00:02:07 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-732-g9e79ca4 (32) 00:02:54 Wensley: haha, I was wondering wtf you were talking about when you said chocolate 00:03:11 i thought you were being weird and talking about ambrosia or something 00:03:14 hahaha 00:03:18 nope. 00:03:22 food of the gods 00:04:15 that's the first time I've seen rf+++ on an item 00:04:52 evilmike: my goal now is to make it so that every hardcoded amulet is actually an artefact property 00:05:00 milk chocolate will be even more powerful 00:05:39 ??Wensley 00:05:39 wensley[1/16]: Thoroughly approves of Mu's Crypt finales. 00:05:48 yeah, your entry is too long. not adding that line, sorry 00:05:57 how do I have that many entries 00:05:59 brb 00:13:32 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-732-g9e79ca4 00:28:10 Wensley: slaying is suppressed successfully 00:29:19 awesome 00:29:32 thank you for testing 00:32:36 What is suppression supposed to do, totally negate the items you have? 00:33:04 that's the idea. Suppress the effect of magical items. 00:33:13 ??suppression 00:33:14 suppression[1/4]: All permanent effects from worn magic items (resists, *TELE, etc.) are immediately lost when entering the aura. All duration-based *magical* effects from any source decay at an accelerated rate for each turn spent in the aura. 00:34:44 I'd say "well that affects casters more than melee" but melee has a harder time with buffs and such in the first place so a hard encounter in a suppression field is a bad thing 00:35:00 ought to be bad for everyone 00:35:15 yeah 00:47:49 -!- ncdulo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:34 -!- ncdulo_ is now known as ncdulo 00:53:30 -!- magistern has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:58 my prepackaged win build of tiles has a unix-formatted readme.txt 01:11:21 probably not 100% the best for the win packages 01:18:04 Dixbert: open it in wordpad? I believe the readme file is displayed through crawl, thoguh, so windows formatting would probably not work. 01:19:37 -!- Dixbert has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:22:18 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:03 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:59 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:17:06 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:55 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 02:41:33 -!- ketsa has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:54 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 03:48:50 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 03:49:57 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:52:14 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:01:51 -!- blabber has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:03:44 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 04:08:53 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:11:13 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:19 !tell Napkin I've installed the tablewidth plugin on the devwiki, but it doesn't work. Could you help me? 04:28:20 galehar: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 04:28:28 I need to make this page usable: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:translation:english:items 04:28:42 !tell Napkin I need to make this page usable: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:translation:english:items 04:28:43 galehar: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 04:32:46 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:32 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 04:42:11 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:46:16 -!- GreatOrbOfEyes has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-732-g9e79ca4 05:04:50 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 05:06:04 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:34:41 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:08:32 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:42 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:14:47 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:21 kilobyte: I think it's a bit weird to have english names in translated description files. How about each language has a names.txt for name translations and description files use translated names? 07:11:35 galehar: it'd be weird to special-case descriptions but not all other database lookups 07:11:46 doable though 07:12:37 we'd need to get actual item/monster name translations working, though, which is anything but trivial 07:12:48 remember about renamed monsters, XXX zombies, etc 07:13:04 03kilobyte * rf97044e2e9a8 10/crawl-ref/source/database.cc: Don't crash when a help topic is missing. 07:13:08 03kilobyte * r9f2b09ec7005 10/crawl-ref/source/ (arena.cc message.cc message.h): Fix arena message dumps being inoperative. 07:13:18 and zombies are a case of a recursive translation that involves different noun/adjective cases 07:13:50 I see 07:13:51 so better keep using english names has key everywhere then? 07:14:28 not sure, we can change the keys to use translated versions, but only once translated names are actually working 07:15:59 I can think of only argument for english names: key conflicts are known and limited (royal jelly, Lehudib's crystal spear) while in a language it may be different 07:17:26 ok 07:17:35 for example, the translation used for "potion" in Polish games is "eliksir". We got two cards, "Potion" and "Elixir". Due to what they do, I translated "Potion" -> "eliksir" and "Elixir" -> "lek" ("drug/medicine") 07:17:54 but on the other hand, your point is good -- it'd make the live of translators easier 07:19:54 well, we can also have translators not worry about the backend and have them work on the wiki. I've already a draft script to create a dokuwiki table from the description and quote files 07:20:39 It's quite easy to then grab the translations from the wiki to a local source repository, ready for committing 07:21:48 if the internal format changes, going back and forth is a matter of a few lines worth of a script anyway 07:22:08 sure 07:30:45 about linebreaks, in descript, they are ignored, but in database they aren't, right? 08:20:37 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:15 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 08:35:15 03policarpocp * rae4194ad93fd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): New sub-command in map mode, that allows to annotate levels. 08:35:16 03galehar * r73a5110cba62 10/crawl-ref/source/viewmap.cc: Remove some uneeded brackets and simplify. 08:35:16 03galehar * rf1ac58e51dbe 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h skills.cc wiz-you.cc): Initialize skills before loading a dump file. 08:39:05 galehar: the database has either whole preformatted screens (help) or monster speech, where separate lines are separate messages 08:40:01 quotes are preformatted too, aren't they? 08:40:45 quotes are wrapped, same as descs 08:41:04 almost all are indented, though 08:41:32 isn't the last line special cased? 08:41:33 also, there's an old bug: ones that are _not_ unwrapped get indents wrong 08:41:36 the signature 08:43:38 or is that all lines which start with a whitespace? 08:43:52 the latter 08:58:55 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:58 -!- magistern has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:13 03kilobyte * rd9804648b6ec 10/crawl-ref/source/ (16 files): Make some more functions static/gone. 09:16:23 03kilobyte * r9354ee4dafcb 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix arena message dumps sometimes not showing up. 09:33:11 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:22:23 -!- hej has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:25 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:54 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:28:21 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:52 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:36:16 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:42 -!- hej is now known as magistern 10:56:24 so I know yesterday I talked a bit about unifying all checks for mutation resistance, although this would cause some numbers to change because currently it is wildly inconsistent in which sources of rmut are considered for different things 10:56:33 should I go ahead with that or leave off for now? 10:57:24 I can't think of a single redundant check there 10:58:06 I didn't say redundant, just inconsistent 10:58:11 Zin's supposed to be better than the amulet with enough piety (and worse with low) 10:58:49 see ouch.cc:320, output.cc:1729, mutation.cc:1221, effects.cc:2402 10:58:52 also, there are different ways to remove mutations, it makes sense for some to obey the amulet, but not for some 10:59:44 bolt of Zin is supposed to be consistent with other malmutators, not with potions of cure mut 10:59:51 I've already replaced all checks for the amulet with checks for my new player_res_mutation() function 11:00:01 just wondering if there's anything else we want to fold into that function as well 11:00:23 (the point of the function is to have a single unified place to check for suppression) 11:00:51 uhm, that's wrong... the amulet is not supposed to work the same as resistance against _mutating_ only 11:01:05 kilobyte: right now the code is functionally identical 11:01:46 well except for the checks for suppression, but that's the point 11:02:08 before I had them sprinkled all through the code and evilmike told me he wanted all of those checks unified somewhere 11:02:19 resist mutation is really the only one that's an issue 11:02:30 you cannot unify them -- like, halflings are not supposed to be magically vulnerable just because there's some silly moth around 11:02:58 kilobyte: that's the point, the player_res_mutation function determines if suppression applies and also which effects would apply if the player was suppressed 11:03:02 (assuming it's a moth of inhibiting magic, not of making magical mutations stronger) 11:03:26 in this case, mutations that confer rmut would not be suppressed, but items would be 11:03:51 I would skip that player_res_mutation() thingy, as it suggests there is some unification 11:04:18 just like recent attempts to shoehorn gourmand and carni 3 into one 11:04:27 I will rename it instead, because I want to make rmut a normal artefact property anyway (even if it's not available to spawn on randarts) 11:04:40 will call it res_mut_from_item or something 11:06:06 and I haven't heard of any gourmand/carnivore unification suggestions, but rmut really *is* sort of a crapshoot at the moment and it seems needlessly complicated 11:07:05 mostly because there are two different effects: mutation and mutation removal 11:07:09 but I understand that we don't want to affect balance 11:07:12 and the first can result in the latter 11:14:50 -!- ogsus has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:15:07 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:27:35 -!- magistern has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:25 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:52 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:25 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:03 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:56 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:55:35 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:59:45 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:08:40 -!- vadatajs has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:52 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: medgno] 12:17:59 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:48 -!- FaMott has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20:33 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:51 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:47:59 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:18 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:45 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:48 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:18 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:28 -!- Mottikins__ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:48:59 -!- FaMott has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:50:19 Added three new entry vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5489) by kofrad 13:53:33 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:11 where do i go with a potential race idea. or is that sort of thing not wanted? 13:54:34 heteroy: wiki 13:57:28 "Two-header player species. In particular, no to two-headed playable ogres, double no to wearing two amulets at once and triple no to simultaneous religions." I'd like to pretend this one is because of me 8) 13:58:03 I think the process is to code it two years ago and have it sitting in a test server for all that time 13:58:31 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:59:05 my idea is for a race that can use any armour in any of it's armour slots. probably no body armour at all. 13:59:18 other various aspects bu that's the main rub 14:00:36 not sure i need to come up with something to stop multiple boots of running or if that would br okay. 14:08:59 -!- Mottikins__ is now known as FaMott 14:09:51 -!- Ripplez has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:33 hi. id like to suggest a feature. a counter that counts the number of times your enchant scrolls fail on a weapon, that way after X failures, it will allow the next one to pass through before resetting 14:11:09 the enchant scrolls can be hard to come by at times and it can be truly be frustrating to see what few you have fail on the same weapon without any hope of the situation improving 14:12:05 there is no real way to improve it you are at the mercy of rng both for the scrolls working and the scrolls being found at all, thats why id like to suggest a maximum amount of failure before a chance for 1 scroll to work. after that it can go back to being hateful. it could even and prob should scale with enchantment level 14:12:09 thank you for listening 14:13:28 could give a fractional result on ench scrolls 14:13:50 might be a lot less frustrating for players because it will even out the bad rolls 14:14:04 i.e. even if you don't get a +1 you still got a +0.1 14:14:15 which won't have any effect except to aggregate until you do have a +1 14:14:24 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15:17 thank you. just something to make it not be a complete waste and hte luck of the draw each time you try, no matter what the system actually is 14:15:21 thank you for listening 14:15:25 -!- Ripplez has left ##crawl-dev 14:15:58 yeah, a fractional result would probably be better 14:20:55 oh i was thinking that weapons that tended towards speediness and agility over strength should maybe get the evasion brand instead of the protection brand. probably all short blades and staves, maybe some other things 14:21:41 whips, spears 14:22:42 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:19 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: medgno] 14:30:57 changing armor/accessories should highlight changes (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5490) by simon1tan 14:35:31 heteroy, the problem with that is that not all characters who have 'speedy' weapons neccesarily need evasion , so it shouldn't be set in stone, it should be weighted though 14:36:09 understandably so, but just thematicly speedy weapons seem like they should possibly confer evasion 14:38:11 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:44:42 Like I said, it should weight it towards evasion, like, if the brand rolled is protection, it should on a 2/3 chance roll evasion 14:50:58 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51:01 -!- medgno has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:25 -!- Keatert has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:51 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:32:43 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:25 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:01 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:51 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:56 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:11 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:09 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:28:23 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:05 When identifying with a scroll, long item names that spill over to the next line can be written over with other text (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5491) by Geodew 16:54:12 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:19 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:02:08 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:39 -!- Dixbert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:54 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:35 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:58 Famott, heteroy: the only reason for speedy weapons to have a tie to evasion is that it's how it works for humans (and thus can be expected for almost humans) 17:27:15 ? 17:27:28 oh 17:28:31 case 1: a slow blob with long agile tentacles 17:30:11 ...octopodes? 17:30:28 case 2: a "floating disk" race: moves really fast with good manuevability but needs to lunge towards the opponent to hit -- ie, with a big mindelay floor 17:30:42 octopodes are more humanoid than that 17:31:26 said disk wields weapons? 17:31:32 jpeg broadcasted an email about the survey to all the devteam. If anybody got missed, yell. 17:31:42 these two examples are quite bizarre but illustrate the extremes... even a "gasbag" demon could work 17:31:48 any chance of ev brand on melee/ protection on ranged ever? 17:32:13 yesssssss, gasbag demon, the air representation in monsters is really low 17:33:16 although a monster with static discharge should happen first, I guess 17:33:37 xom should occasionally give you the ability to dig through walls a la boring beetles (You are a boring thing!) 17:34:52 there are so many things that would be good for xom and yet all people get/remember when they worship him is demons, rod gifts, banishment, and weapon animation 17:34:58 where is the xom overhaul 17:37:01 xom reform 17:37:26 xom gifts si 17:39:43 galehar: I didn't get that email 17:40:51 there you go 17:40:51 boo, can't read it on crawl-ref-discuss 17:41:05 It's only preliminary results 17:41:12 final ones will be public 17:42:13 fair enough 17:42:34 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:46 Bonsoir 17:42:49 oh hey dpeg! 17:43:01 how you doing? 17:43:03 jpeg's survey analysis made me come here. 17:43:22 Oh, I am fine. Still a non-winner at Brogue, though. It's a bummer, that game is eating my soul. 17:43:23 well, that's what I thought when I saw you join :) 17:43:28 <3 your sister 17:43:32 before I had them sprinkled all through the code and evilmike told me he wanted all of those checks unified somewhere 17:43:39 dpeg: er, you have one? 17:43:41 Hey, I also did something with the questions :) 17:43:42 Wensley: not saying I disagree but I think you're confusing me for someone else 17:43:55 kilobyte: seems like it! But it'll be Pender's before long. 17:44:55 I noted two bits I wanted to share: 1) You're actually going to do multi-language support. That's awesome but there's a catch that it might stall core development. I trust you avoid that, of course. 17:46:51 2) jpeg mentions early game variety. We already learned that from the last survey, and I am happy that portal vaults have helped a bit to easy the monotony. Here's a longer-term offer: if you'll declare that the gold god goes in at any time (can by 0.15 or whatever, I don't care), I'll finish the random gods design, and in several chunks (first minimal batch for testing etc.). I believe this can make the early game more interesting for a large part of the p 17:47:35 dpeg: Random gods? 17:47:43 randgod 17:48:16 Cannot paste links in here. Basically, randomly generated gods. I am absolutely convinced that it can work and that it will rock, too. I'll only advertise the idea if you ask, though. 17:48:38 That sounds really cool. 17:48:42 Deal 17:48:45 random gods sounds like fun but also a lot of work when there are so many other things that could be done 17:49:02 I've been thinking about how gods are such an easy choice most of the time. 17:49:06 Since all are guaranteed. 17:49:10 Eronarn: but dpeg likes to work on gods! 17:49:12 galehar: awesome, you'll get my stuff! 17:49:18 * dpeg is only in it for the gods. 17:49:22 galehar: hey, so do i :P 17:49:25 jiyva is quite the effort to get, same with lugonu 17:49:36 HangedMan: Well ok, special cases. 17:50:31 dpeg: you mentionned stall development. I do think it's a good time to focus on balance, interface and translations. And we're doing spider too! Can't add a god at the same time. 17:50:35 beogh might not appear at all, if you have bad luck or difficulty with certain altar vaults they may be cut off for a while (general_overflowwwww) 17:50:35 But still, it almost feels like I could just be allowed to choose a god at the start and we slow down piety in the start 17:51:03 oh, that reminds me to mail my list 17:51:05 but the gold god can be added to 0.12 agenda 17:51:28 early luck or late luck makes that rather variable; getting wandering mushrooms after a floor means completely different things on d:3 and d:9 17:52:02 galehar: fair enough! I agree that adding a branch is a much bigger affair than adding a god or a species. I read all the Spider balancing commits and it feels good. 17:52:07 or heroism or healing for kills or channeling, depending across builds: earlygame balance blah blah blah 17:52:38 well, we're not starting from nothing. The branch already add some content, we had webs, clinging 17:52:45 Ok, my point was that I usually plan my god choice before I even start the game, and then I might get lucky with the placement. 17:52:53 layout_delve 17:52:53 and now evilmike is putting it all together :) 17:52:53 galehar: true, a bit similar to how Shoals arose 17:53:05 I'm still experimenting with spider 17:53:06 *arose* 17:53:10 I dunno i fI want this to change but it's someting I noted. 17:53:13 how appropriate for shoals :) 17:53:18 galehar: :) 17:53:51 dpeg, evilmike: the hellspider question is still unanswered. 17:54:03 So far I've heard a lot of people say it's too easy and a few say it's balanced, but none that it's too hard. So I pushed it a little more in the "hard" direction yesterday. Could be annoying though (tarantella spam or something) 17:54:06 and yeah the hellspider is a huge missing part still 17:54:13 I really hate Eronarn's version, so I'd say there are two options: 17:54:13 ghallberg: I think most players do that. Still, I am sure that encountering a D:2 altar to "Fre Lukor" does break the monotony, especially if you're a long-time player but also non-winner. 17:54:34 kilobyte: go ahead, I can chime in for a while 17:54:43 1. blocking hellspider, 2. no hellspider at all (or at most it as a regular critter with not much special) 17:54:48 dpeg: A random god that is? 17:54:52 ghallberg: yes 17:55:05 kilobyte: blocking hell-spider == have to kill in order to go deeper? 17:55:17 looks like there's enough content for 2. to be viable 17:55:19 dpeg: I agree! I really like the idea because it changes the mechanic in a cool way :) 17:55:41 we could do 2 and just bring the hellspider in as an abyss monster some day, or something 17:55:43 dpeg: yeah, the ideas for letting you through I've heard so far seem pretty bad 17:55:49 btw, completely new vaults and portal vaults can also liven up the early game (say pre-Lair) 17:56:13 i'd rather work on improving late D 17:56:14 I need to start making lairs 17:56:17 there're plans for a demon pit portal for pre-lair, but it's waiting on portal branches to be finished 17:56:17 After I'm more comfortable with spider I am going to focus my efforts on a new portal vault (it's the same one I've talked about) 17:56:31 kilobyte: I never had qualms about 1. but I recall some devs being uneasy about must-kills, galehar for example. 17:56:31 I won't be able to *finish* spider if the hellspider is part of it, that's still a bit beyond my abilities 17:56:45 ChrisOelmueller: sure, but I just saw jpeg's numbers. 17:56:58 evilmike: what depth? 17:56:59 am pointing ridiculous numbers of my vaults at late D due to more excuses to be evil 17:57:09 dpeg: D:1-4 are extremely boring. The same two layouts, the same monster set, hardly any defining vaults 17:57:10 heh okay i did not, but i feel the early game has a fair amount of cool content right now 17:57:12 dpeg: my idea is pre-lair 17:57:15 (russian teleroulettttttte) 17:57:19 evilmike: <3 17:57:40 dpeg: st_ also suggests making it a bit bigger and adding "hard" versions for post-lair. I think this is alright, although I'd make the portal have a higher probability earlier 17:57:49 kilobyte: early uniques also help a bit, though 17:57:50 evilmike: of course, but with the design -- that's the hard part, not coding 17:58:02 evilmike: like there are two versions of Ice? 17:58:11 d:1-4 has lots of vaults, it's just that dummy balancer and the assumption that when players are that weak early stuff is still interesting 17:58:18 dpeg: yeah. although the easy demon portal would be easier than the easy ice portal 17:58:21 if that makes sense 17:58:31 the easy one would be like... sewer level 17:58:33 easy ice portal, two ice dragons 17:58:38 evilmike: that's great, so you can move it up (earlier depth). 17:58:59 isch quasits and imps :( 17:59:08 well yeah, if there is a hellspider, I'd like it better if you could skip it. I've put some suggested changes to the design on the wiki, but nobody answered (not the whole alternate design) 17:59:26 galehar: but note the precent TRJ 17:59:28 also, somehow some vaults seem to be really overabundant while some never show up 17:59:32 *precedent 17:59:33 (d:7 portal vault, orc warlord; d:3 ampihibious jelly in shallow water, etc etc etc) 18:00:14 the TRJ is one fight. HS is 5. 18:00:28 also rapidshatterstruction, worshipping jiyva 18:00:41 galehar: you could consider it as a chained battle 18:01:42 sure. But I don't see the point in restricting the player's options. Escape can be challenging if the hellspider is fast, blinks close, block ctele,... 18:01:46 I've been focusing all my thought on the regular set of monsters. I only have one big opinion about the hellspider, which is that I think it should be skippable (but with a price). Use stair -> it spawns on the next level with certain upgrades 18:01:59 skipping can be punishing if it makes it faster 18:02:08 I see hex_medium/hex_large every a couple games, haven't seen firewood_loft in like a year 18:02:17 this goes way against the "blocking" idea but I just like it more. It just comes down to personal opinion 18:02:20 The underlying question is what the game should be at its heart. For example, Pender wants to move Brogue away from kill towards explore. I always thought that Crawl is a tactical game where killing, and how to kill, is the major ingredient. Yes, you can avoid killings, and sometimes that's good... Does not answer whether must-kills are appropriate or not. 18:02:54 I think escape and choosing fights is also a big part of crawl 18:03:00 me too 18:03:04 Eronarn: the idea you just mentioned, the hellspider being a part of the Abyss rather than Spider, sounds actually good 18:03:15 galehar: yes, but with the HS, you're picking the fights on your terms anyway 18:03:25 I think the single most important skill in crawl is retreating/skipping things (knowing how to, and knowing when to) 18:03:58 dpeg: and if your terms are being fast, sneaky and treacherous, why can't you choose them? 18:04:03 kilobyte: perhaps it's a unique only generated in abyss, and if you escape without killing it, it can come back the next time you're in the abyss? 18:04:04 the idea of an abyss-specific unique sounds cool 18:04:05 evilmike: I expect everyone to have an answer to this... it's a subjective matter and the active devs have to make the decision. :) 18:04:15 Eronarn: no penalizing escapes removes pretty much any problem I have with your earlier remarks, there's but one: how to reward the player for finishing all fights? 18:04:36 If the hellspider is still going to evolve as you kill it, escaping could make it evolve anti-escape abilities? 18:04:44 kilobyte: it could leave an item every time (say a consumable) 18:04:48 ghallberg: that's the proposal kilobyte hated :P 18:04:54 oh 18:04:57 dpeg: ambrosia! 18:05:03 once we fix it, anyways 18:05:04 yes, hellish ambrosia 18:05:11 I'm pretty tired tonight, sorry if I make no sense :) 18:05:18 hellbrosia 18:05:23 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:43 instead of confusing, gives you sticky hellfire 18:05:47 fr: hell bros, humans living in hell, try to kill you with broken bottles 18:06:01 wwf (L13 DDBe) ASSERT(_valid()) in 'ray.cc' at line 194 failed. (D (Sprint)) 18:06:36 another question about the hellspider. Who is going to code it? I can't really fit it on my todo. kilobyte, would you be able to handle it and translations at the same time? 18:06:51 and finishing off portal branches 18:06:55 also, somehow some vaults seem to be really overabundant while some never show up 18:07:00 We can introduce it as an Abyss unique. This is much less coding. 18:07:03 I notice this too. Some vaults just don't like to place 18:07:05 http://pastebin.com/ShE1Sudn 18:07:13 there's one in zot which practically *never* generates 18:07:13 this is the list of things that i would like to see in crawl 18:07:18 it's the big castle-ish one by minmay 18:07:26 then, we can consider putting it in spider in another version. When the branch is mature. 18:07:26 galehar: I have damage counting but not upgrades mostly coded; haven't visited it since november though 18:07:40 <|amethyst> set them as "transparent" and see if that helps 18:07:41 Eronarn: It's the compiled bad_ideas list right? 18:07:51 ghallberg: :P 18:07:55 <|amethyst> I think many vaults could stand to be transparent that aren't 18:07:58 <|amethyst> maybe even most 18:08:26 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:31 eronarn, I am pretty sure ambrosia already does the mp regen thing 18:08:31 the upgrade on kill could work well in the abyss too. Spice up the rune hunt. 18:09:07 |amethyst: transparent didn't exist when we started with vaults ... every new feature begs for someone to go over all vaults and improve them. Which never happens on a systemtic basis, of course. 18:09:08 HangedMan: last i heard, it's a potion of magic that confuses you when you eat it 18:09:35 Eronarn: for that list, could you put it on the wiki or something? Even just on your user page 18:09:40 Eronarn: stuff on pastebin gets lost so easily 18:09:49 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:52 yes, it is already made into mp regen 18:10:04 evilmike: well, i just emailed it to galehar, he said he was compiling a todo for next version 18:10:09 ah cool 18:10:30 HangedMan: well that's good then! 18:10:49 |amethyst: any vault with a border of passable terrain is ok making transparent, right? 18:11:02 some of those things are going to be pretty large so i don't expect them all to be possible at once 18:11:11 but if people like any of them i'd be willing to put some time in 18:11:35 I really need to get my Brogue win, so I can start writing that Brogue review (geared towards Crawl devs), so that you can use good ideas from elsewhere. 18:12:52 Eronarn: "Let orc priests heal other orcs, rather than themselves." I like that 18:13:00 it is what Brogue does :) 18:13:46 There was this idea of a deep dwarf healer (monster), for the branch- 18:14:13 most DDs follow a god, it's strange Elyvilon is missing 18:14:28 it's even better for hostile orcs :) 18:14:33 (or are necromancers, like players) 18:14:58 <|amethyst> evilmike: unless that passable terrain puts you in view of something dangerous anyway 18:15:01 galehar: I thought the main application would be orc priest enemies. 18:15:05 could give orc priests heal other, although they'd use it on non-orcs too 18:15:10 orcs do Beogh, but obviously healing doesn't need to be reserved for Ely only 18:15:11 and it might be an issue with beogh followers 18:15:30 the heal other message already includes the god (ie Beogh) too 18:15:32 give them heal other orc 18:15:32 we can make a SPELL_HEAL_ORC 18:15:36 dpeg: he mentioned it while talking about Beogh, but I agree. Hostile orc priest is the main application :) 18:15:52 kilobyte: yes 18:16:02 hey, it's a turn they won't use smiting you :p 18:16:19 unless you replace their minor healing slot 18:16:21 Smite... 18:16:28 or maybe it works only in orc bands 18:16:36 they heal other band members 18:16:38 ghallberg: smite is good, don't even try! 18:17:11 isn't there already some sort of check for allied/banded monsters? 18:17:29 dpeg: Yeah, I actually learned how not to die to those priests at last. 18:17:35 But I still have bad memories :) 18:17:54 I think bands are a good way to create interesting tactical situations. We need to keep improving them. 18:18:18 yes 18:18:30 like making them not be placed in walls or around walls? 18:18:41 so much more could be done with monsters... I recall Erik Piper telling me about Shiren monsters for hours before he left 18:18:44 s|around|seperated by| 18:18:52 also, cannot learn so much about good monsters from Brogue :) 18:18:52 shiren the wanderer <3 18:19:12 tanks using fireball missiles, killing enemies, levelling up from it 18:19:26 berserker enemies that would kill other monsters just to level up from it 18:19:28 HangedMan: yes, that bug needs fixing 18:19:31 rock worm-executioners 18:20:41 HangedMan: the very gist of his was that most roguelikes are way too timid with monsters, Crawl included (I would bet that many 7drl's go places but I don't play them). This is why we should always support weirder monsters, imo. (For example, slime creatures is still quite timid in that regard.) 18:20:58 quite 18:21:30 As long as they get reasonable names and themes, the mechanics cna be crazy as yiuf. 18:21:57 boulder beetles 18:21:59 ghallberg: yes. 18:22:22 <|amethyst> HangedMan: I think MarvinPA is reviewing that now 18:22:33 wonderous 18:22:36 It is also good to have more monsters who combine into interesting threats with other monsters. Our moths and eyes do this, for example. 18:22:40 I should look through some monster manuals or something for inspiration (yes D&D, deal with it) 18:22:56 HangedMan: They push around boulders to crush you? 18:22:59 reflection vapours, monsters that level up other monsters when they die 18:23:06 The orb spider will be lovely, I bet. 18:23:09 monsters that compliment each other is what I've been trying to do with spider 18:23:09 Multi-tile monsters should be nice 18:23:09 <|amethyst> ghallberg: they roll at you like an IOOD 18:23:14 ah 18:23:20 evilmike: I noted! 18:23:24 alone, most of the monsters in spider are quite weak (some hit hard, but they all die easily) 18:23:30 I'm gonna make a monster that tries to crush you with a wall. 18:23:48 And maybe one that spawns walls. 18:23:55 Wand of undigging... 18:23:57 <|amethyst> lightcycle 18:24:01 labrynth worm for abyss 18:24:46 the idea was to replace orc priest heal self with heal orc, yes 18:24:50 not just plain heal other 18:25:08 Eronarn: actually, it could do both. The priest is an orc too... 18:25:18 Eronarn: yes, that'll work well for both orc bands and Beogh. 18:25:31 <|amethyst> is that "heal an orc" or "heal all orcs"? 18:25:35 abusable for friendly orcs, though 18:25:39 i wonder if maybe it should only be heal WEAKER orcs 18:25:48 the strong orcs can keep the weak ones alive, but not vice versa 18:26:01 or orcs <= self 18:26:10 this feels very beoghy 18:26:20 you can't accept healing from your followers! they are beneath you 18:26:33 Are there any filled O glyphs? 18:26:40 I want a boulder. 18:26:43 Eronarn: it'd feel Beoghy with >= self 18:26:45 Or a dung ball. 18:26:54 kilobyte: >=? not sure what you mean 18:26:55 Oh wait, non-stupid themes. 18:28:19 Eronarn: Beogh is quote Nazi-like: "being strong is good", "all the power to our race, skip weaklings" 18:28:46 s/quote/quite/ 18:28:56 kilobyte: where does the self come in there, though? 18:29:08 kilobyte: can easily find an excuse why plain orcs cannot heal the wannabe messiah. 18:29:50 Eronarn: it's primarily about making _yourself_ strong first 18:30:15 kilobyte: strong, sure, but people who are strong don't need healing ;) 18:30:46 strong != invulnerable 18:31:28 kilobyte: but we surely don't want the HO player to run in circles until the priests in his entourage decide to heal him, though. 18:35:45 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:36:19 dpeg: yeah, which is the primary issue 18:39:58 seems fine to me to make it a "heal monster orc" spell. The gameplay reason for that is very clear, so for flavour just find some easy excuse 18:40:42 focusing on weaker orcs could also be interesting... your high priests would be better healers than your normal priests 18:42:14 evilmike: really good point 18:42:23 could make it so that vanilla priests will heal up to orc warriors, but not higher 18:42:30 Yeah that's exactly my thought 18:42:45 vanilla: heals orcs, priests, wizards, warriors. high priest: heals all the others 18:43:07 and if we give the player an ability presumably they can heal any orc that follows them (but not themselves) 18:43:35 I'd kill for a "cure poison" ability to use on orc followers :P 18:43:42 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:01 can't beogh cure poison on your orcs? 18:44:06 I find the number one danger for my HOPr bands is poison clouds (includes miasma) 18:44:20 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:21 <|amethyst> make the healing cure status 18:44:26 though they have to kill stuff to get it, of course 18:45:02 a beogh healing invocation could be a "touch" ability. "lay on hands" or something, maybe that's a bit too D&D though 18:45:02 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:22 it would feel different from ely's healing invocations that way 18:45:50 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:19 evilmike: touch range would be good if we buffed priests/high priests to be actually tough in melee 18:46:31 beogh priests, if we go by the player, are armor-wearing badasses with huge axes 18:47:07 and this makes orc knights distinct by... 18:47:14 Eronarn: heh, I was only thinking of the player fo rthat. For monster priests, I dont mind if they get a ranged healing spell 18:47:38 But I think I care less than you do about symmetry between players and monsters, here 18:48:23 i guess try it as a ranged thing on monsters and see about early orc priest balance 18:48:27 since that's where it would matter for the most part 18:48:30 evilmike: +1 for touch heal with a piety cost 18:49:02 bedtime for me 18:49:11 dpeg: it's been good to see you! 18:49:14 'later 18:49:17 * galehar sleeps 18:49:28 galehar: bye! 18:52:47 hhi deepleg 18:53:33 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 18:53:37 <|amethyst> should clawed unarmed attacks get ok_weaps stabbing bonuses? 18:53:48 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:53:49 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 18:54:25 not supposed to 18:54:59 it was added solely for clubs, later extended to spears 18:55:14 <|amethyst> they don't currently; I was wondering if it made sense to change that for e.g. felids 18:55:42 as a racial perk, could make sense 18:56:01 <|amethyst> I guess trolls don't need any more UC bonuses 18:56:28 we could make unarmed stabbing work via a choking hold or some such, but that's not connected to claws in any way 18:57:18 <|amethyst> for cats, it's a lot easier to bite through something's spine if it can't see you 18:57:23 <|amethyst> I would imagine 18:57:26 (really though, the whole non-clawed unarmed combat being better than many weapons makes no sense) 18:57:32 due: hi! Almost off though, 2 am here 18:58:19 Ah.<-- working 18:58:22 galehar just left, hrm, I wanted to talk about those doubled claw bonuses 18:58:29 which make trolls insane 18:59:15 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:59:15 as opposed to merely crazy? 19:00:42 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01:15 UCC handles claw damage differently, acd50737 adds additional huge bonuses, claiming "fixing" something 19:05:52 <|amethyst> kilobyte: unless I'm missing something, higher levels of claws mutation were affecting only accuracy, not damage; pre-UCC they affected damage too 19:07:55 kilobyte: so before I leave: still no progress on HS. 19:10:47 Since this is so subjective, there'll be no purely technical consent. (For example, because everything can be ninja'ed, I like the idea of a must-have fight all the better. Of course, my opinion matters not so much) 19:10:50 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: medgno] 19:10:51 but still 19:11:08 not *everything* can be ninja'd 19:11:32 statue on top of a rune, surrounded to los of it with lava! 19:14:34 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:22 HangedMan: no current rune vault does that currently 19:15:34 kilobyte: someone's gotta settle this, as the question is crucial to Spider: should it be a normal branch (then it'd need higher-level spider monsters, I guess) or should it be about the boss fight(s) with assorted spider bestiary? 19:15:37 coc_mu comes close 19:16:30 I for one don't like everything be doable with a single technique, and the hellspider's core design is all about preventing this 19:16:30 it is something I am considering for part of a sprint map 19:17:42 so having both the hellspider and ninjability is a contradiction, nothing good can come from trying to compromise 19:17:44 kilobyte: yes, same here, but as you saw, there's disagreement (at least) from evilmike, galehar 19:17:49 I had a geh map prototype that had the rune in the middle of a lake of lava with asmo on top and fiends around, it was sort of ridiculous and I decided against it 19:18:06 dpeg: yeah, but there are those two options and we need to choose 19:18:32 kilobyte: hm, I'd say either dev vote or actual coder decices? 19:18:36 dpeg: elliptic, galehar you meant 19:18:39 I'd like the coder to deside, personally 19:18:49 kilobyte, evilmike: sorry 19:18:57 "actual coder" being... whom? 19:19:14 whoever codes it :) 19:19:46 would preempt the whole rest of devteam, which is beyond merely rude 19:19:57 one could try to go for a hellspider portal vault, to see how the boss fight turns out... but I think it is a bit late for that approach 19:20:26 can't really make repeated fights in a portal vault 19:20:36 to be honest, I don't think the portal vault helped much with the spider branch. The spider monsters wounded up being complete pushovers for the actual branch 19:20:46 the basic ideas were there, but there needed to be big changes 19:21:02 evilmike: but it did lead to spider clinging, for example 19:21:11 ok, I'm understating how much it helped. Clinging is important, yeah 19:21:14 which, while not crucial at all, is still a nice treat 19:21:47 "important"? I don't ever see it outside of cockroaches in a sewer 19:22:03 it could be used more but it plays no role currently 19:22:10 It's mainly used in vaults in spider 19:22:33 trapstep, rune vault, scorpion pit 19:22:37 btw, random idea: Brogue's spider can shoot a sticky web and players can (slowly) traverse it. One Crawl spider could shoot something as well, and then all spiders (including spider form) can cling to it. 19:24:35 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:16 could the ninjability faction live with ninjaing only possible in spider form? 19:25:24 shooting a web reeks of dumbest American comics, about guys in shiny pyjamas made from tight artifical textiles 19:25:53 I added it for Arachne as it can be explained by a magic spell 19:25:54 kilobyte: I have no idea what you mean, never been exposed to garbage :) I only talk about mechanics. 19:25:55 hey, that's only stupid when it involves clones or deals with the devil 19:26:08 for actual spiders, not so much 19:26:26 There are certainly spiders who throw webs. 19:27:17 dpeg: Spider Form is a level 3 spell, everyone but Troggited/Zinnites would cast it five times 19:27:20 Jumping spiders pounce on you with webs, although this is based on an actual spider 19:27:30 they don't shoot anything (although they do blink towards you) 19:27:55 kilobyte: I don't mean that you get the rune with Spider form, just that the form could be a prerequisite to ninjaing. 19:28:19 yeah, no RL spider can shoot actual web 19:28:40 kilobyte: actually, someone (may have been mumra) recently pointed out to me that there is a real life spider that spits a sticky venomous goo 19:28:49 it's not a web, but it's made of the same stuff 19:28:51 goo, yeah 19:29:22 not a fine structure strewn in an opening, with supporting strands and such 19:29:32 I'm not sure what a monster with that would be though. A very short lived slowing effect, possibly 19:29:35 anyway, was just offering a way to make clinging more relevant by creating spider-only walls via spiders 19:30:13 evilmike: or even actual trapped effect 19:30:13 lava spider end, to go with lava swamp and lava snake 19:30:28 Poison Resistance + Spider Form (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5492) by m355ymarv1n 19:30:38 and possibly lava shoals if I make this shoals volcano not a volcano layout 19:31:07 HangedMan: Rich Burlew made an appropriate reference to that wrt acid sharks he wrote in a rulebook himself :p 19:32:07 preposterous, lava will work with everything 19:32:22 if it could be made to check other resistances it'd even fit in slime 19:34:39 HangedMan: you mean, a spider that spits globs of sticky flame? 19:35:00 I meant for clinging 19:35:33 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: bye] 19:35:44 fire monsters besides fire giants and demons that aren't worse in melee over ranged would be nice 19:36:02 (making volcanos not have pulsating lumps and redbacks would be nice) 19:37:54 aye 19:38:13 evilmike: yes, I keep confusing you with |amethyst, sorry 19:47:53 it seems that if Xom tries to animate your weapon against you and you are surrounded with walls, the weapon is lost forever. 19:49:02 I don't like how that effect boils down to "xom followers should carry two weapons" 19:49:17 I mean, there are a lot of weird things you should prepare for with xom, but that one sticks out 19:49:20 especially if i permanently lost my main one 19:49:55 Xom is currently worse than GOD_NO_GOD so it's challenge games anyway 19:51:11 a hostile dancing weapon itself isn't a bad thing, it's just that you're encouraged to do stupid stuff to get around it. What if xom instead did something like cast tukima's ball occasionally? 19:51:36 i wonder what the odds of finding 2 manuals in the same room on d:11. it didn't look like i was in a vault. 19:51:52 yeah that would be terrifying 19:52:30 my main strategy for xom is learn blink asap and id scrolls so you can figure out teleport. 19:52:39 bacause the demons are coming after you 19:52:42 heh, yeah 19:53:10 of course right now i'm abusing the game for gifts 19:53:18 fr: xom occasionally summons holies like uhhhh 19:53:25 i think the only xom effect that can screw me is abyss 19:53:32 holy swines? 19:53:50 he does cleansing flame around you occasionally 19:53:58 he saves you from him-induced statrot but not if it's from a miscast instead 19:57:41 idea: perhaps Xom-animated weapons should magically return to your inventory? 19:57:51 especially in the Abyss 19:58:12 also, weapon swap with a salamander 19:58:42 that would help. still would want to carry a backup, but it resolves the "haha you just lost your weapon forever" thing 19:59:03 -!- heteroy has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 3.6.27/20120216013254]] 20:03:32 maybe xom should just take your weapon sometims 20:03:35 a god ungift 20:03:38 and then give it back later 20:04:02 but once again good ideas for xom are a bottomless pit 20:07:32 should the top of that bottomless pit be "stop making xom drain xl and stats so much" 20:10:03 the top of that bottomless pit is acknowledging that making xom better is not actually necessary to make crawl better nor is it even the lowest-hanging fruit at the moment 20:11:00 preposterous, going in every direction at once is always good development philsophy 20:14:23 Xom is such a bad joke currently it'd be better to disable him until he actually works 20:22:21 -!- Twinge has quit [] 20:23:06 -!- Dixbert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:24 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 20:24:36 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:43 -!- magistern has joined ##crawl-dev 20:26:03 gameplay with xom is bad but I think he should stay enabled. The idea of a crazy "random" god seems to be popular with newbies 20:27:58 it's just anecdotal evidence. But I get the impression that people who *know* they can't win (or don't want to) enjoy xom 20:30:32 > implying xom is not awesome 20:31:36 well, I don't like xom much. But when you've won the game dozens of times you just tend to see things differently 20:32:11 minmay's assertion that peak of difficulty is right before lair 20:32:25 he says a lot of things 20:33:20 the weird assertion held by fresh players that any early luck means a karmic death 20:33:36 this isn't entirely untrue 20:33:44 luck leads to hubris, which leads to death 20:34:04 death is supposed to teach transcience! 20:46:19 -!- magistern has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:04:01 the lowest hanging fruit: elms 21:04:40 xom just randomly making enemies explode into blood/confetti/fruit at high tension would really help 21:04:52 it would be a direct way to make xom better until we figure out a more comprehensive balancing plan 21:06:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:08:29 wouldn't help even a bit 21:09:01 the chances of such an effect triggering during an actual fight is near-zero 21:09:21 kilobyte: i mean as its own deal, not as a xom effect 21:09:45 something relatively common that helps you actually win fights, until xom effects actually work as expected 21:09:50 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r797905e2f10d 10/crawl-ref/source/mapdef.cc: Marshall level_range.deny as bool. 21:09:59 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * rbc46fe36ba5e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Remove totally inapropriate monsters from Volcano random spawns. 21:23:23 Xom is boring :( 21:29:32 -!- Dixbert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:45 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:00 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:31 three times, before lair, i've run into a centaur warrior now 21:33:47 is that intended? it feels intensely unfair 21:34:05 this last one was on d:9 21:34:24 the hell do you do about a centaur warrior on d:9? those things kill me in vaults 21:34:36 teleport? 21:34:57 tried, died. the other two times i took care of it 21:35:11 sounds like not a problem then :P 21:35:14 but it is VERY possible to die without getting a turn against a centaur warrior if your max hp is in the 50s 21:35:19 i was a wizard 21:35:30 if i'd been a melee class, or a conjurer 21:35:34 i'd have been utterly fucked 21:35:37 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:35:48 oods are a thing 21:35:53 i know they're a thing 21:36:04 but a centaur warrior on d9 is not an even sort of reasonable thing 21:37:37 maybe i've just been unlucky, but that is not reasonable. why don't you load up pretty much any build with 9 levels (no lair, no orc, just 9 dungeon levels) of experience into an open level with a centaur warrior and tell me how you do 21:38:05 centaur warrior on d:9 is pretty rare 21:38:08 sounds fairly reasonable if you survived 2/3 times 21:38:09 !lg * place=d:9 s=killer 21:38:12 17751 games for * (place=d:9): 1405x an orc warrior, 1300x a troll, 1231x , 1040x a yak, 1036x a killer bee, 801x an orc priest, 672x Erolcha, 611x a centaur, 390x a hill giant, 371x an electric eel, 369x an orc wizard, 331x an ogre, 313x Gastronok, 229x an orc, 209x a war dog, 207x Joseph, 205x an unseen horror, 180x a manticore, 170x a wyvern, 168x a wight, 165x an electrical eel, 157x a giant t... 21:38:25 by that point you'll have a good amount of consumables most of the time 21:38:25 i think most of my melee characters would have taken care of him 21:38:27 on d:13 they are the top killer though (that's also the deepest lair can spawn) 21:38:27 03evilmike * r0b5eed0dd9b3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/orc.des: Use better hints for some hidden orc entries. 21:38:34 also not all d:9s are open levels 21:38:37 !lg * place=d:9 killer=~centaur 21:38:37 726. Wahaha the Blocker (L20 DsFi), worshipper of Jiyva, shot by a centaur warrior (arrow of frost) (created by the fury of Okawaru) on D:9 on 2012-03-24, with 268103 points after 73895 turns and 8:14:22. 21:38:41 i didn't say they were 21:38:42 ^^ one of those vaults made me quit a game just a few minutes ago :P 21:38:43 !lg * place=d:9 killer=~centaur s=killer 21:38:43 726 games for * (place=d:9 killer=~centaur): 611x a centaur, 114x a centaur warrior, Psyche the centaur 21:38:54 I was really frustrated and was like "fuck this, the morgue file will print a list of vaults" 21:39:10 i like psyche the centaur though 21:39:33 nfogravity: what centaurs really need is to actually do speed properly 21:40:23 if you're pretty much any kind of conjurer you take half your hp's damage when it comes into view 21:40:51 after which, you know, consume whatever you want. because it's fast and ranged. 21:41:15 teleport? probably dead. heal wounds? back to where you were. rmsl? enjoy that. 21:41:24 pray to the corner god 21:41:27 pretty much 21:41:28 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:43:08 i know oods are a thing, and i know that randomness is a major part of the game. but that's just ugly 21:47:49 nfogravity: it wouldn't be nearly as bad if they couldn't fire twice so often 21:48:05 agreed 22:32:47 -!- qqryq has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:36:00 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 22:38:23 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Client Quit] 22:56:17 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:25 -!- FaMott has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:59:47 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:24 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:10:47 03MarvinPA * r330c22055939 10/crawl-ref/source/ (xom.cc xom.h): Don't let Xom gift permanent monsters 23:10:48 03MarvinPA * re07cc10dd1ac 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/database/godspeak.txt xom.cc xom.h): New Xom effect: Mass inner flame 23:10:48 03MarvinPA * rd60c4510c7db 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Make monster spines more accurate 23:10:49 03MarvinPA * r9bf59b7647d4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (16 files in 8 dirs): Remove hairy devils 23:10:49 03MarvinPA * rfd2f22861edc 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Make POISON_STAT attacks inflict weaker poison but more stat drain 23:10:49 03MarvinPA * r8d59628df3ad 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Change the band monsters for cacodemons and balrugs 23:10:49 03MarvinPA * r2756b711945c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/pan.des: Improve the demon spawns on unique pan lord floors 23:10:50 03MarvinPA * rbba9ab5590cf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (22 files in 8 dirs): Replace Pit Fiends with Hell Sentinels 23:11:00 03MarvinPA * r1a7325aa6cd2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/monsters.txt mon-data.h): Uncapitalise green deaths 23:11:00 03MarvinPA * r3bc0426564bb 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Allow more types of demon to be placed on the orb run 23:15:29 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:38:49 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:41:00 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 23:42:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:42:44 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 23:49:55 evoked attack should default on last tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5493) by simon1tan 23:56:32 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 23:59:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection]