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00:15:19 <Gretell> TheTrumpeter (L9 DgTm) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:8)
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01:38:34 <Gretell> onwiheg (L12 DEFE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (Lair:2)
02:19:26 <dpeg> Hey,  Brogue 1.6.2 is out! With some of my suggestions, yay.
02:24:00 <dpeg> evilmike: many, many thanks for the irc digest mail! I had no idea that mumra showed up, for example. I hope my bad conscience will make me add the content that demigods need.
02:24:37 <evilmike> heh
02:24:54 <evilmike> hopefully someone will adopt it, it sounds like he doesn't have the time
02:25:16 <dpeg> yes, I knew he was busy
02:25:46 <dpeg> as far as I understand, adding content is possible without coding skills... need to define pseudo-uniques for each god, for example
02:26:18 <nfogravity> git grep is utterly amazing
02:26:28 <evilmike> it sounds like a lot of the coding work is done. A while ago marvinpa tried it, and there were still some bugs though
02:26:34 <dpeg> better than plain grep?
02:26:38 <nfogravity> yeah
02:26:42 <dpeg> good to know
02:26:45 <nfogravity> way faster and its output is really nice
02:26:48 <dpeg> nfogravity: good idea for a patch, btw
02:26:55 <nfogravity> oh thanks!
02:27:01 <nfogravity> for now i want to fix this thing
02:27:09 <nfogravity> i just made a patch, i'm trying to see what to do next
02:27:13 <dpeg> evilmike: surely there'll be bugs... it is a pretty big commit
02:28:09 <nfogravity> how do i run 'util' and 'checkwhite'?
02:28:40 <evilmike> 'util' probably refers to source/util
02:28:56 <evilmike> I think checkwhite is a perl script in there that fixes whitespace
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02:29:50 <nfogravity> oh, it means run the checkwhite file in /util
02:29:52 <nfogravity> got it, thank you
02:30:43 <nfogravity> i don't have a perl distro on my computer but i'm sure the whitespace is correct
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02:40:24 <nfogravity> i don't know if anyone's reported this exploit
02:41:03 <nfogravity> i think it's major though
02:41:12 <nfogravity> it trivializes constriction if you know it exists
02:41:20 <evilmike> it's major, yes
02:41:33 <evilmike> and this is the first I've heard of it, although maybe someone in ##crawl discovered it
02:42:34 <evilmike> I love how mashing < works but > doesn't
02:42:59 <nfogravity> yeah, i figured that out too
02:44:18 <nfogravity> it's because the code that handles constriction is earlier in the go_upstairs function than go_downstairs
02:44:37 <nfogravity> so you just get "you can't go down here!" if you try to mash > while not on stairs
02:44:43 <nfogravity> if you are on stairs you can do it though
02:44:51 <nfogravity> and it takes 0 turns
02:47:38 <nfogravity> how do i get git to tell me what version i'm modifying?
02:49:27 <nfogravity> eh i'll just say .10 because i know it's there
02:49:53 <nfogravity> i can give more details in the ticket
02:50:19 <nfogravity> yup
02:54:12 <galehar> evilmike: thanks for the c-r-d summary!
02:54:57 <galehar> I was surprised to see my proposal for loot reduction there. I thought everybody just ignored it :)
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02:56:27 <galehar> nfogravity: git describe
02:57:15 <nfogravity> oh thanks!
02:58:46 <nfogravity> i guess the question is does it count as cheating if you use a known exploit in the .10 stable code :/
02:58:57 <evilmike> this is bad enough that it will go in to 0.10.1
02:59:34 <evilmike> it's not a crash, but it's a nasty exploit, of the sort that everyone will do once they find out
03:00:38 <nfogravity> so, during the tournament
03:00:41 <nfogravity> is it kosher to use
03:01:12 <evilmike> well, I would say, try not to use it or talk about it too much. I mean, it's better not to exploit bugs
03:01:43 <nfogravity> well i'm currently filing a bug report, with the patch attached
03:01:47 <nfogravity> what should i do instead
03:01:51 <evilmike> oh, that's fine
03:03:27 <nfogravity> submit as bug report or patches?
03:03:44 <ghallberg> I'm filling out the survey, how large is a _major_ patch? :(
03:03:49 <ghallberg> :)
03:04:31 <evilmike> yeah. When I said "dont talk about it too much" I just meant that you dont want to go around telling people how to cheat, at least during the tournament :P
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03:05:10 <nfogravity> i found out about it in one channel and this is the only other channel that's heard about it
03:05:37 <nfogravity> but it will be public when i publish a bug report announcing ti
03:05:38 <nfogravity> it
03:07:23 <nfogravity> so i guess i'm asking if i should
03:07:37 <evilmike> I think mantis has a feature to make issues "private". but this channel has public logs, anyway
03:07:56 <evilmike> so I would say this is something that belongs on the bug tracker
03:08:00 <nfogravity> okay
03:08:39 <nfogravity> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5371
03:08:55 <Cheibriados> serious constriction exploit (and a fix) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5371) by nfogravity
03:09:01 <nfogravity> oh thanks chei
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03:10:40 * dpeg sends army knives, clocks and Appenzeller cheese to bhaak.
03:12:44 <nfogravity> evilmike, can you or someone see if that patch actually works so i don't look like an idiot
03:13:18 <evilmike> yeah, I applied it locally, currently building
03:13:47 <nfogravity> i just wizarded myself up to xl27 and spawned a naga, that was fine for testing
03:14:02 <evilmike> galehar: about the loot thing, I figured it was noteworthy enough to warrant a mention, at least. Otherwise it would have been lost
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03:17:14 <galehar> yeah. It's actually the proposal to remove ?DC that made me think of it. Instead of giving its weight to random uselessness, reducing the global loot can keep other scrolls frequency unchanged.
03:17:36 <galehar> Of course, we would have to take a look the other item types.
03:18:55 <nfogravity> does it work, evilmike?
03:20:02 <evilmike> nfogravity: yeah
03:20:04 <nfogravity> woo
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03:44:34 <Keskitalo> I like the new sprawling layout, nice change of pace.
03:44:53 <evilmike> the tunnel one?
03:45:23 <Keskitalo> Ah, there's many? This one has a wide (3 or more tiles) tunnel, yes, but it's not nearly as exposed as the open layouts.
03:45:57 <evilmike> I think that's the only new dungeon layout in 0.10. Just making sure
03:49:23 <CIA-62> 03sbalady * rf0c39d70b321 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc melee_attack.cc): Fixed an exploit where a player could break out of constriction without spending turns by pressing < repeatedly. Also, made constriction interrupt stair travel.
03:49:26 <dpeg> I think cutting ?DC without any other changes would be okay for 0.11.
03:49:33 <CIA-62> 03evilmike * r1f7459dc5733 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc player.cc): Get rid of some duplicated code.
03:50:35 <dpeg> galehar: hm, you got me there :) (forum thread)
03:50:55 <dpeg> of course, what I *meant* was: commit ahead, unless I'd be unhappy =)
03:53:14 <nfogravity> does that mean someone commited my change?
03:53:32 <ghallberg> nfogravity: I think so :)
03:53:33 <elliptic> mikee_: &&&&&&&&&&
03:53:38 <nfogravity> woo i did something
03:53:43 <elliptic> oops
03:53:47 <ghallberg> nfogravity: Great feeling isn't it? :)
03:54:05 <nfogravity> well this is a pretty major bug so i'm happy to have helped
03:54:57 <dpeg> nfogravity: many thanks!
03:55:59 <nfogravity> you used my email address and not my handle though, i don't know if i like that
03:55:59 <nfogravity> i don't usually use my real name online
03:55:59 <elliptic> nfogravity: someone can change that
03:56:04 <nfogravity> please do, thanks
03:56:38 <dpeg> nfogravity: Hungarian background?
03:57:12 <nfogravity> lots of things, the name is lebanese but i'm pretty much not at all swarthy
03:57:31 <nfogravity> i look like a gangly blue-eyed jew
03:57:47 <evilmike> nfogravity: yeah, it just does that by default. I just used "git am" to apply the patch, didn't change anything in it
03:58:23 <nfogravity> ah i see
04:00:12 <CIA-62> 03elliptic * rd590066ac1d3 10/crawl-ref/git-hooks/crawl-ref-cia: Add nfogravity to the crawl-ref-cia hook.
04:00:31 <elliptic> that should do it
04:00:38 <nfogravity> thank you :D
04:06:51 <nfogravity> kinda makes me not want to play more in the tournament right now, because... ugh. you can imagine why
04:07:22 <evilmike> last tournament there was an infinite xp bug. that was a bit worse
04:07:32 <nfogravity> hahaha how
04:07:51 <evilmike> I'm not sure, I just know it happened
04:07:52 <nfogravity> oh wait i remember
04:08:15 <nfogravity> it was with whatshisname the guy who steals your shit and i hate
04:08:22 <BlastHardcheese> why not just silently patch it :I
04:08:29 <evilmike> nfogravity: nah, that is an infinite gold bug
04:08:44 <galehar> evilmike: it was bad. But triggering on purpose was very tricky.
04:09:00 <nfogravity> infinite xp if you do it with pots of experience i imagine :D
04:09:19 <nfogravity> this is bad because it's trivial to do and removes a major new challenge
04:10:14 <galehar> can we update the servers with the 0.10 branch? Or de we need to tag 0.10.1?
04:10:36 <evilmike> I think the servers are already slightly ahead of 0.10.0. At least, webtiles is (had a few crash fixes)
04:12:36 <evilmike> cdo console too. dunno about cao, changelog there is blank for some reason
04:19:06 <galehar> well, then it would be nice to update the servers to fix this constriction exploit.
04:26:25 <Gretell> SirBaton (L10 MiBe) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:9)
04:26:44 <Gretell> SirBaton (L10 MiBe) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:9)
04:27:04 <elliptic> last tournament there was an infinite xp bug but I only know of one game where it happened, and the player it happened to was a very good player who was already in late midgame, so I don't think it made any real difference
04:28:12 <galehar> and I fixed it in a couple of days :)
04:32:24 <elliptic> !lg * t killer=tentacled monstrosity
04:32:25 <Sequell> 16. robotron1971 the Hoplite (L15 DsAs), worshipper of Okawaru, slain by a tentacled monstrosity on Swamp:4 on 2012-02-29, with 88444 points after 25454 turns and 3:11:52.
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04:56:36 <Gretell> randoark (L21 MiFi) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (Elf:4)
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05:00:09 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-304-gd590066
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05:32:31 <elliptic> Napkin: CDO seems to be having a lot of lag, maybe one of these 100% cpu processes?
05:32:49 <dpeg> yes, I notice this too
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05:34:18 <Napkin> no, unfortunately not
05:35:12 <Napkin> the webtiles version of crawl is just using surprisingly much cpu
05:35:29 <elliptic> :/
05:35:41 <Napkin> but there was a process a few minutes ago (probably a cronjob) which raised the load to 8
05:35:42 <elliptic> right now doesn't seem like it would be that popular a time though...
05:35:48 <elliptic> ah
05:36:03 <Napkin> still, it's quite a noticable increase with 0.10
05:36:15 <Napkin> so, such a cronjob or whatever is much easier felt
05:36:23 <evilmike> webtiles lobby does show a lot of games going on
05:36:49 <Napkin> RapierX for example just used 5 seconds of 78% in his webtiles game
05:36:52 <elliptic> Napkin: by the way, rax has been having trouble with some cgi script (dgamelaunch-cgi-web-status) related to the player status page... you know anything about this?
05:37:06 <CIA-62> 03evilmike * rcb573ebef413 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (branches/abyss.des variable/mini_monsters.des): Six minivaults. (HangedMan)
05:37:16 <CIA-62> 03evilmike * r014fdb507984 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/serial/magic_research.des: "Magic Research" serial vault. (HangedMan)
05:37:25 <Napkin> i know that script, yeah - did she mention what kind of trouble it gave?
05:37:47 <Napkin> it's actually just dumping dgl "lobby info"
05:38:15 <Napkin> load is down to 1.7 - it should be better now
05:38:32 <dpeg> evilmike: btw, also thanks for taking over the vault duties swiftly and more competently than I ever did
05:39:21 <Napkin> hi david, btw :)
05:39:25 <elliptic> Napkin: I'm not sure exactly, but it has something to do with it being impossible to watch games on CAO currently, and also the CAO website keeps going down...
05:39:52 <evilmike> dpeg: no problem :)
05:40:48 <dpeg> Hi Marc. Lunchtime now, back later.
05:45:14 <Keskitalo> That Magic Research serial vault is very much the same as an old idea I had (before serial vaults were introduced), except much more imaginative..
05:45:17 <Keskitalo> Nice!
05:46:05 <Keskitalo> I should check my notes and see if I have "subvaults" to add.
05:46:09 <Keskitalo> ..some day.
05:49:45 <Napkin> i have a suspicion on why watching games is not possible
05:49:56 <Napkin> it's probably the shared memory issue
05:50:39 <Napkin> which also drags down the website, because the cgi script hangs, trying to access the shared memory as well, elliptic
05:50:56 <Napkin> let's see if i can fix that
05:52:58 <evilmike> Keskitalo: its definitely going to give whatever level it spawns on a unique feel
05:53:51 <Keskitalo> I think serial vaults are a great idea and work really well too.
05:56:19 <CIA-62> 03sbalady 07stone_soup-0.10 * r27c08bf82da7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc melee_attack.cc): Fixed an exploit where a player could break out of constriction without spending turns by pressing < repeatedly. Also, made constriction interrupt stair travel.
05:57:29 <Napkin> alright, fixed, elliptic :)
05:57:59 <elliptic> Napkin: great, thanks :)
05:58:24 <edlothiol> hi Napkin :) mind updating the webtiles executable? there's an annoying (and reproducible) crash bug
05:58:24 <Henzell> edlothiol: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
05:58:37 <elliptic> Napkin: do you also have the power to rescue the CAO website, or do we need to wait for rax to wake up for that?
05:59:26 <Napkin> done, elliptic
05:59:30 <evilmike> is that why some tournament pages seem to be out of date?
05:59:37 <elliptic> Napkin: thanks again!
05:59:45 <evilmike> it says this is an ongoing game, but it splatted a few hours ago
05:59:51 <elliptic> evilmike: yeah, but they will be updated very soon now
05:59:57 <evilmike> oh ok, I wont paste what i was about to paste
06:00:46 <elliptic> they couldn't fetch CAO milestones/logfiles so they weren't updating
06:01:02 <elliptic> now updated
06:01:51 <edlothiol> Napkin: a restart of the server won't be necessary btw, only crawl needs updating
06:02:22 <Napkin> !tell rax the issue about the cgi/apache/watching games in dgl: it's some problem with shared memory. this is the solution i am using so far: list all shared memory segments with "ipcs -a", then disable the correct segment with "ipcrm -m xxxx" where xxxx is the shmid of the segment owned by "games"
06:02:23 <Henzell> Napkin: OK, I'll let rax know.
06:02:59 <Napkin> !tell rax just did that on CAO and restarted apache.
06:02:59 <Henzell> Napkin: OK, I'll let rax know.
06:04:41 <evilmike> why do clan pages list winning/remaining gods, but not races or classes?
06:05:01 <elliptic> evilmike: because you can see races/classes easily enough from the list of winning games
06:05:10 <Napkin> restarting server would be easy, updating crawl is sucky, edlothiol ;)
06:05:11 <elliptic> you can't see gods from that, because people may have switched
06:05:22 <evilmike> true
06:06:27 <kilobyte> is there even an easy way to query it in !lg/!lm?
06:06:41 <kilobyte> !lm will list multiple champion milestones if you switch gods
06:06:41 <Sequell> Malformed argument: list
06:06:56 <elliptic> kilobyte: no easy way to query the god thing, yeah
06:08:03 <elliptic> (for a specific game you can of course tell with a few queries, but not for a large set of games)
06:09:04 <kilobyte> !lm . t type=god.maxpiety s=god
06:09:04 <Sequell> 2 milestones for kilobyte (t type=god.maxpiety): Trog, Nemelex Xobeh
06:09:10 <kilobyte> !lm * t type=god.maxpiety s=game_id
06:09:11 <Sequell> 856 milestones for * (t type=god.maxpiety): 139x , 2x 1490470, 2x 1485362, 2x 1486937, 2x 1485802, 2x 1480866, 2x 1481146, 2x 1487906, 2x 1490364, 2x 1489886, 2x 1484570, 2x 1483007, 2x 1485166, 2x 1488421, 2x 1480097, 2x 1483715, 2x 1482653, 2x 1481974, 2x 1478218, 2x 1478123, 2x 1484425, 2x 1478025, 2x 1484557, 2x 1478160, 2x 1489896, 2x 1479293, 2x 1479389, 2x 1479844, 2x 1481797, 2x 1489275, 2...
06:09:31 <kilobyte> empty game_id?
06:10:07 <elliptic> games in progress
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06:10:44 <kilobyte> er, isn't that how milestones are matched to a game?  What's the real game identifier then?
06:11:57 <BlastHardcheese> username?
06:12:17 <elliptic> start time + username + version/server is enough info to determine a game
06:15:13 <kilobyte> hrm, could you remind me how to !lg someone starting with a digit?
06:15:21 <elliptic> !lg @78291
06:15:21 <Sequell> 5637. 78291 the Unseen (L9 NaAs), worshipper of Elyvilon, slain by a deep troll on D:26 on 2012-02-26, with 3694 points after 7351 turns and 0:16:49.
06:15:22 <alefury> @ i think?
06:15:29 <kilobyte> thanks
06:15:33 <elliptic> !lg * name=78291
06:15:34 <Sequell> 5637. 78291 the Unseen (L9 NaAs), worshipper of Elyvilon, slain by a deep troll on D:26 on 2012-02-26, with 3694 points after 7351 turns and 0:16:49.
06:17:46 <kilobyte> ok, assigning game_ids works
06:18:01 <kilobyte> !lm @1KB type=god.renounce noun=Xom s=game_id
06:18:01 <Sequell> 2 milestones for 1KB (type=god.renounce noun=Xom): 1491276, 1491275
06:18:25 <kilobyte> (these games were concurrent on CAO and CDO)
06:25:34 <Keskitalo> !tell nfogravity Thanks for pointing out git grep - very useful!
06:25:34 <Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let nfogravity know.
06:26:22 <dpeg> new subvault, nice
06:26:39 <dpeg> *serial vault, that is
06:28:03 <dpeg> Can you guys tell me how many players took part in the tournament so far? Usage statistics is still missing some data...
06:29:02 <elliptic> !lg * t x=cdist(name)
06:29:03 <Sequell> 13604 games for * (t): cdist(name)=1025
06:29:32 <elliptic> (still waiting on greensnark to pull the fixes to the CAO scoring scripts)
06:30:35 <dpeg> thank you!
06:30:55 <dpeg> is that more players than in the past?
06:32:01 <elliptic> !lg * t11 rend<=201107181232 x=cdist(name)
06:32:05 <Sequell> 10387 games for * (t11 rend<=201107181232): cdist(name)=545
06:32:18 <elliptic> I think that's the number at this point last tourney... but webtiles wasn't up yet then
06:32:48 <elliptic> !lg * t11a rend<=201104191232 x=cdist(name)
06:32:50 <Sequell> 11219 games for * (t11a rend<=201104191232): cdist(name)=943
06:33:19 <elliptic> and that's the number in last May's tourney (which did have webtiles) at this point
06:34:35 <dpeg> steady growth then, as ever :)
06:35:07 <kilobyte> and this is while most other text games decline at a frightening pace
06:35:29 <elliptic> we can also count the number of winners:
06:35:38 <elliptic> !lg * t won x=cdist(name)
06:35:38 <Sequell> 111 games for * (t won): cdist(name)=75
06:35:49 <elliptic> !lg * t11 won rend<=201107181232 x=cdist(name)
06:35:49 <Sequell> 61 games for * (t11 won rend<=201107181232): cdist(name)=40
06:35:50 <dpeg> kilobyte: what other genres are there? Text adventures?
06:35:59 <kilobyte> yeah
06:35:59 <elliptic> !lg * t11a won rend<=201104191232 x=cdist(name)
06:35:59 <Sequell> 65 games for * (t11a won rend<=201104191232): cdist(name)=44
06:36:10 <dpeg> elliptic: number of winning players may be more informative
06:36:29 <dpeg> ah, this is what you count?
06:36:31 <kilobyte> for example, I spent ~10 years of my life on The Two Towers mud, mostly developing
06:36:54 <elliptic> or maybe the number of people to enter Lair:
06:37:01 <kilobyte> the number of players fell by a factor of 4-5
06:37:07 <elliptic> !lm * t br.enter=lair x=cdist(name)
06:37:08 <Sequell> 1224 milestones for * (t br.enter=lair): cdist(name)=471
06:37:38 <elliptic> oh I guess actually this query will have issues for past tourneys, hm
06:37:53 <evilmike> there was no br.enter?
06:38:08 <elliptic> !lm * t br.enter=lair rend<=201202011232 x=cdist(name)
06:38:09 <Sequell> 1037 milestones for * (t br.enter=lair rend<=201202011232): cdist(name)=417
06:38:49 <elliptic> evilmike: no, just that I can only restrict by time to milestones from games that completed by a certain date
06:39:04 <elliptic> which meant I needed to adjust the query for the current tourney, as above
06:39:18 <kilobyte> too bad, recently while I was on a break, they made a decision to add a feature that IMO kills about any replayability, leaving only mindless grinding once you learn most areas
06:39:21 <elliptic> !lm * t11 br.enter=lair rend<=201107181232 x=cdist(name)
06:39:33 <Sequell> 506 milestones for * (t11 br.enter=lair rend<=201107181232): cdist(name)=228
06:39:41 <elliptic> !lm * t11a br.enter=lair rend<=201104191232 x=cdist(name)
06:39:42 <Sequell> 623 milestones for * (t11a br.enter=lair rend<=201104191232): cdist(name)=275
06:40:12 <elliptic> basically t11a had a lot more people who were just trying out webtiles and only played a couple short games
06:40:17 <elliptic> since webtiles was new then
06:40:25 <elliptic> so really this tourney is a lot larger than t11a was :)
06:41:05 <kilobyte> server capability is quite bad, though
06:41:13 <ais523> $ egrep '^t.{11}a$' /usr/share/dict/words
06:41:15 <ais523> no results :(
06:41:19 <kilobyte> CDO has to carry all of webtiles, and people complain about lag
06:41:30 <kilobyte> ais523: :p
06:41:44 <elliptic> it would definitely be good if CAO could get webtiles at some point
06:42:02 <kilobyte> uhm, have you seen the load values on CAO?
06:43:18 <elliptic> no
06:45:27 <kilobyte> I have an idea, though: what if we had a way to deploy a new server with a single command?
06:46:05 <kilobyte> elliptic: hardly ever goes below 10, tends to be around 50 at peak periods
06:46:32 <elliptic> ouch
06:46:39 <kilobyte> looks like an Amazon EC2 instance for the tourney would cost 100-200 USD
06:47:38 <galehar> we could ask for donations to pay for servers
06:47:43 <Eronarn> that's a great summary on crd
06:47:58 <kilobyte> the actual DGL setup would be trivial: do it once, put in a Debian package, test a bit, there it goes
06:48:24 <kilobyte> however, authentication and sending ttyrecs/milestones/logfiles would be a big problem
06:48:28 <Eronarn> kilobyte: i think we should really look into automating more of the server stuff
06:48:39 <Eronarn> it very often seems to be the case that we need to poke the server and only one person knows how to do it
06:48:46 <Eronarn> this is bad for many reasons
06:49:07 <kilobyte> greensnark's scripts can do this on a single installation -- or would if they were complete and maintained
06:49:52 <kilobyte> my idea for a Debian package with a chroot would do only a single version, but then, it could be enough for upgrades by itself (if we accept forced transfers)
06:50:10 <kilobyte> if no, actual Crawls could be co-installable, not a big issue as well
06:50:16 <edlothiol> having one login for all servers would be great anyway
06:50:24 <kilobyte> but, authentication is an elephant in the room
06:50:25 <edlothiol> (also, one rc file ideally)
06:50:57 <kilobyte> edlothiol: do you have an account on CAO and CDO?  Or just webtiles?
06:51:12 <Eronarn> kilobyte: intermediary load balancer that shuffles people to the right server ;)
06:51:12 <kilobyte> if you don't, anyone can take the name and there go your streaks
06:51:40 <edlothiol> I believe I have one on CAO, although I'm not sure I even remember the password
06:52:07 <edlothiol> losing streaks is not really a concern for me, though ;)
06:52:44 <kilobyte> you care for streaks if you have 100 wins or a win rate >1%
06:54:41 <kilobyte> 18 wins / 8609 games for me.  So I'm 2/3 the way to greatplayers while being a prominent member of awfulplayers at the same time :p
06:55:37 <evilmike> awfulplayers tends to have a lot of really good players on it
06:55:48 <evilmike> there are a couple of people who are on it and greatplayers, somehow
06:55:51 <edlothiol> although, two of my three wins were directly successive
06:55:54 <elliptic> awful players has multiple greaterplayers in it, yes
06:56:04 <kilobyte> !nick awfulplayers
06:56:05 <Henzell> Mapping awfulplayers => NyaaKitty Zicher Kilobyte Ragdoll daek phyphor murphy_slaw arcturus chapayev elynae luterac soadreqm ponce wop lordsloth sealer neil
06:56:05 <Sequell> Mapping awfulplayers => NyaaKitty Zicher Kilobyte Ragdoll daek phyphor murphy_slaw arcturus chapayev elynae luterac soadreqm ponce wop lordsloth sealer neil
06:56:06 <dpeg> ??awfulplayers
06:56:07 <Henzell> awfulplayers[1/2]: Membership in the awfulplayers list is strictly voluntary, but only open to those with over 1000 games and a win rate under 1%.
06:56:10 <kilobyte> !nick goodplayers
06:56:10 <Sequell> Mapping goodplayers => 78291 Stabwound hyperbolic mikee maddasher xyblor elliptic clouded rob daftfad pointless cbus Jeff heteroy MarvinPA Iaido itsmu modargo Grimm casmith789 Mong reid nht Pseudonut Jaeger aurelian doy trucutru rax Cyrus jarmok Pacra Mayhem sorear ekaterin ebarrett Birdoprey b0rsuk undermind Tenaya jilles Pigvomit greensnark evilmike Shovelmint uru wasp hayenne eternal rgould Nya...
06:56:10 <Henzell> Mapping goodplayers => 78291 Stabwound hyperbolic mikee maddasher xyblor elliptic clouded rob daftfad pointless cbus Jeff heteroy MarvinPA Iaido itsmu modargo Grimm casmith789 Mong reid nht Pseudonut Jaeger aurelian doy trucutru rax Cyrus jarmok Pacra Mayhem sorear ekaterin ebarrett Birdoprey b0rsuk undermind Tenaya jilles Pigvomit greensnark evilmike Shovelmint uru wasp hayenne eternal rgould Nya...
06:56:37 <dpeg> ??greatplayers
06:56:38 <Henzell> greatplayers[1/3]: Players who have won every currently available to play race. Lifetime membership once you get in!
06:57:02 <jeanjacques> mmh did the blink onto branch mimic and enter bug still exist in 0.10?
06:57:03 <kilobyte> !nick goodplayers KiloByte
06:57:03 <Sequell> Mapping goodplayers => 78291 Stabwound hyperbolic mikee maddasher xyblor elliptic clouded rob daftfad pointless cbus Jeff heteroy MarvinPA Iaido itsmu modargo Grimm casmith789 Mong reid nht Pseudonut Jaeger aurelian doy trucutru rax Cyrus jarmok Pacra Mayhem sorear ekaterin ebarrett Birdoprey b0rsuk undermind Tenaya jilles Pigvomit greensnark evilmike Shovelmint uru wasp hayenne eternal rgould Nya...
06:57:03 <Henzell> Mapping goodplayers => 78291 Stabwound hyperbolic mikee maddasher xyblor elliptic clouded rob daftfad pointless cbus Jeff heteroy MarvinPA Iaido itsmu modargo Grimm casmith789 Mong reid nht Pseudonut Jaeger aurelian doy trucutru rax Cyrus jarmok Pacra Mayhem sorear ekaterin ebarrett Birdoprey b0rsuk undermind Tenaya jilles Pigvomit greensnark evilmike Shovelmint uru wasp hayenne eternal rgould Nya...
06:57:09 <dpeg> Shouldn't they prove their greatness by winning the new species as well? Who cares about won dwarves?
06:57:16 <kilobyte> (another bad joke for me, it's persistence not skill)
06:57:28 <evilmike> jeanjacques: it was fixed
06:57:35 <elliptic> dpeg: well, we didn't want to kick people like stabwound off the list...
06:57:50 <dpeg> sure sure :)
06:57:55 <jeanjacques> oh ok. i would have been annoyed for not realizing the opportunity otherwise
06:58:10 <kilobyte> so do I have to re-do kenku/tengu or not? :p
06:58:11 <dpeg> there should be a "devoted veteran" badge :)
06:58:18 <evilmike> kenku counts as tengu, really
06:59:00 <elliptic> the question of whether players have to win tengu if they already won kenku hasn't come up yet really
06:59:36 * dpeg has never played a human.
07:00:57 <kilobyte> well, humans suck, and unlike other races where it's just fantasy we can prove the suckiness in RL :p
07:01:19 <Eronarn> give humans better apts :P
07:01:29 <elliptic> we could consider buffing starting stats or stat gain for humans a bit
07:02:19 <dpeg> Oh, I didn't mean that... humans are fine in Crawl. I also never played mummy or ghoul :)
07:02:31 <Eronarn> ghouls are fun
07:02:35 <kilobyte> elliptic: I meant it mostly theme-wise :p
07:02:35 <elliptic> that's the thing that annoys me playing them... their stats are mediocre
07:02:58 <kilobyte> actually, humans have better stats than most races
07:03:06 <elliptic> ??starting stats[2]
07:03:07 <Henzell> starting stats[2/3]: Ce 8,5,2 | DD 9,6,6 | DE 3,10,8 | Dg 9,10,9 | Dr 8,6,4 | Ds 6,7,6 | Fe 2,7,9 | Gh 9,1,2 | Ha 3,6,9 | HE 5,9,8 | HO 9,3,4 | Hu 6,6,6 | Ke 6,6,7 | Ko 5,4,8 | MD 9,4,5 | Mf 6,5,7 | Mi 10,3,3 | Mu 9,5,5 | Na 8,6,4 | Og 10,5,3 | Op 5,8,5 | SE 6,7,7 | Sp 2,7,9 | Tr 13,2,3 | Vp 5,8,7
07:03:50 <elliptic> doesn't look like it to me... only a bit below average though
07:04:35 <kilobyte> their great XP aptitude means you get boosts up faster
07:04:54 <kilobyte> ng-setup.cc _species_stat_init() lists sums
07:05:35 <elliptic> ??stat gain[2]
07:05:36 <Henzell> stat gain[2/2]: Ce sd/4 | DD si/4 | DE i/4 | Dg sid/2 | Dr sid/4 | Ds sid/4 | Fe id/5 | Gh s/5 | Ha d/5 | HE id/3 | HO s/5 | Hu sid/5 | Ko sd/5 | MD s/4 | Mf sid/5 | Mi sd/4 | Mu none | Na sid/4 | Og s/3 | Op sid/5 | SE id/4 | Sp id/5 | Te sid/4 | Tr s/3 | Vp none
07:06:29 <elliptic> I wasn't really suggesting anything at all large, just changing sid/5 to sid/4 or something
07:06:43 <kilobyte> out of 23 races, 5 have >=20, 2 =19, 13 =18, 4 <18
07:06:45 <elliptic> (this means just 1 point higher, I know)
07:07:40 <kilobyte> hmm right, let's do that then -- /4 seems to be average
07:10:35 <elliptic> there are 24 races currently, by the way :P
07:10:48 <elliptic> oh, your numbers add up to 24, that's good
07:14:17 <CIA-62> 03kilobyte * rb8b00d2e0a72 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Give humans an extra stat at level/4 rather than level/5.
07:21:33 <kilobyte> speaking of balancing races,
07:21:34 <kilobyte> !lg * win t s=race
07:21:34 <Sequell> 112 games for * (win t): 23x Minotaur, 12x Naga, 9x Spriggan, 6x Mummy, 6x Hill Orc, 6x Deep Elf, 5x Deep Dwarf, 4x Demonspawn, 4x Merfolk, 4x Human, 3x Kobold, 3x Ghoul, 3x Vampire, 3x High Elf, 2x Troll, 2x Halfling, 2x Sludge Elf, 2x Centaur, 2x Ogre, 2x Tengu, 2x Demigod, 2x Felid, White Draconian, Black Draconian, Purple Draconian, Green Draconian, Octopode
07:21:52 <evilmike> minotaurs are popular because they are the de facto newbie melee race
07:22:00 <evilmike> nagas are overpowered with constriction though
07:24:03 <elliptic> Mi isn't really a surprise, though it would be nice if we could encourage a few more players to do HO instead somehow
07:24:31 <elliptic> !lg * won t na s=urune,char
07:24:32 <Sequell> undefined method `empty?' for 11:Fixnum
07:24:38 <elliptic> !lg * won t na s=char,urune
07:24:39 <Sequell> 12 games for * (won t na): 2x NaVM (3, 11), 2x NaFE (2x 15), 2x NaCj (2x 15), 2x NaGl (10, 15), NaTm (15), NaFi (15), NaWz (15), NaEE (15)
07:25:00 <elliptic> the nagas were mainly allruning so I don't think constriction is really playing that big a role
07:25:16 <elliptic> just naga has always been a very popular allruner choice
07:25:24 <elliptic> !lg * won t mi s=char,urune
07:25:25 <Sequell> 23 games for * (won t mi): 7x MiBe (5x 3, 5, 15), 6x MiSt (5x 3, 15), 6x MiFi (3x 4, 2x 3, 15), 3x MiMo (2x 5, 3), MiGl (3)
07:26:00 <elliptic> note the 6x MiSt is because of nemelex's choice
07:26:03 <dpeg> also, the first Nemelex choice was MiSt
07:26:10 <evilmike> heh, I feel sorry for the 6th one
07:26:15 <Cheibriados> aptitudes won't display during character creation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5372) by wesleyshaver
07:26:30 <elliptic> only one octopode win suggests that constriction isn't *that* overpowered, anyway
07:27:00 <elliptic> #5372 is a CAO setup issue
07:27:04 <Eronarn> it's quite OP early on, not that good later, ime
07:27:17 <dpeg> I like the market style points for underplayed species/backgrounds/gods... that should even out things, after a while (within a tournament, and during evolution of tournaments)
07:27:33 <alefury> elliptic: i played a HO, but died because im an idiot :(
07:27:37 <Eronarn> naga early game must be a joke with constriction
07:27:42 <dpeg> good early, not strong later is exactly as it should be, troll style
07:27:43 <Eronarn> it was already easy
07:27:44 <evilmike> new hill orcs are very fun
07:28:14 <elliptic> about gods, Sif/Trog/Okawaru/Vehumet are all fairly close so far as starting god, then a jump down to the others
07:28:33 <dpeg> elliptic: can you list them here?
07:28:42 <elliptic> http://seleniac.org/crawl/tourney/12a/species-classes.html
07:29:03 <elliptic> I can't get that list up as a query
07:29:13 <elliptic> I can get gods at the end of the game though:
07:29:20 <elliptic> !lg * won t s=god
07:29:20 <Sequell> 112 games for * (won t): 19x Vehumet, 17x Trog, 13x Sif Muna, 10x The Shining One, 7x Makhleb, 7x Okawaru, 5x Jiyva, 5x Kikubaaqudgha, 4x Lugonu, 4x Ashenzari, 4x Nemelex Xobeh, 4x Cheibriados, 3x , 3x Yredelemnul, 3x Zin, 2x Fedhas, 2x Elyvilon
07:29:24 <evilmike> my tournament page isn't showing my demigod (cao), did it break again?
07:29:41 <evilmike> oh, maybe it only updates when I get a milestone
07:29:41 <elliptic> fairly similar except that a lot of people switched to TSO
07:29:46 <dpeg> hehe, I just took up Zin
07:29:48 <elliptic> evilmike: yeah
07:30:11 <elliptic> and a ton of people switched away from Okawaru
07:30:34 <elliptic> !lm * won t s=god.maxpiety
07:30:35 <Sequell> 127 milestones for * (won t): 21x Vehumet, 19x Trog, 18x Okawaru, 14x Sif Muna, 11x The Shining One, 8x Makhleb, 6x Kikubaaqudgha, 6x Jiyva, 4x Cheibriados, 4x Ashenzari, 4x Nemelex Xobeh, 3x Elyvilon, 3x Yredelemnul, 3x Zin, 2x Fedhas, Lugonu
07:30:53 <evilmike> !lm * won t s=god.abandon
07:30:53 <Sequell> Unknown selector god.abandon
07:30:59 <elliptic> that counts ****** milestones for winning games only... not an awful distribution there
07:31:04 <kilobyte> !lm * won t s=god.renounce
07:31:05 <Sequell> 26 milestones for * (won t): 11x Okawaru, 3x Vehumet, 2x Zin, 2x Trog, Kikubaaqudgha, Xom, The Shining One, Jiyva, Elyvilon, Makhleb, Sif Muna, Nemelex Xobeh
07:31:34 <evilmike> was expecting more yred on there
07:31:34 <elliptic> !lm * t s=god.maxpiety
07:31:34 <Sequell> 864 milestones for * (t): 164x Trog, 137x Okawaru, 121x Vehumet, 111x Sif Muna, 64x Makhleb, 57x Cheibriados, 52x Kikubaaqudgha, 38x The Shining One, 26x Ashenzari, 20x Yredelemnul, 19x Nemelex Xobeh, 17x Lugonu, 10x Beogh, 10x Jiyva, 8x Fedhas, 5x Elyvilon, 5x Zin
07:31:37 <elliptic> and that includes non-wins
07:31:40 <kilobyte> heh, note Zin and the HuPr Nemelex' Choice :p
07:33:01 <elliptic> !lg * won t s=urune
07:33:02 <Sequell> 112 games for * (won t): 50x 3, 36x 15, 13x 4, 7x 5, 10, 9, 14, 11, 6, 7
07:34:10 <kilobyte> ie, the tournament rewards only 3-runers and one 15-runer per player
07:34:23 <elliptic> second 15-runer is a fair number of points too
07:34:29 <elliptic> or it doesn't have to be the full 15 runes
07:34:55 <elliptic> since each of the 12 later runes is still worth 15 points the second time you get it... that's 180 points
07:34:57 <kilobyte> yeah, except the first three
07:35:49 <elliptic> !lg * won t urune>5 s=name
07:35:49 <Sequell> 42 games for * (won t urune>5): 3x jeanjacques, 2x pivotal, 2x Bart, 2x crate, 2x evilmike, 2x magistern, 2x djroomba, MarvinPA, clouded, oxeimon, nono, buffalo66, GreatZebu, elliptic, Sosloow, RapierX2, PuddyDumplins, Tutankham, Firebatgyro, R18, Homard, Torious, nfogravity, sirdond, Sphara, OneEyedJack, minmay, reid, MorganLeah, Gauss, shrooms, ShadyAmish, Yermak, Glenstorm
07:37:25 <elliptic> the formula could maybe use some tweaking... like, instead of 30/N, maybe 60/(N+1)
07:37:34 <elliptic> not sure
07:41:18 <elliptic> !lg * won t11 urune>5 s=name
07:41:19 <Sequell> 74 games for * (won t11 urune>5): 5x jeanjacques, 3x Elynae, 3x theglow, 2x mikee, 2x ophanim, 2x flyschy, 2x Grandpa, 2x soul, 2x LexAckson, 2x evilmike, 2x reid, 2x hipsterscumbag, 2x jle, 2x R18, hyperbowl, MarvinPA, mumra, Sky, PigVomit, Sycthos, qtip, Regnix, Oddsox, OneEyedJack, Cybermg, Alg, agentchuck, Ret, elliptic, chillblain, jokeserver, oxeimon, hem, Hambone, babyegg, IjonTichyy, dabe,...
07:41:32 <dpeg> elliptic: yes. Can also make rarely picked up runes give more points.
07:42:08 <jeanjacques> i need all the help i can get
07:42:38 <elliptic> I think maybe giving a certain number of non-decreasing points per game based on how many runes you found might be good
07:43:01 <dpeg> jeanjacques: with what?
07:43:42 <jeanjacques> just a tourney point joke
07:43:48 <alefury> dpeg: its usually either 15 or 3, so i dont think giving more points for rarely picked up runes would accomplish much
07:44:04 <alefury> !lg * won t s=urune
07:44:04 <Sequell> 112 games for * (won t): 50x 3, 36x 15, 13x 4, 7x 5, 10, 9, 14, 11, 6, 7
07:44:14 <dpeg> elliptic: but that supports amassing... what if you the golden rune was attractive because it is picked up so rarely?
07:44:25 <elliptic> alefury: yeah, to some extent this is just a feature of crawl itself... if you can get 5 or 6 runes, you can get 15 without that much more work
07:44:34 <elliptic> dpeg: it isn't that rare though:
07:44:35 <dpeg> alefury: different sets of three runes would also be good!
07:44:38 <elliptic> !lm * t s=rune
07:44:39 <Sequell> 1455 milestones for * (t): 203x decaying, 193x silver, 179x serpentine, 179x barnacled, 92x slimy, 90x abyssal, 54x demonic, 53x glowing, 53x magical, 53x bone, 53x fiery, 53x iron, 51x dark, 51x golden, 50x icy, 48x obsidian
07:44:49 <dpeg> elliptic: yes, Kiku and TSO spoil the show
07:44:52 <alefury> dpeg: crawl actively discourages that
07:45:23 <ais523> swamp is noticeably easier than snake and shoals?
07:45:28 <alefury> i guess doing tomb with kiku, or a lucky abyssal rune, are about the only situations where getting a "different set" works
07:45:33 <elliptic> 10 runes are basically all gotten together or not at all in the great majority of games
07:45:35 <ais523> (vaults is presumably harder but generates more often, based on that)
07:45:47 <alefury> swamp is much easier, yes
07:45:49 <elliptic> ais523: or at least people think it is easier and do it earlier before dying elsewhere
07:45:57 <elliptic> I'd agree swamp is easier usually, though
07:45:58 <alefury> depending on the ending of course
07:45:58 <ais523> right
07:46:16 <elliptic> and yes, vaults is guaranteed, whereas swamp/shoals/snake are each in only 2/3 of games
07:46:27 <dpeg> I like Slime
07:46:30 <ais523> I know, I was adjusting for that in deciding it was harder
07:47:10 <alefury> swamp has clouds and dragons of a previously known type. snake and shoals have large numbers of enemies with strong ranged AND melee attacks, and extra ways of screwing you.
07:47:21 <elliptic> dpeg: Slime is definitely a good difficulty, yeah... I remember back when I started playing, it was very commonly advised to do Slime before Zot for the extra XP/loot
07:47:35 <elliptic> whereas now this isn't so common, but it still happens sometimes
07:47:55 <ais523> hmm, I just checked NetHack's optional branches, 29732 Sokoban completions, 22223 Mines completions
07:48:08 <ais523> interesting, because the top-end players generally do Sokoban but skip the second half of the Mines
07:48:55 <dpeg> elliptic: another idea might be to reward players for picking up as many runes types as possible during the whole tournament (how often and when won't matter). Sure, a good player will all-rune. But I, for example, never all-runed, so I might pick up various runes with different characters.
07:49:33 <elliptic> dpeg: I tried to encourage that a little with a banner for picking up five types of rune over of the course of the tourney
07:49:46 <dpeg> elliptic: yes, I noted :)
07:49:51 <alefury> elliptic: the banners are excellent imo
07:50:01 <dpeg> The banners look gorgeous, gotta keep saying that.
07:50:30 <ais523> dpeg: even so, good players will just do one all-runer then go back to doing the three or four easiest ones
07:50:43 <ais523> I remember casmith789 asking me what the optimal strategy was for maximising score in the tournament
07:50:44 <elliptic> dpeg: I think one thing that would help a lot is if we could make pan and hell more separate somehow, so that some characters can handle one but not the other
07:51:08 <alefury> one suggestion i saw was making the main denizens of pan demonspawn
07:51:11 <dpeg> elliptic: I agree, but cannot comment: never done Pan. Or a ziggurat, for that matter.
07:51:12 <elliptic> zin protecting from hell effects is sort of the kind of thing I mean
07:51:25 <dpeg> !whereis dpeg
07:51:32 <Henzell> dpeg the Gusty (L1 DsAE) quit on D:1 on 2011-10-05 after 0 turns.
07:51:41 <elliptic> but also making it so that TSO is less dominating in both would be good
07:51:47 <dpeg> absolutely
07:51:48 <elliptic> !lg * t urune=15 s=god
07:51:49 <Sequell> 36 games for * (t urune=15): 14x Vehumet, 6x Sif Muna, 5x The Shining One, 3x Makhleb, 2x Jiyva, 2x Nemelex Xobeh, Trog, Cheibriados, Lugonu, Ashenzari
07:51:57 <elliptic> though that isn't bad
07:52:08 <dpeg> yes
07:52:28 <dpeg> pity that we didn't get the Vehumet change... couldn't reach Thasero anymore
07:52:41 <kilobyte> I guess Vehumet should be heavily nerfed, especially if he's going to get that unique spells coolness buff
07:52:49 <elliptic> kilobyte: yeah
07:52:55 <dpeg> I am against the unique spells, whatever that's worth.
07:52:57 <elliptic> nerfing storm spells could be part of that
07:53:12 <alefury> dpeg: why?
07:53:30 <dpeg> lots of work, can of worms etc. -- think about how much content Nemelex needs: essentially, he is all about unique effects. I wouldn't start another front like that.
07:53:34 <elliptic> also maybe nerfing vehumet's MP on kills
07:54:10 <dpeg> If you have good ideas, go ahead. I'd reckon that Vehumet is better helped in other ways.
07:55:11 * dpeg whispers that a god is ready for plucking on the wiki.
07:55:17 <kilobyte> dpeg: most of spells proposed are a kind of palette swap
07:55:39 <kilobyte> er, not really just palette, the numbers can make a spell completely different
07:56:18 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, but I am not convinced about the wisdom of that. Perhaps fine for one-off effects (e.g. a random god) but needless complexity for a staple god. But YMMV etc.
07:56:27 <kilobyte> like, if I get that shotgun targetting for Magma, Avalanche is a matter of a wider cone, different damage type, different damage values and level
07:57:11 <kilobyte> and we got some fully implemented but removed effects like Orb of Electricity
07:57:42 <kilobyte> there's relatively little coding effort -- and quite a bit of balancing
07:57:48 <dpeg> If they work fine as full spells, there is no need to hide from most everyone. If they have problems, giving them to Vehumites will not solve that.
07:58:04 <kilobyte> however, since the god is being overhauled anyway, that balance costs has to be paid in general
07:58:32 <kilobyte> yeah, if a spell is overpowered, people would scum Vehumet to get it then abandon
07:59:07 <elliptic> well, could make abandoning vehumet cause memory loss for such spells
07:59:11 <kilobyte> while a variant that's as powerful or at most a small bit better than regular spells wouldn't be an issue here
07:59:13 <evilmike> regarding god popularty stuff, i think vehumet is better than sif, but also feel that the popularity comes from his form of mp regeneration being more fun than sif's 'aaaaaaaaaaaaa'
07:59:37 <kilobyte> evilmike: also, remember my Sifumet idea
08:00:15 <elliptic> !lg * t urune=3 s=god
08:00:16 <Sequell> 77 games for * (t urune=3): 18x Trog, 11x Okawaru, 6x Makhleb, 5x Sif Muna, 5x Vehumet, 4x Lugonu, 4x Ashenzari, 4x Yredelemnul, 4x Zin, 4x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Fedhas, 2x Nemelex Xobeh, 2x , 2x Elyvilon, Xom, Jiyva, The Shining One
08:00:17 <kilobyte> heck, if Sif's channeling sucks, what's the point of having both gods?
08:00:25 <elliptic> evilmike: I don't buy that
08:00:37 <elliptic> plenty of people like channeling afaict
08:00:39 <alefury> it doesnt suck, but its an active thing, so i end up not using it enough.
08:01:01 <elliptic> and sif is nearly as popular as vehumet so far if you don't just look at allruners
08:01:16 <kilobyte> channeling vs mana for kills, success boost vs miscast protection
08:01:21 <evilmike> I am alright with channeling in a normal game, it's when I'm slinging level 9 spells and need to regain mp that it gets tedious
08:01:26 <elliptic> I think vehumet is mainly just attracting lots of people who want to spam fire/ice storm to kill &s
08:01:45 <elliptic> kilobyte: they don't feel at all similar to play with
08:02:14 <alefury> yeah, sif feels boring while veh lets you blow stuff up :)
08:02:17 <elliptic> Veh gives you L9 spells at XL 18
08:02:19 <kilobyte> because of Sif's "be undead or else" thingy?
08:02:21 <alefury> veh is just much more focused, so if you know what you want to do he will help you do it
08:02:23 <elliptic> kilobyte: no?
08:02:32 <dpeg> elliptic: spell gifts would allow to change that in an interesting way
08:02:46 <elliptic> dpeg: yes
08:03:22 <elliptic> kilobyte: I just don't see the appeal in merging our two main caster gods... then instead of having 19x Vehumet, 14x Sif, we would have 33x Sifumet
08:04:02 <kilobyte> elliptic: Chei gives you L9 spells at XL13-14 with a single ring of wizardry, it's mostly about finding a spellbook or not
08:04:10 <kilobyte> elliptic: hmm, good point
08:04:21 <elliptic> kilobyte: Veh boost is better than Chei boost
08:04:34 <dpeg> elliptic: but Chei boost is broader
08:04:36 <evilmike> the changed veh also wont gift summons, which is a small but important difference, I think
08:04:37 <alefury> chei also gives massive EV though
08:04:42 <alefury> and lets you wear heavy armor
08:04:54 <elliptic> and slows you and prevents you from casting haste :)
08:05:08 <dpeg> everything comes at a price
08:05:11 <alefury> chei really is a lot better than people think, you just have to play to his strength
08:05:15 <alefury> which is killing dudes
08:05:16 <elliptic> I'm not sure why Chei is relevant here though
08:05:26 <evilmike> I find the chei orbrun nightmarish, but that's off topic :p
08:05:33 <kilobyte> alefury: Chei is damn good, but useless for Zigs.
08:05:48 <alefury> actually chei sucks for most of extended
08:05:48 <elliptic> chei is good in zigsprint :P
08:06:00 <kilobyte> evilmike: he greatly slows down the opposition now
08:06:05 <alefury> because hell effects, mostly
08:06:11 <elliptic> kilobyte: even so, it is rough
08:06:13 <alefury> also because buffs
08:06:19 <alefury> keeping up buffs with chei is a nightmare
08:06:23 <dpeg> btw, do people think Fedhas is okay power-wise (non-extended)?
08:06:34 <evilmike> kilobyte: my last chei game had clustered stairs on one level, and I had to fight off 4 pan lords
08:06:42 <kilobyte> dpeg: fruit supply is insanely random
08:07:05 <dpeg> kilobyte: that was part of the appeal for me (plus % acq)
08:07:08 <elliptic> oklob spam on Zot:5 is pretty silly
08:07:57 <dpeg> elliptic: better to scrap the god?
08:08:30 <elliptic> no need to scrap the god, but I think oklobs need some thought
08:08:43 <alefury> yay fedhas nerf?
08:08:55 <dpeg> elliptic: I believe plants should "go out" after a while, so no luring, at least not long-time
08:09:01 <evilmike> getting spores from corpses is one of the most fun god powers in the game, imo
08:09:06 <evilmike> fedhas is worth keeping for that
08:09:06 <dpeg> kilobyte: there was this idea of fruit plant, which would reduce fruit variance
08:09:23 <dpeg> evilmike: hehe, my only Mennas kill was with six apples
08:09:34 <kilobyte> dpeg: as in, more available fruit, but higher costs?
08:09:44 <elliptic> dpeg: could help, and/or putting a limit on how frequently you can use evolution to make oklobs
08:09:58 <dpeg> kilobyte: no, some plants in Lair are fruit plants, which means a much more reliable income of frutis
08:09:59 <kilobyte> this could allow adding 2-fruit plants while oklobs cost, say, 5
08:10:00 <evilmike> how about all those weird plant ideas someone posted on the forum?
08:10:04 <evilmike> is there any fedhas potential in that?
08:10:15 <dpeg> evilmike: what I just wrote
08:10:24 <elliptic> I'd just like it if there was more encouragement to use oklobs throughout the game rather than saving everything for Zot:5
08:10:32 <kilobyte> evilmike: as presented, not really -- but I see quite a few uses for the tiles proposed
08:11:01 <kilobyte> like, a melee turret
08:11:03 <dpeg> elliptic: yes, using them frequently on branch ends and versus nasties (like my Mennas) would be good. I did that, but I am not the yardstick for good play.
08:11:56 <kilobyte> elliptic: unlike Trog's or Makhleb's summons, you can stash the whole supply
08:12:03 <evilmike> ah right, the fruit plant was part of those ideas
08:12:07 <kilobyte> while piety can't be really stored
08:12:46 <kilobyte> evilmike: fruit plants may work, those corpse-eating ones not at all
08:13:05 <elliptic> kilobyte: yes, that's why I like the idea of throttling the amount of fruit you can actually use at one time/place
08:13:35 <dpeg> needless to say, I find the idea of using F powers to get fruits completely counter to the concept
08:13:57 <kilobyte> dpeg: yeah, that'd be converting piety to fruits
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08:14:47 <dpeg> but note that piety can be regained whereas fruits cannot -- this is why most reactions towards the fruit god have been negative (when I proposed it)
08:14:58 <Ragdoll> why am i able to airstrike through plants but not trees
08:15:11 <elliptic> because trees are really strange
08:15:14 <evilmike> i dont like how trees block spells, for what its worth
08:15:16 <kilobyte> after a thought, the fruit plant idea isn't that good.  It's a no-brainer: bash the plant for a while to get extra food.  Just an interface hassle.
08:15:27 <elliptic> I don't like how trees exist
08:15:47 <Ragdoll> just make trees act like grates
08:15:51 <Ragdoll> likewise for glass
08:15:59 <kilobyte> Ragdoll: :p
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08:16:21 <elliptic> oh, about grates, I discovered today that they block refrigeration but not the targetting of freezing cloud
08:16:38 <elliptic> this is precisely the sort of inconsistency that the glass changes were supposed to resolve :(
08:16:43 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, good point. And I am not convinced the reduced fruit variance is actually a good thing. If you find 20 strawberries early on now, it might mean something. Or a Fedhasite might blow acquirement on food.
08:16:53 <Ragdoll> yes, i am also annoyed by the fact if there is a 1 tile glass pillar, and a monster is on the other side of it refridge also doesnt work
08:16:54 <kilobyte> elliptic: hmm, yeah
08:16:59 <elliptic> also they block player reaching weapons but not monster reaching weapons
08:17:13 <Ragdoll> why not just revert the whole business
08:17:27 <elliptic> I just don't understand what they are supposed to do other than "preserve all of the bad things about glass so that a couple vaults can use them"
08:18:17 <Keskitalo> Could we replace the grate-encased casters with monster statues with the right spells?
08:18:31 <alefury> a lot more stuff goes through grates than through glass
08:18:47 <Keskitalo> (assuming that's the problem)
08:18:47 <elliptic> (I abused freezing cloud through grates to kill a ton of draconians in the zot entry vault with 325809 grates)
08:19:01 <Ragdoll> what
08:19:06 <Ragdoll> you are horrible
08:19:08 <Ragdoll> for shame
08:19:20 <kilobyte> Ragdoll: ...
08:19:59 <evilmike> that one could use glass instead, that one just had grates originally because bars seemed to make more sense than glass in a castle. it was partially a tiles thing (back then it was practically the same as glass)
08:20:25 <elliptic> evilmike: no, that one can't use glass instead because it has dracs with polearms reaching through the grates
08:20:34 <Ragdoll> 4
08:20:37 <evilmike> that part can just be removed, it's not a big deal
08:20:37 <elliptic> in 1x1 cells
08:20:43 <elliptic> yeah
08:20:47 <kilobyte> elliptic: water/lava then?
08:21:01 <evilmike> most of the grate using vaults have enemies with ranged attacks
08:21:23 <Ragdoll> i like how whole mechanics have been changed instead of vaults
08:22:17 * dpeg recalls how Matthew (zelgadis) suggested translucent walls and there was a lot of opposition.
08:23:09 <evilmike> the vault changes were just done because suddenly a bunch of vaults didn't work at all. removal was another option, and still is one if there's enough agreement
08:23:59 <evilmike> i'm not strongly opinionated, i just lean slightly more towards keeping them
08:24:02 <elliptic> grates in vaults might be fine, but only if we have a clear notion of what is and isn't supposed to be able to go through them
08:24:49 <evilmike> any sort of smite targeted or LOS type effect, I think (it's bad that they block OCR)
08:25:06 <kilobyte> weapons of reaching: certainly not
08:25:11 <evilmike> OTR*
08:25:21 <kilobyte> (player's reaching has to be blocked, monsters need to be consistent)
08:25:34 <evilmike> also, i think they should use the same rules as statues (they seem to already)
08:25:42 <kilobyte> radiance working through would be ok
08:26:12 <evilmike> i also think trees should have the same rules though, under the justification that you target spells through the "gaps" between the statue/grate, and trees work the same way
08:26:13 <kilobyte> I'd change statues to work consistently with monster statues
08:26:32 <galehar> how about something simple and intuitive: grates block only movement, everything can be fired through. Glass block everything except some smiting. Then adjust vaults to use on or the other to prevent abuse.
08:26:32 <evilmike> make regular statues plant-like monsters?
08:26:45 <elliptic> galehar: glass allowing smiting is problematic
08:26:56 <elliptic> mainly because of beogh orc priests
08:27:16 <dpeg> elliptic: but they have to pay with piety?
08:27:23 <elliptic> dpeg: I mean orc priest allies
08:27:26 <kilobyte> dpeg: no, you have a horde with you
08:27:36 <evilmike> i find summon demon more problematic
08:27:37 <elliptic> that too, yes
08:27:40 <galehar> right, so glass block everything and grate nothing.
08:29:01 <elliptic> grate blocking nothing at all means we want to use it sparingly and only with monsters with ranged attacks inside
08:29:45 <elliptic> though I guess it isn't worse than deep water / lava
08:29:47 <MarvinPA> usingboth glass and grates more sparingly sounds like a good idea anyway, to me
08:30:06 <kilobyte> grates were originally added because grate traps had problems with redefined glass
08:30:08 <elliptic> if glass blocks everything then it doesn't have to be used that sparingly
08:30:09 <MarvinPA> i'm really not a fan of the serial vault that covers an entire level in glass, for example
08:30:28 <MarvinPA> elliptic: well, glass is still annoying for blocking travel when monsters are on the other side of it
08:31:16 <elliptic> MarvinPA: yeah, that's occasionally pretty annoying... mainly just a problem with that serial vault I think though
08:31:55 <alefury> theres also one temple entry that is quite horrible in that regard. the glass spiral.
08:33:02 <elliptic> after thinking a couple minutes more, I like galehar's suggestion for grates... it makes them like deep water/lava that can be dug/disintegrated but can't be levitated over
08:33:24 <elliptic> alefury: that one can be tactically interesting at least
08:34:30 <alefury> one issue with grates is cloud spreading. they currently block it. optimally they would not, and have a cloud on their tile, that can be stepped into once dug.
08:35:27 <galehar> grates blocking clouds is the weirdeist unintuitive thing
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08:36:24 <CIA-62> 03evilmike * rf7b2635d400e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Actually remove some grates, for once.
08:36:41 <Gretell> Kel (L1 TeSu) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:1)
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08:42:56 <Ragdoll> i am unable to shut my air elementals up about forming itself from the air
08:43:10 <Ragdoll> message_colour = mute:.*air elemental (formes|merges)
08:43:24 <Ragdoll> message: An air elemental forms itself from the air!
08:43:31 <evilmike> "formes"
08:43:41 <Ragdoll> oh god
08:44:04 <Ragdoll> thanks
08:56:19 <CIA-62> 03evilmike * raf9ddfd7d9f7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/pan.des: Remove a weird DESC: line in the classic Cerebov map.
08:56:29 <CIA-62> 03evilmike * rf7f00fca61af 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Remove DESC: line from a temple map.
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09:05:38 <kilobyte> ok, so do we have a consensus on grates?
09:05:53 <evilmike> I like galehar's idea
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09:14:01 <alefury> not blocking reaching seems weird
09:14:33 <evilmike> !learn add hilarious_deaths !lg * killer=~garbold 2 -tv
09:14:33 <Henzell> hilarious deaths[77/77]: !lg * killer=~garbold 2 -tv
09:14:44 <alefury> shouldnt be abusable though, because putting monsters without ranged attacks behind grates makes no sense
09:14:58 <alefury> so no poking the defenseless through the bars
09:15:03 <kilobyte> makes sense with spears, not with halberds
09:15:08 <alefury> yeah
09:15:54 <Gretell> nonest (L3 DEWz) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:3)
09:20:01 <dpeg> gameplay > realism
09:28:12 <alefury> well, grates are mostly just reflavored lava, so...
09:28:44 <alefury> lava for flyers that can be dug instead of levitated over
09:29:29 <evilmike> its just easier to remember the rules from them that way
09:29:58 <alefury> one thing: plants block or hinder a bunch of stuff too.
09:30:00 <evilmike> lava does have one big difference in that it generates smoke too, although it can be made not to
09:30:11 <alefury> like ranged attacks, reaching
09:30:54 <alefury> just making everything go through grates like they dont exist seems quite weird to me because of that
09:31:10 <Keskitalo> There's also bushes..
09:31:33 <alefury> those are just sturdy plants. trees on the other hand...
09:31:44 <Keskitalo> Like plants, but allow artillery (not sure about reachiing) to go through (or over)
09:31:47 <evilmike> plants/bushes/trees just cant be used in a lot of these vaults, for flavour reasons
09:31:49 <Keskitalo> and cloud-block LOS
09:31:55 <kilobyte> bushes are also immune to beams, which is... weird
09:32:03 <Keskitalo> doom bushes of death
09:32:09 <alefury> wow, i did not know these things about bushes
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09:34:45 <Gretell> nonest (L6 DEWz) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:4)
09:43:48 <Cheibriados> spells do not target crawling corpses (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5373) by ldierk
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10:20:54 <Keskitalo> Turns out there's a bunch of food-related code that is unused in itemprop.cc
10:21:30 <evilmike> yeah
10:21:40 <evilmike> and the same numbers are somewhere else, but with slight differences
10:21:43 <galehar> EXTERMINATE!
10:22:03 <evilmike> iirc the unused ones are in a nice table
10:22:18 <Keskitalo> I wonder which is newer - it immediately came to my mind that the other approach is from b26 and the other is from 4.1 beta.
10:24:24 <Keskitalo> (no idea if this is true.
10:25:15 <Keskitalo> The nice table looked nice.
10:25:49 <evilmike> looks like the table is newer by about 5 years
10:26:07 <elliptic> Keskitalo: then there are the uncalled methods that read from the table
10:26:11 <rwbarton> for how many of those years has it been unused?
10:26:13 <evilmike> the one in food.cc has been there since 2005
10:26:25 <evilmike> the one in itemprop was last changed by greensnark in 2010
10:26:34 <evilmike> though i havent looked at the actual commit so maybe its older than that
10:27:58 <evilmike> yeah looks like its older than 2010, not sure what the best way to look at this is
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10:28:49 <Keskitalo> It's not in b26, at least in itemprop.cc
10:31:37 <evilmike> the table is in 1d0f57c, which makes it extremely old. the food.cc stuff is there too
10:31:46 <evilmike> so just at a quick glance this seems to be as old as dcss
10:31:54 <elliptic> yeah, at least 2006
10:32:29 <evilmike> like this is so old that the commit before it is saying "dcss is just a fork, not the official version"
10:33:39 <Keskitalo> To me it does look like it's from 4.1beta. I looked at SVN browsing on sourceforge; it's not in the initial crawl-ref commit (which is b26), but is in the commit r452 that merges the stonesoup branch into the main branch.
10:36:37 <Keskitalo> To me it looks like eating strawberries takes two turns.
10:36:52 <elliptic> yes
10:37:02 <elliptic> only sultana/grape takes one turn iirc
10:37:15 <Keskitalo> Nope..
10:37:44 <Keskitalo> All give "continue eating" messages, goblin hits me twice, in the code they're all the same except rations and chunks.
10:38:06 <elliptic> hm, I wonder why I thought that
10:39:37 <Keskitalo> In the nice table in itemprop.cc, rations are given 4, chunks 3 and the rest one turn.
10:39:57 <evilmike> Seems like all the "fast foods" are 2 turns
10:40:01 <evilmike> I thought some were 1 too
10:40:30 <Keskitalo> I wonder what the intention is. In food.cc, rations get 3 duration (for start_delay) and the rest get 1. Chunks get two in a different function.
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10:44:53 <Keskitalo> Mrf, with one-turn eating the "You finish eating." message feels out of place, but it probably takes some tinkering to get rid of it..
10:45:23 <nfogravity> how can i tell git "that's nice, but i'm done, please pull and wipe out my local changes"
10:45:24 <Henzell> nfogravity: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
10:45:30 <nfogravity> !messages
10:45:32 <Henzell> (1/1) Keskitalo said (4h 19m 57s ago): Thanks for pointing out git grep - very useful!
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10:46:02 <rwbarton> you want to throw away any changes you've ever made?
10:46:19 <Keskitalo> "git reset --hard HEAD" would remove uncommit changes and return to HEAD
10:46:23 <rwbarton> git reset --hard origin/HEAD; git pull
10:46:26 <rwbarton> er
10:46:27 <rwbarton> origin/master
10:47:08 <nfogravity> is that uncommon, rw? a lot of it was me trying to figure out the basics of the code
10:47:17 <nfogravity> and the one commit i made is in master now
10:47:24 <rwbarton> no, just making sure before I tell you how to throw away all your changes :)
10:47:28 <nfogravity> thank you :D
10:47:33 <evilmike> if you're messing around with stuff you plan on discarding, you could create a branch
10:47:44 <Keskitalo> nfogravity: Thanks for the fix btw :)
10:47:55 <nfogravity> you're welcome! that was a nasty bug
10:48:29 <nfogravity> i wouldn't recommend trying to escape nagas up the stairs now
10:48:49 <nfogravity> actually this might make constriction monsters at the stairs kind of unfair
10:49:16 <nfogravity> but that's a balance issue, not a bugfix
10:49:26 <alefury> constriction monsters are already kind of unfair everywhere :P
10:53:00 <evilmike> the new behaviour makes more sense
10:53:59 <nfogravity> i don't think HEAD works for local non-devs, but origin does
10:54:02 <nfogravity> thank you
10:58:34 * dpeg recalls players complaining about the unfair slime creature mechanic.
10:58:57 <Keskitalo> !lg
10:58:57 <Sequell> 211. Keskitalo the Insei (L10 NaTm), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on D:9 on 2012-02-29, with 3707 points after 10728 turns and 0:58:47.
10:59:09 <nfogravity> after winning with a jiyva worshipper i'm never gonna complain about slime creatures
10:59:43 <Keskitalo> I found myself enjoying & probably benefitting from constricting a monster and meleeing another there a couple of times.
11:00:00 <Keskitalo> It's hard to keep track of who you're constricting though.
11:00:11 <evilmike> tiles at least has a little graphical indication
11:00:23 <Keskitalo> Ah yes, I was talking about console.
11:00:31 <nfogravity> i can work on that too
11:00:33 <Keskitalo> I assumed tiles had an icon. :)
11:00:38 <CIA-62> 03Keskitalo * rd6647fe3e5fd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (delay.cc food.cc): Make ambrosia, grapes and sultanas take only one turn to eat.
11:00:48 <Keskitalo> nfogravity: That'd be cool!
11:00:48 <evilmike> hardly any status effects display in console. Dunno how they could be though
11:00:52 <ghallberg> I've been thinking that the monster list could use some indicators.
11:00:54 <evilmike> the only one I can think of is inner flame
11:01:10 <Keskitalo> I have no ideas, of course. :)
11:01:20 <nfogravity> background changes is sort of the obvious solution
11:01:29 <Keskitalo> Are there colours left?
11:01:43 <ghallberg> z / goblin zombie (dormant)
11:01:53 <ghallberg> If it's carrying a polearm/spear/reachweap
11:01:56 <nfogravity> well i guess the most evocative way to do it would be to make your background color the color of the monster constricting you
11:02:07 <ghallberg> z & goblin zombie (dormant) it it's constricted
11:02:09 <nfogravity> and also make their background that same color
11:02:15 <ghallberg> (That's you hugging it or something)
11:02:51 <nfogravity> right now i'm trying to fix a bug that appeared in msysGit this morning though
11:02:53 <Keskitalo> & does make sense, but monster list doesn't really help if you're battling a gnoll pack
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11:03:00 <nfogravity> "TERMINAL is not fully functional" :/
11:03:01 <ghallberg> Keskitalo: True...
11:03:18 <ghallberg> Keskitalo: But it shows that there IS one with a spear.
11:03:23 <Keskitalo> Fixing msysgit bugs? niice...
11:03:30 <ghallberg> It would need to get its own line though.
11:03:33 <ghallberg> So itd be:
11:03:36 <ghallberg> 3 gnolls
11:03:44 <ghallberg> g / gnoll
11:03:49 <ghallberg> on one line each.
11:03:52 <galehar> Keskitalo: I remember having a look at the eating delay. It sets the delay to x, but then there's an additional turn used when finishing delay, so the total time taken is actually x+1
11:04:40 <Keskitalo> Is this just for eating?
11:05:50 <galehar> I'm not sure, but I think the finish delay function inconsistently use one turn. I changed it for on delay type, can't remember which one.
11:06:01 <Keskitalo> One thing that comes to mind how to nerf player naga constriction, if necessary: I read from here that it is good at the beginning but gets less good over time - so nagas could gain constriction at some XL.
11:06:19 <Keskitalo> While octopodes, which I presume to be fragile in melee, could have it from XL1.
11:06:48 <elliptic> Keskitalo: I sort of like that idea
11:06:51 <evilmike> funny, I cant remember anyone suggesting nagas gaining it at certain xl. but that makes sense
11:07:00 <evilmike> many species abilities only kick in at a certain level
11:07:06 <elliptic> poison spit is plenty of early game goodness for nagas
11:07:07 <galehar> that was multi drop
11:07:14 <alefury> it instakills most early enemies, so its probably not fine as is for octopodes
11:07:42 <Keskitalo> Yeah, early nagas are fun, and making them easier - as much as I liked it when I had a real situation - is not so good.
11:07:46 <evilmike> octopodes do less damage with it, since they have bad str compared to nagas
11:07:52 <elliptic> well, the success formula for a constriction attempt needs major work
11:08:05 <elliptic> chance of success is really really high currently
11:08:06 <Keskitalo> Of course, the slow speed of nagas forces them into more fun situations.. but maybe that happens later on as well.
11:08:18 <alefury> elliptic: i posted a suggestion for escaping from constriction on the wiki a while ago, could you have a look?
11:08:25 <Keskitalo> It thought I felt it happened often.
11:08:29 <alefury> formula suggestion that is
11:08:43 <evilmike> what do you think a good level would be for nagas gaining contriction? 12 maybe?
11:08:55 <elliptic> evilmike: 13 IMO
11:09:17 <elliptic> 13 and 14 seems to be when races get stuff
11:09:28 <elliptic> or 15 for tengu, hm
11:09:34 <nfogravity> ah got it
11:09:34 <MarvinPA> that definitely sounds like a good idea for nagas, yeah
11:09:35 <elliptic> okay, maybe we already aren't consistent :P
11:09:38 <galehar> There. It was in 1200feec
11:09:44 <elliptic> alefury: will look later
11:09:47 <MarvinPA> they definitely don't need constriction to help their early game
11:09:52 <evilmike> 13 and 14 are at least "half way" to 27, not that xp works like that
11:09:55 <nfogravity> the whitespace perl code sets TERM to dumb, it looks like
11:11:16 <alefury> iirc player nagas only got constriction for consistency with monster nagas. so might as well pick an arbitrary level. it doesnt really feel overpowered in lair anymore.
11:11:24 <galehar> I think halfway is 14 not 13. Since you start at L1
11:11:36 <Keskitalo> 14 sounds good to me too.
11:12:20 <evilmike> that might be a bit high though, nagas level slowly
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11:13:10 <elliptic> we already have stuff that races get at 7, 13, 14, 15, 26
11:13:11 <elliptic> I think
11:13:11 <evilmike> oh actually never mind, they are 120
11:13:16 <evilmike> thought they were higher for some reason
11:14:07 <alefury> elliptic: formula suggestion is near the bottom of the constriction page
11:15:39 <alefury> bye
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11:23:10 <nfogravity> anyone here know about console output?
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12:16:28 <Eronarn> i think we could stand to make nagas have a waeker constriction rather than just making them get it later
12:16:58 <Eronarn> seems like it should be much harder to grapple a bat with a tail than with several tentacles
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13:01:30 <Gretell> nonest (L7 DEWz) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:6)
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13:10:32 <nfogravity> ugh i can't fucking find this code
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13:15:45 <edlothiol> nfogravity: what are you looking for?
13:15:51 <nfogravity> a few things
13:16:14 <nfogravity> one, i'd like to know where the part of the code that displays enemy health on the HUD is
13:16:53 <nfogravity> two, i'd like to know how to change an enemy's background colour
13:17:18 <edlothiol> by enemy health on the hud, you mean in the console monster list?
13:17:22 <nfogravity> yes
13:18:13 <edlothiol> _print_next_monster_desc in output.cc
13:18:52 <edlothiol> (line 1125 approx.)
13:18:56 <nfogravity> oh wow that is super-useful thank you
13:19:48 <nfogravity> what i'm trying to do is to map ^v to a toggle that shows enemy health colour as their background
13:21:47 <edlothiol> about changing a monsters background color, I guess _get_mons_colour in showsymb.cc would be involved
13:22:08 <edlothiol> although note that you can't really change bg/fg colours in console independently, as far as I know
13:23:09 <edlothiol> you can set the glyph colour, and optionally invert it so that the background is coloured instead of the foreground
13:23:25 <edlothiol> at least that's how I remember it
13:23:35 <nfogravity> ah is that how it works? i'd like that
13:23:51 <nfogravity> it's supposed to be an at-a-glance thing that tiles has and console doesn't
13:24:10 <edlothiol> I believe you have to set COLFLAG_REVERSE
13:24:44 <nfogravity> that only gets called in directn.cc, libunix, tileweb and view
13:24:52 <nfogravity> i'll take a look at view
13:26:15 <edlothiol> the occurence in view.cc isn't really interesting, it's just setting it to simulate a cursor
13:29:34 <nfogravity> draw_ray_glyph in directn.cc seems relevant
13:30:14 <edlothiol> not really, it's just for rays ;)
13:30:33 <nfogravity> well what i'd like to find, as a model
13:30:37 <nfogravity> is, say, sleeping monsters
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13:30:53 <edlothiol> _get_mons_colour
13:32:46 <nfogravity> so the blue background that sleeping monsters have is actually a single color value?
13:33:52 <edlothiol> they get COLFLAG_MAYSTAB or something like that in _get_mons_colour, which then later gets translated (dependent on options) into a platform-dependent flag
13:34:48 <edlothiol> which I think just reverses the colour (i.e. bg <-> fg)? I haven't really played console in a while
13:37:22 <nfogravity> okay, i'll keep looking
13:37:49 <rwbarton> man, you must have *really* not played console in a while :P
13:42:34 <edlothiol> it's not *that* long, I just have a bad memory ;)
13:42:40 <nfogravity> oh i see
13:42:46 <nfogravity> all the color data is handled bitwise
13:42:54 <nfogravity> which is why it's so fucking abstruse
13:43:28 <nfogravity> the bg data is on the high bit
13:43:36 <edlothiol> yeah
13:43:36 <nfogravity> foreground on the low bit
13:43:48 <edlothiol> right, that's what I had forgotten about
13:44:01 <edlothiol> the whole CHAR_ATTRIBUTES
13:44:10 <nfogravity> so bitwise or with COLFLAG_WILLSTAB sets the high bit to blue
13:44:37 <edlothiol> only indirectly
13:44:46 <nfogravity> hm?
13:45:03 <edlothiol> see e.g. _colflag2brand in colour.cc
13:45:35 <edlothiol> that's where the COLFLAG_ enums get translated to these bitwise colours
13:45:52 <edlothiol> so you can't really set a background colour directly from the display code
13:46:21 <edlothiol> you can only set a colour together with some of the COLFLAGs
13:46:45 <nfogravity> i could if i coded it though, those are just constants in defines.h
13:47:20 <edlothiol> well yeah, but there's no room for more flags as far as I can see
13:47:58 <nfogravity> this would be part of the colour data of the monster
13:48:16 <nfogravity> you hit ctrl-v once, it swaps the high bit with its hp pool
13:48:25 <nfogravity> hit it again, it recalculates what it should have been
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13:49:28 <nfogravity> frankly putting those colflags as they are is sort of a hacky solution
13:49:43 <nfogravity> the #defines should be things like BG_RED
13:49:57 <rwbarton> but the colors are customizable
13:50:19 <nfogravity> ahhh, that is a wrench
13:50:22 <rwbarton> some people have COLFLAG_WILLSTAB monsters red, etc.
13:50:58 <edlothiol> what rwbarton said -- the COLFLAGs don't directly encode colours, they get translated to colours later, depending on options
13:51:27 <edlothiol> you can't encode a separate background colour in the monster colour
13:52:47 <nfogravity> but those COLFLAGS don't store any information that can't be reobtained from monster data later, right?
13:57:17 <nfogravity> as in, i could make some new brands in options for hplow_brand, hpmid_brand, etc etc
13:57:37 <nfogravity> and that way i can set defaults to be hi:red, hi:yellow, etc
13:57:45 <nfogravity> but if that doesn't work people can make them whatever
13:59:16 <edlothiol> yes, except there's no room in the COLFLAGS, since colour values are unsigned shorts and all 16 bits seem to be in use already
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14:00:22 <nfogravity> OH i see
14:02:43 <nfogravity> but i could set the color value of the monster to be its hp pool, consistent with the data in output.cc, and then reverse it
14:04:40 <nfogravity> (on systems that support reverse)
14:04:41 <edlothiol> yes... you couldn't see the actual monster colour anymore, but that would work
14:04:52 <nfogravity> i'm okay with that
14:05:02 <nfogravity> the idea is that you tap ctrl-v twice
14:05:51 <nfogravity> i would make it something that goes away with keyboard release but i don't think there's any button like that in crawl and i don't want to buck a trend
14:06:15 <nfogravity> as in, you hold down ctrl-v and it shows monster hp pools, then you let go and it reverts
14:06:45 <nfogravity> though that might be more convenient actually
14:06:50 <edlothiol> I'm not sure that is even possible in curses
14:09:12 <edlothiol> ok, maybe it is in curses, but probably not in our input system
14:09:42 <nfogravity> how does the input system treat keys that are held down?
14:11:04 <edlothiol> it doesn't, it just reads key events
14:11:12 <nfogravity> that makes sense
14:11:12 <edlothiol> ok actually, it's probably not possible in curses
14:11:18 <nfogravity> yeah probably not
14:11:36 <nfogravity> if it was i think you guys would have implemented "holding down a button does nothing and tells the player he or she is an idiot"
14:13:09 <edlothiol> hehe :D
14:13:21 <Cheibriados> Mistagged staircase mimic on ^X display (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5374) by nubinia
14:13:22 <edlothiol> being able to hold down a button is important though, for tab
14:13:33 <nfogravity> i never lean on tab, i always mash
14:13:48 <nfogravity> i guess with the new code holding it down is okay
14:26:11 <nfogravity> oh this is actually very easy to implement then
14:26:32 <nfogravity> i just change get_mons_colour if the player has toggled ctrl-v
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14:32:12 <nfogravity> eh, that's probably not very good coding practice though
14:32:21 <nfogravity> maybe changing get_cell_glyph_with_class is better
14:33:23 <nfogravity> or get_mons_glyph rather, herp
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14:52:22 <nfogravity> question, quick up or down?
14:52:50 <nfogravity> currently in the icon representing damage level for monsters on the hud, monsters with wounds that can't be displayed get a black glyph
14:52:56 <nfogravity> i think light grey would be better
14:59:11 <edlothiol> hm... I'd guess it's black because that's the general background colour (so no glyph is actually visible)?
15:00:21 <nfogravity> yeah, but it's more information to know that you can't actually see the wounds they have
15:00:37 <nfogravity> and there's the flavor coming from the fact that most of these are undead
15:01:14 <nfogravity> seeing a zombie's health bar as grey could be very useful to a new player
15:02:49 <nfogravity> also can you take a look at colour.h for a moment, edlothiol?
15:03:08 <edlothiol> sure
15:03:14 <nfogravity> am i crazy or are a lot of these function prototypes kind of fucked?
15:03:48 <nfogravity> line 112 for example
15:04:35 <nfogravity> is it just stylistic to c++ that you can but don't have to name the variables in the header file, or are the names actually meaningful
15:06:31 <edlothiol> not sure what you mean
15:06:41 <edlothiol> line 112 is bool get_orb_phase(const coord_def& loc); for me
15:06:44 <nfogravity> right
15:06:48 <nfogravity> so why is the "loc" there
15:06:50 <nfogravity> it's a header file
15:07:03 <edlothiol> oh, ok
15:08:03 <nfogravity> am i crazy?
15:08:45 <edlothiol> well, they may be kind of helpful when looking at the header
15:09:11 <Cheibriados> Still Collapse / Overloaded after transformation back to normal (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5375) by XuaXua
15:09:11 <edlothiol> I don't know, they're probably not necessary, but I'd still feel they're part of the function signature
15:09:26 <nfogravity> i'm surprised it's even allowed. i guess as long as it's okay it's okay
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15:50:32 <nfogravity> coding question?
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15:55:16 <edlothiol> nfogravity: best to just ask the question
15:55:30 <nfogravity> wait no i got it, didn't #include i think
15:59:15 <nfogravity> yeah there we go, #include "mon-info.h"
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16:30:11 <ogsus> ipbt doesn't play well with some of the special characters in crawl ttyrecs - would it be somehow possible to make it parse correctly? or should i just look for a tool that will convert these characters?
16:40:03 <kilobyte> ogsus: ipbt should handle those just fine, it's probably a problem with your terminal
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16:42:01 <ogsus> kilobyte: really? can you try playing uh, !lg Zammy won mibe cv~~0.1. -ttyrec (the trees in the entry vault?)
16:42:42 <nfogravity> it seems like the textbackground command is pretty buggy
16:43:01 <nfogravity> console on windows doesn't like it at all
16:44:42 <ogsus> also, termplay can show the chars just fine, as well as 'head whatever.ttyrec'
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16:50:56 <nfogravity> cao/cdo use the unix libraries, right?
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17:05:07 <ogsus> kilobyte: i just tried playing back that ttyrec within putty with ipbt, and i'm still getting bad output
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17:17:18 <ogsus> i'm using latest urxvt, but i've also tried lilyterm, xfce-terminal, xterm, and now putty, i guess
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17:20:10 <BlastHardcheese> windows console is crap
17:21:36 <nfogravity> yup
17:24:46 <ogsus> from what i can see, ipbt can't handle A_ALTCHARSET (referring to randart's patches to ipbt, otherwise i have no idea what i'm talking about)
17:25:36 <rwbarton> ipbt's manual page says it doesn't support unicode output
17:27:57 <ogsus> rwbarton: so the default crawl charset uses unicode?
17:28:01 <rwbarton> yes
17:28:58 <ogsus> ah ok - wonder how hard it would be to make ipbt support it, or whether i should just find a way to convert unicode to ascii
17:30:23 <ogsus> one line in ipbt.c can make it display unicode, but not nicely - don't think it's being recorded into the parray correctly, so going backwards will result in corrupted display
17:47:30 <CIA-62> 03dolorous * r764c798ef183 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Typo fix.
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19:38:32 <nfogravity> can i get some help? i'd like to test this on a box that isn't mine before i do any more
19:39:29 <nfogravity> specifically i'd like someone on linux to see how this looks because the windows console has issues
19:40:00 <ogsus> nfogravity: what are you trying to test?
19:40:19 <nfogravity> i'm changing how enemy hp colour is displayed
19:40:44 <nfogravity> it was sort of hacked in in output.cc and the colour scheme was arbitrary and (i think) kind of ugly
19:41:21 <nfogravity> so i spent a while figuring out how init.txt works and i think i've got something much better now
19:41:38 <nfogravity> can you help? i'll make a patch for you
19:42:01 <ogsus> i'll try - might not be able to give feedback if it doesn't compile before i leave though :(
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19:44:00 <nfogravity> great thanks
19:44:28 <ogsus> hmm, didn't work - could you try a pastebin? maybe pocoo or sprunge?
19:45:42 <nfogravity> http://pastebin.com/4HCLfa9u
19:48:07 <nfogravity> on its own it should look identical to before, but if you add the line "enemy_hp_colour = green green yellow brown lightred red lightgrey" to your init.txt you should get something different
19:48:12 <ogsus> nfogravity: are you on trunk?
19:48:16 <nfogravity> yes
19:48:37 <ogsus> hmm, patch didn't apply properly with patch -p1 in root git dir
19:48:47 <nfogravity> i commited two times
19:48:52 <nfogravity> do i need to send both patches?
19:49:23 <ogsus> probably yes
19:49:26 <nfogravity> oh okay
19:49:42 <ogsus> well
19:49:57 <ogsus> if you do git diff HEAD HEAD~2
19:50:01 <ogsus> i think that's right
19:50:25 <chrisoelmueller> or format-patch -2
19:50:35 <chrisoelmueller> which keeps your author info and stuff
19:50:38 <monqy> _You see here the amulet of Fun {rMut Str+4 Int+3 Dam+4}.
19:50:40 <nfogravity> format-patch -2 gives two patches
19:51:15 <chrisoelmueller> yeah, it does
19:51:25 <nfogravity> that sounds fun
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19:51:50 <ogsus> yeah, just do git diff HEAD HEAD~2 > colourfix.patch - otherwise i'll have to funk around with order
19:52:27 <monqy> woops wrong cahnnel
19:52:30 <monqy> sorry crawl-dev
19:52:33 <monqy> :'(
19:52:58 <ogsus> nice amulet though, monqy
19:53:04 <nfogravity> pastebin is making me wair
19:53:08 <nfogravity> wait, rather
19:53:16 <ogsus> don't use pastebin - go with pocoo or sprunge.us
19:55:08 <nfogravity> http://pastebin.com/VfdGi7yK
20:01:54 <ogsus> nfogravity: ok, patch seems to have worked (think i gave you the wrong command but all is well with -R flag) compiling now
20:02:20 <nfogravity> hoorah! i guess it should have been HEAD~2 HEAD?
20:03:10 <ogsus> lol i think git diff HEAD~2 would have worked
20:03:34 <nfogravity> i figured that the + and - seemed a little strange
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20:10:45 <ogsus> so what i'm supposed to be looking at is the enemy hp colour display on the side, right? as well as the text?
20:10:57 <nfogravity> just the hp colour display on the side, right now
20:11:35 <nfogravity> the way i tested it was by smacking a critter to almost dead, then holding .
20:11:41 <Gretell> Dansul2 (L14 DsAr)  (Swamp:2)
20:12:35 <nfogravity> if you don't have the line in your init, the defaults are green green brown brown magenta red
20:12:44 <ogsus> ah, ok - i had them both side by side, and they look very similar
20:12:45 <ogsus> oh, ok
20:12:48 <ogsus> lemme see this again
20:12:56 <nfogravity> they should be different though
20:13:32 <ogsus> hmm - i'll actually switch it around completely to see more immediate effects
20:13:52 <nfogravity> yeah i tested it by doing "cyan cyan cyan cyan cyan cyan cyan"
20:14:25 <nfogravity> right now it has to be seven or i think it crashes, i'm gonna add some error-handling code once i know this is right
20:15:46 <nfogravity> anyway this isn't quite the end of the project, the reason i did all this work was so that i could use the enemy hp colour data in other places
20:18:21 <ogsus> nfogravity: afaict it's working - i didn't look at your patch so i don't know how color generation is done but either red or lightgrey wasn't working for me - looked black
20:18:56 <nfogravity> good to know
20:19:20 <ogsus> probably lightgrey
20:19:50 <nfogravity> can you check it quickly with "lightgrey lightgrey lightgrey lightgrey lightgrey lightgrey lightgrey"?
20:20:36 <nfogravity> i really want it to work on cao/cdo, since that's the console everyone uses anyway
20:20:49 <ogsus> yup, it's lightgrey
20:21:10 <nfogravity> lightgrey displays as a black box?
20:21:37 <ogsus> nfogravity: yes
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20:21:43 <ogsus> nfogravity: it might be my colour scheme
20:21:54 <nfogravity> that's strange, lightgrey is one of curses' 8 basic colours
20:21:57 <ogsus> which is another thing you have to watch out for
20:22:08 <nfogravity> well that's why i made this actually
20:22:10 <ogsus> yeah, i just looked through source, and saw a billion references to lightgrey
20:22:18 <rwbarton> item stacks can already have lightgrey backgrounds
20:22:40 <ogsus> let me check with a different terminal (and thus a different colour scheme)
20:23:25 <nfogravity> i'm not a huge fan of the block as it's implemented
20:23:29 <Eronarn> bright colors don't work as backgrounds in some terminals because someone decided that before i was born, or something like that
20:23:30 <ogsus> nope, still black
20:23:48 <rwbarton> lightgrey isn't a bright color though, it's just white
20:23:52 <rwbarton> or something
20:24:01 <nfogravity> it uses a command called textbackground that i don't trust
20:24:03 <ogsus> well, i just tried urxvt and a vte3 term, so no idea
20:24:33 <Eronarn> nfogravity: there are a few ways of setting colors of things in crawl
20:24:40 <Eronarn> so make sure you aren't using the wrong function
20:24:49 <nfogravity> i didn't write the code
20:24:52 <nfogravity> it's in .10.0
20:25:03 <Eronarn> (for example, you can't use elemental colors the same way you use real colors... which is super irritating)
20:25:19 <nfogravity> but the original code mades no references to lightgrey, it just uses RED GREEN MAGENTA
20:25:39 <rwbarton> well lightgrey isn't a standard monster health level colour
20:26:32 <nfogravity> well i guess that's... okay... then? it's still a confusing bug, i don't know why it wouldn't be okay with lightgrey
20:30:17 <Eronarn> to clarify, it works fine with textcolor(RED) but not textcolor(LIGHTGREY)?
20:30:30 <nfogravity> textbackground(LIGHTGREY) is the problem
20:32:34 <ogsus> lightgrey is the color you get when you cursor over the brown text in the charselect background, yes?
20:36:06 <Eronarn> nfogravity: does it also fail on LIGHTGREEN and friends
20:36:19 <nfogravity> i don't know, i'm on windows where all textbackground fails
20:36:36 <Eronarn> oh :P
20:37:38 <Eronarn> as far as i can tell it should work if you pass in the dark colors
20:39:25 <nfogravity> do you know why?
20:39:34 <ogsus> Eronarn: lightred works
20:39:51 <Eronarn> and lightgrey doesn't? that is weird
20:40:22 <ogsus> what's another light color?
20:40:32 <ogsus> i'll test all of them
20:41:32 <Eronarn> lightcyan, lightgreen, lightblue...
20:42:05 <Eronarn> actually i think i'm wrong, i guess it's lightgrey->white rather than darkgrey->lightgrey
20:42:09 <Eronarn> (i hate terminal colors so much)
20:42:44 <ogsus> yup, everything but lightgrey
20:43:20 <ogsus> which is weird because it works for sure on item backgrounds (if i'm not wrong it's the background for when there's a stack)
20:43:41 <nfogravity> welllll, sort of, ogsus
20:43:53 <rwbarton> maybe stacks use reverse video white instead of lightgrey background
20:43:56 <nfogravity> they do
20:44:20 <nfogravity> it's LIGHTGREY | REVERSE
20:44:55 <ogsus> ah, ok
20:45:08 <nfogravity> actually wait a second
20:45:20 <nfogravity> if i reverse on a blank space
20:45:25 <nfogravity> i should get a solid color, right?
20:48:03 <Eronarn> hmm, i can only find one place in the code that even sets something to lightgrey background
20:48:07 <Eronarn> i wonder if it even works
20:48:17 <nfogravity> is it in output.cc?
20:48:24 <Eronarn> menu.cc
20:48:53 <Eronarn> though in newgame.cc there's newgame.cc:    tmp->set_highlight_colour(LIGHTGRAY);
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21:00:45 <CIA-62> 03dolorous * r9b69d07270d0 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Tweak wording.
21:18:10 <Gretell> ryw (L26 MiMo) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (D:11)
21:18:12 <Gretell> buffalo66 (L10 HuWz) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (Lair:1)
21:18:18 <Gretell> ryw (L26 MiMo) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (D:11)
21:27:00 <rwbarton> that's a curious error
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21:59:22 <Zannick> yay tiles
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22:41:16 <nfogravity> hey it workds :D
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23:38:29 <Henzell> Palyth the Bringer of Light (L27 MiGl)  (Pan)
23:38:54 <BlastHardcheese> go team NULL
23:42:07 <Cheibriados> Changes to enemy HP colour code, and a new toggle (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5376) by nfogravity