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01:03:36 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-520-g51d2b46 (32)
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01:20:04 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-520-g51d2b46
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01:41:15 <Napkin> about the tournament posts:
01:41:25 <Napkin> - please link to the score page
01:42:00 <Napkin> - maybe elliptic gaining every banner is not so surprising, considering he knew exactly which banners there were?
01:43:03 <Napkin> (tournament organizer and scoring page coder, no?)
01:43:36 <BlastHardcheese> zomg cheats
01:43:47 <Napkin> non-sense
01:46:57 <Napkin> - also, for probably 1500 players it didn't matter too much which player and which clan won - maybe there are other/more fun facts to announce?
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02:00:06 <Adeon> only winning matters!
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02:09:36 <Gretell> omil (L8 DrAE)  (D:9)
02:48:50 <Gretell> omil (L8 DrAE)  (D:8)
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02:52:42 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * rc7b919f64598 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Desc: iron trolls are not actually made of iron.
02:52:42 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * re1620883b936 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: A bunch of reverts/merges/rewords for monster descriptions, as discussed on IRC.
02:52:42 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * r06621fcb06a6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc player.cc): Whitespace fixes.
02:52:43 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * re0be1ccf3073 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/pl/items.txt: Update .pl items.txt wrt troll hides granting regen.
02:52:43 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * r31653c4d99d7 10/crawl-ref/source/files.h: Axe a stray prototype for an ex-function.
02:52:43 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * r394dacc33360 10/crawl-ref/source/database.cc: Separate db input files from their path.
02:52:44 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * r2495f3d2385b 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Update comments about SAVEDIR.
02:52:44 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * r019c4accf314 10/crawl-ref/source/database.cc: Detect db timestamps going backwards.
02:52:45 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * rdc2dd70b78b7 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Axe a ridiculously outdated comment.
02:52:45 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * r6e6000025c74 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/ (database/monspeak.txt des/builder/uniques.des): Enable Donald in spider, give him related speech.
02:52:46 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * r2a6567c568a5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 4 dirs): Clean up Terpsichore's leftovers.
02:52:46 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * ra918bc1199b3 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Remove an utterly impossible assertion.
02:52:51 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * r19689718b380 10/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Forbid blowguns of most brands.
03:11:45 <Gretell> omil (L8 DrAE)  (D:8)
03:20:42 <kilobyte> !lm omil type=crash -log
03:20:46 <Sequell> 9. omil, XL8 DrAE, T:7987 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/omil/crash-omil-20120316-081142.txt
03:26:23 <Gretell> braverobin (L3 MiFi) ASSERT(next_line >= n) in 'message.cc' at line 449 failed. (D:2)
03:26:54 <Gretell> braverobin (L3 MiFi) ASSERT(next_line >= n) in 'message.cc' at line 449 failed. (D:2)
03:27:35 <Famott> !lm braverobin type=crash -log
03:27:36 <Sequell> 2. braverobin, XL3 MiFi, T:860 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/braverobin/crash-braverobin-20120316-082651.txt
03:31:01 <kilobyte> Bravely bold Sir Robin rode forth from Camelot
03:31:01 <kilobyte> He was not afraid to die, O brave Sir Robin
03:31:01 <kilobyte> He was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways
03:31:01 <kilobyte> Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin
03:31:03 <kilobyte> He was not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp
03:31:15 <kilobyte> Or to have his eyes gouged out and his elbows broken
03:31:16 <kilobyte> To have his kneecaps split and his body burned away
03:31:16 <kilobyte> And all his limbs hacked and mangled, brave Sir Robin
03:31:16 <kilobyte> His head smashed in and his heart cut out
03:31:17 <kilobyte> And his liver removed and his bowels unplugged
03:40:17 <due> tourney wtf!
03:44:45 <Cheibriados> reproducible crash on "message_colour = mute:. " ^Fx (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5435) by KiloByte
03:54:00 <due> kilobyte: http://nkwiatek.com/
03:57:55 <kilobyte> cool
03:59:15 <due> fluid dynamics in ascii, apparently :D
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04:05:36 <kilobyte> yeah... regular folks can at most make a storm in a teacup, we can simulate it on a terminal instead
04:07:43 <due> :D
04:12:15 <Napkin> hehe
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06:00:07 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-533-g1968971
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06:42:47 <Cheibriados> Let players eat poisonous chunks (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5436) by dk
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07:02:07 <Henzell> Kyrris the Metallomancer (L17 DDEE) ERROR: range check error (400 / 400) (Spider:5)
07:04:05 <Henzell> Kyrris the Metallomancer (L17 DDEE) ERROR: range check error (400 / 400) (Spider:5)
07:04:31 <Henzell> Kyrris the Metallomancer (L17 DDEE) ERROR: range check error (400 / 400) (Spider:5)
07:11:24 <HangedMan> poor kyrris managed to lose his gossamer rune completely to those webs
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07:18:22 <kilobyte> er, how?
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07:18:57 <kilobyte> ah, right, a level excursion via X[ then crash would do it
07:20:28 <ais523> can you just add one to the game to compensate?
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07:30:19 <kilobyte> I can, Nap King theoretically can, but even game-killing bugs rarely get such fixes if they can't be done via a save compat shim
07:30:27 <kilobyte> s/I can/I can't/
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08:29:37 <Cheibriados> Missing Tile: gas trap (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5437) by dk
08:58:42 <CIA-62> 03|amethyst * rf2178dc021e4 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Move the cursor even for muted prompts.
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09:46:21 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-534-gf2178dc (32)
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09:53:45 <alefury> what about spider eggs btw? :D
09:55:15 <alefury> old idea, i know
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10:57:04 <Cheibriados> Crawl consistently crashes on start (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5438) by rpglover64
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11:41:54 <Gretell> atrodo (L23 FeTm) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,17) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef))
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12:29:06 <Henzell> minmay the Brawler (L15 TrWr) ERROR: range check error (400 / 400) (Spider:5)
12:31:12 <Henzell> minmay the Brawler (L15 TrWr) ERROR: range check error (400 / 400) (Spider:5)
12:31:33 <st_> anyone want to do some zigsprint changes for me? it is just adding some things to the starting room
12:40:31 <st_> actually nevermind, I will probably need to do some testing with it
12:40:47 <phyphor> st_: adding dex rings?
12:41:23 <st_> adding EW/EA, dragon armours, some misc items, some other unrands
12:41:31 <st_> I might change the loot a little
12:42:03 <phyphor> I'm still confused by the number and variety of rings
12:42:30 <st_> you can't set the plusses so I just put a bunch of them
12:42:34 <phyphor> in the starting room, I've seen a couple of +6s and sometimes nothing but +2 and +1
12:42:40 <phyphor> ah, that makes sense
12:42:50 <phyphor> I suppose settign arti rings would be too powerful?
12:42:59 <phyphor> or are there no unrand rings?
12:43:19 <st_> hm I'm not sure if you can set artefacts like that
12:43:24 <HangedMan> there are plenty of unrand rings but they're all pretty focused, one can't set much besides ego for randarts
12:43:30 <st_> a ring with +6 of all stats would be good
12:43:45 <HangedMan> ring of zigsprint
12:43:49 <phyphor> I'm curious because obviously there's the current arti set up for heavy armour users
12:44:04 <HangedMan> that's half there for the joke, though
12:44:09 <phyphor> joke?
12:44:31 <HangedMan> one of ??challenges is do a ziggurat with all three unrands given at the start of zigsprint
12:44:41 <phyphor> oh, right
12:44:51 <phyphor> are they really that bad?
12:44:56 <HangedMan> “randart” will force a randart. Most of the above modifiers will be ignored, except for “ego” (for weapons only).
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12:45:15 <HangedMan> probably not going to work out
12:45:24 <st_> they are all double edge swords in the normal game, and unsuited to zigs
12:45:26 <HangedMan> the octopus king rings come to mind
12:45:31 <st_> but all pretty fun to use
12:45:43 <phyphor> they're hilariously fun to use in zigsprint
12:45:57 <phyphor> Are there magic user equivalents?
12:46:12 <phyphor> somethign with +int and -cast, or +cast and -int
12:46:17 <HangedMan> not particularly
12:46:50 <HangedMan> the robe of folly should be set up like that to evoke more "folly" and less of mistfortune, with something like archmagi and rF- rC-
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13:10:26 <ToBeFree> Henzell did not mention two different unique-kills. However, it responds to privmsg-echo and it still posts some messages here. What happened? O.o
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13:10:43 <HangedMan> ??boring uniques
13:10:44 <Henzell> unannounced uniques[1/1]: Jessica Ijyb Blork Terence Edmund Psyche Joseph Josephine Harold Jozef Maud Grum Gastronok Dowan Duvessa Pikel Menkaure Purgy Maurice Yiuf Urug Snorg Eustachio Ribbit Nergalle. Deaths are not announced in ##crawl. This doesn't mean they are harmless, just that we don't want to be spammed by everyone killing them.
13:10:47 <MarvinPA> it doesn't mention some uniques
13:10:51 <MarvinPA> those ones, yes
13:36:32 <ToBeFree> ah, ok^^
13:41:29 <FaMott> Is there a way to set up tab-autofight to use quivered items when possible?
13:41:46 <FaMott> like, if they're a distance away, instead of moving to attack with a hand axe, throw a javelin?
13:41:54 <FaMott> that seems like a lua thing
13:43:34 <MarvinPA> st_: i'm still testing it a bit but i can make it possible to set item pluses in vaults, should be able to push it in a few minutes
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13:57:13 <st_> MarvinPA: nice, thank you
13:57:42 <st_> I have to wait until there's a windows build because I'm a loser who can't use git though!!
13:58:27 <HangedMan> designing_like_wensley_reasons
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14:29:38 <res> st_: is not that hard to make a windows build
14:30:18 <res> I think I have some mingw cross-compile scripts, might be able to hack something together
14:30:27 <st_> res: yeah, I looked at the instructions and it didn't seem too complex, but I haven't attempted it yet
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14:42:53 <CIA-62> 03MarvinPA * r65a746cab8cf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Remove Nemelex's Mark Four ability
14:42:56 <CIA-62> 03MarvinPA * r2c4fb18e6fdd 10/crawl-ref/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Allow setting item pluses (for weapons, armour, jewellery, missiles) in vaults
14:42:56 <CIA-62> 03MarvinPA * r465f78f5bd35 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/sprint/sprint_v.des: Replace the stack of random rings in Zig Sprint with a couple of +6 rings
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15:32:21 <CIA-62> 03|amethyst * rc2b40290474e 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix stat gain on interrupted level-up.
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16:24:51 <HangedMan> evilmike_catoblepas_cave really should use perm_ench:petrified on the petrified plants
16:43:18 <res> @??grinder
16:43:19 <Gretell> Grinder (025) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 3/11 | Damage: 1105(pain) | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(24), 02cold++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 322 | Sp: pain (d10), paralyse, blink.
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18:19:47 <Wensley> galehar: mursu the La Petite Mort (L27 SpWn) <-- surely this should just be "mursu la Petite Mort", right?
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18:44:16 <Cheibriados> Identified Snake Pit stairs aren't in shift-g menu (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5439) by Range4Dayz
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18:46:48 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: uhm, removing "Mark Four" breaks the progression Nemelex has
18:47:16 <kilobyte> the avility was there not for having top usefulness, but for theme and looks
18:47:32 <kilobyte> you're breaking that... care to revert or possibly replace?
18:47:51 <MarvinPA> well i don't think it's worth having an entirely useless ability just for theme, really
18:48:57 <kilobyte> like with Makhleb, usefulness or not is a matter of adjusting piety costs
18:49:29 <kilobyte> no one used Greater Destruction because it costed almost as much as the hugely better Greater Servant
18:49:36 <MarvinPA> i can't really think of a case where i'd use mark four even if it were completely free
18:49:47 <MarvinPA> since it prevents you stacking decks
18:50:06 <mikee_> i used greater destruction in some cases
18:50:31 <MarvinPA> greater destruction is obviously a useful effect, yeah, just had poorly balanced costs
18:50:38 <mikee_> but yes, i agree about mark four being useless
18:50:40 <MarvinPA> whereas mark four doesn't do anything worthwhile in the first place
18:50:57 <mikee_> i can barely be bothered to remember what it does because i always file it away mentally as 'nothing'
18:51:28 <|amethyst> you (or somebody) mentioned "double down", what about "deal four"?
18:51:44 <kilobyte> |amethyst: what would it do?
18:52:07 <|amethyst> draw four cards in a row, in the time one card would normally take
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18:52:34 <mikee_> that sounds really strong
18:52:51 <Wensley> draw four from the deck of punishment
18:52:54 <st_> could expend the deck after use
18:53:03 <|amethyst> if it took the full time it would be really weak
18:53:13 <|amethyst> maybe "in the time two cards would normally take"?
18:53:20 <Wensley> hey guys let's buff nemelex :D
18:53:34 <kilobyte> 1. not if you can't stop, 2. piety costs can balance anything
18:53:58 <mikee_> expending the deck sounds cool
18:53:59 <evilmike> how would you handle targeting with such an ability?
18:54:06 <evilmike> some cards pick a target, others don't...
18:54:25 <jle> Sequentially, one draw at a time?
18:54:26 <|amethyst> I was thinking target each separately
18:54:43 <|amethyst> what jle said
18:55:22 <mikee_> the first 3 cards could use 0 aut and the last card could use the full time
18:55:27 <mikee_> if that's what you mean?
18:55:29 <|amethyst> yeah
18:56:21 <jle> This sounds "fun" when you draw a lot of orb cards and they collide next to you. :P
18:56:28 <|amethyst> yeah
18:56:33 <kilobyte> jle: that's the point!
18:56:40 <|amethyst> that helps balance the power :)
18:56:42 <MarvinPA> sounds really strong even if it expended the deck
18:56:55 <galehar> Wensley: right for mursu
18:57:01 <|amethyst> stronger than stack five?
18:57:13 <mikee_> MarvinPA, good for killing cerebov
18:57:14 <MarvinPA> four legendary summons in a turn would be quite something
18:57:34 <mikee_> four herd cards woule be like two herd cards
18:58:09 <mikee_> i would be more interested in the power of destruction decks with this ability, personally
18:58:26 <MarvinPA> well destruction and summoning would be the only decks you'd ever use it on, yeah
18:58:46 <kilobyte> escape potentially
18:58:48 <MarvinPA> assuming you can't draw four from a stacked deck because that would just be absurd
18:59:01 <|amethyst> yeah
19:00:27 <kilobyte> also, there's a little known secret: you can crash-cheat with every Nemelex ability that has a prompt
19:01:22 <kilobyte> Drawn Three three wild magics?  HUP it.
19:01:36 <mikee_> i know this secret
19:01:45 <mikee_> because you mentioned it in one of my bug reports =P
19:01:56 <galehar> how about just disabling rain instead of Fedhas in zotdef? Or firing through plants would be brokenly good?
19:01:58 <kilobyte> still never got around to fix it
19:04:26 <kilobyte> galehar: it would allow many lines of defenses.  Also, Fedhas' abilities duplicate what you can already do, without obeying the limits.
19:04:34 <Cheibriados> 0.10 crashes every time while trying to view skill menu help (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5440) by MattyDub
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19:05:13 <kilobyte> for Draw Three, I can't think of a way to fix it that doesn't involve forcing you into a menu on game restore
19:05:47 <mikee_> maybe it can be fixed indirectly by rebalancing wonders
19:06:14 <kilobyte> such a capability wouldn't be bad (interrupted acquirement, etc), but may be hard on the interface
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19:09:40 <|amethyst> something similar already happens with the level-up stat gain prompt
19:09:51 <|amethyst> I know because I broken it recently :)
19:10:00 <|amethyst> s/broken/broke/
19:10:21 <|amethyst> "similar" as in it reprompts
19:10:54 <|amethyst> but that's a hack based on not raising the XL until after getting an answer
19:13:23 <ogsus> kilobyte: have you taken a look at ipbt source? do you know if it would be hard to add unicode support or special-case some of crawls unicode characters so they don't mess up the display?
19:14:07 <ogsus> or would it be easier (possible, even) to write something that will convert characters in a ttyrec (fixing block lengths as well)
19:14:49 <kilobyte> ogsus: you're barking up the wrong tree.  Would you ask Microsoft to fix a bug in Safari?
19:15:04 <kilobyte> although termplay is pretty damn buggy too
19:15:28 <ogsus> kilobyte: i'm only asking you because i know you wrote termplay, and i've tried asking simon tatham but no reply
19:15:39 <phyphor> ogsus: you need a reply from Simon?
19:16:05 <kilobyte> one problem with ipbt is that's INSANELY slow
19:16:13 <ogsus> not with lazy-mode
19:16:26 <kilobyte> on the order of >minute for something that takes below 0.1s with termplay
19:16:30 <kilobyte> lazy-mode?
19:16:47 <ogsus> jmazon on github wrote a few patches that will let you start watching instantly
19:17:20 <ogsus> as it will parse while you watch, at least from the beginning - i think i could combine that with start wherever you want, and voila, no more preprocessing issues
19:17:35 <ogsus> now as long as it doesn't go balls on unicode characters i'm happy
19:18:17 <ogsus> i've tried filtering out unicode characters, translating them to ascii, all in the ipbt source but no go - i'm not a programmer, i just know how to twiddle with code
19:20:03 <kilobyte> ah, so you can't forward right before the end?
19:20:16 <phyphor> ogsus: were you reporting it as a bug? If so, did you read http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html ?
19:20:17 <kilobyte> s/right/until right/
19:21:35 <kilobyte> phyphor: he doesn't seem to respond
19:21:38 <ogsus> kilobyte: no, you can't go play what hasn't been parsed
19:21:45 <ogsus> sorry, i have some bad internet here
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19:21:51 <ogsus> yes, i have read that
19:22:00 <phyphor> kilobyte: who doesn't?
19:22:27 <kilobyte> I sent him a partial implementation for the only wishlist item marked as "difficulty: mayhem: Probably impossible", but without any answer
19:22:31 <kilobyte> Simon Tatham
19:22:43 <phyphor> kilobyte: I can maybe give him a nudge
19:23:17 <kilobyte> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/wishlist/win-command-prompt.html
19:23:58 <kilobyte> there's a little-known Windows API known as "Microsoft Active Accessibility" that lets you make hooks for writes to the console
19:24:46 <phyphor> interesting
19:25:15 <kilobyte> it was introduced in some regional versions of Win98, and in all versions of Win2k, but is basically never advertised at all in Microsoft's documentation
19:25:24 <kilobyte> ie, you need to know where to look
19:25:46 <phyphor> long story short I know him through an online community we've both been using for over a decade, and I've had a frink with him many years ago. I amy, therefore, be able to gently nudge him.
19:25:51 <phyphor> But I also know he's a busy, busy chap
19:26:01 <phyphor> and right now it's half past midnight
19:26:05 <phyphor> err
19:26:10 <phyphor> s/frink/drink/
19:26:35 <phyphor> So, if you guys pm me some details I'll do what I can to pass them on
19:26:37 <phyphor> PM me?
19:27:32 * phyphor sleeps
19:30:11 <kilobyte> ogsus: I wonder, perhaps it would be possible to combine termplay and ipbt?  The former is INSANELY better on the backend, but its user interface is BEYOND ABYSMAL.
19:30:41 <ogsus> kilobyte: that's something i was wondering too, i just didn't want to ask because i would sound like an asshole
19:31:01 <kilobyte> right to not even displaying stuff right when something doesn't meet expectations that I had many years ago and didn't get to fix
19:31:02 <ogsus> it would mainly be porting over ipbt features into termplay, because ipbt is kind of a mess
19:31:33 <ogsus> having putty as an internal terminal emulator is imho not okay :(
19:31:47 <kilobyte> termplay (as in, the user interface) needs pretty much to be rewritten from scratch, although the library is solid
19:32:04 <ogsus> yes, the library is solid - i've been going through it and i like it
19:32:42 <ogsus> sometimes the code is dense
19:32:50 <kilobyte> there are also nasty races in the interface, when I naively tried to do threading
19:33:03 <ogsus> but by ui, you mean the stuff in player.cc etc?
19:33:52 <kilobyte> yeah
19:34:24 <kilobyte> also some curses interaction
19:34:49 <ogsus> yes, curses
19:34:56 <kilobyte> there's no real way around threading, too -- it's needed to implement termcast watching
19:35:15 <ogsus> right now the perl module is being used, right?
19:35:48 <ogsus> for termcast that is
19:35:57 <kilobyte> termplay is broken beyond recognition, but for something that works, you can use "termcat termcast://termcast.develz.org/FooTV -" (handy as an alias)
19:36:25 <kilobyte> uhm no, termplay predates that perl thing
19:37:03 <ogsus> no, i mean on the server end
19:37:10 <ogsus> oh oh i see what you mean
19:41:16 <ogsus> well, i can try to help, although i have no skills - local ttyrec players are one of my current interests because i have no internet when i have time to watch them
19:43:12 <|amethyst> is there a way for the player to know how big the deck is, other than stack five?
19:44:12 <MarvinPA> peek at two when there's one card in the deck
19:44:33 <|amethyst> hm
19:44:45 <|amethyst> I was thinking about what should happen if there aren't enough cards
19:44:53 <|amethyst> the simple thing would be to just draw what's left
19:45:09 <|amethyst> more interesting might be to make the extra draws come from the deck of punishments instead
19:45:56 <MarvinPA> that'd be interesting in terms of making it an actual gamble, yeah
19:47:10 <ogsus> but it would be one of the few god abilities besides xom and makhleb where you actually can get something negative
19:47:13 <MarvinPA> maybe just make it a max of one deck of punishments card
19:48:20 <MarvinPA> not really? triple draw can be negative already
19:49:22 <ogsus> but only within deck limits - can be negative and will be negative (if you fulfill those conditions) are different as wel
19:49:22 <Wensley> there's a problem if the god of gambling is discouraged from presenting risks :P
19:49:29 <kilobyte> yeah
19:49:31 <MarvinPA> well, and all unmarked cards for that matter, but seeing as the benefit here would be way bigger it seems perfectly reasonable for the downside to be bigger too
19:49:39 <kilobyte> we keep doing things like removing Torment from destruction
19:50:20 <MarvinPA> torment's still in there, just rarer
19:50:40 <MarvinPA> and isn't a downside if you're undead
19:52:38 <|amethyst> Hm
19:52:56 <|amethyst> I worry that this feels kind of like an "ultimate"
19:53:13 <|amethyst> and that it will make "stack five" something of an anticlimax
19:53:16 <MarvinPA> incidentally a much lower-effort solution would be to remove peek at two as well, 1,3,5 is a nice regular progression
19:53:33 <MarvinPA> peek at two does at least have some use compared to mark four, but not a lot
19:54:46 <kilobyte> stack five is the only way to get any reliable effects
19:55:38 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  so you think stack five is probably more powerful than deal four?
19:56:22 <kilobyte> not sure if having stacked Tombs, Bargains, etc iss good from balance's point of view, but yeah, when it comes to power, it certainly is
19:56:54 <|amethyst> then I won't worry about it
19:57:02 <MarvinPA> stuff that gets stacked for is generally a good indication of effects that need nerfing, too :P
19:57:08 <MarvinPA> (tomb!)
19:57:47 <MarvinPA> i think that and portal were the only big ones really, though
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19:57:51 <kilobyte> also, what about: "Nemelex says, oh, you ran out of cards.  Fret not, get the rest from this deck here:" (a random one, with heavy weights.  Wonders very unlikely, punishment plentiful)
19:58:32 <kilobyte> it's a rare thing to get Bargain when you're stacking some deck, but everyone will keep it if it does
19:58:47 <kilobyte> the Oddities rule could be fleshed out
19:58:56 <kilobyte> and allow cards from any other deck, too
19:59:13 <|amethyst> hm
19:59:39 <kilobyte> we could make some fun non-pure decks too
19:59:39 <mikee_> trowel and water were on my occasional stack list too
19:59:49 <mikee_> those are obviously sort of broken
20:00:02 <|amethyst> I'd like to see nemelex gift all the cards
20:00:07 <kilobyte> mikee_: not Warpwright?
20:00:50 <kilobyte> you need some T&D to put it to good use, but I consider it among most broken cards
20:01:22 <mikee_> kilobyte, warpwright is also potentially broken
20:01:24 <mikee_> as well as swap
20:01:39 <kilobyte> s/T&D/T&D or a few unhurried turns/
20:01:55 <MarvinPA> i'd really rather nemelex *not* gift all the cards at this point (specifically no more wonders or dungeons, but allow some deck of battle cards instead)
20:01:55 <mikee_> trowel is actually very nice to stack as a form of escape
20:02:14 <MarvinPA> since that leaves room to still have some crazy powerful effects (elixir, trowel) without nemelex gifting them
20:02:23 <mikee_> just need to be able to afford a zig if you should get one
20:02:48 <MarvinPA> whereas right now trowel is just obviously completely broken
20:03:11 <mikee_> if only nemelex had a card that gave you gold...
20:03:32 <|amethyst> co-alchemist
20:03:51 <kilobyte> mikee_: Genie
20:03:51 <mikee_> you know in my 'current' nemelex game i ran out of gold from spamming bazaars
20:03:56 <mikee_> ah nice
20:04:11 <mikee_> not a high enough rate to fully abuse bazaars though
20:08:58 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: what if we drive up other cards to, say, 20% instead of current 5%?  Expanding what you can get there, of course.
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20:11:20 <MarvinPA> huh? i don't follow, sorry
20:12:42 <evilmike> MarvinPA: you mentioned elixer cards. does nemelex actually gift these currently?
20:12:49 <evilmike> I thought you can only get them in non-nemelex decks
20:13:00 <evilmike> (which is good given how insanely useful they are)
20:13:08 <MarvinPA> no, just meant them as an example of an absurd effect that nemelex couldn't gift
20:13:17 <MarvinPA> like trowel! :P
20:13:39 <evilmike> ah
20:15:48 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: I mean, currently 95% cards you get belong to the deck's primary archetype, this could be made less reliable
20:15:52 <evilmike> speaking of making nemelex more of a "gamble", has anyone ever brought up increasing the chance of "out of place" cards?
20:16:03 <kilobyte> all while giving rare fun cards some use
20:16:05 <MarvinPA> oh, i thought it was 99%
20:16:07 <evilmike> I mean oddities deck, although oddities should be expanded
20:16:49 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: oh, indeed 99%
20:18:49 <BlastHardcheese> fr slot machines
20:20:52 <res> fr pachinko
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21:16:05 <|amethyst> how much MP should Deal Four take?
21:16:17 <|amethyst> 4?  8?
21:18:57 <|amethyst> I think I'll make it 4 for now; numbers can be tweaked
21:19:16 <MarvinPA> probably more than 4 so you can't easily use it repeatedly in combat
21:21:23 <|amethyst> burning through the whole deck (and not giving piety) limits that somewhat
21:21:37 <|amethyst> though I guess nemelex worshippers often have *lots* of decks
21:22:05 <|amethyst> I worry that 8 MP will exclude e.g. trolls (since Evo doesn't give MP)
21:22:06 <MarvinPA> still silly if you can just burn a ton of decks in zot:5 for insane amounts of summons in a few turns, yeah
21:22:28 <MarvinPA> not like piety or having lots of decks left will matter there
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21:23:19 <MarvinPA> i thought someone suggested evoc giving mp like invoc at one point, that might be reasonable regardless
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21:47:31 <CIA-62> 03|amethyst * r363a17cc58cc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 2 dirs): New Nemelex ability: Deal Four.
21:56:02 <Wensley> so my friend is ultra pissed that you got rid of mark four, apparently
21:56:12 <Wensley> it was his favorite nemelex power
21:56:16 <res> ... what is a deal four
21:56:29 <MarvinPA> he was the only person who ever used it i guess
21:56:38 <Wensley> he says you are all terrible
21:56:42 <Wensley> and wrong about everything
21:56:50 <|amethyst> You draw four cards from an unmarked deck.  It uses up the deck.  If there weren't enough cards, you also get to deal from the deck of punishment.  You get no piety gain from the cards.
21:57:45 <res> |amethyst: ... you get punishment for not having enough cards in a deck?
21:57:49 <|amethyst> !learn add deal_four You draw four cards from an unmarked deck.  It uses up the deck.  If there weren't enough cards, you also get to deal a card from the deck of punishment.  You get no piety gain from the cards.
21:57:50 <Henzell> deal four[1/1]: You draw four cards from an unmarked deck.  It uses up the deck.  If there weren't enough cards, you also get to deal a card from the deck of punishment.  You get no piety gain from the cards.
21:58:11 <|amethyst> res:  Yes, to make it a little risky
22:01:09 <res> ??xom wrath
22:01:11 <Henzell> xom wrath[1/1]: Abandonment: 50 penance, Xom acts.  Retribution: Xom acts.  (On average, this is worse than just worshipping Xom; but the worst case is the same, so if you are prepared to deal with Happy Xom you should be fine with Mad Xom)
22:01:28 <res> ... retribution: Xom acts. okay
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22:05:00 <res> is webtiles source in a repository somewhere
22:07:07 <|amethyst> it's part of crawl
22:07:54 <|amethyst> see source/webserver/README in the crawl source for the server part
22:08:32 <|amethyst> the game part is just compiling with WEBTILES=y
22:11:30 <kilobyte> and only due to a few slight regressions it's not done by default
22:12:27 <kilobyte> since webtiles builds can do regular console games, and do so without a special argument
22:12:27 <|amethyst> on Unix I assume
22:13:05 <kilobyte> ah wait, it also builds the tile image, so it may be better to not do that unless requested
22:13:19 <|amethyst> or does AF_UNIX work on mingw
22:14:05 <kilobyte> Windows does have a counterpart so it's likely AF_UNIX is translated
22:14:27 <kilobyte> webtiles don't build on Windows for other reasons, though
22:15:04 <|amethyst> I think some people might consider that more than a "slight" regression :)
22:15:22 <kilobyte> details :p
22:16:03 <res> feh, not building on windows just means you need to write a different makefile for windows
22:16:22 <res> although wait what happened to the loads and load of makefiles
22:54:56 <|amethyst> git log --grep '\bnerf\(s\|ed\|ing\|\)\b' | sed -ne '/^Author:/ { s/ <.*//; p }' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr
22:55:23 <|amethyst> kilobyte far surpasses everyone else, with 42 "nerf"s :)
22:55:50 <|amethyst> only 3 "buff"s
22:56:46 <kilobyte> because I tend to use synonyms?
22:56:52 <|amethyst> heh
22:57:02 <|amethyst> not for "nerf" apparently :)
22:59:09 <|amethyst> also, 0.10 was the "buffest" release, with 20 buffs and 26 nerfs between 0.9 and 0.10
22:59:27 <|amethyst> again ignoring all the failings of simple text processing
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23:00:32 <|amethyst> the runner-up was 0.6 with 14 buffs and 19 nerfs
23:01:02 <|amethyst> 0.8.0 had 9 buffs and 45(!) nerfs
23:01:16 <|amethyst> hm
23:02:00 <|amethyst> (the by-version stats count occurrences and the by-dev just commits)
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23:14:36 <evilmike> 0.6 was the nerfiest version to me, since that was when the dreaded AC nerf happened. Also, for a while monsters could get double attacks
23:14:36 <Henzell> evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
23:14:43 <evilmike> those two things made a pretty huge difference
23:16:35 <evilmike> another huge one from the past was the introduction of spell ranges, I don't know which version that was though
23:18:21 <MarvinPA> 0.5 maybe
23:18:27 <MarvinPA> not sure
23:29:23 <dtsund> I think it was either 0.5 or 0.4.
23:33:53 <evilmike> do you think an "orb weaver" spider should count as a non-caster?
23:34:38 <evilmike> (I would say yes)
23:35:20 <|amethyst> does it cast?
23:37:05 <evilmike> it would have spells, but not all monsters with spells count as casters (for example: blink frogs cast blink)
23:37:50 <|amethyst> I mean, if it
23:38:17 <Wensley> does silence keep blink frogs from blinking?
23:38:34 <|amethyst> presumably it's casting spells more like "throw web" than, say, IMB
23:38:52 <|amethyst> so probably a non-caster
23:38:54 <evilmike> this one would "weave" orbs of destruction (at a low power)
23:39:00 <|amethyst> hmm
23:39:32 <evilmike> this obviously counts as a magical enemy, but right now I'm thinking more along the lines of say, a blink frog, than a wizard
23:39:49 <evilmike> it's a small detail, anyway
23:40:02 <|amethyst> how does antimagic work with non-caster casters?
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23:40:37 <evilmike> it affects them
23:40:47 <evilmike> antimagic is a fantastic way to shut down orbs of fire, for example
23:40:56 <evilmike> oh, and "priest" enemies are immune to antimagic, I believe
23:41:13 <|amethyst> ah, it's just _is_physiological_spell() that ignores antimagic
23:42:14 <evilmike> that's just breath attacks I think
23:42:21 <kilobyte> evilmike: ordinary spiders are orb weavers already
23:42:38 <|amethyst> this is a terrible pun
23:42:39 <evilmike> You mean the "vanilla" spider enemies?
23:42:52 <kilobyte> |amethyst: yeah
23:43:02 <|amethyst> I mean, a good pun, but untranslatable
23:43:13 <kilobyte> let's leave it to NetHack to use puns for design
23:44:03 * kilobyte still hates them for breaking Xorns eating unchanging for a lame pun.
23:44:24 <|amethyst> tridents
23:44:26 <dtsund> Seems like a weird thing to get annoyed at.
23:44:29 <evilmike> it started as a pun, but I liked it after thinking about trying to dodge an orb of destruction and getting caught in a web
23:45:36 <|amethyst> hm
23:46:15 <|amethyst> something similar to calcifying breath could have the same effect
23:46:35 <kilobyte> puns can be good in descriptions, but not for actual mechanics
23:47:26 <|amethyst> I do like this idea of dodging things while webs are around
23:47:40 <MarvinPA> the pun seems unimportant compared to the actual gameplay mechanic, yeah
23:48:45 <MarvinPA> more interesting than poison-branded melee attacks all day, targets a different set of defenses, fun to dodge around
23:48:55 <evilmike> It could be named anything, really.
23:49:26 <MarvinPA> also, "tarantella"
23:49:31 <dtsund> kilobyte: I'm fine with puns being mechanics in NetHack.  In Crawl, it doesn't fit as well.
23:49:31 <dtsund> (Speaking of, I kind of dislike how ?charging lets you enchant weapons of electrocution.)
23:49:34 <MarvinPA> spider even has a precedent already
23:49:54 <MarvinPA> dtsund: it doesn't since 0.6 or something
23:50:06 <evilmike> tarantellas are also one of the better monsters (doesn't use a poison attack)
23:50:26 <evilmike> also, I think jumping spiders should eventually lose their poison attack and gain a "web" melee attack instead, but that can come later
23:50:27 <MarvinPA> indeed
23:51:24 <|amethyst> spiders with ranged attack should run away from the player to maintain range
23:51:32 <|amethyst> s/attack/attacks/
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23:55:02 <kilobyte> I have an "ensnare" spell coded but untested -- shoots a beam that, if hits, spawns a web around you.  Too bad only Arachne can use it, no other sentients around.
23:55:30 <|amethyst> what if you flavour it as "throwing a web"
23:55:32 <kilobyte> need some spell ideas other than boring Poison Arrow and co, too
23:55:52 <kilobyte> uhm, what would the spider throw it with?
23:56:14 <kilobyte> also, it sucks as you can web folks only above floor
23:56:21 <|amethyst> its highly evolved weaponised spinneret
23:58:23 <kilobyte> could rework web code to detach it from traps, but that'd take some work
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23:59:18 <|amethyst> can you be netted only above floor?
23:59:39 <evilmike> flying makes you immune to the effect