00:03:18 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3216-ge6c29e3 (32) 00:04:45 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:09:51 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:18:49 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3216-ge6c29e3 00:20:19 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 00:20:37 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:28:45 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:29:44 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:39 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:31:39 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 01:06:57 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:48 i really want the constriction update on cdo 01:16:54 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [*.net *.split] 02:05:03 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:23 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:48:33 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:39 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:25 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:40:12 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 03:54:26 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:09 edlothiol: would it be okay to branch now? The downside is having to cherry-pick fixes. 04:04:14 wait, let me push one commit 04:07:40 cool 04:08:40 elliptic, MarvinPA, Eronarn: any plans for constriction grab and/or escape chances? 04:10:30 03edlothiol * r5daebb03af51 10/crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc menu.cc menu.h webserver/game_data/static/menu.js): Make the help menu work in webtiles again. 04:11:12 kilobyte: ready now ;) 04:15:41 branching is not anything final, too 04:15:44 great, thanks! 04:22:03 New branch created: stone_soup-0.10 (0 commits) 04:32:00 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:36 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:45 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 05:20:16 mmh monstrosities are still horrible with the new formula 05:21:17 for a high-end Zot monster, that's good 05:21:37 may be bad for Summon Horrible Things, though 05:23:04 well its mostly the chei effect 05:38:22 beh, can't constrict one, there's somehow a requirement to be bigger than whatever you try to constrict 05:38:30 as a cat owner, I say this is wrong :p 05:49:23 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:37 -!- Gilihad has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:51 Howdy, I was wondering if anyone is around who could fix my save? 06:23:57 On CAO trunk 06:24:18 Another game is already in progress using this save! Hit any key to exit... 06:24:24 Character name is Gilihad 06:30:18 |amethys1: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3618 06:31:22 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:00 Gilihad: we need rax or Napkin (or greensnark but he's gone), they can see why the game is stuck 06:34:06 ah, okay 06:34:20 I mean, I've been putting off work that I need done anyway, so I should probably do that 06:34:23 (and dgamelaunch really should notice this and terminate the game) 06:34:56 Napkin tends to react quickly whenever his name is mentioned here 06:34:57 Shouldn't it after a certain amount of time? 06:36:05 Napkin does? 06:36:33 unless dead busy, that is 06:36:43 or... sleeping? 06:39:00 13:38 in his timezone 06:39:29 (of course, the Hacker Standard Time has no hard offsets) 06:40:29 Gilihad the Grappler (L11 DrWn) (Lair:2) 06:40:29 indeed 06:47:31 what's up? 06:47:45 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:57 Howdy, I was wondering if anyone is around who could fix my save? [20:24] On CAO trunk [20:24] Another game is already in progress using this save! Hit any key to exit... [20:24] Character name is Gilihad 06:49:36 That is the haps 06:51:00 and I was wondering if you could fix it, Napkin 06:52:57 kilobyte: in mutation-data.h there is inverted logic in a comment 06:53:05 // third boolean = is mutation kept when shapechanged? 06:53:15 "kept" should be "suppressed" 06:54:04 also the suppression list seems like a load of bull 06:54:23 but thats a separate issue 06:55:29 Henzell> Gilihad the Grappler (L11 DrWn) (Lair:2) 06:55:42 when that message comes, the game should have ended 06:55:59 ah, okay 06:56:26 okay 06:56:28 thanks! 06:57:26 uh 06:57:27 hm 06:57:39 it duplicated some stuff 06:57:42 but that's okay! 06:58:00 nothing worth duplicating 07:14:56 -!- Gilihad has left ##crawl-dev 07:26:19 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:22 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 08:26:21 kilobyte: i think that esc changes should compare squared terms, to emphasize that going from cat to dog is less of an increase than ogre to dragon 08:26:41 (this is one thing D&D got right) 08:27:18 why? The absolute difference in height doesn't matter, it's relative what counts. 08:27:24 and relative is exactly the same 08:29:28 kilobyte: adding height also increases length and width, if you're scaling something. this means a larger proportional body mass, in addition to effects like longer limbs 08:30:21 sheer bulk is an advantage in grappling 08:30:52 if we go with body mass, it's length^3 08:31:24 by D&D's description of size categories, going 1 up means doubling the length/height 08:31:26 kilobyte: yes, but i feel like that would be too harsh 08:31:39 squared seems to be better than linear without being as harsh as cubed 08:32:00 so cat/dog (+1) means 1/8 the mass. Ogre/dragon (+1 here) means... 1/8 the mass. 08:33:16 kilobyte: due to the way grappling works in D&D, though, you're competing to get +20 above what your opponent gets to be an instawin 08:33:20 (more or less) 08:34:32 (also, increasing size increases stats inherently in D&D) 08:57:57 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:37 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:33 Global Notice] Hi all. We just blogged about SOPA/PIPA on http://blog.freenode.net/2012/01/on-sopapipa/ and suggest you join ##sopa if you are interested in these proposed bills or other discussion around this general topic. As always, have a nice day and thanks for flying freenode air! 10:41:59 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:09 Add the explicit list of crosstraining and magic penalized skills to help (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5234) by XuaXua 11:05:54 You kill your orc! 11:05:54 That felt strangely unrewarding. 11:05:54 Beogh forgives your inadvertent attack on an ally, just this once. 11:05:54 The fiery explosion engulfs your orc. 11:05:54 You kill your orc! 11:05:56 That felt strangely unrewarding. 11:05:59 Beogh forgives your inadvertent attack on an ally, just this once. 11:06:02 should print this at end of processing the scroll 11:08:19 Extraneous messages when reading scroll of immolation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5235) by Eronarn 11:10:21 -!- rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:52 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:06 -!- rejuxst has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:54:28 * SamB *really* thinks the user ought to be able to add stuff they see to the list of things that auto-explore is planning to pick up ... 11:55:27 * SamB wonders if this should be part of the stash-search interface ? 12:07:09 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:59 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:03 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:38:36 SamB: what do you propose? I have a hard time imagining an interface solution that would be simpler than just moving to the item and picking it up. of course adding it to autopickup would allow for delayed pickup while exploring, but thats only relevant to people who care a lot about turncount, right? 12:39:15 well, a key in the stash-search result list would be handy if there were a number of things you wanted to grab 12:39:56 true, that would be nice 12:40:32 I would probably have it also auto-advance to the next item, too 12:40:34 adding it to x or X is unnecessary imo, but for stash search there are situations where I too wished i could mark things for autopickup 12:45:27 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110929064733]] 12:45:54 one problem is that the stash search displays stacks, not individual items (doesn't it?) 12:46:31 also, I guess it would only work for items on the same level? 12:48:49 edlothiol: you can now press - to disable stacking 12:49:02 too bad, that setting doesn't stick 12:51:06 oh, cool 12:56:58 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 13:01:03 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:15 it *would* be nice if that stuck, yes 13:09:12 and yeah, I suspect that it would only really be practical to do this for items on the current level 13:25:42 BakaFlockaFlame the Grasshopper (L8 NaWr) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 942 failed on turn 7461. (D:7) 14:02:42 -!- cosmonaut has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:02 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:39 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:32:09 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:36 -!- rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:33 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:38 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:16 !lm BakaFlockaFlame type=crash -log 15:17:17 1. BakaFlockaFlame, XL8 NaWr, T:7461 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/BakaFlockaFlame/crash-BakaFlockaFlame-20120118-192541.txt 15:22:57 -!- Red_Bucket has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:01 Are there any fruit tree grove vaults? 15:24:21 some by blue_anna 15:24:47 What do chokos grow on? 15:25:15 I always imagined they grew on vines 15:28:08 Eating lots of chokos makes you mummify when you die. 15:28:12 We need spriggan mummies 15:29:06 And according to wikipedia, they grow on vines 15:40:36 Would something that has a chance to mutate resistences to something when damaged by it be a bad idea? More damage and higher tension give a better chance, and every time you adapt, you have a chance based on mutatedness to lose a previous resistence 15:42:41 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47:07 Red_Bucket: A race? 15:47:39 Not really sure whether it would work best as a race, an item, or a god. 15:47:46 Red_Bucket: you mean, Transdimensional Hellspider? 15:48:02 That's why I was being unspecific 15:50:04 kilobyte: But for the player. 15:55:21 As a race, it would probably be another human variant that is highly flexible but really unfocused which makes people avoid it. 15:55:52 Although it could potentially be a good transmuter because it fills in resistance gaps. 15:57:38 seems pretty abusable. Want to do Geh? Sit on Geh:1 for a while to scum rF, then continue. Want Coc? Scum for rC. 15:59:27 I guess it's not like lava orcs since temperature is sort of temporary while mutations are relatively permanent. 15:59:58 Maybe the mutations could fade over time in low tension. 16:08:05 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:13:23 Has anyone ever suggested scarabs? 16:22:39 -!- yogaFLAME has joined ##crawl-dev 16:36:45 -!- cosmonaut has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:46:47 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:52:51 -!- Ragdoll_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:21 -!- Ragdoll_ has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:31 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:16 Red_Bucket: scarabs would be a good vault monster for an ossuary 16:58:20 no point otherwise 16:58:55 monsters that burrow under the floor (as opposed to just hide) would be interesting 16:59:11 not really 16:59:15 it'd just be invisibility but different 16:59:32 we already have submerge 16:59:42 so it's not hard to have scarabs as a vault monster 16:59:50 (relatively speaking) 16:59:56 yes, and submerge isn't exactly a great mechanic :P 17:00:05 but yeah, probably not too interesting beyond that 17:00:21 i'm just thinking a renamed goliath beetle in an ossuary 17:00:48 trapdoor scarab! 17:01:40 and a rolling boulder for the dung ball? :p 17:03:05 there's a plan for spriggan assassins, who are out of mgrid and don't even have a hard-cut position 17:03:14 but that's probably not what you want here 17:08:57 Eronarn: it'd be a matter of making a tile and you're set 17:09:18 corpse can be slightly problematic, but that can be disabled in the redefinition 17:09:46 (can't redefine chunks, simulacra, etc) 17:09:59 too bad we don't have 'mummy' as a template like we do specral 17:10:11 mummified scarab! 17:10:31 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:57 i really, really like the colored failure rates 17:14:21 I was thinking undead scarabs for the spider nest to make it less about poison 17:14:32 hmm... that's an... interesting idea. Do you propose redoing Tomb as a set "foo mummy"? 17:14:37 wizards, etc 17:15:45 The problem is normal mummies 17:15:57 Would they be just changed to human mummies? 17:16:53 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:17 kilobyte: that would certainly be one way to do it... right now mummies aren't consistent, though 17:17:21 @??mummy 17:17:21 mummy (15M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 18. 17:17:27 @??guardian mummy 17:17:27 guardian mummy (08M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 7 | Health: 36-55 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 367. 17:17:29 @??mummy priest 17:17:29 mummy priest (05M) | Speed: 8 | HD: 10 | Health: 53-76 | AC/EV: 8/7 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1387 | Sp: demon, smiting (7-17), torment symbol, summon undead. 17:17:32 hrm, right... you can't tell apart regular humanoids when mummified 17:17:32 @??greater mummy 17:17:33 greater mummy (16M) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 185-210 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Damage: 35 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 9026 | Sp: demon, smiting (7-17), torment symbol, summon undead. 17:17:34 @??khufu 17:17:34 Khufu (04M) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 240 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Damage: 35 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 12953 | Sp: demon, smiting (7-17), torment symbol, summon undead, doroklohe tomb. 17:17:38 @??menkaure 17:17:38 Menkaure (06M) | Speed: 8 | HD: 3 | Health: 24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 154 | Sp: pain (d8), haste, torment symbol. 17:17:43 *totally* different statlines... 17:17:46 a human, orc or elf mummy would look exactly the same 17:17:47 for no reason, either 17:18:19 kilobyte: well, it could be okay to have stuff like 'mummified troll' 17:18:31 it'd be something you'd want to apply judiciously, not randomly showing up 17:18:39 Mummies need to be redone anyway 17:18:49 It doesn 17:19:10 I'd say "troll mummy" sounds better 17:19:15 It doesn't make sense for only normal ones to be vulnerable to fire and it doesn't make sense for priests and greaters to have enchantment immunity 17:19:24 personally i would recommend making all mummies actspeed 10 move 8 17:19:40 if we can't even take that first step, no point to making a template or anything 17:19:48 since that's not even the only difference between them 17:20:19 Priests and guardians need to be consistent with normal mummies. Greaters are whatever. 17:20:27 'need' is a strong word 17:20:39 no mummy has an effective walking speed of 10 17:20:46 kilobyte: ...greater? 17:21:00 greaters and Khufu have it nominally but they keep tormenting you instead of walking 17:21:11 that's different :P 17:21:18 so they have 10 speed while silenced? 17:21:19 :P 17:21:36 also, if we make all mummies act 10 move 8 17:21:42 we can use this as an excuse to make player mummies ponderous 17:21:53 Make them more stronger in ways 17:21:56 To make up for it 17:22:01 teh mostest overpowered race 17:22:01 who ever said that 17:22:31 Actually, it wouldn't really matter since you never move while in combat and just keep spamming summons 17:22:31 player mummy deaths ought to cause mummy curses :7 17:22:35 making player mummies ponderous sounds like a terrible idea 17:22:42 Like greater mummies 17:23:02 Wensley: terribly awesome 17:23:13 Eronarn: and you're terribly awesome for suggesting it 17:23:34 heck, people hate mummy apts 17:23:41 what about making them ponderous and giving them +1 to all? 17:23:52 !apt mu 17:23:55 Mu: Air: -2, Armour: -2, Axes: -2, Bows: -2, Charms: -2, Conj: -2, Xbows: -2, Dodge: -2, Earth: -2, Evo: -2, Exp: 140, Fighting: 0, Fire: -2, Hexes: -1, Ice: -2, Inv: -2*, Long: -2, Maces: -2, Nec: 0, Poison: -2, Polearms: -2, Shields: -2, Short: -2, Slings: -2, Splcast: 0, Stab: -2, Staves: -2, Stealth: -2, Summ: -2, Throw: -2*, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -2, Traps: -2, Unarmed: -2* 17:24:20 Eronarn: Naga mummies? 17:24:23 I think a slow race needs to have some kind of powerful escape mechanism to make up for it 17:24:30 Wensley: like nagas 17:24:36 nagas are bad 17:24:53 only nomes are good 17:24:55 theoretically 17:25:24 um 17:25:26 lava orcs 17:25:27 Wensley: "bad"? 17:25:56 you mean, all the �bernagas were "challenge games"? 17:26:00 kilobyte: as in according to my criteria for making up for the inability to run away. poison spit is sort of okay, but not really worth it 17:26:11 best race for running Zigs, I'd say. 17:26:35 and with constriction, they're good in regular game as well now 17:26:41 oh right, constriction 17:26:44 nagas might rule now 17:27:17 probably! 17:27:41 in my tests, it's cheat mode 17:27:50 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:28:06 well, constriction is broken :P 17:28:59 man, how does 'An adventurer's gravestone' not have a quote 17:29:33 "HERE LIES ARDUOUS THE GUSTY OF LOROSIA. DEATH BY QUOKKA" 17:29:36 0.10 NaDK >>>>>>>>>> 0.5 MDFi 17:29:38 Gravestones are individually defined in each vault that uses them, sometimes they have slightly different names. They're actually just reskinned statues 17:31:05 FR: NetHack-style headstones 17:31:44 seems like the damage nerf to constriction was a good step but it still has the issue of hitting too easily 17:32:13 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:32:14 Yeah 17:32:21 Why does constriction have infinite accuracy 17:32:39 It already does hilarious damage to small monsters 17:32:56 And my mouse died so I'm probably gonna be playing more of my roguelikes now 17:32:59 the new formula isn't that good, yeah 17:33:03 kilobyte: we should probably fix yred before .10, huh :P 17:33:09 is yred broken 17:33:18 Split yred into another god 17:33:20 Wensley: servitors before Lair 17:33:24 ha 17:33:28 Make said god give umbra like TSO gives halo 17:33:31 Wensley: yred gifting was always bad, but servitors just make it more visibly bad 17:33:34 0.10 will be yred's time to shine 17:33:38 hodk 17:33:42 lodk 17:33:47 that's for 0.11 17:34:04 lavapodes 17:34:04 Eronarn: Yred + heat aura... 17:34:44 Yred/Beogh/Jiyva + heat aura... 17:34:46 kilobyte: statue fo- 17:34:48 whoops 17:35:13 So could my adapting mutation race work if the mutations wore off like heat does on LO? 17:35:27 Red_Bucket: it wouldn't be that fun imo 17:35:39 it'd work better if the resistances were paired with something else 17:36:33 It would bring the decision to either rest and lose some resistances, or rush ahead and try to milk them. 17:36:41 kilobyte: if i make a patch to make constriction do an attack instead of being an immediate success check, will you commit it? 17:37:36 I really wouldn't want anything tricky for 0.10 17:37:55 kilobyte: i mean just that, not even changing the success formula 17:37:59 it seems to me the problem is in the size difference factor 17:38:24 Red_Bucket: It also seems abusable to me. 17:38:33 it'd basically just mean constriction is a 'real' attack that tries to start constriction if it hits. this should go in even if the other formulas remain unchanged 17:38:38 Cart around an orc wizard to flame you before fighting Xtahua, for instance. 17:38:54 octopode against orc wizards/priests: you tend to kill them before constricting 17:38:57 It wouldn't work like that 17:39:16 against small enemies: you always constrict, and annihilate them in a single turn 17:39:20 In order to gain a resistance, you need tension and the attack needs to do damage 17:39:38 Higher tension and higher damage from an attack increases the chance of getting one. 17:39:52 Red_Bucket: go fix tension first 17:40:03 That should come along with lava orcs 17:40:09 exactly 17:40:29 My mouse isn't dead, but this computer is not accepting it. 17:40:57 Perhaps tension should be based on "what's the highest possible damage I could take before my next turn, if I do nothing here" 17:41:06 dtsund: that wouldn't work 17:41:13 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:41:17 have you ever looked at crawl damage formulas 17:41:25 Yes, I... have. 17:42:01 how long did it take to recover your sanity 17:42:06 http://www.mspaintadventures.com/extras/ps000020.html 17:42:52 haha 17:44:35 But it should be possible to figure out what damage would be with optimal rolls 17:45:04 that's why i'm asking if you've looked at them 17:45:14 @??xtahua 17:45:14 Xtahua (05D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 19 | Health: 133 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Damage: 35, 17, 20 | Flags: see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(177), 05fire++, 03poison, 12drown | Vul: 12cold | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 5449 | Sp: flame blast (3d38). 17:45:38 Why does he have resist drowning 17:45:38 that's about the simplest one 17:45:43 Is it because he's in the swamp 17:45:43 Red_Bucket: because he's huge 17:46:12 I'd much rather agnes spawn that xtahua if I'm a naga 17:46:14 unfortunately @?? doesn't show size, but you can guess 17:47:20 Also, gotta restart to see if that makes my mouse work 17:47:24 -!- Red_Bucket has left ##crawl-dev 17:49:55 wrt fixing yred, we should probably get on that asap 17:50:04 since i haven't seen any finalized proposals 17:52:20 -!- yogaFLAME has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:54:20 a lame but safe solution: monster x requires you to be at least XL y 17:54:36 kilobyte: heh, that is what i was going to propose as a lame but safe solution :P 17:54:56 number of gifts is abusable and makes late conversions worthless 17:55:02 i think that we should do that for now, but i still feel the right approach in the future is something two-tier (chaff vs. tough things) 17:55:05 yeah 17:55:27 cross-level recall is vital 17:55:35 definitely 17:55:47 i also feel he could use more high-end stuff, so it's not just dragons and servitors 17:55:50 some classed undead 17:56:29 Ancient liches! 17:56:32 * dtsund ducks 17:56:56 my proposal is that the chaff would just never follow you, and stay on the level 17:57:03 -!- alefury has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:57:09 and appear with appropriate messages spontaneously 17:57:13 Actually, maybe Yred could give a temporary ancient lich summon at high piety cost 17:57:30 "Spirits rise from the ground around you!" "Corpses claw their way out of the ground!" 17:57:35 That might be too Makhleb-like, though. 17:58:20 I disagree with the escort/chaff split, but it's a dislike rather than "no because no"; it could be worked into sense. 17:58:22 then the actual cross-level recall ability would be something like 'you summon your bone dragon from your own shadow' 17:58:46 sane quality of gifts and no tedium with herding allies what's important, exact details not so much 17:59:04 kilobyte: the idea is to avoid some of the issue with beogh (i have been playing beogh recently) where you have a ton of chaff orcs you want to level up, so you want to keep them around, but they die super easy 17:59:12 I don't know if I ever shared it, but I once had an idea that with Yred you'd dispel your servants into the shadows, causing darkness on the level, then when you get them back the level lights up again 17:59:45 The degree of darkness being proportional to what you sent away 17:59:50 what would 'darkness on the level' even... 17:59:50 no 17:59:52 that is a bad 18:00:19 Eronarn: my preference would be a very low cap on your death squad, with upgrades if it's full 18:01:52 I kind of like brogue's way of handling perma-allies. You go to the next level, and then they follow you a bit later, regardless of where they were on the previous level. This is less simple than cross level recall though 18:04:24 make yred automatically raise all corpses as zombies, you have to pray to make him leave you any to eat 18:06:01 evilmike: i disagree - i don't feel that would be particularly difficult to code 18:06:16 if you ignore pathing you don't even need to keep the other level loaded 18:06:34 by less simple I mostly was thinking of stuff like shafts 18:07:21 imo they shouldn't follow you down a shaft 18:07:25 or try to go down stairs 18:07:30 it's good if shafts distance you from your allies 18:07:34 what is the rationale for not being able to politely displace neutral monsters 18:07:49 teletraps are a bigger issue if you can just go down stairs and back up with your friends suddenly showing up 18:07:52 would ely be too powerful 18:07:54 yeah. also there's stuff like two stairs close together, where you autotravel through the level before any of your allies follow you 18:08:24 basically it's just more stuff to think about than cross-level recall 18:08:35 evilmike: the way i'd handle it is, when you leave a level, if there's allied monsters, they get removed from the level and added to a list 18:08:46 so they all start following 18:08:55 (unless you've told them to wait, i guess) 18:09:13 what if you go down a stair and then up again? 18:09:40 evilmike: they'd get re-placed on the level. could be close to their original position, because that can be stored 18:10:21 (you could also make this have a timer, like stuff resetting if you go back up/down stairs) 18:11:21 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11:53 a nice thing about this is that aside from making herding effortless, it also means you cant go down a stair with 10+ allies next to you, instead they slowly trickle through 18:12:28 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:35 yeah 18:12:43 on the other hand, though, i think we should do the same for monsters following you 18:13:00 even if it's only by a turn each 18:13:00 Eronarn: so you can take them on one at a time? 18:13:11 Wensley: if you can kill everything that follows you in a turn each, you didn't need to stairscum 18:13:25 also they get free attacks on you when you go down the stairs 18:13:53 remove upward staircases 18:14:21 that'd be a good roguelike gimmick. you have to find an item that can make upward stairs, or you'll never escape 18:14:34 Rogue did this 18:14:43 it was called the amulet of yendor :P 18:14:49 oh, i didn't realize it interacted with stairs in that way 18:14:54 i thought it just gave points or something 18:15:11 rogue does stairs in a weird way 18:15:45 each level only has a single stair, and they only work as down-stairs until you get the amulet 18:15:51 when they magically become up-stairs instead 18:31:46 what about an outright elimination of stairs? 18:32:10 -!- Red_Bucket has joined ##crawl-dev 18:32:11 or nearly so 18:32:17 like, Diablo 1 vs Diablo 2 18:33:02 could have stairs that work like in df 18:33:05 only move you zlevels :) 18:33:56 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 18:34:09 I was thinking undead toned down versions of goliath beetles with rotting attack as scarabs. For the spider nest. 18:34:37 Toned down meaning, more speed, less damage, less armor. 18:34:40 currently, any level you're not on is fully frozen. Unfreezing them is doable -- the only rea 18:34:42 And they can fly 18:34:53 reason currently this is not done is memory usage 18:35:02 which can be optimized damn well 18:35:38 and CPU -- iterating through the whole list of monsters many times a turn is quite easy to get rid of 18:35:48 'the' whole list is a problem, of course 18:36:06 Are you talking about tension 18:36:10 ...no 18:36:15 Ok 18:38:36 without levels being frozen, a staircase is effectively a corridor 18:42:52 that you can fall down 18:42:56 It would be good to keep some limits on them though (I think it would be good for hostile monsters to not to use them unless adjacent to you) 18:43:23 right now you get chased by an ogre, often the best (sometimes the only) tactic you have is to run to a stair 18:43:40 yeah, i agree with that 18:44:26 Die to the ogre is a valid tactic 18:44:32 for felids 18:45:05 you're always better off not dying, especailly when you can outrun them, as felids can 18:45:35 the only exception is if you have some silly strategy for escaping a sprint map 18:45:55 Sprint breaks all the rules anyway 18:47:06 getting rid of the "make a gap then run for the stairs" strategy is not a problem, it's a worthy goal by itself 18:48:09 sorry, getting rid of it is a worthy goal? 18:48:18 if stealth actually helped for getting away from things once they've spotted you, that would help 18:48:41 as is that is the only way to flee without magic 18:53:07 it's also nice that if an ogre around a corner takes off half your hp, you have the option of backing to the previous level and resting. If they always followed you, you'd have to kite it to a convenient hatch, I imagine. Almost the same effect but a lot more tedious 18:54:24 then there are imps, which practically encourage you to "park" them on other levels by being impossible to kill for some characters 18:57:02 yeah, that'd be an incentive to actually fix these issues 18:58:06 rather than paper them over by "you can park them on other levels" or "this Tomb:3 group of monsters is unbeatable, please stair dance them over and over" 18:59:21 torment is a huge offender there 18:59:30 it feels way overused 18:59:35 I've said it over and over that the noise changes make you stair dance tomb 5 times more 18:59:48 tomb:2 and tomb:3 18:59:56 I feel like I once blasted straight through Tomb:3 with Storm magic, but I might be wrong. 19:00:21 !lg * max=mhp 19:00:23 1431223. hyperbolic the Farming Brawler (L27 TrTm), worshipper of Elyvilon, escaped with the Orb and 8 runes on 2009-11-14, with 2945742 points after 215605 turns and 16:11:49. 19:00:29 !lg * max=mhp s=mhp 19:00:31 1431223 games for * (max=mhp): 109152x 11, 84813x 9, 70508x 13, 65091x 16, 64646x 8, 63726x 12, 61129x 14, 59970x 10, 48125x 15, 33219x 19, 31139x 17, 27333x 24, 26428x 18, 26367x 27, 25847x 21, 24956x 23, 24347x 22, 24156x 28, 23964x 20, 22659x 25, 22038x 26, 21432x 30, 20589x 33, 18629x 31, 17474x 29, 15200x 36, 14995x 37, 14343x 40, 14089x 34, 14023x 32, 13857x 35, 12707x 38, 11665x 6, 11514x 4... 19:00:36 !lg * max=mhp x=mhp 19:00:36 1431223. [mhp=1124] hyperbolic the Farming Brawler (L27 TrTm), worshipper of Elyvilon, escaped with the Orb and 8 runes on 2009-11-14, with 2945742 points after 215605 turns and 16:11:49. 19:00:57 !log * max=mhp 19:00:58 1431223. hyperbolic, XL27 TrTm, T:215605: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/hyperbolic/morgue-hyperbolic-20091114-022448.txt 19:01:01 lolwut 19:01:26 Tornado in tomb 3 is a great way to experience every necromatic miscast effect at the same time 19:01:32 Yeah, I had a feeling that'd be a version with Alter Self in it. 19:01:50 i've firestormed tomb 3 19:01:53 it's pretty brutal 19:01:58 he had only +10%hp, could have +30% plus rough scales 3 19:02:02 almost died from it 19:02:05 I tend to do tomb in a way that I don't need to stair dance much, but the noise changes do make a difference 19:02:26 If you're yred, you can solve tomb 3 with ta 19:02:39 I often employ the "nuke tomb" strategy with fire storm or whatever, it goes fine if you set it up right 19:02:53 Necromutation + SustAb x2 19:02:55 it's definitely good, but you can die from the curses 19:02:56 TSO plus two rings of sustain 19:03:05 or necrmut, yeah 19:03:10