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01:10:16 <st_> if I got the hell end map changes done would they get into 0.10? would be fun with all the allruning people will be doing
01:10:34 <st_> I've no idea when the release is supposed to be
01:12:27 <BlastHardcheese> I've heard rumors it's supposed to be end of the month
01:21:06 <elliptic> 0.10 is supposed to be released within a couple of weeks at latest, and it is only getting bugfixes at this point so no
01:22:30 <st_> bug report: hell ends too easy
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01:30:13 <st_> by the way I was thinking for Tar, soul eaters having a % of HP drain per turn mechanic
01:30:21 <st_> like a delayed torment but doesn't get weaker
01:30:47 <st_> and if there are many of them it would get pretty nasty
01:36:15 <Cheibriados> Pathing bug. Enemies can't find a way to me. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5281) by Letchik
01:37:57 <st_> I mean % of max HP
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01:47:00 <kilobyte> st_: no need to tie vault development to the release schedule: all cool kids play trunk anyway
01:47:37 <kilobyte> and more seriously, preferably all changes should happen at the beginning of development cycle
01:49:33 <kilobyte> even vaults: if you put a hellfirer behind tormenters, you'll see people complain about an excessive number of deaths
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01:53:23 <st_> kilobyte: you're right about the trunk thing, but I was mainly thinking of the tourney
01:53:50 <st_> no worries though
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02:22:28 <evilmike> how would the soul eater mechanic work? Smite targeted spell?
02:22:31 <evilmike> or some melee thing?
02:24:00 <evilmike> some sort of smite/gaze thing would be interesting, especially if it's really weak when one enemy is doing it, but dangerous when you're up against a "swarm"
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02:39:59 <st_> evilmike: if it's in vision then it damages you each turn, was what I was thinking
02:45:44 <st_> not sure if it would affect undead guys, if we consider them to have souls left to eat
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03:12:40 <evilmike> undead should probably be immune to that
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04:24:15 <phyphor> evilmike: is gaze and smite different now (don't gaxes work through glass, or am I misremembering)?
04:26:56 <evilmike> phyphor: eyeballs at least seem to be able to attack through glass
04:29:35 <phyphor> That's what I thought - just the idea of a swarm of soul eaters on the other side of glass (when there's currently no way for a player to react) would be bad
04:30:25 <phyphor> But hten I figure it would be good to work out what requires sight, wat requires a physical line of connection and what requires space enough to walk through (glass, trees/grates, open space)
04:31:52 <phyphor> For example, does blink let you move in the blink of an eye (so requires you to be able to have walked there, just happens instantly), or does it work on some other magical principle
04:33:09 <phyphor> But then I also think the smite changes were an over-raction to MuCKs ability to be stupid
04:33:41 <alefury> phyphor: currently, glass blocks magic just like a regular wall would
04:34:28 <alefury> for example you could never airstrike enemies you detect via ash or that card
04:34:38 <phyphor> Yes, but I believe that some things could be different
04:34:53 <alefury> gazes working through glass is fine imo
04:35:12 <evilmike> I don't think there are any vaults left where monsters attack you through glass, with you being unable to fight back. And I dont think new ones that do that should be added, as long as targeting works the way it does
04:35:35 <evilmike> there's one where eyes can attack through glass, but you're able to walk around the glass
04:35:49 <alefury> i think theres a wizlab that did that, and it was good, and i didnt see it changed
04:36:00 <alefury> eyeball, glass, mutagenic fog :)
04:36:17 <alefury> with a door in the glass, and loot behind the glass
04:36:18 <due> mmm mutagenic fog <3
04:36:50 <alefury> not sure it was a wizlab, but i dont know what else it would be. some rather late game portal vault
04:37:11 <due> cigotuvi's?
04:37:22 <alefury> i dont think so
04:38:27 <alefury> i dont think this needs changing anyway, i think it would actually be better with glass than grates
04:38:27 <alefury> also maybe it got changed and i missed it :/
04:39:13 <alefury> ah, its cigotuvi's
04:39:26 <alefury> i must have missed that room on some of my visits
04:40:49 <evilmike> there arent any wizlabs that were broken by the glass changes
04:41:11 <evilmike> there might be one or two vaults left which are still broken though. I've probably changed something close to 30, by this point
04:42:44 <alefury> eyeballs work through glass, so its not broken, yes. and i like that you cant kill the eyeball without opening the door
04:43:02 <MarvinPA> you can just dig behind it in the cigotuvi vault i'm pretty sure
04:43:38 <alefury> its made of stone, so needs at least lrd
04:43:51 <alefury> ive never seen the tukima, eringyia and wucad mu wizlabs. this makes me sad. :(
04:44:01 <alefury> best portal vaults
04:44:05 <alefury> <3 wizlabs
04:44:11 <MarvinPA> those three aren't very exciting
04:44:24 <alefury> also missing iskenderun
04:45:10 <MarvinPA> that one is very exciting!
04:45:52 <alefury> #    layout: weird fortress tower thing with strange corners
04:45:54 <alefury> haha
04:46:38 <alefury> oh god, it has fog machines
04:47:13 <alefury> looks awesome in the .des file, im looking forward to seeing this one ingame
04:47:21 <due> fog machines <3
04:47:36 <due> alefury: thank you :D
04:47:49 <due> alefury: cigotuvi's wasn't mine, but most of the others were
04:49:04 <alefury> i like how they also look really good in tiles
04:51:16 <alefury> especially the hellbinder one
04:51:47 <alefury> must have been hard to get that to work properly
04:57:25 <evilmike> defining floor tiles is pretty hard, and the hellbinder wizlab has a ton of that
04:58:09 <evilmike> maybe hard is the wrong word. Its a bit awkward though, especially if you want to place anything on that part of the floor
05:04:23 <kilobyte> somehow I get Iskenderun like 50% of the time
05:04:32 <kilobyte> and Clouds 40%
05:06:43 <Napkin> hey kilobyte - do you know an estimate of when the 0.10 release will come?
05:07:01 <Napkin> i'm really burried by work at the moment
05:08:03 <kilobyte> no real hurry... I'd personally prefer something in a week or so, but let's declare elliptic's Feb 15 as an absolute cut-off
05:08:17 <Napkin> uh, ok
05:08:27 <Napkin> well, lots of things to change on CDO
05:08:43 <kilobyte> ??tournament
05:08:43 <Napkin> this time there isn't even a pre-release
05:08:44 <Henzell> tournament[1/3]: The 0.10 tournament will probably be Feb 25-Mar 12. Rules coming soon.
05:09:03 <kilobyte> ie, you'd prefer something earlier for more time?
05:09:05 <Napkin> dgl & builds are 0.11a already
05:09:22 <Napkin> nono, 15th is good
05:09:51 <Napkin> i should have webtiles on 0.10 by then
05:09:52 <kilobyte> I mean, I would want something earlier, there are always unforeseen problems of some sort
05:09:55 <kilobyte> ok
05:10:12 <Napkin> the release itself will be less stressy then
05:10:54 <kilobyte> I guess it's edlothiol's call, mostly... not sure which one of you does most of new DGL effort
05:11:08 <kilobyte> (sadly I didn't even really look myself :( )
05:11:41 <Napkin> well, he's writing it and i need to adjust the installation to make it work
05:12:09 <Napkin> supposedly the saves can be shared now between dgl and webtiles?
05:12:33 <Napkin> so, i hope crawl will handle it properly, that a game is already running
05:13:38 <kilobyte> on Crawl's side, the compatibility should be 100% already
05:13:47 <Napkin> awesome
05:15:03 <kilobyte> I think there are still some regressions when using a webtiles binary when playing console, but all are minor
05:15:59 <kilobyte> tutorial will tell you to click on stuff in 5689724956875 places, a few descriptions do that as well and I'm not sure if display flashes delays were fixed
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05:35:30 <edlothiol> not sure if we should share binaries between webtiles/dgl for 0.10
05:35:52 <edlothiol> the main advantage (watching dgl from webtiles) isn't yet implemented in the server
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05:41:22 <kilobyte> can right-click exit menus in webtiles?
05:44:11 <edlothiol> no
05:44:32 <edlothiol> not yet, that is
05:48:13 <kilobyte> shouldn't even, probably... overriding right click in the browser is commonly hated
05:50:59 <CIA-52> 03kilobyte * rdde76948a465 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Don't claim you can right-click out of menus in webtiles.
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10:51:00 <CIA-52> 03galehar * r5d81417deefa 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Calculate skill cost based on experience instead of skill points.
10:51:10 <CIA-52> 03galehar * rbb2c21a60e4b 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Don't drain the XP pool when hit by draining.
10:52:49 <Eronarn> does draining actually do anything other than damage / level loss now
10:53:08 <alefury> i dont think so
10:53:29 <alefury> the xp pool has generally been empty for quite a while
10:53:45 <HangedMan> level loss, very important for ds
10:54:02 <galehar> well, it used to drain the couple of XP that were hanging in the pool, but not anymore
10:54:32 <galehar> the first commit is obviously not 0.10 material, but the second can be
10:59:54 <jeanjacques> galehar: so draining is a good thing now?
11:00:54 <galehar> the draining commit is just some code cleanup it doesn't change anything significant
11:01:08 <alefury> i think hes referring to the skill cost by xp commit
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11:01:14 <jeanjacques> i mean in the cheaper skill cost for not a big downside aspect
11:01:35 <galehar> no, the skill cost is unaffected by draining
11:02:00 <alefury> ah, so its "xp earned" or "xp pumped into skills", not "current exp"
11:02:05 <galehar> I keep a separate count for XP and total XP ever gained and used to train skills
11:02:24 <galehar> alefury: yeah, exactly
11:03:27 <galehar> it's something elliptic asked me a while ago. Crosstraining used to make cost raise faster and this wasn't good.
11:04:02 <jeanjacques> manuals are even better now. though you did tend to find most of them after reaching the maximum skill cost level.
11:04:36 <HangedMan> fr manual god
11:05:38 <alefury> that would be even more awful than old ash
11:06:13 <alefury> the one that boosted xp gain
11:06:30 <jeanjacques> do manuals still provide a random amount of xp decided on generation?
11:07:01 <galehar> jeanjacques: yes. In case you find one before reaching maximum cost, I think it's better that it's just a straight bonus and doesn't have any hidden side effect like making your other skills more expensive.
11:07:33 <galehar> jeanjacques: yes, manuals haven't been changed. They have a random amount of skill points.
11:08:02 <jeanjacques> more incentive for early book ?acq without magic skills
11:09:54 <galehar> have to go
11:09:56 <galehar> 'later
11:10:04 <alefury> bye
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14:17:40 <mrmist> Global Notice] - It's a happy birthday to our favourite gay staffer Gary today. In celebration do stop by and read http://announce.freenode.net/turing.html and remember to drop Gary a happy birthday message!
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15:11:44 <Henzell> akaean the Eclecticist (L26 MuWz) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 942 failed on turn 127589. (Tomb:2)
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17:42:18 <galehar> !tell kilobyte how about moving db and des from saves/ to cache/? Makes obvious what is generated and much nicer to have on a shared space (dropbox, usb key,...)
17:42:18 <Henzell> galehar: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
18:05:26 <rax> galehar: If you decide to move directories like that around, please make sure you warn server administrators ahead of time ;)
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18:20:39 <kilobyte> galehar: not a bad idea; rax is right too
18:20:40 <Henzell> kilobyte: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
18:21:06 <kilobyte> on servers, these directories get configured separately anyway
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18:33:28 <kilobyte> for the XP pool draining commit, I'd say it's a bugfix: clearing the pool distorts automatic training data, while having no effect otherwise
18:38:27 <CIA-52> 03MarvinPA 07stone_soup-0.10 * r7f8a05b84f54 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Changelog updates and wording tweaks
18:38:29 <CIA-52> 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r29d9d264240c 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Don't claim you can right-click out of menus in webtiles.
18:38:29 <CIA-52> 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.10 * r1f66fc960446 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Don't drain the XP pool when hit by draining.
18:38:29 <CIA-52> 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r07a91fedc3b7 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Id wands of enslavement on auto-re-anger.
18:38:30 <CIA-52> 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r6369ad0ea996 10/crawl-ref/source/ (invent.cc item_use.cc): Fix vamp weapons being unwieldable in ZotDef.
18:38:31 <CIA-52> 03dolorous 07stone_soup-0.10 * rc4706067aff8 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Generalize the bony plates check; anyone with level-3 tentacles has no arms.
18:38:32 <CIA-52> 03edlothiol 07stone_soup-0.10 * raf3dfcbbe1a6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Replace the fire mage title screen by the new version by Omndra and roctavian.
18:38:34 <CIA-52> 03evilmike 07stone_soup-0.10 * r7345d761d620 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/small.des: No secret doors in shiori_angband_town. (minmay)
18:38:35 <CIA-52> 03dolorous 07stone_soup-0.10 * rd3a9c5b942a9 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix tentacles reference for two-handed weapons with shields.
18:42:43 <kilobyte> (title screen is not a bugfix but 1. bears no risks of bugs, 2. improves look, 3. reduces the download by 60KB)
18:44:00 <HangedMan> heh
18:46:49 <BlastHardcheese> what if it stops you from starting the game
18:47:11 <HangedMan> being repulsed by the first image shown
18:47:16 <BlastHardcheese> oh wait that would be a feature since you would have to play console ;)
18:47:26 <kilobyte> yeah :)
18:50:20 <Eronarn> people play non-console? why
18:50:48 <HangedMan> icons
18:51:08 <HangedMan> arena mode with really large amounts of different combatants showing hp meters for each
18:51:16 <HangedMan> hellephant tile
18:51:37 <HangedMan> actually attracting more people to play the overall game
18:51:51 <Eronarn> more players, more problems
18:52:10 <HangedMan> if only it wasn't for those stupid players pointing out bugs
18:52:18 <HangedMan> then they wouldn't have to be fixed
18:54:44 <Eronarn> i started on my .11 list today
18:54:58 <HangedMan> what does it have, besides lava orcs
18:55:41 <Eronarn> glacier dwarves
18:56:13 <HangedMan> another rF- race?
18:57:24 <Eronarn> sure, whyn ot
18:57:53 <HangedMan> but another slow race should be first
18:58:40 <Eronarn> i think i'm going to make lorcs slow at low tension
19:02:17 <HangedMan> what, for reference, actually uses tension?
19:02:31 <HangedMan> xom does to a minor degree, singing sword, uh
19:04:41 <dtsund> Demonic guardian
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19:17:41 <Eronarn> 20:17 < minqmay> what
19:17:41 <Eronarn> 20:17 < minqmay> str does not give you hp
19:17:45 <Eronarn> have we considered changing this btw
19:17:55 <Eronarn> some other games do it and i find it works pretty well
19:18:12 <Eronarn> it also makes intuitive sense; if you are more muscley you have more of you that can get in the way of your organs being stabbed
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21:31:42 <Eronarn> confused boring beetles dig
21:31:50 <Eronarn> there's probably a vault that hould be based on this
21:32:29 <evilmike> it would be possible to make a permanently confused boring beetle, I'm not sure what it would accomplish though
21:34:18 <HangedMan> maybe just a really big meph cloud generator
21:34:35 <HangedMan> although there's the small chance the boring beetle could choke on fumes before this
21:34:43 <HangedMan> the player finds it, rather
21:36:30 <evilmike> clouds are unnecessary
21:37:32 <ZChris13> You just have to do a perm_enchant  I guess
21:39:03 <HangedMan> obviously I am traumatized from rwbarton and st and others hating perm_ench use
21:41:00 <ZChris13> why do they hate it?
21:41:17 <ZChris13> Does it do naughty things with children or something
21:42:53 <HangedMan> gimmickry, adding onto/defying already set monsters, adding to spoilerage, usually looking like the bad kind of silly, crutch to avoid decent composition, something along those lines
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23:26:03 <Eronarn> evilmike: 'intoxicated boring beetle', do ittt
23:26:48 <evilmike> I can't think of a way to actually use something like that
23:27:00 <evilmike> regular boring beetles already dig everywhere
23:27:32 <evilmike> maybe if the alistair wizlab ever gets made
23:28:00 <Eronarn> evilmike: they dig right at the player though
23:28:28 <evilmike> if they wake up without the player in view, it's pretty random
23:28:38 <evilmike> current boring beetle vaults already do this
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