00:04:23 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-782-gf2d1b03 (32) 00:17:31 03evilmike * r4cb8ab37254f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (branches/spider.des builder/shops.des): Make some floating vaults minivaults. 00:20:21 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-783-g4cb8ab3 00:25:19 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:37 -!- capablanca has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27:21 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 00:27:44 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27:44 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 00:41:58 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:38 -!- clouded_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:32 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:07:17 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:27 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:14 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:17:47 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:30:01 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:54 -!- ophanim has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:35:18 -!- HousePet has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:21 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:27 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:09:27 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 02:09:41 !tv jaeger lair:8 killer=balrug 02:09:42 1. Jaeger, XL12 DDNe, T:17820 requested for FooTV. 02:12:18 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 02:12:28 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:12:28 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 02:13:11 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:36 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:50 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 02:24:47 -!- qqryq has joined ##crawl-dev 02:38:16 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:40:55 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:49 -!- xnavy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:53:51 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:57:31 -!- lord-naughty has joined ##crawl-dev 03:02:39 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 03:06:30 -!- xnavy has joined ##crawl-dev 03:09:34 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:02 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:15:14 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:33:01 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:21 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 03:44:29 elliptic: hi! I've put together a proposal for branch length reduction: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:layout 03:46:27 elliptic: also, what are your plans for 0.11? Do you have a todo? 03:49:41 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:49:43 galehar: hi, I haven't really made any plans yet :) have been away from crawl for the last two weeks 03:51:09 I noticed :) 03:52:00 I'm going to make a proposal for an overhaul of melee formulae 03:54:01 Start by making weapon speed linear from skill 0 to 27, then try to balance it by changing the damage formula and factoring stats more heavily 03:54:28 I'll set up a wiki page about it, then an experimental git branch 03:54:42 the branch length reduction stuff looks pretty good... I wonder about shortening lair subbranches to 4 levels, but maybe making them more interesting at 5 levels is possible 03:55:28 I'd like a steeper progression for lair branches, elf and crypt 03:55:59 have high level monsters more common at depth 3 and 4 instead of almost exclusive to the end 03:56:54 that could help, but having five levels with a very restricted monster set is still a lot 03:58:14 about melee formulae, removing the min delay magic number would definitely be good... rebalancing after that will be a lot of work, of course 03:58:56 maybe it will be too much for 0.11, but it won't happen if we never start! 03:59:22 yes, starting on it is good even if it doesn't make it in to 0.11 :) 03:59:36 so I'm starting it, and I'll probably ask for your help 04:00:11 first question: currently, delay is linear to skill. Would it be better to make speed linear instead? 04:00:40 so that raising UC from 0 to 1 gives the same speed increase as increasing it from 26 to 27, which isn't the case now. 04:01:18 I think that probably makes sense, yes 04:03:01 next, I'm thinking of making a str requirement to use weapon, a bit like armour. Simple one is: need base_damage of str or suffer penalties. 04:03:33 increase the effect of weapon skill to compensate 04:03:56 not sure... it should definitely be much smoother than the armour penalty for insufficient strength 04:04:41 I hope that would lead to more variety in weapon used. Choose the best for your char instead of the best of its class. 04:04:53 so not always the same each game 04:05:07 having specific breakpoints is bad though 04:05:50 if having strength < base_damage gives a penalty, having strength > base_damage should give a bonus 04:05:57 yes 04:06:32 but the penalty should be somewhat exponential and the bonus linear 04:06:49 galehar: grabbing CAO morgues took three days again (even with multiple threads); what info would you want first? 04:07:45 to gather stats for the melee project? 04:07:49 hmm... 04:08:02 galehar: I'd really prefer using formulas without so many piecewise-defined functions in them 04:08:03 for comparison, on CDO it's: find -name 'morgue-*.txt'|tar cfJ morgues.tar.xz -T- 04:08:32 how about the breakdown on weapon used? 04:08:33 I think a better way to get the effect you want would be to use accuracy penalties 04:08:50 elliptic: piecewise-defined functions? 04:08:53 elliptic: yeah, accuracy has about 0 effect currently 04:09:00 kilobyte: not true 04:09:09 having really low accuracy is very noticeable 04:09:22 elliptic: so not enough str -> accuracy penalty? 04:09:24 but having medium accuracy and really high accuracy are almost identical 04:09:56 elliptic: I'm grossly simplifying, yeah, but a big weapon is so much better than a weak one, unless your accuracy is truly abysmal 04:10:21 anyone can recommend an online plotting site? So I can share graphs with an URL 04:11:20 galehar: by piecewise-defined functions I mean stuff like f(x) = max(x,0) 04:11:39 ie, if you want a halberd/glaive, you should switch around the point when skill + weapon acc - armour penalty is around 0 04:11:53 or even stuff like f(x) = e^x for x > 0 and f(x) = 1+x for x <= 0 04:12:05 kilobyte: yeah 04:12:43 hitting more often doesn't matter that much if a spear has 6 damage, halberd 13 04:13:53 hardly any monsters have good AC, so later on enchantment + skill + slaying make 1-handers better 04:14:28 elliptic: oh, we probably want to bump the effect of skill on damage as well 04:14:57 I think if we increase the strength/skill requirement to get to a reasonable accuracy level and make the cutoff between abysmal accuracy and okay accuracy less abrupt, then things might work okay 04:15:49 could even give a global malus to accuracy 04:16:50 we can make slower, more damaging weapons more efficient, but require more skill/strength to be usable because of accuracy concerns 04:18:54 perhaps with some factor for 1/2-handed as well, as currently 2-handers start being effective only when the game is basically over 04:19:04 I mean, in mid-game 04:19:30 with very low skill, you don't care much about mindelay, only damage/delay 04:19:59 well, a few dangerous early-game monsters have substantial AC (orc warriors mainly) 04:20:31 with skill 14, a weapon of delay 14 is nearly twice as good as one with 20 (assuming equal damage) 04:21:10 yeah, so early game using 1-handers is not a no-brainer 04:21:47 especially since you don't have a shield yet or didn't have a chance to get enough skill to use it effectively 04:22:03 well, when delay formula is changed, we'll want to move base delays a bit closer together I think 04:22:18 IMO early game shields are pretty terrible currently 04:23:52 because of SH rising sharply with skill, or...? 04:24:09 or EV/weapon speed penalty? 04:24:16 Ooo discussion 04:24:18 because you basically can't use a 1.5-handed weapon with them 04:25:13 which is mostly good -- you want to use noob stuff early then upgrade 04:25:16 the penalty is quite huge until you bring shield skill up, and you have much better skills to raise early game 04:25:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:26:04 I'm really not happy using any 1-hander early on unless it is enchanted or has a good brand like venom or elec 04:26:16 they are just useless against anything with AC 04:26:28 tridents are another matter 04:26:40 war axes are 1-handed, having a progression to broads makes sense. Same for long blades, and maces. Spears are the only ones hit quite badly. 04:26:42 about delay, I don't like much that almost all weapons end up at the same speed 04:27:03 elec :D 04:27:16 if we make them all scaling smoothly from 0 to 27, then I think min delay should always be base delay / 2 or something 04:27:36 kilobyte: unenchanted war axes, long blades, maces are all really bad early game though 04:27:37 yeah, elec is quite ridiculous very early on, useless later. 25 damage is insta-kill on D:1. 04:27:44 not useless 04:28:37 later on, nearly everything is rElec or flying 04:29:11 non-resistant: stone giants, yaktaurs, draconians 04:29:12 kilobyte: giants, draconians, orb guardians 04:29:45 also non-ancient liches 04:30:14 non-ancients are susceptible? intetersting... and inconsistent 04:30:25 @??lich 04:30:25 lich (15L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 59-99 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(293), 02cold++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4059 | Sp: b.cold (3d29), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d34), teleport self / b.draining (3d24), animate dead, summon undead, throw frost (3d.. 04:30:30 @??ancient lich 04:30:30 ancient lich (16L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 27 | Health: 83-131 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(504), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 11670 | Sp: b.cold (3d37), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d44), teleport self / b.draining (3d30), animate dead, .. 04:31:10 (the spleling in my last line deserves a medal) 04:31:11 should have made the elec brand create a full circuit rather than relying on grounding :P 04:31:29 they're not dried out enough 04:31:30 ie, a brand of "tase me bro"? 04:31:58 galehar: I think delay should move closer together as skill increases, but remain different even at 27 skill 04:32:28 like, use some formula that would make all weapons the same delay at 40 skill or 45 skill, if people could get that high 04:32:39 kinda weird that flying blocks static discharge when it doesn't ground until the last target too, but I'm off topic :) 04:32:53 elliptic: my point against the brand is that it's purely additive. +25 damage on 1/3 hits is _massive_ when you're doing 2-3 damage per turn, doesn't scale up later. 04:33:27 kilobyte: well, maybe making it be partially additive and partially multiplicative would be good 04:33:49 I'm fine with some brands being much better early than late, or with fast weapons than slow... but you are right that elec takes this to an extreme 04:33:50 Or partly use a relavent element skill? 04:34:29 draining does a good job with this, for instance 04:34:30 pain is quite silly with being omgwtfhax with a quick blade, a joke on an exec axe 04:34:50 but at least is needs a skill 04:35:12 since it has both an additive factor that is quite nice early on (+1d3 on 2/3 of hits, iirc) and a multiplicative factor 04:40:59 bmfx (L26 VpEn) (Elf:5) 04:43:06 !lm bmfx type=crash -log 04:43:06 1. bmfx, XL26 VpEn, T:123255 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/bmfx/crash-bmfx-20120328-094055.txt 04:45:26 yay, one with a core, cool. Need to wait for the permission cronjob to come up, but it's nice to have a debuggable crash for a change. 04:49:04 talking about brands, what with reaping? It never generates except on a joke weapon (scythe), a joke unrand (Botono) and a so-so one (Zonguldrok) 04:54:30 Zonguldrok is a decently designed weapon at the moment I think, though possibly it should feed you or something 04:54:42 I'd be in favor of removing reaping on the others 04:55:27 Napkin: is there a reason webtiles binaries are not world-readable? 04:55:55 the brand was broken for years, only quite recently it started to work right again 04:56:22 fr yred will brand a weapon with reaping 04:58:54 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:59:06 kilobyte: the brand is really rarely relevant in combat, is the problem 04:59:50 only if you are fighting multiple monsters and you can kill one and it leaves a corpse and you need the help of the zombie for the others 05:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-783-g4cb8ab3 05:00:17 more often, it is just the same as casting animate skeleton/dead after every fight 05:00:37 or during 05:01:09 yeah, casters can get the same effect for very little cost 05:01:10 as an early-game brand it could be somewhat interesting I guess 05:01:43 (except food might get annoying) 05:02:40 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:46 -!- qqryq has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:11:00 when touching ankuses before, I left them with a tiny weight as a harmless oddity. Not sure if there's any point in letting them live, though. 05:11:12 kilobyte: I'm so glad you didn't typo that :D 05:11:32 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 05:11:47 due: ... 05:11:54 :p 05:12:43 :D 05:13:14 I mean, having odd weapons is usually cool, but that'd be more unrand land, and even there I quite fail to see them being interesting. 05:17:11 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:17:51 I don't see much point in ankus either... we have too many 1h maces as it is 05:20:34 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:59 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:57 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 05:25:08 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 05:28:29 delay = (base_delay * 27) / (27 + skill) 05:28:37 speed increase linearly 05:28:51 min_delay = base_delay / 2 reached at sk 27 05:29:29 elliptic: that does make them move closer together but remain different 05:34:48 I meant closer together proportionally 05:34:59 however maybe keeping the simpler formula is better, not sure 05:35:42 you may want to deal with monster weapon speeds while we're here 05:39:07 for speed 10 monsters, it's 10 plus half of weapon's delay above 10 (ie, 15 for exec axes) 05:39:33 for speed != 10 monsters, it's some monstrous formula I'm not paid enough to comprehend 05:40:21 it makes little sense that quick blades are still delay 10 there 05:41:03 we could go for symmetry and use the same formula as the player, using hd for skill. Not sure about the balance impact. 05:42:29 giving many monsters attacks with delay<10 isn't great, though 05:42:48 it's more complicated for monsters with multiple attacks, too 05:43:11 right. Let's focus on the player first :) 05:44:29 yes, after we have a formula for the player we can decide whether it would work for monsters too... 05:45:52 looks like monster melee is a giant pile of unused code and incorrect comments 05:46:54 for example, comments claim that second attack costs energy; it doesn't 05:48:51 or, that 2nd attack has the weapon's delay cut to 1/3 (2/3 in the code), which is almost never above 10 so it does nothing for everyone but Ignacio -- or rather, would do nothing if that code was ever visited 05:49:41 galehar: so you may want to think about nuking monster weapon speed code and writing it from scratch :p 05:51:23 kilobyte: ok, I'll think about it. But player first. 05:51:46 Napkin: care to chmod a+r /srv/dgamelaunch/bin/crawl-web-0.10-fa280cc 05:51:54 kilobyte: is there a simple way to grab someone's git clone as a branch? 05:52:14 galehar: how about a player delay formula like base_delay / (1 + C * skill * base_delay) 05:52:19 for some suitable constant C 05:52:52 i.e. speed = base_speed + C * skill 05:53:06 C being the same for all weapons, right? 05:53:09 yes 05:53:20 I'll experiment with it, thanks! 05:53:34 galehar: after you fetch, those branches are available as $REMOTE/$BRANCH 05:53:53 note we'll have to adjust all our base delays with most of these proposals anyway 05:54:57 galehar: you can then make a local branch to follow it (needed for a non-detached checkout), or do anything else you want 05:55:16 like, say, "git log bmh/abyss". 05:56:41 kilobyte: thanks, I'll try it. 05:59:21 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 06:04:09 -!- qqryq has joined ##crawl-dev 06:04:53 chmod g+r crawl-web-0.10-fa280cc, kilobyte 06:04:53 Napkin: You have 13 messages. Use !messages to read them. 06:10:00 Napkin: I care only about user "crawl" being able to read it, yeah. Thanks! 06:11:45 elliptic: would this work for monster weapon speed: (10+delay)/2, scaled by monster's speed without fancy formulas 06:12:20 -!- nfogravity has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:13:40 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:59 kilobyte: it certainly sounds better than what is currently there :P 06:14:49 (do put div_rand_rounds everywhere, also) 06:16:05 might add shield and/or armour penalties too 06:16:55 well armour shouldn't affect delay... do you mean to accuracy? 06:21:05 ah, it indeed doesn't for players anymore 06:22:05 so accuracy then, would give a notch of realism, as you can already see that if that orc takes several times as long to kill it must have a plate or such 06:26:05 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:31 03kilobyte * rc373b29efe99 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Comment a comment. 06:38:42 03kilobyte * r3224fde3c188 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Don't try to generate invalid ranged brands, don't do pointless re-rolls. 06:38:42 03kilobyte * r0c49a3be4be6 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Greatly simplify monster attack delay code, make quick blades do something. 06:38:42 03kilobyte * raf8b9e6a33f3 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: No reason to ban rN on weapons with evil brands. 06:38:42 03kilobyte * r0f299c7aa8a2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (14 files in 6 dirs): Ankusicide. 06:38:43 03kilobyte * rd97e13bad620 10/crawl-ref/source/ (21 files): Wrap some egregiously long lines in the source. 06:46:21 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:50:09 03kilobyte * r9d7f21b695f8 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Add a couple of asserts, just in case. 06:50:20 03kilobyte * r47b57067b2c1 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Don't crash when a friendly monster casts emergency Vampire Draining. 06:53:47 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:10 03MarvinPA 07stone_soup-0.10 * r11e630fdf287 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Change "extremely resistant" to "immune" in monster descriptions 06:54:10 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * rd5aaf79a2896 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Don't let most ways to delete a mutation mess with Appendage. 06:54:20 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r76b9713a6b80 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Don't crash when a friendly monster casts emergency Vampire Draining. 07:14:45 -!- HousePet has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:19:40 Arachne tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5505) by nicolae 07:21:47 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:24:04 hrm, how to gently say that an ill-aligned combination of half of an old Kirke tile with the "spider" tile, isn't that good 07:26:20 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:26 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:00:27 fr unique that turns you into a spider 08:08:16 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:01 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:04 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:39:32 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59:49 -!- Nexos has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:56 (CAO) Drawn damnation card (while Tombed); got banished and I now get "Item buggily placed in feature at (37, 31)". Is that a known issue? 09:06:18 = screen does not respect easy_exit_menu (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5506) by mageykun 09:06:35 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:37 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:59 Is it okay if we borrow DCSS unique monster names as default bot names for a different open source game? 09:16:10 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:45 especially Agnes, Antaeus, Arachne, Asmodeus, Azrael, Boris, Chuck, Dispater, Donald, Edmund, the Enchantress, Ereshkigal, Erica, Frances, Frederick, Geryon, Grinder, Harold, Ignacio, Jessica, Jory, Joseph, Josephine, Jozef, Khufu, Kirke, the Lernaean Hydra, Mara, Maud, Maurice, Murray, Nellie, Nessos, Nikola, Norris, Polyphemus, Psyche, Roxanne, Sigmund, Sonja, Terence, Tiamat 09:21:08 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:21:54 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:41 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:40 Should I try to save my game? 09:27:36 <|amethyst> Nexos: Yes, then make a backup of your save (under Advanced) and post a link at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5207 09:27:48 <|amethyst> the bug is closed, but it sounds like maybe it needs to be re-opened 09:27:53 <|amethyst> was this 0.10 or trunk? 09:28:06 Isn't 4924 more appropriate? 0.10 CAO 09:28:34 <|amethyst> actually, yeah 09:28:50 BTW, where is this "advanced" thing? 09:29:12 Wasn't it sthg like !copysave that is to be used? 09:29:36 <|amethyst> Nexos: after you select '1' for 0.10, you can press 'A' for advanced options instead of 'P' for play 09:29:46 <|amethyst> hm 09:29:49 <|amethyst> !copysave 09:29:51 Usage: !copysave . Name is case-sensitive. Reason must not be empty. 09:29:59 <|amethyst> oh, okay 09:30:05 <|amethyst> yeah, I guess that would work too 09:30:14 <|amethyst> !copysave Neil testing 09:30:15 Cannot find save for Neil. 09:30:18 <|amethyst> !copysave neil testing 09:30:19 Cannot find save for neil. 09:30:24 <|amethyst> oh right, no CAO save for me 09:30:33 i don't think copysave works anymore? or maybe it does, dunno 09:30:49 OK I'll try the "advanced" backup thing 09:31:51 OK that worked, although what that "Backup [n]ormal save character?" actually stands for 09:36:51 I think !copysave hasn't ever worked in the time I've been on IRC 09:37:19 (over 2.5 years) 09:39:16 Maybe it doesn't like when different CAO/IRC nicks are used? 09:39:38 copying a save here won't help, the damage was already done 09:40:30 the two other bugs that gave this result were uninitialized variables in Worley generation 09:40:48 kilobyte: you mean backuping the save won't help resolve those bugs? 09:52:35 03kilobyte * r1a3de6bd8ded 10/crawl-ref/source/json.cc: Fatal conditions should be fatal. 09:52:46 03kilobyte * r3eeee3f3ccb8 10/crawl-ref/source/json.cc: Reformat json.cc to Crawl's standards, do backtraces on assert failures. 09:52:46 03kilobyte * r94032bac3553 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Make Frederick's armour one class lighter (scale/chain/splint). 09:52:46 03kilobyte * r48e776db5e2a 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Allow building without assertions. 09:53:01 -!- Nexos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:11 03dolorous * r1bbcb5a8c127 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Make sure that tentacles from Beastly Appendage properly override claws. 09:58:46 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:10 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:11 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 10:03:46 tentacles from beastly appendage are supposed to override claws? I thought you weren't supposed to get a beastly appendage if it would mean losing an existing mutation... 10:11:48 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:15 yeah, that seems backward 10:26:05 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:06 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:30:07 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 10:30:29 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-796-g1bbcb5a (32) 10:34:36 -!- qqryq has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:57 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:16 03MarvinPA 07boulder_beetles * r16960783c7b3 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-project.cc: Use HD to determine to-hit for shielding boulders 10:48:17 03MarvinPA 07boulder_beetles * r119f6e11aa7e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-project.cc: Whitespace/indentation fixes 10:48:17 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:48:27 03MarvinPA 07boulder_beetles * r88fd05d57f04 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/traps/boulders.des: Boulder vault updates (mumra) 10:49:23 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:08 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:12 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:18 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:55:48 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:27 -!- syllogism- has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:01:40 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:05 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:06:14 03MarvinPA 07boulder_beetles * r1e993d536049 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Don't let boulder beetles start rolling while confused 11:08:45 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:39 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:32:12 -!- lord-naughty has left ##crawl-dev 11:33:33 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:56 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:39 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:05:39 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 12:16:24 03dolorous * r99c50197393f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Revert "Make Frederick's armour one class lighter (scale/chain/splint)." 12:18:11 personally I don't see anything wrong with Frederick usually having plate (maybe occasionally storm dragon armour)... getting L6 spells castable in plate by the end of D is pretty doable 12:19:46 yeah, casting nasty conjurations in heavy armour is his gimmick, seems fine to me really 12:20:46 presumably unlike the player, he just didn't bother spending a bunch of xp on getting silly charms and tloc spells castable in armour :P 12:21:06 he did raise hexes for invis though... 12:22:12 what about giving him darkness 12:22:18 it'd work well with BOI 12:22:33 (or is he lcs? i forget) 12:23:22 his spell set could definitely use some work 12:23:55 @??frederick 12:23:55 Frederick (03@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 159 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 27 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 5373 | Sp: mystic blast (3d25), b.cold (3d30), invisibility, animate dead, iron shot (3d36). 12:23:59 he is just an iron shot / bolt of cold / invis lich with IMB instead of IOOD 12:24:02 animate dead has gotta go 12:24:10 yes 12:24:24 like, who goes around casting animate dead in heavy armour :P 12:25:01 hmm, what earth stuff isn't on anything yet that'd be good for him... 12:26:16 oh you know what darkness might be good on? vampires 12:26:52 i guess people might cart them around, though, which would be bad 12:26:59 darkness on monsters sounds tricky, yeah 12:28:01 I'd be happy just giving frederick two earth conjurations and nothing else, if the earth conjurations weren't all identical... 12:28:28 elliptic: a thing i have wanted to do for a while is to make one out of iron shot or throw icicle pin targets to walls 12:28:32 he has good melee and armour, he doesn't need great spell versatility 12:29:15 something like: if hit and wall behind you and can be pinned, gain status effect preventing movement, and delete status effect if you move in other ways 12:30:13 maybe that plus some new short range earth spell? 12:31:06 i kind of like the idea of a spell that does Shatter's effects in a much smaller area 12:31:43 or we could finally implement gravity-based spells :( 12:38:12 if I were reorganizing earth/conj attack spells, I'd probably want to change both IMB and one of iron shot/LCS to have some sort of interesting effect 12:38:25 noone wants to cart summonspam vampires 12:39:44 unfortunately I have no IMB ideas... I think kilobyte wants to turn iron shot into some sort of shotgun-style spell, which could be good 12:41:16 (IMB is simultaneously too similar to both stone arrow and throw icicle, and I like those spells better) 12:42:03 chance of trample effect? 12:43:50 could work... lower damage a bit, change range in one direction or the other, and give a chance of knockback 12:44:15 03dolorous * r46b94181bdcf 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Revert "Revert "Make Frederick's armour one class lighter (scale/chain/splint)."" 12:44:15 03dolorous * rfd4246e03ba8 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Revert "Make sure that tentacles from Beastly Appendage properly override claws." 12:48:56 I'm not sure whether a spell with chance of knockback should be short-range or long-range 12:49:09 thinking long-range with chance of knockback higher at short range 12:50:56 actually, it occurs to me that changing IMB into a spell that works better at shorter ranges would make it complement IOOD 12:51:14 that sounds sort of interesting, yeah 12:55:55 extra power in corridors 13:03:16 Awww, kobolds are too small to wield the orb. 13:04:04 oh, for some reason that reminded me that I want to make it impossible to drop the orb once you've picked it up 13:04:08 or to throw it or whatever 13:05:13 since the only real purpose of that seems to be spoily tricks to enable cTele quickly or to allow people to make the game unwinnable 13:15:53 that'd be good, yeah 13:16:20 aye 13:19:06 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:14 maybe make having -ctele not orb-holding dependant? if people want to throw orbs in lava i�d say let them. otherwise �handle with care�? 13:19:33 -!- lord-naughty has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:16 making -cTele not dependent on holding the orb would be easy but there's some argument about this not making enough sense 13:21:22 that's how it used to work, yeah 13:21:59 and amusing though it is, orb destruction wouldn't be much of a loss :P 13:22:13 also occasionally people do accidentally drop the orb 13:22:40 oh actually yeah 13:22:47 i turned of "D" because of that 13:22:50 off* 13:23:00 heh 13:23:22 I still haven't learned to use D myself, though it does seem like it should be useful 13:23:45 for the most part my autopickup excludes enough things that i don't generally need it, now 13:23:47 *I* hardly remember to use it, and I implemented it... 13:24:03 D is great, I use it so much 13:24:12 clouded_: Good to hear :) 13:24:22 when going through loot in places like elf:5, vault:8 especially 13:24:27 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:24:29 oh, by the way, while we are on the subject of things we really shouldn't let the player do, does anyone know whether the bug letting people kill themselves after death still exists? 13:25:52 i think i fixed that 13:26:25 in 628a8de0fb4e 13:28:03 oh good :) 13:32:16 -!- Heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47:29 -!- Heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:50:52 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:01 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:51:47 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:19 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:24 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:04 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:27:55 Flavour is easy for not allowing the orb to be dropped. 14:28:04 "You cannot drop the precious!" 14:28:34 indeed 14:31:45 "The orb prevents you from getting rid of it so easily!" 14:32:10 (but would ?rc then allow you to drop it?) 14:32:28 \philosospriggan 14:34:44 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:35:22 surely a measly common scroll wouldn't work on the orb 14:43:05 -!- lord-naughty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:50:18 -!- lord-naughty has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:47 -!- JoshTriplett has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:58 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:22:28 Does the lua interface have the ability to enable/focus/disable skills, other than by sending keys? 15:22:35 If not, does that seem like a reasonable addition? 15:22:50 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:00 I'd like to automate the current manual process of fixing up my skills sensibly at the start of every game. 15:25:43 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:25:43 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 15:30:38 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:32:34 I have a ring of protection from ice, Fire that is only a ring of protection from Fire. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5507) by alanpost 15:41:07 -!- vivec has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:19 KITEM: R = broad axe unrand:obsidian_axe ident:all, \ shield unrand:shield_of_the_gong ident:all, \ plate armour unrand:maxwells_patent_armour ident:all 15:41:31 does this mean that all 3 of those items are on the one spot K is placed? in a stack? 15:42:54 vivec: Did you get that line from zigsprint? 15:43:04 yeah, it's in a spring .des 15:43:06 *sprint 15:43:25 vivec: It does indeed mean that those three items sit in a stack in the same spot. 15:43:32 vivec: Take a look at the opening room of zigsprint. 15:43:36 alright, thanks 15:47:59 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:49:12 <|amethyst> err 15:49:16 <|amethyst> looking at 5507 15:49:31 <|amethyst> How would a ring have been inscribed "protection from ice", anyway? 15:50:10 <|amethyst> crawl calls it "protection from cold", and in any event the inscription would say "rC" 15:52:06 |amethyst: I don't know about that detail (probably a transcription error), but the answer to the question seems fairly obvious. 15:52:17 <|amethyst> JoshTriplett: oh? 15:52:27 It sounds like a ring with rC and Fire, not rC and rF. :) 15:52:32 <|amethyst> it's not 15:52:36 In other words, a ring of fire without the rC-. 15:52:36 <|amethyst> it has Fire but no rC 15:52:44 <|amethyst> he gets rC- from wearing it 15:53:00 Gets rC-, or just doesn't cancel out rC- that he already had? 15:53:31 <|amethyst> I don't see any other equipment that would give rC- 15:53:44 Hmmm, reading the reddit post (and why is a Crawl bug report on reddit?) does indeed suggest that the ring gives rC- like a ring of Fire. 15:54:01 <|amethyst> I'm looking at the dump http://pastebin.com/HL4jWLLR 15:54:12 Yeah, that sounds like a bug; it ought to have rF, rC-, and rC+, resulting in just rF (and boosted fire spells). 15:54:22 <|amethyst> why would it have rC+ ? 15:54:31 <|amethyst> the ring doesn't have the rC property 15:54:48 |amethyst: whatever "protection from ice" means. 15:54:53 since when does �protection from ice� show up lke that 15:55:02 <|amethyst> that was my question 15:55:09 im calling tampering with evidence by editing the inscription 15:55:24 Or perhaps a bug in the auto-inscriber? 15:55:36 (rather than one in the artifact itself). 15:56:17 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:20 <|amethyst> I'm not seeing anything in the code that would add a "protection from ice" annotation 15:56:30 protection from ice would be cold then at the least 15:56:34 my theory still stands 15:57:01 |amethyst: Anything interesting in the code for ice caves? 15:57:25 |amethyst: From the reddit thread: " I found this ring in the ice cave. If I understand the ice cave it generates with 2 (?) items offering protection from cold" 15:57:57 Ring of sustenance/hunger doesn't auto-ID (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5508) by minmay 16:00:25 <|amethyst> aha 16:00:41 <|amethyst> reporter says that, indeed, they added that annotation manually 16:00:43 <|amethyst> problem solved 16:01:26 the real problem is that by adding that annotation, he did not get rc+ 16:01:55 <|amethyst> {aSting 16:12:06 -!- vivec has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:12:33 |amethyst: Out of curiosity, does anything in crawl prevent the generation of a randart with Fire, rC? 16:12:42 |amethyst: (or Ice, rF?) 16:13:13 I've found a ring of Fire, rF++ before, but I don't remember if I've ever found one of Fire, rC before. 16:16:38 <|amethyst> hm 16:16:40 <|amethyst> that's odd 16:17:00 <|amethyst> You shouldn't be able to get ARTP_FIRE (rF) on a ring of fire 16:17:28 <|amethyst> (or on a ring of cold or a ring of protection from fire) 16:17:57 <|amethyst> oh 16:18:07 <|amethyst> I guess it can be added by the "Boring" artefact check 16:20:02 i'm not sure that makes sense by the way .. there's rings with basetype X that get rF and rC as well, why would a ring of rF not allow rC to be added? 16:20:34 <|amethyst> a ring of rF does allow rC to be added 16:20:42 <|amethyst> but a ring of fire does not 16:21:02 that makes sense to me 16:21:04 ah i misread you above, sorry 16:21:05 <|amethyst> and a ring of rF does not allow rF to be added again 16:21:30 a ring of fire with rC to cancel the vulnerability would just be confusing 16:22:30 galehar: I think you mean "awesome". ;) 16:22:34 i wouldn't describe a fire enhancer without drawbacks as confusing, yeah 16:22:59 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller: the description would claim to protect you from cold 16:23:19 <|amethyst> even though it would produce no net change to rC 16:23:22 it would also claim to make you more vulnerable at the same time 16:23:24 |amethyst: It would also claim to make you more vulnerable to cold. :) 16:23:46 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:49 |amethyst: A bit of special-casing would produce a more useful description, but as it stands today, it would have a somewhat meaningful description. 16:23:52 the current behaviour is fine, I see no reason to change it 16:24:17 |amethyst: So, a randart ring of fire or ice specifically bans the addition of the opposite resistance, though it can have more of the same resistance? 16:24:28 <|amethyst> it cannot have more of the same resistance either 16:24:41 <|amethyst> except if it makes it all the way through without getting any additional properties 16:24:48 |amethyst: You said that "the 'Boring' artifact check" can add it. 16:24:51 Ah. 16:25:00 <|amethyst> then it gets a property added at random, and that does not do any of those checks 16:25:03 (sorry, was typing while scrolled back and didn't see your second response.) 16:25:34 |amethyst: Does that include the check for the opposite resistance? So, you could get a ring of Fire with rC+ if it didn't have anything else? 16:26:04 <|amethyst> if I'm not missing something 16:26:48 But since that check only happens on a ring with no other properties (other than the base), you can't get a ring of Fire with rC+ and other properties? 16:27:34 <|amethyst> it could have also have a stat bonus (that doesn't count as "non-boring"), and one more property because the boring artefact check adds one or two random properties 16:29:15 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:34 |amethyst: Ah, that makes more sense. 16:29:42 |amethyst: Can the two random properties be two of the same resistance? 16:29:44 <|amethyst> I just tried over 100 times and did not get such an artefact 16:30:24 Also, can "fire" or "ice" get added as a property or only as a base object? 16:30:40 |amethyst: 100 rings, or 100 artifacts? 16:30:50 <|amethyst> 100 randart rings of fire 16:31:00 Huh. 16:31:04 <|amethyst> fire and ice are base only 16:31:14 So you didn't get any with either rF or rC? 16:31:22 <|amethyst> correct 16:31:31 (Is MP+9 a base ring only as well?) 16:31:36 <|amethyst> and you will not get two of the same property, because it checks that the artefact does not already have that property 16:31:50 Huh. So how does a randart ring end up with rF++ or rC++? 16:31:54 <|amethyst> MP+ is a randart property 16:32:01 |amethyst: Oh, awesome. 16:32:26 -!- qqryq has joined ##crawl-dev 16:32:34 pretty sure MP+9 is base only? 16:32:54 <|amethyst> oh, hm 16:32:58 <|amethyst> it's an unrand property 16:33:00 yes 16:33:18 but on randarts it only appears on base MP rings 16:33:54 <|amethyst> aha 16:33:56 afaik there aren't any randart properties that can appear on jewellery but not on armour 16:34:15 <|amethyst> I misread... the "boring" check adds a stat bonus or two, not other properties 16:34:34 <|amethyst> so it seems like it shouldn't be possible to get a ring of fire with additional rF 16:34:53 I've never seen or heard of such a ring, fwiw 16:35:07 |amethyst: I've definitely had a ring of Fire with rF++. 16:35:32 Sorry, I should write that more clearly. 16:35:52 I've had a ring of Fire that totalled rF++ and rC-, meaning it had one extra level of fire resistance. 16:36:06 what did it autoinscribe as? 16:36:12 JoshTriplett: uhm, I fail to see how one could possibly generate 16:36:20 are you sure you didn't just have rF+ mutation or something 16:36:35 elliptic: IIRC, it autoinscribed as {Fire, rF+ other stuff} 16:36:37 JoshTriplett: rings of fire can't get any additional rF+ or rC+ 16:37:23 elliptic: Yes, I'm sure. :) 16:37:46 both positive and negative 16:38:10 JoshTriplett: could you provide a morgue or save? 16:38:28 kilobyte: Not offhand; it's somewhere on CDO. 16:38:44 kilobyte: If some means existed of searching for morgues by items, then sure. ;) 16:38:46 it is possible to create one in wizmode, but randart generation code has a check for those everywhere ARTP_FIRE is mentioned 16:38:54 do you have a username on cdo? 16:38:56 josh 16:39:00 JoshTriplett: do you remember anything about what character it was? 16:39:13 elliptic: Sprint, if that helps. 16:39:21 And it was an FE. 16:39:42 (Or a caster, at least, but I don't tend to play many non-FE casters.) 16:40:30 * JoshTriplett hopes he isn't just misremembering. 16:40:37 But I remember at the time thinking it was an awesome find for an FE. 16:41:09 <|amethyst> were you wearing it when you died? 16:41:31 !lg josh fe cdo s=xl 16:41:39 <|amethyst> sprint 16:41:49 !lg josh sprint cls=fe src=cdo s=xl 16:41:49 sprint, oh. 16:41:53 |amethyst: It seems rather unlikely that I would have done otherwise, but it's possible I could have found something better. 16:42:06 |amethyst: (or temporarily needed.) 16:42:29 |amethyst: Also, in several sprints lately I've played with my rings before winning to do something like "get as much max MP as possible". :) 16:42:37 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:42:40 39 games for josh (fe cdo): 6x 5, 6x 2, 6x 1, 4x 3, 3x 7, 3x 4, 2x 10, 2x 6, 2x 12, 24, 11, 9, 8, 27 16:42:41 151 games for josh (cls=fe src=cdo): 39x 2, 18x 1, 13x 8, 12x 9, 12x 3, 12x 5, 10x 11, 10x 4, 7x 10, 5x 7, 4x 6, 4x 20, 3x 12, 21, 23 16:45:49 <|amethyst> if this was in trunk I'm not seeing it 16:46:04 |amethyst: Either trunk or 0.10. 16:46:10 |amethyst: Definitely not earlier. 16:47:34 * JoshTriplett needs to wander off, but is still curious about the earlier question regarding lua and skill enable/focus/disable. 16:47:50 <|amethyst> just downloaded all your trunk and 0.10 morgues and grepped for 'Fire.*rF'... no matches 16:47:58 <|amethyst> bad memory strikes again :) 16:48:30 |amethyst: One possibility of bad memory: any instances of rings of protection from fire with additional rF levels? 16:48:43 JoshTriplett: getting lua support for skills would definitely be good 16:49:02 <|amethyst> y - the ring of Omoekas {rF++ rN+} 16:49:07 <|amethyst> k - the ring "Struiro" {rF++ Int+1 SInv} 16:49:09 elliptic: Mostly, I'd like to say "when starting as this class, set the skills this way". 16:49:10 we are generally happy to have any expansion of player lua that doesn't leak information 16:49:13 that's probably easy 16:49:24 |amethyst: Sigh, that second one is the one, yeah. 16:49:41 I'm not a lua expert, but I know a thing or 2 about skills ;) 16:49:49 |amethyst: Middling but useful stat bonus, some other random thing, and rF++. 16:50:32 elliptic: By "leak information" you mean "tell the player something otherwise only available to dungeon lua"? 16:51:00 I mean "give the player access to information not available in any other way" 16:51:06 <|amethyst> or things that aren't available to dungeon lua either :) 16:51:11 Fair enough. :) 16:51:27 Though "information not available to dungeon lua" seems like a bug in most cases. ;) 16:52:14 so, besides enabling/disabling/focusing skills, anything else missing from the lua interface? 16:52:15 lua functions that give the same information as on the skill screen would be great; a lua function that tells exact skill point values would be bad 16:52:52