00:29:14 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:35:46 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 01:15:53 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 01:51:57 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:16 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:16:19 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 02:18:21 -!- Ganrao| has quit [] 02:30:52 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:35:06 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:32:11 about yesterday's discussion about buffs, KoboldLord suggested changing RMsl so that it gives an AC bonus against ranged attacks. I like it. 03:32:18 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=49980#p49980 03:33:09 we still need to find a way to prevent players from tediously recasting defensive buffs when exploring (RMsl, ozo's armour, stoneskin, TC,...) 03:33:28 we don't want them permacastable, right? 03:38:39 not sure... being permacastable is still the best idea around 03:39:00 although too many buffs are a no-brainer 03:40:20 The problem with permacasted deffensive buff is that it completely removes tactical decisions about them. Learn them, activate them end of story. 03:40:32 A permanent bonus like that isn't very crawly. 03:40:41 It's almost like a NH intrinsic. 03:40:49 mostly just RMsl actually, it has way better effect/cost ratio than the others -- Ozo's and Stoneskin give but a few AC points, TC is expensive to recast for a very small gain 03:40:56 kind of yeah 03:41:41 stoneskin is quite good 03:41:46 I'm not a lover of permabuffs, just a hater of all other generic (rather than specific to a single spell) ideas proposed recently 03:41:50 ozo's melts a lot, so not a problem 03:42:17 but permacastable stoneskin is just free AC for EE, and quite a lot too at high earth levels 03:42:37 if training earth is supposed to give free bonus AC, that's okay. if not, its not. 03:43:56 i think low level buffs still being very useful in the late game is pretty bad really 03:44:56 then again, free lategame access from spellcasting precludes wearing real armor. to have both, you actually have to invest. so it might be kind of okay. 03:47:07 Ozocubu is 4+skill/3, Stoneskin 2+skill/5 03:47:50 yeah, but permanent stoneskin would actually be permanent. and you can use it with armor. 03:48:11 well, seems like permacast is going to be implement after all. We can activate it for all buffs, then tune spells for which it is problematic. 03:48:24 What are the downsides of perma-stoneskin? 03:48:30 You can never float in water or fly? 03:48:39 i dont think there are any? 03:48:43 due: almost none, that's the problem. 03:48:47 ah 03:48:58 mana drain 03:49:12 its level 2 and has a decent duration, so... 03:49:14 appart from the minor maxMP and MP regen penalties (which simulate recasting). 03:49:21 or is it level 3? i keep forgetting... 03:50:04 anyway, what kind of permcasting? 03:50:08 with permacast, reducing duration directly increase the MP penalties, so it can be an effective way to balance them. 03:50:33 galehar style? proper recast when safe? something actually permanent (how to incorporate fair rate?)? 03:50:44 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:power_duration#alternate_implementation 03:50:47 this kind 03:51:01 most interesting permaspell IMO is Necromutation 03:51:29 ring of flames could be nice too 03:51:32 since its downsides would hurt badly if you can't cancel it 03:51:53 ah, so you want to remove the ability to cancel it? 03:52:16 that would certainly make the downsides more relevant... 03:52:36 should be symmetric between permcasting and not permcasting if both are possible, though 03:54:07 Crawl is the only game / RPG system / story / fairy tale where it is possible to go back from lich without using a major artefact ("water of life" in one fairlytale) 03:54:28 kilobyte: you mean truly permanent? But how do you handle variations in spell success? 03:55:26 if becoming a Lich is permanent, I don't see it as a spell. Maybe a Kiku ultimate gift. 03:55:47 you'd cast it only once in the character's lifetime, so the success chance can be different 03:57:28 with torment, hunger and mutations being as nasty as they are currently, forcing a single god doesn't seem to be that good an idea 03:57:40 a less radical option would be making form cancelling cost mp and some turns, possibly depending on spell level (costs level mp, takes level turns). permanently turning into a lich forever shouldnt be a spell imo. 03:59:31 a phylactery that turns you into a lich could be a guaranteed artifact, at the bottom of tar or in some new portal or something. could just drain you by a lot instead of specifically requiring necromancy skill, or could still require necromancy and tmut skills to work. 03:59:43 A cast once spell is purely strategical. Spell success and MP become irrelevant. How to balance it? We have already removed almost all spells with a strategical effects. 04:00:58 an item that needs a fixed minimum level for some skills to be activated could work. 04:01:32 it would feel weirdly out of place... 04:01:46 Spell success is not quite irrelevant. If I only had a 10 % success chance on a major transmutation the mutating miscasts would probably discourage me from using that spell at that point. 04:01:52 not sure i want to hear the suggestions adding something like this would spawn 04:02:02 jle: except if you worship sif 04:02:16 except wizardry and brilliance... 04:02:45 galehar: Sure. But I felt it was worth pointing out. 04:02:45 can you steal a Lich's phylactery and use it for yourself? If so, you could use Boris' one. 04:03:36 heh. that would be kind of cool. i dont really know much about liches, but i think that would be a new thing. 04:03:55 jle: if you have a couple of !cm stashed, you can take a shot at 50% success with minimal skill investment. 04:05:42 with an item, success chance would automatically be relevant. you get only one shot, if you fail its gone. 04:05:54 Anyway, I really like this phylactery idea. Very thematic and interesting gameplay. 04:06:15 should there be a way to come back to life? 04:06:41 galehar: Yeah, spending consumables would generally work to circumvent that. I think you still need a fair bit of skill to get level 8/9 stuff have any chance of working, so a high level spell would still require a certain amount of investment. 04:06:56 alefury: I think I'd rather have a fixed minimum skill level rather than a chance (or maybe both) 04:07:20 a fixed minimum skill level feels wildly inappropriate in crawl :/ 04:07:47 especially after all the work that has gone into eliminating skill breakpoints 04:08:15 make it L9 necro/tmut, you cast it on a phylactery if you succeed you permanently turn into a Lich, if you fail the phylactery is destroyed. 04:09:05 Make one guaranteed at the bottom of Tar. Others can rarely spawn as awesome loot. 04:09:15 zig loot! :) 04:09:18 or be acquired 04:09:26 or a possible drop from liches 04:09:42 I'm not sure liches carry their phylactery with them 04:09:47 sounds dumb 04:09:54 at least, xykon doesn't 04:10:02 Would this go into the necronomicon? 04:10:02 heh 04:10:20 jle: it's already there 04:10:25 using a goblin minion doesn't seem any safer than that :p 04:10:31 :) 04:10:45 Right, rewrite of lich form, indeed. 04:10:46 we can also have some dumb liches that do carry their phylactery 04:11:27 i dont think you should need the necromut spell if its permanent. it just means you need the necronomicon or/and a scroll of amnesia 04:11:28 and we can have vaults with magical traps, powerful undead and a phylactery in the loot. 04:11:34 scroll only if you want to keep the book 04:11:56 what about water of life? should there be any way to turn back? 04:12:26 I don't think there should be any way back, no 04:12:54 There is the consideration that you can not restore your stats in lich form, I think. 04:12:54 you also need to have 9 spell slots free. That's significant. 04:13:29 Also, if you fail you might want to forget it, learn new spells, then you find a new one, forget some spells to make room to learn it again 04:13:34 You can't drink the potion, and the mummy restoration is unavailable. 04:13:36 becomes a significant amnesia cost 04:13:59 one of my unique ideas is a lich who lost her phylactery, cannot make a new one with her paws, and thus has to rely on her only spare racial life left. Mandatory pink colour. Talks about her grandma Iskenderun (species of the latter is firmly established...). 04:14:55 <3 04:15:03 jle: you can wait stat loss out, unless you're a DD. Can't heal rot unless you get that one specific rare wand, though. 04:15:33 not sure we need more lich uniques... especially not ones who would probably use ood. sounds awesome, though. 04:15:54 kilobyte: Think of the poor DD liches! 04:16:15 With their skeletal puppy dog eyesockets. 04:16:20 that's why it may be good to leave Necromutation as a memorized spell, you could then use it to slowly absorb potions. With a casting time of, say, 9 turns (applies to the initial casting for theme reasons, too). 04:16:20 Mietzsche (L8 DDEE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:7) 04:16:50 that sounds nice 04:16:53 alefury: having it as a spell is also very thematic. Becoming a Lich is a powerful magic. it is casting an epic spell. 04:18:40 indeed. if there is any point to the spell after turning into a lich, having it as a spell is good. 04:18:41 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:18:45 kilobyte: well, is it really a problem if DD can't become Lich? There's already plenty of spell/racial exclusions and I don't see a problem with this one. 04:19:26 We just need to completely disable them for DD or put a big warning when memorising it about stats not being restored anymore. ever. 04:19:43 could be a fun challenge for some people :) 04:19:45 I'm thinking more about curing rot 04:19:48 also, mutations 04:19:49 why forbid them? kilobyte's solution of slowly absorbing potions sounds cool. 04:20:14 no more tactical potion use, and the only strategic uses relevant to liches are curing rot and stats 04:20:41 in my big multi-Zig game, I went MAD with abusing Alter Self, before going lich 04:22:25 maybe just purge all mutations when you become a lich 04:22:38 hrm, predates death milestones. Even though there are ones from that game later :p 04:22:41 !log . char=feae 04:22:41 13. KiloByte, XL27 FeAE, T:245072: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20101119-134939.txt 04:24:14 especially the glorious: 101001 | Hive:2 | Killed by miscasting Alter Self 04:26:20 alefury: currently it's a pain to find cure mut, it'd be a large buff of Necromutation 04:26:44 well, dont want liches with innate clarity etc, right? 04:27:03 yeah 04:28:02 i dont think curing your mutations is innately more valuable than fixing your mutations 04:28:41 depends on whether you're a non-scumming player vs a rotten abuser 04:28:43 because good mutations are actually quite good, and as a lich nothing could ever screw them up. 04:28:52 right 04:29:35 could just suppress all the good ones, but that would be badly inconsistent... 04:30:45 yeah 04:30:49 so when in lich form, the spell gets renamed to something like "magical extraction" and you cast it on potions to get their effect in 9 turns. Only !HW, !Cu and !RA? 04:31:15 ??potions 04:31:15 potions[1/2]: agility, berserk rage, blood, brilliance, coagulated blood, confusion, cure mutation, decay, degeneration, experience, gain dexterity, gain intelligence, gain strength, healing, heal wounds, invisibility, levitation, magic, might, mutation, paralysis, poison, porridge, resistance, restore abilities, slowing, speed, strong poison, water 04:31:30 even with no renaming it would work (you transmute potions into your necrotic form), but yeah 04:32:02 yeah right, keeping the name is better, it works fine 04:32:04 hm, buff potions would still be valuable. allow them for consistency, or block them because...? 04:32:17 Gain Foo are mutations 04:32:22 i mean might 04:32:24 etc 04:32:25 speed 04:32:51 experience is also strategic 04:32:52 invisibility, levitation, magic 04:32:59 not sure about might and co -- disabling tactical use is why I'm proposing that 9 turns casting time 04:33:33 magic is nothing if you need to spend mana for the spell 04:34:01 note that you can already can use them to prebuff now. permanent necromut at no mana cost would be a significant buff, though. 04:34:42 levitation might be borderline useful if you are desperate for spell scrolls 04:34:48 9 spell slots are maybe an okay cost for being able to prebuff and drink potions of exp. 04:35:16 because for curing rot you can let it stack up for a while and then pay amnesia scrolls 04:36:36 (you can also do this for potions of exp) 04:37:48 i dont think allowing buff potions would be a problem. with 9 turns to cast using more than one is extremely impractical, the mana cost is quite high, it costs 9 spell slots that you could use for other things. also, consistency with hw etc. 04:38:49 I'd say no way to Borgnjor/cure confusion/DDoor/handle holies could be argued to balance mana problems somehow. 95% of the time you're better off but that 5% kills you dead. 04:39:35 potions of exp don't matter at that time, you get 20250 xp when any pan lord comes at 15k a pop 04:40:11 i think it would mostly just annoy people. but yeah, its not that significant. 04:41:18 oh. another spell that should be discussed re permcasting: regeneration 04:41:20 may be argued to be on one boat with Gain Foo, but probably not worth arguing this early into brainstorming 04:42:48 1. is the food cost enough? 2. should the food cost shut off at full hp? 04:44:40 is anyone wikifying necromut? 04:44:57 or keeping notes or something? or implementing it? 04:45:18 a fsck finished, I'm busy rejoicing and continuing to restore that system 04:46:06 hm. how hard would these necromut changes be to implement? 04:46:29 im thinking about trying, but i have no clue if i can do it. 04:48:35 item targeted spell, introducing phylactery: easy. the actual permanent lich form effect: no idea, probably a lot of little stuff would need changing. actually saving the permanent change: i dont have a clue about how saves work. 04:50:05 almost no work, less than what adding, say, a new transformation would 04:50:32 (I made a 1/4-hearted attempt at bad forms for Polymorph Other recently) 04:53:08 so should i just try? 04:53:37 or would it be more work to review a patch than to just do it yourself? :P 04:54:36 I'd say it's mostly design work 04:55:14 most of that seems to be already done to me 04:55:25 and I really wouldn't want to do this without proper discussion -- this is a spell that's used by a majority of Zig runners 05:00:11 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-287-g3173c5e 05:11:32 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:17:33 regarding potions, I'd the spell should only target HW, curing, RA and exp. 05:18:02 the other are mostly irrelevant with th 9 turn cost so let's just disable them. 05:18:45 kilobyte: i like temporary bad forms as a poly other effect 05:19:44 hrm, the wiki keeps mumbling about edit lock expiring 05:19:45 alefury: I guess you can take a shot at implementing as soon as there is some consensus about it. 05:20:29 I'm editing the necromutation page, but doing some actual work most of the time, so please don't try to edit it right now 05:21:32 for bad forms, my current pile of idea has: animated tree (-move -TELE, good AC+GDR, slots: weapon, shield, rings), 05:22:13 porcupine (tiny, bat-level attack, passive spines, no slots at all), 05:23:14 granite statue (-move -TELE -act at all :p, great AC+GDR+damage reduction; not a real form but existing statue+petrification, short duration) 05:24:36 I considered jelly but it has problems that seem to be insurmountable, mostly related to eating habits. For example, a desperate starving person would want to abuse the wand to eat a pile of junk, etc. 05:25:13 existing bat could work as a bad form too -- it's useful only in rare corner cases 05:26:18 one of old writeups has wisp, with bad control of movement. Could be interesting too -- melded all inventory? 05:37:49 -!- vinniec has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:42 hey, i need some help with dcss crash 05:39:35 at the end of each chapter of the tutorial the game crashes 05:40:11 searching i found this https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4538 05:41:10 could solve? I helped to understand what should I do? 05:42:00 *you help me to understand... 05:42:40 well, at least you're not missing anything. It crashes instead of putting you back in the level selection menu. 05:42:57 so no big deal. 05:44:12 I tried to figure out this one. It crashes when trowing the game ended exception. Not sure how to debug it. Might need to use git bissect to find out the cause. 05:46:07 galehar: I think I'm too inexperienced to understand you 05:54:04 the last message wasn't really addressed to you but to other devs. 05:54:44 you just don't have to worry about this bug, just restart the game and select the next tutorial 05:55:10 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:39 uhm ok 05:56:06 bui i have already open a bug page: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5362 galehar 06:00:38 well yes, thanks for reporting the bug, we'll look into it. 06:01:10 Hmm, an idea for CAO/CDO, automatically copy the init file from trunk to latest version when setting it up? 06:05:23 git interface, with a way to cherry-pick edits to/from stable versions! 06:05:26 * kilobyte ducks. 06:07:47 kilobyte: !!! 06:08:42 hey, I keep my config in git and merge changes from init.txt shipped with Crawl :p 06:09:41 it's sad that this is needed at all -- the default config should be empty except for commented out stuff 06:09:48 this mod is now implemented from standard source? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4538 06:09:48 this is a part of ouch.cc : 06:09:48 #endif // WIZARD 06:09:49 if (crawl_state.game_is_tutorial()) 06:09:49 { 06:09:50 crawl_state.need_save = false; 06:09:50 if (!non_death) 06:09:51 tutorial_death_message(); 06:09:51 screen_end_game(""); 06:09:52 } 06:09:53 but for me the game crash the same 06:17:05 kilobyte: I'm sorry, I speak little English, you could explain it better? 06:17:33 galehar: tavern: s/to being/from being/ 06:21:42 also, this, oh god yes: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=49974#p49974 06:23:00 what does "spell damage" mean for spells like static discharge or conjure ball lightning 06:24:37 ??kickbutt 06:24:38 kickbutt[1/1]: Each # represents one kickbutt of power. 06:27:21 elliptic: could just show damage per ball, or per zap, and mark them as potentially multihitting (asterisk or something) 06:27:49 these numbers are pretty meaningless 06:28:06 they are meaningful for most spells 06:28:28 anyway, some measure of spell power also needs to be displayed for buffs etc, the spells where average damage is not so cleared could just use that 06:28:35 s/cleared/clear 06:29:02 this sounds more confusing than the current system then 06:29:55 i doubt it. the current system is incredibly bad. the scale alone is impenetrable to anyone who didnt read up on it. 06:30:50 the only thing the current power bar accomplishes is telling people that training their spells past low failure has a point 06:30:57 but the point is that most spells can't just be compared using some measure of raw damage 06:31:06 it is misleading to claim that they can 06:31:16 i dont think so 06:31:29 people are used to this 06:31:52 from literally almost every other game 06:32:07 if you see a damage number, its clear that you have to consider the side effects 06:32:27 just seeing spell power tells you nothing at all, seeing a damage bar to compare to other spells is information you can use to compare 06:32:46 trying out the spells and seeing how well they work is better information 06:32:46 its not enough for knowing what is better to cast on its own of course 06:33:01 with the amount of randomization in crawl, not really 06:33:25 you can't describe spells simpler than a whole learndb paragraph 06:33:26 its mostly not that relevant anyway, but something should be done about the silly power bar 06:33:34 I agree that spell power bar isn't very useful in most cases, but replacing it with something else for some small subset of spells seems like a bad idea to me 06:33:51 90% of conjurations isnt a small subset 06:34:07 anyway, afk, dentist 06:57:11 -!- vinniec1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:10 -!- vinniec has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:02:49 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:40 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:09:23 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:06 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:52 Does anyone have an idea how to tell CAO Usage Statistics that it should count CDO 0.10 games? 07:25:30 dpeg: I've sent greensnark a pull request to fix that and a couple other things 07:31:19 cool, many thanks! 07:32:03 The necromutation proposal is intriguing, by the way. 07:34:41 -!- Twinge_ is now known as Twinge 07:36:32 if there are any particular statistics you are interested in, by the way, I can try to get Sequell to tell them to us 07:37:20 elliptic: nah, I just want to show Usage Statistics the tournament bump :) 07:44:30 dpeg: what about the flora variety proposal? Any thought on it? https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3901 07:46:56 definitely, needs moar piranha plants 07:47:22 burning bushes having directed long-range fire spit is iffy 07:48:58 galehar: didn't read it, have seen so many plant ideas. Will read upon your recommendation. 07:52:43 this one has tiles :) 07:57:26 There is an inherent problem with stationary monsters, though. 07:59:37 crawl is magic, add non-stationary plants 07:59:57 If you want walking monsters, why use plants? 08:00:16 we have two mobile plant monsters and people love them both 08:00:25 the idea of a walking plant is quite flavorful 08:37:47 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:43:42 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:51 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:47 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48:09 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:49:48 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:53:19 fleeing monsters have a low chance of attacking, which makes them stop fleeing. Weird. Remove? (mon-act.cc:1829) 08:53:33 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3905 08:54:57 fleeing monsters should have a chance of stopping fleeing 08:55:02 I don't see the issue 08:55:16 makes them more interesting 08:55:33 but only if they have a ranged attack? 08:55:55 -!- Ripplez has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:26 galehar: I'd be less afraid if I had a ranged attack and was at range... 08:56:43 is this the place to offer a feature request? 08:56:53 for crawl i mean 08:57:59 Ripplez: sort of, yes 08:58:13 Ripplez: if it is a good idea, you'll be asked to jot it down somewhere :) 08:59:08 id like to offer two. 1) please make bleed damage act as a function of the enemy monsters HD. or size. or something that allows it to scale even slightly against higher enemies 08:59:41 it already scales based on the monster's HP 08:59:51 and 2) i am not sure if this is true or not in 0.10 but if not, if we id a weapon with a pain brand, can we have the option to train necromancy? 09:00:05 if these two things are already true, then sorry for bringing it up 09:00:16 I like 2). 09:00:19 2) has been discussed before 09:00:21 I don't like it 09:00:28 Ripplez: that means no 09:00:42 okay then. thanks for listening 09:00:44 -!- Ripplez has left ##crawl-dev 09:01:00 wow, that was quick :) 09:01:13 I just don't think it makes much sense... how are you becoming a better necromancer by using a whip? 09:01:38 it makes more sense with an enhancer staff though, so maybe 09:02:24 skill does affect what it does, so it can be assumed that you are somehow using necromancy while whacking people with the whip 09:02:34 elliptic: I don't care about that... I believe that the game would be better if high-end weapons used more than one skill (I made some quick comments on that in various places). Usually, I'd think of another weapon skill, but with Pain asking for Nec I'd be happy to have a magical skill in there. 09:03:29 If gameplay improves, I would generally be willing to bend flavour. 09:03:54 to me, it (and the enhancer staves) seem like more of a passive thing 09:04:14 I'm not sure you'd ever want to train necro just for a pain weapon and not memorize a single necro spell. 09:04:25 galehar: if you didn't have necro spells 09:04:26 galehar: yes, that is why I think it's fine. 09:04:33 so I doubt it would improve anything 09:04:48 anyway, your game :) 09:04:52 Eronarn: then you'd probably not train necro just for the pain weapon. not worth it. 09:05:05 you actually probably would train necro just for the pain weapon 09:05:13 galehar: early on you would, yeah 09:05:27 can still pick up spells later 09:05:32 dpeg: we need the advice from the old wise guy meditating on top of his mountain 09:05:34 -!- vinniec1 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:05:37 and pain *is* immensely useful 09:05:38 galehar: 09:05:39 (between 2 games of brogue) 09:05:46 I'd buy a book from a store for a necro spell to train necro with, even if I don't really care to use the skill 09:05:59 or you could go kiku 09:06:15 I gave it to you :) Asking for more than one skill would be interesting for meleeist, offer variety, xp sinks and decisions. 09:06:32 -!- vinniec has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:45 dpeg: I think "need to find a necro spell" is interesting, see 09:06:46 so, about fleeing monsters. Shouldn't they blink_away instead of doing a random_blink when they read the scroll? 09:06:55 galehar: yeah, that sounds good 09:07:19 elliptic: I was talking in a broader context, but I think you got what I meant. 09:07:47 dpeg: sure, having less narrow uses for skills is generally good... pain weapons already do that fine though :) 09:08:48 elliptic: I agree that "find some Nec spell" is a funny little early-ish side quest. On the other hand, it feels a bit like jumping through a hoop. Either way is okay, Pain is good. 09:12:23 it definitely does feel like jumping through a hoop if you really don't intend to cast the necro spell you learned at all (say, if you are in heavy armour and can't yet) 09:12:34 yes 09:12:55 however this sort of hoop is really more general than just this situation 09:13:34 It would be better if knowing skills of many branches affects you negatively (success, say. Still hoop jumping for the plate guy but there is interaction for anyone else who has some spell. 09:13:37 it is fairly common for heavy armour guys to take off their armour, memorize a spell, then put the armour back on... now they can't cast the spell, but they can train the skill 09:13:44 *knowing spells of many skills 09:13:47 oh my 09:13:59 elliptic: yes 09:14:40 I don't think the alternative of forcing people to have the spell castable at a given success rate is better though 09:15:05 maybe memorisation shouldn't be affected by armour (unlike casting) :P 09:15:34 Zaba: comes up from time to time, probably reasonable 09:15:48 Zaba: that might make sense, yeah 09:16:20 dpeg: putting some penalty on knowing spells of many schools could be good, yeah 09:17:16 we discussed this in quite some depth some time ago, but unfortunately there wasn't something (yet) I could pin down 09:17:51 the simplest version of this that I remember was to make knowing spells from many different schools take extra spell slots 09:18:14 yes... that or success penalty seem most straightforward 09:18:17 i think the extra spell slot idea is a good one though i didn't like the specific numbers from last time 09:18:40 There are some conditions: you want commutativity (order of learning spells doesn't matter) etc... I think there's a forum thread about this. 09:18:56 yeah, it sucks though 09:19:07 probably a bad idea anyway 09:19:10 alefury: forum sucks? 09:19:16 the thread sucks 09:19:25 its very long, and has long posts (some of them by me) 09:19:33 dpeg: commutativity is easy to handle... just pick a function f(n) and make knowing spells from n distinct spell schools cost f(n) extra slots 09:19:34 alefury: punishing school breadth is good, imo. 09:19:56 probably f(0)=f(1)=f(2)=0 is reasonable, not sure after that 09:20:18 i like the current direction better: trying to turn most buffs into tactical tools that you dont want to have up at all times 09:20:23 elliptic: I guess my main worry with spell slots would be interface: have to tell players how much slots they get back etc. 09:20:47 that way everyone learning tons of low level spells becomes less of a problem 09:20:47 f(n) = n-2 is one option that would be pretty simple to understand 09:20:50 alefury: these are two different issues, imo. With a little overlap. 09:20:54 elliptic: true 09:21:03 a level 2 or 3 spell really shouldnt be useful anymore in the late game :/ 09:21:18 not sure if it is enough of a penalty though, thinking about a spell success or spell power penalty could be a better idea 09:21:23 dpeg: school breadth comes mostly from low hanging fruit 09:21:26 there the numbers are harder though 09:21:34 if low hanging fruit is foul in the late game, problem solved 09:22:07 elliptic: it might not be enough, but it's a good start. 09:22:13 actual generalist casters that train multiple schools to middle levels are fine imo 09:22:15 To be honest, I have no idea how the spell sets of good players' winning casters look like. 09:22:26 !log . 09:22:26 1319. elliptic, XL25 HaAK, T:75091: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/elliptic/morgue-elliptic-20120228-132245.txt 09:22:39 !log . defe 09:22:40 10. elliptic, XL27 DEFE, T:97023: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/elliptic/morgue-elliptic-20120226-145309.txt 09:22:44 two random examples :) 09:23:12 six schools for the AK 09:23:30 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 09:23:34 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:35 the proj. noise and butterflies weren't used with that char 09:23:56 nine for the FE 09:24:29 one problem that came up in the tavern thread was background balance 09:24:44 wizards, transmuters: screwed. FE: not screwed. 09:24:57 well, spell slots aren't very tight early on 09:25:27 a wizard could (in theory) learn all his spells at level 3 09:25:30 the thing I don't like about the spell slot proposal though is that I'm not sure it would actually make anyone learn different spells 09:25:39 at which point he will hardly have enough slots for that 09:25:48 it would just be a general spellcaster nerf (not a bad thing) 09:26:08 elliptic: yes. Success would do better (not sure about power since many of the spells we're talking about are lower level). 09:26:19 elliptic: yes, exactly 09:26:24 high schools could lower success of low schools 09:26:45 so just punish assymetric training, instead of a varied spell list 09:26:49 i think that also came up 09:26:55 high schools lowering success of low schools is a possibility, yes... but now coming up with reasonable numbers becomes really hard 09:26:58 alefury: not good... more hoops 09:27:04 the thread has a lot of info, but its a highly unpleasant read. 09:27:20 dpeg: yeah :( 09:27:22 * dpeg recalls with disgust the times when I turned threads like this into wiki pages. 09:27:24 well, if you have 6 schools and all are equal, I'd say there should still be some penalty 09:27:38 it is just that the penalty should be weighted towards lower schools 09:27:42 elliptic: I think pure number of schools is best measure. 09:28:22 That number could be applied to schools in different ways, I agree. (So that you can work out of the penalty by spending more xp into the skill.) 09:28:49 why is projected noise still a thing 09:29:07 bye and thanks :) 09:29:07 -!- vinniec has left ##crawl-dev 09:29:36 Eronarn: because removing a hex spell makes me sad, so I've been hoping that someone would come up with a way to fix it 09:29:51 hm. 0.11: the era of caster nerfs 09:30:16 elliptic: the solution is to add several new hex spells while cutting it 09:30:50 alefury: sounds like a plan 09:30:50 eronarn: that would work too, yes 09:31:25 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:41 one spell that would be easy and fill a good niche: a hex spell that can para/charm/conf enemies that attack you in melee 09:31:45 gaze-based 09:31:58 like the eyeballs muts, but temporary and power based 09:32:28 i like ranged constriction for hexes :) 09:32:41 what's broken with projected noise? 09:33:13 it lets you skip tomb:3, among other things. 09:33:29 which is a bit much for a level 1 spell, maybe 09:33:39 alefury: a spell that makes illusory shackles that only hold you if you believe they are real 09:33:46 projected noise could be power based. the range of casting and how much the noise scatters 09:34:24 that would at least make silly abuse like my recent zig less easy 09:35:08 galehar: projected noise lets you do stuff from out of LOS and i don't see why we should allow that when we try to block pretty much every other out of LOS exploit 09:35:09 not that i would oppose removing it outright. i know nobody who uses it in 'regular' gameplay 09:35:45 PN is probably better suited for an one-off effect rather than a spell. 09:36:14 scrolls of noise being targeted when identified might be nifty 09:36:35 we should just cut the effect, don't try to preserve it because of nostalgia 09:36:49 alefury: yes! 09:37:07 actually Eronarn has a point. also unided/ided inconsistency would be new, and probably bad. 09:37:18 Eronarn: unreliable crowd control effects like fear, fog, noise can be interesting 09:37:35 dpeg: sure, but they should be on-screen effects 09:38:00 I agree 09:38:16 i think hexes should get more of that kind of stuff, btw 09:38:30 it'd mean that it has two aspects: stealthy, discreet stabbing or chaotic, confused melee 09:38:34 darkness sounds so awesome 09:38:45 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:38:45 i didnt get to try it yet, though 09:39:06 id like to have it on a zigger with firestorm 09:39:08 there are a number of decent Hex spell proposals, I've just never been enough of a hexer to officially support some of them 09:39:28 i'd like to submit some new hex and tmut spells for .11 09:39:39 good 09:40:03 the recent power boost to cause fear/ mass confusion made both pretty good 09:40:17 what about that slowy freezy thing? 09:40:19 i'd really like it if we could get a terror spell already :P 09:40:29 (like monster fear: things can't approach) 09:42:08 let me repeat what I said here earlier when now one was around 09:42:09 about yesterday's discussion about buffs, KoboldLord suggested changing RMsl so that it gives an AC bonus against ranged attacks. I like it. 09:42:12 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=49980#p49980 09:42:14 we still need to find a way to prevent players from tediously recasting defensive buffs when exploring (RMsl, ozo's armour, stoneskin, TC,...) 09:42:17 we don't want them permacastable, right? 09:42:31 why AC instead of EV 09:42:34 or SH 09:43:05 because it naturally lose its effectiveness against stronger attacks 09:43:05 galehar: I agree that permacasting for RMsl etc is not so hot. 09:43:34 We don't have to tell players the mechanics, right? 09:43:49 ? 09:44:08 or we implement permacast for all spells and then individually tune it so it becomes very expensive for some (short duration) or impossible (glow) 09:44:09 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44:12 alefury: they need to know that RMsl makes them better against ranged attacks, not how it is working in the background. 09:44:12 i think i proposed this last tiem but i'd like to see: air spell that deflects only small projectiles (and also expels ostile clouds), dmsl still around but with a saner formula and now reflects missiles 09:44:57 hey, sorry for not being around the last few days. got sucked into the tournament. I'm still going to send out that mail to c-r-d like I said, I just need to catch up on some irc stuff I missed 09:44:57 evilmike: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 09:45:23 evilmike: <3 09:45:27 haha. "sorry, i was busy playing crawl" 09:45:46 I somehow got the insane notion in my head that getting two allrune wins in 3 days was a good idea... 09:46:06 Do it for the team! 09:46:07 also moving one spell out of air entirely might help it feel less same-y 09:46:35 Eronarn: player buff though -- missile protection from various sources 09:47:07 dpeg: well, the spells should be weakened 09:47:17 but also i think having them be in the same school is boring 09:47:48 evilmike: at least you set up a 10 million+ DDEE highscore that i can sniper at some point 09:48:03 perhaps 09:48:07 I already got my sniper 3 banner 09:48:49 for example: a hex version that is not a huge boost to defense, but makes misses hurt nearby enemies (like reflection but not back to the original firer 100% of the time) 09:49:29 wasnt there some talk about overhauling ranged combat in general? 09:49:41 03galehar * rcb4b11c83579 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc teleport.cc teleport.h): Make fleeing monster blink_away when reading the scroll. 09:49:51 03galehar * r20f5c9dfeb90 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Simplify. 09:49:54 might have been about making the formulas less psychotic 09:50:05 also, I like this initiative to make cool new hexes 09:50:35 witch background 09:52:30 Eronarn: there is a Brogue armour ego for that... pretty cool. (Advantage: no recasting.) 09:54:36 Brogue has pretty good armour/weapon egos, btw. I plan to write a review on them (and on items in general). Perhaps DCSS can steal something from there. 09:55:09 brogue has awesome items in general 09:55:24 alefury: well, there are some stinkers... but overall, yes. 09:55:32 it kind of has to, because no spells 10:00:20 brogue is a very good game 10:00:58 dpeg: i really like the part of your interview where you talk about brogue and how it gets away with some stuff because its short 10:02:33 it got me thinking about the food clock in crawl. maybe tightening the food clock wouldnt be that great. tightening the piety clock might work better. play fast or lose favor. this could be done by increasing piety gain and piety decay. 10:03:14 some gods dont care much about piety, though, and some gods dont have proper piety decay 10:12:05 (just back) Good points, alefury. We really want clocks, but food might be subpar. 10:13:33 i like what the food clock in brogue does, but i really hate dying to it. in a long game like crawl it would be even worse i think. 10:13:38 food is still probably better overall, since that actually forces you forward, rather than encourage you 10:14:19 the ddee i played this weekend had abnormally bad luck with food, and I was actually forced to abandon lair and search for a food vault in D. Weird and unexpected, but pretty fun 10:14:39 crawl never has that sort of thing post-lair though, and even pre-lair I think I've only had 2 games like that, ever 10:14:56 evilmike: thats why i still kind of like the minimum spell hunger proposal. it would make food (and gourmand and energy) affect your tactical options. cant prance around blasting everything with firestorm if you have no food. 10:15:30 evilmike: clocks can come in many forms. For example ADOM's corruption. 10:15:51 Jordan7hm (L1 DsWr) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:1) 10:15:57 true. that's also the one major roguelike where you can actually age to death 10:16:55 not sure that was such a great idea, though :) 10:17:14 on that subject: bee rooms. they should be less filled with bees and have a lot fewer honeycomb/royal jelly. 10:17:37 jeanjacques: true. Can you read/edi .des files? 10:17:42 *edit 10:17:56 the actual "bee room" is mostly lua 10:18:00 but there are a ton of bee vaults 10:18:10 i understand some basic things reading them never tried editing anything 10:18:23 if toning them down (eg in food) is a priority, I could put it on my list of things to do 10:18:34 I wont get to it until after the tournament though 10:18:38 there was some discussion about making monster rooms slightly more interesting in layout, also 10:18:40 evilmike: not urgent, eh 10:18:52 dpeg: tournament is more urgent :p 10:18:54 evilmike: small ones are okay, but they can get huge. 10:19:04 by putting a few pillars in sometimes or rounding the walls or whatever 10:19:08 evilmike: very cool competition, checked today 10:19:40 about the *gigantic* bee rooms you can sometimes get, I believe this is a side effect of them being added to layout_roguey 10:19:52 where, they can be much larger. I'm not totally certain though, just remember hearing that 10:20:05 evilmike, that's correct 10:20:08 I believe that jeanjacques has a good point: too much guaranteed food -- can afford to reduce slowly, a bit for each new release (like the level cuts). And it is true that killer bees are interesting early opponents, but there is no point in 20 of them (that will just force you to teleport). Early on, five would do. 10:20:18 oh, also bee rooms should sometimes generate with the door already open :P 10:20:42 dpeg: well, bee vaults aren't guaranteed... some games you get 3 or 4 of them, other games you get 0 10:20:44 the problem with the bees is massive piety gain for some gods too 10:20:46 there is not too much guaranteed food. actually there is very little guaranteed food. imo a little more guaranteed food and a lot less random food would work better. 10:21:03 I think everyone agrees that bee vaults should be less common later on 10:21:14 Some usability project/research news: Mikko Rajanen (the guy behind UKKOSS research) is writing a paper on the DCSS usability projects (and has asked me to coauthor as well) 10:21:15 and also not be really huge (7x12...) 10:21:18 though the orc/kobold rooms have the same problem i suppose 10:21:50 alefury: I mentioned something like this a few days ago, but it was a really rough idea. Basically along the lines of, some guaranteed amount in nutrition of permafood per floor, and less food from chunks 10:21:52 here's an idea: limit the maximum amount of monsters in special rooms, independent of size 10:22:04 to something sane like 10.. 10:22:16 but I should emphasize its a very rough idea and it's based on a hunch that permafood is better than chunks 10:22:23 Keskitalo: great! Finnish again? 10:22:45 Nope, this time it'll be in a readable language! :) 10:22:58 Hungarian, how nice 10:23:19 evilmike: agreed 10:23:26 well, maybe 10 is a little too low.. 10:23:44 Zaba: it could vary by room type 10:23:55 i'm not sure about the time frame except the deadline is 9th March 10:23:57 some of the special rooms could focus less on trash, and more on actual threat 10:24:04 that, too, but I think that too much is too much regardless of room type :P 10:24:19 for instance, orc rooms dont even start spawning orc knights until they are well into the "not very dangerous" territory 10:24:25 and they dont ever spawn warlords 10:24:40 in a sense, monster rooms are the opposite of vaults: instead of few, interesting monsters, you have many, not so interesting ones. 10:24:42 evilmike: yeah 10:24:54 or kobold demonologists 10:25:06 dpeg: early bee and kobold rooms can be interesting threats; later, not so much 10:25:35 the most interesting part of kobold/orc rooms is that they pick up weapons, and you usually cant advance on them 10:25:37 -!- ctair has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:09 kobold rooms have a lot of branded and ranged weapons, keeps things interesting 10:26:09 there was an old idea about kobold demonologists... limiting them to minor demon and letting them be rare early spawns 10:26:09 I guess eustachio fills that role now 10:26:15 I've pretty much never found orc rooms interesting though 10:26:27 yeah, kobolds are better 10:26:29 IMO random orc bands do a better job of that 10:26:38 I experimented a bit locally with putting caster orcs in orc rooms 10:26:59 band spawns achieve a similar effect to special rooms, in a better way 10:27:10 massed priests in a room doesnt work well, because you cant really fight them in a reasonable way (better if it's in the open) 10:27:38 what i also like about special rooms is that dealing with them right there and then is very efficient, but letting them spread across the level is safer 10:28:19 I have to admit, I really enjoy it when I can hold down tab and kill 20 monsters in a second 10:28:33 oh, also there are undead rooms 10:28:38 they could use work too 10:28:47 those are probably the most boring 10:28:48 a lot of work 10:29:04 yeah... they show up late and contain very few interesting monsters 10:29:07 undead rooms have a strangely limited monster set, yeah 10:29:16 mostly just necrophages are interesting at all 10:29:31 can they have ghouls? 10:29:39 <3 ghoul bands in crypt 10:29:41 the corridor entrances makes them boring as well 10:29:41 i dont think so 10:29:55 adom tension rooms try to fix that corridor issue 10:30:08 not that it works great 10:30:19 how often do they get corridors? 10:30:36 or does a single door count? 10:30:39 dpeg: this is why I want to give the layout more variety 10:30:50 sometimes a double door, for instance 10:30:51 i think they nearly always have corridors 10:31:48 it might also be interesting to trap the player inside with a hazard, like a cloud generator that is switched on behind you when you open the door 10:32:22 would trap the monsters inside too, though 10:32:31 players will just teleport and be left with a sealed box (also the monsters will die to clouds) 10:32:31 except miasma for undead 10:33:12 also, could just switch it off again after a while or when the player leaves 10:33:41 just something that prevents immediately backing into the corridor might be fun. 10 turn cloud or so. 10:33:54 you could use a trigger to place a cloud with a long duration (power, I think it's called) 10:33:58 could spice up deeper rooms a little 10:35:45 one thing about traps like that, is they should be fairly immune to autoexplore (ie they should stop it before the trap is set off), and its also good to have them be sufficiently "ominous" 10:36:14 like, a mysterious unguarded piece of loot in a distinct room. that tends to make players a bit paranoid. 10:36:18 i dont know. either stop autoexplore, or make it impossible to recognize with manual exploration. 10:36:48 if it looks just like any other room then autoexploring into it is fine, yes 10:36:49 there are many corridors with doors at the end, so no need to worry in the case of special rooms imo 10:36:59 impossible to recognize is a lot harder... it's possible if the vault is *tiny*, but anything bigger and I think it's pointless to try to disguise it 10:37:20 hm.. the maximum size of non-roguey special rooms is 9x9, it seems. 10:37:45 zaba: 81 bees is still a lot, unless you are including the walls 10:37:46 80 bees and a queen yay 10:37:51 (the formula is 5 + random2avg(6, 2), and then 2 is substracted for the walls) 10:38:01 zaba: that's 8x8 max 10:38:17 okay (I don't remember what random2avg does :P) 10:38:24 63 bees and a queen yay! 10:38:52 probably 30 monsters is about the maximum we ever want 10:40:59 -!- ctair has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:41:43 also, at the moment, kobold and orc rooms are not packed - that is, only 3/4 is filled with monsters 10:41:55 but bee/undead/jelly rooms are packed 10:42:25 jelly rooms are the best ones, I think. Even though they are always the worst when you find them 10:44:39 they also scale with the dungeon depth a lot better than the other room types, iirc 10:45:14 Oh yes, the sweet sweet terror of jelly rooms. 10:45:29 ugh 10:45:39 holy great mace ettins, the worst 10:45:53 (wrong channel) 10:48:03 dpeg: Nice interview btw! 10:48:15 jeanjacques: how do they compare to distortion chaos ettins? 10:48:26 I was also impressed of the number of survey answers when I did mine - already over 1300 or so 10:48:36 Keskitalo: thank you. Most people seem to like it. I had no idea what I was doing. 10:49:05 those thankfully only (mostly) occur in one evil abyss rune vault or with xom 10:49:07 Keskitalo: yes, the results should be interesting. I'll hopefully announce it in several places to get more feedback from former players. 10:49:28 dpeg: It sounded like you had lots of thoughts prepared though, so that + not knowing what you're doing is probably a good combo :) 10:49:42 and for undead races holy is still the worst 10:50:20 dpeg: What are you announcing? 10:50:43 dpeg: you now knowing what you were doing was quite noticeable, but i think thats pretty common. theres a reason why so many interviews only appear in transcribed form. 10:51:20 multiple actually, but im sure interviwees often not being trained for the task is one of them 10:51:38 yeah 10:51:45 s/now/not 10:52:10 seemed fairly normal for a small podcast 10:52:27 ghallberg: the survey. On non-Crawl forums etc. 10:52:32 Ah, cool. 10:52:50 I'm having a hard time reading up on the backlog today >.<. 10:53:21 Mmm, reading the backlog, another joy that is in the past for me. 10:53:48 Hehe, old grumpkins. 10:54:08 Keskitalo: sure I had prepared something (for example a list and timeline for major Crawl changes) but could've done a lot better in retrospect. 10:54:36 elliptic, okay, so a cap of 30 on the number of monsters would be reasonable? 10:55:22 Zaba: I'd say so, yeah... 10:56:28 dpeg: i usually dont even consider listening to interviews, especially not 1h+ ones, so it must have been pretty good to make me sit through it 10:57:44 haha, thanks 10:58:40 03zaba * r1deeae5ee24f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/rooms.des: Limit the number of monsters in special rooms to 30. 10:59:34 Yeah, I had no complaints. 11:13:26 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:15:31 can someone change the topic? 11:15:53 anyone can change the topic 11:16:21 yes, due did yesterday, on a pretty silly whim 11:16:32 well, due has op 11:16:47 you don't need top to change the topic in here 11:16:49 op* 11:16:56 that seems unsanitary 11:17:14 also i dont know how to do it with chat commands, and chatzilla doesnt let me do it via ui 11:17:27 i do wonder why this channel is +s though 11:17:29 it's rather weird 11:17:37 keep out the plebs 11:18:04 whats +s again? it ist the one that just prevents public listing, or does it also make it not show up in /whois? 11:18:33 brb 11:18:34 doesn't show up in public listing 11:18:36 -!- alefury has left ##crawl-dev 11:18:48 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:58 nope, also prevents /whois listing to people not in the channel 11:19:21 that's not because of +s, it's because of the umode +i 11:19:33 ah. i knew there were two! 11:19:44 the channel mode for that is iirc +p 11:20:01 this shit just boggles my mind 11:20:04 but freenode sets umode +i by default anyway, so it's a little redundant 11:20:19 bye! 11:20:21 bye 11:20:25 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20111108220737]] 11:21:12 +s and +p overlap in functionality somewhat 11:21:18 What is "KOL"? 11:22:03 Kingdom of Loathing? 11:22:15 Uhm that's what I thuoght too... 11:24:01 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:24:26 -!- ldierk has quit [Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.] 11:24:43 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:54 -!- MarvinPA changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 11:28:23 -!- ctair has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:16 I think I'm going to stress the importance of getting involved in the actual development process; more involved each team was, the more impact (changes & discussion) their work had 11:38:11 Clicking empty Box of Beasts should give message. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5365) by XuaXua 11:41:50 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:23 Night2o1 (L21 OgAM) ERROR: range check error (-31 / 17) (D:12) 11:48:21 03dolorous * rc04e5462e3e6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Clean up monster scroll-blinking a bit more. 11:48:21 03dolorous * r28819cb77ceb 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Add formatting fixes. 11:50:50 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:30:32 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:16 Hmmh.. is there any way I can "de-init" submodules? 12:44:46 -!- xnavy has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:45:11 -!- jpt9 has left ##crawl-dev 13:01:32 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:30 03Keskitalo * r8b9966146b44 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h godabil.cc spl-summoning.cc stuff.cc): Make the messages for calling the dead and animating remains canned. 13:06:40 03Keskitalo * r2a3aa8409dcb 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/icecave.des: Remove fire resistance items from ice cave cavern loot; make cavern loot placement into their own functions. 13:30:32 Boots with attribute enhancers create message spam on Merfolk (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5366) by ldierk 13:44:33 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:04:34 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:04:46 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:19 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:14:25 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:27 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 14:43:02 Napkin: process 30118 asks for a SIGTERM, SIGKILL or perhaps SIGNUKEFROMORBIT 14:43:08 100% CPU as always 14:43:29 KiloByte (L13 HuPr) (Lair:2) 14:43:38 thanks for speeding this up for me :) 14:43:54 great... I'll try to reproduce it locally 14:44:07 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 14:45:17 used Stack Five, switched to other windows to see which card is least shitty, then accidentally closed the wrong terminal, HUPping the game 14:52:28 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:47 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:55:47 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 15:05:17 03kilobyte * reb127b30c542 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Fix an infinite loop if HUP happens during Stack Five. 15:06:19 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r20d85c6d5491 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Fix an infinite loop if HUP happens during Stack Five. 15:16:20 -!- Zaba has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:21 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:21 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:22 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:24 -!- R18 has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:25 -!- Adeon has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:25 -!- cbus has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:27 -!- Felyza has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:27 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:27 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:27 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:28 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:29 -!- Ragdoll has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:30 -!- rax has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:30 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:30 -!- edlothiol has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:32 -!- alefury has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:33 -!- GrimmSweeper has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:33 -!- PoopBridge has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:34 -!- jle has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:35 -!- evilmike has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:35 -!- SamB has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:36 -!- kemeno has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:36 -!- SamB_XP_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:38 -!- djinni has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:38 -!- ivan`` has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:38 -!- oberstein has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:39 -!- ogsus has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:40 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:40 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:40 -!- varmin has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:41 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:42 -!- Gretell has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:43 -!- greensnark has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:43 -!- chrisoelmueller has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:43 -!- galehar has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:43 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:43 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 15:16:44 -!- jarpiain has quit [*.net *.split] 15:18:28 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- R18 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- PoopBridge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- ogsus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Felyza has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- kemeno has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- SamB_XP_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- chrisoelmueller has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:44 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:24:03 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:49 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:47:16 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:47:16 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 15:56:55 Keskitalo: the tutorial is missing a skill section. Since the Great Skill Reform of 0.9, tutorial (and hint mode) haven't changed much. Only some minor tweak so it doesn't lie, but something more consistent would be welcome. 15:57:25 DoomRL has finally released a graphical version. 15:57:44 80 MB. Must be a record for a roguelike installer. 15:58:42 tome4 is like 120 mb 16:00:15 but tome4 isn't even graphical, is it? 16:00:40 * kilobyte waits for DoomRL to add a 3D interface. 16:00:50 it's fully graphical (fairly large tiles too) and has music 16:00:51 heck, it could even be in realtime! 16:00:55 it does have an ascii mode, but it's shitty 16:02:26 kilobyte: 3D might be too much. Maybe pseudo 3D would be enough for that kind of game. 16:02:34 with sprite monsters 16:02:50 don't let them come too close or they become ugly 16:03:11 a fuckup in GL libraries in Debian oh so many years ago once made Doom always run via aalib (ascii)... 16:05:36 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:18 Alg (L26 SpWz) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (Vault:7) 16:28:25 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:34:00 doomRL's graphics are amazing 16:34:30 It's hard not to play it like a real time game :) 17:02:14 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:03 Keskitalo: Delayed, but you should just be able to delete teh folders. 17:15:01 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:12 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:30:38 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 17:33:54 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ragdoll] 17:35:23 spunky the Ducker (L7 KoEE) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 942 failed on turn 5990. (D:5) 17:45:55 -!- cosh has quit [] 17:50:18 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:25 -!- kemeno has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:22:52 edlothiol: is there any way you could port the webtiles monster list and menus to regular tiles? 18:23:01 theyre better 18:23:34 hihot (L6 DDAM) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (D:3) 18:24:15 except the menus sometimes cut off some help text 18:25:10 also, left aligned menus would be better imo 18:25:37 Fhqwhgads (L8 MiFi) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (D:5) 18:25:39 because that way you can still see whats in your los, at least on a decently big screen 18:26:03 there's not much there to be ported, i.e. it would basically amount to reimplementing them 18:26:21 hm, wouldn't left-aligned menus cover even more of the dungeon area? 18:26:45 well, the char is in the center. so centered menu = covered char and los 18:27:37 yeah, you're right 18:27:43 i could probably see half my los with a left aligned menu 18:28:14 more on some 18:28:29 dont do it if it looks ugly 18:29:16 but would that really be useful? I think having the normal screen in the background mainly serves to make the transition to the menu and back less jarring 18:29:45 i.e. I found the screen changing to completely black (with a bit of text) and back a bit annoying 18:30:01 trapsarency 18:30:04 ... 18:30:07 transparency 18:35:09 edlothiol: yeah, not really sure if it would be better. having to look refocus from char to left aligned menu may be bad 18:35:35 but if its easy to try it might be worth trying 18:36:18 the monster list and stats are still visible, so most of the relevant information is still accessible even with centered menus 18:41:58 it is certainly easy to try 18:45:49 I do find having to refocus to the left a bit annoying, though 19:00:26 well, if its not working its not working 19:08:08 edlothiol: congrats btw, turns out i can tolerate webtiles! 19:08:19 it is very good 19:09:29 lagspikes are horrible, but those really arent your fault 19:12:01 well, thanks ;) 19:13:04 lag can probably still be improved... I think chrome has now implemented the compression extension for websockets, I'll have to implement that in the server and try it out 19:13:19 arent there problems with chrome? 19:14:11 the menus make a huge difference. in offline tiles they are rather annoying, so i prefer using the mouse. in webtiles i dont really mind. vi keys not really working on a german keyboard layout is bad, but also not your fault. 19:15:35 also, i dont notice any input lag (im in germany, with an excellent connection). the spikes are bad. sometimes the game just doesnt respond for 2-5 seconds 19:16:01 it feels more like a load thing, i doubt compression would help with that 19:16:17 s/load/server load/ 19:16:26 hm, that doesn't sound good though, could be my fault after all ;) 19:17:06 theres a tourney going on, so high load is to be expected 19:17:52 im just happy i can finally play online :) 19:17:56 good night 19:18:02 ok, good night 19:18:22 -!- alefury has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:18 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 19:35:43 -!- HangedMan has quit [] 19:38:08 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 19:47:40 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 20:03:38 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:07:58 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 22:21:16 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:21:16 -!- SamB_XP_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:24:23 Firefox crashing twice during acquirement looses acquirement (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5367) by donblas 22:54:40 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:54:44 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:02:15 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:18:53 -!- DaneiTWO has joined ##crawl-dev 23:22:25 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:32:20 -!- ctair has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 23:50:13 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]