00:03:12 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-175-g75e0b1b (32) 00:06:06 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:29 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:18:42 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-175-g75e0b1b 00:24:52 heya 00:26:14 so, found an issue with levelling... altar in D:2 surrounded by lava, filled with high level demons (as compared to D:2 anyway) ... cast mephetic cloud at it, a few demons walk into lava, and jump from xl 2 to 8 in no time flat 00:26:32 this a bug or 'expected luck' 00:29:30 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:02 I don't see how that could be a "bug" 00:38:05 bad design, maybe 00:38:23 I'm curious which demons are affected by mephitic cloud, but the same could apply to enchanters with Confuse 00:38:34 demons are like 50/50 on being rpois 00:38:41 @??orange demon 00:38:42 orange demon (044) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 38-67 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Damage: 8, 1004(poison, drain int) | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(64), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 416. 00:38:48 @??hellwing 00:38:48 hellwing (154) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 31-59 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Damage: 17, 10 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, fly, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(56), 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 390 | Sp: teleport other, animate dead, teleport self. 00:38:49 yeah a decent number of the weaker demons aren't 00:38:51 unexpected outcomes sometimes get labelled bugs, that's why I asked about it before submitting it 00:38:57 but they also have to be non-flying ones 00:39:07 which a decent number of the weaker ones aren't 00:39:19 i'd guess it was orange demons, anyways 00:39:27 4s, over 400 XP each 00:39:29 @??ogre 00:39:29 ogre (07O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-38 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 119. 00:39:33 @??ufetubus 00:39:33 ufetubus (115) | Speed: 15 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 5, 5 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(4), 02cold, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 8. 00:39:46 @??ynoxinul 00:39:46 ynoxinul (113) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 21-45 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 12 | Flags: 05demonic, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 198 | Sp: iron shot (3d16), ufetubus. 00:39:50 yeah probably orange demons 00:39:54 @??iron devil 00:39:54 iron devil (104) | Speed: 8 | HD: 8 | Health: 28-62 | AC/EV: 16/8 | Damage: 14, 14 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(64), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 324. 00:40:16 of the 7 or so demons, 3 walked into lava, the rest sat there while I plinked them to death... was able to kill another 4 but the remaining 4 only got me from 7 to 8 00:40:38 yeah that's the other problem with that vault, you can just use ranged attacks to kill them 00:40:41 the last one's regen overcame anything I threw at it so early in the dungeon (bonus levels or not) 00:40:47 I'm pretty sure I know exactly which vault it is, and it's bad 00:41:22 stuff like that is okay later on, but we really shouldn't be placing stuff with that high XP and not requiring digging to get at it 00:41:25 when it's on D:2 and you have a wizard that just barely learned mephetic cloud, it's pretty silly the levels you can get from it 00:41:50 at least it was my first draconian to grow up 00:43:35 shut up or they'll nerf meph again 00:45:02 not asking for any nerfs, but the generation should take into account D level, that's all 00:51:09 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:55 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:54 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:13 you know, I kiled more using magic dart than meph? 01:08:21 good 01:08:51 Vault spawns allow rapid leveling for ranged attacks. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5316) by Felyza 01:08:52 threw it in bug form 01:09:25 either it'll get fixed or labelled as as designed... but at least should someone else stumble on it, it's been noted 01:13:30 sigh, just opened a pandora's box... a room chock full or kobolds 01:13:37 of* 01:16:33 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05:42 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 02:06:13 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:06:58 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:07:08 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:10:14 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:35 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:13:38 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:17 -!- Vandal has quit [] 02:32:43 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:55 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:25 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:55 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:27 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:03:31 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:48 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 03:07:52 -!- alefury has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:33 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:32:19 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:21 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:35:44 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37:26 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:40:46 Killed a minotaur, blinked onto his little island, no stairs. 03:42:06 minotaur zombie i assume? 03:42:10 yeah 03:42:22 yeah, you couldve seen that 03:42:57 I can blink back off... is there going to be another stair somewhere? 03:45:08 first time in a lab, killed a minotaur and didn't find the stairs... before I meander away from where I killed a minotaur, wanted clarification this isn't the dr... minotaur I was looking for (nothing about this in wiki) 03:46:11 Felyza__, you sure it wasn't a minotaur zombie? 03:46:27 yes, it was a minotaur zombie 03:46:31 Felyza__: a) ##crawl, b) minotaur zombie = vault 03:46:46 ah 03:50:35 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:58 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:18:45 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:55 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 04:43:21 -!- MakMorn has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:43:28 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:43:48 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-181-g0327a21 05:06:39 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12:09 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:04:01 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:40 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:20 [Tiles] Tutorial sometimes highlights wrong cells for monsters (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=831) by jpeg 06:37:00 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:15 Good afternoon! 06:37:43 I wrote up a little blog post about wiki reorganization, is it too soon to publish it (the tournament was just announced)? 06:39:21 thats for the dev blog, right? so not much interference with the tournament news? 06:40:21 Yeah, that depends if I don't tick the "News" category :) 06:40:48 but that would help, that's right, thanks! 06:42:01 Ah, looks like the tournament announcement is stickied. 06:42:07 It stays at the top anyway. 06:42:22 Here we go: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/wiki-reorganized 06:48:46 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:50:52 Keskitalo! <# 06:51:55 Your heart is broken, due. 06:51:58 Hi! :) 06:52:02 Keskitalo: It's burning. 06:57:37 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57:39 !seen Keskitalo 06:57:40 I last saw Keskitalo at Wed Feb 15 12:51:58 2012 UTC (5m 42s ago) saying Hi! :) on ##crawl-dev. 06:58:00 Farewell Eino! Daughter is doing fine? 06:58:55 Hey dpeg! 06:59:24 Keskitalo: I'm also gone. Seems like its time for the next generation. 06:59:58 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:30 the next generation will just turn back to nethack! 07:00:36 * dpeg slaps bhaak 07:00:54 * bhaak has eaten a clown and is therefore slap resistant 07:01:10 Who wants to play a syphilitic roguelike? 07:01:25 I'd rather play Brogue instead. 07:01:30 lots of people are sick :) 07:01:48 bhaak: will you go to London IRDC? 07:01:56 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:57 ^ sicko HQ 07:02:22 maybe, not 100% certain yet 07:02:31 you? 07:02:35 same here, I have time, but nothing settled yet 07:02:50 perhaps I can give a scientific talk in London as well, that'd make it more sensible for me 07:02:56 Hi dpeg! 07:03:09 Keskitalo: we've already been there =) 07:03:09 Daughter is doing great, just woke up actually, and it's time for som efood :) 07:03:43 awesome 07:03:53 She's walking around and everything.. cheerful and strongwilled :) 07:04:04 Probably wound up for Trog worship sooner or later 07:04:12 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:14 * dpeg burns some books for the good cause. 07:04:15 i'm not yet fully immersed in brogue, the no-console option did hinder me a bit :) 07:04:18 Hey guys 07:04:18 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:04:19 I'm listening to the podcast, nice timing :) 07:04:22 !messages 07:04:22 (1/1) alefury said (3d 2h 31m 57s ago): how does the new skill cost stuff work with potions of exp? does it use the exp applied to skills, or the leveling exp? 07:04:27 Hi Raphael! 07:04:39 oh dear, all of you back at once. 07:04:43 Hi galehar! 07:04:49 however temporary. 07:04:54 Keskitalo: turn the volume down at the end, or your daugther might get possessed by satan 07:05:21 in soviet russia, satan is possessed by your daughter 07:05:35 so much fuss about 21 seconds of noise.... I wonder what's wrong with people 07:05:49 21 seconds i'll never get back! 07:05:59 looking forward to it! 07:06:03 21 seconds titled Meth Crawl -- cannot go wrong with that 07:06:09 btw, congratulations to join the nethack bashing club aka roguelike radio :) 07:06:15 :) 07:06:30 nethack is so good that it has built in cheat codes! 07:06:33 I found it interesting that seemingly Jeff and I despise Sokoban, but for different reasons. 07:06:40 hehe 07:06:42 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:46 dpeg, I'd like a sokoban game on my phone :D 07:06:49 doesn't _everyone_ despise sokoban? :) 07:06:49 (without the nethack part) 07:06:50 I also wanted to play Benümb's "Crawl, Stagger, Fall", but didn't get around to it 07:07:07 lorimer: unfortunately not 07:07:19 lorimer: some people love it. they are even sad that i removed one level 07:07:22 gad. i burned out on that game in the late 80s 07:07:29 yeah, yeah, i know. but still. 07:07:35 lorimer, bhaak, ais523: I hope you all got a good laugh out of Pat Rankin's posting on r.g.r.n the other day? 07:07:41 i wish i had followed through and thrown sokoban off a cliff and replaced it with some branch or other 07:07:49 dpeg: They had to link me to it, but I did :) 07:07:55 replace sokoban with tetris 07:08:10 i wanted to replace it with Xom 07:08:20 they colud replace sokoban with DCSS 07:08:21 I wonder what he's thinking, must be tough to be the Nethack Devteam as this time, without being able to hand over. 07:08:22 dpeg: it was a bit less laughing on my part, more head banging against the wall :) 07:08:23 four levels where random crap happens to you out of the blue 07:08:23 :) 07:08:45 dpeg: honestly, I seriously think he is pissy that people are effectively taking over 07:08:50 bhaak: I fully understand. More funny to us outsiders. 07:09:01 dpeg: i think they all think of it as "their baby", which is true but you should take care of your baby or give it up 07:09:17 lorimer: perhaps... but they could've done it so much better (structure and leadership, not just the game) 07:09:19 dpeg: well, a bit schadenfreude that it also happens to them was there too 07:09:35 dpeg: oh, sure, but that's a 20-year-old hierarchy, some flaws are to be expected 07:10:01 Not as if I (we) managed to get the DCSS team structure well... as you could see recently. 07:10:19 it's tempting to chime in and say "look, i worked for a couple years and then had to walk away because of RL taking over, but you may notice i did one thing right: public SVN, so that other variant devs can use any of my code they want -- think maybe it's time for you guys to do the same?" 07:10:30 dpeg: people are hard :) 07:10:56 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:10:56 dpeg: even harder if you don't have any sort of physical control. it's not accidental that linus kept iron-fist control over the kernel for how many years early on? 07:11:05 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:07 you can only put so much work into brainwashing. some have just stubborn heads or int:3 07:11:11 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:34 lorimer: yes. I am happy with the decision (which was pretty much me alone) to open up the devteam, though. 07:11:51 i didn't know that you were only 4 devs at that time 07:12:00 dpeg: open acceptance of contributions = more likely more work will get done, indeed 07:12:00 bhaak: the fact that I don't code did lessen my power, agreed. At least I thought it did. 07:12:14 dpeg: it unquestionably did. coders get pissy about 'design only' sorts 07:12:18 bhaak: it was just a couple at first (Darshan and Erik), one of them non-coding. 07:13:28 With Nethack variants proliferating at the same speed, you'll soon be up to *band proportions, btw :) 07:14:01 lorimer, bhaak, ais523: I hope you all got a good laugh out of Pat Rankin's posting on r.g.r.n the other day? <- which one? 07:14:14 the one where he complained about people not telling him a fix until he'd tracked it down himself? 07:14:19 we'll see :) i think there is actually a minimerge in progress 07:14:22 we were hoping he'd learn from it, but probably not 07:14:27 and yes, acehack and nitrohack are merging 07:14:41 yes, and where he says how Nethack development is active even if we don't see anything or believe otherwise 07:14:42 dpeg: it will be some time before we got more devs than players :) 07:14:42 an unofficial 'variant dev team' is accumulating -- even if some of it is only consulatation 07:14:46 *consultation 07:14:47 ais523: very nice! 07:15:02 they both have much the same goals, and they both started implementing them in a different order 07:15:08 which is pretty much the best possible situatoin for a merge 07:15:15 "handy, that" 07:15:54 i do wonder if that would be enough to shake up the status queue-oh 07:16:31 announcing that four of the five major variant developers were taking over, merging everything they could agree on of theirs together, and calling it "nethack 4" 07:16:39 (dunno if anyone could get hold of slash'em dude or if he'd care) 07:16:52 don't beat the dead horse 07:17:18 lorimer: daniel_t and I are seriously considering that, and ofc with other variant developers joining it it'd work better 07:17:23 slashem is poisonous! 07:18:22 ais523: the biggest problem would be "everything they could agree on" :D 07:18:40 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:56 lorimer: right, but oddly, we agree on a lot 07:19:30 the difficulty is more agreement among players than agreement among developers :) 07:19:31 well, sure. it'd take some legwork up front (nail down a proper design goal so we can compare everything against that, etc.) 07:19:48 pfft, players. :D someone'll hate any given thing :D 07:20:07 right, I've even had people complain about the protection against accidentally walking into lava :) 07:20:16 yeah, that puzzles me 07:20:21 (which unlike Crawl's, /does/ have an override) 07:20:36 i wasn't in favor of implementing it, so i didn't, but i'm not against it enough to bother complaining 07:20:51 huh, why not? 07:21:23 seems a little self-protective. Crawl is very far down that road and it occasionally puzzles me 07:21:38 but at the same time it is sort of an 'interface' thing 07:21:45 ie. interface-difficulty instead of game-difficulty 07:22:05 right, indeed; killing players with the interface is only suitable for games which don't have depth in any other way 07:22:15 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:22:16 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 07:22:18 which is why i'm not against it enough to complain, i just wasn't going to bother :) I think mostly it was more "look, there might be a number of reasons you'd want to walk in" -- and you've handled that with the confirm prompt so 07:22:19 or, hmm 07:22:28 I wouldn't put protection against walking into lava in a platformer, but I would in an RPG 07:22:36 and indeed, that's the case for most games of those two genres 07:22:58 right. platformers, the game difficulty is about 'controlling how you walk' 07:27:46 yep, indeed 07:33:26 !tell alefury potions of exp give 750*XL exp and train skills with it. The recent skill cost change has no effect on this. 07:33:27 galehar: OK, I'll let alefury know. 07:34:37 with regards nethack's sokoban it should be replaced with a simple question "have you ever beaten sokoban or do you know how to google" and if you say yes you get the reward. Job done :) 07:35:08 also, being 30 minutes back in scrollback is silly of me 07:35:44 actually, NetHack's Sokoban is good in that it's really interesting terrain for fighting 07:35:56 the problem is, that the actual puzzle gets old after a few successes 07:36:04 but it breaks the rules the game has previously set 07:36:22 e.g. diagonal moves, pits acting as holes, going *up* to progress 07:36:33 and, yes, the puzzle itself is just dull 07:36:48 but then you can say the same thing about nethack in a way 07:36:54 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:21 or, to put it differently, having beat nethack once I now consider it solved. Having beaten crawl once I know I have so much more to do 07:38:31 galehar: they also raise your level by one, so i was worried they might use the wrong exp value 07:38:31 alefury: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:38:58 * dpeg realises that Daniel is a Nethack forkist who I never tried to sell the idea of quest home level race to. 07:39:29 he 07:41:06 quest home level race? 07:41:11 random pile of words :S 07:41:46 dpeg is very fond of "you arrive on a level, suddenly you must drop everything and rush to get somewhere" 07:42:00 that's how he's working in rl 07:42:18 ghallberg: nah, the Nethack guys will know what I mean: NH has a quest branch, where you meet your "quest leader" at "home". If you fulfill the conditions (XL>13 and something about piety), then you can go and do the quest levels. 07:42:42 i started playing crawl again briefly inbetween features (compiled from trunk) and mostly i just ignore labyrinths as trying to race is sure to get me killed 07:42:46 You can say what you want, I believe that the bazaar race works well in Crawl. 07:42:55 if i trip over it in the course of normal exploration fine, but there is no point in chasing them down 07:43:06 i just take a scroll of mapping with me for this stuff 07:43:24 problem solved, unless the scroll gets burned :/ 07:43:27 alefury: nice if you _have_ one of those, sure :) 07:43:55 The Abyss is another place that forces change of pace; I really like that. 07:44:03 i tend to save them for branch ends instead of using them early, so i usually have some 07:45:33 dpeg: bazaar or lab race is fun, volcano/ice cave is not 07:46:31 kilobyte: the timing out? Yes, I feel we never really settled that properly. You definitely don't want those to be eternal (or we run into the problems we had with ancient labyrinths). And I don't think we want all of them announced either :O 07:46:43 the former means a risky chase through the level, the latter means you have to explore every level before daring to touch stairs to the next one 07:46:52 why not have all of them announced? 07:46:55 I thought that's been addressed though? 07:47:10 adressed, but not solved 07:47:13 alefury: I was afraid it could be too busy. 07:47:15 dpeg: what happened to ancient labyrinths? 07:47:30 what was the problem with eternal vaults? 07:47:35 the timer is long enough that you don't have to immediately explore every level as soon as you enter it, i thought 07:47:45 kilobyte: they were permanent, so everyone would just go to the stash, pack rations and come back. Not that you needed that -- they were trivial to solve. 07:47:54 Presumably if the rewards are set at generation point then you'd not bother to go in later in the game as the loot will be less good 07:48:11 same with Ice: if permanent, everyone will load up on rC. Not sure we want that. 07:48:23 phyphor: players will bother with anything :( 07:48:29 dpeg: you haven't tried to sell quest home race to me either 07:48:44 but given that the quest is required to beat the game, and you typically can't complete it at the time you find it, it seems like a bad idea 07:48:45 dpeg: and if ziggurats are permanent players will load up on gold and equipment ... oh, wait 07:48:45 issues: shafts screw you out of portal vaults, disconnected orc, general encouragement towards fully exploring levels, entrance vaults recognizable from the outside, but the short timer only starts when you see the portal. Some entrance vaults have glass and secret doors, possibly leading to frustrating timeouts. 07:48:46 ais523: ah, blammo! I'll do it to you and Daniel at once. 07:49:04 ais523: no no, it was not like that. Don't worry, I know a bit about NH. 07:49:24 phyphor: i think you're maybe missing the point a bit there 07:50:15 alefury: shafts are fine; Orc is not; exploration I don't know (matter of taste, I guess); timer is problematic 07:50:19 disconnected orc = not really disconnected, but bubble layout forces dipping, which means timeouts. 07:50:21 anyway, hmm, Crawl and NetHack have very different strategic and tactical priorities, which is often why Crawl players look at NetHack and think that things are insane, and vice versa 07:50:28 MarvinPA: I often do 07:50:39 unless you routinely expect to be able to enter and clear ziggurats as soon as you find them, in which case that's pretty impressive :P 07:51:06 MarvinPA: well, I was pointing out that there already exists permanent examples of these things 07:51:22 Heck, one could argue that Pan levels are similar 07:51:23 yes, but they're a postgame challenge designed to require a lot of preparation 07:51:30 (isn't it Pan were you only get a single shot at a Pan lord?) 07:51:33 also i think the long timer is a bit too short. the purpose is to remove non-challenging vaults from the game at some point, so they should never time out just from shafts IMO. 07:52:03 MarvinPA: or as a source of consumables, if you're prepared to leave early -- I guess that dichotomy could be strengthened. 07:52:29 yeah, that definitely would be cool if it happened a bit more commonly 07:52:42 MarvinPA: go ahead, tweak it :) 07:52:50 in Crawl, the obvious rewards for things like vaults tend to be consumables which are useful all game long, whereas in NetHack, they tend to be (often secondary) asc kit components, which have a tendency to be useless if you already have one 07:52:59 i so often tell people to go and do ziggurats when they ask where to find cure mutation potions, with some adjustments maybe that could actually be sensible advice :P 07:53:10 MarvinPA: yes, would be awesome 07:53:33 ais523: yes, that's a corollary of NH having a tendency towards permanent stuff 07:53:36 NetHack's balance is quite a risk-reward tradeoff, you know where you can probably find an X or a Y, but have to consider if you can go there equipped as you are 07:53:57 actually, Slash'EM seems to really understand that well, it's one of its few triumphs 07:54:21 (Slash'EM has so many ideas implemented that some of them have to be good, pretty much just by chance…) 07:55:27 two suggestions: make vaults easier to do, and get an appropriate award (e.g. ice gives you rC items, volcano gives you rF items, labyrinthe gives you food), or make them harder, and permanent, and a much nicer reward 07:56:21 make them a *lot* harder, even with the appropriate itemns 07:56:28 (in both cases make them permanent) 07:56:36 labyrinths giving food? people already hate doing them 07:56:46 i think the risk/reward for icecaves and volcanoes is pretty good at the moment, they're mostly a challenge although it varies quite a bit 07:57:02 True, but part of the risk is inherent in them not being permanent 07:57:14 Eronarn: *some* people hate doing them 07:59:11 I do wonder what would happen if you made the vaults guaranteed, permanent until visited and placed in appropriate locations 07:59:33 phyphor: you'd get NetHack, not that that's inherently a bad thing 07:59:34 phyphor: they you effectively add new branches 07:59:56 what could be interesting is if those vaults guarded access to branches 07:59:59 ais523: I'm not sure you do. And, dpeg, single level sub-branches 08:00:05 which is close to the NetHack way of doing things 08:00:17 part of the idea with portal vaults (at least, my idea) was to shrink the dungeon but allow for random dungeon extensions (portal vaults) 08:00:19 then, you'd have to choose whether to risk the vault, to get to the branch beyond it 08:00:27 phyphor: the problem with ice caves is that having rC makes them massively easier 08:00:31 dpeg: have you ever played a game in the Metroidvania genre? 08:00:34 kilobyte: true 08:00:36 ais523: no! 08:00:37 (depends on the cave in question, often) 08:00:46 dpeg: hmm, it might be informative 08:01:18 the basic idea is that the game is full of difficult challenges in each direction, the reward for each is something that makes all the others easier 08:01:18 okay, will have a look 08:01:26 kilobyte: but you could ramp up the hardness if you knew people would have rC+ 08:01:42 and they're of varying difficulty, at the start of the game, most of them will be literally impossible (probably even to get to), but more open up as you collect more upgrades 08:01:44 at present whether you get a vault and you're able to do it well is incredibly luck based 08:01:52 and I thought crawl was more interested in skill rather than luck 08:02:21 I amy, of course, be wrong in both my interpreation and understanding 08:02:34 I have a feeling that a properly balanced version of NetHack would do something like that (it sort of does, but doesn't really), and Crawl wouldn't/shouldn't, and this is a fundamental difference between the games' philosophies 08:03:06 phyphor: I believe that you reduce the need for skill by making Ice Caves (say) permanent and guaranteed. It will become: "Don't enter Ice Cave without rC++. Do A, B, C." Now, if you get an Ice Cave, you have to decide whether to go in; once in, you have to decide which consumables to blow and if/when to bail out. 08:03:24 Which does, as pointed out, make it nethack-y 08:03:27 good point, well made 08:03:38 so, more decisions the current way (and yes, it is far from perfect) 08:04:18 the metroidvania version would be to have an ice cave with a guaranteed rF+ item at the end, and a volcano with a guaranteed rC+ item at the end 08:04:32 which gives a decision of a different sort (which order to do them in) 08:04:36 ais523: strategic options are always interesting; I'll have a look 08:05:09 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05:18 atm I'm moderately addicted to An Untitled Story (freeware, shared-source but written in something crazy, and Windows-only); there are others 08:09:19 dpeg: my problems with ice caves are mostly that you must explore levels sequentially or lose such portals 08:09:34 (7 of them -- ie, most) 08:10:24 expiring is fine, and you're right that it does force people to make the decision whether to go in now or not at all 08:10:57 theoretically one would carry with them sufficient food/rC+/rF+ and explore an entire level before moving on 08:11:01 kilobyte: yes, I understand. But I don't know how to repair without removing the decision or announcement. Perhaps announcement is not so bad, after all. 08:12:03 A thought I just had is that you could maybe have ice-traps around an ice cave, and fire traps around a volcano, thereby making T+D useful in finding them easier 08:12:21 but on further inspection that would make the entryway vastly more difficult to navigate 08:12:29 other solution would be to mess with the timer somehow 08:13:06 like, having it off while out of the level 08:13:14 kilobyte: the longer you stay on the level, the faster it goes? 08:13:14 i feel like this early vault with the singing sword shouldn't always be the singing sword 08:14:17 dpeg: except for magic mapping or recognizing edges of the vault, you have no knowledge that the given level contains an ice cave 08:14:49 yes 08:14:55 preparedness comes from exploration, so reordering exploring levels doesn't make you any more prepared on the average 08:16:24 it can sometimes lead to extremes like finding a sewer while going for the Ziggurat that generated on the level, but I don't see a big problem here 08:17:02 not exploring half of D:6 makes you that less prepared for the portal you find on D:10 08:17:30 Perhaps the question should be: what are these designed to be? 08:17:39 once the reason for them is known, how they should operate will follow 08:18:56 so when will be the version release? 08:19:18 I think the proper way to fix how portals mess with exploration pattern would be to remove the long timer and to announce the portal as soon as a part of the vault come into view 08:20:08 if you recognize the vault with ?mm, then good for you, no timer go prepare. It's a limited resource. 08:20:55 i would do it, but it's a bit tricky to implement 08:21:11 galehar: also DD 08:22:35 but I agree, it solves most issues 08:23:19 having the timer only start once you _see_ the vault entrance improves this 08:23:21 galehar: or perhaps ?mm could trigger the long timer (which would be a lot shorter, of course) 08:23:47 as yes, when i happen to enter a level and get a message "OMG HURRY HURRY IT WILL CLOSE" i read it as "oh look, an artificial sense of urgency" and ignore it 08:23:58 specifically: an artificial urgency designed to get me killed 08:24:02 what would it mean for the sewer entrance in the glassed off room (which is one of the most despised entrances I know of) 08:24:11 lorimer: most entry vaults are recognizable from afar. Coloured floor/walls, monsters out of place (ice beasts in Lair, etc). 08:25:05 kilobyte: then within a certain range of the entry. *shrug* 08:25:09 kilobyte: good idea, magic mapping the vault could trigger the long timer and give a different message 08:25:15 having mapping it trigger a longer timer and seeing it trigger the short timer sounds interesting 08:25:28 (and both give a message of some sort) 08:25:29 my point is simply that when i see the message on entering a level, I class it as 'developers trying to get me killed by being in too much of a hurry' 08:25:52 lorimer: you're thinking too negatively. If someone advertises a short-term selling ("everything's half the price for one day"), do you also expect to be killed? The bazaar/lab announcement tells you that something interesting is there. You don't really have to rush, but if you dawdle, it'll be gone. 08:26:18 dpeg: no, the point is that rushing through crawl levels heedlessly gets you killed 08:26:19 MarvinPA, galehar: agreed, that could solve everything 08:26:31 dpeg: so i refuse to increase speed just because of a dangling carrot 08:26:37 lorimer: not necessarily, it's just a different mode of playing 08:26:38 dpeg: i recognize that carrots are optional :) 08:27:07 dpeg: well, yeah, a TrBe doesn't have to worry about rushing, but the crunchy classes can't get surrounded :) 08:27:24 don't explore every crook and nanny, go for large open spaces rather than small ones, leave sleeping monsters be, use teleport if stuck 08:27:37 'leave sleeping monsters be' is a neat trick, ever tried it lately? 08:27:45 yes 08:27:45 they wake up even if you're semi-stealthy 08:28:15 plus the old "the ___ shouts" thing wakes all of them up if you're unlucky to get one away 08:28:18 *awake 08:31:29 to implement it, I think we need a lua marker which is spread on the whole vault instead of just the portal 08:33:41 So, entering the level would not trigger the long timer anymore? I think this solves kilobyte's problem? 08:33:58 yes 08:34:46 maybe there could be a "long timer" that is set off not necessarily when you enter the level but when you get close enough for you to have indicators even if you don't see the entrance itself 08:35:08 that way someone couldn't, say, find an ice beast in lair, and, without seeing the ice cave entrance itself, go off to get some rC+ 08:35:29 ice beast is probably obvious enough 08:35:30 Yeah, the monsters wondering away from the portal are a bit problematic. 08:35:36 so short timer = seeing entrance, "long timer" = an indicator you are close 08:35:54 the monsters themselves could also trigger the timer 08:35:59 (and the "long timer" could give a message as well, so you know for definite, that your'e int he right place) 08:36:00 speaking of most entry vaults being recognizable, can we get rid of the ossuary pyramid one 08:36:03 it's very spoilery 08:36:25 dpeg: trigger timer + message would be cool 08:37:00 "long timer" 08:37:16 (although the new long timer should be shorter than the current, but longer than the short ... iyswim) 08:37:21 I was worried before, that you might have unexplored levels and come across an unfound Ossuary when they're trivial. kilobyte made a good point above though, that trying to do this intentionally would be too risky. 08:38:01 yes 08:38:06 can't the entry vault monsters be set patrolling to prevent them from wandering away? 08:38:09 Ossuary doesn't give OOD levels, too. 08:38:14 but if you come across a previously unfound mini-vault won't it have low level monsters (so minimal xp) and crappy loot? 08:38:20 Sometimes wish vaults got a descriptor. 08:38:30 Just something to explain what it's supposed to be .) 08:38:31 :) 08:38:41 Ice Cave and Volcano are the only special ones: you don't need rC/rF items much at those depths, but they come handy later. 08:38:42 ghallberg: I think this can be done somehow. 08:38:50 What is the square with humanoids around it, and food inside 08:38:50 ? 08:38:55 and water, fire and steam. 08:38:59 Some kind of oven? 08:39:07 Ossuaries have (had) a nice pile of potions/scrolls, I think the loot is useful later on too. 08:39:19 I mean (had?) 08:39:27 because maybe it's been tweaked since 08:41:24 on another note, it's been said that crawl has too much loot. How about just reducing the number of items generated per level (currently 3+3d11) 08:42:02 if the loot is too rare then the decision as to what to use is "what I find" 08:44:50 better idea: how about just reducing the number of levels? 08:45:12 xp thresholds and skill cost can be tweaked to compensate for lost exp 08:45:24 alefury: I for one find regular levels to be boring 08:45:43 as in, there should be 3-4 times as many vaults 08:45:44 that suggestions of D levels becoming smaller with depth is pretty cool 08:45:58 with number of monsters, items and vaults staying constant 08:46:51 slightly smaller levels in general, with same item and monster *density* as now, would also be nice 08:47:05 crawl could stand to be quite a bit shorter imo, especially the midgame 08:47:28 smaller D levels as you descend would be interesting 08:47:46 its a pretty well-chewed suggestion 08:47:54 also, i have no idea if that idiom exists in english 08:48:48 (i do think the portal timeout changes suggested here sound good btw) 08:48:52 level generation is a bit tricky i think, because large vaults would have to still work 08:49:08 It might be interesting ot toughen up Volcano and Ice Cave and make them spawn later on 08:49:18 i disagree 08:49:19 of course that means most people will have rF and rC so maybe not 08:49:54 Ice Caves have harder variants that come later, but the system is likely to give you an easy one earlier 08:50:04 yeah 08:51:21 alefury: I haven't heard that idiom before, and I'm a native English speaker 08:51:24 but I can tell what it means 08:53:03 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:53:38 I'm just thinking it might be nice to have more side vaults if the D level itself is smaller 08:53:58 kilobyte: do you think it would be possible to get a temporary fix for the phoenix thing in 0.10? it is really a pretty bad abuse 08:54:17 I agree that giving the XP when you destroy the corpse would be best, but anything would be better than the current situation 08:54:26 what is the phoenix thing? people farming them for exp? 08:54:29 yes 08:54:37 and piety, I believe 08:56:08 actually, I hoped to fix a couple of crashes and tag the damn thing 08:57:25 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:58:05 okay 08:58:59 so there's a different temporary fix possible: s/8/./ in the one vault that has them (the Pan holy level) 08:59:24 do they show up in holy zig levels? 08:59:33 yeah 08:59:53 and Summon Holies, but that's disabled 09:01:08 and polymorphing holies 09:01:50 shedu were already taken off the Zig list because of a placement bug 09:02:30 I wonder why the bug wasn't fixed instead as it was a couple of months ago, and shedu mostly work even when alone 09:04:02 what about just giving them M_NO_EXP_GAIN for now? or is that likely to mess something else up? 09:04:17 I guess probably 09:04:29 if they're no exp why not just remove them 09:05:16 eronarn: well, they could still be (weak) threats and we could get more testing with their rebirth ability 09:06:52 elliptic: that sounds fine for a trunk build, but it doesn't need to go into .10 like that 09:08:21 just removing them makes the cave in holypan with them a bit sad-looking but I guess that's fine 09:09:45 can make people wonder why they give no XP, but it's not a big thing 09:10:46 and if you can do Zigs or that particular Pan level, you're past the usual 15 rune power level 09:12:03 well, in theory you could duck into a zig in D at a relatively low level and find a phoenix on an early zig level and farm it... but I'm not really that worried 09:23:44 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:vehumet_spells 09:25:04 would be nice to actually have this happen, so feedback please 09:25:50 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:36:32 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:56 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:51:32 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:05:30 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:49 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:15 -!- greatzebu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:13 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=48306#p48306 10:35:49 not sure what the issue is there 10:36:09 if it's the ossuary i think he's talking about, it hasn't changed since being added 10:36:27 there were some changes to secret door camouflage, maybe something went wrong? 10:36:40 i havent actually looked at the vault, just thought i should pass on the message 10:36:42 has a chance of being all glass walls, and a chance of some of the secret doors being stone walls instead of glass 10:37:46 oh right, maybe that's not an intentional change 10:38:34 yeah, probably nothing to do with the vault itself 10:38:39 claws wrote a post about it 10:39:08 2 posts down or so 10:39:24 claws made the same mistake i did except using way more words 10:39:47 :P 10:40:34 indeed 10:42:52 possibly related to #5133 and http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/2cdada0216 10:42:55 i dunno 10:44:47 maybe edlothiol can shed light on it, i don't understand all the complicated tiles stuff 10:45:11 oh okay, i guess the secret doors there are taking on the appearance of the stone walls next to them 10:45:35 but they should be taking on the appearance of the glass 10:45:40 -!- ldierk has quit [Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.] 10:50:58 yeah, what claws said 10:51:21 somewhere between the many words :P 10:52:07 so what is the conclusion? did anything actually change affecting this vault? 10:52:08 elliptic: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:52:32 which ossuary are we talking about? 10:55:28 ossuary_minmay_tomb_2a 10:55:59 the vault itself hasn't changed 10:56:43 but in each corner, there's some glass with a secret door in and then the border of the map is stone 10:57:10 and if a secret door gets placed next to the border of the map, it shows up as stone instead of glass when undetected (maybe that's even how it always worked, i don't know) 11:00:19 this can't really be tile-specific, can it? I mean, it isn't just the tile, but also the feature description 11:00:39 so yeah, I think that's how it has always worked 11:00:57 yeah, could well be 11:02:44 I think the relevant code is find_secret_door_info in terrain.cc 11:08:15 alefury: you know that we've been cutting levels since quite some time. We've been going slow with that, but I think it's fine. If each release cuts two levels, it will be felt before long. 11:08:18 it just picks the first wall from north, west, east or south from the door to copy 11:10:36 -!- Forthwith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:44 imo crawl could stand to be shortened by at least 25% 11:11:16 the problem is really what to cut, because each part can be boring or interesting depending on what you find and when you do it 11:11:21 alefury: you did read what I wrote? 11:11:45 If you were boss, would you just cut 25% of the content? I don't think so. 11:11:56 There is no problem with approach this one slowly. 11:11:57 content != length 11:12:24 the amount of content is fine imo, crawl being big and complex is okay 11:12:29 I'd enable more vaults, even in absolute numbers rather than relative 11:12:32 just the sheer length is what bothers me 11:12:50 We've cut Hive total, Lair and Elf. Vaults could be next. I proposed to make Dungeon levels smaller (when creatured naturally -- vaults sticking out is fine) when deeper. 11:13:22 smaller d levels, shave a level off the lair branches 11:13:23 I was alos thinking of reducing the size of levels 11:13:28 dpeg: if I'll have enough tuits, I'd reduce Elf by two levels, replacing one of them by Dwarf 11:13:28 also* 11:14:10 vaults is pretty dull, to be honest 11:14:12 ripping off two levels from V, even without compensation, may be a good idea too 11:14:13 kilobyte: sure, that is alright 11:14:14 i quite like the sound of that for elf 11:14:19 phyphor: there is a pretty old proposal for V 11:14:20 and shrinking V a bit too, definitely 11:14:23 lair branches could lose a level, lair could lose another 1-2 levels (its really not very interesting), vaults could lose 2-3 levels. branches that are generally dived are fine imo (hells, slime). pan could be sped up a little, but an effort to prevent extreme length was made, so best to wait and see how that turns out. 11:14:57 abyss can get very boring, too 11:15:23 I think abyss is supposed to be, though 11:15:34 lower length means fewer chances to die, but also less exp and items, might be tricky to balance, but past experience seems to show that this is not that much of a problem 11:15:43 phyphor: i dont think abyss is supposed to be boring 11:16:13 Abyss has just been overhauled, it should be tested for at least one version. 11:16:18 it also isnt, it just is sometimes boring because finding the rune can take very long, and difficulty doesnt scale 11:16:58 dpeg: yeah, the Abyss is completely different from what it used to be 11:17:16 the abyssical rune should perhaps just be scrapped 11:17:19 mostly, being stuck or having to backtrack is gone 11:17:21 its much better now imo, but still uniform and can be very long 11:17:39 or optionally replaceable by the mysterious zig rune 11:17:56 dpeg: not a good idea IMO, it'd make Abyss a totally negative thing everyone wants to avoid 11:18:31 alefury: it wasn't uniform, that's the biggest flaw of the overhaul 11:18:47 I think a shorter but "wider" lair would be interesting (going back to the idea of having the non-generated sub-branches be generated as vaults) 11:18:47 it kind of was 11:18:48 alefury: you had areas of high density and of ones of low 11:19:01 kilobyte: I don't think abyssal runes generate often enough to challenge that negative verdict 11:20:08 1. both of these were pretty boring 2. the high density ones were only good for resting, if you actually wanted to cover ground and find the rune you needed to stick to low density areas 11:20:40 adding something like this to new abyss might be nice, though 11:21:04 i havent seen the burst morphing yet, that might be cool too 11:21:19 "resting" was nasty if any hard monster came near, and one usually did 11:21:54 i like new abyss a lot 11:22:13 still, doing any kind of abyss for more than 20 minutes gets boring 11:22:46 partially because there is no sense of progress 11:23:32 theres no carrot dangling in front of you, just the promise that there is a carrot somewhere. no noticeable milestones, like the levels of regular branches. 11:23:50 and i dont think that can be easily fixed 11:25:57 about dwarf in elf: imo deep dwarves are not good enemies for regular levels because no regen means you can just whittle them down and rest between fights (at least with a god with slow piety decay). 11:26:14 having several small dwarf portal vaults might be better 11:26:25 good point 11:27:26 with portal vaults becoming just like regular levels, randomly generated layouts for portal vaults should be doable, right? 11:28:20 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:23 they already are doable 11:30:10 use mountain dwarves instead of deep dwarves 11:30:13 why not mini vaults within the elf castle? 11:30:21 dd monsters have had a ton of effort put into them and still sort of suck 11:30:26 is there a problem with the elves having visitting dwarven dignitaries? 11:45:01 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:48 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:03:54 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:20 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:28 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:19:29 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110929064733]] 12:37:01 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:56 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:43:38 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:49:03 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:03 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:24 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:46 -!- rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:11 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:30 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:00 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:25 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:43:12 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:56:07 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:47 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:48 dpeg: nice interview! lots of interesting stuff in there. 14:00:57 -!- rejuxst has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:00:57 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:06:32 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:40 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:21:55 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 14:23:50 -!- rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:18 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:58 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:14 so how is the release going? 14:54:30 i assume its not tagged and bagged yet? 14:54:43 -!- rejuxst has left ##crawl-dev 14:54:47 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:57:35 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:57:35 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 14:58:43 alefury: thanks! (just back from Go) 14:59:54 I've never used Skype before, so I had no idea how it'd turn out. 15:00:37 i enjoyed it as well, very interesting 15:00:45 kilobyte said he was aiming to release today, but it hasn't been tagged yet 15:01:37 poor Napkin :) 15:05:08 -!- alefury has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:30 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:46 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: n8] 15:48:08 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50:45 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:13 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:55 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:18:56 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ragdoll] 16:28:50 -!- Felyza__ is now known as Felyza 16:37:43 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 16:51:07 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:33 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:59:46 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 17:03:50 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:18:42 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:15 -!- cbus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:47 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:51 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:10 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:20 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:07 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06:15 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:45 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:51 Error calling monster-trunk: 18:09:51 %??erica 18:10:07 alefury: noch wach? 18:10:19 Error calling monster-trunk: 18:10:19 %?? dissolution 18:10:23 jo, aber ich geh gleich schlafen 18:10:52 was gibts denn? 18:11:24 Nüscht! 18:11:53 na dann gute nacht! du als produktives mitglied der gesellschaft solltest doch eh längst schlafen :P 18:12:21 * dpeg muss arbeiten. 18:12:35 * alefury schaut auf die uhr 18:12:42 wtf? 18:12:45 * dpeg schaut da nicht hin. 18:12:54 Deadline und so. 18:12:57 ugh 18:13:15 na dann viel erfolg, lass dich durch die müdigkeit nicht zu sehr aufhalten 18:13:21 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.1/20120208060813]] 18:22:35 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:30 -!- dtsund has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:32:14 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 18:39:02 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 19:14:28 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:14:31 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:38 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:19:27 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:20 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:33:26 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:38 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:47 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 19:51:06 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 19:53:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54:51 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 19:56:03 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:14 -!- tejing1 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:14 -!- tejing has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:17 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:06 Fedhas does not decompose specific zombie in pestilence swamp vault (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5317) by raskol 20:19:42 -!- Wensley has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:00 <|amethys1> howdy 20:20:04 -!- |amethys1 is now known as |amethyst 20:20:11 <|amethyst> everything working okay with Chei? 20:20:34 <|amethyst> dpeg! 20:24:22 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:07 |amethyst: Hi! :) 20:31:35 |amethyst: what Chei changes do you refer to? 20:32:30 <|amethyst> no changes 20:32:37 ah 20:32:49 I won a Chei guy somewhat recently. seemed okay 20:32:50 <|amethyst> I just haven't checked on it in at least a few weeks 20:33:00 ah, you mean the other Chei :) 20:33:02 <|amethyst> I mean the bot :) 20:33:07 people were having trouble with getting monster lookup to work earlier i think? 20:33:11 <|amethyst> hm 20:33:20 Error calling monster-trunk: 20:33:20 <|amethyst> %?? asp 20:33:28 yeah, with that error 20:34:19 orc (04o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3. 20:34:19 %??orc 20:34:25 its weird how some things work and others dont 20:34:47 orc (04o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3. 20:34:47 <|amethyst> %?? orc 20:34:52 adder (09S) | Speed: 13 (swim: 60%) | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 1/15 | Damage: 508(poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(8), 12drown | XP: 13. 20:34:52 <|amethyst> %?? adder 20:35:02 Error calling monster-trunk: 20:35:02 <|amethyst> %?? quythulg 20:35:14 <|amethyst> I wonder why it's not giving the usage message 20:35:19 I've seen that error for legit monsters 20:35:41 Error calling monster-trunk: 20:35:41 %??erica 20:35:49 uniques, maybe? 20:35:52 Error calling monster-trunk: 20:35:52 %??Erica 20:35:54 it was erica and dissolution earlier 20:35:59 <|amethyst> oh, segfault 20:36:38 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:45 <|amethyst> sadly, I have no time to debug it right now 20:37:08 |amethyst: will you be around for the tournament? 20:37:10 <|amethyst> it does seem to be uniques 20:37:15 <|amethyst> probably not :( 20:37:20 what a pity 20:37:35 I won't have much time either, but I'll try to get one runelock win. 20:37:45 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:55 <|amethyst> It'd be hundreds of games for me to get a win :) 20:38:26 <|amethyst> or, as in the last tournament, a Zot splat 20:39:29 hey, that's not shabby 20:40:20 -!- jeanjacques_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:12 <|amethyst> rebuilding monster-trunk to see if that fixes anything 20:44:33 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:45:53 -!- jeanjacques_ is now known as jeanjacques 20:50:00 <|amethyst> nope, still broken 20:50:48 <|amethyst> the error is a segfault from 20:50:50 <|amethyst> 562 const std::string mname = mp->name(DESC_PLAIN, true); 20:50:54 <|amethyst> in monster-main.cc 20:51:09 <|amethyst> if someone wants to take a look at it, my repo is at http://s-z.org/neil/git/monster-trunk.git/ 20:51:30 <|amethyst> (it's not from mp being NULL either) 21:11:19 -!- st_ has quit [] 21:17:00 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: farewell] 21:38:30 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:55 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:26 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:50 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 21:45:45 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 21:46:18 -!- greatzebu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:34 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 21:55:37 Sleeping submerged enemies are goofy, also butterflies (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=896) by OG17 21:57:10 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 22:17:40 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:05:27 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:28 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:33 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:29:12 -!- Wensley has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:44:41 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:46:08 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:46:46 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:22 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:37 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:52 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:57:37 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 23:58:45 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened]