--- Log opened Tue Jan 03 00:00:13 2012 --- Day changed Tue Jan 03 2012 00:00 ۰۰-- HangedMan [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:04 < Jevouse> ehehe 00:06 < Jevouse> weird... 00:06 < Jevouse> i don't see 0x33 in the second bye 00:06 < Jevouse> second byte 00:06 <+|amethyst> 0x33 = '3' 00:07 < Jevouse> err 00:07 < Jevouse> Address : 00000010 is the second byte, right 00:08 < Jevouse> not a 3 to be seen 00:10 < Jevouse> i'm just editing the .cs save file directly 00:10 <+|amethyst> err 00:10 <+|amethyst> no, that's the 16th byte 00:10 <+|amethyst> noo 00:10 <+|amethyst> not that 00:11 <+|amethyst> you use crawl edit-save to extract the chunk 00:11 <+|amethyst> and edit that 00:11 <+|amethyst> as CommanderC said 00:11 <+|amethyst> backup first of course :) 00:12 < Jevouse> crawl-edit save? 00:14 < Jevouse> ah 00:14 < Jevouse> in msysgit? 00:14 <+|amethyst> that or cmd 00:15 <+|amethyst> run crawl -edit-save whatever.cs get you foo.txt 00:16 <+|amethyst> then edit foo.txt with a binary-safe editor and change the 3 in the second byte to a 4 00:16 <+|amethyst> then crawl -edit-save whatever.cs set you foo.txt 00:16 <+|amethyst> then you should be good to go 00:16 <+|amethyst> again, back up your save before you do the last step 00:17 < Jevouse> foo.txt will be in the savedir? 00:17 <+|amethyst> current directory 00:17 <+|amethyst> whatever.cs would be e.g. saves\Jevouse.cs 00:18 <+|amethyst> or saves/Jevouse.cs if you're doing this from bash 00:18 < Jevouse> eh 00:19 < Jevouse> it isn't working 00:19 < Jevouse> i type crawl -edit-save foo.cs and no .txt file appears 00:20 <+|amethyst> crawl -edit-save whatever.cs get you foo.txt 00:20 <+|amethyst> "get you foo.txt" is part of the command :) 00:20 < Jevouse> ahhhhh 00:20 < Jevouse> llo 00:20 < Jevouse> lol 00:20 <+|amethyst> I can see the confusion now :) 00:21 < Jevouse> sometimes its way too much like plaintext 00:21 < Jevouse> lol 00:21 < Eronarn> anyone get a chance to try lorcs yet? 00:21 <+|amethyst> not yet 00:21 < Jevouse> err 00:21 < Jevouse> still not working 00:21 <+|amethyst> error message? 00:21 < Jevouse> no error 00:21 <+|amethyst> Eronarn: what was the branch name again? 00:22 < Eronarn> |amethyst: lava_orcs; it's on my github only 00:22 < Jevouse> wait, foo.txt is also foo.txt? 00:22 < Jevouse> or do i need to replace that with the name 00:22 <+|amethyst> yes, the last argument, after "you" is the filename you want it to save as 00:22 <+|amethyst> foo.txt would be fine, it's just temporary 00:22 < Jevouse> hrm 00:23 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24 < Jevouse> it doesn't give any output... 00:24 < Jevouse> no text file 00:26 <+|amethyst> what's the exact command you ran? 00:26 < Jevouse> crawl -edit-save Stabhr.cs get you Stabhr.txt 00:26 < Jevouse> from /crawl-ref/source 00:27 < Jevouse> i tried specifying /saves/Stabhr.cs but that didn't work either 00:27 ۰۰-- capablanca [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:27 <+|amethyst> and you didn't get any error message? 00:27 < Jevouse> nothing 00:27 <+|amethyst> are you running this from the command line? 00:27 < Jevouse> msys.bat 00:27 < Jevouse> BASH 00:27 <+|amethyst> hm 00:28 <+|amethyst> saves/Stabhr.cs no leading slash 00:28 <+|amethyst> you should have gotten plenty of error messages from the previous incorrect commands 00:28 < Jevouse> still nothing 00:28 <+|amethyst> maybe the windows tiles version doesn't print error messages to the terminal 00:28 < Jevouse> it did before 00:29 < Jevouse> remember the comparison between signed and unsigned 00:29 <+|amethyst> err 00:29 <+|amethyst> that was from compiling, not running crawl 00:29 < Jevouse> ah 00:29 <+|amethyst> if you do crawl -help do you see anything? 00:29 < Jevouse> nope 00:29 <+|amethyst> oh 00:29 <+|amethyst> so we're not seeing the error messages 00:30 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:30 ۰۰-- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 00:30 <+|amethyst> are you saves in crawl-ref/source/saves ? 00:30 < Jevouse> yes 00:31 <+|amethyst> if you can get me a copy of the file I can fix it for you 00:31 <+|amethyst> I think my IRC client has dcc enabled 00:32 < Jevouse> so i replace 011 with 100? 00:32 < Jevouse> in the 2nd byte 00:32 < Jevouse> i try first 00:33 <+|amethyst> huh? 00:33 <+|amethyst> 011 with 100? 00:33 < Jevouse> 3 with 4 00:33 <+|amethyst> not the second byte of the .cs file 00:33 <+|amethyst> the second byte of the chunk, which we have not yet succeeded in extracting 00:34 <+|amethyst> it will be 0x33 = ascii '3' 00:34 <+|amethyst> change that to 0x34 = ascii '4' 00:34 <+|amethyst> to verify, the first byte should be 0x20 = ascii ' ' 00:36 < Jevouse> ahhh 00:37 < Jevouse> you DCCallowed me? 00:37 < Jevouse> hrm wait it should work from CMD.exe as well right 00:37 <+|amethyst> I don't think my client needs that 00:37 <+|amethyst> and yes 00:38 <+|amethyst> you'll probably need backslash instead of slash from there 00:39 < Jevouse> what's the unicode for backslash 00:40 <+|amethyst> it's U+005C 00:40 < Jevouse> err, alt-code 00:40 ۰۰-- dtsund [~opera@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40 <+|amethyst> how do you type directory separators normally? 00:41 <+|amethyst> it might work with a slash 00:41 < Jevouse> CommanderC uses an extra - in front of edit 00:41 < Jevouse> --edit-save 00:41 <+|amethyst> it should work with one or two 00:42 <+|amethyst> but try it with two just in case 00:42 <+|amethyst> not being able to see error messages makes it kind of difficult to know what's going wrong :) 00:42 < Jevouse> cmd.exe doesn't get any error messages either 00:42 < Jevouse> lol 00:42 < Jevouse> is there a way to enable error reporting 00:42 < Jevouse> i don't want to have to dcc files to you all the time 00:43 <+|amethyst> I have no clue about the windows tile version 00:43 < Jevouse> oh wait 00:43 < Jevouse> i got something! 00:43 <+|amethyst> I was surprised it didn't give them anyway 00:43 < Jevouse> there is output 00:43 < Jevouse> lol 00:43 < Jevouse> from cmd.exe 00:43 < Jevouse> wtf 00:43 < Henzell> Duckman the Devastator (L24 DrFE) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 941 failed on turn 80204. (Zot:1) 00:44 < Jevouse> ah there we go 00:44 < Jevouse> 33 in the 2nd byte 00:45 < Jevouse> lol 00:45 < Jevouse> it put the foo.txt in the main directory 00:45 < Jevouse> gah 00:45 <+|amethyst> that's fine 00:45 <+|amethyst> it puts it in whatever your current directory is 00:46 <+|amethyst> but that's okay because it means you can also say foo.txt when doing the put 00:46 < Jevouse> hrmm 00:46 < Jevouse> my hex editor doesn't show me 0x33 00:46 < Jevouse> it just shows me 33 00:46 <+|amethyst> that's fine 00:46 < Jevouse> so i'll paste 34 in 00:46 < Jevouse> right? 00:46 <+|amethyst> the "0x" is a C/C++ convention 00:47 <+|amethyst> paste? 00:47 <+|amethyst> but yeah 00:47 <+|amethyst> replace the 33 with a 34 00:48 < Jevouse> it doesn't do text editing 00:48 < Jevouse> only find/replace 00:48 <+|amethyst> err 00:48 <+|amethyst> you definitely don't want to replace all of them 00:48 <+|amethyst> just that one :) 00:48 < Jevouse> of course not 00:48 < Jevouse> lol 00:48 <+|amethyst> oh, okay :) 00:50 < Jevouse> augh 00:50 < Jevouse> do i have to rebuild and make clean every time it crashes 00:51 <+|amethyst> no; if you do it once you *should* get a .d file for each of the .cc files 00:51 < Jevouse> ok 00:51 < Jevouse> here goes nothing 00:52 <+|amethyst> once that happens that should prevent this particular problem from occurring in the future 00:52 < Jevouse> IT WORKS 00:52 <+|amethyst> just to verify, you do have a files.d now, right? 00:52 < Jevouse> somehow cmd.exe works while bash doesn't 00:52 < Jevouse> faugh 00:52 < Jevouse> yes 00:52 < Jevouse> i do 00:52 <+|amethyst> maybe it was slash versus backslash 00:52 < Jevouse> i used / for both 00:53 <+|amethyst> oh 00:53 <+|amethyst> no clue then :) 00:53 <+|amethyst> oh 00:53 < Jevouse> maybe it was the -- 00:53 < Jevouse> no wait 00:53 < Jevouse> that's wrong 00:53 < Jevouse> - worked for the put 00:53 <+|amethyst> in bash crawl might not have been in your PATH 00:53 <+|amethyst> but then you should have gotten an error from bash, which definitely wouldn't be hidden 00:53 < Jevouse> lol 00:53 < Jevouse> then it wouldn't be in the CMD PATH either 00:54 <+|amethyst> I believe cmd includes the current directory in the path always, doesn't it? 00:54 <+|amethyst> bash does not 00:54 < Jevouse> i was using both from the same directory 00:54 < Jevouse> crawl-ref/source 00:54 <+|amethyst> probably in bash you needed ./crawl 00:54 <+|amethyst> or ./crawl.exe 00:54 < Jevouse> ah 00:54 < Jevouse> but that means commanderC put crawl in the path? 00:55 < Jevouse> since he didn't use those 00:55 <+|amethyst> or was using cmd 00:55 <+|amethyst> or had done 'make install' 00:55 <+|amethyst> no clue 00:55 < Jevouse> well i think its related to my having to use git pull origin master 00:55 < Jevouse> instead of git pull 00:55 < Jevouse> only 00:57 < Jevouse> i can't understand why either 00:58 <+|amethyst> do git config branch.master.remote origin 00:59 <+|amethyst> you might also need git config branch.master.merge refs/heads/master 00:59 < Jevouse> lol 00:59 < Jevouse> it works with only the first 00:59 < Jevouse> wait, no 01:00 < Jevouse> .... 01:00 < Jevouse> your configuration specifies to merge with the ref "master" from the remote, but no such ref was fetched 01:01 < Jevouse> ahhh 01:01 < Jevouse> ok 01:01 < Jevouse> i see 01:01 < Jevouse> nevermind 01:01 < Jevouse> i did git config branch.master.remote origin 01:01 < Jevouse> again 01:01 < Jevouse> works now 01:01 < Jevouse> thanks 01:01 <+|amethyst> cool 01:01 < Jevouse> so does make install config these two variables for you? 01:02 <+|amethyst> no, but git clone should have 01:02 < Jevouse> it didn't 01:04 < Jevouse> presumably because i git cloned it with the fullinstall instead of the netinstall 01:04 < Jevouse> although i can't for the life of me see why that would matter 01:05 <+|amethyst> I don't think it would 01:05 <+|amethyst> maybe I'm misremembering and you have to do an explicit git checkout -b master for that to happen 01:05 <+|amethyst> but in any even you shouldn't need to now 01:06 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:06 < Jevouse> yeah, nice 01:09 <+|amethyst> hm 01:09 <+|amethyst> so there's this Makefile rule 01:09 <+|amethyst> %.d: %.cc .cflags $(GENERATED_HEADERS) 01:10 <+|amethyst> @$(RM) $@ 01:10 <+|amethyst> which I guess is supposed to remove the .d files when the .cc (or cflags) is changed 01:11 <+|amethyst> that looks a little suspicious to me 01:11 ۰۰-- capablanca [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11 < Jevouse> it removes the .d files 01:11 < Jevouse> but then a new files.d is not generated 01:12 <+|amethyst> yeah, with the idea being that they'll be regenerated later 01:12 <+|amethyst> I wonder if maybe the .o is being generated first 01:13 < Jevouse> the output before the dependency? 01:14 <+|amethyst> in the normal case (unless you're using icc as your compiler), the rules to generate the objects will also generate the dependencies 01:14 < Jevouse> yes 01:15 < Jevouse> so you'll take a look at the %.d generation 01:15 <+|amethyst> hm... actually 01:15 < Jevouse> err the %.o generation 01:16 <+|amethyst> when NO_INLINE_DEPGEN is not set (the default), the only thing that depends on the .d files appears to be the 'depend' target 01:16 <+|amethyst> so unless you did make depend, that should never be executed 01:17 <+|amethyst> the makefile is a horrid mess 01:18 <+|amethyst> I'm not sure how it works as well as it does in the usual case 01:18 < Jevouse> so files.o would depend on files.d 01:18 < Jevouse> in this case 01:18 <+|amethyst> nope 01:18 < Jevouse> or is that files.cc 01:18 <+kilobyte> no, compilation does this as a side effect 01:18 <+|amethyst> the .d gets generated as a side effect of generating the .o 01:18 <+|amethyst> what kilobyte said 01:18 <+kilobyte> otherwise you'd have to parse the whole thing twice 01:19 <+|amethyst> so what would cause the .d but not the .o to be missing ? 01:19 < Jevouse> so its generating files.o but not files.d 01:19 < Jevouse> .. 01:19 < Jevouse> lo 01:19 < Jevouse> l 01:19 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: is make depend really supposed to remove the .d files and that's all? 01:20 < Jevouse> does files.d set NO_INLINE_DEPGEN for some reason? 01:20 <+|amethyst> no, the .d files are just single rules 01:21 <+kilobyte> "make depend" can be removed, it's never used 01:21 <+|amethyst> and if someone did try to use it, it would screw up the dependencies 01:22 <+|amethyst> since you'd now have .o files newer than the .cc files, but no .d file---exactly the situation our three bug reporters are in (though probably for other reasons) 01:23 ۰۰-- [1]capablanca [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:23 < Jevouse> so your suspicion is someone sneaked in a make depend somewhere? 01:24 <+|amethyst> mikee_: fetching square brackets 01:24 ۰۰-- [1]capablanca is now known as mikee_ 01:24 <+|amethyst> Jevouse: not necessarily, but that's once of the ways in which it could happen 01:24 <+|amethyst> s/once/one/ 01:24 <+|amethyst> s/in which // 01:25 ۰۰-- capablanca [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:31 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: I'm not sure I see the reason for that %.d: %.cc @$(RM) $@ rule 01:32 < Jevouse> |amethyst : wasn't there supposed to be explanation for how to get spellcasting for non spellcasters 01:34 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: you can't use stale dependencies 01:35 <+kilobyte> and they're not needed anyway since all .d files do is possibly telling make that .o needs to be rebuilt, and that's already known 01:36 ۰۰-- MarvinPA [~MarvinPA@85.210.96.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:40 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: stale dependencies are better than no dependencies, no? 01:41 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:42 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: if, somehow, the .d is missing but the .o is up-to-date WRT to .cc file, make will not rebuild the .o (and thus not rebuild the .d) even if one of the headers changed 01:44 <+|amethyst> I guess the question is how the reporters got into such a state 01:46 < Jevouse> no freaking clue 01:46 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: stale dependencies are worse than having to rebuild everything from scratch every time 01:47 < Jevouse> i just pull the newest stuff and make TILES=y 01:48 <+kilobyte> with stale ones, forget about building for different targets, platforms or compilers from the same tree without manual "make clean" every time 01:49 <+|amethyst> if they're missing, you also have to do a manual 'make clean' 01:49 <+kilobyte> a primitive makefile that rebuilds everything every time (relying on ccache) would at least avoid manual action 01:49 <+kilobyte> why? 01:50 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: let's say you're up to date, then do rm files.d 01:50 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 01:50 <+kilobyte> only clang can't produce dependencies in one pass, but it has explicit rules 01:50 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: then you touch tag-version.h and do a make (with the same flags as last time) 01:51 <+kilobyte> yeah, currently the makefile can't handle this but it should never, ever happen unless you do it by hand 01:51 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:51 < Jevouse> didn't do anything by hand 01:51 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51 <+kilobyte> so something is terribly amiss 01:52 <+|amethyst> a 'make depend' would do it, but Jevouse didn't do that so that can't be the problem 01:52 <+|amethyst> ("do it" = remove the .d file without the .o file) 01:53 <+|amethyst> s/without/without removing/ 01:53 < Jevouse> it was just that build that removed it 01:54 <+|amethyst> git clean -x will remove both the .o and the .d .... likewise make clean 01:54 <+|amethyst> so I don't know what else would result in an up-to-date .o with no .d file 01:55 < Jevouse> (Last updated 2012-01-02, 0.10-a0-3045-gbee761a) 01:55 < Jevouse> (Last updated 2012-01-02, 0.10-a0-3044-gafeda71) 01:55 < Jevouse> that's windows regular build and tiles build 01:56 < Jevouse> respectively 01:56 < Jevouse> on trunk download 01:56 < Jevouse> version on tiles not iterating, why? 01:57 <+|amethyst> Jevouse: what's that from? 01:57 < Jevouse> crawl.develz.org/trunk/ 01:57 <+|amethyst> there was a commit between one build and the other 01:58 < Jevouse> ah 01:58 < Jevouse> lol 01:58 < Jevouse> ninja commit 01:58 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: it seems like every time you pull new changes without doing a full rebuild (whether by make clean or a cflags change), you're going to be using stale dependencies (if there was a .d file left around for Make to include) or no dependencies at all (if there was none) 02:07 <+|amethyst> stale dependencies are maybe problematic, but no dependencies is definitely problematic 02:07 <+|amethyst> as you say, forcing a full rebuild would fix it 02:08 <+|amethyst> but in that case there's no point to having the dependency files at all 02:10 <+|amethyst> and, for that matter, not much point to having a Makefile rather than a build script 02:12 <+|amethyst> one solution might be to have the dependency files in git, and to force them to be regenerated (whether via dev discipline or, more likely, a hook) before each commit 02:12 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: no, in that case .o is older than .cc 02:13 <+|amethyst> I mean, fully regenerated 02:13 <+|amethyst> hm 02:13 <+kilobyte> the first rule of version control is "no generated files should be checked in" 02:14 <+kilobyte> and somehow most other projects manage dependencies 02:14 <+kilobyte> like, automake does everything right unless you break it 02:14 ۰۰-- ZChris13 [~ZChris13@64.20.128.250.dyn-e-pool1.pool.hargray.net] has quit [Quit: diesel] 02:15 <+kilobyte> (suffering from some of autoconf downsides, of course) 02:16 <+kilobyte> also, we got tags.cc and tag-version.h updates for years without a single problem 02:16 <+kilobyte> so something else must have happened 02:16 <+|amethyst> one recentish change that I committed was: 02:16 <+|amethyst> %git f82d76d3 02:16 < Cheibriados> |amethyst * rf82d76d3c7be: Always include .d files in Makefile (moxian). (2 weeks ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 02:17 <+|amethyst> but that was to fix a very similar problem 02:19 <+|amethyst> before that, the .d files weren't even being included unless you changed flags 02:20 <+|amethyst> %git bdabd553 02:21 < Cheibriados> SamB * rbdabd553ad32: Makefile: Don't do out-of-line depgen unless NO_INLINE_DEPGEN is set. (3 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 02:22 <+|amethyst> you noted yourself that that commit was problematic 02:22 <+SamB> |amethyst: say what?? 02:22 * SamB thought the .d files were included regardless ... 02:22 <+|amethyst> they weren't back then 02:22 <+SamB> ... just that sometimes there weren't any to include 02:24 <+|amethyst> prior to f82d76d3 the -include $(deps) was inside an ifeq (,$(findstring clean,$(MAKECMDGOALS))) ifeq (,$(findstring test,$(MAKECMDGOALS))) ifeq (,$(filter %-windows,$(MAKECMDGOALS))) 02:24 <+|amethyst> hm 02:24 <+SamB> |amethyst: stale dependencies are problematic in ONE case: 02:24 <+SamB> they involve files that no longer exist 02:24 <+|amethyst> yeah, that is a problem 02:24 <+|amethyst> hm 02:25 <+|amethyst> hm 02:25 <+SamB> also, you don't need .d files to do a clean 02:25 <+|amethyst> hm 02:26 <+|amethyst> it was the build-windows thing that was the problem there 02:26 <+SamB> why was that a problem? 02:26 <+SamB> doesn't that do a recursive make anyway? 02:26 <+|amethyst> I think I misunderstood the problem 02:26 <+SamB> (and virtually nothing in the parent make?) 02:27 <+|amethyst> hm... I credited that to moxian 02:27 <+SamB> it's certainly a confusing area 02:28 <+SamB> I can't help but wish that make could be more clued-in about dependancy generation 02:29 <+kilobyte> SamB: another, probably unrelated problem: there's a misbuid every time tile defs change. Ie, the very thing that order only dependencies is supposed to do. 02:29 <+|amethyst> yeah, f82d76d3 did not do what I thought it did... and probably didn't do anything 02:29 <+SamB> kilobyte: there is? 02:29 <+SamB> that's ODD 02:30 <+kilobyte> if the headers change, they need to be recompiled (obviously) 02:30 <+SamB> kilobyte: yeah, that's what the deps in the .d files are for 02:30 <+kilobyte> I mean, tile headers 02:31 <+|amethyst> %git 5efc0ba7 02:31 < Cheibriados> SamB * r5efc0ba7026f: Makefile: Simplify the inclusion of .d files and the "depend" rule. (3 months ago, 1 file, 3+ 4-) 02:31 <+|amethyst> was that actually a no-op the way it appeared to be? 02:32 <+SamB> |amethyst: was intended to be 02:32 <+SamB> the order-only ones are just there to make sure that tiledef headers are there for any file that has either no .d yet or a stale .d 02:32 <+SamB> (and hadn't included the tiledef headers before) 02:34 <+SamB> kilobyte: of course, more than usual, I might have screwed up 02:34 <+SamB> but I'm not aware of having done so ;-P 02:35 <+kilobyte> SamB: tilepick.cc has a compilation check that at least guards it, other files have silent misbuilds 02:35 <+SamB> kilobyte: how does that happen? 02:36 <+kilobyte> one compilation check is enough to fail the build; it still makes bisecting/etc a bitch 02:37 <+kilobyte> a test case: git checkout master; make debug; git checkout portal_branches; make debug 02:37 <+SamB> is the .d file somehow not adding normal deps for the needed tiledef headers? 02:37 <+|amethyst> you're never going to be building against the current .d files 02:37 <+kilobyte> same if an item tile has been added/removed 02:37 <+|amethyst> because they haven't been generated yet by the time they're included 02:38 <+SamB> yeah 02:39 <+SamB> but do they not still list all files used to build the .o? 02:39 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: .d files are needed only if .o exists 02:39 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: but in your example doesn't the .o exist in the second build? 02:40 <+kilobyte> I guess, if there's .o but not .d, it's better to rebuild the .o 02:40 <+SamB> if none of those files has changed, and no macros definitions have changed, will the compiler not be getting the same exact source for the compilation unit? 02:40 <+kilobyte> if .o doesn't exist, all is ok -- it will be rebuilt 02:40 <+SamB> yes, it is bad if there is a .o but no .d 02:41 <+SamB> I couldn't figure out a foolproof way to prevent that :-( 02:41 <+SamB> I don't see how it can happen *without* the fool, though 02:44 <+|amethyst> hm 02:44 <+|amethyst> what if the set of headers included by a header change? 02:45 <+SamB> that would involve changing that header 02:45 <+|amethyst> hm, yeah 02:45 <+kilobyte> (got to go, sorry) 02:45 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: thanks, later 02:46 <+SamB> if this doesn't make your head spin at all, please see your physician 02:46 * Jevouse is consulting his third opinion right about now... 02:52 <+|amethyst> I don't know how it happened, but right now sitting in my main build directory I have the following: 02:52 <+|amethyst> oh 02:53 <+|amethyst> never mind 02:54 <+|amethyst> I thought I had an out-of-date .d file, but it is associated with a now-deleted .cc file 02:55 < G-Flex> is something weird going on with cao at the moment 02:56 <+|amethyst> G-Flex: weird how? 02:56 < G-Flex> it went unresponsive 02:56 < G-Flex> then I closed the session and connected again 02:56 <+|amethyst> it's responding to me 02:56 < G-Flex> and it said there was a stale process, but it couldn't kill it 02:56 <+|amethyst> I've had that happen before 02:56 < G-Flex> and now it's saying "Another game is already in progress using this save!" 02:56 < G-Flex> someone else in ##crawl said there are problems as well 02:57 < G-Flex> apparently it's not just me 02:58 <+|amethyst> hm, it's not everybody 02:58 <+|amethyst> there are people currently playing, and I was able to start a game, save, and load it 02:59 <+|amethyst> are you 'G-Flex' on CAO? 02:59 ۰۰-- wtface [~o_O@c-67-169-135-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Your quote here!] 02:59 < G-Flex> nope 02:59 <+|amethyst> what username? 02:59 < G-Flex> !nick 02:59 < G-Flex> does that work 02:59 < G-Flex> damn. 02:59 < G-Flex> swinepaste 02:59 <+|amethyst> hmm 03:00 <+|amethyst> well, if henzell is down, that's a problem :) 03:00 < G-Flex> ??putz 03:00 <+|amethyst> !lg * crash 03:00 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled putz in my learndb. 03:00 < Sequell> Unknown selector: verb 03:00 < G-Flex> nope 03:00 <+|amethyst> oh 03:00 < G-Flex> not down 03:00 <+|amethyst> just laggy 03:00 < G-Flex> that sure didn't seem laggy to me 03:00 <+|amethyst> oh, right 03:00 <+|amethyst> !nick G-Flex 03:00 < Sequell> Mapping g-flex => swinepaste 03:00 < Henzell> Mapping g-flex => swinepaste 03:00 <+|amethyst> !nick 03:01 < G-Flex> I don't think !nick does anything with no arguments 03:01 <+|amethyst> aha 03:01 < G-Flex> should probably default to the nick of whoever uses the command 03:01 <+|amethyst> I got a burst of lag, but I think that was my IRC connection 03:02 <@due> delicious swine? 03:02 <+|amethyst> rax: swinepaste (G-Flex on IRC) and Poncheis appear to have stuck processes: "Another game is already in progress using this save!" 03:02 < G-Flex> my KoBe is frozen in time. 03:02 < G-Flex> in a ghost process. 03:05 <+|amethyst> G-Flex: I suggest you play on CDO, or a different version on CAO, for now 03:05 <+|amethyst> not much that can be done by anyone but rax and maybe greensnark 03:06 < G-Flex> I think crate on ##crawl was having problems too 03:06 < G-Flex> [02:37:42] cao is having problems, just have to wait till its fixed 03:06 <+|amethyst> rax: and apparently crate as well ? 03:14 <+|amethyst> SamB: well, I've got to go, work tomorrow. I've unassigned 5163 from myself... and 5075 should probably be re-opened (and the issues merged) 03:15 <+|amethyst> I'm not touching the Makefile anymore, I am clearly in over my head there 03:22 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:23 <+SamB> |amethyst: aren't we all? 03:23 <+SamB> or, well, up to our noses anyway? 03:29 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00 ۰۰-- Pacra [~Pacra@c-68-44-35-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:06 ۰۰-- st_ [~s@cpc10-stre5-2-0-cust69.1-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:10 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-49-221.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 04:11 ۰۰-- the_glow1 [~the_glow@host109-155-103-105.range109-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13 ۰۰-- the_glow [~the_glow@host86-176-60-201.range86-176.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:13 <+kilobyte> well, isn't knowing about one's own ignorance the most important step for any improvement? :p 04:14 <+kilobyte> (I lack clue here too...) 04:15 < Jevouse> force make clean and rebuild every time 04:15 < Jevouse> this shit is irritating 04:15 < Jevouse> lol 04:19 ۰۰-- dtsund [~opera@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has quit [Quit: dtsund] 04:19 <+kilobyte> I think I got an idea how to solve everything but inclusion of stale deps 04:19 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20 <+kilobyte> ie, like "-include $(DEPS)", but omitting those which are older than their .cc 04:20 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has left ##crawl-dev [] 04:26 <+kilobyte> can't seem to find a way to do this in make proper... an unsightly $(shell ) loop could work, perhaps 04:43 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has left ##crawl-dev ["Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is"] 05:25 ۰۰-- syllogism [syllogism@89-166-16-68.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:28 ۰۰-- Ragdoll [~Ragdoll@53518A17.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34 < Cheibriados> Save in use - unable to play (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5165) by evaa 07:08 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27 ۰۰-- Arian- [~aria-jaf@triton.dsv.su.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:30 ۰۰-- Pingas_ [~Pingas@40.181.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31 ۰۰-- Pingas [~Pingas@40.181.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:36 ۰۰-- MarvinPA [~MarvinPA@85.210.96.109] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v MarvinPA] by ChanServ 07:37 ۰۰-- G-Flex [~swimswim@ip70-188-164-236.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:41 ۰۰-- monqy [~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 07:59 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06 ۰۰-- G-Flex [swimswim@ip70-188-164-236.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18 < Jevouse> AHA! its MOXIAN 08:18 < moxian> huh? 08:26 < Jevouse> makefile problem 08:28 < moxian> i broke somehing? 08:29 < Jevouse> more like you didn't fix something you thought you did 08:55 < CIA-112> kilobyte * ra629cc6fc16e /crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Deal with missing dependency files. 08:56 < Jevouse> kilobyte: unsightly shell loop? 08:59 ۰۰-- DrPraetor [~kvirc@pool-96-252-87-131.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00 < DrPraetor> Someone should download the save backup I just made, which has arisen from a spectacular crash: https://crawl.akrasiac.org/saves/dumps/DrPraetor-crawl-git-ddaf7fc28f-120103-0858.tar.bz2 09:01 < DrPraetor> And deleting the current save doesn't seem to work... 09:03 <+kilobyte> nothing in this save seems to be amiss... 09:06 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06 < Jevouse> kilobyte: what'd you use to fix missing .d 09:07 < DrPraetor> quoth CAO: "Another game is already in progress using this save!" 09:07 < DrPraetor> This is after I tried an un-nice kill of the game process, after it froze on me. 09:12 < Jevouse> ngh 09:12 < Jevouse> died 09:13 < Jevouse> owell time to apply KB's fix 09:15 < G-Flex> that happened to a bunch of people 09:15 < G-Flex> including myself 09:15 < G-Flex> DrPraetor, did it freeze on you on cao a few hours ago maybe? 09:15 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19 ۰۰-- DrPraetor [~kvirc@pool-96-252-87-131.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:24 ۰۰-- joosa [~joosa@heh.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:25 ۰۰-- Textmode [~boneidle@adsl-syd-2-209.ozonline.com.au] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:30 ۰۰-- jeanjacques [~jejacques@port-92-200-70-80.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35 <@rax> ....what is up with CAO? 09:35 < Henzell> nogglebeak the Poker (L7 MfBe) (D:6) 09:35 < Henzell> valrus the Magician (L10 OpSk) (Ossuary) 09:35 < Henzell> talkingcatjazzcat the Ruinous (L4 DrWz) (Temple) 09:35 < Henzell> Poncheis the Shield-Bearer (L4 MiFi) (D:4) 09:36 < Henzell> Jubu the Charmwright (L3 SpSk) (D:2) 09:36 < Henzell> Tally the Sorcerer (L24 SpAr) (Crypt:5) 09:36 < Henzell> crate the Markself (L13 HEHu) (Lair:8) 09:36 < Henzell> Wop the Magician (L5 HuWz) (D:3) 09:36 < Henzell> indspenceable the Thaumaturge (L11 DEWz) (D:10) 09:36 < Henzell> Lawman0 the Geomancer (L15 NaEE) (Orc:1) 09:36 < Henzell> dw the Covert (L6 NaEn) (Temple) 09:36 < Henzell> Palyth the Sneak (L4 SpVM) (D:2) 09:36 <@rax> Uh hi Henzell thank you for sharing? 09:36 < Henzell> DrPraetor the Digger (L6 OpEE) (D:3) 09:36 < Henzell> Honey the Vandal (L2 SEHu) (D:2) 09:36 < Henzell> davejl the Gusty (L4 TeAE) (D:2) 09:37 < G-Flex> rax: is it still goofing up? 09:38 < G-Flex> rax: some hours ago it froze up for me and seemingly other people 09:38 < G-Flex> then kept stale sessions open or something 09:38 < G-Flex> !whereis 09:38 < Henzell> swinepaste the Unseen (L19 KoBe), a worshipper of Trog, last saved on Snake:5 on 2012-01-03 after 53187 turns. 09:38 < G-Flex> oh wow 09:38 < G-Flex> I guess it got fixed maybe 09:38 < G-Flex> it was telling me (and others) that our saves were already in use by another process 09:39 <@rax> There was a stuck process and I killed it 09:39 <@rax> But I can't find anything else wrong 09:39 <@rax> I think it was some trunk bug 09:39 < Jevouse> he killed kenny 09:39 < Jevouse> ! 09:39 < Jevouse> wonder if the dependencies deleted 09:40 < G-Flex> well thanks for taking care of it 09:40 <@rax> No problem. Sorry I wasn't around sooner; middle of the night in my time zone :) 09:41 < G-Flex> EST? 09:41 <@rax> Mountain time actually 09:41 < G-Flex> oh okay 09:41 < G-Flex> I assumed you were near the server for whatever reason 09:41 <@rax> I was for a long time, moved for grad school 09:43 ۰۰-- HangedMan [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47 < HangedMan> ice form seems to be almost never producing any of the big bursts of blood other melee does with ignite blood, even though it should be dealing plenty of damage 09:47 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47 ۰۰-- DrPraetor [~kvirc@pool-96-252-87-131.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48 < DrPraetor> Ah.... it was around an hour and a half ago now, I think. 09:49 < DrPraetor> Ah, there goes. 09:50 < Jevouse> HangedMan: maybe ice form freezes their blood in their veins! 09:50 < HangedMan> hah 09:50 < HangedMan> but how does that relate to making others spill more or less blood 09:51 < Jevouse> you can't spill anything if its frozen to your body 09:51 < Jevouse> wow rax is female? 09:51 < Jevouse> :O 09:51 < HangedMan> no, not the ds's blood, enemy blood 09:52 < Jevouse> yeah 09:52 < Jevouse> ice form freezes teh enemy too 09:56 <@rax> Jevouse: It's... not that astonishing? 09:56 < Jevouse> i'm astonished because rax seems inherently male 09:57 < Jevouse> the name, i mean 09:58 <@rax> I do like it for its gender-neutrality as compared to other short forms of my name! 09:58 < G-Flex> why is it some kind of major thing that someone is female 09:58 < Jevouse> could've gone iwth red 09:58 <@rax> Since in online spaces I often don't want to telegraph "look, I've got tits!" 09:58 < G-Flex> does g-flex sound masculine or feminine 09:58 <@rax> red is my username on work machines in fact 09:58 < Jevouse> omg 09:58 < Jevouse> lol 09:59 < G-Flex> rax: the fact that using a feminine name would have reason to make you uncomfortable probably says a lot about how internet people respond to the very existence of women 09:59 <@rax> G-Flex: In point of fact. :/ 09:59 < Jevouse> lol 10:00 <@rax> I mean there's also sort of a butchy-genderqueer thing going on for me personally, but that's more of a ##crawl-offtopic conversation. :P 10:00 < Henzell> qtip the Farming Petrodigitator (L27 DsEE) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed on turn 218991. (Dis:2) 10:00 < G-Flex> ##crawl-offtopic seemed to get a *lot* of that kind of conversation when I went there 10:00 < G-Flex> for some reason 10:00 < G-Flex> like, to the point of statistical anomaly 10:01 < Jevouse> you a ballbuster rax? 10:01 < Jevouse> heh 10:01 < HangedMan> vaguely reminded of Fat, Ugly or Slutty 10:01 < G-Flex> (not to say it's a bad thing, just statistically perplexing, like there's something about the roguelike demographic I don't understand) 10:02 <@rax> Yeah there is definitely something odd about it. but it's also quite cool. I think once we had critical mass other less crawl-related people just started showing up 10:03 < Jevouse> the centralization effect 10:07 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: awesome, it appears to work 10:08 < Jevouse> |amethyst. what'd he use 10:08 < G-Flex> and of ourse 10:08 < G-Flex> course* 10:08 < G-Flex> I load up my save, do something really stupid, and die 10:08 < G-Flex> maybe I shouldn't play crawl after being awake for this long 10:08 ۰۰-- ZChris13 [~ZChris13@64.20.128.250.dyn-e-pool1.pool.hargray.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09 < Jevouse> ...do monsters with reaching get blocked by monsters in their LoF 10:09 < Jevouse> like players do 10:10 < ZChris13> You can reach over monsters... 10:10 < ZChris13> can't you? 10:10 <+|amethyst> Jevouse: $(DEPS): %.d: %.cc , %.o: %.cc %.d .cflags | $(GENERATED_HEADERS) , and a few related rules, to make it rebuild if the .d file is missing or out of date 10:10 < G-Flex> ZChris13: unreliably 10:11 < G-Flex> sometimes you hit the monster in between 10:11 < G-Flex> (and sometimes you might just fail, but don't quote me on that) 10:11 < ZChris13> Cool 10:11 < Jevouse> ah 10:13 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: I'm going to re-open 5075, mark 5163 as a clone of it, then close it 10:14 < Jevouse> ZChris13: you can 10:14 < Jevouse> ZChris13: you sometimes get blocked by the monster in the LoF though 10:14 ۰۰-- evilmike [~evilmike@207.6.121.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16 < Jevouse> not sure if that applies to monsters using it through other monsters 10:17 < Jevouse> which can be really annoying 10:18 < Jevouse> you essentially have no way of hitting him now that true smite has been removed 10:18 < ZChris13> what? 10:18 < ZChris13> You can still smite through other monsters 10:18 < G-Flex> yes 10:18 < G-Flex> if you couldn't, it wouldn't be smiting 10:18 < ZChris13> Jevouse: What are you smoking 10:19 < Jevouse> oh whoops 10:20 < Jevouse> ZChris13: mixing things up, my bad 10:20 < Jevouse> still , its annoying since smite is high level 10:20 < ZChris13> What are you smoking 10:20 < ZChris13> 'Smite isn't a spell 10:20 < Jevouse> it is not 10:20 < ZChris13> It comes in a lvl 4 spell 10:20 < ZChris13> and a lvl 9 spell 10:20 < ZChris13> and a beogh ability 10:21 < ZChris13> but that's it 10:21 < Jevouse> eh, what's the lvl 4 spell 10:21 < G-Flex> or the level 9 spell, for that matter 10:21 < G-Flex> there are a few smite-targeted spells 10:22 < G-Flex> the cloud spells, for instance 10:22 < G-Flex> airstrike I guess 10:22 < G-Flex> and fire storm 10:22 < G-Flex> LRD maybe? and maybe some others 10:22 < Jevouse> all pretty high level 10:22 < Jevouse> gnolls with spears on D;2 10:22 < Jevouse> lol 10:22 < G-Flex> level 4 isn't "pretty high level" 10:22 < HangedMan> rod of smiting has smiting as a level 4 spell 10:22 < Jevouse> well, either high level or rare 10:23 < Jevouse> i've never gotten a rod of smiting before 10:23 < Jevouse> its still annoying for low levels chars 10:25 < DrPraetor> I think this should be in ##crawl.... 10:25 < G-Flex> yes, probably 10:25 < DrPraetor> Unless you're suggesting adding more spells like Airstrike (which is what I think you're thinking of, it's 4th level and basically the same as smite). 10:25 < Jevouse> no, i'm asking about the code behaviour for monster reaching 10:26 < DrPraetor> I do think that the monsters have a to-hit penalty for trying to stab through eachother, yes. 10:26 < Jevouse> they don't seem to stab each other, though 10:27 < Jevouse> like i said, players can stab through a monster, but they will hit the monster in the line of fire 10:27 < Jevouse> sometimes 10:27 < Jevouse> having a to-hit penalty is not the same 10:27 < G-Flex> that's not really an analogous situation 10:27 < Jevouse> really? do monsters have eyes on teh back of their heads? 10:27 < G-Flex> monsters are allied with each other 10:27 < Jevouse> i can sometimes stab my summons too 10:27 < G-Flex> you should compare monster reaching to you reaching through your allies 10:27 < G-Flex> you do? 10:28 < G-Flex> do you sometimes accidentally hit your own allies? 10:28 < G-Flex> that sounds unlikely, but I can't verify that it's not the case 10:28 < Jevouse> they are allied with each other doesn't mean they magically have eyes on the back of their heads to see whether or not they're going to get stabbed by their incompetent friend 10:29 < Jevouse> and i certainly don't want to stab the guy in front, but i do anyway, sometimes 10:29 < G-Flex> this is getting a little silly 10:30 < G-Flex> I have ceased wanting to bother 10:32 ۰۰-- joosa [~joosa@83.145.237.222] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37 < DrPraetor> I'd agree with Jeyouse that's there's no reason for monster-monster to be assymetric with player-summon. 10:38 < DrPraetor> In this case. 10:39 < G-Flex> sure 10:40 < G-Flex> if it is asymmetric 10:40 < Jevouse> are all monsters allied anyway? 10:41 < G-Flex> usually 10:41 < G-Flex> in effect 10:41 < Jevouse> like i'm sure an angel would go after a demon 10:41 < G-Flex> I don't think they actually do 10:42 < Jevouse> that goes against alignment so hard 10:42 < G-Flex> "alignment"? 10:42 < Jevouse> yes, alignment 10:43 ۰۰-- DrPraetor [~kvirc@pool-96-252-87-131.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:53 < ZChris13> get out of here 10:53 < ZChris13> They're all aligned with zot 10:55 ۰۰-- eeviac_ [4825f934@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.37.249.52] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55 < Jevouse> except that angels become neutral when you're with one of the three good gods 10:55 < eeviac_> hey, is this where we should report crashes? 10:56 < ZChris13> Sort of? 10:56 < G-Flex> rax: people are still getting crashes on cao apparently, or something 10:56 < G-Flex> I don't know the details 10:56 < eeviac_> here's my crash logs 10:56 < eeviac_> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/eeviac/crash-eeviac-20120103-153346.txt 10:56 < eeviac_> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/eeviac/crash-recursive-eeviac-20120103-153346.txt 10:57 < eeviac_> crashed immediately on entering vault, then crashed again when I loaded the game this morning 10:59 <@rax> Looks like there is some kind of bug, unfortunately I don't know what if anything I can do 10:59 <@rax> Is this 0.9 or trunk? 11:00 <@rax> I mean obviously I can move the save aside but I don't think I can recover the game :( 11:00 < eeviac_> it's trunk 11:01 < eeviac_> there aren't back up saves? 11:01 <@rax> Well your game process is still running 11:01 <+MarvinPA> Jevouse: normally you have a 50% chance of hitting the monster that's in the way if you try and reach through a monster, but if it's friendly that gets turned into just a "failed to reach" 11:01 <+MarvinPA> it's presumed that your allies are sensible enough to get out of your way 11:01 < Jevouse> MarvinPA: and for monster reaching? 11:01 < Henzell> m1nced the Miscreant (L3 SpAs) (D:3) 11:02 < Henzell> MehPlusRawr the Skirmisher (L4 OpAK) (Abyss) 11:02 <@rax> eeviac_: I've done what I can do aside from just nuking it, can you try again please? 11:02 < eeviac_> ok 11:02 <@rax> The game tries to save when it crashes and hopes to be recoverable, but it doesn't always succeed 11:02 <@rax> And trunk games in particular can have problems that are harder to recover from, or impossible, because it's still in testing 11:03 <+MarvinPA> not sure, possibly monsters can just reach through other monsters because they're cheaters 11:03 < eeviac_> no dice, same assert crash :( 11:03 < Jevouse> cheaters :( 11:03 <@rax> Sorry :( I'll save the save file and maybe someone will be able to fix a bug based on it, but that's about all I can do from here 11:04 <@rax> ...wait where the heck do trunk saves live again 11:04 < eeviac_> man, this dude was gonna be my second win, I was sure of it 11:04 < Jevouse> MarvinPA: all monsters aren't allied to each other, right? like an angel will go for a demon on sight 11:04 < eeviac_> Xom'd 11:04 <+MarvinPA> monsters don't fight each other based on holiness 11:04 < eeviac_> oh well thanks for the help 11:04 < Jevouse> ah, so opposite ends of the spectrum will fight each other? thanks 11:05 <+MarvinPA> huh? 11:05 < ZChris13> no 11:05 < ZChris13> he said they don't 11:05 < ZChris13> Jevouse: What are you smoking 11:05 < G-Flex> that's the opposite of what he said 11:05 <+MarvinPA> all monsters are united in their hatred of the player 11:05 < Jevouse> do they fight in any circumstances 11:05 < Jevouse> bah 11:06 <+MarvinPA> unless you turn them neutral of friendly by some means 11:06 <+MarvinPA> or* 11:06 < G-Flex> or indifferent 11:06 <+|amethyst> rax: (haven't left yet, but am in about 5 minutes) it seems to be happening when you get a log message 11:06 < G-Flex> or peaceful 11:06 < eeviac_> wouldn't it be nice if they did though 11:06 < G-Flex> I still have no idea of the differences between all those 11:06 < Jevouse> inconsistent 11:06 <+|amethyst> rax: it was working fine, then I killed ijyb 11:07 <@rax> |amethyst: Unfortunately I don't have time to debug trunk bugs right now, I am at work 11:07 <+MarvinPA> G-Flex: those are flavours of neutral 11:07 <@rax> But there does seem to be somethign weird with milestones on trunk 11:07 <+|amethyst> rax: no problem... I should be at work too 11:07 < G-Flex> MarvinPA: no mechanical differences? 11:07 < ZChris13> Different flavor 11:08 < ZChris13> different mechanics, but still neutral 11:08 <+MarvinPA> there's plenty of differences, i just mean that "neutral" is a term that covers all of them in some way :P 11:08 < Jevouse> why would angels and demons work together to eat your adventurer ass 11:08 < G-Flex> oh okay 11:08 < G-Flex> Jevouse: that's inappropriate 11:08 <+MarvinPA> the orb of zot makes them 11:08 < eeviac_> a wizard did it 11:08 < ZChris13> The power of Zot 11:08 < ZChris13> Basically a wizard did it yeah 11:08 < G-Flex> they know you're the biggest threat to both of them at the time 11:08 <+MarvinPA> or insert other crazy flavour excuse here 11:08 < G-Flex> so they decide it's best to kill you first 11:09 < Jevouse> but if Zot is so powerful, how come if you convert to a good religion, the angels suddenly ignore you 11:09 < HangedMan> biggest threat to the social order 11:09 < eeviac_> a wizard did it 11:09 <+MarvinPA> the gods are powerful too! 11:09 < HangedMan> players just kill everybody all of the time 11:09 < HangedMan> why not team up against those bastards 11:10 < Jevouse> you're still the biggest antisocial psychopathic bastard out there 11:10 < HangedMan> exactlty 11:13 ۰۰-- eeviac_ [4825f934@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.37.249.52] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:17 ۰۰-- DrPraetor [~kvirc@pool-96-252-87-131.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21 ۰۰-- MarvinPA [~MarvinPA@85.210.96.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:26 < ZChris13> uh oh can somebody tell me if this is a bug 11:26 < ZChris13> Skill Level Train Apt 11:26 < ZChris13> Fighting 27 28% -2 11:27 < ZChris13> After a potion of experience 11:32 < Cheibriados> allies will animate corpses (hostile) when you are worshipping fedhas (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5166) by st 11:33 < ZChris13> did you get renamed? 11:33 < ZChris13> Who are you, Cheibriados 11:34 < Jevouse> report bot 11:35 < Henzell> qtip the Farming Petrodigitator (L27 DsEE) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed on turn 246717. (Coc:2) 11:35 < ZChris13> what happened to Ash? 11:35 < Jevouse> chained 11:46 < chrisoelmueller> !seen ashenz* 11:46 < Henzell> Sorry chrisoelmueller, I haven't seen ashenz. 11:46 < chrisoelmueller> !seen ashenzari 11:46 < Henzell> I last saw Ashenzari at Thu Dec 8 05:33:38 2011 UTC (3w 5d 11h 12m 40s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 260 seconds. 11:49 < DrPraetor> ZChris13: Yeah, that looks like a bug. Training skills at level 27 via exp potions should be disabled. 11:49 < ZChris13> DrPraetor: no, I mastered fighting from a !exp 11:49 <+|amethyst> ZChris13: chei is my copy of ashenzari with a few extra commands 11:49 < ZChris13> and it kept training 11:49 < ZChris13> oh? 11:49 < ZChris13> Ash had commands? 11:49 <+|amethyst> s/extra // :) 11:50 < DrPraetor> |amethyst: Is Chei also running on a much slower processor? 11:50 <+|amethyst> probably, yes 11:50 * DrPraetor does a little drumroll. 11:51 <+|amethyst> wiki reporting isn't working; I'm waiting to hear back from doy or Napkin about that 11:52 <+|amethyst> and, while the logs are saved, they're not publically available 11:56 ۰۰-- DrPraetor [~kvirc@pool-96-252-87-131.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:57 < CIA-112> dolorous * r0545797f5875 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Typo fix. 12:03 ۰۰-- MarvinPA [~MarvinPA@85.210.96.109] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v MarvinPA] by ChanServ 12:42 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42 < Cheibriados2> Cheibriados2: 12:42 <+|amethyst> err, it wasn't supposed to do that :) 12:43 < Jevouse> |amethyst: cloning gods since 1984 12:44 <+|amethyst> %git :/make 12:44 < Cheibriados> Michael Gagno * ra945ecc47578: Add a message for random Abyss teleports. (2 days ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 12:44 < Cheibriados2> Jesse Luehrs * r689ea70b32b1: make pan_disco_hall more disco-y (1 year, 4 months ago, 1 file, 57+ 3-) 12:44 <+|amethyst> hrm 12:44 <+|amethyst> that's odd 12:44 < Jevouse> %git :/makefile 12:44 < Cheibriados> Adam Borowski * ra67883206ac7: Fix makefile hacks that caused incomplete cleans. (8 days ago, 2 files, 19+ 25-) 12:44 < Cheibriados2> Steven Noonan * r1c5a23c37d24: makefile: add configurable system SQLite and Lua paths (1 year, 6 months ago, 1 file, 12+ 11-) 12:45 < Jevouse> specific words only eh 12:45 <+|amethyst> %git 12:45 < Cheibriados> David Lawrence Ramsey * r0545797f5875: Typo fix. (51 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 12:45 < Cheibriados2> David Lawrence Ramsey * r0545797f5875: Typo fix. (51 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 12:45 <+|amethyst> %git HEAD^ 12:45 < Cheibriados> Adam Borowski * ra629cc6fc16e: Deal with missing dependency files. (4 hours ago, 1 file, 9+ 15-) 12:45 < Cheibriados2> Adam Borowski * ra629cc6fc16e: Deal with missing dependency files. (4 hours ago, 1 file, 9+ 15-) 12:45 <+|amethyst> oh, that one didn't have the word "make" 12:46 <+|amethyst> chei2 has an older version of git 12:46 <+|amethyst> and I guess there :/foo is searching subject only, not body 12:46 <+|amethyst> wonder why the mailmap isn't working 12:49 <+|amethyst> oh, it's missing some entries 12:50 ۰۰-- Pacra [~Pacra@c-68-44-35-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50 < Cheibriados2> Pacra: 12:50 <+|amethyst> Pacra: sorry 12:50 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52 <+|amethyst> hm, the git-hooks/crawl-ref-cia script doesn't have the mappings for kilobyte, dolorous, and maybe others 12:52 <+|amethyst> and that's what I based the .mailmap on 12:56 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56 < Cheibriados2> Cheibriados2: 12:57 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57 < Jevouse> oh jolly good 12:57 < Jevouse> * as TSO in 3 levels 12:57 < Jevouse> finaaally 12:57 < ZChris13> why are you saying that here 12:59 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59 < Cheibriados2> Cheibriados2: 13:00 <+|amethyst> hm, newer git binaries don't work on that server, glibc is too old 13:01 <+|amethyst> I didn't want to have to build it but I guess I do 13:04 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:05 < Cheibriados2> Cheibriados2: 13:05 ۰۰-- |amethyst [~neil@96-29-177-60.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left ##crawl-dev [] --- Log closed Tue Jan 03 13:05:45 2012 --- Log opened Tue Jan 03 13:05:49 2012 13:05 ۰۰-- |amethyst [~neil@96-29-177-60.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:05 ۰۰-- Irssi: ##crawl-dev: Total of 68 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 9 voices, 57 normal] 13:05 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v |amethyst] by ChanServ 13:05 < Cheibriados2> |amethyst: 13:05 ۰۰-- Irssi: Join to ##crawl-dev was synced in 1 secs 13:06 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09 < Jevouse> is the new zin buff patch in trunk? 13:09 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09 < Cheibriados2> Cheibriados2: 13:10 <+MarvinPA> which zin patch? 13:10 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10 < Jevouse> The one with new recite 13:10 <+MarvinPA> oh 13:10 <+MarvinPA> that's been in for ages, yeah :P 13:11 < Jevouse> well, has the unfinished stuff been worked on since the last comment? 13:12 < Eronarn> what do you mean 13:12 <+MarvinPA> which unfinished stuff? 13:12 < Jevouse> (0016471) 13:12 < Jevouse> Eronarn (updater) 13:12 < Jevouse> 2012-01-01 05:23 13:12 < Jevouse> Plenty of recite stuff left to be fixed, but the initial add is done. 13:13 < Eronarn> what i meant by that is that there's no reason to keep the original issue open 13:13 < Eronarn> it's been in for quite some time 13:13 < Jevouse> yeah, so is recite fixed now? 13:13 <+MarvinPA> it has been since like 0.8 or something, yes 13:13 < Eronarn> it has few bugs, but it has some design issues still 13:13 < Eronarn> someone should tweak it further 13:14 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14 < Jevouse> eronarn: what design issues 13:14 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@pool-49-112.ptcomm.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15 < Jevouse> Priest still sucking it early game? 13:19 < Eronarn> Jevouse: that; it locking you out of doing stuff for a while; no interaction with allies (was originally intended to do this); some of the effects (like blindness) need work; could use more effects; issues with it killing evil stuff too easily early on 13:20 < Jevouse> ugh 13:21 < Jevouse> is dolorous working on this? 13:21 < Eronarn> i have been thinking that maybe it shuld just give you silence 13:21 < Eronarn> when you activate it 13:21 < Eronarn> but that you can then still fight 13:21 <+MarvinPA> i keep meaning to extend blindness to work as a temporary effect too 13:21 < Eronarn> it seems like a good way to address the non-interactiveness 13:21 < Eronarn> and the spammy nature of it too 13:21 <+MarvinPA> Jevouse: not as far as i know, none of it is particularly urgent 13:22 <+MarvinPA> it works fine and is significantly improved 13:22 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22 < Eronarn> could even spread it over a random number of turns or something 13:22 < Eronarn> like 3-7 13:22 <+MarvinPA> certainly not perfect but nothing is 13:22 < Eronarn> it'd also make monster recite MUCH easier to implement usefully 13:23 <+MarvinPA> Eronarn: that could work, yeah 13:23 < Eronarn> since it wouldn't actually prevent them from doing anything other than casting for a period of time 13:23 < Jevouse> uh oh ...monster recite 13:23 < Jevouse> Monster Priests of Zin? 13:23 < Eronarn> of course 13:23 <+MarvinPA> i think another idea mentioned somewhere was to remove the delay entirely and lengthen the cooldown instead which could also work 13:23 <+|amethyst> hm, found the reason Chei was responding to joins (it started appearing with the newer version of Bot::BasicBot on the server), but I'm not sure what's triggering it exactly 13:23 < Jevouse> cool 13:23 < Eronarn> MarvinPA: well, it uses breath cooldown, that is pretty long 13:24 <+MarvinPA> also the random recite passages are far too awesome to lose 13:25 <+MarvinPA> and 'silencing' you for the duration but letting you act normally otherwise sounds more interesting to me, anyway 13:25 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25 <+|amethyst> there we go 13:25 < Jevouse> so you can 13:25 < Jevouse> recite more when you're silenced, but not cast spells 13:26 < Jevouse> no wait, you can't recite either 13:26 <+MarvinPA> what? 13:27 < Jevouse> i was thinking maybe to split recite up into sermons and parables 13:27 < Eronarn> no 13:27 < Jevouse> longer cooldown silence more harmful effects and minor cooldown no silence minor effects 13:27 <+MarvinPA> it has enough different options already with the multiple books, really 13:27 < Eronarn> MarvinPA: probably should try it out after .10; it should be a pretty easy change (just add dur_reciting and make it work like silence). do it when you add lava orcs 13:27 <+MarvinPA> hah 13:28 < ZChris13> Lava orcs! 13:28 <+MarvinPA> i'll add lava orcs when you overhaul tension, sure :P 13:28 < ZChris13> Tension! 13:28 <+MarvinPA> but yeah, i'll make a note of that for recite, it does sound fun 13:28 < Eronarn> MarvinPA: i updated lava orcs, they should be much better now even without tension fixes 13:28 < Eronarn> they use raw tension, weighted by xl, sqrt'd 13:28 < ZChris13> Is it a better metric? 13:29 < Eronarn> i think so 13:29 < ZChris13> Is it ready for some playtesting? 13:29 < Eronarn> yeah 13:29 < Eronarn> i'm not going to put it up on my server until after .10 thoguh 13:29 < ZChris13> aw 13:30 ۰۰-- Cheibriados [~Cheibriad@96-29-177-60.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34 < Jevouse> eh, that's weird 13:34 < Jevouse> so large creatures can use trident as a weapon but ogres/trolls can't start with ankuses? 13:36 <+MarvinPA> ankuses don't exist, mostly 13:36 <+MarvinPA> they were removed except not quite 13:37 < Eronarn> fully remove ankuses, re-add katanas 13:37 < Eronarn> also re-add mountain dwarves 13:37 <+MarvinPA> nope 13:37 <+MarvinPA> and nope 13:38 <+MarvinPA> plus there is a katana 13:38 ۰۰-- Cheibriados2 [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38 < ZChris13> Cutlasses "exist" too in that sense. 13:38 ۰۰-- Cheibriados [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39 <+|amethyst> %git :/makefile 13:39 < Cheibriados> kilobyte * ra67883206ac7: Fix makefile hacks that caused incomplete cleans. (8 days ago, 2 files, 19+ 25-) 13:39 <+|amethyst> woot 13:39 <+|amethyst> just need to rebuild monster-trunk 13:40 ۰۰-- jeanjacques [~jejacques@port-92-200-70-80.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 13:44 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: hm, a fresh pull seems to have problems building the rltiles/ stuff (or, rather, doesn't appear to try), doing make -C crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source V=1 DEBUG= TILES= NO_LUA_BINDINGS=y 13:48 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: it works fine in my usual source directory, even after a make clean 13:49 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: I did encounter an error on the first build (due to missing lua), so maybe that had something to do with it 13:54 < Jevouse> well, whatever replaced ankuses 13:54 * SamB ponders recoloring ringmail to be like leather armour 13:54 <+MarvinPA> nothing replaced ankuses 13:55 < Jevouse> let trolls/ogres/centaurs use flails as starting 13:55 <+|amethyst> kilobyte: hmm, and version.o isn't being built 13:55 <+SamB> |amethyst: odd 13:56 <+MarvinPA> starting some races with an even slower weapon sounds like a bad idea 13:56 * SamB <3 ccache, since it lets him run "make clean" with impunity 13:56 < HangedMan> what's preventing the rolling boulder beetles from getting in? 13:56 * SamB does not love having rltiles rebuild when he does this 13:57 * SamB forgot that make clean would screw up the cflags ... 13:57 < Jevouse> MarvinPA: then make ankuses faster and less damaging, they're practically faster flails as it is now. 13:57 * SamB runs ./compile.sh clean instead 13:57 <+MarvinPA> that's why they were removed 13:57 < Pacra> <|amethyst> Pacra: sorry 13:57 < Pacra> hmm? 13:58 <+MarvinPA> HangedMan: i was waiting to see if mumra would comment on my comments - at the moment none of the vaults seem to work and i wouldn't be able to fix that 13:58 <+|amethyst> Pacra: a bug in Cheibriados2 made it send you an empty in-channel message on join 13:58 < HangedMan> ah 13:58 < Jevouse> mace: 3,8,14 compared to trident 3,9,130 with reaching 13:58 <+MarvinPA> he's not been around for a while though 13:58 <+|amethyst> Pacra: that was my fault 13:58 <+SamB> |amethyst: what was the commit where you made .ds get pulled in for cleans? 13:58 < HangedMan> grr 13:58 < Pacra> no prob. 13:58 <+MarvinPA> could perhaps merge them without the vaults, they just need some messaging fixes other than that iirc 13:59 <+|amethyst> %git :/moxian 13:59 < Cheibriados> |amethyst * rf82d76d3c7be: Always include .d files in Makefile (moxian). (2 weeks ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13:59 <+|amethyst> SamB: that one ^^ 13:59 <+MarvinPA> i have some other mumra branches checked out locally i think, too 14:00 <+MarvinPA> ah yeah, demigods is the other one 14:00 < Jevouse> MarvinPA: don't you think M&F could use a little buff in that regard 14:01 <+MarvinPA> not particularly 14:01 <+MarvinPA> tridents are fighter/gladiator only 14:01 <+MarvinPA> spears are the normal comparison 14:01 < syllogism> what's the correct syntax for spawning a specific mimic with &M 14:01 <+MarvinPA> "item mimic" or "feature mimic" 14:02 <+MarvinPA> then you get some menus to choose exactly what it mimics 14:02 < Jevouse> MarvinPA: yes, but fighter/gladiator only have mace option 14:02 < syllogism> oh never mind, it's just that &M mimic and THEN giving it the type doesnt work 14:02 < syllogism> despite it asking for the feature type 14:03 <+|amethyst> &M mimic does a feature mimic 14:03 <+|amethyst> it works for me 14:03 <+|amethyst> &Mmimic enter_shop general 14:04 < syllogism> oh, was trying shop_mimic and such 14:08 <+|amethyst> %??adder 14:08 < Cheibriados> adder (S) | Speed: 13 (swim: 60%) | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 1/15 | Damage: 5(poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(8), drown | XP: 13. 14:08 <+|amethyst> %??ball python 14:08 < Cheibriados> ball python (S) | Speed: 12 (swim: 60%) | HD: 1 | Health: 2-5 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Damage: 2, 3(constrict)(crush) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(1), drown | XP: 1. 14:10 <+|amethyst> and logs are up, at http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ 14:11 <+|amethyst> though there's currently only a couple of hours of logs, with much missing, because of all the disconnecting and reconnecting 14:11 <+MarvinPA> nice 14:12 <+|amethyst> I have more complete logs from my IRC client 14:13 <+|amethyst> I guess I could put those there 14:13 <+|amethyst> the formatting is slightly different, but not much 14:15 ۰۰-- Cheibriados [~Cheibriad@server1.pikicentral.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15 < syllogism> oh you can enter shop mimics too, that's nice 14:15 * SamB realizes that there WAS a point to moxian's change: if those weren't the *only* goals, there would still be trouble. 14:16 < syllogism> how much of this was intended 14:16 <+|amethyst> syllogism: not intended 14:16 <+MarvinPA> none, i'm pretty sure 14:16 <+|amethyst> syllogism: in fact you can get 16 runes that way... or crash your game 14:16 <+|amethyst> I don't know if anyone's actually managed to do it in non-wizmode 14:17 <+|amethyst> you can likewise pick up item mimics 13:18:42 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:42 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 13:19:14 c-blink onto item mimic for instant happiness 13:20:03 that's a little TOO perfect 13:20:31 <|amethyst> okay, I now have logs going back to 1 December at http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ 13:21:01 * SamB recently-ish noticed that a certain Xom vault contains a ton of loot mimics 13:21:07 <|amethyst> the format changes abruptly as of a few minutes ago 13:21:18 <|amethyst> but only slightly 13:21:39 * SamB thinks that might be because the stuff is unreachable anyway? 13:22:02 yes SamB 13:22:10 <|amethyst> wasn't it reachable with corrupt at one point? 13:22:14 <|amethyst> not anymore afaik 13:22:20 it still is 13:22:21 Jevouse: well, nigh unreachable anyway 13:22:23 <|amethyst> oh 13:22:30 SamB: Xom is a tease 13:22:31 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: how does that work? 13:22:31 you have to corrupt or somehow get some monsters inside it 13:22:39 and then use a swap card to get in 13:22:42 <|amethyst> aha 13:22:47 i was thinking i had a holy grail 13:23:09 randarts galore 13:23:10 i think you can get monsters inside by making water and evaporating it repeatedly with fedhas too, for example 13:23:12 but then you realized it was in the frenchies' castle? 13:23:25 and xom is the frenchie thumbing his nose at me 13:23:27 oh, though probably not anymore if you can't smite-target sunlight through walls 13:23:40 i was really sad 13:23:42 <|amethyst> I think if you can do that, then cblink onto the "loot", and remember never to drop it (or never step off the square if you do), you should deserve the loot :) 13:23:50 <|amethyst> not really, but 13:23:55 heh 13:24:02 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:12 i'm always tempted to just explain how to get inside with corruption and swap and so on when it's mentioned on the tavern 13:24:15 what if the loot turns out to be stackable? 13:24:15 but not mention that they're mimics 13:24:21 could your whole pile turn into mimics? 13:24:34 haha, good question 13:24:35 <|amethyst> are there ammo mimics? 13:24:37 <|amethyst> hm 13:24:42 maybe not 13:24:57 <|amethyst> doing science 13:25:04 or potion, or scroll, or food? 13:25:18 by the way, can someone make it so orc:4 shops don't become mimics for me? I would have put that in the vaults had I known it would happen 13:25:29 <|amethyst> potion is possible 13:26:05 <|amethyst> they don't stack 13:26:09 ah 13:26:13 <|amethyst> e - a potion of decay (4 aum) 13:26:16 <|amethyst> f - 12 potions of decay (48 aum) 13:26:32 should probably reveal at that point? 13:26:38 if they can find a square to inhabit 13:26:55 <|amethyst> they should probably reveal the moment you try to pick them up 13:27:13 well, the moment you land on their square to prevent you entering shops/staircases, surely? 13:27:14 wouldn't it be more fun if they sometimes did it a bit later on? 13:27:22 well, for features is different 13:27:36 I assume they have different code 13:27:38 <|amethyst> what MarvinPA said, 13:27:43 <|amethyst> also, silver rune mimic 13:28:09 okay, runes are a case of an item mimic that you'd not want the player picking up, true 13:28:12 rune mimics are only placed by faults? 13:28:14 <|amethyst> not that getting two silver runes is a problem, but if you're speedrunning that can cut in half the amount of V:8 you have to explore 13:28:39 ?? speedrun 13:28:39 speedrun[1/2]: In most games: a game finished in exceptionally little clock time. In roguelikes typically: a game finished in exceptionally few turns. The average win takes about 144k turns in 15h26min. (3-rune wins average 121k turns in 12h). 13:28:39 <|amethyst> placed only by vaults, picked up only by faults :) 13:28:53 who is THE speedrunner 13:29:08 <|amethyst> !lg * won min=turns 13:29:12 does the v:8 rune mimic make two prize quadrants generate? 13:29:16 6267. hyperbolic the Severer (L20 DDBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-09-20, with 4733437 points after 13435 turns and 3:03:41. 13:29:20 if not you can still always tell which quadrant has the rune anyway 13:29:24 <|amethyst> !lg * won min=dur 13:29:29 6267. cashybrid the Eviscerator (L22 FeBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-04-05, with 1295305 points after 91333 turns and 1:05:11. 13:29:32 which is really bad :/ 13:29:41 13435?? 13:29:43 holy smokes! 13:30:08 <|amethyst> cashybrid is a bot? 13:30:12 too bad it won't quite let you apportate an item mimic 13:30:17 just berserk and tab lol 13:30:26 <|amethyst> or bot-assisted? 13:30:28 bot-human hybrid, hence the name :P 13:30:29 you can't apport item mimics. 13:30:32 !lg * won min=dur -2 13:30:36 It stops you 13:30:36 6266. 78291 the Backstabber (L15 SpEn), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-28, with 3765072 points after 16625 turns and 1:11:51. 13:30:42 Or I mean they pop up next to you 13:30:43 that's what I said 13:30:55 basically used autorobin to get through early game and various easy areas and then casmith789 took over for the rest, i think 13:31:26 I had a series of force_mores 13:31:40 where I took over. eg vs hydras, rock worms, oklobs, etc 13:31:41 78291 zotwaltzing to D:27? 13:31:45 level 15 wow 13:31:50 but botted a lot of it 13:32:10 you can get to zot:0 with a feature mimic and it won't crash 13:32:21 and yeah, I did zot and the hard areas like v:8 and whenever hard uniques happened 13:32:31 <|amethyst> syllogism: do the downstairs take you to Zot:1, or crash? 13:32:33 i think it crashes when you go upstairs from level 0 of a branch though 13:32:42 or maybe when you go upstairs from -1 13:32:42 up stairs take me to zot:-1 which is nice 13:32:53 casmith789: do you know if 78291 did it with a bot too 13:32:59 he did not 13:33:01 mine was the only bot win 13:33:02 yes, -2 is crash 13:33:15 crazy fast 13:33:17 lol 13:33:28 down crash too 13:33:28 only 6 minutes slower than your bot assist 13:33:40 a lot fewer turns though :) 13:33:56 what's the syntax for max rune win? 13:34:02 !lg * won max=nrune 13:34:02 6267. 78291 the Farming Infernalist (L27 NaFE), worshipper of Zin, escaped with the Orb and 267 runes on 2010-05-18, with 6222453 points after 841428 turns and 79:07:56. 13:34:33 ah, i mean, fastest 15 runers 13:34:39 not the most rune farmed 13:34:44 !lg * won urune=15 min=dur 13:34:44 1079. 78291 the Enchanter (L23 SpEn), worshipper of Jiyva, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-08-01, with 33336361 points after 43553 turns and 3:53:59. 13:34:51 !lg * won urune=15 min=turn 13:34:51 1079. hyperbolic the Petrodigitator (L20 DDEE), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2011-03-02, with 40764447 points after 35317 turns and 7:29:40. 13:35:09 i'm in awe 13:35:10 lol 13:35:16 is 78291 really an AI or something 13:36:06 no :p 13:36:53 does he take disciples 13:36:54 he's a hive mind 13:37:03 78291 refers to the number of people in it 13:37:05 chuck norris lol 13:37:22 * SamB wishes that kdiff3 would *say* something when it completed a merge automatically, without having to bring up its UI... 13:38:12 do all branches have sanity checks for depth 13:38:21 a sad day 13:38:33 what's a sad day? 13:38:50 that such checks are now present 13:39:50 !lm * place=elf:38 13:39:50 1. [2008-12-18] evktalo the Shatterer (L17 MiPa) killed Boris on turn 46521. (Elf:38) 13:43:28 hm, "no_mimic any shop" doesn't seem to work, am i getting the syntax wrong here? 13:44:02 Locked out (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5167) by jhed 13:44:02 doesn't seem to be documented other than for items 13:46:56 heh, that wizmode tutorial bug is still existent 13:47:37 oh nevermind there aren't sanity checks for every branch 13:49:05 or swamp doesn't crash until swamp:12, is that crash due to some other reason though 13:51:23 -!- agolden has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:08 -!- Jevouse has quit [] 14:16:34 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:53 -!- Pingas_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:45:45 -!- Pingas_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:45:50 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:45:53 hi 14:45:57 !seen evilmike 14:45:57 I last saw evilmike at Tue Jan 3 15:14:36 2012 UTC (5h 31m 21s ago) quitting with message Read error: Connection reset by peer. 14:49:01 !tell evilmike I support your idea of backloading Pan. However, I'm not a panner. Would you discuss with suspects like 1kb and elliptic etc.? 14:49:01 dpeg: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 14:50:26 -!- Pingas_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:02:02 !seen elliptic 15:02:04 I last saw elliptic at Sun Jan 1 13:20:00 2012 UTC (2d 7h 42m 3s ago) quitting with message Quit: Leaving. 15:07:11 03dolorous * r8e5f69c260c4 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Fix Mantis 5166. 15:19:17 nogglebeak2 the Eclecticist (L10 DrFE) ASSERT(feat < NUM_FEATURES) in 'feature.cc' at line 24 failed on turn 3136. (Abyss) 15:30:14 03dolorous * ree18ef1544d4 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Shorten conduct description. 15:34:00 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:24 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 15:51:35 evil! mike!! 15:51:40 hello 15:51:40 evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:53:32 re: the message about making pan more "back loaded", I think the important thing is to base the chances on how long it should normally take to get all 4 unique levels 15:54:37 it's not an urgent thing though, it's just some thought I had about how the branch sort of progresses in the opposite way of normal branches 15:54:57 yes, just wanted to give support 16:03:41 34 or 40 levels I'd say 16:09:05 when I looked through a bunch of my recent logs, I found 30-40 to be in the normal range. That includes escaping though, which is a couple of extra levels after the last unique one 16:11:32 I used to love pan but I don't like it much now 16:11:50 <|amethyst> dpeg: could you set the topic to point to the logs at http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ ? 16:12:13 <|amethyst> hm 16:12:17 |amethyst: no, I cannot 16:12:19 !seen elly 16:12:20 I last saw elly at Sun Jan 1 02:26:00 2012 UTC (2d 19h 46m 20s ago) saying please see ??language :P on ##crawl. 16:12:22 !seen due 16:12:23 I last saw due at Tue Jan 3 08:02:08 2012 UTC (14h 10m 15s ago) saying delicious swine? on ##crawl-dev. 16:12:30 ^ they can :) 16:12:33 <|amethyst> oh, I thought the @ meant you could 16:12:50 well, I may have the rights but I have no idea what to type :| 16:12:54 <|amethyst> heh 16:12:56 -!- dpeg is now known as dumpeg 16:13:42 I think it should be a set number of levels, but once you enter you cannot exit until the final level 16:13:49 I somehwat like pan, except for slogging through endless normal levels trying to get the last unique one, which can take a while thanks to how its set up 16:14:19 <|amethyst> !tell due New ##crawl-dev logs are at http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ ; if you could point the /topic to them it would be much appreciated. Thanks. 16:14:20 |amethyst: OK, I'll let due know. 16:15:24 i don't recall ever seeing 30 pan levels in one 15-rune game... 16:15:24 <|amethyst> hm, need to tell the server they're text/plain 16:15:41 the main point of it that I see was that you were trapped there for a long time and couldn't resupply etc, but that's sort of lost now 16:16:36 well, it's never really been like that.. the abyss shortcut was always a quick way out, and people dont tend to run out of resources in the abyss 16:17:04 I mean some people do, but usually not when they've prepared for pandemonium 16:17:21 well you're right about the abyss shortcut 16:23:47 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:56 I've been thinking about spell diversity. Do we agree that reducing caster flexibility is good? (I am not sure here, question is not rhethorical.) 16:24:24 Anyway, last time on the forum everything focused on having school breadth cost more spell slots. 16:24:45 However, we could also much more simply have the number of used spell schools affect success. 16:25:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:44 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 16:25:48 spells like the clouds already being annoying to cast as is 16:26:05 -!- moxian has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:38 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:55 HangedMan: obviously, multi-school spells have to be revisited 16:27:59 * dumpeg sighs 16:28:06 I suspect that reducing the number of spells you can memorize (either by reducing overall spell slots or by making spells cost more slots) probably won't work that well 16:28:40 evilmike: yes, I agree. I think having a flat tax on success is easier to get working. 16:28:41 the way spells are in crawl, you usually want to get the same core group of spells, and then your extra slots get to be filled with more interesting stuff 16:28:52 so, less slots just means even narrower builds 16:29:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:24 whereas with success penalty this just means you need Tloc 6 instead of Tloc 3, say, for a fullish set 16:29:56 actually 16:30:05 we're not +t, so anyone can change the topic 16:30:39 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:44 -!- evilmike changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 16:31:26 <|amethyst> !tell due Never mind, Zannick pointed out that the channel is -t and evilmike added the link. Thanks anyway, though. 16:31:26 |amethyst: OK, I'll let due know. 16:31:35 ;) 16:38:11 I cant say I have much of a problem with how spells work in crawl to be honest. Is the issue being raised here to do with how some casters can just pick up any spell they want? 16:39:20 that certainly applies to deep elf casters. For hybrid builds I tend to pick a couple of schools and stick with them though. Usually charms and tloc, often necromancy, sometimes conjurations. But usually I'll only pick 3 or so and devote the rest of my xp to melee 16:42:07 evilmike: yes, that is the point 16:42:29 you can pick up nice little tool spells for essentially free 16:42:50 <|amethyst> what if Spc didn't help success rate? 16:43:54 that is another construction site 16:44:13 imo, Spc does a little too much and of what it does to success and power, rather little 16:44:16 -!- dumpeg is now known as dpeg 16:45:09 I think spellcasting skill is alright as it is... a lot of people overrate how useful it is 16:45:10 evilmike: backloading pan as in increased difficulty over time spent / levels seen, including not being able to stand right in cerebovs vault on entering pan? 16:45:30 training your spell schools is almost always a better idea than training spc. I'll get spc early for spell levels but other than that it's all schools 16:45:37 one exception is deep elves thanks to their huge apt 16:46:22 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 16:47:01 jeanjacques: the idea (which is new btw) is just for unique levels right now. As in, start off in pan with a low chance of getting unique levels, and have the chance go up as you continue. So you'd get all 4 within say 30-40 levels still, but they'd be more likely towards the end 16:47:35 I think it'd be nice if high caster flexibility were harder to achieve. So utility spells would be somewhat higher level - or middle level spells would never succeed based on spellcasting alone? But we certainly don't want to reduce the number of spell effects in the game, that'd be boring. 16:47:58 Previous was @dpeg, who has left it appears :) 16:48:06 i just did pan in 4,6k turns and 35 levels. that was with taking every portal right away though. 16:48:56 that kind of playstyle would not be affected much by a scaling unique chance 16:49:04 evilmike: Abyss rune finding works that way, yeah? If you've been in the abyss logn enough you find them all over the place until you pick one up? 16:49:33 find the vaults all over the place 16:49:43 jeanjacques: it's more to give pan a better sense of progression than to make it take longer (or be quicker) 16:50:25 evilmike: If you're going to do that, do it. Pan levels should progress from basic/easy levels, which become lower-weight as you go through them, to intermediate levels, to hard levels, to unique levels. 16:50:33 i just find it weird how when you first enter you are extremely likely to get unique levels, and then you'll have longer and longer stretches between them. Usually not that long, but it's a lot up to luck so it can vary hugely 16:51:02 DrPraetor: this isn't about making the levels themselves get harder over time. That wouldn't be a bad idea but it's a different topic 16:51:35 evilmike: one issue I have (in general) with many, small effects. It is hard to teach about them, and imo often better to go with fewer, stronger ones. 16:51:35 that makes sense 16:51:47 evilmike: Well, if you want to give it a progression, give it a progression, not a whole bunch of meaningless empty levels that you're guaranteed to slog through. 16:52:36 evilmike: I agree that the current (001000100001000001) distribution is weird, but changing it to (0000000011011) isn't meaningfully better, imo. 16:52:38 there was the idea of eliminating all the "popcorn" spawns in pan a while ago 16:52:51 DrPraetor: one thing at a time. What I'm talking about here is nice because it's very easy to achieve. A new formula and maybe 20 lines of code, really. What you're talking about is a bigger project, although not a bad one 16:52:54 no point in fighting 5s and 4s there 16:53:05 removing all 4s and 5s sounds pretty sensible 16:53:08 yeah there are too many crappy easy enemies 16:53:20 not just in Pan 16:53:24 I wouldn't remove all 4's and 5's but I wouldn't shed any tears if they are less common 16:53:28 popcorn is always annoying 16:53:34 I find them entertaining, actually. 16:53:40 I still want to make an early portal vault that is 5-based with some 4's as ogre-level threats 16:53:59 evilmike: removing from pan spawns, not totally removing, i mean :P 16:54:03 evilmike: yes, that'll rock! 16:54:06 They don't make much difference for most characters (although they can kill octopodes!) but they provide nice scenery. It's the "summon 5s" spell on everything's little brother that I find somewhat annoying. 16:54:08 Cannot go wrong with cool early vaults 16:54:21 MarvinPA: +1 16:54:32 MarvinPA: the way I see it, a couple of 5's and 4's (just rare) is alright. 16:54:38 rats are fine on D:1, rats are not fine on D:4 or below 16:54:47 Oh, dpeg, did you see my prev message? 16:55:07 even for a sewer? 16:55:21 DrPraetor: yes, seems okay 16:55:35 or that rat vault with a shadow imp but I'd draw the line at bats appearing in swamp and shoals 16:55:52 As I said, reducing the extreme ease with which a late caster can load on spells from foreign schools is not ideal. 16:56:06 evilmike: Set up infrastructure so that pan levels, when generated, take a function argument for the number of pan levels you've seen? Definitely +1 to that. But I'm saying - if you're going to do that, code it in such a way that we can do cool things with it, rather than just back-loading the unique levels. 16:56:06 dealing with popcorn in the rest of the dungeon would be good too, probably requires some more complicated messing with the monster generation code though since all of D uses one huge list 16:56:08 HangedMan: vaults are always fine. 16:56:11 constriction damage doesn't scale with time_taken (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5168) by galehar 16:56:14 'k 16:56:23 hey, galehar 16:56:57 dpeg: Arithmetic suggestion. The benefit to success chance from spellcasting could scale down with higher level spells? This would enable us to keep having spellcasting provide spellpower to all spells without all the whimpering and whining about spellcasting being unbalanced. 16:57:44 <|amethyst> DrPraetor: the issue here is with low-level spells, though 16:57:47 dpeg: Something like, instead of +X*Spellcasting, it could be +(X*Spellcasting)/Spell_Level+(X*10)/(1-1/Spell_Level). 16:58:12 Repel Missiles, Blink, Flight.... anything else? Summon butterflies was nerfed. 16:58:40 swift? 16:59:30 these are all spells that *anyone* can cast 16:59:36 Swift, right. Well, simple fix to *that* is to have randarts spawn with the ability to cast RMSl for you. Then non-spellcasters can get RMSl as well. 16:59:43 a minotaur in crystal plate can take these spells (although a lot of players don't realize this) 17:00:02 Oh. I thought this was all worry over troggers. No? 17:00:34 if buffs like this are really a problem then you should just remove the entire Charms school. I'm not seriously suggesting this but I feel that's the only true fix 17:00:40 unless you want to make all buffs high level spells 17:00:53 what about making higher-level spells cheaper to memorize in terms of spell slots? and then reduce spell slots overall? 17:01:28 that'd make getting a bunch of off-school low-level spells more awkward if you were a primary spellcaster 17:01:33 A minotaur in crystal plate is still going to end up with RMSl, Swift and Blink *eventually*. He might not bother with RMSl if his slots are reduced but so what? 17:01:48 ais523: I could see that working, as long as it maintains the overall balance of the number of spells you get 17:01:56 crawl already does this with delayed fireball. I think it's interesting 17:01:56 yep 17:02:10 well, crawl does it with delayed fireball as it makes regular fireball completely redundant 17:02:17 Really, I don't see any of this as a problem. The game is hard enough in the mid game that getting swiftness *early* is an advantage for primary spellcasters. 17:02:23 I also think it's better (and probably easier to make work) than crosstraining/antitraining mechanics 17:02:38 since antitraining really only makes sense for elemental magic 17:03:27 Even for elemental magic antitraining doesn't really make sense. Total levels = total level of all spells + (total number of schools) squared? Like that? 17:04:04 And then give everyone... let's see... +Spellcasting additional spell slots? That'd roughly balance out. 17:04:15 ais523: it makes it mostly redundant, not completely... fireball still costs less mp 17:04:24 ah, right 17:04:32 and delayed fireball is extra keystrokes, although it takes the same amount of time 17:04:39 lol 17:04:50 penalising you for having lots of different spell schools seems like it'd hit conjurers really hard 17:04:55 and summoners not at all 17:04:59 also, as everyone knows the main use of delayed fireball is really to walk around with FBall all game and not use it 17:05:30 MarvinPA: We'll make summoning balanced after humanity ascends to the age of aquarius in peace and unity. Easy things first. 17:06:26 well a change that's supposed to have a big effect on characters that are primarily casters but doesn't affect summoners doesn't sound like it's achieving its aim 17:06:59 MarvinPA: I think ais523 is on to something with making it more of a reward to having a narrower focus, rather than a penalty to having a broad focus. but maybe that's the same thing if the overall number of spell slots is decreased 17:07:23 seems like it'd have to be 17:07:32 in order to change anything, at least :P 17:07:36 as for summons, I think there should just be a cap (per spell) on the number of summons 17:07:43 if you're at the cap, recasting the spell extends the duration 17:08:11 that plus make summons count down way faster (or fizzle entirely) when they leave your LOS 17:08:28 evilmike: Like I'm doing! 17:08:54 I'm very strongly in favour of a per-spell cap rather than a global cap btw, because per-spell would do more to encourage using a wider set of spells 17:09:09 i like per-spell too, yeah 17:09:23 are we encouraging diversity or not here? 17:10:22 diversity among spells in the same school, sure. It's better than encouraging players to use their one "best" summoning spell 17:11:56 < DrPraetor> Swift, right. Well, simple fix to *that* is to have randarts spawn with the ability to cast RMSl for you. Then non-spellcasters can get RMSl as well. 17:12:02 this is such a bad idea i don't even know where to start 17:12:06 There aren't many choices at the high and low ends of the spectrum 17:12:12 Eronarn: just don't bother :P 17:12:26 Although it's better with Hydra and Dragon 17:13:04 more of a reward for a narrow focus is good imo 17:13:22 also as for summons we should have more summon spells that aren't just SUMMON THING and SUMMON A LOT OF THINGS 17:14:55 for example: summon oklob+ constrictor vines; summon statue garden (an adventurer party of statues); summon manticore (limited number of shots ranged attack but flees if it gets hurt/meleed); summon hunting horror (appears at edge of screen, grabs an enemy, and then drags them away) 17:15:02 stuff like that would really help to offset a summon cap 17:15:13 and make summoners not excruciatingly boring to play 17:15:24 the (rather vague) way I see this sort of focus-reward working is like, similar spells give discounts to higher level spells 17:15:50 so a few of fireballs spell slots could count towards bolt of fire, or something like that 17:15:53 evilmike: i like that... freeze + ozo's, magic dart + imb + iood? 17:16:00 yeah, exactly 17:16:14 i like that because it's not school focused, but spell focused 17:16:27 so it rewards a niche rather than a school 17:16:46 the only problem with doing it per-spell is documenting it and communicating it to the player 17:16:55 probably could work if it's in the spell description 17:17:13 evilmike: i think a simple ascii flowchart would be good, somewhere in the helpfiles 17:17:18 since there won't be too many spells affected 17:18:10 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 17:18:52 You could give a bonus for memorizing spells that are in the same book... once for each corresponding book that you have somewhere? Thus, randart spellbooks (which are currently pretty worthless) might actually be valuable. 17:18:57 might be interesting to make randbooks sometimes be conscious of said spell connectivity 17:18:59 I suppose the discount could be something like (spell level / 2) rounded up 17:19:05 well, you're definitely going to be getting at least a couple of different types of damage spells as a conjurer, doesn't this just let you take even more damage spells but more cheaply? 17:19:09 so magic dart would give a discount of 1 level to imb 17:19:22 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Up, up and away!] 17:19:32 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: I think the idea is combine this with cutting the number of spell slots 17:20:09 And, Eronarn - there's already a rod that gives you DMSl. Putting RMSl on some selection of randarts would make very little difference to anyone except Trog worshippers slogging through the late endgame. 17:20:11 MarvinPA: yeah, it would make you more encouraged to focus on a specific "chain" of spells though, and it should go along with an overall cut to spell slots (maybe not too severe) 17:20:12 in that case you probably won't be able to make use of any discounted spells, then? 17:20:30 since bolt of fire + fireball is pretty obviously a bad spell selection if it means you can't get imb as well 17:20:47 yeah 17:20:54 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:13 could just do it by school instead of specifically by spell 17:21:30 imb + either one of those would still be pretty much always the better choice 17:21:41 No-one likes my suggestion of doing it by-book, huh? 17:21:43 <|amethyst> evilmike: but charms 17:22:12 i don't think there's much wrong with damage spell selection at the moment anyway 17:23:31 MarvinPA: It'd be nice if ice elementalists kept throw frost in their spells known forever because it was free. You'd cast it occasionally for the improved range. But this is not a large enough benefit to add significant game features. 17:24:16 well by the time you forget throw frost it's because it doesn't do any damage worth mentioning 17:24:22 dpeg: you rang? 17:24:23 due: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:24:25 !messages 17:24:31 |amethyst: yeah this doesn't address charms at all, really. This whole idea is probably a bad one anyway, it's just interesting 17:24:36 ah 17:24:56 |amethyst: the channel is not +t :) you can change it if you'd like 17:24:58 So what exactly is the complaint with charms? Is it "MiFi27 in Xtal plate still casts Foo, Foo and Foo", or "DE??15 casts Foo, Foo and Foo regardless of ??"? 17:25:15 <|amethyst> due: I saw, see message number 3 :) 17:25:30 ah :) 17:25:34 henzell is not being nice :) 17:25:46 <|amethyst> DrPraetor: I think it's that everyone who doesn't worship Trog takes spells Foo, Foo, and Foo 17:25:51 (1/3) kilobyte said (2w 3d 6h 46m 32s ago): there's a dragon defined in volcano_bunker (yours), but it's not placed anywhere 17:26:09 <|amethyst> and that it is essentially free to do so if you're already a caster 17:26:47 DrPraetor: I dont have much of a complaint, myself. If I had my way I'd just change nothing except make a few tweaks. I'm pretty conservative. I also dont mind that there are utility spells which most people want to take, to me it's not much different from how you want to wear equipment. Just how the game works 17:27:06 if I have any problem with charms it's that buff stacking is a bit tedious even if you macro it. galehar had some idea for fixing that 17:28:07 evilmike: like i've been saying for a long time now, charms needs to be things that are not just buffs, and buffs need to reside places that aren't charms 17:28:35 tmut and necro already have a decent amount, although the necro ones tend to be multischool charms 17:28:45 well, regen and DDoor anyway 17:28:47 evilmike: regen should be nec/tmut anyways :P 17:28:58 DDoor probably needs to be multischool for balance reasons, or level 9 nec 17:29:18 back 17:29:38 evilmike: i think L9 nec is most flavorful 17:30:18 it's certainly fitting as the ultimate necromancy spell 17:30:19 'stop death' is a very necro-y thing to do 17:30:45 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:30:53 ais523: I like the idea of slot reductions for expensive spells. You'll want a system where the order of learning does not matter, though. 17:31:27 right, indeed; I thought it'd be just as simple as using a formula on the spell level where instead of 1->1, 2->2, 3->3, etc, it was more like 3->2 and 7->4 17:32:15 on the subject of decoupling spell level from spell slots, maybe do the same for mp as well 17:32:32 The good thing about ais523's proposal is that it's about a reward for investment rather than a punishment 17:32:45 would make it easier to balance spells if mp costs were a bit more easy to adjust 17:33:40 that is an interesting proposal 17:33:48 how would you indicate the costs? 17:34:03 spell slots taken with the new scheme ;-) 17:34:20 You could even break up spells more finely, with the difficulty of casting them on a finer gradiation. 17:34:25 and such 17:34:54 indicating the costs is easy, just put it in brackets beside the spell name or something 17:35:03 or any infinite number of other ways of showing that 17:35:16 (slowly going through the backlog) -- I like the idea of per spell summons cap 17:35:45 if you need three different numbers to tell spell level, mana cost and slots it will use, this won't look nice though 17:35:52 so at least two of them should match 17:36:38 I think slots wouldn't need to be displayed on the normal spellcasting menu, just on the memorization/forget interface 17:37:08 You need to be able to look it up 17:37:44 due: sorry for disturbance, we thought we'd need to for the new link to logs; turned out we didn't. Sorry and new year etc! 17:37:51 read the spell description or use ?/S 17:40:08 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41:08 what would be the use of displaying the spell's level if it's decoupled from the costs? could also hide that a bit 17:41:24 evilmike: you say you aren't bothered. I am not really a frequent winner but I was always under the impression that winning casters look too much alike -- is this not true? 17:41:48 chrisoelmueller: spell level has a huge impact on how hard the spell is to cast (also miscast severity), so it's important info 17:42:05 btw, I like, at least in principle, of using books for discount purposes... probably won't fly but it's an interesting idea 17:42:13 dpeg: I feel that my casters are different enough. I could pull up a few recent logs to use as examples 17:42:31 is cao still having problems 17:42:36 I tend to go for a few "core spells" but the rest is diverse 17:42:42 I think it just froze up on me again upon killing crazy yiuf 17:42:51 dpeg: it is better than it was in the past, but there are still some spells everyone goes for 17:42:59 probably killing him anyway... I pressed a button to stab him and now nothing's responding 17:43:14 sure, addressing individual spells over the last versions has helped a lot 17:43:29 so I guess we'll reach the question whether we want something beyond that 17:44:32 if we had more spells that were useful but situational i feel that would help a lot 17:44:52 right now you end up with plenty of leftover spell slots after your main spells 17:45:04 CAO is still having problems yes 17:45:09 I don't actually know what's going on 17:45:14 ugh 17:45:22 new year rax! 17:45:23 the trick is that they'd have to be situational in the right way or otherwise people just mem them before whatever branch 17:45:31 Wait, what's the new spell level suggestion? 17:45:37 Trunk processes just keep dying. I don't know why, sometimes it seems milestonerelated but sometimes not 17:45:37 rax: any common factors seem to be involved? 17:45:41 ah 17:46:01 Neil the Ruinous (L3 HECj) (D:2) 17:46:01 capslocke the Caller (L8 OpSu) (D:7) 17:46:01 jejorda2 the Poker (L5 MuGl) (Sewer) 17:46:05 kunwon1 the Firebug (L4 DEFE) (D:2) 17:46:07 demonblade the Reanimator (L6 DsNe) (D:4) 17:46:10 nogglebeak the Insei (L3 DrMo) (Sewer) 17:46:12 hyperblade the Sneak (L2 NaAs) (D:2) 17:46:13 that looks fun!! 17:46:17 EMan the Chiller (L3 DEIE) (D:2) 17:46:20 minmay the Eclecticist (L27 MuEE) (D:27) 17:46:29 here's four casters i've played recently, which I think all felt quite different: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/evilmike/morgue-evilmike-20111107-104007.txt http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/evilmike/morgue-evilmike-20111207-082347.txt http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/evilmike/morgue-evilmike-20111222-191658.txt http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/evilmike/morgue-evilmike-20111204-085111.txt 17:46:33 sousousou the Covered (L3 MiFi) (D:2) 17:46:43 Oh, wait, logs are functional again. 17:46:43 eeviac the Jinx (L7 VpEn) (D:5) 17:46:43 what are those things Henzell's vomiting up right now 17:46:46 niggergoku the Miscreant (L8 KoEn) (Temple) 17:46:49 Johan the Sneak (L5 OpEE) (D:3) 17:46:51 swinepaste the Sneak (L6 SpEn) (D:4) 17:46:53 "niggergoku". really. 17:46:54 the 4th of those had the most straightfoward "hybrid" build, most generic of all of them 17:46:57 crashes 17:46:59 oh 17:47:17 of the stuck accounts, I believe 17:47:18 the rest share a lot of similar utility spells, but I see these as being fine. You want swiftness just like you want to wear a cloak 17:47:19 I perodically find a stuck process, kill it, and then that happens 17:47:31 evilmike: that's a good point, having some variety in hybrid spells would be good 17:47:33 overall each of these casters played _very_ differently, thanks to their different spells 17:47:36 a lot of people (including me) like the playstyle 17:47:41 but they end up looking very similar 17:47:41 yeah it's quite fun 17:47:44 if it happens again is there anything in particular I can do about it/do to help 17:47:49 G-Flex: A bunch of nicknames are actually silenced normally in Henzell, I guess they still show up in ##crawl-dev 17:48:00 some more tactically useful, non-damaging, non-buff spells... 17:48:01 "fix it in trunk so that an update will make it stop happening" 17:48:02 haha I didn't know that 17:48:06 I have a savefile if that's helpful 17:48:24 Yeah there's a filter in Henzell, so you can name things whatever you want but they won't show up 17:48:25 omg 17:48:27 I don't know how to do anything, I'm just a lowly and terrible user 17:48:28 oh yeah another thing I should mention about these caster logs - aside from the mummy they are all hybrids 17:48:28 we can have summon door mimic!! 17:48:32 the mummy was a pure caster though 17:48:58 or wall mimic, maybe, if we want to add those 17:49:06 i feel that's silly but also powerful enough to be worth thinking about 17:49:07 you can create wall mimics in wizmode :P 17:49:19 they are fucked up. create a slimy wall mimic and it will burn you before it enters mimic mode!! 17:49:24 also can make lava mimics, etc 17:49:28 purposefully summon invisible thing besides getting lucky with a lorocyproca or shadow creatures 17:50:55 actually 17:51:01 it'd be pretty awesome to have water elementals able to take on shallow water form 17:52:29 dpeg: so I guess the answer is that casters are reasonably different from each other. The most generic are charms-hybrids but those are still fun 17:52:38 evilmike: okay 17:52:51 just my opinion though 17:53:29 evilmike: so we want to think about stuff like (1) buffing/nerfing individual spells (as always), (2) helping hexes, (3) some sort of summon cap 17:53:38 also, it's just a fact that some spells are better than others, and the set of good spells isn't that huge. So ultimately things can only be so different 17:53:48 no one's going to take olgreb's toxic radiance into hell or whatever :P 17:54:02 I have 17:54:06 crazy 17:54:22 I guess you could use it for a really bizarre but stylish antaeus kill 17:54:22 Here's a spell I was thinking of for Sorcery (Hexes to you): Camouflage. 17:54:50 Would make you effectively invisible to monsters outside, say, radius 3; inside the radius, you're normally visible. 17:54:52 dpeg: for 2, I really, really like the idea of hexes being an illusions themed school 17:54:55 dtsund: what does it do? 17:54:57 ah 17:55:04 I think eronarn has ideas for this, and dtsund also obviously has one with camouflage 17:55:18 hexes also already has some illusions (invis, darkness) 17:55:18 evilmike: this can be a slow process (i.e. spell by spell) 17:55:26 yeah definitely 17:55:54 oh yeah projected noise is also illusiony 17:56:01 fun spell even though a bunch of people seem to hate it 17:56:53 people hate it, what 17:57:03 because of the scummy trickery? 17:57:19 it's not scummy!! trickery, sure 17:58:34 projected noise should go 17:58:44 we should very heavily limit the actions a player can take outside LOS 18:01:57 you at least need to magic map if you want to take advantage of full range proj noise 18:01:57 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:02:02 you cant just cast it into black space 18:02:32 if you're explored around 2 edges of the map you can 18:02:35 you've 18:02:44 yeah but that's not really an option in say, tomb:3 18:02:47 perhaps PN would be more interesting if it makes a racket at the casting location but with some delay 18:03:03 dunno if it'd be as useful then 18:04:50 It would have to be a long delay and it would have to be really loud 18:05:55 yes 18:08:37 ok, I do have one minor problem with projected noise. You can use it to "probe" for open areas vs walls (dull thud if you target an unseen wall) 18:09:03 that's too divinations-esque, although its not exactly useful 18:09:12 ZChris13: kind of like my prom night 18:09:19 except without the crying 18:09:22 what 18:09:34 in theory you could explore a map from corner to corner and then tediously map the whole thing with projected noise 18:10:00 this probably ranks up there with netstabbing 18:10:01 we made labs randomized for far less than that 18:12:24 speaking of labs (a bit offtopic), I found a way to remove them locally. Just mute the messages for distant snort and the clock ticking down. I think you can also change the labyrinth glyph to show as normal floor, but I haven't tried that 18:13:27 evilmike: why do you do that? 18:13:51 a couple games ago I got bored in one and quit so I could start a new character, after that I just stopped entering them 18:14:00 the loot isn't worth it any more to me 18:14:05 wow 18:14:39 I quit games for capricious reasons all the time, that's nothing new 18:15:05 I doubt I'm the only person who chooses not to enter them though. I just thought it's funny how you can (all but) remove them by editing your config file :P 18:15:48 remove branches 18:16:23 I made a robin account on cao that removes walls and floor. All you see is blackness 18:17:23 does it also have -1 delay on travel and explore? 18:17:33 I forget 18:17:47 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:17:57 I remember I made it so you can't examine stuff with x. there was still a way to find walls though, so it was all rather pointless 18:22:55 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:26:13 -!- agolden has quit [Quit: agolden] 18:29:43 demonblade the Executioner (L15 MDBe) (Orc:4) 18:29:49 -!- agolden has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:55 wat 18:30:16 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:30:57 !lm demonblade -crash log 18:30:58 Malformed argument: -crash 18:31:03 !lm demonblade crash -log 18:31:03 6. demonblade, XL15 MDBe, T:35998 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/demonblade/crash-demonblade-20120104-002942.txt 18:31:15 ... 18:31:19 Were you still planning on changing over to a fraction-based display for spell/ability success rate? 18:31:35 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/demonblade/crash-demonblade-20120104-002941.txt 18:31:42 I could put together a patch for it, if you have a specification to follow. 18:32:04 dtsund: this never reached a concensus.... how would you do it? (Just tentatively.) 18:32:31 I like the idea of showing failure rates, more than showing success rates. I dont know if that's the idea though or if there was even a plan 18:32:50 the timestamp thing is sometimes bad with rounding off seconds 18:33:15 evilmike: yes, I recall many of us liked that 18:33:31 Some number of cutoffs; failure rates could be shown as 4/5, 3/4, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, followed by either accurate denominators or more cutoffs. 18:34:04 Oh, and things for always and never successful. 18:35:17 dtsund: yes, that sounds good to me 18:35:17 I also personally don't mind percentages. with success rates you get the issue of 98% vs 99% looking like only a small difference, but with failure rates you at least see that 2% is double of 1% 18:35:33 If it's exclusively cutoff-based, the existing code can be used with little change, but if accurate denominators are wanted, you need a way to transform the base to-beat number into actual failure rate (this is largely why I'm offering: I've already written that code for the percentage indicator). 18:35:42 this sounds like a really dumb point, maybe it is, but I just have a gut feeling it's easier to read the numbers that way 18:35:52 evilmike: true, but fractions bring more precision at the end of the spectrum 18:36:24 I like percentages more myself, but I consider fractions still better than adjectives. 18:37:42 SmiteStorm the Reanimator (L12 NaIE) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 941 failed on turn 13901. (Lair:3) 18:38:01 So, accurate denominators? 18:39:07 not sure if something like 1/43 will hurt or help 18:39:28 hurt 18:39:48 The other thing I'd need to ask is: should 4/5 be shown in the 4/5 to 3/4 failure range, or from 9/10 to 31/40 range? 18:39:51 in any case, unit fractions (1/xxx) are much better than arbitrary fractions 18:39:53 I'd think the former. 18:40:59 Yeah, I'd want to stick to unit fractions aside from the kind-of necessary 4/5, 3/4, and 2/3. 18:41:06 yes, those are okay 18:41:07 Maybe one of those could go. 18:41:31 or just print >1/2 ? 18:42:02 I'm not sure I like that, because you occasionally want to cast spells even through high failure rate. 18:42:09 Like levitation to reach some loot. 18:42:31 yeah, there are sometimes reasons to cast a spell that might only be successful 1/4 of the time 18:42:58 that's one thing percentages would be better at conveying 18:43:24 (I just dont like the idea of showing fractions like 4/5) 18:43:40 flight, passwall, blink, apportation, LRD, dig, ... 18:44:29 dunno about dig, you'd probably get mutated if you cast that at a bad success 18:44:34 the other ones are true though 18:44:43 evilmike: Not if under Sif Muna. 18:44:59 well, yeah, aside from miscast protection 18:46:01 dig tends to have alternatives, there's nothing that can replace LRD if you need to get rid of a piece of stone or crystal 18:47:02 kilobyte: hi! 18:47:37 dpeg: meow? 18:48:11 happy arbitrary bitfield increase :) 18:49:42 what are the thoughts on this patch? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5156 18:50:33 also galefury uploaded a new potion, although he says he did it as an experiment more than anything https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5082 18:52:54 I am not in love with Augmentation but I think it's okay. 18:54:13 I am fine with !evolution. Note that millions of vaults use !mutation though :) 18:54:41 Augmentation isn't that bad, except for the name. 18:54:51 augmentation looks cool to me, not entirely certain if it'd necessarily be strong enough as for a t3 mut? but i guess it scales up pretty nicely at level 3 18:54:59 well, the name is the easiest thing to change 18:55:06 with !evolution, though... I'd say it's far too drastic effect for a potion. 18:55:13 I like jeffqyzt's suggestion 18:55:27 "Sadomasochistic Augmentation" 18:55:29 you'd pretty much stop people from drinking un-ided ones 18:55:45 I think just "Masochism" would be better. 18:56:10 hmm, maybe. on characters I really care about, I often already put off drinking un-id'd potions because of !mut 18:57:59 same, it's always seemed odd to me that !mut is the only potion preventing me from quaff-IDing them most of the time 18:58:27 not wanting to waste good potions is another good reason 18:58:47 sure, but !mut is the only one I ever consider very dangerous 18:59:35 MarvinPA: it's mostly: save one cure mut vs 20 id scrolls 19:00:15 Pretty much. !mutation is basically the only really dangerous item Crawl has, and half the time it helps you anyway. 19:00:24 saving one !speed and one !heal wounds and so on is pretty helpful 19:00:40 certainly you'll find lots more later but early on they are valuable 19:00:41 yeah 19:00:55 i at least never quaff id potions i only have 1 of. that's just wasteful unless in emergencies 19:01:34 certain bad potions could probably be nastier. degen is weird, I think it's one of the rarest potions and just does minor stat loss 19:02:03 oh wait no, I'm thinking of decay, which causes rot (also mild) 19:02:52 well, it causes pretty severe rot 19:03:19 except you can cure it immediately so it almost never matters 19:04:50 also, items to recover from HP rot are more common than cure mut 19:05:00 perhaps cause immediate maxhp loss, in addition to rot status 19:05:04 and the results of decay are more reliable/predictable 19:05:33 evilmike: maxhp loss + statloss 19:05:42 there's already a statloss potion 19:05:55 Oh well 19:08:14 is there a reason for so many bad potions to exist in the first place, aside from evap? 19:08:23 they're all entirely irrelevant once you ID them 19:08:31 in theory they should add an element of risk to the id game 19:08:48 yeah, I'm just curious what the intent is 19:08:56 well, that's the intent 19:09:08 okay! 19:09:27 they also pad out potion generation a bit, causing fewer good ones to generate 19:09:45 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:49 without bad potions, the id game would be nearly indefensible 19:12:15 I like the id game myself. I know crawl light doesn't 19:12:29 I like the id game, overall 19:12:31 it's not perfect but I feel it makes the early and mid game more interesting and that's good 19:12:36 yes 19:12:37 it 19:12:48 's one of the reasons why the early game is the best part of the game 19:13:10 the way I see it, crawl's hard + random early game is basically why I still play the game 19:13:30 even though I have said in the past that "I hate the early game" (it's a bit of a love/hate relationship) 19:15:15 [reference to ap's "every game is sadomasochistic" philosophies"] 19:16:45 it would be neat if that helpless/desperate/unknown feeling extended to the entire game 19:17:03 because the best part of the game isn't just the early game, it's hitting a shaft at around d:9 19:17:12 It'd need to be accompanied by a drastic reduction in game length. 19:17:19 yes, most likely 19:17:25 it's hard to keep up that much tension for long 19:17:25 make submerging monsters more relevant 19:17:29 have an invisible unique 19:17:39 HangedMan: we already have one 19:17:41 you must never have seen it 19:17:50 tension is when dullness is interrupted, it can somewhat work even with long works 19:18:15 I dont think its possible to reasonably have an extreme level of difficulty all game long 19:18:17 A large part of that feeling comes from how you can die at any time. If that's always true, and the game is long, the game would become too difficult to complete. 19:18:38 yeah 19:19:11 but the point of the game isn't to complete it, it's to get a high score :P 19:19:22 plus there are plenty of things in the lategame which can absolutely murder you. it's just that you are able to build your character around that 19:19:25 specific high scores 19:19:37 Games should go back to the old "score machine" style of gameplay 19:19:42 tension can come from the unexpected 19:19:43 you can also get that feeling from midgame banishments 19:19:45 Play until it gets too fast too hard 19:20:11 if only iron grates weren't easily destructible with dig 19:20:26 use statues if you want something like that 19:20:35 hahaha 19:20:38 statue = can disintigrate, not dig. otherwise acts mostly the same as a grate 19:20:40 a statue slams shut 19:20:58 HangedMan: pops up from the ground 19:21:06 yesssssss 19:21:15 especially if it's a pillar 19:22:04 an earthen tooth thrusts out of the soil! 19:22:18 BTW, statues really, really suck in tiles. They get one of a set of inconsistent shapes which are only ever appropriate when it's a single statue standing away from anything else. 19:22:29 dpeg: That's actually the reason I want to make a midgame banishment mandatory for allrune games. 19:23:05 well, vaults like the temple entrance with like twenty statues around in are a bit more egregious then statue hallways 19:23:18 twenty statue cage rather 19:23:48 statue hallways are defensible: can be explained as a gallery of sorts 19:23:48 dtsund: funny thought.... I had it too, but never shared it :) 19:24:11 temple entrances... and especially, themed temples (like TSO's), not really 19:24:18 Hah 19:24:42 I actually did write it down, so I win! 19:25:02 dpeg: instead of rune lock, at d:14 you fall into the abyss, and escape to d:15 :P 19:25:03 (You'll need to do it in the next version of Light to get the key to Hell.) 19:26:13 (You'll also need to give up two ?acquirement for the privilege.) 19:26:50 how the heck are you supposed to get ?acquirement for that 19:27:06 It's linked to how I'll be handling difficulty. 19:27:10 dtsund: you can afford to be more reckless :) 19:27:52 beh, one of best parts of real crawl is the ability to switch your goals at any time 19:27:59 instead of fixed banishment, I think there should be more situations 19:28:04 I like that crawl light is being experimental 19:28:04 so adding shafts was good 19:28:10 evilmike: absolutely! 19:28:13 it's good to have that sort of crazy stuff developed in a fork 19:28:32 got some exceptional gear on a char you wanted to 3-rune? No problem. You see you're getting beaten and can't 15-rune or multi-Zig? Zot is over there -----> 19:28:59 I probably won't touch that particular experiment until at least I finish Shoals reform, though. 19:29:10 removing all water from shoals 19:29:14 as per mcrawl 19:29:20 I didn't do that! 19:29:37 I just made it so that the tide only causes alternation between shallows and land. 19:29:41 does it have to do with making the islands further or hah 19:30:13 And sped up the tide by a factor of 30 so that you can have the proverbial rug torn out from under you midfight. 19:30:20 dtsund: that makes the tide kind of... ineffectual/pointless 19:30:25 well 19:30:28 not really pointless, it would still matter 19:30:36 and it would solve the problem of loot constantly disappearing and reappearing 19:31:16 It's not the loot that's the problem, it's the unnecessary travel-breaking, in my opinion 19:32:25 Merfolk, javelineers, and impalers have been nerfed, but have been given old-style attack bonus against floundering players, and the latter two are eligible for common generation starting at Shoals:1. 19:33:00 Aquamancers remain branch-end threats. 19:33:20 so flight/swimming/floating/whatever is still crucial but not for traversal itself, hmm, appreciable 19:33:37 The balance is probably far off-kilter at the moment, though. 19:33:58 Actually, a long-term goal of mine is to kill levitation/flight. 19:34:07 poor tengu nooooooooo 19:34:30 I'm betting crawl light stuck with kenku 19:34:59 Oh, yeah, it's still kenku. 19:40:07 with all kind of mad idea like that, I wouldn't be surprised if you had MDs 19:40:32 I do, but I'm going to remove either them or Mi, and for the same reason you did. 19:40:38 I just haven't decided which yet. 19:44:53 -!- Xiberia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:52 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:02:17 dtsund: remove minotaurs, advertise light as "crawl with mountain dwarves" :P 20:02:26 even though minotaurs are more interesting overall (retaliation is cool) 20:10:24 alternatively, change one of Mi and MD into something that isn't too similar to another race 20:16:11 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:19 ais523: I think there was a plan at some point to make MD SIZE_SMALL. 20:16:34 hmm 20:16:36 And dwarvish armor wearable by the small races. 20:16:39 dwarves are weird in NetHack 20:16:42 *in D&D 20:16:59 I can't remember if they're small but count as medium for some things, or medium but count as small for some things 20:18:07 ais523: And anyway, I'm certainly not against removing races. 20:18:23 indeed 20:18:29 I was just thinking, from a marketing point of view :) 20:18:41 I need to work out what to do about classes in Ace 20:18:53 the races are well-differentiated (although human sucks), but the classes have problems 20:19:00 and yet I obviously can't remove any 20:19:23 Caveman FTL 20:19:44 really, Cav and Bar could be merged, and they'd /still/ be too similar to Val 20:20:13 the problem is that Cav's big intended advantage turns out to be pretty much completely irrelevant 20:20:50 perhaps I should give them /way/ more HP, or something, but it's hard to justify that as anything but a deliberate gameplay change 20:21:12 I thought Ace policy was to not care about such things 20:21:37 it is 20:21:48 I'm not sure how long I'll be able to justify that policy 20:21:56 hopefully long enough to capture NetHack's entire player base, though ;) 20:31:00 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:36:19 it's been a while since i've played nethack. cavemen's advantage is cannibalism right? 20:36:27 Not really. 20:36:33 It's uber-high strength. 20:36:38 oh 20:36:55 the problem is that strength is not only an easy stat to train deliberately, it's also an easy stat to train accidentally, and also not that relevant 20:37:29 caveman, barbarian, valkyre mostly struck me as just being different quests 20:37:58 valk has the best equipment by quite a long way 20:38:02 I forget if samurai felt all that different, all I rememebr about them is it's Japan Mode 20:38:20 They start with a ranged option. 20:38:25 oh yeah 20:38:27 a great hand weapon that's easily upgradeable to an ascension-quality artifact, and armour that's not only good but is in a slot with few demands 20:38:41 so that they can wear armour found in the dungeon as well as their shield 20:39:23 I feel like I should know this given that my first ascension was with a valk 20:40:02 valks use their starting equipment all the way to the castle, except (usually) the dagger, and the food (which is used but is a consumable) 20:48:58 -!- medgno_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:51:09 -!- medgno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:59 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:22:36 -!- agolden has quit [Quit: agolden] 21:25:00 -!- Jevouse has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:59 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3057-gee18ef1 (32) 21:32:23 question 21:32:25 _The plant is severely damaged. 21:32:25 You puncture the plant but do no damage. 21:32:25 _The plant is almost destroyed. 21:32:31 I guess the question is "huh?" 21:33:32 huh, it just happened again 21:33:53 You puncture the plant but do no damage. 21:33:53 _You destroy the plant! 21:33:54 cool. 21:34:40 subtractor snake (10S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 18 | Health: 77-123 | AC/EV: 6/16 | Damage: 2514(subtractor) | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(72) | XP: 3037. 21:34:40 %?? subtractor snake 21:36:14 what the hell 21:36:21 what is that bot? 21:37:33 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:37:36 but yeah does anyone have any clue about those messages? 21:37:40 I'm using a dagger of draining, if it matters 21:37:46 is draining affecting plants without giving a message? 21:38:51 chei bot does some things that the other bots don't simply 21:38:57 also plants have rN+++ I think 21:39:00 @??plant 21:39:00 plant (03P) | Speed: 0 | HD: 10 | Health: 36-72 | AC/EV: 10/0 | Flags: 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++ | XP: 0. 21:39:40 HangedMan: I've never heard of a subtractor snake, or subtractor damage 21:39:44 hrm 21:39:57 maybe the "do no damage" message is bugged 21:40:01 they're obscure zot monsters currently disabled because they didn't have a good enough gimmick 21:40:05 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:40:05 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 21:42:12 <|amethyst> G-Flex: chei does 1. what ashenzari used to do (logging and mantis notification; maybe eventually wiki notification); 2. @?? from gretell, but compiled against more recent trunk; 3. git repository queries 21:42:22 ah 21:42:23 thanks 21:42:30 <|amethyst> G-Flex: it's based on Ashenzari's code (by doy), with some additions 21:46:10 <|amethyst> oh, it also announces new branches 21:46:17 <|amethyst> since CIA seems to have a problem with that 21:49:42 dwarf (15q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 130. 21:49:42 <|amethyst> %??dwarf 21:49:46 deep dwarf (07q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 18-37 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 130. 21:49:46 <|amethyst> %??deep dwarf 21:54:57 -!- medgno_ has quit [Quit: Quitting] 22:02:54 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:04:35 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:10:14 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 22:11:33 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:13:33 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:19 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:16:19 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 22:20:01 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:21:25 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:25 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 22:23:45 -!- wtface has joined ##crawl-dev 22:44:40 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:44:52 Shopping sorting (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5169) by tukkek 22:48:09 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:37 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:09:51 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:09:51 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 23:20:53 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:29:18 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:35:07 something strange is going on 23:35:11 I'm standing over a pile of books and pressing M 23:35:18 but the resulting screen isn't displaying a spell from one of the books 23:35:23 are they identified books 23:35:26 yeah I've read all of them 23:35:33 and 23:35:35 is it a spell you're allowed to cast? 23:35:36 I apparently already know the spell 23:35:40 and forgot about it. 23:35:42 never mind. 23:35:44 nice 23:59:44 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev