty sure I won't reject your patch! 14:44:11 donblas: &o:tome 14:44:24 mumra: thanks, i fail at wizard mode 14:44:39 Eronarn, the issue is that i'd like it to be something that undead can use 14:45:36 and galehar, great, thank you. i know you had ideas for the fight sim too 14:46:09 so i specifically wrote something that you can extend and use in other places 14:46:19 donblas: I'd say all the first ones, (from stones to fans) having been written by dpeg have a solid design. The ideas being 2 years old, might be good to go over it again. 14:47:09 galehar: I'll play around with implementing a few of them, outside of an options patch I haven't hacked on crawl much yet 14:49:16 so if I make the tome not have a 30% fail rate, spamming magic missile with it becomes trivial, the wiki suggests making it cost MP and trog hatred, but what MP should it cost (since it's a random spell 14:49:29 donblas: ok, if your first patch is good and you want to make more, we'll look over the page and make an implementable so you know which ideas are approved. 14:49:48 galehar: sounds reasonsable 14:51:51 -!- vadatajs has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:46 donblas: actually, I'm not really sure I like minmay's proposal for tome of destruction. Makes it a bit too much like a rod. 14:56:17 Also, how could it cost MP while you don't know what spell your going to cast? Not knowing the MP cost of an action can be problematic. 14:56:17 yeah, it's like a random rod that doesn't run out, which is a problem 14:56:36 doesn't it self-destruct after a while? 14:56:51 right now it does in one of the failure modes 14:57:05 but it has a 30% chance of bad things happening, and from what i can tell is never used 14:57:47 i really like the idea of a giant spellbook of random effects, but not sure how to fix it 14:58:18 ?? tome of destruction 14:58:18 tome of destruction[1/1]: Casts random conjurations when read. Power depends on evocation skill. Also explodes on occasion. You might also (un)luckily get a random freezing/poisonous cloud, or a hostile small abomination. The page's writing has no bearing on the spell produced. No one uses it outside of Sprint. 14:58:54 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:59:01 it could have charges (pages) like a wand, but that feels weird (and maybe requires a lot of code), could randomly run out of pages 14:59:15 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:59:45 or could cause short term stat drain/food some other resource 14:59:52 yeah, that's what I was thinking. Charges instead of a chance of breaking might be an improvement. But keep it hidden. 15:00:02 And it shouldn't be hard to code. Use item.plus like manuals for example. 15:00:49 if I make it have charges, should evocation still give better spells? or just more powerful ones 15:00:50 maybe having higher evo gives a chance to not use a charge, so you get more use? 15:01:03 then maybe it's a matter of adjusting the good/bad effects and the effect of evocations 15:01:27 mumra: good idea 15:01:29 i kinda like the pages with higher evo giving chance not to use charge, 15:01:48 give a full list of spells on reading page, but evo = stronger power 15:01:56 let me resay that 15:02:01 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:03 randomly pick a spell off the list on reading a page 15:02:48 does random2(15) give 0-14 or 0-15 15:02:53 maybe evo should also improve the chance of getting a good effect 15:02:57 0-14 15:03:20 galehar: i was going to have every page read be succesful since it had charges, should some fail 15:03:27 (and use/not use charge) 15:04:24 you still want failures, but less severe effects ... although note that both fog and self-targetted poison clouds can actually be good effects 15:04:40 fog is, poison only if you are resistant 15:05:16 i'll make chance of non-spell effect based on evoc, and getting those always burns a charge 15:06:59 donblas: post your ideas on the wiki to get additional feedback. 15:07:29 mumra: you're a golem freak ;) 15:07:46 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:10:27 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:27 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 15:11:39 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:42 galehar: is it really that obvious ? ;) 15:11:59 -!- vadatajs has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:25 player race, spell and now god? Yes, it's obvious! 15:13:26 also, I have to agree with your self analysis: far too complicated for a spell. 15:13:37 the golem race was nothing to do with me! 15:13:47 the golem factory was my proposal ;) 15:13:51 oh sorry then 15:14:11 galehar: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:magical:misc&#tome_of_destruction 15:17:12 removing the risk of harmful bad effect weaken the theme of the item a lot. OTOH, it's probably the main reason why it's not used. 15:18:30 I'd like it to keep a risk of harmful effect, but which effect and the chance to trigger are hard to balance. MarvinPA finally found the right balance for the crystal ball of energy, maybe he can help. 15:20:17 galehar: donblas mentioned a minor but good point in that thread, elemental evokables (fan/lamp/stone) should allow training the relevant element school, or is that already the case? 15:20:47 it's not 15:20:55 and I don't think it should be 15:21:05 the problem is right now they are useless IMO 15:21:08 I don't like the idea of items allowing to train magical schools 15:21:20 if you have elemenal skills, you can cast summon elemenal 15:21:28 donblas: changing the training wouldn't fix them 15:21:41 how about having evocation / 2 instead of the school when used from the item 15:21:45 -!- lord-naughty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:22:00 or the higher between that and the spell school, acutally 15:22:39 how about just removing the items, they're not interesting 15:22:50 they won't be interesting even if we change the formulas used 15:23:19 as summons go they're pretty boring, the spell isn't used very often, digging is the primary purpose 15:23:35 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:37 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:23:44 good point, replicating spells with items isn't very interesting 15:23:46 -!- lord-naughty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:54 Eronarn: we could do that, but I like evocations as a concept :) 15:24:01 <|amethyst> don't most wands replicate spells? 15:24:07 better to focus on finding more interesting effects than changing formulae 15:24:29 |amethyst: they do, but at least they have limited charges 15:24:43 an evokable summon that would feel right to me is like... a box of clockwork parts 15:24:48 and using evoc skill, you put them together 15:24:50 eventually it runs out 15:24:55 we could make the summoning items have internal charges as well 15:25:04 an unlike wands, don't show it 15:25:05 wands are ok, but we don't more and more evocable to duplicate spells 15:25:36 the wands that replicate spells are mostly directly damaging wands, and that's fine 15:25:44 it would be bad if we had wands of flight, wands of regen, etc. 15:25:55 there's the hexes wand too, but they are meh 15:26:07 <|amethyst> we have boots of levitation 15:26:12 i feel like at this rate, we should just kill rods, these evok items (and book), and remove Artificer as a background 15:26:14 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 15:26:24 donblas: there was some good rod discussion earlier 15:26:24 Eronarn: well, we do have rod of freezing cloud, rod of dmsl,... 15:26:29 galehar: those are bad :) 15:26:52 donblas: the general idea was something like rods actually using evoc for effect success/power, but not directly replicating spells 15:27:27 my thought was: wield a rod, have a power level you can change like changing quiver ammo, higher evoc skill unlocks higher power levels 15:27:42 so, in the end, it's the same conclusion for rods and other misc items: they'd be better if having unique effect instead of replicating spells 15:27:47 and actually activating the rod takes MP 15:27:50 rather than internal charges 15:27:51 the hard part is coming up with those effects 15:28:12 Eronarn: unless mp comes from evocations, that could be problem (and if not, then mages will want evocation) 15:28:27 donblas: yes, it'd give mp in that case 15:28:36 and it only gives mp from the highest of them right now, anyways 15:28:43 Eronarn: then wouldn't mages want it just for mp 15:29:05 Evocations give MP now 15:29:11 724d6bc3 15:29:24 for "mages" an additional +3 mp instead of an enhancer staff is rarely relevant, no? 15:29:24 <|amethyst> donblas: they will typically have high enough spellcasting that they won't get MP from evocations (or invocations) 15:29:45 <|amethyst> what about removing some of the spells that are duplicated? 15:29:50 one thing i would propose: no buff spells on rods 15:30:01 i think they should only be zap-at-other-things items 15:30:07 Eronarn: well yeah 15:30:12 what about summoning / abjur? 15:30:24 we have some rods of that already 15:30:36 |amethyst: heh good point, removing the spell would solve the issue of duplication :) 15:30:50 donblas: i don't think they should be paired, for sure 15:31:04 i'm dubious about a rod of summoning, unless it's summoning something very much unlike summ spells 15:31:40 well, i feel like my hacking around this afternoon is now moot, do you want me to code up a patch to remove book/summoning items? 15:32:38 an idea for a rod like i'm envisioning might be: crystalline rod. low level power, 1 MP fire a shard of crystal. med level power, 3 MP fire a spray of crystals (shotgun targeting). high level power, 5 MP summon a crystalline turret 15:33:11 and you just rotate quiver to choose which one you want to use 15:33:13 donblas: yeah, it seems like for now, we still need more ideas and design than code for evoc items. 15:34:02 an air one might be: airstrike, wind 'wall' that blocks projectiles crossing it, wind-based knockback attack 15:34:14 <|amethyst> galehar: in particular, what about making haste wand-only? 15:34:35 <|amethyst> the spell seems to be considered a no-brainer 15:34:46 donblas: if your Tome patch was finished, you can always post it on mantis for further feedback 15:35:09 |amethyst: i'd rather see it potion only 15:35:11 to hate on mummies 15:35:15 |amethyst: ooh, that's controversial :) 15:35:42 <|amethyst> and polymorph other for the opposite reason 15:35:50 I remember elliptic wondering during the tournament why nobody casted haste, so maybe the nerf is finally taking in 15:35:51 mumra: it wasn't, people suggested swapping it to charges and other stuff, which I agree with, but don't want to rework it if it's going to get rejected anyway 15:35:59 would need to have a look at stats 15:37:26 galehar: I was just incredulous at tiles players' tendency not to use it 15:37:50 ah ok 15:38:04 I spammed it all the time and I was worshipping Oka... 15:38:31 -!- donblas has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:38:39 elliptic: ideas on how to improve tome of destruction? 15:41:26 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:44:20 -!- mumra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:27 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:10 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:09 galehar: I don't think there is actually that much wrong with it... mainly just it has too high a chance of doing nothing and nobody likes being self-freezing clouded 16:11:10 I think simply trying to balance it as having stronger effects than an attack wand but being less predictable could work 16:11:43 sort of like makhleb's major destruction ability 16:13:14 people use it to very good effect in sprint, yeah 16:13:23 i don't think it's fundamentally useless or anything 16:14:04 free conjurations are nice! 16:17:06 looking back at the conversation, people seem concerned about the list of effects just duplicating spells... not being able to pick which effect you get makes it fundamentally different from rods or spells 16:18:53 so I don't think that should be a huge concern, though of course we want the list of effects to be as varied as possible 16:20:41 some bolts, some single-target, some explosions, some clouds, whatever other destructive effects we can shove in as possibilities (refrigeration? shatter?) 16:20:51 iirc the list isn't as interesting as it could be 16:27:35 yeah, currently the list at the upper end is just LCS + fireball + 6 different bolts 16:28:42 I guess one concern about the tome is that it is sort of similar to a deck of destruction 16:53:35 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56:06 -!- humeral has joined ##crawl-dev 16:57:00 I'm looking to make a group of serial vaults, but I want them to appear on different dungeon levels. Is there a vault which does something like that I can use for implementation ideas? 16:58:18 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00:35 -!- [HangedMan] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:02 <[HangedMan]> does "Consider gaze attacks to be attacks." make it no longer work through glass? 17:04:55 I think that's just so that they interrupt butchering and such 17:05:01 <[HangedMan]> oh phew 17:05:15 <[HangedMan]> no further gratification needed then 17:07:10 <[HangedMan]> roulette of golubria is mostly done, but I could use a luamancer to try and clean up my horribly repetitive code 17:13:39 <[HangedMan]> although really considering the nontrivial chance for banishment I should probably wait for portal_branches 17:14:07 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18:04 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:19 -!- vadatajs has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:29 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:41:02 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:47:06 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:56:46 eeviac the Draconian Blade (L27 DrWn) ASSERT(feat < NUM_FEATURES) in 'feature.cc' at line 24 failed on turn 106777. (Abyss) 18:19:33 -!- lord-naughty1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:27:24 Yunor the Exhumer (L1 TrDK) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (0,0) (you) (D:1) 18:27:28 Yunor the Exhumer (L1 TrDK) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (0,0) (you) (D:1) 18:27:43 Yunor the Exhumer (L1 TrDK) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (0,0) (you) (D:1) 18:29:11 03galehar * rafbd131893d7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (157 files in 3 dirs): New blood splat tiles (omndra #4612). 18:30:26 -!- qqryq has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:32:53 -!- alefury has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:13 Yunor the Exhumer (L1 TrDK) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (0,0) (you) (D:1) 18:35:48 Yunor the Exhumer (L1 TrDK) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (0,0) (you) (D:1) 18:40:21 -!- tholmes has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:10 -!- tholmes has joined ##crawl-dev 18:41:24 <[HangedMan]> !learn add roulette_of_golubria Somewhat done wizlab, abyss-themed and containing a ton of teleporters. See http://pastebin.com/iW1ZF7gw for the wip. 18:41:28 roulette of golubria[1/1]: Somewhat done wizlab, abyss-themed and containing a ton of teleporters. See http://pastebin.com/iW1ZF7gw for the wip. 18:42:17 03kilobyte * rd866d6c114a9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (initfile.cc startup.cc): Revert "Translate every game to dwarven or j??gerkin. Set "language=boring" if you're uncool." 18:44:04 <[HangedMan]> abyss in tiles is not a very easy place to get any aesthetic inspirations from considering that it's a visual mess 18:47:05 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-877-gd866d6c (32) 18:48:30 <[HangedMan]> are there any ways to make that teleporter code in the pastebin link any cleaner? 18:49:36 <[HangedMan]> ... I just transfered from latest trunk and my god changed from vehumet to xom 18:49:59 <|amethyst> from latest trunk to what? 18:50:14 <[HangedMan]> from yesterday's trunk 18:52:59 Vortex (L12 TrTm) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 435 failed. (D (Sprint)) 18:53:45 MarvinPA: nice April 2 joke 18:54:00 [HangedMan]: sure, it can be cleaned up. I'd say don't worry about that right now though 18:54:15 those sorts of teleporters should probably be made into real dungeon features anyway 18:54:25 your wizlab is (as far as I know) the 4th vault to use them 18:54:34 <[HangedMan]> teleporter, zigsprint, ice cave teleporter 18:54:49 there's a rare vault that can show up in V as well 18:55:01 <[HangedMan]> s|teleporter,|the_teleporter| 18:55:54 <[HangedMan]> considering that the best tiles are probably going to be new ones I guess it'll wait in storage nearly done, then 18:56:22 yeah trying to make it look like the abyss in tiles isn't going to be pretty... 18:56:29 I'd suggest sticking with a certain colour scheme 18:57:02 aha, I found the bug 18:57:04 magenta is taken by iskenderun. Maybe green and blue would look good 18:57:17 if (you.religion = GOD_XOM) 18:57:26 wait what, did i do that? 18:57:28 oh hahaha 18:57:34 [HangedMan]: also, remember how you wanted to have non-green crystal in a vault? Well, this is an encompass vault. You can have your coloured crystal in this one :P 18:57:36 oops 18:57:40 <[HangedMan]> hah 18:58:19 <[HangedMan]> I only wanted coloured crystal because out of all of the shades the only ones I think that look any good are the white and gray ones 18:58:36 clearly i am bad at testing patches 18:58:37 keep in mind we already have a lot of generic coloured walls (crystal, metal, bricks, various floors, etc) 18:58:54 and just because something is called wall_zot_foo doesn't mean it's exclusive to zot. I bet you can find tiles that look good 18:58:55 alternatively, it was a totally deliberate joke and a great success 18:59:14 to test the new behavior, obviously 18:59:18 <[HangedMan]> well, yeah, it's just the 3D appearance of the wall is kinda silly 18:59:52 never noticed any problems myself 19:00:00 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00:35 the most important thing with picking walls and floor is just making sure you can tell what everything is, without any brain power 19:00:57 as in, you shouldn't have to look at the screen for 5 seconds just to figure out which spaces are walls 19:01:04 <[HangedMan]> heh 19:01:19 <[HangedMan]> maybe I could use the crystal_squares set? 19:01:34 <[HangedMan]> which would also work nicely with those acolyte vaults 19:02:20 03elliptic * rbfa6a02d32fe 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix all characters being forced to worship Xom every turn. 19:03:14 kilobyte / Napkin / due / I can never remember who else can do this: could you trigger a CDO update? this bug is... rather bad, if hilarious 19:03:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:30 what's the bug? 19:03:33 ROTFL 19:03:35 oh. wow 19:03:43 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 19:03:47 <|amethyst> you should change that to if (you.god == GOD_XOM || you.your_name == "HousePet" && you.god = GOD_XOM) 19:04:02 Bestest. Bug. Ever. 19:04:03 at least it's still april 1 in north america :P 19:04:06 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 19:04:26 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-878-gbfa6a02 (32) 19:07:31 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-878-gbfa6a02 19:42:19 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:44:18 Mini vaults for elf and lair and a possible spider rune vault (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5519) by Guppyfry 19:49:08 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 19:50:07 elliptic: ahahaha 20:09:21 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:09:30 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:00 -!- heteroy__ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:01 <|amethyst> !tell Napkin the dgl login screen still says "Only Stone Soup 0.10 counts for the tournament!" 20:19:02 |amethyst: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 20:22:37 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:22:39 -!- heteroy__ is now known as heteroy 20:50:17 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: medgno] 20:58:16 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:00:26 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:43 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:00:43 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 21:06:38 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:50 -!- HangedMan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:18:05 <|amethyst> so, we were talking earlier about non-spell effects for rods/evokables. What about a rod of porkalator and snakes to sticks? :) 21:24:43 initial impressions of Xom are that he's much, much better now, however I'm at 8 (12) 11 (17) 12 (17) stats so the stat drain is still as awful as ever 21:25:31 what were the main changes to xom? 21:26:10 wasn't stat drain toned down a bit? 21:26:18 Is it hitting more often, or were the changes just too minor to notice? 21:27:00 I think it's because of the frequency, most of the draining is -1s and -2s 21:27:06 |amethyst: one thing I have thought (for some time) is that rod-only spells are cool, even if they aren't particularly flashy 21:27:30 rods themselves need work, I just like the idea of rare spells like that, it's fun 21:30:53 oh... yeah I forgot Xom also gave me deterioration 21:31:00 but he seems to do that a lot 21:32:02 <|amethyst> what about a one-use item of summon player illusion (non-permanent of course)? 21:32:46 |amethyst: heh, that would be powerful. I'd make it a misc item, not a scroll 21:32:49 maybe some kind of magic mirror 21:32:52 <|amethyst> that's what I meant 21:32:54 <|amethyst> yeah 21:33:15 Summon Friendly Player Ghost 21:33:22 would be good to remove a misc item if it gets added 21:33:39 of course, using it would have a chance of being hostile, subject to evoc skill... 21:34:09 or it could get hd subject to evoc, or something. It would have to be one or the other. Hostile chance seems more amusing 21:34:21 <|amethyst> there were suggestions to remove the elemental summoning items 21:34:52 elemental summoning items are pretty awful as is 21:36:11 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:44 maybe if earth elementals weren't low hp golems... 21:36:48 earth elementals can be a bit useful but the spell is a better source of them 21:37:06 i used them once in zot against orbs of fire, I think heteroy suggested it to me 21:37:16 orbs of fire, etc 21:37:20 hah 21:37:44 lamp of fire is much worse then the stone or fan, though 21:38:12 well I take back the much much better comment 21:38:30 this char would be 1000x times better off without him 21:38:53 st_: what happened? :P 21:39:11 Int: 7 (18) 21:39:14 is my guess 21:39:14 my experience with xom is fairly limited, but I find getting "teddy bear" early makes a huge difference 21:47:56 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:39 03dolorous * r1e365420f7b4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc xom.cc): Add formatting fixes. 22:02:50 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 22:04:32 -!- HangedMan_ has left ##crawl-dev 22:09:03 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 22:13:34 -!- [HangedMan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:24:46 to recap my game I got det 3 and then went Zin and then my str got to ~2 and then I went Ely for purification and then I died 22:44:45 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:32:41 No warning on leaving Mnoleg level without the rune (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5520) by crate 23:56:11 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]]