00:01:32 galehar: about shortening branches: portal_branches not only break save compat, but also introduce code to allow changing branch depths without having to break saves 00:03:12 galehar: so there's no need to do it directly on merge, except for placing of Elf:5/Vault:8/... endings still relying on fixed numbers 00:03:58 should use tags instead, I guess? 00:05:10 so with portal_branches right now a game that started with Vaults being 8 levels deep and loaded in a version with 7 levels would either: 1. not have the ending (if you went to V:7 but not V:8), or 2. have it at V:7 (if you didn't generate the level yet) 00:05:31 fixable by specifying the ending vault as V:$ (syntax already used elsewhere) 00:05:37 oh 00:05:57 SamB_: theoretically doable, but the compat code would be so complex that I gave up 00:06:28 I meant instead of V:$, which I'd not heard of 00:06:32 and there's several thousands code for TAG_MAJOR 32 compat already, could use purging them 00:06:55 I meant a different kind of tag, too 00:07:35 but, how does V:$ help if V:7 was already generated ? 00:11:22 hmm, good point 00:11:28 er no, it does 00:11:53 in your game V is 8 levels deep 00:12:03 oh, okay 00:12:08 only _new_ games get it with 7 00:12:13 gotcha 00:13:16 doing a partial push... a good part of the code is in an extremely hairy rebase mess, including the level stack 00:13:44 (commits from september-november that should have long ago been integrated) 00:15:15 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r2cf8a18928f1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Remove Hive stairs. Portal vaults don't need separate feature types. 00:15:19 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r6bd91421d6f2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (15 files): Standardize branch checks to player_in_branch(BRANCH_BEDLAM). 00:15:19 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * raa2c033f1e51 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Don't explicitely pass absdepth:branch in the dungeon builder. 00:15:20 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r7b3785d07791 10/crawl-ref/ (436 files in 45 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into portal_branches 00:15:20 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * rb356aa0270f5 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/features.txt: Drop unused description for Hive stairs. 00:15:20 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r798a8c0d80ec 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Fix a save tag 32 breakage. 00:15:21 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r54db41fcb86f 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-dgn.cc: Fix &: crashing. 00:15:21 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r405e9b68034c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (46 files in 3 dirs): Use branch depth rather than absolute depth as the authoritative one. 00:15:21 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * re96f19b77b2a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (19 files): Cache absdepth0, now that it has to be calculated. 00:15:22 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r29969a4f936d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Forbid Abyss/Pan portal mimics in the vault rather than code. 00:15:25 eep 00:15:25 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * rb89be0430b63 10/crawl-ref/source/ (branch-data.h dungeon.cc ng-init.cc place.cc): Reduce special-casing of hell depth code somewhat. 00:15:25 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r30d37ef7a7da 10/crawl-ref/ (322 files in 43 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into portal_branches 00:15:29 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * rd10eacda565e 10/crawl-ref/source/species.cc: Fix improper MD species abbreviation. 00:22:36 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:24:35 so, 0.10.2 time or 0.10.2 time? 00:28:44 what happened to 0.10.1? 00:29:54 evilmike: I think it was released 00:30:06 and deployed 00:30:12 03evilmike * r95a6aae24e01 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/spider.des: Do not build wasp nests out of stone arches. 00:30:13 not seeing it here: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/downloads 00:30:35 oh, well, that's just a stupid blog, what do they know 00:31:04 ;-P 00:34:18 <|amethyst> it's also not on sourceforge 00:40:07 03|amethyst * r6dbc3453fd2b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-ench.cc mon-place.cc terrain.cc): Teleport away monsters unsubmerging on the player's square. 00:40:56 |amethyst: do you think this fix is safe enough for 0.10.1? 00:41:00 <|amethyst> hmm 00:41:36 <|amethyst> I don't know 00:42:09 03kilobyte * r3dfccf220ece 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/crypt.des: fIX A CASE OF STUCK cAPSlOCK. 00:42:09 03kilobyte * r16d9126aa185 10/crawl-ref/source/ (19 files): Make a bunch of functions static or non-existant. 00:42:10 03kilobyte * r50698463327f 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix a misleading comment. 00:42:26 <|amethyst> It doesn't absolutely prevent the crash, as it is possible that monster_teleport fails 00:43:27 <|amethyst> I may have missed something subtle about moving the teleport check from _dgn_check_terrain_player() to remove_enchantment_effect() 00:45:09 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:45:17 <|amethyst> I tested sunlight + shallow water + big fish + player and air elemental spam 00:45:56 <|amethyst> still, it might be good to let it get a bit of testing in trunk before backporting it 00:46:14 <|amethyst> OTOH, I don't know that it will get much testing, since it's a fairly rare sitation 00:46:48 I can pretend I tagged 0.10.1 and was just testing builds before you pushed it :p 00:47:16 but seriously: this fix is better than potential breakage, right? 00:47:27 <|amethyst> yeah, I guess that's true 00:47:43 <|amethyst> it doesn't appear to make fish randomly teleport around 00:48:17 <|amethyst> or anything silly like that 00:48:47 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:17 <|amethyst> I'm just wary about merging code that was written all of 10 minutes ago into a stable branch 00:50:43 <|amethyst> but it's not like people run nuclear power plants with this codebase 00:50:48 <|amethyst> or, at least, I hope not 00:52:06 <|amethyst> so, yeah, throw it in 00:54:16 how does tasking work out on this project 00:54:48 <|amethyst> people pick things and do them 00:55:15 <|amethyst> sometimes they post an "implementable" on the bug tracker asking for someone (anyone) to do them 00:56:08 only the stuff on the tracker that are considered confirmed issues? 00:56:52 <|amethyst> implementables are essentially feature requests that have been vetted (or made) by the devs 00:57:20 <|amethyst> as for bug fixes, often the issue doesn't even go through a "confirmed" stage 00:57:36 <|amethyst> usually in fact 00:57:37 if i can reproduce the bug it's worth fixing 01:00:06 <|amethyst> Essentially, yes... for me (I usually deal with smaller bugs), if I can confirm and reproduce the problem, usually I'm well on my way to having a fix, so I don't bother marking the bug as confirmed first 01:00:17 <|amethyst> if it looks like it will take a while, I do 01:25:04 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:43 <|amethyst> re: #5400 ("Felids autopickup needles of curare"), I think smock has some good points. It's not like curare needles are, among all items, uniquely dangerous to the player... so why pick them up defensively but not other items 01:43:09 i think they are 01:43:37 why not autopickup distortion weapons 01:51:48 Dixbert, because you don't know that they are distortion until you use them 01:52:10 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.10 * r6a4995586a20 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-ench.cc mon-place.cc terrain.cc): Teleport away monsters unsubmerging on the player's square. 01:52:10 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r0443e65bb2e6 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Changelog for 0.10.1 01:54:31 great, another SourceForge breakage 01:54:58 claims "permission denied" when trying to create a directory for 0.10.1 02:03:21 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:04:11 <|amethyst> #5380 complains about still seeing the just-killed monster when you get the stat-increase prompt... is it worth it to force a redraw? 02:04:13 Keskitalo: could you try uploading 0.10.1 to SourceForge? It's possible they broke uploads only for "developers" with upload rights, not "admins", and you're marked as one. The set of builds is at http://angband.pl/tmp/crawl-0.10.1/ 02:20:06 03kilobyte * r8b32dbd4cb7d 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Changelog for 0.10.1 02:23:50 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10.1-0-g0443e65 (32) 02:30:32 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:31:01 Napkin: 0.10.1 is a yet another reason to upgrade webtiles, and get all those fixes in 02:31:23 oh nooooes! 02:31:28 ;) 02:32:22 unless you're thinking of some [semi-]automated scripts, in which case it won't be on your skin in the future 02:32:45 well, now that the tourney is over we can thing about that 02:33:27 but i'll get ready for work first ;) 02:34:34 work, the curse of the drinking classes 02:38:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:15 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:52 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:39:40 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:43:50 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:39 sickness instead of nausea in item description (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5427) by nagdon 04:10:26 |amethyst: about #5400, I agree. Defensive autopickup is inconsistent and unintuitive. Better to get rid of it. One more step in the direction of empty default config file. 04:10:57 |amethyst: #5380: sure. It's not like a redraw is expensive. 04:12:03 Napkin: now that webtiles is a (big) part of the tournament, we definitely need a trunk version. And for that, we need automated update. 04:12:10 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:01 Napkin: last time, we started the tournament with code that was mostly untested. And we had quite a few bug that could have been catch earlier if we had trunk. 04:20:22 kilobyte: ok for branch length. The V:$ compatibility trick is a great idea. 04:21:02 I'm actually thinking of even more branch shortening. Will try to do some XP stats to plan it. 04:22:59 Also, while we're at it, can we change absdungeon_depth() to have branches difficulty independent of startdepth? 04:23:44 using portal_branches code, yeah, it's not authoritative anymore so can be fudged with 04:24:01 I don't like that L:3 difficulty depends on whether you had an early or late lair 04:24:30 (note: on the version of that branch I pushed to gitorious, the level stack code is missing, thus any portal vaults and the Abyss crash nastily upon return) 04:24:41 yeah 04:25:26 it would be better to always use the average of mindepth and maxdepth, or maybe another arbitray value (so we can define early hard branch or the other way around) 04:25:44 for shortening branches, one of plans is to add Dwarf as an Elf sub-branch but cut away two levels of Elf 04:26:00 -!- rawrmage has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:26:32 since Elf:1-4 suck terribly 04:26:40 dwarf isn't ready, and we can't add 2 new branches in a single release 04:26:52 -!- due has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:27:17 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:28:08 how about: L:5, V:5, E:4, S:4, P:4, A:4? Move (some of) the lost XP and loot to runes and lair branch endings 04:29:21 multiple item heaps on the same positions from KITEM lines (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5428) by nagdon 04:29:21 picking up a rune gives 10k XP and loot rooms in branch end vaults 04:29:49 kilobyte: I can try about in an hour 04:31:07 need to run XP stats to see if it balances out. Any volunteer? 04:43:06 -!- rawrmage has joined ##crawl-dev 04:43:06 -!- rawrmage has quit [Changing host] 04:43:06 -!- rawrmage has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:45 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45:55 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:09 Hah, why is galehar missing his + sign of relevance? What evil schemes are going on behind the scenes? 04:50:20 Interesting, there's a donate button on SF for DCSS.. 04:51:26 dpeg: because I forgot to tell nickserv to identify me. Thanks for pointing it out. 04:51:29 dpeg: and hi! :) 04:51:58 Hi! :) 04:52:28 hi dpeg, galehar! 04:52:32 dpeg or Keskitalo: any idea what could be wrong on SF? Perhaps they made some overhaul and file upload rights need to be re-granted or granted a different way? 04:52:40 and hi :p 04:53:01 galehar: With tears I saw that you moved away from the rune lock. But I guess that's how progress works. 04:53:09 -!- dpeg is now known as grumpypeg 04:53:15 !tell MarvinPA I've made a draft news post with elliptic's tournament stats. Since you've been very active in the tournament, could you write a summary and post it? Thanks! 04:53:16 galehar: OK, I'll let MarvinPA know. 04:53:16 kilobyte: I have no idea, sorry. 04:53:25 kilobyte: I'll try to take a look. 04:54:33 dpeg: we had interesting results from the vow of courage banner. It makes for an interesting challenge, but then the mid-dungeon gets even more boring. 04:55:25 !tell greatzebu could you prepare Mac builds for 0.10.1? 04:55:26 kilobyte: OK, I'll let greatzebu know. 04:55:46 dpeg: so if we were to fix that and have a better overall difficulty progression, we'll end up with an artificial restriction that's no useful anymore 04:56:20 galehar: it takes a patented idiot to die in mid-dungeon after a Vow of Courage 3 04:56:20 (proven) 04:56:20 galehar: well, levels should keep getting cut from the game, slice by slice, in my opinion. 04:56:26 kilobyte: who's the loony? 04:56:37 I'll say again, I really like ebarret's idea of removing V:1-V:7 altogether. :) 04:57:03 If unrandarts auto-id now can we remove the robe of misfortune as it's worse than useless 04:57:13 !lg . char=haee ikiller=~mara x=urune 04:57:13 1. [urune=4] KiloByte the Metallomancer (L27 HaEE), worshipper of Vehumet, blasted by KiloByte's illusion (stone arrow) (woven by Mara) on D:20 on 2012-03-11, with 556627 points after 105455 turns and 10:36:23. 04:57:31 grumpypeg: 10:28 < galehar> how about: L:5, V:5, E:4, S:4, P:4, A:4? Move (some of) the lost XP and loot to runes and lair branch endings 04:57:34 kilobyte: that'd make for a nice story. 04:57:35 that's a big slice 04:58:07 I think 5 levels is enough for long brancges 04:58:12 phyphor: Misfortune is dealt with, it lost its unique tile and masquerades as a randart 04:58:17 galehar: could be done. Although I believe more in the stick than in the carrot. But whatever floats your boat. (The cutting is good in any case.) 04:58:26 -!- grumpypeg is now known as dpeg 04:58:29 I like the rune lock (quite a bit), but it's true that we need to reduce the tedium otherwise as well. Doing the latter first, at least, seems sensible. 04:59:16 dpeg: another idea, wizlabs can only be entered with a rune. 04:59:26 interesting! 04:59:59 10k XP for a rune, + loot chamber, + wizlab opportunity 05:00:11 I'm leaning toward carrots these days :) 05:00:19 galehar goes for a big carrot :P 05:00:30 Rune lock would make "rune->loot" without adding loot chambers. 05:04:10 kilobyte: that's ... even worse! 05:04:37 Three of my co-workers tested DCSS yesterday in the KiSS usability tests, got interesting comments 05:05:57 KiSS has shortened the tutorial lessons, last year 1.5 hours wasn't enough for anyone, now one tester did all lessons in around 0.5 hours.. the two others didn't quite finish it in less-than-hour they had 05:06:05 10.0.1 files in SF: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crawl-ref/files/Stone%20Soup/0.10.1/ 05:06:28 (I never understood the point of the thing to start with) 05:06:59 One of these three was interested in playing more, I'll need to forward the webtiles link to him :) he had played Nethack etc before 05:07:23 My roommate said he was impressed with the depth of the game, although the genre doesn't appeal to him 05:07:42 Generally it sounded like the tutorial was functioning fairly well 05:08:52 ah, so it was a matter of file upload rights being wrong. 05:09:06 I'll try to fix those now.. 05:09:35 Keskitalo: sounds good! 05:09:47 galehar: could you wait with the post until greatzebu awakens and gets Mac stuff? This way you can include a paragraph about the point release. 05:11:14 kilobyte: Not sure what the problem is, but you're now an admin over at sf :P 05:12:00 for some reason you didn'thave shell permission, maybe that was it 05:12:08 assuming something changed in general in sf 05:12:39 Keskitalo: ok, that works too :) 05:13:52 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:29 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21:14 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:05 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:55 Passive acid damage vs unprotected unarmed problem. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5429) by gs 05:31:18 is there a plan for anyone to do a tournament writeup? (usually this was done by dpeg, but i guess he's not officially on the team anymore) 05:33:54 mikee_: I'm not, and indeed, no writeup from me. 05:37:48 new hell spider proposal: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:creatures:hellspider#alternate_proposal 05:39:24 mikee_: it doesn't have to be a dev. Are you volunteering? 05:39:54 i can recap the scoring part for sure, and could even do this today 05:40:07 thanks 05:40:08 i'll need someone to point out to me the relevant usage stats though 05:40:20 i'll ask elliptic. he has good lg fu 05:40:41 he might already have done this 05:40:42 elliptic has posted some stats here yesterday 05:40:55 I've already put them in a draft post 05:41:07 galehar: interesting proposal. I like forced fights, but then I also like the rune lock. 05:41:21 I can re-provide them or provide new ones as desired 05:41:29 Going with defense is good. 05:41:42 if you pastbin something, I (or someone else) can post it 05:41:43 can you pastebin them if you don't mind 05:41:44 galehar: why not use the original one instead? It's pretty detailed, and cannot be trivially avoided by teleporting at sight. 05:42:20 (your version seems to be an extension to Eronarn's, and I really hate that one) 05:42:46 kilobyte: she's transdimentional. She can have an aura of stasis, or follow you when you teleport. 05:43:10 so "summon butteflies, walk away" 05:43:16 kilobyte: haven't read Eronarn's, will do. 05:43:34 obviously, she'll blink close :) 05:43:51 mikee_: http://pastebin.com/r7SHLugz 05:43:58 thanks 05:44:13 but I like that evading is a possible strategy 05:44:15 galehar: but if take all these steps to make the fight unavoidable, then why not simply _make_ the fight unavoidable (cannot progress to next level without dispatching the spider)? 05:44:22 (the format there is last tourney -> this tourney, if that isn't obvious) 05:44:32 elliptic: is there a point in not counting quits as deaths? 05:44:32 yeah 05:44:34 cool stats 05:44:56 it would be good to rename "quit" to "suicide", too 05:44:58 kilobyte: because they mess up stats a lot depending on how much people like Sebi "played"? 05:45:34 !lg * t / ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving)) 05:45:35 dpeg: but I don't want the fight to be unavoidable. Since when do you have to kill *anyone* to win? 05:45:35 37127 games for * (t): N=1521280/37127 (4097.50%) 05:45:39 !lg * t11 / ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving)) 05:45:48 wait what 05:45:51 oh right, that bug 05:45:53 37593 games for * (t11): N=1521280/37593 (4046.71%) 05:46:28 !lg * t ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving)) 05:46:28 3444. Poncheis the Covert (L7 FeBe), worshipper of Trog, quit the game on D:8 on 2012-03-11, with 881 points after 1939 turns and 0:07:37. 05:46:32 !lg * t11 ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving)) 05:46:38 10544. barnex the Covered (L1 MDFi), quit the game on D:1 (dpeg entry circle labyrinth c) on 2011-08-28, with 20 points after 0 turns and 0:00:27. 05:46:58 He didn't like my entry vault, the scoundrel! 05:47:13 !lg * t11 ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving)) s=name 05:47:14 10544 games for * (t11 ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving))): 6751x Sebi, 975x Xiberia, 254x Xenene, 104x Elynae, 101x soul, 73x Omrii, 69x flashdoom, 68x Grildrak, 62x Tenaya, 59x Lawman0, 52x moohaus, 50x giovform, 49x jaruokki, 44x Gilihad, 42x Leibowitz, 41x Zepp, 40x heteroy, 33x lhfral, 33x Fungee, 30x zup, 28x zengineer, 26x akhier, 24x blackjack, 24x Aocescu, 23x rastarogue, 21x Kaffee, 21x s... 05:47:19 also, I think the "adapt to your attacks" design is prone to encourage degenerate behaviours. If you're a FE, pelt it with throw forst on the first level... 05:47:23 !lg * t ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving)) s=name 05:47:23 3444 games for * (t ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving))): 397x Nikinyo, 282x DonAves, 157x syban, 107x Elynae, 74x Kaffee, 60x HoboGoblin, 54x Tenaya, 45x crazyman600, 44x hihot, 43x Zepp, 42x djroomba, 40x ej, 38x johndracula, 35x ibward, 33x shackes, 29x Tollymain, 26x Poncheis, 26x undersol, 26x LogicNinja, 26x Sebi, 24x marxistplot, 24x Neil, 24x Kaldrys, 22x arglypuff, 22x Felyza, 21x darksqual... 05:47:35 galehar: as I said, adapt to defenses could be good 05:48:00 I guess difference in number of quits/leaves between this tourney and last tourney is pretty well explained by Sebi 05:48:17 galehar: that's the whole point -- and can be ignored if the fight is avoidable 05:48:31 so we could take a !Sebi policy instead... but seems to make more sense to throw out all of the games 05:48:39 !lg * t ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving)) s=xl 05:48:39 3444 games for * (t ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving))): 2639x 1, 409x 2, 177x 3, 69x 4, 43x 5, 33x 6, 27x 7, 12x 8, 11x 9, 8x 10, 6x 11, 4x 12, 2x 13, 18, 15, 17, 14 05:48:46 galehar: if you can run away instead of killing it, you don't need any means other than fire 05:48:54 !lg * t11 ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving)) s=xl 05:48:56 10544 games for * (t11 ((ktyp=quitting || ktyp=leaving))): 9741x 1, 416x 2, 185x 3, 77x 4, 31x 5, 30x 6, 22x 8, 13x 7, 9x 9, 8x 10, 4x 13, 3x 11, 3x 14, 20, 26 05:49:24 while it learning means you need to be resourceful somehow 05:49:33 kilobyte has a point 05:49:48 including, possibly, using cold as a FE 06:00:07 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-500-g8b32dbd 06:07:16 I think the forced fight is a problem because it's so different form the rest of the game. For example, when players race for the first win in the tournament, the ones who get spider are screwed. 06:08:50 or at least, at a big disadvantage to the ones who roled snake 06:09:16 I don't believe that game design should cater for challenges or conducts in the first place. 06:09:31 Crawl is a game of dungeon exploration, picking fights and killing. 06:09:57 but there, you're not picking fights. THis one is shoved down your throat 06:10:10 Yes, but you know in advance and will prepare for it. 06:10:37 I thought we wanted to encourage people to do lair branches earlier 06:10:55 anyway, not my problem anymore 06:11:04 still, diving and ninja-ing is a really popular strategy. Having a branch which forbids it is odd. 06:11:22 new Snake isn't that easy either, and Shoals is usually considered harder or on par with Elf:5 06:11:59 galehar: it just means you have to choose any other of 15 branches instead 06:12:22 a branch forbidding a particular strategy sounds good 06:13:28 it does forbid every single strategy that includes having only one way of doing things 06:14:09 anyway, I think having a hellspider that rewards avoiding it, is worse than no hellspider at all 06:14:28 my design doesn't reward avoiding it 06:14:31 kilobyte: in my opinion, Crawl is so big there should be more like this: requiring strategic breadth. 06:14:51 so I'd say there are two options: 1. no hellspider, 2. cobweb-blocked stairs until you kill the spider 06:15:20 dpeg: I tend to agree but I'm not certain a non-guaranteed lair branch is the best place for it 06:15:43 with my proposal, you're encouraged to attack her to drive her away. If you don't, she attacks you and learn your weaknesses. 06:15:48 (including those doodads dpeg suggested earlier, like having a minor earthquake spawn a bunch of shafts for flavour, etc) 06:16:13 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:29 do spiders have any obvious gender (at least for non-entomologists)? 06:16:30 also, she can have her resists randomized, so you should attack her to learn what they are. 06:16:56 that's abusable and extremely spoily 06:16:58 kilobyte: no, I just picture it as a she :) 06:17:10 how? 06:17:12 elliptic: that may indeed be but it's a nice place to start nonetheless (Lair is seen by many players, including non-winners). 06:17:32 galehar: we can have an unique like Ilsuiw, the one proposed so far (Arachne) happens to be female 06:18:12 elliptic: the problem is, the game is currently strongly biased towards 3-runer areas, very few people ever see anything later 06:18:27 dpeg: I'd just be happier if people planning a very narrow character (for example, a near-complete pacifist) knew ahead of time whether they were sacrificing a branch to do so 06:18:37 instead of it being a 50% gamble 06:20:06 kilobyte: that's because most people die before getting to endgame :P 06:20:15 elliptic: exactly 06:20:18 elliptic: I don't think it's a problem: if you're bent on playing a pure pacifist, then you know to avoid Spider when doing Lair. Bad luck if you're out to do an all-runing pure pacifist, but as I said, game design should not cater for fringe cases like this. I believe this only leads to degeneration. 06:20:49 writeup complete 06:20:52 dpeg: I didn't say pure-pacifist.. most ely chars pacify most enemies 06:21:04 shall i pastebin it, or would someone like the responsibility of having it in their inbox? =P 06:21:09 and it isn't like tomb is going to be easier 06:21:37 elliptic: fine, they want to develop some killings tools anyway then, I guess? 06:21:39 however, the 50% gamble argument is the first problem mentioned that I consider real (being unresourceful is explicitely something meant to be punished here, ninjas can pick another branch) 06:21:55 mikee_: pastebin it. I'll have to run shortly and won't be available until later tonight. 06:22:12 -!- FaMott has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:22:43 kilobyte: as I've said before, I'd be happier if Snake had something unique and interesting in it too... this doesn't need to happen before making hellspider, of course 06:22:44 elliptic: have you read up on my alternate proposal? 06:23:19 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:24:27 galehar, http://pastebin.com/s6ywHt7w 06:24:33 galehar: I glanced at it... I think probably learning from defenses won't work that well, unfortunately, since defenses either aren't very interesting (AC/EV/SH) or are easily swapped around (resistances) 06:24:38 galehar: not "from hell", which was explicitely mentioned already 06:24:57 (the idea comes from another of Linley Henzell's games) 06:25:43 also, it's a matter of letting the hellspider hit you or a summon just once 06:26:45 learning defenses is another strong reason to NOT fight, too 06:27:31 the more you don't attack her, the more she attacks you and learn. If you fight, she'll go away faster. 06:27:42 galehar, FYI i think pastebin screwed up some of the formatting going from .rtf 06:27:49 Isn't the Royal Jelly a nice precedent for a boss fight in Crawl? 06:28:10 or perhaps, to wear that shitty robe of rF you found somewhere, let it whack you a couple of times, then change to your regular plate of rC for the main fight 06:28:27 mikee_ / galehar : a minor comment on the writeup: ddbe and kown should probably be DDBe and KoWn, or we might even use words 06:28:36 dpeg: good point -- and an enemy you can't avoid too 06:28:46 yes, thanks. i have a bad habit with those abbreviations 06:29:09 kilobyte: you can do stuff like banish TRJ and use Shatter, but generally speaking, the TRJ has to be confronted. 06:29:22 If it makes people happier, perhaps pair Spider with Slime then? 06:29:41 could work 06:30:05 (sad bit about Jiyva, but there are ideas for a spider god, naturally :) 06:30:08 I thought banishing TRJ just meant you had to hunt him down in the abyss. 06:30:27 jle: I thought you could crack the walls open if you really wanted to 06:30:35 (never done this myself, so I could be wrong) 06:30:39 dpeg: you can, yes 06:30:39 Yeah, shatter or corruption works. 06:30:47 LRD or shatter or corruption 06:30:59 not really necessary to banish TRJ first for this 06:31:06 elliptic: yes, just an example 06:31:07 LRD needs pretty high power, but yeah 06:31:11 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:19 kilobyte: adapting speed scale with depth, so swapping resists doesn't work so well for the end fight. 06:31:32 -!- dpeg is now known as dpeg_afk 06:31:32 Oh, I thought you meant banishing by itself would open them up. Never mind. 06:32:51 galehar: also, this nearly completely drops Linley's ideas (upgrades are hard-won and stay) 06:33:32 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:48 kind of reeks of Hollywood's ideas of taking the name of some character and not giving it any properties known in the books the movie is supposedly based on 06:34:19 this is not a flaw for mechanics by itself, but if so, the monster shouldn't be named "Transdimensional Hellspider" 06:38:28 03kilobyte * rf96ec8db5397 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/dlua/lm_toll.lua: Drop another use of marker.desc_long. 06:38:36 03kilobyte * ra1c8ae846226 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/sprint/sprint_v.des: Remove an outdated comment from ZigSprint, id problems have been fixed. 06:38:36 03kilobyte * r9f1309d72495 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: s/sickness/nausea/ in the description of contam chunks. 06:48:39 dpeg_afk: fwiw, self-imposed challenges normally make an exception for actions absolutely required to win the game (e.g. allruning pacifists would be allowed to kill a monster if it were the only way to obtain a rune; and even then, they'd probably try to kill it indirectly to avoid dirtying their hands) 06:49:24 kilobyte: oh, and I think that with many species of spider, the difference between male and female is obvious (often the females are much larger) 06:49:31 but only once you've seen them both so you know what to look for 06:53:09 yeah, my point is that Crawl generally tries to refer to everything in neuter, including orcs and humans 06:53:37 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:07 galehar: interesting, you came to a proposal similar to mine independently :P 06:55:32 i think it's definitely a bad idea to force fighting the hellspider, the only fights we actually force are geryon and trj and they're in much, much harder branches 06:55:35 not a lair rune branch 07:03:51 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:19 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:27 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:51 the main contentious is the forced fight. All other design decisions depend on it. 07:17:11 Some think it's bad, other think it's good. There are good arguments for both. Not sure how to settle this. 07:17:35 *force fightS. Since there are 5 of them. 07:19:16 we all agree that forced fights are not intrinsicly bad. The problem is having it in the Lair branch roulette. 07:21:24 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:30:41 kilobyte: about spider gender, the females are often a lot bigger 07:30:46 -!- due has quit [Changing host] 07:30:46 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:09 i think forcing some combat is good, but forcing killing is bad 07:31:44 we currently don't really have enemies where you want to try to damage them even if it won't help you kill them 07:32:04 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:53 Eronarn: have you written your proposal? Where is it? 07:34:10 galehar: it was in irc, but i can summarize: the spider appears whenever you get into LOS of stairs; it tries to prevent you from going down the stairs (or getting the rune); hurt it enough and it backs off for a few turns; going down the stairs without having hurt it like that means that evading is one of your strengths so it gets more stuff like constriction or trample 07:35:21 er, LOS of down stairs 07:36:05 the spider appearing is an idea someone else had, but it's a good one. it should feel like it's stalking you 07:36:17 transdimensional aspect 07:37:00 re teleporting away: its transdimensional, so it could act as a teleport anchor. Blinks while in sight blink you towards the hellspider, teleports always land you close to it. 07:37:18 has absolutely nothing to do with linley's hellspider, though 07:38:21 gameplay is more important than reference. If the only thing in common is the name, it's fine. 07:38:33 re slime/spider instead of snake/spider: this would require completely redoing the monster set 07:38:54 It's a tribute, not a copy. 07:38:56 might be a good idea anyway, just a lot of work 07:39:36 alefury: the monster set doesn't have anything remotely resembling balance yet 07:39:36 slime/spider doesn't seem to be a very realistic proposal to me. 07:39:38 slime/spider also brings up the jiyva question 07:40:12 re "making it avoidable by diving means you never want to fight it": just give it a bigger upgrade when you avoid it than when you kill it, that way if you never kill it it will be super powerful by Spider:5 07:40:28 slime/spider? ewwww 07:40:39 slime is scary. Do we really want to have spiders that tough? 07:40:41 just generically horrible upgrades would work for this, like speed, damage, health 07:41:02 alefury: it'd be pretty hard to escape something that's faster than you, has blink close, and can trample... and to do it multiple times in a row 07:41:19 at some point if we want players to be able to avoid fights at all we need to start regarding that as what it is (a strength) 07:41:24 the idea of a twisted version of lair has often come up. using spiders twisted by magic or abyssal forces could be cool. 07:41:44 alefury: _what_ upgrade? This lets people avoid the spider learning what your best way of dealing damage is. 07:42:07 speed, damage, and health, all at once, instead of just a single upgrade geared to the way you killed it 07:42:33 health helps against (nearly) all kinds of killing it, speed makes it harder to avoid, damage makes it kill you 07:42:36 twisted lair could use some of forest and some nonspider hell animals 07:42:37 so it takes 10x damage from fire as it would take otherwise 07:42:57 im thinking speed +10 every time you avoid it 07:43:02 really really horrible upgrades 07:43:05 that you dont want, ever 07:43:15 move speed +10, not all speed +10, right 07:43:17 at least not more than maybe once 07:43:25 otherwise that would be a spoiler trap 07:43:29 +10 might be too much :) 07:43:57 but all speed +5 (along with other generic upgrades) and a warning message would be fine imo 07:44:06 kilobyte: i think it's pretty unrealistic for someone to be able to avoid the spider several times in a row 07:44:08 it's speed = 0 vs any other value 07:44:09 it adapting to your attacks is also a spoiler trap, and dying to learn is okay 07:44:25 you'd need multiple kinds of escape 07:44:32 like pacification and cblink and confusion... 07:44:37 Eronarn: darts of dispersal, or if the spider ever moves, summons 07:44:51 and it needs to move or you can kill it with any polearm or ranged spell 07:45:04 blink close and abjuration would help with summons 07:45:19 darts of dispersal do almost nothing nowadays since dispersal brand has to deal damage to do anything 07:45:29 have to go later 07:45:31 arrows of dispersal on the other hand... 07:45:33 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:43 requires investment 07:45:58 well, as i said, its transdimensional, so it could do weird stuff with teleports 07:46:06 like upgrade dispersal to blink close 07:46:12 :) 07:46:35 one problem with all this stuff is that someone would have to code it, and that there is no way to avoid every way of gaming the system 07:46:45 partially because gaming the system is supposed to be encouraged 07:47:27 vaguely encouraged, like a fe fighting something fire resistant, not ragdoll using a teleport trap and summons to clear zig sprint without leaving the first room 07:47:29 if it had blink close (jumping) + stasis field + high speed + trample + mass abjure, that would render it extremely difficult to escape from 07:47:41 and even if it only gets one upgrade per level, it can get all that by the end of spider 07:48:05 yeah, but then you can just kill it with fire... 07:48:17 on the other hand, thats probably okay 07:48:32 imo the scaling shouldnt be too strong 07:48:37 yeah, i don't see a problem with that... you had to use a bunch of escape resources to get to the bottom 07:48:47 the Spider:1 fight shouldnt be trivial 07:49:02 alefury: my idea for scaling is that it's damage that scales fastest, and that HP/EV/etc. don't scale much... but they START high 07:49:13 so that the first fight, it's a beefy tank, but has a hard time killing you 07:49:25 this gives players time to learn its routines 07:49:37 or get annoyed and tired when they have 07:50:01 HangedMan: well, high for lair, i mean 07:50:01 @??gastronok 07:50:01 Gastronok (04j) | Speed: 5 | HD: 20 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 2/1 | Damage: 40 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(80), 12drown | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 2131 | Sp: airstrike (0-50), slow, swiftness, small mammals, cantrip. 07:50:17 so the idea's that if you kill it, it becomes immune to the way you killed it, and if you escape it, it becomes immune to the way you escaped it? 07:50:21 i think gastronok is a good example of a similar fight 07:50:33 not immune, just gradually more resistant 07:50:38 you rarely want to stand next to him and hit, but he has a lot of HP, so you might have to go poison him, wait a bit, poison him again, wait a bit 07:51:00 (he has airstrike, so you have to keep breaking LOS to stay safe) 07:51:22 five fights would make it get really annoying if it was flat-out immunity, so a vm would at least get two fights cleared with regular poison and poison arrow 07:51:24 or such 07:51:43 i guess it would start out rP- 07:51:44 the fact that one side is speed 5 and the other is speed... 07:51:57 HangedMan: having escape be possible would really help with that, since everyone can escape at least once or twice 07:52:00 or just no rP, so you need poison arrow after one upgrade? 07:52:01 what's hellspider's intial speed going to be with all this? 07:52:30 i think 12 would be nice 07:52:45 one thing that people haven't seemed to talk about is that a lot of these cases are ridiculous to even consider 07:52:59 this makes it slower then regular spiders 07:52:59 what if someone goes after hellspider and they have fire and cblink and summons and pacify? well, they kill the hellspider 07:53:06 just like they'd slaughter any other lair branch 07:53:17 but it is a particularly large and fat spider so fine 07:53:28 HangedMan: it could also get a speed upgrade 07:53:36 naturally 07:53:43 who in the world has cblink ready for a lair branch 07:53:48 well, blink scrolls 07:53:59 semi-cblink happens quite a bit, too 07:54:00 but still, stuff like stasis field would take care of that 07:54:17 id prefer teleport anchor to stasis field 07:54:23 stasis field takes the edge off the obvious keeping curare as an option 07:54:25 its much cooler :) 07:54:32 unless it means the other form of stasis 07:54:48 TSOite kills hellspider in melee -> it gets umbra :D 07:54:49 teleport anchor or stasis field mean a forced fight you cannot escape from 07:54:56 kilobyte: ...no 07:55:05 not as a permanent stasis field. one it gets if you escape from it via tele 07:55:15 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:26 kilobyte: and this from you, who mentioned about 5 other ways to end the fight in the last hour 07:55:26 and there's lots of other escape mechanisms, which you're free to try, but then it starts to adapt to those too 07:55:28 silence style or halo style? 07:56:00 HangedMan: halo style, always on 07:56:07 ew 07:56:10 alefury: how exactly does a teleport end a fight? 07:56:14