00:02:35 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:21:16 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 00:50:31 atrodo (L16 FeCj) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,48) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 00:53:20 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:42 -!- ctair has joined ##crawl-dev 01:01:09 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-443-gbaaa34d (32) 01:05:32 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:51 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-443-gbaaa34d 01:11:18 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:39:17 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 01:43:32 -!- nfogravity has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:48:08 -!- GreatOrbOfEyes has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:51:04 -!- Dixbert has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:52:50 -!- Dixbert has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:02 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:03:20 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:41:24 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 03:16:02 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:49 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:41:52 -!- ctair has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 03:52:39 -!- GreatOrbOfEyes has joined ##crawl-dev 04:11:49 -!- GreatOrbOfEyes has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-426-g733b69e 06:24:04 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:34:07 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:28 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:01 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:07 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 07:09:15 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:33 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:55 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:58 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:09 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:44:57 if I do x = hash(&x, 4) % GXM; is there a risk that x doesn't change? (x is an int) 07:49:11 Make it x2 and compare them? 07:51:34 hmm. I can also run it for all possible values of x and see for myself :) 07:57:40 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:16 depends on the hash used, of course 08:01:09 ah, there's a 32 bit hash named literally hash() (and a few others by other names) 08:06:59 yes, I was thinking of using the one already in the code 08:07:55 that a... novel idea 08:08:02 s/that/that's/ 08:08:41 I want to use it for hatch destination. The current code often puts you in corners and against walls. 08:13:40 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:14:27 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:01 uh, this one may be not the best idea -- people will know the destination beforehand 08:17:27 unless there's some secret secure data point included in the hash 08:18:05 no, because the initial destination is random 08:18:33 but we can't make sure it's a valid one since the destination level isn't in memory (or hasn't been generated) 08:18:35 galehar, congrats on your high winrate in the tournament 08:18:41 thanks :) 08:20:00 kilobyte: the current code does a distance iterator from the initial random dest until it find a valid cell. 08:22:25 so if the initial destination is in the middle of nowhere, the player will end up against a wall. Which happens often, especially in orc. 08:22:39 -!- G-Flex has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:09 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 08:44:17 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:38 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:02:12 i added a bunch of mantis relations regarding band placement 09:02:30 i used 5412 as the starting point because it is the most general of the reports 09:02:57 should i resolve the (older) duplicates or just leave them open? 09:05:32 hm, ill just resolve them, way too many open duplicates otherwise 09:09:11 wow, plenty of band complaints 09:09:22 btw, i missed any duplicates that dont show up when searching for "band" or "wall", so there may be more 09:09:43 all that's left is one asking for vaults placing an explicit "band" to actually bloody place more then one member 09:09:48 its a pretty old issue, its explained in one of the older reports 09:10:22 only the main monster is placed explicitly, the rest is simply spread around, potentially seperated by walls, and potentially inside walls (inside walls is only possible in vaults i think) 09:10:33 fun 09:11:19 afaik vaults placing bands works, but sometimes members will spawn in walls 09:11:28 so it is not exactly encouraged 09:11:28 yeah, that makes sense 09:11:35 how come none of the issues is the one I explained the cause of this bug in? (I can't seem to find it myself, too) 09:11:49 i think its the one with the ziggurat entrance 09:11:51 because the vault grids are applied sequentially, they end up in walls placed after the band placement, I guess 09:12:03 thats only bisection, though 09:12:09 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:13 not wallmonsters 09:12:33 ah, and due explained it 09:12:36 the thing is, as the vault is placed, all squares go sequentially. "foo band" will spill to unused close spots, which are still floor. 09:12:54 heh yeah, didn't notice your line Zaba :p 09:13:08 and neither of us got around to fix it yet... 09:13:37 the band bisection issue is also not good, maybe they could be solved in one go? 09:14:18 there two are unrelated though 09:14:41 cant check for bisection before walls are actually placed, so not entirely unrelated 09:14:42 (except that if the band is placed before walls, knowing whether it's bisected is not possible yet) 09:14:46 yeah 09:15:08 bisection could be fixed by using a floodfill or something to find the spots 09:17:43 would it be hard to just put the walls before the monsters? 09:18:50 no, it'd just need two passes 09:19:15 hmm, actually, it's a bit more complex if there's more than one monster 09:19:34 also, random band monsters are often separated by walls too. I was thinking of adding a check to band member placement to make sure they can walk up to their leader. 09:19:56 MONS: tiamat band, bat; MAP; 12; ENDMAP 09:20:07 a draconian will be placed where the bat should be 09:21:10 kilobyte, they'd flow out outside the vault then 09:21:35 IIRC the bat will fail to place instead 09:21:45 (not sure though) 09:30:40 kilobyte, no, the bat does get placed 09:31:41 floodfill after wall placement sounds pretty reasonable. spilling out of the vault is needed for unique bands 09:32:21 alefury, yes, nobody is trying to remove the spilling 09:40:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:43:48 Zaba: also (unrelated), this: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3838 09:44:15 although i think you said connectivity is not your thing 09:45:38 yeah, that code is rather cryptic to me 09:46:37 there's an explanation for why vaults are opaque (by default) in dungeon.cc:857-890 09:46:55 it's been there since eternity, though 09:54:14 <|amethyst> Hm 09:55:31 <|amethyst> any potential problems with marking all the 1x1 vaults as transparent? 09:55:52 all the unique ones are already transparent 09:56:03 (that is, those placing unique monsters) 09:57:34 <|amethyst> yeah; there are also 1x1 vaults for cloud traps, branch entries, altars, shops, ... 09:57:35 crypt_curse_skull isn't 09:57:46 would be better to tag those transparent explicitly 09:57:50 statue_in_the_mist 09:57:59 <|amethyst> that's what I was thinking 09:57:59 or actually 09:58:19 <|amethyst> right now, if there's a cloud trap, you're guaranteed to be able to leave the level without stepping on or disarming it 09:58:20 it would indeed be better to just make it not required somehow 09:58:51 aren't cloud traps actual traps now, not vaults 09:59:07 or did they just get names and a not-a-tile 09:59:53 <|amethyst> they got their own type, but they're still placed by vaults 10:00:34 it'd also be a good idea to deduplicate the code in cloud trap definitions 10:01:29 or unify it with regular trap code 10:03:37 well.. you could say that about any use of vaults for not-really-vaults :P 10:03:57 crypt_curse_skull 10:05:16 <|amethyst> 1x1 vaults should be safe from the problems mentioned in dungeon.cc ; 2x1 or larger might not be (unless they're all-passable or all-impassable) 10:05:57 |amethyst, well, then it might make sense to make them implicitly transparent 10:06:37 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:16 another idea: what about three different vault types: passable, opaque, run-a-floodfill 10:11:46 <|amethyst> with "passable" for those that have walls etc that are removed by lua? 10:12:08 the problem mentioned in that big comment is only a quirk of the connectiveness check 10:12:15 |amethyst: yeah 10:12:42 it compares only the number of disconnected areas, which is never supposed to be enough 10:15:01 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:37 maybe -that- needs to be fixed 10:17:09 <|amethyst> yeah... then the default can be "run a flood fill", and only a vaults with lua tricks need to be marked transparent or opaque 10:24:47 Napkin: when you get a chance, could you change trunk to be the default option in CDO console again? thanks! 10:32:38 yeah, I noticed I'm playing a lame uncool version on D:10 10:33:11 pah 10:33:35 vaults with walls on their edge in slime can end up having staircases be generated next to walls 10:34:57 HangedMan: there's precisely 0 vaults in Slime 10:35:12 (not counting Dissolution and the final map, of course) 10:35:22 well yes I am trying to make vaults for slime 10:35:54 also that altar vault that's just a square with the altar in the middle can appear in slime 10:37:14 that's a bug then -- it will try to be placed in all inappropriate places that can spawn at that depth 10:38:12 NAME: basic_altar 10:38:12 CHANCE: 5% (Lair, Slime, Vault, Crypt) 10:38:37 ah, explicitely listed, that's ok then 10:39:51 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 10:40:37 said wip vaults in question: http://pastebin.com/KuZgMFJC 10:44:07 I wonder if it'd make sense to allow renamed lava 10:44:20 quite a bunch of messages to change, though 10:44:48 small chance of wondering why in the world is there a lava fish in this hyperacidic slime 10:45:03 or rather how does it survive as... you polymorphed it or something 10:45:40 good point 10:47:04 actually, can one polymorph anything into liquid-only creatures 10:49:13 <|amethyst> if it's on water, I think so... return (monster_habitable_grid(new_mclass, current_tile)); in _valid_morph 10:50:07 just polyed a harpy: -> raven, -> lava worm 10:50:37 hmm, so you could end up with a giant eyeball turning into a lava jerk 10:53:16 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:09 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:18 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:18 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:07 <|amethyst> hm... so I have a patch to make 1x1 vaults implicitly transparent, but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference to the number of hatches 11:01:17 <|amethyst> usually they seem to come from the placement of larger vaults 11:01:58 something about @s 11:02:16 nothing to do with @s 11:04:31 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:13 all @s do is make the vault get connected with corridors 11:05:28 which, in case the vault is considered opaque, have no impact on connectivity 11:05:36 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-443-gbaaa34d (32) 11:09:58 whats wrong with simply checking connectivity after vault placement? 11:10:23 and marking only vaults that change terrain after placement as non-transparent? 11:11:40 <|amethyst> it does that; it's just that it only goes by the number, not identity, of the connected components 11:11:53 so how is that a problem? 11:12:25 <|amethyst> see the example around dungeon.cc:870 11:12:30 if you do *all* the connectivity checking after the level is finished 11:12:40 <|amethyst> that would work, but 11:12:45 not just some safety check involving number of disconnected components 11:12:51 <|amethyst> if you find it's not connected, does that mean you redo the whole level? 11:12:57 <|amethyst> rather than just retrying the vaults? 11:12:59 then you can place hatches 11:13:32 but yeah, i can see how that might be bad 11:13:43 maybe check twice 11:13:47 |amethyst, at the moment it redoes the whole level if a vault happens to break connectivity 11:13:55 <|amethyst> oh, that's right 11:14:15 <|amethyst> I knew it happened if ruination breaks connectivity 11:14:32 check once, redo level if not connected, place vaults, do the full connectivity check again, place hatches in disconnected areas 11:15:16 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:15:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:15:42 (this would be faster than completely rebuilding the level and avoid the problem mentioned in dungeon.cc) 11:17:31 slower whenever connectivity wasnt broken i guess 11:19:21 -!- PoopBridge has quit [Quit: Ømega script v0.9.7 :: http://omega.neeq.net/ :: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me !"] 11:21:00 maybe i should worry less about this, i dont even know what definition of connectivity crawl uses 11:21:17 i would probably use "must be able to reach a downstairs from every upstairs, and must be able to reach some kind of stairs from every point" 11:23:59 <|amethyst> more like "every disconnected region must contain a stair" and "some downstairs must be connected to upstair I" 11:24:34 ah, numbering the upstairs is better, and explains why i have never heard about some weird things that could happen with my definition 11:24:55 also my definition doesnt handle branch entrances, connecting them to upstair I makes sense 11:27:04 that definition allows for completely disonnected dungeon parts, though (as frequently seen in orc). it guarantees access to all branch ends, though, which is enough. 11:27:59 <|amethyst> there are some more rules than those for interlevel stuff 11:28:11 <|amethyst> e.g. orc 11:30:13 there frequently are parts of orc and slime that cant be reached without dig or teleport 11:31:00 which is a little weird imo, but not a real problem as long as you cant get trapped and can always reach the end (which you can in my experience) 11:31:13 yes, such parts always have hatches 11:35:26 or stone stairs that can reach to another identical disconnected room 11:35:47 hatches can do that as well, of course 11:36:15 <|amethyst> # Transmuting into tiny pieces is Conj not Tmut. 11:36:20 <|amethyst> what abount sandblast then? 11:37:39 i dont really see how disintegrate is conj anyway 11:37:42 you dont conjure anything 11:37:47 imo its a hex :) 11:38:15 that, or a transmutation 11:38:49 making it show up with conj instead of hex/tmut in greps is probably good, though 11:39:28 as long as its not player-castable 11:39:39 stupid great orbs of eyes 11:39:53 whats stupid about them? 11:40:36 btw, is there going to be a tourney recap? 11:40:58 there was one last time 11:42:07 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:31 alefury: we should brag about the increase in players, yes 11:54:23 :) 11:56:12 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:56:58 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:48 alefury -- you conjure energy to blow shit up 11:58:09 when i cast disintegration thats not what i do :P 11:58:45 disintegration does that on an atomic level! it's not a focused reconstruction like tmut 11:59:01 -!- Zappman123 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:59:17 I assume/hope that's what kilobyte meant, yes... it isn't really transmutation, just blowing something up with raw energy 11:59:17 03elliptic * rdb326ebe0465 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Eliminate wrath dilution. 11:59:25 note also that disint requires line of fire 11:59:29 elliptic: why does it check MR? 11:59:51 Hello, I require the help of an admin. Are there any ones available at the moment? 12:00:05 Napkin: ^^ 12:00:18 also elliptic i watched your last game, really really nice ninja 12:00:24 alefury: that's a good question though, might make more sense as a hex 12:00:27 if he doesnt react, hes not around, but he reads the backlog 12:00:28 <|amethyst> Zappman123 needs to make a webtiles save available for bug reporting 12:00:28 nfogravity: thanks 12:01:07 nfogravity: the part where I didn't notice I was confused and ended up teleporting back into the zot vault wasn't so good :P 12:01:31 i think of hexes as being more like things that bind to the energy that you have. they feed on something that has an existence in itself and modify it, same with charms 12:02:07 <|amethyst> I think of hexes as being mind-affecting, but there are some exceptions 12:02:50 <|amethyst> I guess more exceptions than examples, never mind 12:02:58 regarding arcane marksman, i really don't think it's not in the flavour of charms to be able to hex an arrow 12:03:11 er, not in the flavour of hexes 12:03:36 nfogravity: AM is definitely open to adding a new spell or two 12:03:49 the problem is coming up with a good one 12:03:53 did you read my ranged combat proposal? 12:03:59 no, where is it? 12:04:02 returning brand 12:04:21 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:rc#ranged_overhaul_for_11 12:04:37 kilobyte and others offered a lot of good comments 12:04:48 why is it that i like ranged combat in adom but not in crawl? 12:05:05 i think it might just be an interface reason 12:05:23 i've tried playing a bunch of ranged to figure out why it isn't fun 12:05:32 nfogravity: infinite ammo is really not good 12:05:38 the ammo management and the mulching, etc. 12:05:49 the targeting could be a lot better too 12:05:58 why not, elliptic? 12:06:11 elliptic: would probably make it more fun, though. could lower damage from infini-arrows to compensate. 12:06:11 past early game you have virtually infinite ammo anyway 12:06:11 it makes it completely costless for any melee guy to wander around holding a bow and shoot arrows at anything while waiting it to get to melee range 12:06:16 lowering damage doesn't help 12:06:30 you can already do that with darts 12:06:49 it is already a problem, yes 12:06:51 people already can do that, elliptic. they just don't 12:06:56 yes they do :P 12:07:05 it's something that (is and) would be balanced solely by annoyance 12:07:11 between darts, stones, clubs and spears, theres usually enough throwable stuff to do this already 12:07:20 which is too much of a trend already 12:07:28 balancing by annoyance is not good, right? 12:07:34 i think it's horrible 12:07:35 alefury: darts are very weak and the other stuff weighs a lot 12:08:09 like I said, costless aside from a single slot for a launcher and the weight of that 12:08:11 not good 12:08:21 the weight and inventory slots are not a huge issue early on. im not saying carry 20 spears, maybe 3 or so and use darts to fill in the blanks. 12:08:53 unless it actually takes skill to use a bow. the damage output from ordinary stones is super low 12:09:22 finite resources are good. I don't think ammo existing is a problem if it all stacks 12:09:24 elliptic: counterexample: magic dart for characters that dont spam higher level conjurations. 12:09:35 and it's pretty reasonable to be able to huck pebbles at monsters until they come into range 12:09:35 if there is too much ammo, that can be reduced 12:09:41 alefury: it costs MP 12:09:48 hopefully you have something better you can do with your mp 12:09:48 what part of costless do you not understand 12:09:49 not an issue if you dont cast spammy spells 12:10:09 also a spell slot and can't be used in heavy armour without serious skill investment 12:10:24 for the average HESk its free 12:10:39 ... 12:10:43 also you get like 7 of these max vs. anything that's not slow and thus pointless to kill 12:10:58 probably you would want to spend some of those 7 turns casting a buff or something 12:11:11 mikee_: same for free arrows 12:11:18 whereas a MiFi has nothing else to do with turns 12:11:48 and has a shitton of carrying capacity by virtue of being an mifi 12:11:51 so it's a nonissue for him anyway 12:12:09 nfogravity: I've run out of stones using a sling on everything 12:12:15 ammo isn't infinite currently and this is good 12:12:27 what if arrows or w/e did absolutely nothing without weapon skill 12:12:47 elliptic: it is not purely good, there are good sides and bad sides. 12:12:48 mikee_: that would help, though it is a bit strange 12:12:58 it could be less than absolute 12:13:18 we could have ranged weapons have horrible accuracy penalties at very low skill 12:13:22 hitting things with a bow is hard. maybe tie it to hit rate instead of damage? 12:13:30 i was thinking of hit rate, yes 12:13:38 seriously, try shooting a bow. its hard 12:13:44 why are we gimping ranged to make it more fun again? 12:13:54 if you are making launchers this horrible at low skill then how are AM or Hu supposed to be any good 12:14:04 st_: so we can give players infinite free +0 arrows 12:14:15 some other qualifier, maybe 12:14:26 personally I'm fine with the way ranged combat is 12:14:48 elliptic: accuracy could be the same as now at 5 skill or so. also they could start with some decent arrows (that always mulch) 12:15:03 giving them some +5 arrows should let them hit stuff 12:15:12 +5 might be a bit much i guess 12:15:14 having invisible +0 arrows and also non-invisible +5 arrows sounds really weird to me 12:15:43 yeah, i think we should remove ammo enchantment entirely (which was also casmith's ideas) 12:15:44 elliptic: thats what the proposal is about, really. branded arrows are finite and always mulch, crappy arrows are infinite. 12:16:00 also, everyone becomes nessos 12:16:01 hm also i like ranged in doomrl, despite a 100% mulch rate there 12:16:02 in favour of, yeah, what you say 12:16:20 i think those are the main points 12:16:33 maybe ammo should always mulch, but there should be a fuckton of it 12:16:55 Forgive my uninformed question, but is it currently possible to play ranged without any use of melee at all (or perhaps, rather the investing in any melee skills)? 12:16:56 that just means lots of going back and forth to get more arrows that you couldnt carry 12:16:59 just remove ammo enchantment entirely. I've never heard of anyone who uses autopickup complain about picking it up, just about having too many different types 12:17:24 they could be weightless or almost weightless then 12:18:05 what if 12:18:23 elliptic: to me, its annoying but not complain-worthy 12:18:34 arrows always mulch, they abound on the ground, and are tracked like gold 12:18:35 i tolerate it, but i dont like it 12:18:44 you pick up 55 arrows your arrow count goes up by 55 12:18:47 mmm like gold 12:18:52 and when you wield a bow you get bow (713) 12:19:27 still has the mifi problem but sounds better 12:19:37 elliptic: the more annoying part is enemy shooters, they clutter the floor with crap i dont need 12:19:59 mikee_: why would a mifi not train a ranged weapon? 12:20:09 alefury: shield 12:20:17 why would a mifi use a shield? 12:20:18 because he has other things to do or doesn't like ranged combat 12:20:27 i have never once trained a ranged weapon, for example 12:20:27 alefury: uh, they start with one and shield skill 12:20:36 and i have played plenty of melee 12:20:36 and yeah, plenty of other stuff to train 12:20:45 well, early on its fine, not a lot of early 2h weapons 12:20:48 well, not like fi's shield is very useful anyway 12:21:11 i don't know the game as well as you guys, but it seems to me that the core principle of balance involves WHEN you can train your relevant skills, right? 12:21:12 weapon skill, fighting, armour, dodging, evocations 12:21:18 mikee_: i usually avoid it too, because swapping is annoying 12:21:24 possibly invo 12:21:24 even with ' 12:21:27 if there were really 0 annoyance for ranged.... i might train it 12:21:28 nfogravity: I have no idea what the core principle of balance is :P 12:21:33 maybe not, but maybe so 12:21:45 how about 'a' core principle 12:22:30 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:22:35 i think the core principle of crawl balance is "if it doesnt break the game, every dev can mostly do whatever he wants (within reason), using their own core principle of balance" 12:22:39 if you have to train 6 points of bows before you can do enough damage for it to be meaningful, that's 6 points away from other stuff. and if we weight hunter/am starting skills strongly in that direction 12:22:49 <|amethyst> I thought it was "Nerf or nothing" 12:23:08 there isn't 0 annoyance for any combat option and there never will be 12:23:32 |amethyst: the classic response to that is "but we gave +2 starting HP!" 12:23:33 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:23:40 +3 actually :P 12:23:41 then we strongly reward ranged characters for continuing with range, and strongly discourage non-ranged characters from picking it up unless they're willing to put a lot of effort into it 12:24:01 which necessarily makes them less effective at the other shit they wanted to do 12:24:05 6 skill is very little investment after early game, fyi 12:24:12 oh right. and that compensates for just about every other nerf in the last 2 versions. (im entirely serious) 12:24:15 and starting a char with 6 skill in something is a bit weird 12:24:35 i understand. i'm not saying start with 6 12:24:44 but look at how, say, FE often plays now 12:24:51 "if you have to train 6 points of bows before you can do enough damage for it to be meaningful" 12:25:02 st_, what do you mean? 12:25:03 starting AM should be able to do meaningful damage 12:25:10 doesn't tabbing with some melee weapon involve 0 annoyance 12:25:20 no, because item destruction 12:25:22 level 1 monsters don't take meaningful damage to die 12:25:23 sometimes theres a bush and you cant tab 12:25:46 Zappman123: did someone help you? 12:25:54 and if you train just bows through d1 you should be able to be a bowman by d2 12:25:58 Napkin: No,not yet 12:26:09 Napkin: he needs someone to look at his webtiles save since apparently he has a missing branch 12:26:10 if you have a starting bump from your class 12:27:52 as for later, we make damage ramp up over increasing skill. yeah in the late midgame as an mifi you have skill points to spare to get a bow working, but is it worth it to do a few damage to these high-ac monsters before you have to swap back? 12:29:03 nfogravity: currently damage already ramps up over increasing skill :P 12:29:16 also delay 12:29:24 exactly, we'd just have to figure out how to balance those numbers 12:29:33 they are already sort of balanced though 12:29:57 so why doesn't every mifi use bows in the lategame, given that skillpoints are pretty flexible for them? 12:30:02 removing ammo enchantment would mean they arent anymore 12:30:05 because crossbows are better 12:30:11 or crossbows :V 12:30:25 because people like shields, and because swapping is annoying 12:30:41 I don't like the idea of explicit numbers of investment required because I thought magic numbers were being phased out 12:30:42 also, they dont need it, wands are fine for the few situations that absolutely require ranged combat 12:30:48 ok 12:31:06 those aren't hard-and-fast numbers, hangedman 12:31:09 what's your account name, what version of crawl, Zappman123? 12:31:13 yes, later on people are strong enough that they can usually do whatever they want... no need to optimize every aspect of play 12:31:28 Napkin: Account is Zappman123 and Im playing 0.10 12:31:37 I'm much more concerned about early game (like lair and before) 12:31:45 save your game, please, Zappman123 12:31:54 Napkin: Done 12:32:07 since there every little bit matters and ammo is scarce and this works decently currently 12:32:11 understood, elliptic. i do like the tracking basic ammo like gold idea 12:32:29 I don't think this is necessary if basic ammo all stacks 12:32:50 ok, Zappman123, done 12:33:04 it's really tedious, elliptic. and it very harshly penalizes low-str characters 12:33:04 Napkin: Do I still have to file a bug report? 12:33:18 using slings as a HaEE, as i found out, is a miserable thing 12:33:23 nfogravity: what part of it is tedious? I'm confused 12:33:39 low-strength chars are supposed to have low carrying capacity 12:34:22 a few reasons 12:34:30 like, it is good if Strength actually *does* something 12:34:32 ME3 does a neat thing with weight/carrying capacity btw. not relevant at all to crawl, unfortunately. :/ 12:34:45 str already does do something, elliptic 12:34:56 right now it strongly augments launcher damage 12:34:58 prevent you from dying? 12:35:07 nfogravity: yes, and it means you have to decide whether to carry 150 sling bullets 12:35:16 please do, Zappman123 - unless someone in here said he took care of it already. otherwise it won't get fixed. here is your save: https://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/Zappman123-fa280cc-120312-1833.cs - you can't load it, but the devs can. mention it in your bug-report, please. 12:35:47 nfogravity: I'd still like to hear the "a few reasons" why early-game launcher use is tedious 12:35:51 i don't see why high-strength characters should have that be a nonissue 12:35:56 Napkin: Ok, thank you for your assistance 12:36:02 Zappman123: you will probably get a fixed save once someone looks at it (if its broken and fixable) 12:36:12 I've run out of carrying capacity on str 20+ chars too 12:36:27 (usually because of javelins) 12:36:29 or well, not sure if that would work with an online game 12:36:59 alefury: Where would I get the fixed save from? 12:37:27 it's tedious because when you're autoexploring, every time you see something your eyes have to go to the console, right? so you're processing every time you pick up a +0 arrow. it's the same reason henzell makes ##crawl difficult to read 12:37:45 nfogravity: mostly swapping, and that ammo is not free (cf. your argument why a minimum cost for spells is bad: you actually have to think about wheter to use ranged combat for every single enemy) 12:37:48 henzell makes ##crawl difficult to read? :P 12:37:54 also, this was directed at elliptic 12:37:58 sure you can just scroll past it, but picking up lots of ammo vastly decreases the signal to noise ratio 12:38:23 Zappman123: right, thats why im not sure if that would work for an online game. for broken local games it usually gets attached to the mantis issue. 12:38:31 kilobyte, are you in? Zappman123 is missing a branch in his save.. or something like that. 12:38:47 elliptic: do you know the command to "fix" that if possible? 12:39:17 i think so, elliptic. it's very difficult to have a conversation in crawl like the one we're having here (not just because of henzell, of course, but that's an example of why) 12:39:26 nfogravity: how about an option to not stop on picking up ammo then? This was the case in some trunk version at one time 12:39:43 gold did or does it too 12:39:56 you already can, can't you? 12:40:07 there's a whole bunch of explore_stop settings, at least 12:40:17 alefury: well, nothing in this proposal helps with swapping, which I agree is annoying... you have a point about having to think about whether to use it, but I think that is better than never having to think about whether to use it 12:40:28 st_: that sounds reasonable, if it isn't already possible 12:40:50 greedy_pickup_smart: Similar to greedy_pickup, but tries to be 12:40:50 smart about it, meaning only stopping for items which aren't 12:40:50 similar to any you already have in your inventory. 12:40:53 Napkin: I don't know, but I'll take a look at the save to see whether it is actually missing a branch 12:41:02 that looks like it'd do the trick 12:41:07 <|amethyst> elliptic: I can't find the elf stairs 12:41:08 you have that one off in your rc file, marvin 12:41:11 ok, cool, i posted the link 12:41:12 do you remember why? 12:41:13 <|amethyst> even with wizard mapping 12:41:22 i like stopping whenever i pick something up, personally 12:41:28 i agree with nfogravity about Henzell btw. the botspam is very annoying. i really wish the learndb and !lg were on non-spammy bots. 12:41:29 elliptic: https://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/Zappman123-fa280cc-120312-1833.cs 12:41:35 plus i don't use ranged combat 12:41:42 exactly 12:42:05 i like stopping too, and i wouldn't mind it at all if i stopped every time i picked up a stash of arrows 12:42:13 and removing ammo enchantment still sounds like the best improvement to me 12:42:15 because that's useful information 12:42:17 for swapping, we could use something like Angband? 12:42:30 announcing stuff is useful, but i usually don't need it. maybe seperating all the non-learndb bot stuff into another channel would be good 12:42:31 best/simplest 12:42:43 !lg too 12:42:43 No games for too. 12:42:54 thanks Sequell 12:43:23 not sure about !lg actually, its no worse than people like me writing in short lines, really. 12:43:31 |amethyst: going upstairs from elf:1 suggests that the stairs are missing, yeah 12:43:37 I don't know how to fix this though 12:44:00 there is a command to edit terrain, i never used it, though 12:44:24 i mean, elliptic, why is gold weightless? 12:44:33 surely it's not. it's quite heavy actually 12:44:39 <|amethyst> I know how to add it in wizmode, but then the save is a wizmode save 12:44:41 nfogravity, alefury: if spam from the bots on ##crawl bothers you, filter it out to a different location with your IRC client 12:44:53 I can't get it to let me report the bug =( 12:45:05 that spam is very conveniently placed when people are actually talking about server games on ##crawl 12:45:06 <|amethyst> Zappman123: you just need to include the link in the bug report 12:45:08 nfogravity: crawl plays in an alternate future, so it just gets saved on your credit check. the dungeon is actually a game show. 12:45:10 which is actually the main thing people do there... 12:45:12 <|amethyst> Zappman123: devs can get it 12:45:27 nfogravity: I haven't said anything about realism here 12:45:37 so don't try to imply I have, please 12:45:38 elliptic: youre assuming that everyone uses irssi? 12:45:44 right, which is fine. i don't really have a problem with it and mostly use ##crawl for henzell 12:45:49 but when i play crawl 12:46:04 or another irc client that is actually good and free (hint: im not) 12:46:16 i need as much on the console to be useful as possible 12:46:21 alefury: well, consider it motivation to switch to a better irc client :P 12:46:28 well if you're not using an irc client that is good and free then uh, why not? 12:46:34 heh 12:46:47 elliptic: all the free windows irc clients suck :( 12:46:50 so i guess that's the question then, elliptic 12:46:57 nfogravity: as people have said, you can make autoexplore not stop on ammo... I'm also open to the idea of making all ammo automulch 12:47:06 kvirc is pretty good 12:47:12