00:00:34 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:01:02 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-167-gbed1a4c (32) 00:08:44 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-167-gbed1a4c 00:24:54 -!- upsy_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:44:01 kilobyte: regarding the manual changes you just made, I'm pretty sure "targetting" isn't a correct spelling, in any version of english. Just a very common misspelling 00:44:20 also, I just found this: 78d8ab0606f4ba07ce88212fa3d01b4d84485be7 :P 01:29:01 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:14:45 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:39 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 02:50:04 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:04:18 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:25:43 that secret monger: http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/2012/02/episode-23-interview-with-david-ploog.html 03:26:57 hehe "Of minotaurs and mountain dwarves" 03:40:49 thanks for the link! 03:51:23 -!- Xiberia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:05 -!- rax has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:06 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:07 -!- jarpiain has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:07 -!- ais523 has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:07 -!- kunwon1 has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:08 -!- due has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:08 -!- jle has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:08 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:08 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:08 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:08 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:09 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:09 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 03:56:09 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [*.net *.split] 03:59:38 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:39 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:39 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:13 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 04:05:52 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:43 -!- the_glow has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:08:45 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:22:36 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:16 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37:36 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37:48 -!- kunwon1 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:49 -!- due has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:49 -!- jle has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:49 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:49 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:49 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:49 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:50 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:50 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 04:37:50 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [*.net *.split] 04:39:19 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:19 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:06 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:57:39 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:05 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-167-gbed1a4c 05:05:34 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:07:19 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:41 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:25:03 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:56 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:30 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:50:30 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:57 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08:55 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:04 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:54 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:55:26 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:19:32 Windows builds of pre-release branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-b1-117-g5346395 07:47:58 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:46 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:59 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:36:24 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:36:55 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:29 Zig sprint is alive! 10:05:03 hm silent spectres affecting other rooms is a problem 10:06:53 03MarvinPA * rf66e376dc91b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ability.txt: Fix Summon Divine Warrior's description, angels can't stay permanently 10:07:17 maybe you can order the rooms such that players will enter the silent spectre room before entering any nearby one? 10:07:26 st_: shouldn't be too hard to make a special version with lower range 10:07:36 afaik the monster sets will be random? 10:08:00 so that would be impossible 10:08:08 -!- Guest76258 is now known as chrisoelmueller 10:08:25 yeah, also there's no way I can reorganise rooms 10:08:38 well, I was assuming that they wouldn't be completely random and that there would only be a couple rooms with a chance of a silent spectre 10:08:53 I'll just change the crypt monster sets, won't be sad to get rid of silence 10:09:14 without spectres crypt zig is pretty boring 10:09:27 could just use a statue or something, though, or eyes of draining :) 10:09:32 it's completely random right now, except no holies before rooms 7 or so and hell branches are combines before then also 10:09:42 the spectres don't make crypt zig more interesting 10:09:59 they just mean that the vampires and necromancers don't do anything 10:10:55 i experimented a little with extra curse skulls and toes on crypt floors 10:11:07 it made them pretty hard, but also more annoying 10:11:19 also, one of these is affected by silence, not sure which one 10:11:47 one of which? 10:11:52 those were a lot more interesting: you get to choose between silence or torment + summonspam 10:11:53 skulls and toes 10:11:59 i was surprised 10:12:08 curse skull (11z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 66 | AC/EV: 40/3 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1810 | Sp: summon undead, torment symbol. 10:12:08 %??curse skull 10:12:10 curse toe (08z) | Speed: 12 (move: 200%) | HD: 14 | Health: 77 | AC/EV: 50/1 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 7890 | Sp: summon undead, mushrooms, torment symbol. 10:12:10 %??curse toe 10:12:12 gretell disagrees, as does my experience with them 10:12:21 hm, this is weird 10:12:56 my experience disagreed too, which is why i was so surprised 10:13:02 probably i was just seeing things yet again :/ 10:13:10 heh, I think I need to give less weight to pan rooms, this map has 4 and rooms 26/27 are Pan (and have more &s than a zig:27 would) 10:13:32 alefury: well, maybe you got lucky and one of them didn't cast any spells for many turns in a row... could happen 10:13:44 i tried like 10 of those floors 10:13:56 might have been zig stupor 10:14:34 going through zig floors with a char proficient in melee and firestorm in wizmode is pretty boring 10:15:31 also, message spam 10:15:59 &&&&&&&& 38 pandemonium lords 10:16:11 well, tested and they both cast in a silent spectre silence field 10:16:24 I notice that curse toe makes no message when it summons mushrooms though 10:16:29 this was a few months ago, but shouldnt have changed 10:18:50 anyway, adding extra curse x to crypt levels is not such a good idea, it really kind of sucked 10:19:48 also, holy shit, 50 AC 10:20:17 is that really necessary? its basically a giant "go fuck yourself" to chars without dispel undead 10:20:34 which matches my experience with curse skulls and toes 10:20:42 you can melee them down 10:21:00 the 50 or 40 AC looks scarier than it is 10:21:07 torment and summons kind of hurt, though... 10:21:20 sure, I'm pretty sure hurting is intended behavior :P 10:21:54 yeah, of curse. i think a bit more HP and less AC wouldnt hurt, though 10:22:07 one doesn't move and the other moves really slowly, also 10:22:24 "go fuck yourself" is a viable strategy, yes 10:22:42 increasing HP and decreasing AC by a bit could be reasonable, yes 10:23:29 partly this is just a problem with dispel undead being so ridiculous against undead that nothing else can ever compete 10:24:23 firestorm works well too 10:24:28 :) 10:24:34 what i don't get is why curse toes have 1 EV 10:24:40 they're smaller and actually mobile 10:27:16 maybe theyre not smaller 10:27:25 maybe they are gigantic swollen toes 10:27:28 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:28 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:37 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:38 -!- ZorbaGama has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:39 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 10:27:56 the bots should probably mention size, now that constriction is in 10:30:13 03kilobyte * r61d6b406cdbf 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: If creation of AK abyss fails, regenerate the level. 10:30:14 03kilobyte * rac12d3ff1476 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Use ! rather than ^true for boolean negation. 10:30:14 03kilobyte * r0dcda42d3087 10/crawl-ref/source/cellular.cc: Make "huge" values in Worley more huge. 10:30:14 03kilobyte * ra6555f7657dd 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Fix Abyss map mask being uninitialized. 10:30:15 03kilobyte * r02c8df085666 10/crawl-ref/source/shout.cc: Fix use of unitialized values during noise propagation. 10:30:56 st_: perhaps too late, but what about not creating other rooms until you finished the previous one? 10:31:29 would work for Xom monster detection, the Dowsing card, glassification, etc 10:31:42 kilobyte: yes elliptic suggested that and I think it would be better, but I'm not good enough to actually be able to do it 10:32:54 or perhaps remove all monsters and items, flushing the level with rock and calling place_vault() again 10:35:28 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 10:38:03 oh man shapeshifter rooms are as awesome as I thought they'd be 10:49:10 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:08 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110929064733]] 11:28:02 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:47 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:53 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:31:55 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 11:47:12 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:55 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:54:16 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:25 -!- syllogism has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:57 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:52 -!- syllogism has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:51 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:09 -!- syllogism has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:34 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:53 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:11 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:40 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:16:40 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 12:29:10 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:01 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:50:15 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:44 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:11 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:57:14 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:32 -!- SamB_ is now known as SamB 13:08:06 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:34 -!- ivan`` has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:43 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:51 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:11 !tell kilobyte I've uploaded 0.9.2 mac binaries to CDO. Is there a time picked for the 0.10 release yet? I'd like to have mac binaries available when we first release. 14:31:11 greatzebu: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:33:23 greatzebu: Feb 15 is the plan, I believe 14:33:38 ok, thanks elliptic 14:34:08 greatzebu: great, thanks a bunch! 14:34:08 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 14:34:18 my pleasure 14:34:52 I _think_ there are no show stoppers anymore, so any time of day would be ok 14:36:15 I can build Debian and Windows packages even from the phone in the bed, can't do that with Mac 14:36:29 at what time would you be available to prepare them? 14:37:32 any time, really. As soon as 0.10 is tagged I can have binaries ready in a few minutes 14:38:22 (strictly speaking, I can't currently test native tiles on the phone, and RDP produces resolution slightly less than the phone's screen, resulting in less than 800x480 which is Crawl's absolute minimum, but you get the idea :p) 14:38:33 right :) 14:38:35 cool 14:41:09 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:42:34 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:42 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:45 -!- Felyza has joined ##crawl-dev 14:57:34 kilobyte: do you know anything about this "Item buggily placed in feature at..." bug? 14:58:36 I don't know what causes it but it is sort of frequent (usually in abyss?) so it would be nice to fix it for 0.10 15:01:44 Flavour text plural/singular mismatch with book. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5311) by Felyza 15:02:16 Ah, you do have an autoreporter 15:07:18 elliptic: oh hrm, would be nice to fix too 15:07:40 do we have a way to semi-reliable reproduce it? 15:09:14 Felyza: hrm, this is wrong for this, ?_lugonu_bribe, and ?_trog_book 15:09:40 book redefinitions don't allow descriptions, AFAIK 15:10:06 Is it using flavour of another book? 15:10:17 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:10:22 I don't have source code setup, just off what's in game. 15:12:35 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:15 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.26/20120128224517]] 15:17:41 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:05 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:55 i dont see the problem 15:51:06 a box of chocolates with just one left is still a box of chocolates 15:51:19 im no native speaker, but to me plural sounds fine there 15:53:47 -!- Forthwith has joined ##crawl-dev 15:59:27 As a native speaker I also think that's fine, although I like the suggested flavor text also 16:02:20 -!- Forthwith has quit [Quit: Gotta go] 16:08:33 well 16:08:38 an empty box of chocolates is still called that 16:08:54 because that's its function/purpose 16:08:58 so I agree 16:09:28 "A book of magic spells" might be seen as different from that 16:09:31 because it's more descriptive 16:12:37 -!- rejuxst1 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:20:34 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:21:20 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:52 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:24:46 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:29 Hi there. I'd like to talk about some numbers regarding vehumet spell gifting... 16:27:38 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:38 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 16:28:35 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ragdoll] 16:30:19 I guess in addition to a piety hit, we also want a gift timeout 16:30:39 heyhey 16:30:57 hi 16:31:18 I came up with a pretty random: 16:31:19 _inc_gift_timeout(spell_difficulty(you.vehumet_gift_spell) + random2avg(19, 2)); 16:31:32 for an accepted spell 16:31:38 there shouldn't be a piety decrease when you accept a spell 16:31:43 just a timeout 16:32:10 i think the proposal on the mantis item does mention costing piety, but possibly it should just be a timeout, yeah 16:32:17 timeouts have the effect of decreasing piety gain while they are in effect 16:32:54 it doesn't make any sense that vehumet would like you less suddenly after you decide to accept a destructive spell into your memory... if anything, it should be the other way around! 16:33:12 I did a piety hit because, as Marvin mentioned, the implementable propes a piety hit 16:33:31 propes = proposes 16:33:46 i agree, it's better to use the normal gift timeout mechanic rather than a direct piety hit 16:33:47 evilmike: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:33:57 what would be an appropiate value for timeout? 16:34:25 this probably correlates to my other question: what piety condition do we use to give a gift. 16:35:00 theres no good example as the other gods start gifting later... execpt Yred 16:35:09 I'm also generally worried about the proposal in the implementable just making a strong god stronger, btw 16:35:27 Yred has: 16:35:28 || (random2(you.piety) >= piety_breakpoint(2) 16:35:28 && one_chance_in(4))) 16:36:02 well making him stronger is about numbers, no? 16:36:30 could also take a look at the other passives and maybe tone them down if need be once it's implemented 16:36:30 MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:36:31 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:36:56 maybe i should check if you are actually in the channel before using !tell 16:37:03 haha yeah, that confused me 16:37:46 I don't know how strong the impace of not supporting summonings is. My feeling is that most people use Vehumet for Conjurations though 16:37:54 yeah 16:38:46 yeah, and moving away from guaranteeing the exact same spells every game is a good thing regardless, so the rest of the balance can be tweaked around it probably 16:39:37 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 16:39:40 marvinpa: well, the proposal seems to be guaranteeing every destructive spell in the game given time... 16:39:43 well.. it's still the same spells, as he will gift all destructive spells over the course of a game.. 16:39:53 ldierk: actually *more* spells 16:40:12 some of the best destructive spells aren't gifted at all currently 16:40:13 yes 16:40:19 it also proposes slowing down over time, though 16:40:48 that would be handled with the gift timeout increasing with spell level, correct? 16:41:51 marvinpa: what about making the number of spells you are offered each game finite rather than encouraging people to grind abyss for *L9 spell of choice* 16:42:52 yeah, that would probably be better than just increasingly slowing down 16:42:53 another possibilty would be to gift every spell only once. you miss out if you don't have enough levels. That would not avoid grinding though 16:43:25 as far as the piety conditions go, i'm not great at coming up with numbers but maybe something based on yred's gifting model would be reasonable? 16:43:44 ldierk: that would encourage carrying around amnesia scrolls or books, depending on how long you have to learn a spell that's gifted 16:44:35 I chose a duration of 500 for now. Is using a you.duration for that ok btw? Or is it abusing the duration system? 16:45:27 marvinpa: yred gifts increase in frequency as you gain piety, according to the formula ldierk posted above 16:46:13 ldierk: if you mean for the duration during which you can memorize the spell, I think that's fine 16:46:23 yes I do 16:46:25 oh right, yeah 16:46:50 one could add something like one_chance_in( spells_gifted^2) 16:47:11 500 is enough to travel to your stash in most circumstances, so you wouldn't be encouraged to dump amnesia scrolls on every level (or something equally bad). I think that's the main consideration for the duration 16:47:33 ~50 Turns is no enough to travel to your stash ?! 16:47:42 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:47:53 Will 0.10 announce the survey on the starting screen? 16:47:55 depends on where your stash is. I'm thinking of a fairly central location, eg lair 16:48:13 50 won't take you from lair:8 to lair:2 does it? 16:48:55 is encouraging you to carry around amnesia really a problem? it just turns it into a more valuable type of resource, if you're worshipping veh 16:49:22 dpeg: I asked about this a day or two ago, and I have no idea who is working on the survey or if there's a complete one anywhere 16:49:24 ldierk: Hi! I cannot reply on Mantis anymore, thanks for looking into this. 16:49:25 no I think its good. There has to be the possibility to not get a gift. 16:49:35 evilmike: the survey is long complete, as I've told you already. 16:50:02 dpeg: thx. Is your browser broken :) ? 16:50:09 dpeg: Is there a link to it anywhere? 16:50:11 ldierk: I am only "visitor" on Mantis. 16:50:27 DPEG <# 16:50:40 evilmike: There is a CDO page set up, though I don't know off-hand where it is parked. 16:50:41 dpeg: I haven't had a chance to listen to your entire interview, but hugs! 16:50:44 Best to ask Napkin. 16:51:01 <3 ! 16:51:01 due: Hi! I'm here on foot and with peaceful intentions. 16:51:06 hm. I thought everyone is allowed to register and reply *confused*... 16:51:18 dpeg: :) I finally got a chance to properly play Twilight Struggle through a few dozen times; it is excelllent. 16:51:55 is there a transcript of the interview? I find it pretty hard to listen to, and reading is >10x faster than speech. 16:51:59 due: I hope no one is offended by the interview, I only realised later on that I managed to not speak about my mistakes at all. A bit embarassing that. 16:52:08 dpeg: What mistakes? ;) 16:52:12 kilobyte: of course not 16:52:47 Actually, I am reminded that I should probably take my name out of the credits and move myself to inactive developers; I unsubscribed from c-r-c and mantis emails this weekend. I don't have motivation to do stuff at the minute :( 16:52:48 Napkin: got a moment? 16:52:54 the big mistake is trying to run away! 16:52:55 Apart from occasionally saying boring things in here :) 16:53:08 I listened to the interview last night, it seemed good. I didn't notice anything wrong with it 16:53:13 evilmike: cool 16:53:24 the other people there sounded confused when you played music, maybe that's just my impression though 16:53:24 dpeg: You did make a massive mistake though -- I think you would make awesome board games. 16:53:37 concerning saving: spell gifted, spell gift duration, and recent spell list is the minimum to save, no? 16:53:37 The bits about communication are really serious, though. We never really settled them properly, so you have to think about that now :) 16:53:40 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:51 dpeg: And I totally agree about communication, but... 16:53:55 evilmike: I told them to keep straight faces... 16:53:58 dpeg: You are not allowed to pre-empt me. 16:54:16 dpeg: But I'm not sure what solution there would be; also, you can probably partially blame me for making -dev popular :) 16:54:21 I dont use the c-r-d mailing list because it's moderated and last time I sent a message to it, it took a while to go through 16:54:27 easier for me to use irc or tavern 16:54:30 due: I once wrote a book about abstract board games. Didn't find a publisher, though. 16:54:46 dpeg: What language is said book in? :D 16:54:48 evilmike: that is fine, but only compounds to the problem. 16:54:51 due: German. 16:55:00 dpeg: Bah! My German is pathetic. 16:55:07 But abstract board games. <3 16:55:25 Now I have an idea for a solo roguelike board game. 16:55:28 dpeg: yeah I know. And that mailing list has a lot of subscribers too. I read it, at least, just can't really talk about anything on it in an efficient way 16:55:33 due: play "Lines of Action" some time 16:55:42 evilmike: Except which colour not to paint the bike shed? 16:56:02 dpeg: Also, the only thing I wanted to mention was that I approved several of the cmoments on the mountain dwarf blog post :) 16:56:10 due: you're not allowed to sneak off before you polish up the holyhaul and at least describe that eldritch stuff and homonculus :p There is absolutely no need to hurry though -- no motivation means it's better to pause. 16:56:15 evilmike: it is a sign that something should be changed. Developers like dolorous are mostly left out, which is a shame. I know that one reason why jpg dropped is because she just wouldn't hear from the others anymore. 16:56:19 kilobyte: Yes, I know 16:56:34 ldierk: i think that sounds like everything, yeah 16:56:48 ldierk: is there a Vehumet question I can help with? 16:57:01 dpeg: Crawl has kind of morphed from being a slow-development game via mailing list to being a part of the Social Generation with all the joys of instantaneous communication. 16:57:09 I'll ask Napkin to tell you the webpage for the survey, okay? Giving that link will suffice. 16:57:15 dpeg: that's a big issue, yeah... there's too many channels for one person to follow them all 16:57:27 like, I don't do Tavern or SA 16:57:31 due: but that is not good for development purposes. 16:57:41 kilobyte: SA is completely irrelevant for dev stuff. 16:57:46 dpeg: well, yes :) 16:58:18 due: given that I left because I couldn't stand the sudden (to me) reverts, for example. Yes, they were discussed here, but they felt like stabs in the back to me. 16:58:38 dpeg: remember, reverts are easy to revert! 16:58:51 kilobyte: no, that's not the way it works (at least not my brain). 16:59:24 I am also afraid that wiki is dying a slow death now... it does have lots of content, but with no one around to water it. 16:59:31 !seen keskitalo 16:59:31 I last saw Keskitalo at Sat Jan 7 12:29:46 2012 UTC (5w 2d 10h 29m 45s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection. 16:59:35 dpeg: I'm currently trying to find some sane numbers for gift timeout and gift gifting propability 16:59:51 dpeg: The game iwll continue; whether in an identifiable form -- who knows? 17:00:02 ldierk: first spell at * seems fine, I guess? 17:00:03 dpeg: I've developed a game where any change took several layers of voting beforehand, severe infighting, partisanship and political drama. Anything took months. 17:00:05 dpeg: But we'll know how Linley et al feel :) 17:00:34 in Crawl, you just talk on IRC, make a change then see if anyone shouts loud enough 17:00:42 the implementable lists **, my first try starts at * though. 17:00:55 ldierk: yes, earlier is probably better 17:01:13 this is so much better... but only if people agree that reverts are not personal attacks 17:01:16 the problem is I don't have much time for playtesting that stuff. It's either code or play :) 17:01:27 kilobyte: to be honest, I don't think that is not the best approach... you have developers not on IRC. 17:01:36 I am sure dolorous would be happy about agenda mails. 17:01:52 I haven't witnessed a single revert war, too. This is so different from, say, Wikipedia. 17:01:59 hmm yeah 17:02:04 ldierk: what model for spell giving do you use? Inject into brain? Announce and let the player forget a spell? 17:02:04 kilobyte: targetting!! 17:02:14 dpeg: (On the note of music, this is my currnet passion; I have immersed myself into piano and musical theory!) 17:02:20 gift an ability to learn a spell for x turns 17:02:23 dpeg: (So perhaps I will end up composing incidental music for crawl1) 17:02:28 due: as it happens, I am taking piano lessons together with my son :) 17:02:33 dpeg: :D 17:02:41 perhaps we could send regular updates to the mailing list? Nothing huge, just monthly summaries on stuff that's been talked about in ##crawl-dev or whatever. I'm not sure what would be written in those mails though 17:02:48 dpeg: I'm currently reading Alfred Schoenberg's Structural functions of harmony! It is fascinating and awesome. 17:02:55 it's just a thought of how to include non-irc-using people 17:03:03 evilmike: if I had a really good proposal on that, I'd make it 17:03:05 evilmike: A combination of my weekly commit-log posts plus chat-room summaries would be awesome. 17:03:30 evilmike: hmm, but not sure one sed job in 2009 and revert in 2011 counts as a full-fledged war 17:03:33 dpeg: (The English translation, of course.) 17:03:35 I believe that one good idea is to announce larger stuff via mail ... this includes reverts of others. 17:03:43 Wait a day, then push. 17:03:54 I'm still silently planning to revert guardian serpents. >:) 17:03:55 and it's not settled... note that I intentionally not put it in 0.10, which uses the US spelling 17:04:53 I just use the OED for stuff like this, usually. Even though I'm canadian, and we're supposed to use some bastard hybrid of US and British spelling here 17:05:12 due: I have no emotional attachment to guardian serpents (anymore) but I am really sad that the gold god, demigod worshippers and Lugonu altar corruption may fade away now... only my fault, of course. 17:05:14 which word is this? I thought Crawl used Commonwealth English 17:05:23 ais523: targeting 17:05:30 actually, Australian. And I think we have an authoritative person here. 17:05:31 ais523: Australian English 17:05:37 dpeg: Linley Henzell uses -tt- 17:05:41 And I honestly don't know, let me check Macquarie. 17:05:43 dpeg: I think the problem was that there was no evidence that "targetting" was actually a word in any variant of English 17:05:48 Darshan would silently (without telling me) revert all my "targetting" to "targeting", so I assumed that was the right thing to do. 17:06:01 kilobyte: http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/ 17:06:08 kilobyte: Is the standard Australian reference dictionary. 17:06:09 due: I'd be willing to write up small summaries on ##crawl-dev stuff if we can figure out some kind of general format. Maybe it could just be a list of points? 17:06:28 evilmike: yes, really brief. You just want to check if it tickles someone's fancy. 17:06:36 when I'm not in this channel I read the IRC logs, so I at least know what's going on in ##crawl-dev. I'll miss stuff discussed in ##crawl usually, though 17:06:38 But either way, it is work. 17:07:06 I'm thinking either bi-weekly or monthly 17:07:18 Some sort of agreed-upon !flag to highlight important conversation could work. 17:07:24 would be a good start, even I'd read it 17:08:33 evilmike: Even a one-sentence summary with a link to timestamsp would be good. 17:08:36 What format are the logs in? 17:08:40 plain text 17:08:41 evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:09:03 Hm, some sort of text->HTML parser might allow you to create per-line anchors which could then be used to link to conversation later. 17:10:21 it's at least easy enough to link to logs. There's one .log for each day, and the messages are all time stamped of course 17:10:41 due: it says both forms are as good 17:11:05 kilobyte: Oh -- where did you find that? 17:11:10 kilobyte: I can't get into the sactual content, ffs. 17:11:36 on another note: I don't know if it is a good idea to gift spells you have seen but destroyed, as the game does not currently track that 17:12:22 due: there's vile mandatory registration ("trial access") that works for 30 days. So you give it billgates123@mailinator.com 17:12:33 http://sprunge.us/gEUb 17:12:36 bi-weekly would probably be better than monthly 17:12:57 Username: buggrit@mailinator.com 17:12:58 Password: 6654 17:13:08 alefury: yeah, I think for monthly I'd actually have to actively take notes so I dont forget anything :P 17:13:58 i think it might bring a lot of new people in too 17:14:03 rather than sticking to a schedule, tell people about things when they happen 17:14:11 has a point 17:14:15 chrisoelmueller: that way were back at square one 17:14:20 don't ask for opinions on stuff that's been implemented three weeks ago, nobody will want to change it at that time 17:14:22 without a schedule, nothing happens 17:14:45 I'd rather use a schedule, for those reasons 17:15:28 well i can't really say that i have not experienced this myself, but we just dropped the ML because nobody would feel happy with writing such summaries 17:16:01 what to talk about: very major commits, major undiscussed commits, stuff that someone is working on that may be controversial, any stuff you would like to discuss 17:16:14 now we just drop info lines in our weekly meeting logs about what happened, and those logs are formatted enough so that interested people can check them 17:16:33 kilobyte: If both are corr3ect, then I would go for whatever linley used. 17:16:38 the problem is, there are no weekly meetings, discussion just tends to crop up organically 17:17:00 i follow development pretty closely, but i usually dont read the irc logs 17:17:09 just too much hassle 17:17:23 so things get lost 17:17:35 I just read the git log 17:17:57 easier for people to just !tell evilmike to mention something, and leave the rest up to him if hes willing to write it 17:18:18 I don't mind sending out a list of points every other week 17:18:20 kilobyte: I vote for targetting myself. 17:18:23 well yeah i'd ask nobody to track ##crawl discussions 17:18:31 my idea is just to keep people updated on what's going on in IRC 17:18:36 chrisoelmueller: There are ever any sane, pontful ##crawl discussion? 17:18:45 no idea, i don't read the logs there :P 17:18:48 dpeg: I'll compose you a heavy-metal theme for the orb ;) 17:18:49 id set it up like this: what has happened, what is going to happen if nobody complains, what should be discussed 17:19:00 alefury: I like tha. 17:19:08 dpeg: Complete with screamo computer-generated voice! 17:19:41 But I want no heavy metal, I want altar corruption! :) 17:20:15 due: there is some discussion in ##crawl. mostly with e and M, most other devs dont seem to hang around there much. sometimes the discussion even turn into commits. 17:21:09 * dpeg remembers how he quit in disgust from ##crawl. 17:21:13 I have had useful things come out of ##crawl. but usually I just slip further into insanity 17:21:16 but its not something anyone would be expected to follow. its just that a lot of stuff doesnt end up on mantis, but does come up in ##crawl. 17:21:21 dpeg: My solution these days is to just ban the people that I disagree with. 17:21:29 <-- Despot. 17:24:08 (I scared everyone off. COOL!) 17:24:11 evilmike: yes, it is good to have someone listen to what the players have to say. Another form of stress, at least it was for me. 17:24:18 03kilobyte * ra5fc037d872c 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/release.txt: Update the release process documentation. 17:24:49 kilobyte: Homunculus, eldritch horrors an dholy -- was that all I left undone? 17:25:09 Wizlabs too, I Guess. 17:25:16 need more wizlabs 17:25:22 dpeg: funny thing is, I follow SA, Tavern, Reddit, ##crawl-dev, and participate in all of those. Also frequent ##crawl. It's only the last one that really bugs me :P 17:25:28 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:25:39 evilmike: ##crawl is a cesspit :D 17:25:43 it's not so much players complaining about stuff or saying silly things, I think it's just too busy and there are too many crazy people 17:25:43 is ##crawl really worth than SA? 17:25:49 *worse 17:25:49 due: sound code is unmaintained, but since we can use anything GPL-compatible now, I bet when anyone gathers some sound effects, there will be motivation to fix the code. 17:25:51 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25:54 SA is heavily moderated. Terrible posters are banned 17:26:10 alefury: SA is /b/ with a paywall 17:26:17 urgh 17:26:27 evilmike: don't know about you, but I had to explain the same things over and over again, and I got similar kinds of personal attacks. 17:26:34 you have to pay for SA? 17:26:44 it's a lot to follow, regardless. and time zone differences make it even tougher 17:26:48 kilobyte: I was thinking more music rather than sound effects, myself. 17:26:49 10 dollar one time fee 17:27:01 that seems silly 17:27:11 if you get banned, you can pay that again to re-register. it seems to work, usually 17:27:24 afaik the forums dont even generate much money from account registrations, its mostly ads 17:27:25 i mean people paying seems silly. the idea to charge money for people to get in is brilliant. 17:27:49 collective experience of money 17:28:07 makes bans actually meaningful, and keeps out people who have no business there anyway 17:28:09 even avatars become a *thing* when you have to pay for them 17:28:10 LordSloth once gifted an SA account to me. I actually posted there... until I threw a tantrum :) 17:28:21 yes, I remember when that happened :P 17:28:36 it's worth $10 to use a forum where ridiculous trolling isn't free and easy 17:28:43 evilmike: I realised that (a) yes, we listen to players; (b) there is no reason to explain anything more than once. 17:28:50 oh, they're doing that thing around the month 17:28:59 I put that money into my EFF or The Pirate Bay fund instead (ok, been 5 years / 2 years respectively since I donated, but still) 17:28:59 dpeg: what I do is I explain stuff, but try to avoid justifying new features 17:29:00 you know, there are forums where ridiculous trolling actually doesnt happen, because nice people come there. 17:29:05 I don't get into arguments iwth players in the SA thread 17:29:20 do they advertise for nice people 17:29:24 evilmike: yes, I guess I fell into that trap. It never works. 17:29:47 and by the way, did you hear about that public smear campaign SA started against Reddit recently, blaming them for not censoring things enough? 17:29:47 HangedMan: i dont know, i use an adblocker 17:30:35 alefury: you definitely need nice people, but it's not bad to have a little moat to discourage the barbarians from wrecking up the place 17:30:46 Anyway just so somethign comes out of this: I'll send out the first ##crawl-dev summary on the 25th (saturday) and if I forget, just yell at me. I'm not going to think too much about what goes on it, for now it will just be a brief point-by-point summary of stuff I think is noteworthy 17:30:49 I don't know much about it, just what I read on Slashdot, but with my views on censorship, that's enough 17:30:52 'not censoring things enough'? that's a nice way to put it 17:31:00 awesome interview, dpeg <3 17:31:08 * kilobyte clears his throat for the yelling :p 17:31:29 and i still can't accept your resignation ;-P 17:31:31 if it becomes obvious that something better can be made of the writeups I do, then something can be figured out. I'll probably avoid talking about future stuff for now though 17:31:32 g'night o/ 17:31:36 Napkin: me either 17:31:43 * due hugs Napkin. 17:31:53 :) 17:32:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:33:17 evilmike: awesome approach 17:33:22 dpeg: there is one big fat issue: no one among current devs could possibly push an unpopular change like MD removal through. I for example often yell loud and in nasty words, but tend to give up if enough (weighted) people persist against me. 17:33:24 Napkin: is there a url for the planned survey? 17:33:42 kilobyte: yes, this evil tendency to revert, I noted it :) 17:33:48 Napkin: thanks, glad you like it. 17:34:08 i think this one is the link, evilmike: https://crawl.develz.org/survey/index.php?sid=99834 17:34:13 kilobyte: I'd be perfectly willing to be appointed a dev if I am allowed to make whatever unpopular changes I want, and receive all the blame :) 17:34:17 dpeg: I'm still glad you got rid of MD :) 17:34:17 and there is no one who could get to such a status: unless given "from the above", such a position comes from seniority 17:34:18 hey, i have lots of unpopular opinions and never give up about them 17:34:20 but only ragdoll knows 17:34:23 kilobyte: and I really, really hope that you'll be able to do unpopular stuff. If not, that means longterm stagnation, then death. 17:34:27 Napkin: thanks 17:34:32 O 17:34:42 I'll ask ragdoll about it too. Hopefully I can get a reply out of him quick 17:34:52 kilobyte: I think you're most senior now. 17:34:57 0.10 is super close so if we're actually going to include a link to this in-game, we should get this working asap 17:35:07 dpeg: eh, me? Most spammy, not most senior. 17:35:12 otherwise it's just going to be limited to a blog post, and announcement in various areas 17:35:12 kilobyte: I think you underestimate things; we can do whatever we like, just ignore the screaming. 17:35:13 please do, evilmike 17:35:16 well, it's not like popularity was any worry at all when making the MD change, a bunch of us all agreed it was a good idea so we went ahead and did it 17:35:25 how about a generic link, evilmike? 17:35:31 kilobyte: Actually, you and I joined the dev team within a few weeks, and I'm not active any more, and I don't think any of the people committing around then still are. 17:35:38 kilobyte: SO in theory you are the most senior active developer. 17:35:50 (I am just glad it is not me!) 17:35:52 Napkin: what do you mean by a generic link? 17:35:53 evilmike: just reserve a single line which contains a generic "Survey" string. Update with proper link once release is near. Also, tell us a day before release, so that we can open the gates. 17:36:20 I think we're a day before release :P 17:36:24 maybe a day plus a few hours 17:36:35 dpeg: will it be the only survey in 2012? 17:36:44 MarvinPA: yes, and I was happy about that -- as I said, the MD drama was no reason for me to step down, since I knew the devteam behind me. The question is: when will you give in to player pressure? 17:36:55 evilmike: Get napking to make crawl.develz.org/survey which can forward to whatever is the current survey. 17:36:59 Napkin: yes, it will run until the August tournament 17:37:04 (Correct answer: "never give in to player pressure") 17:37:10 arguments among the devs seems like less of an issue than diplomacy between the devs and users. the devs are mostly willing to get along, but i guess a better PR approach is needed 17:37:13 due: yes, but it's not easy. 17:37:23 dpeg: No, it is! Just ignore them. :D 17:37:34 dpeg: I'll probably have to change jobs soon, which with a 95% chance involves relocating. And that means I'm likely to be off. 17:37:37 https://crawl.develz.org/survey/2012 <- that's a direct link 17:37:38 Perfect PR = ignore the players, they're irrelevant anyway. 17:37:42 http://crawl.develz.org/survey/2012 <- that's a direct link 17:37:58 greatzebu: you cannot make unpopular decisions popular with better PR. If you try, you're a politician. 17:38:08 of course you can 17:38:18 whether someone likes a decision or not depends on the context in which they encounter the decision 17:38:20 evilmike: http://crawl.develz.org/survey/2012 <- direct link - we can point it to whatever we need later 17:38:31 just because crawl sucks at pr doesn't mean pr has to suck 17:38:42 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/survey 17:38:49 somehow I feel weird that I can check all of the 5.1 boxes except the streak one without lying 17:38:50 Napkin: ah. Well, I sent ragdoll a !tell 17:38:52 is what jpeg wrote in her c-r-d email on the topic 17:38:55 why link to http:// if it redirect to https? 17:39:05 ragdoll is probably asleep right now but I'll be online when he wakes up, probably 17:39:14 because both will work now, kilobyte 17:39:28 something in me says that it should involve variety as a marker 17:39:28 perfect dpeg, even better 17:39:38 if "the players are irrelevant" is our strategy, it's not surprising when players are upset rather than understanding when controversial changes are made 17:39:55 wait, it doesn't. That was just HTTPS-Everywhere doing it for an already visited host on my side. 17:40:08 er, HTTPS-Finder 17:40:18 greatzebu: sigh. (a) listen to players, (b) explain only once. 17:40:48 Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:06:46 +0100 -- in case someone wants to read jpeg's mail 17:40:54 too many players 17:41:10 so many of them miss explanations and think they're going to be the one to argue best 17:41:18 get less players, have less headaches 17:41:43 evilmike: better link here then: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/survey 17:41:52 it'll contain the final link later 17:41:53 true story sometimes crawl devs make the wrong decision 17:42:11 can we have a ##crawl-dev-dev already?! 17:42:12 Napkin: that would be the best one to point players to. I sent ragdoll a link to the survey itself though 17:42:14 Shocking! 17:42:21 I just want to make sure the survey is actually done 17:42:29 where did right or wrong get defined 17:42:30 evilmike: yes, we tested it thoroughly. 17:42:55 point: we develop the game in our free time for the fun of it; people are not forced to play it. 17:43:11 as for putting a link to it in-game, I think it's a reasonable idea. Does anyone oppose this? 17:43:34 no, do it 17:43:37 sounds good 17:43:50 due: point: that stopped being an interesting thing to say to players some time last century 17:43:54 I was sad to see the "megabat" revert, for example. It is a completely pointless, innocuous attempt at humour. Giving in to the screams is bad -- if we want to revert that one, we should do it silently a version later. 17:44:38 ahh, too many "agreed" for so little time 17:44:42 Eronarn: I'm not saying we should say it to players, I am just reminding people of the fact that a) this is not massive serious business, and b) the "hold" players have over us is imaginary 17:44:42 gotta run 17:44:46 g'night guys o/ 17:44:51 Napkin: thanks for coming over so quickly 17:44:52 bye 17:45:14 due: having a large playerbase that says nice things about what you do lets you feel good about the effort you put in 17:45:18 dpeg: megabats actually bothered me 17:45:33 Eronarn: so what? 17:45:36 it just didnt feel right 17:45:41 crawl is a good enough game that all we really have to do is not piss players off, and they'd be happy 17:45:54 i read a little too far in the 0.10 change list and went "what? they did the megabat thing again?" 17:45:58 that's just so wrong, Eronarn 17:46:12 a) energy change, b) zombie stair nerf, c) spell range, d) md removal 17:46:15 "don't piss players off" doesn't seem like a good way to make progress 17:46:22 crawl, it's nethack, essentially 17:46:28 alefury: good for you; I personally still love the name. 17:46:40 dpeg: was jpeg's jan 28 mail sent to c-r-d or some other mailing list? 17:46:42 someone will always be angry, regardless of what changes are made 17:46:48 because if it was some other mailing list, I'm not on it :P 17:46:50 or what the explanations are 17:46:51 or if none are made at all 17:46:52 evilmike: i didnt get it, so its not crd 17:46:58 I got it? 17:46:59 alefury: that is the problem with humour... there will never be concensus. So unless you really hate it, let it flow for a while. In any case, don't give in right away. It gives the wrong impression, imo. 17:46:59 MarvinPA: certainly sometimes we should do things that players don't like but if players don't like something that's often treated as evidence that it's the right decision 17:47:03 which is just dumb 17:47:18 I think there's a separate dev mailing list I was never added to. No one has confirmed this though so it's just a conspiracy theory 17:47:31 dpeg: i disagree. if something doesnt feel right, better to revert before release, instead of before the next release 17:47:34 i don't think i've ever seen anyone argue that, but sure 17:47:36 evilmike: There's an internal list of addresses that mail gets sent to 17:47:43 i didn't get it either yet, evilmike 17:47:52 c-r-d that is 17:48:07 ah yeah, i have that email from jpeg 17:48:08 evilmike: As in, a large to: line; possibly she just sent it to individual developers, but I'm unsure. 17:48:11 probably "i have submitted feature requests" should be removed from the survey or reworded 17:48:21 they have been deactivated for a long time 17:48:22 evilmike: she pasted all email addresses by hand... and you're not in there. (The real name vs alias stuff always drives me crazy.) 17:48:29 looks like it wasn't to the mailing list, yeah 17:48:39 MarvinPA got it, though 17:48:47 :/ 17:49:11 alefury: dancing on eggshells trying to keep everyone happy is meh 17:49:36 pleasing everybody pleases nobody 17:50:00 alefury: what does "feel" mean? This game has >20 guys on the dev list? Who decided on what? And how? 17:50:04 imo release = serious business. "silently revert one version later" seems incredibly wrong to me. 17:50:09 dpeg: regarding humour, the best way is to sneak it in and see if anyone yells at you later :P 17:50:19 see, the recent zig description addition 17:50:25 evilmike: I snuck it in and /everyone/ yelled at me constantly for months after. 17:50:26 that just seems like stupid ego bullshit 17:50:31 evilmike: and then someone reverted it abuot six months later. 17:51:18 alefury: well, in the interview that was one of the main questions... how to make sure a big project like this has direction? I don't know. 17:51:39 due: my idea to have megabats as tier 2 bats still stands :p 17:51:52 megabats, leading bat packs 17:52:06 dpeg: im not sure crawl qualifies as a big project really 17:52:07 alefury: if you want universal concensus among devs with a team this size ==> Nethack 17:52:19 a megabat is one million bats 17:52:24 devs should be required to fight each other in cage matches if there is disagreement 17:52:27 and also if there isn't 17:52:29 animals don't have leaders from different species 17:52:37 also, it seems like a pretty easy to manage project 17:52:42 alefury: aha 17:52:47 alefury: ahahahaha 17:52:50 * due coughs 17:52:54 as ero said, if you dont actively piss players off, theyre going to be happy 17:53:05 and the individual devs seem to be pretty good at what they do 17:53:13 i think i'd call crawl big just based on the codebase 17:53:17 why is keeping the players happy a priority? 17:53:22 so overall theres a lot of improvement each version, without much direction 17:53:26 alefury: sorry, I don't think you mean the same thing as we do. 17:53:33 due: whats the point in making a game? i think it should be fun to play? 17:53:51 there is actually a lot of direction 17:53:55 alefury: being fun to play is totally not equivalent to keeping the players happy 17:53:58 Who defines "fun"? If everyone does, you get garbage. 17:54:00 the wiki is full of such direction 17:54:05 alefury: because fun to play is... completely variable. 17:54:09 Zannick: not really 17:54:22 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 17:54:22 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:35 due: well, each dev does their thing, and if theres disagreement they fight a little 17:54:36 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:54:52 also, dpeg was pretty good at yelling loudly until people listened, which was great 17:55:03 but i wouldnt call it "direction" 17:55:14 more like a badass version of mediating 17:55:41 um. 17:55:50 agenda posts, to say the list? listing things that needed to be done? 17:56:04 alefury: this is more like Brownian motion and I don't think it'll do in the long run... but that may be my upbringing in a Communist country. 17:56:11 a lot of it went on behind-the-scenes, but dpeg was a massive directional force. 17:56:23 mhh, maybe i didnt notice it, yes 17:56:40 and i agree that dpeg was probably the closest to direction crawl had :/ 17:57:39 As I said, I'll be around for god stuff. :) 17:57:43 But nothing else. 17:57:46 :( 17:58:00 cant you just also yell at people? 17:58:07 or type loudly? 17:58:45 Hm, I think I mostly asked nicely for support?! And tried to mediate between factions. Of course, my impression could be completely different from everyone else's :) 17:58:55 dpeg: I still need to do dancing weapons for you :) 17:59:01 dpeg: I am certain this would ensure your return to active duty :D 17:59:25 dpeg: would you have alternate ideas what to do with constriction+tloc? :p The old version had a laundry list of problems, no one proposed a solution, and the release was already delayed. But now, 0.11 is far away so if the concerns could be addressed... 17:59:27 and judicious use of /kick when ##crawl-dev turned into ##crawl-bad-ideas 17:59:29 ;) 18:00:04 poor bad ideas 18:00:09 where is the outlet now 18:00:15 i posted my opinion on the wiki. fixed non-100% chance for blink to escape, or chance for spell failure while constricted. 18:00:17 ##crawl 18:00:18 Zannick: yes, I'll gotta have to admit that 18:00:48 taking stuff along was cool, but has problems 18:00:53 kilobyte: I think constriction is only really interesting if the hampers with tlocs. 18:01:06 have you actually played it 18:01:07 s/the/it/ 18:01:13 Eronarn: of course not! 18:01:17 I liked the dragging 18:01:18 playtesting -- beneath me 18:01:18 because it hasn't interacted with tloc for a while now and it's fine 18:01:19 alefury: what if the constrictee has stasis? 18:01:34 then he cant blink? 18:01:42 if youre constricting and blink, you let go and blink 18:01:51 alefury: yes 18:02:01 being constricted should restrict your options 18:02:12 dpeg: currently it kills you unless you have blink 18:02:16 it doesn't need to restrict all of your options 18:02:17 which is... not so good 18:02:30 alefury: yes, too much damage. But damage could build up much more slowly. 18:02:40 it already does, but you cant get out 18:02:43 My formulas were meant as the start of an iteration, as stated. 18:03:01 there are new ones in 18:03:05 even with 0 damage, it can often be sure death 18:03:32 i posted a suggestion for an escape formula on the wiki, if anyone would like to comment, please do! 18:03:34 which isn't bad by itself, unless you're on Snake:5 with teleportitis 18:03:39 dpeg: have you played Twilight Struggle yet? 18:03:43 its also easily tunable for various stuff 18:03:48 due: no time! 18:03:57 dpeg: i saw you posting on the brogue forum! its a good game! 18:04:05 alefury: I know! Depth 19 atm. 18:04:15 i got to 22, then starved :( 18:04:21 actual food clock is scary 18:04:27 alefury: yes, I was so jealous 18:04:35 the way brogue does items is so awesome 18:04:35 did they make it a roguelike already? 18:04:57 kilobyte: huh? you get random stuff, then have to survive and progress with it. how is that not a roguelike? 18:05:38 alefury: I mean, tiles which are exactly letters, but no way to play as an actual console game 18:05:40 What would be a good one-line way to describe the survey on the new game screen? 18:05:43 kilobyte: the goal is that a constricted player cannot cheaply push the emergency button -- so they have to spend some quality time with the constrictor. It would suffice, for example, if instead of the cumbersome fleeing (apologies for the lame formula on that one) repeated attacks loosen the constriction. 18:05:52 And where should it go? Underneath the copyright stuff? 18:05:54 alefury: (intentionally using this particular definition) 18:06:23 evilmike: yes. "Take part in the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup 2012 survey: [link]" ? 18:06:25 brogue has a console mode now but it's not very good 18:06:40 the game relies too much on colour, and when you limit that to 16 bad things happen 18:06:48 evilmike: please take the time to answer some questions about how you play crawl: link 18:06:55 better words would be better 18:06:59 evilmike: 256 colour looks enough to me 18:07:39 dpegs words are better 18:07:43 :) 18:08:09 his are good. it's more than 80 characters though, so I guess that's two lines 18:08:12 evilmike: any _common_ modern terminal supports that (even if curses tends to disagree due to legacy TERM crap) 18:08:22 when are we getting 256 color crawl 18:08:31 kilobyte: what counts for me is that i actually dont mind brogue using ascii, while i just cant play crawl in ascii mode 18:08:32 evilmike: I think I got Pender to provide a "no visual fx" toggle. 18:08:37 kilobyte: interesting. I wonder why it's so unused 18:08:57 Eronarn: when someone goes through 7359357393587 places that pass colours as an 8 bit number 18:09:32 kilobyte: surely that is largely find and replaceable 18:09:56 Eronarn: also, using more than 16 colours for the defaults would be broken: you can't tell apart monsters that differ too little 18:10:11 Eronarn: "Take part in the 2012 survey: [link]" 18:10:32 I agree that Brogue has way too much eyecandy but the underlying game is really good. 18:10:35 although, there are good uses: having past messages fade out would actually make clear_messages=false usable 18:10:38 kilobyte: yes, it should be something like initially using the new colors for elemental stuff or other custom colors 18:10:56 just for some visual niceness 18:11:02 And I learned that 16 colours is not enough but 256 is too many. Should perhaps strive for 32. 18:11:16 stuff like color ranges for trees and walls might be nice 18:11:38 also, i like eye candy :) 18:11:41 eye candy is nice 18:11:45 dpeg: play it! thou8gh it is a hugely long game. 18:11:55 due: no time! Gotta teach Go to my children. 18:12:08 i think having nice stuff to look at can be a big part of an enjoyable game 18:12:12 :) 18:12:22 also, Go is way too exhausting. chess too. :/ 18:12:39 those games feel way too much like work to me 18:13:27 hah 18:13:30 slacker :P 18:13:36 twilight struggle is hugely complicated and took me 4 hours to play last time 18:13:41 /that/ is exhausting 18:13:54 crusader kings II is out 18:14:07 which is going to make me play it at some point 18:14:14 4 hours is pretty short for board games ;) 18:14:33 Zannick: meh, not for me 18:14:41 i lose the capacity to function after about two hours 18:14:53 Zannick: not everyone is a student anymore :) But I sort of agree. 18:15:06 *i'm* not a student anymore! :) 18:15:57 i haven't actually played many games that go beyond 4 hours in awhile 18:16:02 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:08 many aren't that great 18:16:29 an 80 hour game usually has about an hour's worth of ideas 18:16:38 board games * 18:16:43 i played games for about 7 hours in a row recently 18:16:54 luckily, none took more than an hour 18:16:57 i was so exhausted 18:17:09 get more practise, clearly :) 18:17:59 MarvinPA: did you get my mail, btw? 18:20:17 03galehar * r75e0b1b30fcd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc mon-util.h mutation.cc spl-goditem.cc): Mimics revealed by detection lurk instead of wandering. 18:20:50 nice. 18:22:39 only 95 of all Crawl wins in online history (out of 6546) lasted less than 4 hours. And you need 100 times that for the first win typically. 18:23:06 few commercial games take more than 20-40 hours total 18:23:17 those are single player games 18:23:24 also, you can pause them 18:23:25 so is Crawl 18:23:33 im talking about crawl 18:23:57 games with other people that last over 4 hours are crazy. people get cranky near the end. 18:24:30 although my attention span may be partly to blame for my dislike of long games, i cringe when a movie i want to watch lasts longer than 2h. 18:24:44 alefury: I suspect you have bad company while playing games. Hint: it should be fun :) 18:24:53 it is, but i like variety 18:24:55 * kilobyte remembers his Doom days. 4 hours is a warm-up :p 18:25:10 Doomsdays! 18:25:31 oh, cool game: linq (needs >=5 players) 18:25:50 alefury: completely fine if you like short bursts more than long sessions. Try Race For The Galaxy, if you don't know it yet. 18:26:06 awesome decisions/minute ration 18:26:08 -n 18:26:12 race sounds good 18:26:16 when my brother visits, we tend to replay old stuff. Unless his wife comes as well, in which case there's yakking after half an hour... 18:27:09 alefury: basic game plays in <30 minutes, big game (three expansions ~45 minutes with experienced players). Do *not 18:27:22 * start with anything but the base game, it'll keep you busy for a while. 18:27:54 i prefer to play with no more than the base and first expansion 18:27:57 well, i would actually have to buy it unless someone has it. which i probably wont do. ill ask around. 18:28:02 the second expansion adds awful things i don't like 18:28:13 is there a german name? 18:29:07 alefury: yes but I don't know it 18:29:37 you can test it here, btw: http://keldon.net/rftg/ 18:30:20 cool, will do 18:30:26 dpeg: I have that! I haven't had a chance to play it with anyone yet though 18:30:30 dpeg: I am in love with Jaipur currently. 18:31:17 board games are one flaw that makes them useless: you need actual people at your place to play with 18:31:23 due: rtfg scales reasonably well (2-4 with base). Some expansion has solitary play but I never tried that. 18:31:33 kilobyte: not in this age 18:31:39 dpeg: I have Dominion: Intrigue too. 18:32:52 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:33:26 kilobyte: play with friends or colleagues? 18:35:32 is there anything that can be done for much stronger player ghosts in webtiles? I threw my arsenal at one, and didn't scratch it 18:35:42 no one ever has the time for a long visit (even if the person in question can sit online for tens of hours in a row) 18:35:45 walk away 18:35:55 ah 18:36:18 is there something that makes webtiles ghost stronger...? 18:36:25 kilobyte: there probably is some friend or colleague who regularly meets with people to play games. just ask around. 18:36:26 I assume not, but if there's actually a difference, that sounds serious 18:37:25 alefury: that'd require... social interaction 18:37:34 evilmike, I'm only xl 10... either they were higher level or just really high resistances 18:37:46 ah, just a fact of playing online then :) 18:38:01 social interaction was recently forced upon me, its really not that bad 18:38:32 one of the more fun (and more dangerous) parts of playing crawl online is the ghosts. Ask in ##crawl how to look up player ghost logs if you are ever in trouble 18:39:09 Felyza: you never have to kill a specific monster (unless you want a full win, then Geryon and the Royal Jelly) 18:39:25 you mean just geryon, right 18:39:31 jiyva, blah blah blah 18:39:38 i think you can banish trj now? 18:39:43 not sure though 18:39:47 evilmike: looking up ghosts shouldn't be necessary anymore 18:39:51 you can also corrupt or shatter or LRD to the slimy rune 18:39:55 kilobyte: I still do it for spell lists 18:40:01 and pacifying geryon gives you the horn nowadays 18:40:11 this ghost just eats all my minions and tries to eat me, keeping me from the next level of orc mines. I'm sure if I work at it, I might sneak past 18:40:17 alefury: you can, in which case you need to kill it in the Abyss 18:40:27 evilmike: this indicates that spell list should be given in the ghost's description 18:40:35 dpeg: I agree with that 18:40:44 can something be done about killing geryon over lava or water? he doesnt fly anmore, but he is really a lot better with flying. 18:40:44 that, or randomised 18:40:50 elliptic: pacifying is sort of a kill. You're right about shatter, though (and Jiyva). 18:40:54 couldnt he blow the horn with his last breath? 18:41:30 why would he? 18:41:37 release the armies of hell against you or something? 18:41:58 i dont really know the mythology behind him 18:42:00 the horn could just refuse to be confined like that (lava, deep water), shoot up again and land on a random square 18:42:06 as far as im concerned hes just some evil demon 18:42:56 the horn is kind of iffy... Why would it summon beasts when played by Geryon but not you (unless you're not in the Vestibule). 18:43:18 nothing wrong with making it summon beasts in the vestibule 18:43:46 also, just remove it and unlock hells when geryon dies? 18:43:51 alefury: yes, could be done 18:44:15 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:44:19 a lot more could be done with the horn (for story-telling), but currently, it's a bit lukewarm 18:44:37 please no quests, oh god, no! 18:45:04 the horn floats toward you, the victor! 18:45:21 ...wait, the horn only has to do with the dnd version 18:45:24 ewww 18:45:27 Zannick: what if your inventory is full? 18:45:47 alefury: +"...but your inventory is full." 18:46:00 so it still falls into lava... 18:46:16 if you're floating over lava? 18:46:17 of course his actual myth implies hellyaks 18:46:20 yes 18:46:26 hm, yeah. 18:46:35 oh 18:46:44 the horn hardens the lava where it lands? 18:46:55 that would be neat 18:46:55 that's so abusable, never mind 18:47:11 maybe only once 18:47:16 maybe only once, yeah 18:47:27 also, if you kill him in the Abyss, the Abyss can shift before you can possibly pick up the horn 18:47:28 if you try to abuse it, you deserve what you get, and probably blew it before 18:48:11 alefury: who said quest? I meant flavour. 18:48:38 ah! "so much more" sounded like more. 18:48:41 what about just making the hells open when geryon dies, but he still drops the horn 18:48:56 and then the horn can always summon beasts or do something else exciting or whatever 18:48:57 the horn would still be useful for troves, at least 18:49:00 -!- heteroy has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.26/20120128224517]] 18:49:02 yes 18:49:04 that would be him blowing the horn with his last breath basically 18:49:13 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:15 oh, horn troves are great, yes. 18:49:27 alefury: hell yeah 18:49:28 the important thing is making it so that the player isn't reliant on a specific item to get 4 runes 18:50:18 a weird flavor thing: geryon summons beasts. which means he is blowing the horn *all the time*. yet the gates of hell only open when you blow it. 18:50:25 I think players generally like unique items like cerebov's sword or geryon's horn even if they aren't really good for anything 18:50:40 so no need to remove the item 18:50:52 i thought it was "geryon winds the horn" to make a beast 18:51:21 i somehow manage to not read messages most of the time. a bad habit, i know. 18:51:24 btw, Brogue has awesome egos on weapons on armours, we should shamelessly steal from that 18:51:48 dpeg: could you describe any? 18:51:54 brogue has awesome items in general, but i dont think crawl can steal that :( 18:52:16 throwable potions actually work incredibly well in it 18:52:16 yeah, brogue's items are neato, but i dunno how well they'd transfer over to crawl 18:52:25 not well probably 18:52:59 maybe detect curse could be adapted to work like brogue's potion of detect magic 18:53:05 I hope these throwable potions are better than adom's throwable potions, since those are awful 18:53:14 with fewer id scrolls generated to compensate 18:54:01 elliptic: you can throw bad potions to make gas clouds or similar things. theyre pretty rare, though. 18:54:48 basically they do what wands do in crawl, minus recharging. 18:55:32 New branch created: 0.10 (118 commits) 18:55:44 gasp? 18:55:44 ugh I just pushed something to 0.10 instead of stone_soup-0.10, I'm good at this 18:55:50 hahahaha 18:55:55 just a minor fuckup 18:56:10 haha 18:56:43 kilobyte: sure. Transference on armour: shares some incoming damage with neighbours. Axes attack all neighbours at once (no ego). Weapon ego: slowing. Weapon ego: create short-lived "spectral ally" (of the monster type you attacked). 18:56:45 evilmike: git push gs :0.10 18:57:08 evilmike: ("gs" is probably "origin" for you) 18:57:11 I am vaguely reminded of shiren 18:57:18 yeah 18:57:25 sorry about that :P 18:57:31 actually moreso the loathsome shiren 3 game 18:58:05 it did have neat things like hammer of destroy traps/items 18:58:06 dpeg: yeah i did (get your mail, that is), if it's okay i might with questions as the patch progresses? 18:58:09 elliptic: re potions in brogue, in many ways they're more like grenades than potions. most potions are bad to drink, really 18:58:10 er 18:58:14 might respond with questions* 18:58:39 hm, a more serious version of what i just wrote about changing detect curse: in brogue potions of detect magic tell you whether items in your inventory and on the current level are unenchanted, beneficial, or bad. detect curse in crawl sucks balls, while detect magic in brogue is actually quite interesting. so why not change detect curse? compensate by generating fewer id scrolls. there are... 18:58:41 ...usually too many in the late game, and in the early game many are used to id potions, which would be done with detect curse after the change. 18:58:56 troves 18:59:19 definitely agree with the points you mentioned, i think a couple of them are already addressed even in the proof-of-concept patch which is cool 18:59:27 I'd much rather change detect curse by removing it 18:59:52 MarvinPA: sure. Anything about gods, old and new, you can contact me. You can also contact me on anything else, just no promises then. 18:59:57 I don't think that sort of effect is good at all, since it rewards scummy behavior (dragging items around so that one scroll can detect lots of curses) 19:00:19 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00:27 but i really like having 20 scrolls i don't care about when items are destroyed! ;P 19:00:42 elliptic: yes, Brogue gets away with many things we couldn't even attempt 19:00:42 if you also mean making detect curse single-target then I guess it could be a little better 19:00:42 can't you just be fine with 20 potions of water instead 19:00:48 detect curse is practcially just used as a way of padding out scroll generation :P 19:00:56 elliptic: +1 19:01:03 zannick: I hope you know it doesn't work that way? 19:01:10 elliptic: yes, i know :P 19:01:15 I mean, +1 to removing 19:01:16 or just scrap ?DC and be done with it 19:01:18 good, just making sure :) 19:01:25 i'm all for scrapping ?dc too, yeah 19:01:38 scrapping it is slightly less than trivial, since you'd want to adjust other scroll weights accordingly 19:01:50 like, I wouldn't want scrolls of blinking to become more common just because detect curse is removed 19:01:53 give its weight to random uselessness 19:01:57 let's? Or should we discuss it more than for 30 seconds? 19:02:02 you could add in a null weight 19:02:10 wherein instead of generating ?dc, you generate nothing 19:02:20 kilobyte: I guess this is not contentious. 19:02:26 I wish random uselessness had more random not entirely uselessness 19:02:40 scrapping ?dc has come up before, it's not a very controversial idea 19:02:42 the only thing i use ?dc for is elf loot on chars that might want it 19:02:51 it's been talked about on Tavern too 19:02:51 possibly orc loot 19:03:14 and its really a case of the described scummy behaviour 19:03:42 removing ?dc with no compensation with other scrolls would make early game a bit harder, of course 19:03:53 evilmike: thanks for survey line 19:04:16 http://pastebin.com/hes4MaXP what do you think of these numbers? to fast in the beginning, to slow at the end? 19:04:18 so we can compensate with more immolation and curse weapon 19:04:35 immolation is useful! 19:04:47 a bit more fog and immolation would be nice 19:05:02 possibly even some fear 19:05:08 like, currently you usually read-ID detect curse well before you know you have remove curse for sure 19:05:19 which lets you try on a few items with no fear 19:05:29 it also usually doesnt id 19:05:37 no wait, thats rc 19:07:06 ldierk: I looked at it, but cannot judge. 19:07:23 ldierk: If you want to be cool, Vehumets only offers after kills (flavour only). 19:08:15 hm should not be too hard. 19:08:23 that should end up happening anyway since kills are the only way to gain piety, i think? 19:08:27 yes 19:08:32 using gifts^2 might be a bit harsh 19:08:36 ha. so im cool :) 19:08:53 although it would neatly prevent scumming for gifts 19:09:11 MarvinPA: ah, good 19:10:22 there is precedent for allowing scumming for more spells... 19:10:34 books do generate in abyss, pan and zigs, after all 19:10:52 alefury: so does any other loot 19:11:13 exactly. so why should it be forbidden for vehumet gifts? it also works for oka and sif gifts. 19:11:34 just seems a little weird to me to start preventing abyss scumming with vehumet of all things 19:11:56 alefury: the only items that do not generate are 1. fixedarts in Pan/Abyss (but not Zigs), 2. most potions in Zigs 19:12:15 alefury: current vehumet does a good job of not being scummable 19:12:19 well just because other gods do it badly doesn't mean this new proposal should do too :P 19:12:19 I like this :P 19:12:20 alefury: O and S gifts should *not* be the role models 19:12:54 also, if you're done with everything but Pan, you don't really need new spells 19:12:55 i think limiting it somehow would be good, to not guarantee you get every single destructive spell in a single game 19:13:02 i agree, i just think this is the wrong place to start. a concerted effort to remove scummable stuff would be nice. 19:13:35 Listening in this channel, I came to the conclusion that axing the Abyss would be the correct solution ;) 19:13:41 The idea with the V proposal is to make gifting more interesting: faster gifts, more decisions (since you don't get the book to keep), nothing more. 19:14:42 ldierk: or rather, the question is whether scumming is really of an advantage 19:14:58 punishment of scumming being scumming 19:15:07 if you have rmut, it is. but its boring, so i dont do it. 19:15:13 I have hardly the patience to finsh a 3rune game ... 19:15:46 i don't think it's a problem for veh to stop gifting you spells by the time you're getting the last few runes, yeah 19:16:03 removing ration generation from the abyss would help a little bit. removing all food might be a little too harsh. 19:16:14 by that point presumably he's happy enough with the level of carnage you're causing :P 19:16:52 What do you think if Vehumet has a random list (once per game) of spells he'll give? 19:16:52 well one solution would be, as someone proposed earlier, to generate a list of X spells at the beginning that will be gifted ... 19:16:56 ldierk: like, Okawaru tends to be useless after several runes: once you get basic gear, you'd need to scum really long for an improvement 19:17:48 dpeg: yeah, elliptic suggested earlier to just make it a finite number too 19:17:58 that seems like it might be a simpler way of doing it 19:18:04 dpeg: i think i would prefer slower gifts, gifts weighted by skill investment. 19:18:04 I just think vehumet gives plenty of passive boosts already... no need for him to keep offering spells passively for a long time too 19:18:06 that might be a bit frustrating though.. 19:18:20 i mean gifts slowing down over time, not slower gifts 19:18:22 ldierk: you do find books over the course of a game 19:18:33 @dpeg: point taken 19:18:43 people don't abandon vehumet after they get the book gifts currently, so that's not a worry 19:18:45 the interesting part is early on 19:19:14 when you have no/few books and everything little spell V utters might be an option 19:19:21 i think being pretty much guaranteed some good spells of the schools you are focused on, with some opportunities for branching, would be nice 19:19:25 proposal: he offers exactly 27 spells each game 19:19:46 note that this is also what vehumet currently does 19:20:05 gifting level 1 spells from * is quite strong. espacially for non-magic backgrounds 19:20:31 -!- rejuxst1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:35 especially (I never get that word right w/o googling ) 19:21:00 kiku 19:21:32 27 spells sounds good to me, should be plenty of room for lots of variety and a range of levels 19:21:43 HangedMan: point taken, again 19:21:48 MarvinPA: yes 19:22:00 27 sound a lot to me. How many destructive spells are there? 19:22:16 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:22:38 I remember noting something weird about spells when I was experimenting with the results of randbook designations 19:22:44 ...something 19:23:05 maybe it was "level 7 and above is a really sparse range" 19:23:07 * due eats the deep egg. 19:23:22 HangedMan: the des syntax for randart books? 19:23:36 8... this lighting thingy and ... ? 19:24:21 It would make gifting straight forward: Generate a list, and gift it one by one. 19:25:29 yes, that syntax 19:25:44 i count 40ish destructive spells 19:26:05 than 27 sounds quite reasonably 19:26:37 hm, i think a pregenerated list is a bad idea 19:26:40 it does mean that the balance of vehumet can change with every new destructive spell though 19:26:50 bear in mind that's split over 4 elements (plus a few misc things) 19:27:12 especially with no repeat gifting 19:27:23 and no overarching theme 19:27:30 and most players won't want more than 2 elements, so 27 is probably quite a few but maybe an okay starting point anyway? 19:27:49 I reaaaly have to go to sleep now. If you come to a conclusion, post it on Mantis or wherever. Otherwise I'll post something when I have the saving done. 19:27:59 imo add some rarer spells that veh gifts but don't show up in unrand books 19:28:07 okay, g'night 19:28:10 changing the spell source is easy as the frameworks, done. 19:28:12 gnight 19:28:22 -!- ldierk has quit [Quit: OUCH!!!] 19:28:54 eronarn: you mean the spells in annihilations? :P 19:29:11 afaik those show up in an unrand book 19:29:26 what do you mean by unrand book anyway 19:29:45 randbooks, presumably? :P 19:29:49 elliptic: i mean spells that only show up in random books 19:29:58 those dont exist? 19:29:58 oh i see 19:29:59 randbooks aren't artefacts, unrands are artefacts :P 19:30:05 er 19:30:09 you know what I mean 19:30:10 alefury: right, i'm saying that we should make some and have veh gift them 19:30:22 not truly unique to veh, but more common with him 19:31:54 eronarn: could do that, but it requires making new spells (not that easy) for less than normal gain (smaller proportion of players will get to use them) 19:32:58 i think it could be neat though. really encourage switching elements or branching out early. 19:33:00 elliptic: even just palette swaps of existing ones would be useful for this purpose 19:33:15 it could be simple stuff with slightly improved stats relative to their level 19:33:29 there may also be some monster effects suitable, like converting acid spit to a spell 19:33:33 throw firecicle 19:33:39 ice elemental fireball, smite targeted flamestrike, stuff like that 19:33:53 sticky air 19:34:07 sticky earth 19:34:22 mini versions of very high level spells as level 6-7 spells 19:34:36 throw stalagmite 19:34:36 lehudib's gaseous spear 19:35:34 i can make some simple ones, but would need help with the descriptions. 19:35:43 I think that such spells should be vehumet-only, not vehumet-and-randart-only 19:35:59 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:36:05 but sounds fun 19:36:06 why not randart? most reasons to add them to veh also apply to generally very rare spells. 19:36:14 i love the way ido pronounces "david ploog" in this interview 19:36:17 oh, dpeg left :( 19:36:28 wheres the interview btw? 19:36:33 alefury: they seem too goofy for general usage :P 19:36:41 i don't think they should be made goofy 19:36:44 http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/ 19:36:47 i agree with eronarn 19:37:01 i think they should feel just like other spells, but just be rarer ones you won't run into often except for veh 19:37:01 oh, its rlr. i dont usually listen to that, it takes too long :( 19:37:34 sticky earth ftw 19:37:42 i'm a few episodes behind on it, some of them are really good though 19:37:46 replacement for ozo's doing fire damage, and maybe burning your scrolls (but not potions): Heat Wave 19:37:56 also I feel like really rare spells like that will just confuse players when they stumble across them... "is stone arrow or throw stalagmite better?" 19:38:16 elliptic: could be dealt with in the description. 19:38:29 it depends on how many of them you are considering, I guess 19:38:30 i think it's okay if players get confused as long as they're blowing stuff up 19:38:33 single extra line common to all of them. 19:38:46 if vehumet-specific, you could have more; if not, then I'd say one per element or so 19:39:00 i was thinking about 2 19:39:14 i think 5-6 is a good starting point for one version, and if people hate them, they can always be used as monster spells or rods or... 19:40:28 fr rod of flower bouquets 19:42:48 something like... heat wave (fire ozo's), acid splash (conj/pois), metal shard explosion thing (earth fireball), airstrike-clone in fire or earth, icy spear 19:43:24 metal shard explosion thing sounds rather too close to LRD 19:43:39 somehow this sounds more like a way to make rods more interesting 19:43:41 and I don't know what icy spear is 19:44:00 elliptic: with fireball style targeting i think it would be quite different (can use it in open areas, for instance) 19:44:07 icy spear = ice version of iron shot or lcs 19:44:46 also where are the non-elemental randspells in this 19:44:49 HangedMan: rods need to be more interesting generally :P 19:45:05 HangedMan: could probably have a conj/necro one also 19:45:09 bolt of inacc pure conj? :D 19:45:11 was just about to say 19:46:52 maybe a bolt of bouncing 19:47:10 i can make a wiki page for this tomorrow, and i can code easy spells. 19:47:41 bolt of gain more distance when it hits things instead of less 19:47:53 bolt of fireball 19:48:09 good night 19:48:18 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.1/20120208060813]] 19:48:19 bolt of gain more distance when it hits things instead of less 19:48:22 acid chain lightning, maybe? 19:48:26 electrical spells should clearly do this 19:48:36 (don't know if this is what acid splash is but it should be) 19:48:49 conjurations/translocations: blink/swap lightning 19:48:50 bolt of bolts 19:49:09 I like that Avalanche idea 19:49:11 make the disc of storms effect a rod spell 19:49:51 none of this is doing anything about extreme vehumet power creep, btw :P 19:50:03 elliptic: an acid splatter spell would be cool, yeah. i was thinking of just a lower damage, accurate acid damage attack 19:50:06 but it's fun to idea engineer 19:50:10 like what oozes spit 19:50:20 acid blobs 19:50:34 @??acid blob 19:50:35 acid blob (11J) | Speed: 12 | HD: 18 | Health: 79-121 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Damage: 4208(acid:7d3) | Flags: sense invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 3363 | Sp: acid splash (3d7+7d5). 19:50:36 eronarn: better for these unique spells to be a bit higher level IMO, so that they require more investment 19:50:42 @??acid blob hd:9 19:50:42 acid blob (11J) | Speed: 12 | HD: 9 | Health: 33-66 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Damage: 4208(acid:7d3) | Flags: sense invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 836 | Sp: acid splash (3d7+7d5). 19:50:43 Ice/Conj 9, a shotgun-targetted ~90 degree LOS range cloudless Icestorm 19:50:53 kilobyte: cone of cold! 19:51:15 wasn't there something about how the tracers or bolts or how zapping works in general that makes shotgun spells difficult 19:51:28 Rolling Boulder 19:51:38 cast a boulder that rolls in a given direction 19:51:46 orbs of destruction L9 pure conj, three per cast 19:51:48 or "Inferno": Fire 9, immolation on steroids 19:51:50 a la boulder beetles 19:52:22 elliptic: i think that's reasonable. maybe L5+ 19:52:27 since 1-4 are pretty well covered 19:52:34 HangedMan: yeah, wasn't doable with beams but hitfuncs can do it well 19:52:43 oh, cool 19:52:52 5-8 IMO, we don't really want competition at the very top 19:52:58 Eronarn: power 3 Orb card 19:53:17 kilobyte: yes, so we know it works :) 19:53:34 Eronarn: totally overpowered in some edge cases, acceptable usually 19:53:47 kilobyte: this reminds me, do you know whether tornado moves orbs of destruction? 19:54:24 no idea 19:54:29 not sure whether it should or whether it currently does, but I think it did at some point in the past 19:54:57 because I tried to kill ignacio with the combination of the two and took a ton of self-damage from the orbs 19:55:11 (and then tornado+airstrike killed him) 19:55:33 oh right, veh gives summ 19:55:35 is that changing or something? 19:55:42 yes, that is going away 19:55:43 orbs missing and hitting the caster = me likes 19:56:07 awesome 19:56:12 now pact god can have summ all to himself 20:05:49 another spell idea: three fireballs, 10 aut between each. You don't get to re-target, translocations remove the effect. 20:06:03 old Orb of Electricity 20:06:21 -!- jeanjacques_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:06:22 bolt of chaos (Xom approves) 20:07:24 cloud breath spell like monsters have, for seething chaos 20:07:26 any bolt, done in a circle like Orb card 3 20:08:33 Finger of Death would probably be too hexy 20:08:36 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:09:39 ooh, Primal Wave 20:10:52 bolt of inacc! 20:11:22 no making bolt of inacc a castable spell unless you do the hard work of balancing it somehow first :P 20:11:31 ...where is this all coming from 20:11:36 right :p 20:11:49 reading removed spells or something from 4.1 or something 20:11:57 HangedMan: ideas for Vehumet only gimmicks 20:12:07 I know what it's pointed towards 20:12:12 old spells have the benefit of already existing 20:12:17 I was wondering where the sudden wave of ideas came from 20:12:40 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:50 -!- greatzebu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:25:10 -!- jeanjacques_ is now known as jeanjacques 20:27:55 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:51:19 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:40 -!- greatzebu__ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58:57 -!- greatzebu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:35 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.1/20120208060813]] 21:13:22 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:24:19 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:47 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:39:24 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:39:24 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 21:42:22 03evilmike 07stone_soup-0.10 * r29366a0ea6de 10/crawl-ref/source/ (ng-input.cc startup.cc): Mention the 2012 survey on the new game screen. 21:58:50 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:06:09 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 22:16:20 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:27:37 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 22:31:19 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:55:33 3 22:55:41 Gained rPois mutation after and in addition to rPois from slimy green scales Ds mutation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5312) by gomer 23:19:18 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:20:54 -!- varmin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:21 -!- Napkin has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:23:21 -!- greensnark has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:23:21 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:23:21 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:17 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 23:26:43 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:30 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:43 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 23:33:24 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 23:33:30 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 23:41:04 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 23:52:56 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]