--- Log opened Sat Dec 31 00:00:26 2011 00:02 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11 ۰۰-- evilmike [~evilmike@207.6.121.180] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v evilmike] by ChanServ 00:11 < dtsund> Did swamp worms lose their attack bonus against players in shallow water at some point? 00:12 <+evilmike> they were nerfed a couple of versions ago, but I'm not sure if that's the change, or if they just do less damage now. I tend to fly through swamp 00:12 <+evilmike> alligators are basically the new swamp worms 00:13 < dtsund> Ah, yeah, found the commit. 00:14 * dtsund is planning on reinstating the bonus for krakens but weakening their attacks otherwise 00:16 < dtsund> ??swamp_worm 00:16 < Henzell> swamp worm[1/2]: A brown aquatic w found mainly in the swamp (elsewhere only in vaults). Harmless, unless you foolishly autoexplore into the shallow water, in which case it can (through terrain advantage) do 50+ damage in one bite. Try to fight these from land or while levitating. Strong attack wands (fire, cold, draining) also work well 00:17 < dtsund> !learn del swamp_worm[1] 00:17 < dtsund> !learn add swamp_worm[1] A brown aquatic w found mainly in the swamp (elsewhere only in vaults). Can do up to 26 damage per bite, but incapable of crossing land, and thus easy to get away from. 00:17 < Henzell> Deleted swamp worm[1/2]: A brown aquatic w found mainly in the swamp (elsewhere only in vaults). Harmless, unless you foolishly autoexplore into the shallow water, in which case it can (through terrain advantage) do 50+ damage in one bite. Try to fight these from land or while levitating. Strong attack wands (fire, cold, draining) also work well 00:17 < Henzell> swamp worm[1/2]: A brown aquatic w found mainly in the swamp (elsewhere only in vaults). Can do up to 26 damage per bite, but incapable of crossing land, and thus easy to get away from. 00:19 ۰۰-- HangedMan [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:02 < Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3024-ga8f5869 (32) 01:15 < Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3024-ga8f5869 01:23 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ [~MarvinPA@85.210.102.249] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:23 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ [~MarvinPA@85.210.102.249] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:23 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v MarvinPA_] by ChanServ 01:28 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ [~MarvinPA@85.210.102.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39 ۰۰-- st_ [~s@cpc10-stre5-2-0-cust69.1-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:40 ۰۰-- ZChris13 [~ZChris13@64.20.128.250.dyn-e-pool1.pool.hargray.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:34 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02 ۰۰-- Wensley [~chatzilla@dynamic-acs-72-23-89-126.zoominternet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:04 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52 ۰۰-- dtsund [~detasund@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:57 ۰۰-- Zaba [~zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:10 ۰۰-- Zaba [~zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:10 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ 04:12 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36 ۰۰-- blabber [~tobi@p3EE3A992.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47 ۰۰-- alefury [~galefury@B4115.karlshof.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49 ۰۰-- Pingas [~Pingas@40.181.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12 ۰۰-- Jevouse [~guan.shou@bb220-255-80-21.singnet.com.sg] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12 < Jevouse> anybody around 05:13 < Jevouse> neil! 05:13 ۰۰-- Ragdoll [~Ragdoll@53518A17.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13 < Jevouse> elliptic? 05:14 < Jevouse> |amethyst 05:14 < Jevouse> you there? 05:19 <+|amethyst> hey 05:19 <+|amethyst> what's up? 05:19 < Jevouse> are skeletons supposed to pick up stuff automatically?? 05:19 < Jevouse> i thought they were mindless? 05:20 <+|amethyst> huh? 05:20 <+|amethyst> oh 05:20 <+|amethyst> skeletons should not be able to pick things up at all 05:20 <+|amethyst> skeletal warriors can 05:20 < Jevouse> well my skeletons are wearing plate armour 05:20 < Jevouse> and wielding longsword 05:20 < Jevouse> s 05:20 <+|amethyst> they were wearing that when killed 05:20 < Jevouse> ah 05:20 < Jevouse> but they can make no use of that? 05:21 <+|amethyst> if you leave the equipment untouched, they'll raise with it 05:21 <+|amethyst> they can 05:21 < Jevouse> well, how do i get them to drop it? 05:21 <+|amethyst> kill them 05:21 < Jevouse> aw balls 05:21 <+|amethyst> if you pick up the stuff before raising them, they won't raise with it 05:21 <+|amethyst> AFAIK even if you re-drop it on the same square 05:22 < Jevouse> so even though i am their lord and master 05:22 < Jevouse> i can't just get them to give it to me? 05:22 < ghallberg> Jevouse: Mindless remember? :D 05:23 < Jevouse> yeah, but like if i want the sword, i'll just make the skeleton drop it 05:23 < Jevouse> if i can make them attack targets and such with t 05:23 < Jevouse> surely i can make them do simpler stuff 05:37 < alefury> just kill it... 05:37 < alefury> its a skeleton! 05:38 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03 ۰۰-- jeanjacques [~jejacques@port-92-200-28-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06 < Jevouse> |amethyst 06:06 < Jevouse> are you still there? 06:15 ۰۰-- petete [~quassel@190.190.173.140] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24 <+|amethyst> Jevouse: am now 06:25 < Jevouse> i just hit a kobold with a dart of disperal 06:25 < Jevouse> and he didn't blink 06:25 <+evilmike> it needs to do damage 06:26 < Jevouse> why? 06:26 < Jevouse> all other brands activate on hit 06:26 < Jevouse> well except those that base their activity on damage done 06:27 < Jevouse> and if it didn't do damage 06:27 <+evilmike> its just a balance thing 06:27 < Jevouse> it would state that it didn't do anything damage, right? 06:27 < Jevouse> like for spells and shit 06:28 < Jevouse> "The kobold appears unharmed" 06:28 <+evilmike> makes darts of dispersal not just a free "blink other" that cant be resisted. also arrows of dispersal are much more effective than darts 06:28 < Jevouse> or w/e 06:28 < Jevouse> well now i'm gonna die thanks to this "balance" thing 06:28 < Jevouse> isn't the balance simply 100% destruction on dispersal ammo? 06:29 <+evilmike> it's both 06:30 <+evilmike> I'm not sure why it has 100% mulching like that though, might not be necessary any more 06:30 < Jevouse> too harsh 06:30 ۰۰-- syllogism [syllogism@89-166-16-68.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30 < Jevouse> if i'm a level 1 warper i wanna be able to blink shit away to survive 06:31 <+evilmike> you're not going to find much sympathy here 06:33 < Jevouse> eh 06:34 < Jevouse> i'm sure the devs don't want warpers to die on D:1 just because of this 06:34 <+|amethyst> everyone dies on D:1 06:34 <+evilmike> warpers don't really have that hard of a start, you get a nice stack of +1 darts and dispersal is good enough, even if it's not 100% reliable 06:35 <+evilmike> this is enough to get you to level 2, which gets you blink, and from there it's much easier 06:36 <+evilmike> this doesn't mean you are guaranteed to survive, it just means that you have a chance. you're going to lose low level characters, you just have to suck it up and reroll. If you want to avoid death entirely just play a DDNe or something 06:37 < Jevouse> haha 06:38 < Jevouse> even DDNe die 06:38 <+evilmike> yeah but with good play it's almost impossible to die without trying to 06:38 <+evilmike> most combos are suseptable to bad luck... deep dwarfs usually have already won the game by d:2 06:39 < Jevouse> an exaggeration, surely 06:39 < Jevouse> especially if you don't go with cheap healing 06:39 <+evilmike> The idea is to go with easy healing :P 06:39 < Jevouse> pfft 06:40 < Jevouse> i've lost DDHe to multi smite orc priests of the lulz 06:40 <+evilmike> you're fighting them wrong. as soon as you see an orc (not even an orc priest) retreat, fight it somewhere safe 06:40 < Jevouse> can't , big open area 06:40 < Jevouse> LoS no blocker 06:41 <+evilmike> if you see an orc priest, retreat to the stairs and don't even bother fighting. as long as you're moving away it won't smite you enough to kill you 06:41 < Jevouse> oh really? 06:41 < Jevouse> wow 06:41 < Jevouse> so there was a trick like this 06:41 <+|amethyst> it has to spend turns to keep up with you 06:41 < Jevouse> what i did was 06:41 < Jevouse> 3x Greater Self Healing 06:41 <+evilmike> it moves the same speed as you. it's not really a trick, it either has to smite or move towards you 06:41 < Jevouse> they smite me every time i do that 06:41 <+evilmike> so if you're fleeing, it's not going to keep up if it smites 06:42 < Jevouse> i see 06:43 < Jevouse> but it can still choose to smite you instead of pursue you, right? 06:43 < Jevouse> or is it weighted in some way 06:43 <+evilmike> yes, but then you'll have gained distance (probably enough to put it out of view) 06:43 < Jevouse> well, what happened was 06:43 < Jevouse> i opened a door 06:43 <+evilmike> close the door 06:43 < Jevouse> right behind the door is 2x Orc priest 06:44 <+evilmike> yeah thats bad luck, you just need to panic in those cases 06:44 <+evilmike> note that this works on pretty much every enemy in the game. the only noteworthy early enemy fleeing doesnt work well with is centaurs. for everything else i've just told you the single most important tactic in the game, for winning 06:44 < Jevouse> yeah, so DD with cheap healing doesn't win all teh time 06:44 < Jevouse> lol 06:44 < Jevouse> still susceptible to bad luck 06:45 < Jevouse> oh yeah, centaurs... 06:45 < Jevouse> thanks for reminding me 06:45 < Jevouse> arrows that never miss and they're faster than you! 06:46 <+evilmike> for them you need to choose whether retreating is better than approaching. can lead to interesting fights. or death. either is good 06:46 < Jevouse> bah, death 06:46 < cbus> anyone tried the binding of isaac? 06:46 < cbus> :) 06:46 <+evilmike> their arrows do miss though, few things have perfect accuracy and centaurs are not one of them 06:46 < Jevouse> just when you feel things are going great 06:46 < Jevouse> up comes Mr. D 06:47 < Jevouse> I think Spriggans and Centaurs are the only two races that can run away from Centaurs? 06:47 <+evilmike> if you can survive a few arrows and a corner or door is near, any race can run away from centaurs 06:48 < Jevouse> well, assuming that its one of those big empty circle levels 06:48 <+evilmike> then you're in trouble. 06:49 < Jevouse> so i guess Spriggans have the highest win rate because they can pretty much run away from everything? 06:49 <+evilmike> Centaurs probably still have the highest win rate 06:49 <+evilmike> but, you've got the idea 06:50 < Jevouse> well i guess the herbivore thing is a problem 06:51 < Jevouse> since they removed hive 06:51 < Jevouse> can spriggans use amulet of gourmand? 06:51 <+|amethyst> they can wear it, but it does nothing for them 06:52 < Jevouse> i see 06:52 < Jevouse> was hive subsumed into lair or something? 06:52 <+|amethyst> unless it's cursed and they're ash worshippers 06:52 <+|amethyst> the plan is to make hive into a portal vault 06:52 <+evilmike> you just get guaranteed food in a couple of early vaults 06:52 <+|amethyst> or at least it was 06:52 <+evilmike> i think the portal vault idea has been dropped 06:53 <+|amethyst> maybe someone should do a larva-popping food vault 06:53 <+|amethyst> I guess bee rooms are already close enough 06:54 <+|amethyst> though I haven't seen many larvae recently 06:54 <+|amethyst> perhaps that's why :) 06:55 < Jevouse> so there is no way for spriggan to get carnivore from mutation stuff either? 06:55 <+|amethyst> FR: killer bees eat royal jellies to become queen bees 06:55 <+evilmike> beehive special rooms still only place bees and queen bees 06:56 <+evilmike> one thing I'd like to do sometime is revamp special rooms, bee larvae should be added to bee rooms 06:56 < Jevouse> ooh yeah... 06:56 < Jevouse> wait a minute 06:56 < Jevouse> i remember 0.9 had bee vaults with larvae 06:56 <+evilmike> there are some 06:56 < Jevouse> what's wrong with those? 06:56 <+evilmike> I'm talking about special rooms, a very particular type of vault 06:57 <+|amethyst> in my experience, you see bee rooms much more often than bee vaults 06:57 < Jevouse> what's the diff between room and vault? 06:59 < Jevouse> since you say room is a particular type of vault 06:59 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L16 MuSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster green ugly thing failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 07:00 < Ragdoll> haha fuck 07:00 <+evilmike> special rooms used to be hardcoded, now they're defined as vaults, but they're all in lua 07:00 < Ragdoll> there goes all my runes 07:00 < Jevouse> ah, i see 07:00 <+|amethyst> ah, I hadn't realised they were lua now 07:01 <+|amethyst> when did that happen? 07:01 <+|amethyst> probably long before I started playing even 07:01 <+evilmike> 0.5 I think 07:01 <+|amethyst> yeah, long before I started playing 07:01 < Jevouse> so the plan is simply to standardize certain features amongst these vaults? 07:01 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L16 MuSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster brown very ugly thing failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 07:01 <+evilmike> there's no plan for them 07:02 <+evilmike> I only have a vauge idea of making some of the monster lists scale better with depth, and adding a couple of new types 07:02 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:02 <+|amethyst> hm... wonder if these abyss changes I'm working on will be more or less annoying 07:02 <+evilmike> what are the changes? 07:02 <+|amethyst> the idea is to make morphing jerkier 07:02 <+evilmike> less annoying 07:03 <+|amethyst> well, the top morphing speed is 2.5 times the current one 07:03 <+evilmike> yeah, but I assume you'll also have periods where the abyss is "still" 07:03 <+|amethyst> but the average is about 77% the current, and the minimum is 20% the current 07:03 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L16 MuSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster iron imp failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 07:03 <+|amethyst> those numbers can be tweaked 07:04 <+evilmike> and as long as those periods are fairly long, and the time it spends morphing is fairly short, I think it would work well 07:04 <+|amethyst> what's "fairly long"? 07:04 < Ragdoll> atleast i can duplicate dragon king armours now 07:04 <+evilmike> I'm not sure, it would be good to play with the numbers and get an actual feel for it 07:04 <+|amethyst> I'm using A + B * sin^P(phase) 07:05 <+evilmike> I'm just thinking something like, 3/4 or 4/5 of the time it isn't morphing or very "slow", and then ramps up 07:05 <+|amethyst> for the speed, relative to the old speed 07:05 <+|amethyst> hm, that might need a higher P than I'm using now 07:05 <+|amethyst> I think right now it's slowish for about 2/3 of the time 07:06 <+|amethyst> did you have an order of magnitude for the period? 07:06 <+|amethyst> right now I'm using 2*pi, which works out to 90-314 turns from peak to peak 07:07 <+|amethyst> twice that for chei worshippers 07:07 <+|amethyst> (turns as in 10 ticks) 07:07 <+evilmike> I have only thought about this a little, 300 to 500 is what seems reasonable to me, at least as a start 07:07 <+evilmike> 1000 is too long, 100 is too short 07:08 <+|amethyst> for non-cheibriadites you mean? 07:08 <+evilmike> yeah. but even 500 might be too long 07:08 < Jevouse> well 07:08 <+evilmike> it would help to know what the average duration of an abyss visit is (for someone not looking for a rune) 07:08 < Jevouse> what do you think about letting felids use portal projectile? 07:09 <+|amethyst> abyss speed has a factor of 3.5 between the minimum and maximum 07:09 <+evilmike> I often find I spend far fewer turns in the abyss than it feels like... so my guess of 500 may be on the high end 07:09 < Jevouse> Or can they already use PP? 07:10 <+evilmike> it's good for the speed to vary a lot, this way players notice it. I also think it should spend some time at 0 (or whatever no morphing is) though 07:10 <+|amethyst> hm 07:10 <+evilmike> even at a very slow speed, there's a huge difference between "no morphing" and "some morphing" 07:10 <+evilmike> I'd say one of the main complaints about the abyss is that walls can appear in front of you, making movement a bit more of a chore than it should be 07:12 < Jevouse> Do you know, |amethyst? 07:13 <+|amethyst> they can't even memorise it 07:13 < Jevouse> well, should they be able to? 07:13 <+|amethyst> they can't throw things 07:13 < Jevouse> but this isn't throwing 07:13 < Jevouse> its teleporting 07:14 <+|amethyst> it is 07:14 <+|amethyst> it's throwing things through a portal 07:14 < Jevouse> ah, ok 07:16 < Jevouse> by the way, i noticed a fixed bug about TSO, that said that the infinite piety for seeing 0 hp monsters was removed 07:16 < Jevouse> so TSO gives piety for seeing monsters now? 07:17 <+|amethyst> yes---unless they're evil, in which case you have to kill them 07:17 <+|amethyst> the flavour is that you're inspecting them to see if they need to be cleansed 07:17 <+|amethyst> also, TSO (along with the other good gods) loses piety over time 07:17 < Jevouse> aaahhh 07:18 < Jevouse> so that majorly buffs TSO in the early game 07:19 <+evilmike> piety from waiting was removed 07:19 < Jevouse> yes, but with the faster food clock 07:19 <+evilmike> I've heard tso is a bit better early on though 07:20 < Jevouse> you can't wait around anyway 07:20 < jeanjacques> a bit better is a understatement 07:20 < jeanjacques> you can break the game with tso early on 07:20 < jeanjacques> A summons are ridiculous 07:20 <+evilmike> ah, you can get them that early? 07:20 < jeanjacques> especially the duration increase for kills 07:21 < jeanjacques> they stay for multiple floors no problem 07:21 <+|amethyst> before the bugfix, the right vault could get you from zero to 6 stars nearly instantly 07:21 <+evilmike> heh 07:21 < jeanjacques> you can get them pre lair if you get lucky with a ossuary or are a monk 07:21 <+|amethyst> probably things like rooms can get you a few stars 07:21 < jeanjacques> no need for plants 07:22 <+evilmike> well, angel/daeva summons have always been incredibly good, so this is nothing new 07:22 <+evilmike> the new part is getting ****** early on 07:22 < jeanjacques> and even a regular play gets them somewhere in lair 07:22 <+|amethyst> probably the gain for seeing monsters should be lowered then 07:22 < jeanjacques> i think the As should not get a duration increase for non evil kills 07:23 <+evilmike> this would be a good change 07:23 <+evilmike> only buff summons that tso gives piety for 07:23 < jeanjacques> they would still be very good bia type summons 07:23 <+evilmike> err, i mean only buff summons when they kill things tso gives piety for 07:23 <+|amethyst> hm, weird 07:24 <+|amethyst> when I load an old abyss save, it morphs fast for two or three turns 07:24 < Jevouse> yeah it'd be a nice change 07:24 < Jevouse> err 07:24 <+|amethyst> it should be still 07:24 < Jevouse> how does Zin get piety now? just stealing all your gold? 07:25 <+|amethyst> I'm initialising the phase to zero, and speed is zero when phase is zero 07:25 <+evilmike> jeanjacques: actually to be honest i didnt even know he buffed your angels for non-evil kills 07:26 <+evilmike> sure doesn't look that way based on the messages either. are you sure they aren't just getting buffed from regular zombie kills, orc priests, and such? 07:27 < jeanjacques> mmh would have to look at some footv but i am pretty sure regular monster kills increase duration 07:33 < Jevouse> Zin takes ...what...10% of every gold you make? 07:34 < Jevouse> and then provides piety based on the amount? 07:34 < st_> the main problem with abyss now is the amount of deep water/lava in it 07:34 <+|amethyst> I'm going to change that a bit too 07:34 < st_> flight is about as important as swiftness for surviving 07:34 < st_> at a low level 07:35 <+|amethyst> I guess replacing them with walls won't help, though :) 07:35 < Jevouse> also, |amethyst, you mentioned that PP throws projectiles through a portal, right 07:35 <+|amethyst> that's how I've always interpreted it 07:35 < Jevouse> so PP should not need LoF , only LoS to the target? 07:36 <+|amethyst> spell-like LOS 07:36 <+|amethyst> so it won't work through glass anymore 07:36 <+|amethyst> but will work through monsters 07:36 < Jevouse> doesn't work through trees either 07:36 <+|amethyst> that too 07:36 <+|amethyst> trees block spells 07:36 < Jevouse> is that for balance reasons? 07:36 < Jevouse> i.e , not giving it smite targeting 07:36 <+|amethyst> smite targetting doesn't work through trees 07:37 <+|amethyst> anymore 07:37 <+|amethyst> which is mostly to prevent scumming 07:38 < Jevouse> well, you can't scum with PP 07:38 < Jevouse> you lose all your projectiles eventually 07:38 <+|amethyst> PP is changed for consistency 07:38 < Ragdoll> more like encounrage groaning 07:38 <+|amethyst> and it takes quite a while to deplete the dungeon of rocks :) 07:38 <+|amethyst> err, stones 07:38 < Ragdoll> trees should not block smite 07:39 < Jevouse> how does throwing stones at anything behind glass do anything more than annoy it 07:39 < Ragdoll> trees should not block fear 07:39 <+evilmike> i dont like how trees block things 07:39 < jeanjacques> evilmike: there are no messages for regular kills from As, maybe it was just my imagination in combination with playing fast 07:39 <+evilmike> right now smite targeting can go past things that aren't "full" obstructions - this includes monsters, statues, grates. Glass blocks it because I presume it's fully solid 07:40 <+evilmike> trees go against that explanation though, it strikes me as an inconsistency 07:40 < Jevouse> yeah, trees aren't fully solid... 07:40 <+|amethyst> trees are funny in crawl :) 07:41 <+|amethyst> they block everything except vision 07:41 <+|amethyst> they're like glass walls but less transparent 07:41 <+evilmike> they're basically walls which I guess is why they block spells 07:41 <+|amethyst> and burnable 07:41 < Jevouse> even if you're a fedhas worshiper? 07:41 < Jevouse> lol 07:41 <+evilmike> but they still ought to act more like statues for targeting, I think 07:41 < Jevouse> trees don't qualify as plants? 07:41 <+|amethyst> are statues half-LOS? 07:41 <+|amethyst> they don't 07:41 <+evilmike> only trees do that 07:41 <+|amethyst> trees are features, plants are creatures 07:42 < Jevouse> surpassingly strange for the plant god 07:42 <+|amethyst> I can rhyme some of the time 07:42 <+evilmike> trees are a lot like transparent wax if you think about it 07:43 <+evilmike> transparent, exploding wax 07:44 < Jevouse> wax burn too? 07:45 < Jevouse> or does it just melt 07:59 ۰۰-- evilmike [~evilmike@207.6.121.180] has quit [Quit: something happened] 08:04 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC] 08:04 ۰۰-- capablanca [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05 ۰۰-- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 08:07 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07 <+|amethyst> so, as for the liquids thing 08:09 <+|amethyst> I guess more shallow water relative to rock/stone/metal/lava/deep water isn't a great improvement 08:09 <+|amethyst> and that more floor would be best 08:11 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11 < Jevouse> stick trees in there! 08:11 < Jevouse> hahaha 08:11 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11 <+|amethyst> ha 08:12 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-006-200.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23 < Gretell> smarmy (L6 MiFi) ASSERT(count_valid > 0) in 'shopping.cc' at line 1940 failed. (D:4) 08:24 < Jevouse> ooh 08:24 < Jevouse> a bugbot 08:26 ۰۰-- ais523 [~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:27 < Jevouse> |amethyst, who edits the !apts for the bots? 08:28 <+|amethyst> I think those are handled in the Henzell source 08:28 < Jevouse> well someone changed Kenku to Tengu and didn't put the apts in 08:28 < Jevouse> its annoying 08:28 <+|amethyst> so probably greensnark (I think it's greensnark) needs to rebuild Henzell against the latest crawl source 08:28 < Jevouse> ah 08:30 < Jevouse> what do you think of buffing stab damage for polearms? 08:30 <+|amethyst> polearms don't need any more buffing 08:31 <+|amethyst> stabbing is the province of blades, especially short blades 08:32 <+|amethyst> the pointy polearms are somewhat better at stabbing than most non-blade weapons 08:32 <+|amethyst> (spears, tridents, demon tridents, and trishulas) 08:32 <+|amethyst> hm 08:32 < Jevouse> they are? 08:33 < Jevouse> eh? 08:33 <+|amethyst> actually, it looks like they're the same as long blades 08:33 < Jevouse> lol 08:33 < Jevouse> another unannounced change stabbing you in the back! 08:33 <+|amethyst> along with clubs (which also get the confusion bonus) 08:33 <+|amethyst> this has been so for quite a while I think 08:35 < Jevouse> not in changelog 08:35 < Jevouse> or henzell 08:36 < Jevouse> how are we supposed to know these things 08:36 < Jevouse> lol 08:37 <+|amethyst> reading the source, obviously :) 08:38 < Jevouse> ahh so we have to go code delving now? 08:38 < Jevouse> gah 08:39 < Jevouse> how would normal players ever know where to look? ehe 08:40 <+|amethyst> I guess no one bothered putting anything about it into henzell 08:40 <+|amethyst> Date: Tue Dec 29 13:21:09 2009 +0100 Give tier 3 (= long blade) stabbing bonuses to all 1-handed polearms. 08:41 < Jevouse> wooooow 08:41 < Jevouse> that makes merfolk stabbers so good 08:41 <+|amethyst> tier 3 isn't that great 08:41 < Jevouse> combined with reaching 08:41 < Jevouse> that means i don't have to make crazy stealth checks 08:42 < Jevouse> and stab people from 1 square away 08:42 <+|amethyst> something like 235% damage at max stabbing skill 08:42 < Jevouse> what's short blade max? 08:42 < Jevouse> and dagger max? 08:42 < Jevouse> in comparison 08:42 <+|amethyst> oops, make that 190% at max skill 08:43 <+|amethyst> short blades care about dex 08:43 <+|amethyst> for stabbing 08:43 < Jevouse> it caps at 30 08:43 < Jevouse> it says 08:43 < Jevouse> so assuming 30? 08:43 <+|amethyst> that's bonus damage *before* the multiplier 08:44 < Jevouse> yes 08:44 <+|amethyst> then the multiplier is up to 370% 08:44 < Jevouse> but the multiplier is fixed 08:44 < Jevouse> whoa 08:44 < Jevouse> 370%? 08:44 < Jevouse> lol 08:44 < Jevouse> so basically, daggers get this max more easily? 08:45 <+|amethyst> daggers get the max +30 bonus damage earlier 08:45 <+|amethyst> the multiplier is the same between daggers and other short blades 08:45 < Jevouse> ok 08:45 <+|amethyst> 370% is at 27 skill against a sleeping or paralysed opponent 08:45 < Jevouse> yeah i get it 08:46 < Jevouse> but then SBs suck at late game 08:46 < Jevouse> while polearms rock 08:46 <+|amethyst> they don't suck for stabbing 08:46 < Jevouse> but lategame you can't stab everything? 08:47 <+|amethyst> not everything, but if you've trained stealth (and use invisibility when appropriate) you can still get quite a few stabs off 08:47 < Jevouse> uh huh 08:47 <+|amethyst> even in zot 08:47 < Jevouse> and then you'll likely die against the ones you can't stab? 08:48 < Jevouse> since they have AC that makes SBs useless? 08:48 <+|amethyst> huh? 08:48 <+|amethyst> oh 08:48 <+|amethyst> well, if it's a quick blade of pain you'll be doing damage 08:48 < mikee_> usually doesn't work out that way 08:48 < mikee_> but i can see why you would think so 08:48 < Jevouse> it doesn't? 08:49 < Jevouse> quick blades are rare, right? 08:49 < Jevouse> and branded quick blades, rarer 08:49 <+|amethyst> yeah, but a sabre of pain isn't too shabby 08:49 <+|amethyst> anyone can get a pain brand 08:49 < Jevouse> can you vorpal pain? 08:49 <+|amethyst> you just have to worship kiku 08:49 < Jevouse> lol 08:49 <+|amethyst> (or cast excrutiating wounds, but that can't be made permanent) 08:49 < Jevouse> so to be a stabber 08:49 < Jevouse> you either have to delve into Ne 08:49 < Jevouse> or worship kiku? 08:50 < mikee_> no 08:50 <+|amethyst> or use spells for your backup damage 08:50 < mikee_> you can stab or run away from anything 08:50 < mikee_> or just kill stuff that you can't stab by wacking it to death 08:50 < mikee_> or yeah use spells or anything else 08:51 <+|amethyst> If you put all your three-rune XP into stabbing and stealth then you might be in trouble 08:51 <+|amethyst> but you can max those and still have XP left over for other things 08:51 < mikee_> it means that you have to ninja some things 08:52 < Jevouse> mmm well with the huge stealth nerf 08:52 <+|amethyst> pay more attention to mikee than me, btw. I'm a lousy player :) 08:52 < Jevouse> (how huge?it doesn't say) you get even less xp now, isn't that so? 08:53 < Jevouse> to spread around 08:53 <+|amethyst> it costs 80% of most skills, instead of 50% 08:53 < Jevouse> wow 08:53 < Jevouse> that's...+160% 08:53 < Jevouse> lol 08:54 <+|amethyst> the 50% was necessary because, before 0.9, it was so hard to actually get XP to go into stealth 08:54 <+|amethyst> you had to victory dance it 08:54 < Jevouse> for a skill that basically requires other skills to be effective 08:54 <+|amethyst> by walking around and not being seen 08:55 < Jevouse> well, what can you do with stealth alone? 08:55 < Jevouse> sneak around monsters? 08:55 <+|amethyst> zotwaltz :) 08:55 < Jevouse> hahaha 08:55 < ghallberg> You do not simply dance into Yot! 08:55 < ghallberg> z* 08:55 <+|amethyst> of course it's not going to be your only skill 08:55 < Jevouse> yeah but i mean its heavily reliant on other skills 08:55 <+|amethyst> it's not that stealth was too easy to get in 0.8 08:55 < Jevouse> so its like, a mini skill 08:56 <+|amethyst> rather, it became too easy to get once manual training went in 08:56 <+|amethyst> 50% was an incredibly low base cost compared to any other skill 08:56 < Jevouse> yeah, but who will spend huge amounts of exp on stealth? 08:56 <+|amethyst> lots of people, I imagine 08:57 < Jevouse> like, a stabber needs short blades + dodging + fighting + stealth+ stabbing 08:57 < Jevouse> correct me if i'm wrong 08:57 < Jevouse> so now stealth just drains more exp away from the rest 08:57 <+|amethyst> stealth helps reduce the need for short blades and fighting 08:57 <+|amethyst> since you don't need much sbl skill to do massive stabs 08:58 <+|amethyst> and you don't need fighting HP if the enemies aren't waking up 08:58 < Jevouse> stealth increases stab damage?? 08:58 <+|amethyst> no 08:58 <+|amethyst> stabbing does 08:58 < Jevouse> right 08:58 < Jevouse> ah ok 08:58 <+|amethyst> and stealth is cheaper than stabbing still 08:59 <+|amethyst> it's one of the three cheapest skills (along with invo and evo) 08:59 < Jevouse> invo and evo are 80% skills too? 08:59 <+|amethyst> yes 08:59 <+|amethyst> and spellcasting is 130% 09:00 <+|amethyst> everything else is normal 09:00 < Jevouse> oh 09:00 < Jevouse> speaking about spellcasting 09:00 < Jevouse> why was ogre nerfed more 09:00 < Jevouse> lol 09:00 <+|amethyst> Here's what the old comment said about stealth's base cost of 50: 09:00 < Jevouse> aren't they already crap 09:01 <+|amethyst> // Quick fix for the fact that stealth can't be gained fast enough 09:01 <+|amethyst> // to keep up with the monster levels. This was a skill points bonus 09:01 <+|amethyst> // in _exercise2 and was changed to a reduced base_cost to keep 09:01 <+|amethyst> // total_skill_points progression the same for all skills. 09:01 < Jevouse> way worse than Tr 09:01 <+|amethyst> what nerf is that? 09:01 < Jevouse> spellcasting was reduced from +3 to +2 09:01 < Jevouse> and nothing given in exchange with regards to magic 09:02 <+|amethyst> when was it +3? 09:02 < Jevouse> .91 09:02 < Jevouse> i know it was +3 then 09:03 <+|amethyst> no 09:03 < Jevouse> no? 09:03 <+|amethyst> it's +2 in 0.9 09:03 < Jevouse> oh my bad 09:03 < Jevouse> nevermind 09:04 < Jevouse> yes 09:04 < Jevouse> i mean 09:04 < Jevouse> Ogre is unchanged 09:04 <+|amethyst> the only recent "nerf" I can think of is that they start with maces instead of ankuses 09:04 < Jevouse> but its still pretty bad 09:04 < Jevouse> ah, that too 09:04 < Jevouse> lol 09:05 <+|amethyst> ogres aren't really intended to be an easy race 09:05 <+|amethyst> though I hear they're not terrible 09:05 <+|amethyst> I'm a pretty lousy player though 09:05 < Jevouse> how are they not terrible? 09:05 <+|amethyst> +2 spellcasting aptitude :) 09:05 < Jevouse> lol 09:05 <+|amethyst> and +3 fighting, +3 m/f 09:06 <+|amethyst> but they're not great 09:06 < Jevouse> does spellcasting matter that much when you have -3 to every spell school 09:06 <+|amethyst> ??ogre[3] 09:06 < Henzell> ogre[3/4]: in shocking news ogres are bad at things 09:06 < Jevouse> yeah i know they're not meant to be an easy race 09:06 < Jevouse> but uh they may have gone a little too far in the opposite direction? 09:07 < Jevouse> like, my Felids and Octopodes survive for longer than my ogres 09:08 <+|amethyst> ??ogre reasons[3] 09:08 < Henzell> ogre reasons[3/10]: You don't like winning. 09:08 <+|amethyst> oops 09:08 < Jevouse> basically if i don't get a nice M&F weapon i'm fucked 09:08 < Jevouse> what 09:08 <+|amethyst> ??ogre reasons[7] 09:08 < Henzell> ogre reasons[7/10]: think of them as big hungry mummies 09:08 <+|amethyst> that's the one I wanted 09:08 < Jevouse> mummies cast spells! 09:09 <+|amethyst> ogres' aptitudes aren't much worse than mummies' 09:09 < Jevouse> Ogres miscast them! 09:09 <+|amethyst> mummies have 0 spc and -2 schools 09:09 <+|amethyst> ogres have +2 spc and -3 schools 09:09 < Jevouse> mummies have 0 in nec 09:09 <+|amethyst> true 09:09 < Jevouse> and no food clock, no hunger, and +2 to nec eventually 09:10 < Jevouse> oh and -1 to hexes 09:10 < Jevouse> and i hear mummies are pretty damn good 09:10 < Jevouse> because they can spam spells all day with sif 09:11 <+|amethyst> it doesn't prove anything at all, but: 09:11 <+|amethyst> !lg * og / win 09:11 < Sequell> 29753 games for * (og): N=170/29753 (0.57%) 09:11 <+|amethyst> !lg * mu / win 09:11 < Sequell> 84766 games for * (mu): N=237/84766 (0.28%) 09:11 <+|amethyst> probably a good chunk of that lower percentage is because of their popularity 09:11 < Jevouse> i attribute that to mummies popularity 09:12 <+|amethyst> but the raw number of wins isn't that far off 09:12 < Jevouse> isn't far off? 09:12 < Jevouse> almost 40% 09:12 < Jevouse> !lg * Sp / win 09:12 < Sequell> 90169 games for * (Sp): N=497/90169 (0.55%) 09:12 < Jevouse> !lg * Ce / win 09:12 < Sequell> 13333 games for * (Ce): N=156/13333 (1.17%) 09:13 <+|amethyst> In any event, there are AFAIK no current plans to buff ogres 09:13 < Jevouse> heh Ce 09:13 < Jevouse> clearly a sneaky race 09:14 < Jevouse> no current plans? hrmm 09:14 < Jevouse> why don't you just let ogres start with giant spiked clubs ? :D 09:14 < Jevouse> hehe 09:14 <+|amethyst> that would make them even worse for new players 09:15 < Jevouse> or choose between one handed maces and two handed ankii 09:15 <+|amethyst> because they would be tempted to use them 09:15 < Jevouse> like before 09:15 < Jevouse> err 09:15 < Jevouse> i mean 09:15 < Jevouse> one handed and two handed 09:16 < Jevouse> ankuses are one handed 09:16 ۰۰-- monqy [~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 09:16 < Jevouse> yeah, why downgrade their starting weaponry anywy? 09:16 < Jevouse> what was the reason given for that 09:17 <+|amethyst> "Similarly to Merfolk who used to get their spears upgraded to tridents for free, it just doesn't really make a lot of sense." 09:17 <+|amethyst> There was more discussion on here, but I don't remember it 09:17 < Jevouse> well you can argue that 09:17 <+|amethyst> that's before I was a dev 09:17 < Jevouse> Ogres would use ankuses 09:17 < Jevouse> naturally 09:17 < Jevouse> and not maces 09:17 < Jevouse> like, they would use the large equivalent of maces 09:17 < Jevouse> which are ankuses 09:18 < Jevouse> large weapon for a large race 09:18 < Jevouse> and not use puny maces 09:18 < Jevouse> that makes sense, doesn't it? 09:18 < Jevouse> lol 09:18 <+|amethyst> how are ankuses larger? 09:18 <+|amethyst> I mean, they do more damage, but they're both 1H and both 12aum 09:18 < Jevouse> they do more damage, they are described as being larger? 09:18 < Jevouse> ah 09:18 < Jevouse> then reweight ankuses 09:19 < Jevouse> nerfing ogres more doesn't make sense 09:19 <+|amethyst> I'm not even sure why ankuses are in maces and flails 09:19 <+|amethyst> it's pointy and has a hook 09:19 <+|amethyst> it's more like a polearm if anything 09:20 < Jevouse> actually 09:20 < Jevouse> that's very true 09:20 < Jevouse> lol 09:21 < Jevouse> so, replace ankuses with something more flavoursome, and let large races use the replacement? 09:21 <+|amethyst> in any event, ankus versus mace as the starting weapon makes little difference probably 09:21 <+|amethyst> they're both too slow to want to use on D:1 09:21 ۰۰-- HangedMan [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21 < Jevouse> well, ogres don't have problem with D:1 i think 09:21 < Jevouse> they can just bash their way through 09:22 < Jevouse> the multifarious fauna 09:22 <+|amethyst> d:2 on the other hand :) 09:22 < Jevouse> yeah exactly 09:22 <+|amethyst> ??ogre reasons[10] 09:22 < Henzell> ogre reasons[10/10]: ogen has deceptively high hp that might make you think it can melee an unarmed gnoll 09:22 < Jevouse> sigmund, and out of depth creatures 09:22 < Jevouse> damage always comes in handy for ogres 09:23 < Jevouse> since they have the M&F skill to compensate for accuracy 09:24 < Jevouse> and their skill apt pretty much means bash enemy to death before he does 09:26 < Jevouse> since they can't dodge for nuts or wear armour 09:26 < Jevouse> so the enemy can just whale away on your deceptively high hp 09:26 <+|amethyst> !lg og won / cls 09:26 < Sequell> Malformed argument: cls 09:26 <+|amethyst> !lg og won / class 09:26 < Sequell> Malformed argument: class 09:27 <+|amethyst> oop 09:27 <+|amethyst> !lg og won s=cls 09:27 < Sequell> No games for og (won) 09:27 <+|amethyst> !lg * og won s=cls 09:27 < Sequell> 170 games for * (og won): 27x Berserker, 16x Hunter, 15x Wanderer, 14x Fire Elementalist, 7x Fighter, 7x Wizard, 7x Conjurer, 6x Transmuter, 6x Gladiator, 6x Summoner, 5x Venom Mage, 5x Crusader, 4x Reaver, 4x Death Knight, 4x Ice Elementalist, 4x Earth Elementalist, 3x Air Elementalist, 3x Necromancer, 3x Assassin, 3x Healer, 2x Artificer, 2x Stalker, 2x Priest, 2x Monk, 2x Abyssal Knight, 2x Enc... 09:27 < mikee_> i was about to help 09:27 < mikee_> !lg * og won / s=class 09:27 < Sequell> undefined method `<<' for nil:NilClass 09:27 < mikee_> !lg * og won/s=class 09:27 < Sequell> undefined method `<<' for nil:NilClass 09:27 < Jevouse> 14x FE?? 09:27 < mikee_> oh that doesn't even work 09:27 < Jevouse> 15x Wn?? 09:28 < mikee_> ogfe was an old nemelex choice in the tournament 09:28 < mikee_> and ogwn is because people are masochists 09:28 < Jevouse> OgFE and nemelex go together how? 09:28 < Jevouse> he sacs all the stuff, get cards 09:28 < Jevouse> and ? 09:28 < mikee_> in 2009, nemelex choices were chosen out of combos that had never been won 09:29 <+|amethyst> nemelex's choice was a tournament thing 09:29 < Jevouse> ah 09:29 < Jevouse> ok 09:29 < mikee_> it's thematic with nemelex because the selections are random 09:29 < Jevouse> nemelex Xombeh 09:29 <+|amethyst> nemelex picks a random combo, and the first N players to win that combo get bonus points 09:29 < mikee_> kind of =P 09:29 <+|amethyst> err, or just the banner 09:29 < Jevouse> i have discovered the secret 09:29 <+|amethyst> or was it both? 09:29 < mikee_> it was both the points and banner, yeah 09:30 < mikee_> and probably still will be in the coming tournament 09:30 <+|amethyst> so the abyss liquids thing 09:30 < Jevouse> ehe 09:30 <+|amethyst> should abyss be more open or more closed? 09:30 < Jevouse> more abyss like 09:30 < Jevouse> pits please 09:31 < Jevouse> trees! 09:31 <+|amethyst> pits? 09:31 < Jevouse> yes 09:31 < Jevouse> like trees 09:31 < Jevouse> but empty! 09:31 <+|amethyst> you mean, deep water? 09:31 <+|amethyst> or lava 09:31 <+|amethyst> that's the whole problem 09:31 < Jevouse> no you don't die if you go inside 09:31 < mikee_> imo it should be more open and should have much fewer fluids 09:31 <+|amethyst> so like floor? 09:31 < mikee_> the main source of annoyance is how it screws with your ability to move on a constant basis 09:31 < Jevouse> impeded floor 09:31 <+|amethyst> so shallow water 09:32 < Jevouse> shallow water favours MF 09:32 < mikee_> my ideal abyss has 0 fluids 09:32 < Jevouse> this will fuck all racs 09:32 < Jevouse> races 09:32 < Jevouse> :D 09:32 < mikee_> and a minimum of dead ends 09:32 < Jevouse> MF and OP 09:32 < Jevouse> actually 09:32 <+|amethyst> mikee_: so somewhat fewer "walls", and many more of those "walls" should be real walls instead of fluids? 09:32 < mikee_> yeah 09:32 <+|amethyst> what about glass? 09:33 < phyphor> Jevouse: and Kenku, right? 09:33 < mikee_> this is just what i think would be best. my ideas could be considered radical 09:33 < mikee_> i am philosophically against glass 09:33 <+|amethyst> and, for that matter, trees? 09:33 < Jevouse> and kenku 09:33 < mikee_> also against trees 09:33 < Jevouse> you could call it distortionally slow space 09:33 < Jevouse> if you like 09:33 < Jevouse> it IS the abyss, after all 09:33 < mikee_> mostly i would just like travel to be as smooth as possible and for challenge to come from some other means 09:33 <+|amethyst> Jevouse: so perm-leda's 09:33 < Jevouse> leda's/ 09:33 < Jevouse> ? 09:33 < mikee_> this makes the challenge realer and easier to adjust 09:34 <+|amethyst> mikee_: what about shallow water? 09:34 < Jevouse> yes 09:34 <+|amethyst> ??leda's liquefaction 09:34 < Jevouse> something like that 09:34 < Henzell> ledas liquefaction[1/2]: Level 4 earth/tmut spell, found in the book of the Earth. Generates a halo of "liquefied" ground around the caster. Moving on liquefied ground has a -3 player movement malus (slightly more than one item of ponderousness). Applies slow effect to monsters. Doesn't affect flying, clinging, insubstantials; cannot be cast by these. 09:34 < Jevouse> but affecting every race 09:34 < mikee_> shallow water is sort of bad 09:34 < Jevouse> flying, clinging, insubstantials 09:34 < Jevouse> w/e 09:34 < mikee_> obviously not as bad as lava or deep water 09:35 <+|amethyst> right now a "wall" has 50% chance to be wall and 50% to be liquid (1/6 rock, 1/6 stone, 1/6 metal, 1/6 lava, 1/6 deep, 1/6 shallow) 09:35 < mikee_> that is insanely high to me 09:35 <+|amethyst> what about the rock-stone-metal balance? 09:35 < Jevouse> add deep + lava together and introduce ledas 09:35 <+|amethyst> still keep them even? 09:36 <+|amethyst> I'm not implementing perm-leda's anytime soon, though someone else might decide to 09:36 < mikee_> i think more rock and less metal/stone would be better 09:36 < mikee_> maybe 70/20/10? 09:36 < HangedMan> of course, digging doesn't work properly in abyss 09:36 <+|amethyst> oh right 09:36 <+|amethyst> forgot about that 09:36 < mikee_> you can still do it 09:37 < mikee_> it's just kind of crappy 09:37 <+|amethyst> you just have to be next to the wall to get much use out of it :) 09:37 < Jevouse> oh boy 09:37 <+|amethyst> the big problem with changing the balance is saves 09:38 < mikee_> that's one big problem, yeah 09:38 <+|amethyst> basically there's no way to change that stuff and not have the layout change drastically next turn 09:38 < mikee_> also i imagine it's hard to get it right 09:38 < mikee_> considering that the abyss has a unique purpose but also so many existent problems 09:39 < phyphor> the biggest problem is that there's no one asking the right question 09:39 < mikee_> i once suggested that banishment places you near a gate but drastically increases the monster difficulty 09:39 < mikee_> also i once suggested that banishment just instakills you 09:40 < Jevouse> insta kill isn't sadistic enough 09:40 < phyphor> without knowing what abyss needs to be you can't adequately determine how it should appear 09:40 < mikee_> do we not know what it needs to be? 09:40 < phyphor> it appears not 09:40 < mikee_> afaik it is supposed to be a place of punishment 09:40 < HangedMan> with weird things in it 09:41 < mikee_> practically it's just swamp with demons 09:41 < Jevouse> with illusionary gates that might not work 09:41 < phyphor> how deadly is it supposed to be? 09:42 < phyphor> should it even be swamp like? or should it just be a feutureless expanse of things killing you? 09:42 < Jevouse> it should dangle your life on a thin thread 09:42 <+|amethyst> how about: 1/3 rock, 1/6 stone, 1/12 metal, 1/12 tree, 1/6 shallow water, 1/12 deep water, 1/12 lava ? 09:42 < mikee_> deadliness is a good question 09:42 < Jevouse> and you have to claw your way back up to live 09:42 < phyphor> should it be hard to get away (in which case walls should be mainly walls, then lava, then water) 09:42 <+|amethyst> (or glass instead of trees) 09:42 < mikee_> i know some people want its danger to scale so that it's also dangerous for all rune characters 09:42 < Jevouse> treees 09:42 < HangedMan> what, no tiny chance for green crystal? 09:42 <+|amethyst> oh, that's an idea 09:42 < Jevouse> scaling danger sounds good 09:43 < mikee_> |amethyst, that would be an improvement 09:43 < phyphor> in other words you can't get past, or you can with flying, or you can if you can swim 09:43 <+|amethyst> right now if you see green crystal you know it's a vault 09:43 < mikee_> not sure what the actual numbers would look like without seeing them (i am not good at numbers) 09:43 < HangedMan> not necessarily 09:43 < mikee_> do we need glass or trees at all though? 09:43 < HangedMan> late, deep vaults can have it as a border or as the entire thing 09:43 < Jevouse> well, can you scale it such taht the odds of surviving are teh same for all XL? 09:43 < HangedMan> and there's also the winding cavern layout 09:44 <+|amethyst> replace that 1/12 trees with 1/12 crystal then 09:44 <+|amethyst> I was thinking trees because it makes fire interesting 09:44 < Eronarn> Jevouse: no, that's not possible 09:45 < Jevouse> well then give an easier ride to lower XLs and a harder experience to higher XLs 09:45 <+|amethyst> then you want to get banished as soon as possible 09:45 <+|amethyst> to get the rune easily 09:45 < Jevouse> and if you have gotten runes, well, turn it up! 09:45 < phyphor> unless you have different "abysses" 09:45 < Jevouse> goes for the abyss rune as well 09:46 < HangedMan> easily get the rune, when the rune vaults are kind of nasty in most cases 09:46 <+|amethyst> true 09:46 < HangedMan> and a 90% chance for said rune vault 09:46 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!] 09:46 ۰۰-- capablanca [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46 < HangedMan> there are also abyss exits with pit fiends 09:46 ۰۰-- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 09:46 < Jevouse> linking abyss difficulty to XL and no. of runes gotten 09:47 < Jevouse> and make it a requirement that to get abyss rune you need at least one other 09:47 < mikee_> personally i don't care for relative difficulty 09:47 < HangedMan> there's also an exit with an executioner 09:47 < mikee_> there's no precedent for it at all 09:47 < HangedMan> and silenced hellephants 09:48 <+|amethyst> Jevouse: what is the goal of your suggestion? 09:48 < phyphor> I was considering, would it be difficult to make what the abyss generates based on what you have? 09:48 < phyphor> which would mean you'd need a rune to get a rune 09:48 < Jevouse> flavour being that Lugonu does not give up her rune unless she can get one 09:48 <+|amethyst> so you'd have to give up a rune to get the abyssal one? 09:48 < HangedMan> and a kraken and an ocs 09:48 < Jevouse> no 09:48 < Jevouse> you'd have to have a rune 09:49 < HangedMan> no, the idea is that she wants you dead 09:49 < Jevouse> to get the ruen vault to appear 09:49 <+|amethyst> ah 09:49 < Jevouse> yes 09:49 < mikee_> i think being able to get the abyssal rune as your first rune is a cool effect already 09:49 < mikee_> and is worth keeping 09:49 < HangedMan> that is one lucky warper who survives lich closets 09:49 < mikee_> adding challenges to this with vaults is ok but a hard requirement maybe not? 09:49 < Eronarn> imo link abyss difficulty to a combo of A) time spent in abyss B) use of abyss-attention-grabbing effects C) lugonu wrath incurred (never goes away) 09:49 < mikee_> i survived my first lich closet! 09:49 < mikee_> with no idea what it was 09:49 < mikee_> and with no other runes 09:50 < Jevouse> abyss-attention-grabbing effects? 09:50 < mikee_> link abyss difficulty to how good your character is 09:50 < mikee_> like, you know, the difficulty of everything else in the game 09:50 < Jevouse> eh 09:50 < HangedMan> if carried slaying is over 20 then make abyss spell out "screw you mikee" and spawn nothing but liquids 09:50 < Jevouse> does that mean sigmund gets meaner if you ignore him 09:51 < Jevouse> and go lower 09:51 < Ragdoll> no, instead make abyss exit portal mimics 09:51 < HangedMan> yesssssss 09:51 < Jevouse> illusionary exits becoming portal mimics! 09:51 < Eronarn> Jevouse: like make SHT attract the attention of the abyss 09:51 < Ragdoll> relative easiness will go up as people mentioned seeing a abyss exit before dying 09:51 < Ragdoll> plus you can try your link trying to rblink on the exit! 09:51 < Jevouse> SHT? 09:51 < Ragdoll> luck* 09:52 < HangedMan> sht, malign gateway, banishing things with distortion or chaos 09:52 < Jevouse> ahhhh 09:52 < HangedMan> um, 09:52 < Jevouse> worshipping a good god 09:52 < Jevouse> killing things 09:52 < mikee_> Ragdoll, shhh 09:52 < HangedMan> killing things in the abyss, you mean? 09:52 < Jevouse> err 09:52 < mikee_> that's our secret mimic tech 09:52 < Jevouse> killing things while worshipping a good god? 09:52 < Eronarn> SHT = summon horrible things 09:52 < Jevouse> heh 09:53 < Eronarn> and yeah, malign gateway too, and disto. maybe high level tloc miscasts 09:53 < Jevouse> well lugonu doesn't like good gods, that's for sure 09:53 < HangedMan> actually you've just inspired me to make exit vaults with abyss exit mimics and an abyssal rune vault with tons of abyssal rune mimics 09:53 < HangedMan> which would be both vexing and acceptable since there's one real one right 09:53 < Eronarn> lugonu not liking good gods could be a flat multiplier or something 09:53 < Jevouse> and lugonu altar mimics 09:53 < Jevouse> for people who THINK to get the easy way out! 09:53 < Jevouse> hahaha 09:54 < HangedMan> altar mimics aren't in for some weird reason 09:54 <+|amethyst> HangedMan: remember the bug 09:54 < Jevouse> one real altar 09:54 < Jevouse> for the lulz 09:54 <+|amethyst> which will hopefully be fixed, but isn't yet 09:54 < HangedMan> yes, but blinking is already a crapshoot in abyss 09:54 < mikee_> who thought up altar mimics 09:54 <+|amethyst> good point 09:54 < Ragdoll> FR: let the orb of zot constrict enemies in zotdef 09:55 < Ragdoll> since i dont think you people have enough constriction headaches yet 09:55 < Jevouse> altar mimics aren't in yet? 09:55 < Jevouse> come on 09:56 < Ragdoll> do we have wall mimics yet? 09:56 < Jevouse> Zin/Kiku altar mimics! 09:56 < Jevouse> wahaha 09:56 < Jevouse> and TSO too 09:56 < Eronarn> orb mimics 09:56 < Jevouse> the orb doesn't like mimics of itself 09:57 < Jevouse> It is le most powerful artifact! 09:57 < mikee_> how about monster mimics 09:57 < mikee_> the ogre is actually a stone giant! 09:57 < Jevouse> those are shapeshifters 09:57 < mikee_> hm 09:57 < Jevouse> already done 09:58 < HangedMan> that does give me a small idea 09:58 < Jevouse> a ...vault of mimicry? 09:58 < HangedMan> perm_ench:shapeshifter can be used to sort of do that by making a shapeshifter have a forced first appearance 09:59 < Jevouse> or is that already done 09:59 < HangedMan> not predictable as to what it then results as but it could be interesting 09:59 < HangedMan> the closest to a mimic vault is the classic one of the guardian serpent anyway 09:59 < Jevouse> HangedMan...mimic labyrinth? 09:59 < Jevouse> :P 09:59 < Jevouse> it LOOKS easy 09:59 < Jevouse> but hey guess what! 09:59 < HangedMan> I think I'd incur fifty different people's wrath if I did that 10:00 < Jevouse> you already do 10:00 < Jevouse> what's new 10:00 < HangedMan> !lg * map=~hangedman 10:00 < Sequell> 21. talkingcatjazzcat the Skirmisher (L9 MiFi), worshipper of Okawaru, slain by a merfolk (a +0,+0 spear) on D:7 (hangedman fish farm) on 2011-12-30, with 2272 points after 7050 turns and 0:22:21. 10:00 < Jevouse> crawl doesn't want you to survive anyway 10:00 < HangedMan> I will jot down "labrynth exit with minotaur shapeshifter and loot mimics with the real exit hiding behind it" as a vault, though 10:00 < mikee_> can you use it to make a shapeshifter look like something that cannot normally be a shapeshifter? 10:00 < mikee_> such as an orc wizard 10:01 < HangedMan> probably 10:01 < mikee_> that would be the best use i can imagine for it 10:01 < HangedMan> well, not an orc itself, because beogh shenanigans 10:01 < mikee_> place like 6 orcs and a shapeshifter with the orc wizard appearance 10:01 <+|amethyst> !lg * map=~hangedman s=map 10:01 < Sequell> 21 games for * (map=~hangedman): 8x hangedman tree tricks, 6x hangedman fish farm, 3x hangedman pestilent swarm, 2x hangedman ranch, hangedman stone soup, hangedman abyss rune macabre mess 10:01 < mikee_> well that's just one example 10:01 < mikee_> there are plenty of monsters like that 10:01 < mikee_> oh hey can you make it look like a zombie =P 10:02 < HangedMan> I should probably tone down those tree tricks 10:02 < HangedMan> let me find out right now 10:02 < Jevouse> trees are nasty 10:02 < mikee_> trees are bizarre in function 10:02 < mikee_> mikee does not approve of them 10:02 < HangedMan> abyssal druid with awaken abyss 10:03 < HangedMan> and malign gateway and summon ugly thing and smiting 10:03 < mikee_> oh hey 10:03 < HangedMan> then evilmike's vaults don't need redefinition monsters 10:03 < mikee_> here is a vault idea for you 10:03 < HangedMan> oh no 10:03 < mikee_> ......XYZ 10:03 < mikee_> . is a path with trees on the side. X is lava. Y is a spriggan druid. Z is a siren 10:03 < Jevouse> err 10:04 < Jevouse> no! no pls! 10:04 < HangedMan> hah 10:04 < Jevouse> btw 10:04 < HangedMan> oh wow, undead shapeshifter works 10:04 < mikee_> this is even better than my other vault 10:04 < Jevouse> who did that nice Kiku vault with Zombie fish in deep water along the sides 10:04 < mikee_> it's a yred vault, isn't it 10:04 <+elliptic> that's a yred vault and it is ancient 10:04 < Jevouse> ah 10:04 < Jevouse> yred 10:04 < Jevouse> yeah 10:04 < Eronarn> a shapeshifter ghost would be a cool unique 10:05 < Jevouse> i must thank him for the best xp vault ever 10:05 < HangedMan> undead shapeshifter doesn't want to turn into zombies, though 10:05 < mikee_> a shapeshifter that turns into different undead would be great 10:05 < Jevouse> Yred has the right idea though 10:06 < Jevouse> give adventurers free xp 10:06 < Jevouse> and they'll join him! 10:07 < Jevouse> afaik no other god has a like vault! 10:07 < HangedMan> if the undead shapeshifter turns into a silent spectre it has no silence aura, and if it starts as a silent spectre it always will 10:09 < Jevouse> well, mikee_, do you know any? 10:09 < HangedMan> or, rather, if it turns into a silent spectre it will have a silence aura and then never lose it so um 10:09 < mikee_> depends what you would consider alike to it 10:09 < mikee_> one that gives free xp? 10:09 < Jevouse> yes 10:09 < mikee_> there is a similar kiku vault with a human behind glass 10:09 < Eronarn> HangedMan: that's easily fixable 10:10 < mikee_> potentially you can kill it or the zombie it turns into for xp 10:10 < Jevouse> human behind glass requires true smite? 10:10 < HangedMan> digging 10:10 < Jevouse> hrm, so its harder 10:10 < mikee_> and on the subject of glass there are a lot of problematic vaults with monsters stuck behind them 10:10 < Jevouse> and less xp 10:10 < mikee_> such as entrance vaults 10:11 < Jevouse> it is -just- a vanilla human mikee_? 10:11 < HangedMan> such as 10:11 < mikee_> yeah 10:11 < mikee_> @??human 10:11 < Gretell> human (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 3-67 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 246. 10:11 < Jevouse> yeah, crap xp 10:11 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L5 MuSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster crimson imp failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 10:11 < Jevouse> @?? giant fish 10:11 < Gretell> unknown monster: "giant fish" 10:11 < Jevouse> @?? giant goldfish 10:11 < Gretell> giant goldfish (;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 25-51 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 15 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(28), drown | XP: 124. 10:11 < mikee_> no ashenzari.. 10:11 < Ragdoll> what 10:11 < Ragdoll> the fuck 10:11 < Ragdoll> fuck. 10:11 < Jevouse> i gained like 10:11 < Jevouse> 3 levels off that one vault 10:12 < Jevouse> just by poking the zombie fish with a spear 10:12 < Jevouse> there were 4 i believe 10:12 < HangedMan> @??big fish zombie 10:12 < Gretell> big fish zombie (z) | Speed: 8 | HD: 4 | Health: 24-44 | AC/EV: 0/7 | Damage: 6 | Flags: undead, evil | Res: magic(1), cold++, poison, drown, rot, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 27. 10:12 < Jevouse> ehe 10:12 < HangedMan> @??giant goldfish zombie 10:12 < Gretell> giant goldfish zombie (z) | Speed: 8 | HD: 7 | Health: 45-73 | AC/EV: 3/2 | Damage: 12 | Flags: undead, evil | Res: magic(1), cold++, poison, drown, rot, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 123. 10:12 < HangedMan> ehhhhhh 10:12 < Jevouse> yeah ,giant goldfish zombie 10:12 < Jevouse> s 10:12 < HangedMan> in the development plan is "review vaults to remove reaching abuses" 10:13 < Jevouse> nooooooooooo 10:13 < Eronarn> @??big fish 10:13 < Gretell> big fish (;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-31 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 8 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(16), drown | XP: 41. 10:13 < Eronarn> @??giant goldfish 10:13 < Gretell> giant goldfish (;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 25-51 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 15 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(28), drown | XP: 124. 10:13 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 10:13 < Eronarn> why do big fish only have 1 AC 10:13 ۰۰-- capablanca [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:14 ۰۰-- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 10:14 < Jevouse> don't nerf it too hard ! 10:15 < Jevouse> let the fish zombies live! 10:15 < Jevouse> wait a minute 10:15 <+|amethyst> okay, I pushed a branch with my abyss changes, for testing 10:15 < Jevouse> i recall another vault like it 10:15 <+|amethyst> abyss-changes-nfm 10:15 < Jevouse> @?? wizard 10:15 < Gretell> wizard (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 26-55 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 6 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(53) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 688 | Sp: b.venom (3d15), mystic blast (3d15), invisibility, confuse, slow, teleport self / magic dart (3d5), paralyse, haste, b.lightning (3d17), confuse, teleport self / paralyse, throw flame (3d8), invisibility, teleport other, fireball (3d19) / petrify, crystal s.. 10:15 < Jevouse> yes! 10:15 < Jevouse> the Trog vault with the wizard behind glass! 10:15 < HangedMan> hehehe 10:16 < Jevouse> but the wizard is likely to splat you 10:16 <+|amethyst> @?? terrified wizard 10:16 < Gretell> terrified wizard (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 26-55 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 6 | Flags: spellcaster, vault | Res: magic(53) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 568. 10:16 < Jevouse> ah 10:16 < Jevouse> yes 10:16 < Jevouse> that one 10:16 < Jevouse> eh?? wow 10:16 < Jevouse> but 10:16 < Jevouse> doesn't trog kill the wizard 10:16 < Jevouse> before you go inside 10:17 <+|amethyst> I'm sure there's some way to avoid that 10:17 <+|amethyst> players are creative 10:17 < mikee_> i wouldn't worry about free xp too much 10:17 < mikee_> in a way, like 90% of xp is free anyway 10:17 < Jevouse> well this is like giving you xp on a platter 10:17 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ [~MarvinPA@85.210.102.249] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v MarvinPA_] by ChanServ 10:17 < Jevouse> with even less hassle than usual 10:17 < Jevouse> its just flat out TAKE MEEEE 10:18 < mikee_> i don't think it's ever affected my games in a real way 10:18 <+elliptic> don't you have to go next to the fish zombies to kill them, and then they hit you? 10:18 ۰۰-- edlothiol [~edlothiol@ip-95-223-51-38.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:18 < Jevouse> elliptic : reaching 10:18 <+elliptic> wait, you can still use reaching on submerged monsters? 10:18 < mikee_> this also applies to regular fish 10:18 < Jevouse> no 10:18 < Jevouse> they don't submerge 10:18 <+elliptic> I thought they did, hm 10:18 < Jevouse> if you come close enough they surface 10:19 < Jevouse> or maybe they just don't submerge... 10:19 < Jevouse> hrm 10:19 < mikee_> this also applies to any monster with less speed than you 10:19 <+|amethyst> I've got to go. Folks, test out abyss-changes-nfm . 10:19 < Jevouse> how do i get the branch with .git? 10:21 < Jevouse> true mikee_ 10:21 <+|amethyst> git checkout abyss-changes-nfm 10:21 < Jevouse> but eh, i don't think 90% of the monsters have slower speed than you....or are regular fish... 10:21 < Jevouse> unless you play Sp or Ce 10:22 < Jevouse> thanks neil 10:22 <+|amethyst> the changes are: jerky morphing; slightly more open layout; significantly fewer liquids, especially the impassable ones 10:22 < Jevouse> i shall start an abyss knight! 10:22 <+|amethyst> one thing I noticed 10:22 <+|amethyst> AKs can easily start surrounded by walls, lava, whatever 10:23 < Jevouse> do they start on an exit? 10:23 <+|amethyst> and since it isn't constantly morphing, you might have to wait a bit 10:23 < Jevouse> or how near do they start to an exit 10:23 <+|amethyst> they start on an altar, but they have enough piety to use lugonu's first ability 10:23 < Jevouse> ah eh 10:23 <+|amethyst> they start near a portal, though not necessarily in sight of it 10:23 < Jevouse> the portal will not morph? 10:24 <+elliptic> well, the AI for fish zombies does seem rather strange 10:24 <+elliptic> I feel like it used to be better 10:24 <+|amethyst> not sure about that 10:24 <+|amethyst> I didn't touch any of that code 10:24 < Jevouse> elliptic: they appear if someone comes within two squares, right? 10:24 <+|amethyst> my changes are actually quite small in terms of amount of code 10:24 < mikee_> oh by 90% i didn't mean just those 10:25 <+|amethyst> later 10:25 < mikee_> i just meant things that can be killed without special tactics 10:25 <+elliptic> jevouse: maybe, but they also like to get into a state where they could move next to you but don't 10:25 < mikee_> without risk 10:25 <+elliptic> even while you are hitting them with reaching 10:25 <+elliptic> and they don't seem to resubmerge ever 10:25 < Jevouse> yeah..that's odd 10:25 < Jevouse> a fix! ahaha 10:26 < Jevouse> they are mindless so they should be aggressively mindless 10:26 < Jevouse> and appear when they sense proximity 10:26 < Eronarn> let them go onto land like in dwarf fortress 10:26 < Jevouse> mudkipz 10:27 < Jevouse> but never resubmerging ever 10:27 < Jevouse> that is a bit strange 10:27 < mikee_> remove water/lava completely and make them into land fish if needed 10:28 < Jevouse> where's the land octopi 10:28 < Jevouse> octopode monsters! 10:28 <+elliptic> currently randart fixed level books try to have 5 + level/3 spells in them 10:28 <+elliptic> this seems bad to me; I think it should be a decreasing function of level 10:28 < Jevouse> decreasing function? 10:29 <+elliptic> (or rather, non-increasing) 10:29 < Jevouse> just...5 spells, fat? 10:29 < Jevouse> flat? 10:29 <+elliptic> no 10:29 <+elliptic> the point is that I want it to be only one spell for L9 10:32 <+elliptic> though I guess there aren't that many low-level spells either 10:39 <+|amethyst> okay, so I haven't gone yet... what about L8? 10:39 <+|amethyst> going to make it L8+L9? 10:39 <+|amethyst> or add an existing L8 spell to a non-hard book? 10:41 < Jevouse> 1 L8 and L9 spell per randart fixed level spellbooks? 10:41 <+|amethyst> there are no suitable L8 spells now 10:42 < Eronarn> Jevouse: 10:42 < Eronarn> @??octopode 10:42 < Gretell> octopode (x) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 26-57 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 15, 10 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(8), drown | XP: 226. 10:42 < Jevouse> yeah, vanilla octopodes only 10:44 < Eronarn> they don't have real stats yet anyhow 10:44 <+|amethyst> btw, if there are any mac folks around: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5149 10:44 < Eronarn> probably they should get +1 AC, and attacks more like kenku monster 10:44 < Eronarn> @??kenku 10:44 < Gretell> unknown monster: "kenku" 10:44 < Eronarn> @??tengu 10:44 < Gretell> tengu (H) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-38 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10, 5, 5 | Flags: fly | Res: magic(20) | XP: 130. 10:44 < Eronarn> 10 (wield), 5 (beak), (constrict) 10:45 < Jevouse> octopodes don't have to wield anything 10:45 < Jevouse> and where's the tentacles 10:45 <+|amethyst> not sure if something's wrong with proffle's environment or what, but he can build trunk but not 0.9 (none of the system headers are found). Perhaps an SDK version problem? 10:46 <+|amethyst> anyway, I'm out for real now 10:46 < Eronarn> Jevouse: thatj ust means they can use that attack to wield stuff 10:46 < Eronarn> not that they have to 10:46 < Jevouse> yeah, so, (tentacles) is needed too 10:46 < Eronarn> they shouldn't get beak+tentacles+constrict that's too much 10:46 <+elliptic> |amethyst: if you haven't actually left yet, what I'm doing is making it only drop to a lower level if it can find 0 spells 10:46 < Eronarn> it can be made coinflip beak/tentacles or something 10:47 < Jevouse> well 10:47 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:47 < Jevouse> only if its in water 10:47 < Eronarn> monster aux attacks hit every round 10:47 < Eronarn> unlike player ones 10:47 < Jevouse> iirc octopodes require 4 tentacles to walk 10:47 < Jevouse> and then each tentacle is like 1/2 an arm 10:47 < Jevouse> so you end up with the equivalent of (wield) with a land octopode 10:47 < Jevouse> in the water they have extra limbs to use 10:48 < Jevouse> so that can be their little flavour feature 10:48 < Jevouse> take out beak for tentacles in water i guess 10:48 < Jevouse> it shouldn't be trying to peck you in the water, lol 10:49 < Eronarn> octos really shouldn't be getting 'peck' messages anyways 10:49 < Jevouse> @?? merfolk 10:49 < Gretell> merfolk (m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 9 | Health: 24-48 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 18 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(36), drown | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 188. 10:49 < Eronarn> they use their beak to bite 10:49 < Eronarn> if anything beak should really be removed, as they could only feasibly use it to attack while constricting 10:50 < Jevouse> so 10 (wield), 5 (tentacles) (10 in water)? 10:50 < Jevouse> oh and constrict 10:51 < Eronarn> i don't feel that they need a boost while in water 10:51 < Jevouse> why not? 10:51 < Jevouse> octopodes are rather more suited to water 10:51 < Eronarn> that's a common misconception 10:52 < Jevouse> rather more suited to FIGHT in water 10:52 < Jevouse> i mena 10:52 < Jevouse> i mean 10:52 < Eronarn> http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/ 10:52 < Jevouse> it can use all eight tentacles 10:52 < Eronarn> they're excellent ambush predators, above or below the waves 10:52 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L2 MuSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster crimson imp failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 10:53 < Jevouse> yeah 10:53 < Jevouse> but we're not assuming it sits in a tree and drops down on you on land 10:53 < Jevouse> rather, the description specifically says that they use 4 tentacles to walk on land 10:54 < Eronarn> they need limbs to swim, too 10:54 < Jevouse> yes 10:54 < Jevouse> swim to you and then use all 8 to crush you 10:55 < Jevouse> instead of needing 4 to keep its balance 10:55 < Eronarn> oh, they can keep their balance with no tentacles 10:55 < Eronarn> they're basically sphere-shaped 10:55 < Eronarn> they just can't *move* without at least 4 tentacles helping 10:55 < Eronarn> so they walk to you needing 4, but then if they start constricting (and don't move away), they can use all 8 to constrict 10:55 < Jevouse> but that means they give up the ability to swing whatever weapon 10:55 < Jevouse> they're using 10:56 < Eronarn> sure, constriciton code isn't finished yet 10:56 < Eronarn> right now it doesn't take into account wielding weapons afaik 10:56 < Jevouse> hrm, i guess 10:56 < Eronarn> an octo with no weapons/shield should be better at constricting, naturally 10:56 < Jevouse> yeah 10:56 <+elliptic> eronarn: constriction isn't supposed to depend on weapon use vs unarmed 10:56 < Jevouse> elliptic: that only makes sense for nagas 10:57 < Eronarn> elliptic: i don't think it should generally, but octo arms and legs are the same thing 10:57 < Eronarn> it makes sense for them 10:57 <+elliptic> eronarn: not really... you are using that arm for UC or you are using it to hold a weapon 10:57 <+elliptic> either way, you aren't constricting with it 10:58 < Jevouse> eh 10:58 < Eronarn> elliptic: yeah, it's been discussed that we probably won't get a consistent system unless we track # of tentacles used 10:58 < Eronarn> kilo pointed out octos can constrict 8 things while also attacking,c urrently 10:58 <+elliptic> eronarn: I think the vague consensus reached from that conversation was that we shouldn't track # of tentacles used 10:59 < Jevouse> constrict 8 things with basically half strength arms? 10:59 < Jevouse> o.O 10:59 <+elliptic> and just pick some number, like 3, and say that this is how many things an octo can constrict 10:59 < Jevouse> how many things can nagas constrict? 10:59 <+elliptic> regardless of shield use etc 10:59 <+elliptic> 1 10:59 < Jevouse> i'd go with 2 for octopodes 11:00 < Eronarn> well, let's look at this from a gameplay perspective 11:00 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3024-ga8f5869 (32) 11:00 < Eronarn> are octos currently getting any boost to constriction checks? 11:01 < Eronarn> or is their only bonus the # of constrictees 11:01 <+elliptic> I think the only bonus is the # of constrictees, but I'm not positive 11:01 <+elliptic> aside from that they are worse than nagas at constricting because they are smaller 11:01 <+elliptic> or something like that 11:03 < Jevouse> well, four tentacles as compared to a large slinky snake 11:03 < Eronarn> elliptic: yeah, i figured... maybe give octos an effective size bonus or something 11:04 < Eronarn> they're 'medium', but they're VERY large creatures, because of their shape 11:04 <+elliptic> eronarn: yeah 11:04 < Eronarn> (round, so space filling) 11:04 < Jevouse> yeah, but if they're using only 4 tentacles to constrict 11:04 < Jevouse> instead of their full strength 11:05 < Jevouse> and it gets worse if they constrict more , no? 11:05 < Eronarn> Jevouse: octos are like 300 lbs, fyi 11:05 < Jevouse> weight doesn't mean strength 11:05 < Eronarn> the reason they don't have great strength is that they have a given amount of strength divided over eight limbs 11:05 < Jevouse> exactly 11:05 < Eronarn> and generally can't use them all at the same time 11:05 < Jevouse> right 11:05 < Eronarn> constriction is an exception 11:06 < Jevouse> so if elliptic says they use only half their limbs to constrict 11:06 <+elliptic> I didn't say any such thing 11:06 < Jevouse> they're only using half their strength 11:06 < Eronarn> one option to deal with the question of UC octopodes is to change the attack text if they're constricting 11:06 < Jevouse> well you said they do it regardless of shield/weapon etc. 11:06 < Eronarn> like, make unarmed tentacle attacks be squeezes instead of slaps 11:07 < Jevouse> so if they are using shield/weapon they aren't using those tentacles for constriction 11:07 < Eronarn> actually, what about 11:07 < Eronarn> "You are able to perform more powerful unarmed attacks while you are constricting." 11:07 < Eronarn> and have that be where they do squeezes and bites 11:07 < Eronarn> remove the beak aux entirely 11:08 <+elliptic> eronarn: currently octopodes actually get a "squeeze" aux in addition to constriction 11:08 < Eronarn> elliptic: right, yeah 11:08 < Eronarn> i added that as something that should be removed when constriction is added 11:08 < Eronarn> (it was originally a slap, not a squeeze, though) 11:08 < Jevouse> heh, a slap 11:09 <+elliptic> eronarn: yeah... I would go remove it except that it is currently being used by beastly appendage 11:09 < Jevouse> hrmmm 11:09 <+elliptic> and I don't want to try to sort that out right now 11:09 < Jevouse> beastly appendage allows you to constrict dudes! 11:09 < Jevouse> :D 11:09 < Eronarn> what about for octos: normal unarmed damage, remove the special offhand punch code, remove the beak, remove the squeeze aux, constriction of up to 4 things regardless of item use, replace punches (offhand or otherwise) by squeezes/bites while constricting 11:09 <+elliptic> no, it doesn't 11:10 < Jevouse> if it gives you tentacles! 11:10 < Jevouse> to be consistent! 11:10 < Eronarn> we can just think of something new for beastly pretty quick 11:10 < Jevouse> a weaker constrict 11:10 <+elliptic> yes, beastly should just not give tentacles 11:11 <+elliptic> since it is true that people will expect them to give constriction, but there is no way that is happening 11:11 < HangedMan> third hand-slot mutation 11:11 < Jevouse> why 11:11 < Eronarn> elliptic: did you hear my idea for splitting tentacles into three muts? 11:11 < Jevouse> balance breaking? 11:11 <+elliptic> eronarn: yeah, I forget the details, but that's a possible solution too 11:11 <+elliptic> and only tentacles 3 gives constriction 11:11 <+elliptic> ? 11:12 < Jevouse> ja 11:12 < Eronarn> arm tentacles (block gloves, reaching), leg tentacles (block boots, constriction), back/spine tentacles (block cloak, provides damaging aux) 11:12 <+elliptic> Jevouse: no, because people would scum beastly appendage for tentacles 11:12 < Eronarn> have beastly give back tentacles that batter opponents 11:12 <+elliptic> it needs to give equivalent mutations, not one that allows constriction and two that don't 11:12 < Jevouse> well, you could make the resulting constriction very weak 11:12 < Eronarn> elliptic: arm/leg would be randoms / for DS, not for beastly 11:12 < Jevouse> from beastly 11:13 < Eronarn> (beastly only lets you grow new stuff) 11:13 < Jevouse> like the current throwing net code? 11:13 <+elliptic> jevouse: doesn't matter, constriction is completely different from the other auxes 11:13 <+elliptic> so not happening 11:13 < Jevouse> i see 11:14 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14 < Eronarn> do people think octos would be too weak if they had no auxes? 11:14 < Eronarn> constriction seems like it will be powerful enough to make that not an issue 11:14 < Jevouse> meh, just let octos suck a little 11:15 < Jevouse> its already highly luck based on rings 11:15 < Eronarn> it is okay if they are weaker, but people were having trouble starting them at all 11:15 < Eronarn> that's why they got +1 AC 11:15 < Jevouse> raise AC 11:16 < Jevouse> or just split tentacles into levels like the other mutations and give octopodes tent 3, like you said 11:16 < Eronarn> Jevouse: i wasn't talking about splitting it into levels 11:16 < Eronarn> it already is, and they already do 11:16 < Eronarn> i was talking about splitting it into three separate three-level mutations 11:16 < Jevouse> mmm 11:16 < Jevouse> ah 11:16 < Jevouse> ok 11:16 < Jevouse> how about giving them stinger 1 11:16 <+elliptic> eronarn: I think they were fine before constriction, and constriction is better than the aux, so yes 11:17 < Eronarn> elliptic: well, the constriction formulas should really be heavily modified :P 11:17 < Eronarn> hard to talk about balance until then 11:17 <+elliptic> yeah, but it still should be better than a boring aux IMO 11:17 < Eronarn> yes 11:18 < Jevouse> octopi have poisonous suckers in their tentacles, right? 11:18 < Eronarn> some do (or maybe it's glands near their mouth, i forget) 11:19 < Jevouse> yeah, stinger 1 11:19 <+elliptic> eronarn: your tentacle suggestion sounds too complicated to make it into 0.10, but could be interesting for 0.11 11:20 < Eronarn> oh that reminds me 11:20 < Eronarn> do we want to give octos permareaching at all? because people liked the idea, but i wasn't sold on it, but now it's in for spears anyways 11:20 < Eronarn> and doesn't seem to be causing too many problems 11:20 < Jevouse> eronarn 11:20 <+elliptic> I don't think it is necessary 11:20 < Jevouse> permareaching octopodes 11:20 < Jevouse> with spears? 11:20 < Jevouse> lol 11:21 < Jevouse> does that mean i can use spears from 3 squares away? 11:21 <+elliptic> constriction is enough specialness 11:22 < Eronarn> for .10 then i'd suggest: remove auxes, remove special UC code, fix constriction formula, limit to 4 constricted things at once (still enough to constrict all hells or all pans) 11:22 <+elliptic> special UC code? 11:22 < Eronarn> elliptic: they have some stuff like being more likely to get an offhand punch 11:22 < Jevouse> the slaps 11:22 < Eronarn> not sure it's needed 11:22 < Eronarn> it's not mentioned anywhere 11:23 <+elliptic> eronarn: the only bonus of that sort that octopodes get is that they can have offhand punch even if using a two-handed weapon or a shield 11:23 <+elliptic> it isn't really "more likely" so much as "it isn't disabled" 11:24 < Jevouse> ooh spiffy 11:24 < Eronarn> elliptic: if they are losing the other auxes, they will still have kicks and headbutts, so just replace both with punches and remove that? 11:24 <+elliptic> kicks are already replaced by punches 11:25 <+elliptic> they get headbutts though 11:25 < Eronarn> the headbutts get replaced by beak attacks later in the code iirc 11:26 <+elliptic> oh, right, beak uses UNAT_HEADBUTT 11:27 <+elliptic> for some reason I was expecting UNAT_PECK :P 11:27 < Jevouse> so headbutts turn into pecks? how long is this beak?? 11:27 < mikee_> could this beak be made into a bonus for stabbing =P 11:28 < Eronarn> Jevouse: that's just it, the beak mut is for a raven-like one 11:28 < Eronarn> rather than one designed for biting into crabs 11:28 < Jevouse> yeah, short but strong? 11:28 < Jevouse> so if anything its bite 11:28 < Jevouse> but for distance its headbutt 11:28 < Eronarn> they can't really do a headbutt 11:29 < Eronarn> they're too squishy and big 11:29 < Jevouse> well 11:29 < Jevouse> do a bite while constricting 11:29 < Jevouse> else how? 11:29 < Eronarn> yes, what i suggested is that while constricting, if they do UC attacks against a constrictee, they get replaced by more damaging bites/squeezes 11:29 < Eronarn> as a minor perk 11:29 < Jevouse> yeah, sounds nice 11:29 <+elliptic> eronarn: I think maybe removing beak and turning headbutts into punches is enough for now, and leave the squeeze aux in for now 11:30 <+elliptic> it can be removed later (or made to only work while constricting) after constriction balance is a bit better 11:30 < Eronarn> sure 11:30 < Jevouse> can monsters escape constriction ? 11:30 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31 < Jevouse> mmm yeah ok 11:32 < Jevouse> oh lol 11:32 < Jevouse> who wrote that burning love for jellies 11:36 < Jevouse> so uh...hrm 11:36 < Jevouse> what exactly does the Orb of Zot do? 11:37 < Jevouse> or is it just a hostile macguffin 11:38 <+MarvinPA_> it's the ultimate paperweight to end all paperweights 11:39 <+MarvinPA_> such terrible power has to be kept safe 11:39 < Jevouse> hehe 11:39 < Jevouse> well, is it too much to wonder why you can't tap its power when you get it 11:40 < HangedMan> it's hostile and powerful to prevent so as long as it's inside the place that is meant to contain it 11:40 < Jevouse> so it actually wants to stay in its containment?? 11:41 < Jevouse> i'd have thought it wants to leave 11:43 < Jevouse> or you're saying that the containment power is actually drawn from itself! 11:50 < CIA-112> elliptic * rf2220e5e989c /crawl-ref/source/ (acquire.cc artefact.cc items.cc makeitem.cc spl-book.cc): Fix errors when trying to generate a randart level 8 book (Mantis 5144). 11:52 ۰۰-- dtsund [~detasund@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52 < Jevouse> elliptic: is teh c-blink onto mimic bug still there?? 11:53 <+elliptic> yes 11:53 <+elliptic> I've been hoping someone who knows the mimic code will fix it :P 11:53 < Jevouse> well it has to do with location i guess 11:54 < Jevouse> wait uh 11:54 < Jevouse> if you r-blink on to it, it'll still be the item? 11:56 < Jevouse> so its blink in general and not just c-blink? 11:56 < Jevouse> maybe blink is not initializing the mimic morph 11:57 < Jevouse> anyone looked at the blink code? 12:06 <+MarvinPA_> it's not blink in general, cblink or swap card or whatever else will also do it 12:06 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 12:09 < st_> I had the potential for two silver runes last game, I forgot about the bug until right after I attacked the mimic though 12:12 < Jevouse> euhhhh 12:12 < Jevouse> git pull doesn't work 12:12 < Jevouse> asks me to specify branch in config file 12:12 < Jevouse> bleh 12:15 < Jevouse> what's the config i should do? 12:18 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet] 12:20 ۰۰-- capablanca [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21 ۰۰-- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 12:21 < Jevouse> elliptic, do you know 12:26 ۰۰-- ixtli [~textual@ool-4357c7fc.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:27 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ [~MarvinPA@85.211.113.203] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v MarvinPA_] by ChanServ 12:30 ۰۰-- MarvinPA [~MarvinPA@85.210.102.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:32 < CIA-112> elliptic * r3bfc4a687e31 /crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc ng-setup.cc): Remove beak from octopodes. 12:33 ۰۰-- MarvinPA [~MarvinPA@thecampbells.demon.co.uk] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v MarvinPA] by ChanServ 12:34 ۰۰-- alefury [~galefury@B4115.karlshof.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ [~MarvinPA@85.211.113.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:36 < st_> hm so it's not possible to use MONS: place:D:2 in sprint? 12:36 < st_> the game freaks out when I try 12:37 < st_> doing place:lair works though... 12:38 < Jevouse> st_ 12:38 < Jevouse> do you use git 12:39 < st_> no 12:39 < Jevouse> mrh 12:45 ۰۰-- Wensley [~chatzilla@dynamic-acs-72-23-89-126.zoominternet.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48 < Jevouse> ?? version 12:48 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled version in my learndb. 12:48 < Jevouse> ! version 13:08 < Henzell> minmay the Hellbinder (L27 DESu) ERROR in 'mon-place.cc' at line 1354: invalid monster to place: Ignacio (499) (D:1) 13:10 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L6 MuSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster crimson imp failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 13:11 < Henzell> minmay the Hellbinder (L27 DESu) ERROR in 'mon-place.cc' at line 1354: invalid monster to place: Ignacio (499) (D:1) 13:15 ۰۰-- Jevouse [~guan.shou@bb220-255-80-21.singnet.com.sg] has quit [] 13:15 <+MarvinPA> hm, apparently bend space still works while constricted 13:17 <+MarvinPA> but does bring the constrictor with you, probably it should either be the same as blink or let you break out completely? 13:19 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30 < Wensley> does bend space work the same as dispersal? 13:31 < Eronarn> no 13:43 ۰۰-- Sequell [~Sequell@churnbox.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43 ۰۰-- Sequell [~Sequell@churnbox.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44 ۰۰-- ghallberg [~gustaf@h206n2-g-kt-d1.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44 ۰۰-- ghallberg [~gustaf@h206n2-g-kt-d1.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44 ۰۰-- lorimer [~granny@adsl-72-145-254-130.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44 ۰۰-- lorimer [~granny@adsl-72-145-254-130.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46 ۰۰-- syllogism- [syllogism@89-166-16-68.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47 ۰۰-- syllogism [syllogism@89-166-16-68.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 14:20 ۰۰-- ixtli [~textual@ool-4357c7fc.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24 ۰۰-- blabber [~tobi@p3EE3A992.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:40 ۰۰-- dtsund [~detasund@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41 ۰۰-- dtsund_ [~detasund@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41 ۰۰-- dtsund_ is now known as dtsund 14:50 ۰۰-- ixtli [~textual@ool-4357c7fc.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:52 ۰۰-- ixtli [~textual@ool-4357c7fc.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42 ۰۰-- Zaba [~zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43 ۰۰-- monqy [~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56 ۰۰-- Zaba [~zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ 16:04 ۰۰-- mikee_ [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 16:22 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L16 MuSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 16:36 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L16 MuSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster bat failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 16:55 <+|amethyst> MarvinPA: probably Bend Space should let you break out completely 16:55 <+MarvinPA> yeah, certainly seems reasonable for it to do that in terms of theme 16:55 <+|amethyst> MarvinPA: or maybe put one square between you 16:56 <+|amethyst> rather than just ignoring it 16:56 <+MarvinPA> i suppose sometimes bend space can blink monsters that are adjacent to you, not sure what happens if it does that to a constrictor 16:56 <+|amethyst> you each come along for the ride 16:56 <+|amethyst> so two blinks 16:56 <+MarvinPA> ah 16:56 <+MarvinPA> yeah, that's weird 16:57 <+|amethyst> bend space works in abyss, right? 16:57 <+MarvinPA> yup 16:57 <+|amethyst> it would make sense for lucy to help you get away from her monstrosities :) 16:58 <+|amethyst> if you're slow, they may be one of the more dangerous things in abyss now 16:58 <+|amethyst> if they weren't already 16:58 <+|amethyst> (then again, no ranged) 16:59 <+|amethyst> hm... I guess I should send c-r-d a mail about my abyss changes branch 16:59 <+MarvinPA> if you're slow, pretty much everything in the abyss is dangerous :P 16:59 <+MarvinPA> oh yeah, i'll have a look at that locally 16:59 <+MarvinPA> i like the sounds of it 17:07 * due waves 17:07 <@due> oh god i need a life 17:08 < HangedMan> do your abyssal monsters exist yet? 17:09 <@due> mine? 17:09 <@due> only in my head :( 17:14 < HangedMan> if I remember correctly a while ago you said that when the holy monsters were finished you'd work on them over the holidays 17:16 <@due> well, yes 17:16 < Eronarn> remote: Counting objects: 19490, done. 17:17 < Eronarn> that's how out of date my crawl was 17:18 <@due> mine is the saaame 17:19 < HangedMan> all of these newfangled things fixed up by silly whippersnappers 17:19 <@due> i know! it's disgusting 17:22 < Eronarn> hahah oh god 17:22 < Eronarn> automerge is VERY CONFUSED by fight.cc 17:23 < HangedMan> oh my god 17:23 < HangedMan> whoops 17:26 < Eronarn> okay, new years resolution: have lava orc patch submitted before next year 17:27 < Eronarn> oh jeez i think my code might be conflicting with ignite blood mut 17:34 < Eronarn> why do vamp/dg even get a +1 starting MP 17:34 < Eronarn> that's so weird 17:41 <+|amethyst> okay, email sent 17:42 < Eronarn> what's skill(SK_EARTH_MAGIC, 20); do 17:44 <+|amethyst> Eronarn: earth skill * 20 17:44 < Eronarn> okay, thought so 17:44 <+|amethyst> it's not * because of the non-integer part 17:46 < jeanjacques> bear berserk seems slightly broken 17:50 < jeanjacques> they only berserk when they are completly blocked and fleeing otherwise they just have a regular flee pattern 17:54 ۰۰-- ixtli [~textual@ool-4357c7fc.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:03 < Eronarn> what'd DESC_CAP_THE get replaced by? 18:03 ۰۰-- dtsund [~detasund@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:13 < Eronarn> ickk, need to redo a lot of the mutation.cc stuff 18:15 ۰۰-- alefury [~galefury@B4115.karlshof.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18 ۰۰-- MakMorn [~daniel@c-68-50-137-3.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21 ۰۰-- MakMorn [~daniel@c-68-50-137-3.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:25 < Eronarn> ASSERT(sqlite3_threadsafe()) in 'database.cc' at line 271 failed 18:25 < Eronarn> :( 18:26 ۰۰-- st_ [~s@cpc10-stre5-2-0-cust69.1-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:26 < Eronarn> anyone have any thought on how to fix that? 18:30 ۰۰-- HangedMan [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:32 ۰۰-- blueDave [47e49759@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.228.151.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:32 ۰۰-- Jordan7hm [63f5f253@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.245.242.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:12 ۰۰-- dtsund [~detasund@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: best solution: install system headers for sqlite. A worse solution: update the submodule (as suggested in a comment next to the assertion). 19:16 ۰۰-- evilmike [~evilmike@207.6.121.180] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:16 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+v evilmike] by ChanServ 19:18 <+Napkin> Happy new year, guys! 19:19 < phyphor> Happy New Year! 19:20 < Eronarn> kilobyte: i tried running the submodule update command again; do i need to run something to get it to uninstall an old version first? 19:20 < Eronarn> oh, i see, read the comment 19:20 < Eronarn> (i hadn't looked at it because i figured there was nothing i'd want to touch in database.cc anyways) 19:21 <+kilobyte> sync shouldn't be needed unless you still have it pointing to SF (surprisingly possible for old checkouts) 19:22 <+kilobyte> "make clean-contrib" shouldn't be needed but I'm only 99.9% sure here 19:26 < Eronarn> kilobyte: hmm, neither worked :( still getting crashes 19:27 <+kilobyte> on this assertion? 19:27 < Eronarn> yeah, same one 19:28 < Eronarn> i have ubuntu's libsqlite3-0 and sqlite3 installed, if it matters 19:28 <+kilobyte> could you check contrib/sqlite/Makefile? It should contain no OMITs for threading. 19:29 <+kilobyte> oh, so there's no point in contribs -- please grab libsqlite3-dev 19:30 <+kilobyte> (and "make clean-contrib" afterwards -- moving from contrib to no-contrib is one case it is needed) 19:31 ۰۰-- HangedMan [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38 < Eronarn> hooray, compiled 19:39 < Eronarn> now just need to fix stuff that crashes on chargen :) 19:46 ۰۰-- syllogism- [syllogism@89-166-16-68.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 19:50 * SamB almost wonders why the curses standard hasn't been replaced with the directive "use ncurses, dumbass" 19:51 <+kilobyte> both curses and ncurses have an API so bizarre so I'd start with salting the earth instead 19:52 ۰۰-- Ragdoll [~Ragdoll@53518A17.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Up, up and away!] 19:52 <+SamB> kilobyte: I ask this on seeing this in section 1.1.2: 19:53 <+SamB> • The following new utilities are added in Chapter 6: 19:53 <+SamB> infocmp 19:53 <+SamB> tic 19:53 <+SamB> tput 19:53 <+SamB> untic 19:54 <+kilobyte> does this version come from the PDP-1 user manual? 19:54 < ghallberg> Happy new year and stuff. 19:55 <+SamB> kilobyte: what? no, this is X/Open Curses, Issue 7 19:55 <+SamB> ghallberg: not yet it isn't! 19:55 < ghallberg> 2 hours ago or so! 19:55 < ghallberg> slowpokes 19:55 <+kilobyte> SamB: you're living in the past 19:56 <+SamB> kilobyte: copyrighted in 2009 19:56 < ghallberg> 2011 is so last year you know. 19:56 <+kilobyte> SamB: ... 19:56 <+SamB> oh, I thought you were talking about the standard I'm looking at 19:57 <+SamB> anyway, PDP-1's don't even use 8-bit bytes, iirc, so -- no. It's not from a PDP-1 manual! 19:58 <+kilobyte> yeah, I'm obviously joking, but this standard feels like that estimation isn't off by much :p 19:58 <+SamB> kilobyte: but you can see why the above-pasted portion prompted my question, no? 20:00 ۰۰-- HangedMan [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:03 <+evilmike> !tell |amethyst I tried your abyss changes a bit. Pretty cool, seems like a big improvement to me 20:03 < Henzell> I don't grok. Syntax is !tell PERSON MESSAGE. 20:04 <+evilmike> oh well he's in the channel 20:04 <+SamB> Henzell: idiot 20:04 <+kilobyte> SamB: obviously yeah, that's what I refer to. 20:04 <+evilmike> I think it might work if I omit the |, not sure though 20:05 <+SamB> kilobyte: well, short of doing what I said, you can't exactly expect the standard to have all of ncurses' features ... 20:06 <+kilobyte> tic may be argued to be an implementation detail 20:09 ۰۰-- ixtli [~textual@cpe-74-68-129-70.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:09 <+SamB> (also, it seems that the standard only specifies a small subset of ncurses' flags) 20:21 <+SamB> kilobyte: presumably the standard does not require that the library be capable of compiling terminfo entries on the fly? 20:22 <+kilobyte> isn't terminfo a ncurses-ism? 20:23 <+kilobyte> (no real idea though, it was ages since I last dealt with termcap/terminfo) 20:32 <+SamB> seems not 20:33 < Eronarn> i wonder what i messed up that it's crashing on get_exp_progress 20:33 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: looks like the aptitudes are not set correctly 20:36 < Eronarn> kilobyte: hm? 20:38 < Eronarn> Program received signal SIGFPE, Arithmetic exception. 20:38 < Eronarn> 0x000000000086512e in get_exp_progress() () 20:38 < Eronarn> (gdb) 20:38 <+kilobyte> I've seen such crashes several times whenever race was badly set (yaks, MDs), or aptitudes were missing (nomes) 20:39 <+kilobyte> without even reading the code in question, I bet the exp modifier is 0 20:39 < Eronarn> oh right 20:39 < Eronarn> that got moved or something, i forgot to add it back in[A[A[A[A[A[A 20:39 < Eronarn> good catch 20:41 < Eronarn> yay, temp gauge and stuff all works :) 20:42 < Eronarn> unfortunately i think i am too tired to actually submit a patch tonight... still a bunch of stuff to be done 20:47 <+SamB> kilobyte: actually, terminfo originated in System III, according to http://invisible-island.net/ncurses/ncurses-intro.html#history 20:48 <+SamB> and it seems that we can blame rogue for the existance of curses, too! 20:49 <+kilobyte> when moving a project away from ncurses in ~1998 or so, I vaguely recall the docs speaking loads about termcap, mentioning that on Linux ncurses use terminfo rather than "standard" termcap 20:49 <+kilobyte> that's quite fuzzy memory, though 20:50 <+SamB> as I understand it, termcap is "traditional" rather than standard 20:50 <+kilobyte> (and my reason for moving away from ncurses was that is was fragile beyond words on IRIX and SunOS, working reasonably only on Linux) 20:50 <+SamB> what did you move to? 20:51 <+kilobyte> \e[31;1m 20:51 <+SamB> ouch 20:51 <+kilobyte> curses meant no working colours, breakage for non-7 bit characters, and when sshing to a different system, no _spaces_ 20:52 <+kilobyte> andI'mnotfuckingjokinghere 20:52 <+SamB> OUCH 20:54 <+kilobyte> I guess if I knew more about termcap/terminfo details, it might have been possible to debug what was wrong, but since other curses-using programs exhibited the same results, I assumed the library is broken beyond repair 20:54 <+SamB> yeah 20:55 <+kilobyte> and literally every terminal in existence at that point was compatible with vt100 basics (and still is) so using literal codes worked for me 20:55 <+SamB> basics, sure 20:56 <+kilobyte> anything with 1.5 exceptions supported colours, too 20:56 <+SamB> yeah 20:57 <+kilobyte> one was Windows 3.1 telnet.exe, the half were systems using Hercules graphics cards (working brightness, reverse, blue bit doing underlining instead, green and red ignored) 20:58 <+SamB> that's kind of funny ;-) 20:58 * SamB has heard of underlining -> blue before 21:10 <+SamB> I wonder what the point of u0-u9 was supposed to be... 21:12 < Eronarn> https://github.com/Eronarn/Crawling-Chaos/tree/lava_orc 21:12 < Eronarn> if anyone's interested :) 21:13 < Eronarn> they should be much less broken now, they only get 1 radius heat aura and only at max temperature 21:13 < Eronarn> still need to change the temperature code though 21:21 * SamB wonders whether appendix A was mostly copeid from ncurses' terminfo(5), or the other way 'round 21:24 ۰۰-- ais523 [~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29 ۰۰-- alefury [~galefury@B4115.karlshof.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]] 22:02 ۰۰-- jeanjacques [~jejacques@port-92-200-28-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:14 < Eronarn> mmm, think i might have fixed lorc heat stuff :D 22:47 < Eronarn> i like how half the bugs i've fixed in the past hour are ones in introduced in the past hour 22:49 < dtsund> As long as you've fixed at least half the bugs introduced in the past hour, you're making progress! 22:53 < Eronarn> passive freeze really should be nerfed, it's so strong :| 23:03 <+MarvinPA> it's a tier 3 ds mut 23:03 <+MarvinPA> they're meant to be strong! 23:08 < Eronarn> is lava sea used anywhere right now? 23:08 < Eronarn> it probably breaks lorcs but i don't know if i can test it 23:10 < Eronarn> oh, nevermind, it's fine 23:10 < Eronarn> _The endless sea of lava is not a nice place. [citation needed] 23:11 < Eronarn> ...hmm, i think i might've fixed all the outstanding lorc bugs! 23:15 ۰۰-- Pacra [~Pacra@c-68-44-35-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17 ۰۰-- Jevouse [~guan.shou@bb220-255-80-21.singnet.com.sg] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:18 ۰۰-- Pacra [~Pacra@c-68-44-35-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27 ۰۰-- valrus_ [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:43 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r780e22fe3a7a /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Take away the beak from monster octopodes. 23:54 ۰۰-- valrus_ [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55 ۰۰-- valrus [~valrus@c-76-104-241-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Sun Jan 01 00:00:27 2012