00:01:38 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-338-g6337f06 (32) 00:09:04 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-338-g6337f06 00:10:25 -!- greatzebu has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:16:57 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 00:27:57 Yermak (L22 HEEE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (Shoals:2) 01:18:40 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:25:35 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:28:29 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:28:29 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 01:33:20 -!- psch has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35:58 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 01:45:18 Ctrl- reporting error messages (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5387) by 232 02:03:36 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:21:03 -!- nfogravity has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:50:53 -!- DarkMatt has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]] 02:57:21 Shock the Eclecticist (L19 HEIE) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 942 failed on turn 47247. (D:23) 03:10:15 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-338-g6337f06 (32) 03:13:04 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:21:20 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:19 edlothiol, are you in? 03:56:24 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37:53 Cross/antitraining * not shown (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5388) by 232 04:44:35 Napkin: I am now 04:45:20 Synoecium (L13 OpSu) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (Lair:8) 04:50:40 Napkin: CDO feels laggy with 14 people playing. although ping is fine with ~40ms. something hogging the cpu or is it just me? 04:52:32 bhaak: 04:52:35 $> ps -ef | grep "bin/crawl" | grep -v grep | wc -l 04:52:35 67 04:52:47 oh, i forgot the webtiles 04:53:06 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 04:53:07 /2, because of 2 threads per game 04:53:17 but yeah, webtiles is using a lot since 0.10 04:55:30 i demand top priorities for tty players! :-) 04:58:16 Napkin: are they using much more than in 0.9? I didn't expect that 04:58:27 yes, they do, edlothiol 05:00:08 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-338-g6337f06 05:28:38 Pacification does not end constriction (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5389) by magistern 06:12:20 Napkin / edlothiol: you might be aware of this, but there is something strange with some games showing up multiple times in the webtiles lobby... for instance, Eldray is there three times currently 06:16:11 elliptic: yeah, I see it 06:16:54 Napkin: can you check if there are actually multiple processes for Eldray? 06:18:10 one process, one inprogress/ttyrec file, one socket 06:18:28 look ok from here 06:18:59 ok 06:23:10 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:39 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:03 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:27:03 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 06:33:35 03edlothiol * r9f1a28ba4e52 10/crawl-ref/source/tileweb.cc: Webtiles: Handle the "no buffer space available" error. 06:37:21 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:36 holy shit omndra :( 06:46:24 i also disagree with the removal of MD and would like to request all of my reported bugs to be unfixed 06:54:26 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:59 * due breaks mikee's bugs 06:57:11 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 06:59:04 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:04:20 mikee_: the removal of water is unforgivable, I demand my vaults be removed from mcrawl. 07:13:50 * kilobyte removes water from st_'s body (and that's 80% of human's mass). 07:15:18 Flora variety (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5390) by galehar 07:56:23 does anyone have an idea what KILL_RESET and KILL_DISMISSED are for? Shouldn't we use one of them for slime merging? 07:58:23 also, I wonder if there's any real functional difference between the 2. Doesn't seem so. 07:59:19 it doesn't seem like it to me, i think i looked at them a little bit when i was messing with some banishment-related stuff and i couldn't figure out the difference at least :P 08:03:07 problem is, if merging the 2 creates a bug, it will be probably very hard to notice 08:03:10 thought: we should have a tloc/hex spell that turns the area around you into hexes 08:03:32 this would actually be an interesting gameplay effect (less monsters can get adjacent) 08:04:21 galehar: my guess is that they used to do something different and don't now 08:19:32 galehar: there might be a difference between the two for conjure ball lightning timing out, I forget 08:20:57 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:38:26 -!- gal_bolle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:44:04 -!- cosh has quit [] 08:46:26 03zaba * rbab704e9e571 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Let _connect_spotty work in Slime. 08:46:27 03zaba * rb801a9201580 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Connect vaults in _build_vault_impl. 08:46:27 03zaba * r42b4ac43ebf3 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Use _build_secondary_vault, not dgn_place_map, in _place_uniques. 08:46:46 03zaba * rd7872c7902c3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/rooms.des: Remove ineffectual checks for Lair in special room definitions. 08:49:06 So is modern crawl way more resource-intensive than it used to be or is it just me? 08:50:05 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:55 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:10 abyss is. no idea about the rest. 09:02:25 03edlothiol 07stone_soup-0.10 * r0b0871ed8368 10/crawl-ref/source/tileweb.cc: Webtiles: Handle the "no buffer space available" error. 09:03:35 for the Abyss, I guess increasing abyss_depth every turn but not actually recalculating the grid except for once per, say, 50 turns, should take care of the Time Step problem 09:03:51 no obvious way to speed up normal play, though 09:05:09 *nodnods* It could just be the number of games as opposed to anything about the individual games, but it seems like the games are using more resources than they used to 09:05:20 Could also be configuration issues on my side, though 09:05:39 rax, do i recall correctly that for 0.10 you forgot to set the delays to -1 by default? 09:06:08 <|amethyst> I think Napkin was seeing the same thing, but he was blaming webtiles 09:06:57 rwbarton: Yes, although I force-changed that recently. 09:07:13 It's possible that makes that much of a difference, I guess. 09:07:57 I would feel more confident in my assessment if the machine weren't such a mess, but it might be interesting to put together some sort of benchmarking. 09:07:58 i do see the same, rax 09:08:34 and hi! :) 09:08:41 I can probably solve the problem with new hardware, unless it's really that bad; the machine I'm looking at wouldn't have that many more GHz but would have eight cores instead of two, and I could give CAO alone like 8GB of RAM 09:08:50 hi Napkin! :) 09:09:58 i currently have 2.8ghz cores, 4 of them, each with 2 threads - and the games are lagging it quite harshly (load up to 9.x) sometimes 09:10:14 Mostly I am worried about tournament-level load --- both times I've had a strict-machine kernel breakdown has been during heavy tournament load on a recent version. Even increasing the processing power, if I install webtiles and start getting >100 players, I'm not sure if more processors will be enough 09:10:20 eeeeeeeeeeeesh 09:10:22 yeah that's what I'm afraid of ;) 09:10:31 Napkin: how many of those 100% CPU stuck ones do you typically have? 09:10:38 Napkin: or is it mostly webtiles? 09:10:42 not too many 100% 09:11:02 but some seem to take between 75% and 90% once in a while 09:11:34 if 5-6 games do that at once.. and i dare to run a maintenance cronjob... laaaag & load ;) 09:12:02 tremulous' community complaining about unusual lag-spikes, too ;) 09:12:51 those high cpu usage seem to be mostly webtiles 09:13:12 but seriously, i'd appreciate it, if you would look at it also 09:13:26 log in at the evening and run top -u dgl 09:15:25 I was so happy upon speeding up monster AI by 20% recently... while the webtiles thing is more like a matter of an order of magnitude or two. 09:16:55 something is terribly wrong, redrawing screen is supposed to take 80x70 x constant time, no more. 09:17:17 (and that assuming the minimal has to slowly process every cell every time, which I guess it does not) 09:17:54 there's a bug that the play area doesn't process more than a 17x17 square too, so that's a further limit 09:18:02 yeah, it doesn't 09:19:03 that bug is caused by the cells outside that square being processed to early though 09:19:09 *too 09:19:30 so I don't know if it will be fixable in 0.10 09:20:59 i am quite positive about "it" being fixable 09:21:10 you guys have always fixed it in the past :) 09:24:38 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-343-gd7872c7 (32) 09:31:47 kilobyte: damage_friendly and damage_total are saved but not restored. Oversight? 09:33:29 er, what? How come they don't break save compat then? 09:34:04 the values are unmarshalled but dropped 09:34:25 rax: speaking of fixing things, do you have time to fix a couple issues with the CAO scoring pages (http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/overview.html)? 09:35:32 ... 09:36:28 hand me a brown paper bag, please 09:36:53 * galehar hands a brown paper bag to kilobyte 09:41:14 no one has noticed it for the past 1 year and 4 months, so it's not that bad ;) 09:42:50 hard to abuse it, you'd have to beat a monster to near death with traps/etc, then reset the counters so you can finish it yourself for full xp 09:43:16 kilobyte: I don't know that code well but I could take a look. What are the issues? 09:43:49 i think cdo's 0.10 are not shown at all at the moment, rax 09:43:55 elliptic, what else is missing? 09:44:38 Sicomoro (L2 KoBe) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (D:1) 09:44:42 rax: I actually sent greensnark a pull request a week ago with fixes, but he hasn't been around I guess 09:44:55 https://github.com/greensnark/dcss_scoring/pull/1 09:45:10 kilobyte: yeah, sumoner's gameplay is tedious enough. Ony crazy people would abuse this bug. 09:45:24 I don't know how easy it is for you to grab those fixes, but the main one (missing CDO 0.10 games) is simple to fix at least 09:46:16 (the other issues are things with morgue links being incorrect or missing in some cases) 09:49:53 the main one should be easy 09:50:03 I could probably issue the pull request if I could find where the scoring scripts live :P 09:50:12 I think they're in his homedir 09:50:20 i bet in his ho.. well :) 09:51:33 it claims to be up to date when I do a git pull though 09:51:58 it's probably only "pulling" from greensnarks remote 09:52:12 want me to guide you? 09:54:56 Sure 09:55:10 ok, so first you need to add elliptic's remote: 09:55:10 What should I do? 09:55:24 git remote add elliptic git://github.com/elliptic/dcss_scoring.git 09:55:35 then you need to load the stuff 09:55:41 git fetch elliptic 09:55:51 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:56:15 now, you could either take over all his additional changes, or rather "cherry"-pick the 4 changes he suggested in that pull-request: 09:56:26 *nodnods* Did those two 09:57:05 git cherry-pick abb7400 09:57:11 git cherry-pick 0aa644e 09:57:21 git cherry-pick 3f3f23a 09:57:29 git cherry-pick a654a83 09:57:30 --- 09:57:59 cherry-pick get's the changes (in form of a patch) and tries to apply them. did that work without complaints? 09:58:00 *gets 09:58:14 Yup, appears to have worked. :) 09:58:22 then you're done already :) 09:58:33 you could push those changes to greensnark's remote if you like 09:58:43 just a "git push" should be enough 09:59:05 but they are already in your current working directory, so you don't have to 09:59:24 git push gives me errors 09:59:38 I think because I am not greensnark :) 09:59:45 But I am not super worried, if things are right on this side 09:59:45 Napkin: thanks for the help, I'm not good enough with git to give instructions for anything slightly complicated like this :) 09:59:48 ah, could be key-fordwarding, etc 10:00:04 I should run the one-off refresh script then, and then the automated changes should take afterward? 10:00:29 i hope so - here i am at a loss now, not knowing how those scripts work ;) 10:00:47 rax: you should just be able to start the scripts now with "python scoresd.py" 10:01:04 no need for the one-off update 10:01:06 that's probably already running as background process, right? 10:01:11 okay, done! 10:01:17 It was not running, I suspect because it got updated 10:01:19 Oh actually 10:01:24 Probably because the machine restarted 10:01:26 *adds to notes* 10:01:31 it wasn't restarted after CAO went down, yeah 10:01:46 Should be up now though 10:01:49 great :) 10:02:02 Thanks for the help! :) 10:02:31 any time :) 10:02:46 <3 git! 10:02:47 :D 10:02:49 rax: thanks, hopefully it will look correct now once it finishes the first update :) 10:02:58 *fnigers crossed* 10:03:10 there is some chance that it might need to be started from a clean slate, I guess 10:07:07 as always ;) 10:11:37 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:36 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:12:39 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 10:13:58 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:22:26 akaean the Markscentaur (L14 CeHu) ASSERT(branch != NUM_BRANCHES && depth != -1) in 'travel.cc' at line 2983 failed on turn 44281. (D:15) 10:48:46 03galehar * r8e099b8fce86 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Properly restore damage_friendly and damage_total. 10:48:46 03galehar * rf6d4d503c71a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Don't give XP when wounded slime creatures merge (#5368). 10:48:46 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.10 * r3ba92a42f462 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Don't give XP when wounded slime creatures merge (#5368). 10:48:46 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.10 * rfa280cc8ca00 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Properly restore damage_friendly and damage_total. 11:00:59 the 'where' field on cdo console seems to not update 11:02:32 shows the location of a previous game for elynae for example 11:02:36 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:41 Napkin: see jeanjacques' comment^^ seems maybe related to what I was noticing earlier with some people showing up twice... 11:11:42 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20111108220737]] 11:36:59 Napkin: do you know whether user 'laan' is one of the users who often uses a lot of CPU? 11:40:17 -!- ncampion has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:01 -!- gal_bolle has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:28 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:47 Evenings! Statistics finally have the nice, sharp tournament peaks. Thanks! 11:55:54 i don't think so, elliptic - since webtiles lobby doesn't use the dglwhere file anymore, which is created by the inotify daemon, which wasn't running anymore, hence the outdated info in console 11:56:15 not sure about player "laan", not that i remember 11:56:18 dpeg! :D 11:57:14 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: reboot] 11:57:48 oooh, BAMM-spike :D 11:58:07 oh, that spike is incorrect 11:58:10 I think 11:58:16 BAMM? 11:58:26 oh, maybe not 11:58:29 hm 11:59:08 Marmorstein und Eisen bricht, BAMM BAMM, BAMM BAMM 12:03:41 so the scoring scripts seem to have updated fine for the most part, and the server activity page does look right... but player pages didn't update 12:03:59 what's more, looks like player pages haven't updated since Feb 23... 12:06:38 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:46 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:05 oh, good, they updated now 12:12:17 at least some of them... presumably it is just being slow to get through all of them 12:13:03 -!- nfogravity has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:46 elliptic: can you estimate how many player records are being kept? 12:15:53 kept? 12:15:57 stored 12:16:24 you mean everyone who has ever played a game on CAO/CDO? 12:16:29 !lg * x=cdist(name) 12:16:36 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:44 1501247 games for *: cdist(name)=16588 12:17:02 thanks 12:17:14 on average, every player plays 100 games 12:17:25 quite a lot 12:17:26 dpeg: by the way, there are already nearly as many players this tourney as there were in all of last tourney 12:17:42 awesome 12:17:46 and more players who reached XL 9, or who got a rune, or who won 12:17:50 exponential growth still going strong 12:17:51 elliptic:how about compared to 11a 12:18:12 !lg * t xl>=9 x=cdist(name) 12:18:13 3799 games for * (t xl>=9): cdist(name)=734 12:18:18 !lg * t11 xl>=9 x=cdist(name) 12:18:19 3971 games for * (t11 xl>=9): cdist(name)=729 12:18:20 !lg * t11a xl>=9 x=cdist(name) 12:18:22 4061 games for * (t11a xl>=9): cdist(name)=700 12:18:37 elliptic: I guess those numbers are accessible at any time? Occasionally I used them to measure growth or to compare with the Nethack slackers :) 12:18:56 dpeg: yeah :) 12:19:14 !lg * t won x=cdist(name) 12:19:15 218 games for * (t won): cdist(name)=123 12:19:18 !lg * t11 won x=cdist(name) 12:19:19 232 games for * (t11 won): cdist(name)=116 12:19:20 !lg * t11a won x=cdist(name) 12:19:21 233 games for * (t11a won): cdist(name)=108 12:19:43 elliptic: what's your opinion on the rune lock stuff at this point? 12:19:54 * dpeg has to admit he failed to fetch a rune yet :( 12:20:15 a whole lot of people have tso's banner 12:20:20 I'm surprised 12:20:42 maybe it's just a novelty at the moment, but it's certainly not undoable. constriction makes it a bit more of a challenge 12:20:43 dpeg: it seems pretty accessible and some people seem to like the challenge 12:21:26 elliptic: I am more interested in forcing it down peoples' throats, of course :) 12:22:09 elliptic: oh by the way I am in the process of making shadow dragon armor, I'm giving it -AC and +EV and umbra. is that kosher 12:22:23 I am also maybe going to give umbra to shadow dragons 12:22:38 pearl dragons get halo, so I figure it is apropos 12:23:16 dpeg: my main worry about the rune lock is that depending on how it is handled, it could make a lot of fun things nearly impossible 12:23:17 and then maybe I will get rid of rN on PDA and just give it halo as well 12:23:20 for instance, diving D 12:23:26 WHat is rune lock? 12:23:44 I think it definitely needs a way of bypassing it in one direction 12:24:08 rax: there's an idea of making it so that people have to get a rune before going past D:13 or D:14 or so 12:24:24 What's the rationale? 12:24:40 currently people do lair branch ends too late 12:24:47 because there isn't much reason to do them early 12:25:15 they don't have (much) loot and a rune does absolutely nothing until you have three, currently 12:25:34 elliptic: You can pass the lock once without a rune? 12:25:42 I don't suppose adding more loot is an option? :) 12:25:53 So yuo can go beneath D:14, but then you're stuck until you get a rune. 12:26:14 ghallberg: I think there should be a way of doing that, yeah... guaranteed shafts are one possibility 12:26:33 ...that seems like it would reward some playstyles and penalize others, but I haven't played the game seriously in long enough that I don't know how seriously I take my own opinion 12:26:38 What's the benefit? 12:27:04 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:07 rax: the idea is to force people into places like swamp:5 when they are actually dangerous, rather than letting them wait until they are XL 22 and can breeze past them 12:28:48 03kilobyte * rfc91b1d355d0 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Transmuting into tiny pieces is Conj not Tmut. 12:28:49 03kilobyte * r038d441b0198 10/crawl-ref/source/libutil.cc: Fix a mangled comment. 12:28:50 03kilobyte * r76630604fa2a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (crash.cc crash.h libunix.cc main.cc): In DGL, give games stuck for 60s CPU time the finger (the Nethack level 7 one). 12:29:24 I guess my instinct is that would make marginal combos a lot harder and not matter that much for power combos, but I do think there is a risk of people not doing swamp:5 forever and rendering it sort of irrelevant 12:29:28 It's an interesting idea. 12:32:50 rax: the current tourney has a banner for getting a rune before entering D:14, to simulate the idea to some extent 12:33:01 on the other hand, there is a serious cost of railroading the game 12:33:14 elliptic: can you do a query to see all combos that have done at least tso 1 12:33:34 4oh that's clever to make it a tourney banner :) 12:33:54 flord (L6 DrCj) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:4) 12:34:03 regarding rune lock: 12:34:10 while it won't affect advanced players, I'd look first at ordering the difficulty of Orc vs Lair 12:34:12 kilobyte: I think that providing a non-rune means to bypass it with a fair bit of risk will help in that case 12:34:12 Wensley_: I don't think I can do a sequell query to get it; I could tinker with my local tourney scripts a bit though 12:34:13 -!- dpeg has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:35:48 my instinct is that it goes against the huge amount of flexibility that this game provides. it feels like an arbitrary barrier in a game that doesn't have many of those 12:36:21 I do branch ends when I can for the rune and the exp. But out of the trio, only snake is more or less consistently doable for me. 12:36:39 nfogravity: ideally I'd want there to be at least three ways of getting past the barrier 12:36:47 that's better 12:36:49 nfogravity: the player still has the choice of which rune to go after, since you only need one. and yes, there should be ways to bypass it 12:36:52 yeah, it'd probably would be better to make the difficulty-to-reward ratio more equal 12:37:01 swamp rune, snake rune, slime rune 12:37:03 :) 12:37:09 Shoals demands too much stuff to survive, and swamp is horribly tedious with some occasional danger. 12:37:19 get a rune, shaft past (and need a rune to get back), or maybe some other branch (forest has been suggested) 12:37:42 make a rune lock vault with a jiyva altar outside :D 12:37:48 D:15: ok items little difficulty, Snake:5: same items as D:15 but D:27-like risk 12:37:50 making the whole dungeon less directed and acyclic would be nice 12:38:04 Wensley_: hell yeah! 12:38:17 acyclic is an awesome word 12:38:28 Wensley_: I thought about technical issues here, and it'd be a nice improvement 12:39:12 also, there's a related issue: autotravel never, ever detours to another level unless there is absolutely no way on the current one 12:39:21 are there a lot of technical issues? I feel like even in the worst case we could use portals to random or hardcoded branch floors rather than staircases 12:39:27 ah yes, autotravel 12:40:10 which means even if you're standing on stairs that go to a stair cluster leading back right to the place you want to get to (ie, distance 3), autotravel will still go a long way on the current level 12:40:48 kilobyte: the answer to that is to only have one upward staircase on any floor, and make all other downward staircases on the floors above into trap doors 12:41:22 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:25 kilobyte: I think that's sort of sensible though... it is good to know that autotravel won't take you off the level 12:41:32 Wensley_: that doesn't change my question -- it still will often be a good idea to go there 12:42:10 elliptic: sometimes, yeah... at the cost of taking grossly inoptimal paths 12:42:32 kilobyte: if I just went down those stairs running from monsters, I don't want to be surprised by traveling somewhere on the (safe) level taking me right back to them 12:42:59 perhaps there could be some weight assigned to stairs, so it'd prompt only when the route through another level is a lot shorter 12:43:13 elliptic: it always prompts if it has to detour currently 12:43:17 There used to be an option to tell autoexplore *not* to leave the current level. 12:43:18 I guess it could still prompt, yeah 12:44:10 there are two other ways: ! level autoinscription, and autoexcluding stairs, although new players don't know that 12:44:33 dpeg: you mean, autotravel? Autoexplore doesn't know about stairs. 12:44:40 yes, I meant autotravel 12:48:39 I used to think that cycles in the dungeon graph are cool but I am not so sure anymore. A lot more trouble to explain what's going on (currently, a few lines in Ctrl-O are needed) and I am not sure if there are actual gameplay benefits: the choice of branch already exists -- would it be augmented in any way? 12:49:37 way less travelling, for one 12:50:00 hm, the food burden is one of few reasons against the pendulum, imo 12:50:42 the rune lock would be another reason: connecting Elf to Vaults would be an obvious cycle 12:51:20 it would also allow us to make Hell portals work the intuitive way 12:51:48 yes, fixed connections like E:$ - V:$ would be fine -- no cognitive trouble with those 12:51:56 (and killing Geryon would give a reward in 3-rune games: faster travel) 12:56:03 138 games so far have gotten their first rune before entering D:14, in the tourney 12:56:14 !lm * t type=rune urune=1 12:56:19 574. [2012-03-05] Kozaczu the Crack Shot (L19 HEBe) found a serpentine rune of Zot on turn 55633. (Snake:5) 12:56:45 so 24% 12:56:57 elliptic: nice 12:58:46 that 138 games is 112 distinct players 12:58:57 !lm * t type=rune x=cdist(name) 12:58:57 2486 milestones for * (t type=rune): cdist(name)=284 12:58:58 * dpeg wishes he was one of them. 12:59:27 so 39% of players who got a rune have a TSO banner 12:59:51 !tourney 12:59:57 !tournament 13:00:02 !time 13:00:06 Time: Mar 05, 2012, 07:00:06 PM, UTC. The 2012 0.10 tournament ends in 6 days, 4 hours, 59 minutes and 53 seconds. 13:00:08 thx 13:02:04 Are you using Greenwich time for some reason? 13:03:05 tourney starts and ends at midnight UTC 13:03:40 just because that's what it did before I took it over :) 13:04:29 because what better excuse to leave work before 5pm on the friday the tournament starts? ;) 13:04:37 I think that means yes (zero meridian). 13:04:43 Zannick: <3 13:05:03 kilobyte had an idea with making tourney start and end times flexible to not favor people in certain time zones, but I'm not sure it is worth it 13:06:29 few people are going to start at 2am then ascend 13:07:12 kilobyte: I started at 1am and got first win (barely) this tourney :P 13:07:18 how about just varying the starting time from tournament to tournament, e.g., start next tournament at 12 noon UTC 13:08:00 most successful clan can determine starting time for the next tournament :) 13:08:13 -!- SamB has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:08:13 randomize the starting time 13:08:25 it might be worthwhile to have a poll to see what starting times players prefer 13:08:30 6:14:33 am utc 13:08:32 yes 13:09:32 any fixed starting time is going to penalize someone :( 13:09:41 speaking of the poll 13:09:57 i realized shortly after i submitted that i forgot to mention r/roguelikes 13:10:09 (as a place where people discuss dcss sometimes) 13:10:19 not many people from Down Under or the Greensnarkland, though (relatively) 13:10:50 once there are millions of Chinese crawlers, have to adapt 13:11:01 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:11 what is the link to the survey results summary? 13:11:16 have per-player starting times? :P 13:11:33 they'll cover us with caps (a Russian proverb) 13:11:45 hm, i guess that would wreak havoc with all the "first x" points 13:12:15 zannick: that was kilobyte's suggestion pretty much... but yes, it basically ruins the "first x" points, and if you are throwing away those points then why does tourney start time need to be per-player? 13:12:17 Zannick: those are the whole point :) 13:12:21 Zannick: one idea is to start the clock the first time you start a game, but not later than 12? 24? hours into the tourney 13:12:43 elliptic: they'd be provisional points 13:12:46 oh, that was exactly my idea 13:12:51 but the lovely tension of knowing that players around the world are playing their first tournament game *right now*, like you 13:13:02 it'd diminish it for spectators, yeah 13:13:03 elliptic: don't know about summary 13:13:10 kilobyte: uh, that doesn't work 13:13:23 if you want to get first win, should wait for others to start first 13:13:29 kilobyte: you'd just give people who can wait until the end of the start time range an advantage since they know what time to beat 13:13:40 yes, history spoils future 13:14:22 the tension between playing as fast as possible and playing carefully enough to not die is what that race is all about 13:14:28 as in, rewards risky play? You may have a point here. 13:15:03 one option is to simply remove the points for first win, if we think they are a problem 13:15:13 no, they are cool 13:15:29 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:31 if we really want to do something, why not set different starting times for different tournaments? 13:15:45 (people would still get their names on the front page, just no points... like the "low turncount win" and such are handled currently) 13:15:50 but first: quick poll on forum 13:15:56 that's probably the better solution, set different times 13:18:02 if they were not worth points i would not go for them because of the risk involved 13:18:41 all non-grindy stuff could be worth points, including more banners, imo 13:19:06 we should have a zot defense tourney 13:19:45 hm, might be less interesting, i suppose 13:19:48 I'd like a Sprint weekend 13:19:54 (for each new map) 13:20:00 dpeg: the thing is that some stuff shouldn't be worth points because otherwise people will just tack them onto every game 13:20:02 or maybe just an afternoon 13:20:03 a sprint Sprint 13:20:16 elliptic: I know ==> non-grindy :) 13:20:23 elliptic: could be simply points for doing it at least once 13:20:34 but certainly some stuff could 13:21:30 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:54 dpeg: sprint weekend would be neat... for a sprint tourney to be really good though, you ideally want the map to be secret until the start of the tourney, and even after that you don't want to let people look at the .des file 13:22:15 this was managed in the 2010 tourney and it was very good, so it is definitely possible :) 13:22:49 elliptic: yes 13:23:09 might also encourage the making of sprint maps 13:23:40 "We announce the 2013 Sprint Spring: SUICIDAL SLIMES by [author]" 13:24:07 FR: zot defense sprint map 13:25:03 fr: zot defense sprint map generator 13:25:28 just have to make it clear to people that if they want a tourney for their map, then they should keep testing limited to a handful of really good testers 13:25:31 we can ask the Nethack boys, they didn't even got a Sokoban generator working :) 13:25:48 elliptic: and high secrecy standards 13:25:54 dpeg: I've heard rumours that there is one, but haven't seen it 13:26:04 ais523: what a pity 13:26:11 dpeg: sokoban generation sounds like a hard problem 13:26:13 also, I've considered writing one 13:26:15 s/hard/interesting/ 13:26:19 Wensley_: doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough. 13:26:20 generating arbitrary Sokobans is easy, generating interesting ones is hard 13:26:49 ais523: you may know, but I reckon Sokoban (as is) to be a net loss to the game (design, gameplay, balance) but it could've been done so much better. 13:26:56 I set a Sokoban-making puzzle as part of a puzzle compilation in another game, and it's really really hard even though you only have to make a 5x5 puzzle with specified properties 13:27:17 fr sokosprint map 13:27:23 dpeg: indeed; although even if the puzzle were trivial, if it involved a bunch of boulder movement I still think it'd help the game, just because of the effect it has on combat 13:27:37 it's some of the most player-hostile terrain I've seen 13:28:02 you're frequently boxed into a small area and can't run into a corridor, you have to use ranged attacks (and can't use force bolt, so probably have to resort to physical ranged), and monsters can go down paths you can't 13:28:31 yes, can be tactically interesting 13:29:17 and when there's a mimic behind a key boulder and you're out of ammo you're just screwed 13:29:25 now, if the puzzles would be better, it'd be better 13:29:31 Zannick: you can smash the Oracle statues for ammo 13:29:55 oh right, rocks are ammo 13:31:05 * Zannick hasn't played in a while 13:31:36 I think that's a fundamental philosophy difference between NetHack and Crawl 13:31:45 in NetHack, if you have a problem, you can probably adapt your strategy to deal with it 13:31:53 in Crawl, you just have to deal with what you find 13:32:36 i played rogue a few times yesterday 13:32:49 rax: the manual (and other help screens, like the list of aptitudes) isn't readable on CAO 0.10 13:33:14 in rogue, if you have a problem, you can adapt to strategy to "die and start over" 13:33:32 Zannick: rogue is frequently unwinnable due to not generating enough food to survive no matter what you do 13:33:33 ais523: it is much easier to avoid dealing with problematic monsters in crawl 13:33:39 elliptic: right 13:33:50 in Crawl, you can't always deal with monsters, so the game allows you to run away and round them without penalty 13:33:54 i managed to avoid starving by dying first :P 13:34:05 NetHack's much better at forcing you to deal with them somehow, but it gives you the tools to do so, and often in an interesting way 13:34:55 Zannick: give Brogue a try 13:35:04 maybe 13:35:09 :P 13:36:09