--- Log opened Fri Dec 30 00:00:24 2011
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00:35 < Eronarn> |amethyst: i say no for now, let's see how many deaths it actually causes
01:03 < Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3012-gca80085 (32)
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01:20 < Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3012-gca80085
01:43 <+|amethyst> hm, it appears to be possible to scum draconians somewhat (#5143).  If you want to play a DrFE, just make sure your fire skill is at or just over an integer value when you reach XL 7.  If you become a white draconian, the game will crash
01:43 <+|amethyst> I wonder how long this bug has been around
01:45 < Zannick> is what color you are determined at xl 7?
01:45 <+|amethyst> yes
01:45 < Zannick> okay, then yeah that sounds scummable
01:46 <+|amethyst> I guess something's calling get_skill_progress before the levels get adjusted
01:46 <+|amethyst> my crash dump isn't being very helpful though
01:46 <+|amethyst> ./crawl(_Z18get_skill_progress10skill_typei+0x51) [0x856f0c9]: get_skill_progress(skill_type, int)
01:46 <+|amethyst> ./crawl(_ZNK6player5skillE10skill_typeib+0x51) [0x852b1d1]: player::skill(skill_type, int, bool) const
01:46 <+|amethyst> that's where it stops... no clue who's calling player::skill
01:47 < Zannick> do you have a save?
01:47 <+|amethyst> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5143
01:47 <+|amethyst> jevouse provided one
01:47 <+|amethyst> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=2712&type=bug
01:48 <+|amethyst> I guess I should be building with -O0
01:49  * Zannick building now
01:49 <+|amethyst> it's easy to do in wizmode
01:50 < Zannick> i still have to build regardless :P
01:50 <+|amethyst> &A2  &^L7  -> crash if you got a colour with a negative aptitude
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01:52 < Zannick> man, i forget how big crawl is sometimes. :P
01:57 < Zannick> man, linking is intense
01:58 <+|amethyst> I need a faster computer :)
02:00 < Zannick> argh, sqlite3
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02:02 <+|amethyst> !learn edit excrutiating_wounds[1] s/ench/charms/
02:02 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled excrutiating_wounds[1] in my learndb.
02:03 <+|amethyst> gah, wrong channel and I mispelt it anyway
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02:07 < Zannick> ok, sqlite3 is asserting when i try to start
02:09 <+|amethyst> Zannick:  you built it from contribs?
02:09 <+|amethyst> you need to do git submodule update
02:09 < Zannick> yeah, let me try rebuilding it
02:10 < Zannick> i built then did the update and it didn't auto rebuild
02:10 <+|amethyst> ah, a much better crash dump this time
02:13 < Zannick> nope, there it goes again
02:13  * Zannick grumble
02:14 <+|amethyst> fixed it
02:14 < Zannick> lol i still haven't succeeding in building
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02:21 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r1e8623247bbf /crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Don't crash when draconians gain XL 7 and lose skill levels.
02:23 < Zannick> there, we go
02:23 < Zannick> well, for next time, anyway :P
02:23 <+|amethyst> :)
02:24 < Zannick> i blame the submodule system for that
02:24 <+|amethyst> I don't build contribs, in general
02:24 <+|amethyst> I use my OS's -dev packages :)
02:24 < Zannick> i built, then i realized i needed to update, then i updated, then i built, and it didn't rebuild the contrib
02:25 < Zannick> then i installed sqlite-devel and it still didn't work...then i built sqlite in the contrib dir manually and it didn't work
02:25 < Zannick> then i removed sqlite-devel and rebuilt and it rebuilt sqlite for me and it worked!
02:25 < Zannick> yay linux.
02:25 <+|amethyst> heh
02:26 <+|amethyst> I'm doing a 4x rebuild now, which is quite slow for me
02:26 < Zannick> 4x?
02:26 <+|amethyst> console, tiles, console with FULLDEBUG, and tiles with FULLDEBUG
02:26 < Zannick> oh, that sounds like fun
02:27 <+|amethyst> I haven't upgraded my computer in something like 5 years... and never really noticed any problems until I was rebuilding crawl a dozen times a day
02:28 < Zannick> oh, i'm building crawl on a 5-year old laptop
02:29 < Zannick> it takes 8 minutes for a debug console build :)
02:29 <+|amethyst> I mean, I use ccache, but still I cringe when someone changes a header
02:29  * Zaba built crawl on a 10 years old pIII laptop occasionally
02:29 < Zannick> ccache is nice for this
02:29 <+Napkin> |amethyst: just no time yet
02:29 <+Napkin> moin
02:29 < Zannick> my other machine takes about 30 minutes for a clean build
02:29 <+|amethyst> more like 15-20 for me
02:29 <+|amethyst> Napkin:  ah, no rush
02:30 <+|amethyst> Napkin:  I was just worried I missed another bug
02:30 < Zannick> hm, i did just get a second hard drive on my big fat gaming desktop
02:30 < Zannick> i could install linux on the old one :D
02:31 < Zannick> i wonder how fast it would build crawl; it's only a year old
02:31 <+Zaba> about a minute, I'd expect
02:31 <+|amethyst> I have a solaris machine that I use as a file server and nothing else... it's faster, so I should probably put Linux on that one
02:32 <+|amethyst> but ZFS really likes its RAM
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03:38 < Jevouse> anyone know Msysgit for windows
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04:29 < Jevouse> anyone around
04:29 < Jevouse> elliptic u use windows/
04:29 < Jevouse> ?
04:30 <+elliptic> no, sorry
04:31 < Jevouse> augh
04:31 < Jevouse> familiar with MingW?
04:31 < Jevouse> any idea why make won't work?
04:32 < Jevouse> cloned the repository and updated the submodules 
04:32 < Jevouse> but eh, make just won't work
04:34 <+kilobyte> Zaba: on a N900, in a Debian chroot: a conole -O2 build takes an hour.  Outside, using Nokia-provided tools: almost 5.
04:34 <+kilobyte> s/conole/console/
04:35 < Jevouse> oh
04:35 < Jevouse> nvm
04:35 < Jevouse> i found it
04:35 < Jevouse> lol
04:36 <+kilobyte> Zannick: after installing system sqlite-dev, you need to "make clean-contrib" or the makefile will keep to use contribs
04:37 <+kilobyte> even worse, it will use the stale build since the check whether to build sqlite will say "no", yet contrib/install/ will have the headers installed.
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04:44 < Gretell> arrian (L23 DrTm) ASSERT(booktype >= 0 && booktype <= MAX_FIXED_BOOK) in 'spl-book.cc' at line 444 failed. (Crypt:5)
04:48 <+elliptic> !lm * crash -log
04:48 < Sequell> 2088. arrian, XL23 DrTm, T:127212 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/arrian/crash-arrian-20111230-094437.txt
04:51 <+|amethyst> is there any way to get the save when it hasn't been backed up?
04:52 <+|amethyst> why wouldn't that assert trigger on reading any randart book?
04:54 <+elliptic> |amethyst: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5144
04:54 <+elliptic> I think what happened is that moving dragon form to L7 meant that all 5 remaining L8 spells only appear in hard books
04:55 <+elliptic> and maybe fixed-level randarts don't use such spells for some reason
04:57 <+|amethyst> oh, I was misreading... there are two mark_had_books
04:57 <+elliptic> apparently only sif is allowed to create randarts that contains spells that only exist in hard books
04:58 <+|amethyst> obviously this means we need more L8 spells
04:58 <+|amethyst> or to put some of them in non-hard books
04:58 <+|amethyst> for arrian's crash, somehow the book did not get its SPELL_LIST_KEY
04:59 <+|amethyst> err, spell_list
05:00 <+elliptic> well, that's because make_book_level_randart failed to find any spells to put in the book and returned early
05:00 <+elliptic> (with an error message)
05:00 <+|amethyst> ohh
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05:01 <+|amethyst> I didn't read the bug report correctly
05:01 <+|amethyst> the "No level 8 spells?!?!?!" thing wasn't the crash
05:01 <+|amethyst> hm
05:01 <+elliptic> currently we have 13 L7 spells, 5 L8 spells, 5 L9 spells
05:01 <+elliptic> also 19 L6 spells
05:03 <+elliptic> there aren't any L7 spells that look particularly good to me for moving to L8 though
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05:05 < Gretell> arrian (L23 DrTm) ASSERT(booktype >= 0 && booktype <= MAX_FIXED_BOOK) in 'spl-book.cc' at line 444 failed. (Crypt:5)
05:05 <+|amethyst> what l9 spells aren't in hard books only?  tornado, shatter, summon dragon, ...?
05:06 <+|amethyst> I guess just those three
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05:06 <+elliptic> 15, 21, 18, 23, 17, 19, 13, 5, 5
05:06 <+elliptic> is the full distribution of spells
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05:06 <+elliptic> yeah, those three
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05:07 <+kilobyte> or in other words, 60%
05:08 <+|amethyst> hm
05:08 <+elliptic> just disabling or special-casing the L8 randart books is the simplest solution, I guess
05:09 <+elliptic> previously they always had dragon form and no other spells... an amusing book, but not a big loss
05:09 <+|amethyst> ohhhh
05:09 <+|amethyst> that's why people in ##crawl were talking about a special book that had only dragon form
05:10 <+elliptic> yeah, it was relatively common as such things go
05:11 <+|amethyst> I guess it would be offensive to Vehumet to put LCS or Chain Lightning into another book
05:11 <+|amethyst> what about summon horrible things?  if veh is going to lose his summonings portfolio
05:12 <+|amethyst> still, I guess that would be another one-spell randart, which is kind of silly
05:18 <+|amethyst> there's already code to lower the level if there weren't enough spells and the book has a non-Xom god
05:19 <+|amethyst> I guess the if (god != GOD_NO_GOD && god != GOD_XOM)  could be removed
05:20 <+elliptic> yes, I was just noticing that... it looks like it might have been impossible for non-atheist non-xomites to get a L8 or L9 book
05:20 <+elliptic> which is pretty bad
05:20 <+elliptic> how about we just try lowering the level for any char
05:21 <+|amethyst> I think that would make L9 level books not occur naturally either
05:21 <+elliptic> yes
05:21 <+elliptic> currently they only occur naturally for xomites and atheists though, which is worse
05:22 <+|amethyst> do books lying on the ground have a god?
05:22 <+kilobyte> another option: get L8+L9 together
05:22 <+|amethyst> I thought the god was only set for acquirement
05:22 <+|amethyst> (and gifts)
05:22 <+kilobyte> still a pretty tight pool, though
05:22 <+elliptic> oh, that god isn't the player's god necessarily
05:22 <+elliptic> okay
05:23 <+elliptic> kilobyte: that sounds reasonable to me
05:24 <+|amethyst> and people who already got such a book?
05:24 <+|amethyst> I guess they have a free means of crashing
05:31 <+|amethyst> hm, I should change my parse-spl-data script to produce something other than mediawiki-formatted output
05:33 <+|amethyst> btw, is there a reason you can throw flame at yourself, but not flame tongue?
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06:39 < alefury> |amethyst: you cant lick your own elbow
06:41 < ghallberg> TIL: All attacks are aimed at elbows.
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06:48 <+|amethyst> I guess you're not counting the antecubital fossa as part of the elbow
07:18 <+|amethyst> weird
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07:19 <+|amethyst> why would stair_info on the first set of stairs out of the lair have grid = DNGN_FLOOR rather than DNGN_RETURN_FROM_LAIR ?
07:19 <+|amethyst> the stair_infos for the other two upstairs have the correct grid
07:23 <+|amethyst> something to do with create_placeholder_stair I guess
07:25 <+|amethyst> yes, create_placeholder_stair is being called when I enter lair
07:26 <+|amethyst> because LevelInfo::stairs is empty
07:30 <+|amethyst> hm... but new_level_info.update() was called before new_level_info.update_stairs()
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07:33 <+|amethyst> err, s/stairs/stair/
07:35 <+|amethyst> hm, the call to get_stairs() in that new_level_info.update() is giving an empty list
07:36 <+|amethyst> oh, because none of those are known yet, I guess
07:38 <+|amethyst> so I guess the issue is that the placeholder isn't being corrected to DNGN_blah
07:38 <+|amethyst> and is remaining DNGN_FLOOR
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07:48 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  for some reason the placeholder stair in LevelInfo is never getting its grid set to the correct value (it remains DNGN_FLOOR); this means other branch stairs never get synced with it.  This appears to be the cause of #4084.
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07:49 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  I can fix 4084 by adding to the beginning of LevelInfo::correct_stair_list() a loop like   for (int i = 0; i < stairs.size(); i++) stairs[i].grid = grd(stairs[i].position);   but that seems like a hack.
07:49 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  Do you have a better suggestion?
07:49 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  or is this already fixed in your branch?
07:54 <+kilobyte> no, is not, I can look into it though
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08:09 <+|amethyst> I wonder if this is related to the other LevelInfo issues you mentioned earlier
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08:10 <+|amethyst> (earlier as in two weeks ago, though now that I look again it seems those were more related to TravelCache than LevelInfo)
08:33 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  I pushed my fix into branch "branch-stairs", in case you decide it is in fact the appropriate fix.  I'm out for now; thanks for looking into it.
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08:51 < DrPraetor> Finally, my RFE for being trapped under a pile of corpses has been met!  Albeit not on purpose.
08:51 < Henzell> DrPraetor: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
08:51 < DrPraetor> !messages
08:51 < Henzell> (1/2) Keskitalo said (about 1y 21w 4d 7h 38m 55s ago): Yeah, no BH nerf in 0.7 - I got convinced that Ice Form should be nerfed too ;) To be serious, I (personally) started feeling the existing spells should be looked at together, though the ring thing still feels good to me. Thanks for the discussion there, again!
08:51 < DrPraetor> !messages
08:51 < Henzell> (1/1) minqmay said (2d 15h 56m 58s ago): Found Daapraete's Magic Scroll Boutique.
08:52 < DrPraetor> _The ball python constricts you.
08:52 < DrPraetor>  You barely miss the ball python. You squeeze the ball python.
08:52 < DrPraetor> _You kill the ball python!
08:52 < DrPraetor>  While you don't manage to break free from DEAD MONSTER, you feel that another
08:52 < DrPraetor> _attempt might be more successful.
08:53 < DrPraetor> Anyway, do not change this.  It is not a bug, it is a feature!
08:53 <+kilobyte> well, you need to untangle yourself from the dead snake :p
08:54 <+kilobyte> (although a snake a mere meter long wouldn't be that bad here)
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09:02 < DrPraetor> You need to crawl out from underneath the heap of corpses which is covering you!  Obviously.
10:01 < Henzell> talkingcatjazzcat the Magician (L3 MuWz) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1110 failed on turn 4213. (D:2)
10:11 < Henzell> Poncheis the Thaumaturge (L11 TeVM) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1609 failed on turn 11820. (Lair:3)
10:14 < jeanjacques> constriction damage really needs to be lowered
10:14 < jeanjacques> at least the player constriction damage
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10:39 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-3013-g1e86232 (32)
10:47 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: no conflicts, seems to work... pushed
10:48 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r993baa891cc8 /crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Fix up placeholder stair_info features in LevelInfo::stairs.
10:48 < CIA-112> kilobyte * re8e011c291de /crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc player.cc): Slightly optimize.
10:48 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rf2e7c8c87364 /crawl-ref/source/ (mapdef.h terrain.cc terrain.h transform.cc util/taglet.lua): Whitespace fixes.
10:48 < CIA-112> kilobyte * ra0ee61677927 /crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Make Xom like it when you barely survive being poisoned.
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12:27 < Ragdoll> has sif been banned from the temple?
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13:01 ۰۰-- Zaba [~zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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13:05 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  thanks
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13:27 ۰۰-- capablanca [~test@209-6-146-94.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:28 ۰۰-- capablanca is now known as mikee_
13:34 <+|amethyst> 5150: A bailey that requires levitation to access sometimes does not spawn the potions of levitation required.
13:34 <+|amethyst> it looks like there's around a 1.6% chance that you'll get no levitation item at all in that bailey
13:35 <+elliptic> which bailey?
13:35 <+|amethyst> bailey_axe_4
13:35 <+|amethyst> hm
13:35 <+|amethyst> sorry, miscalculated
13:36 <+|amethyst> 6.5%
13:36 <+|amethyst> it has 6 "e"s, with   SUBST: e : eeef   NSUBST: f = 1:f / *:.    SUBST: e = e..
13:37 <+|amethyst> so if "e" gets picked for the first subst (3/4) and also for all six items in the last SUBST ((2/3)^6), you'll get just floor
13:38 ۰۰-- bmh [48c3999d@fsf/member/bmh] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:38 <+elliptic> |amethyst: bailey_axe_3 also has a chance of being inaccessible
13:38 <+elliptic> I got it in my current game and couldn't get in, in fact
13:39 <+|amethyst> the "s all became deep water?
13:40 <+elliptic> yeah
13:40 <+elliptic> they each have a 40% chance of being deep water, if I am reading it right
13:41 <+elliptic> maybe that isn't independent though? I don't know the syntax
13:41 <+elliptic> (like, what the difference is between : and =)
13:42 <+|amethyst> looks like around 41 percent, yeah
13:42 <+|amethyst>  :  means they all get the same substitution
13:42 <+elliptic> oh, also I'm confused about which of w and W is deep and which is shallow
13:43 <+|amethyst> hm, calculated that wrong
13:43 < bmh> speaking of miscaulation, I'm making a patch to fix the RNG.
13:45 <+|amethyst> more like 46%, it looks like
13:45 <+|amethyst> let me try some science
13:47 <+|amethyst> hm... I must be calculating something wrong
13:48 <+MarvinPA> i think maybe it's intentional that you can't get into them without lev sometimes?
13:48 <+MarvinPA> although it is sort of weird
13:49 <+|amethyst> it seems a lot less than 46%, but on 10 trials I had two cases with bailey_axe_3 inaccessible
13:49 <+elliptic> speaking of weird, I want to remove -cTele from the random assortment of baileys that have it
13:49 <+elliptic> since it really doesn't make any sense at all
13:50 <+elliptic> |amethyst: is it possible that "=" is the one that means they all get the same substitution?
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13:51 <+|amethyst> if so, the docs are wrong
13:51 < mikee_> "You sense a magical power warping space" = must be the doing of that orc knight
13:51 < bmh> elliptic: you don't want people airstriking around the bailey, duh
13:51 <+elliptic> airstriking?
13:51 < bmh> I'm guessing the author was concerned with a spoiled player ninja'ing the loot room
13:51 < HangedMan> isn't it glass
13:51 <+|amethyst> elliptic:  might ask dpeg or zaba about that
13:52 <+elliptic> bmh: but there are tons and tons of portal vaults without -cTele
13:52 < bmh> elliptic: I didn't say it was a good idea. I was just trying to suggest a plausible rationale
13:52 <+elliptic> yeah
13:53 <+elliptic> if nothing else, I think it should be uniform across baileys
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14:08 ۰۰-- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Xiberia, oberstein, Arian-, +SamB_XP_
14:12 ۰۰-- dtsund [~opera@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:12 ۰۰-- Netsplit over, joins: Xiberia, +SamB_XP_, Arian-, oberstein
14:18 ۰۰-- HangedMan_ [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:18 ۰۰-- HangedMan_ [63e6725f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.230.114.95] has quit [Client Quit]
14:18 < bmh> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5151 -- can someone apply this? it's sort of... bad.
14:18 ۰۰-- blueDave [47e49759@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.228.151.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
14:18 ۰۰-- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: lorimer, ghallberg, Sequell
14:19 ۰۰-- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Zannick
14:22 ۰۰-- Netsplit over, joins: Sequell, Zannick, ghallberg, lorimer
14:23 ۰۰-- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: jlewis, Eronarn, bmh, cbus, stabwound, CIA-112, Wensley, the_glow, HangedMan, ussdefiant,  (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
14:24 ۰۰-- Netsplit over, joins: Wensley, ussdefiant, HangedMan, the_glow, stabwound, Vandal, cbus, jarpiain, Chousuke, Eronarn (+4 more)
14:26 <+|amethyst> hmm
14:27 <+|amethyst> bmh:  when was the last time the rng changed?
14:27 < bmh> |amethyst: when I wrote it
14:27 <+|amethyst> bmh:  I worry about the fact that we provide a  -seed <num>  option
14:27 <+|amethyst> which is, I presume, intended to allow games to be reproducible
14:27 < bmh> Then patch it in at the next major version?
14:28 <+|amethyst> hm
14:28 <+|amethyst> actually
14:28 <+|amethyst> I guess games wouldn't be reproducible from one commit to another anyway
14:28 < bmh> I don't think it's actually the case that games are reproducible, even given the same random seed. Unless, perhaps, you entered the exact set of keystrokes.
14:29 <+|amethyst> Yeah, I meant given the same input
14:29 <+|amethyst> but I wasn't thinking about stuff changing
14:29 <+|amethyst> even a minor vault change would completely throw off the future
14:29 < bmh> If we really wanted to do it right, we'd have a separate RNG for pumping out the levels
14:30 <+|amethyst> So I guess there's no reason to hold off for a bump
14:30 <+|amethyst> I'll push it in a sec
14:30 <+|amethyst> I'm not cryptographer, so I trust you know what you're doing :)
14:31 < bmh> I'm a biologist not a cryptographer.
14:31 < bmh> (for small values of biologist)
14:32 <+|amethyst> a biologist who knows PRNGs, which is better than me
14:33 <+|amethyst> what kind of biology, btw?  My day job is bioinformatics
14:33 < bmh> I used to do a lot of simulations.
14:33 < bmh> I used to do bioinformatics. Then I found out that regular old hacking paid better.
14:34 < bmh> |amethyst: your domain was seized by ICE...?
14:34 <+|amethyst> bmh:  no :)
14:34 <+|amethyst> bmh:  fifth word in the title
14:34 <+|amethyst> or scroll down :)
14:34 < bmh> derp.
14:35 <+|amethyst> apparently my wife's employer blocks my domain as a "gambling site"
14:35 <+|amethyst> that's what gave me the idea
14:36 <+|amethyst> much of the stuff there is out of date
14:37 <+|amethyst> I should stop linking to it :)
14:37 < bmh> short domain name
14:37 <+|amethyst> when I registered it about 5 or 6 years ago, it was one of two three-letter domains left in .com, .net, and .org
14:37 < bmh> The shortest domain I have is ch4n.org
14:38 < alefury> |amethyst: so i can type any 3 letters, put .com after them, and that domain is taken? the fuck?
14:39 <+|amethyst> the other was w-b.org, and I figured that I would take the one that couldn't be taken by Warner Brothers through the UDRP
14:39 <+|amethyst> alefury:  lots of them are "this domain is for sale"
14:39 < alefury> ah
14:39 <+|amethyst> but that's going to be more expensive than registering something unused
14:42 < bmh> The most valuable unregistered site is probably "google.coop"
14:42 <+|amethyst> do you have to actually be a co-op to register in .coop ?
14:42 < bmh> Correct
14:43 <+|amethyst> I like the Montana Poultry Growers Cooperative
14:43 <+|amethyst> chicken.coop
14:43 < bmh> ha!
14:45 ۰۰-- Pacra [~Pacra@c-68-44-35-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:45 <+|amethyst> you always use bmh on IRC, correct?
14:45 <+|amethyst> s/always/usually/
14:45 < bmh> |amethyst: I prefer 'bh' but someone else is bh here
14:45 < bmh> I'm bh on quakenet
14:45 <+|amethyst> well, freenode is the important one for this purpose
14:46 < bmh> I've had the name registered for ages. Zannick can testify as to my existence :)
14:46 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r251e3ede3eec /crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix a duplicate message (Fixes #5142).
14:46 < CIA-112> |amethyst * rf703418444a9 /crawl-ref/git-hooks/crawl-ref-cia: Add bmh to the crawl-ref-cia hook.
14:46 < CIA-112> brendan * r2e2a398d1a4a /crawl-ref/source/asg.cc: Fixing a RNG error
14:46 < bmh> |amethyst: What does that hook do?
14:47 <+|amethyst> after the next CDO update, your commits will show up as  bmh * rxyzz  instead of "brendan"
14:47 < Zannick> i'm not on quakenet
14:47 <+MarvinPA_> makes CIA say "bmh" instead of "brendan", once something-or-other gets updated somewhere
14:47 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA
14:47 < bmh> ah-ha
14:47 <+MarvinPA> ah, cdo update
14:47 <+|amethyst> I assume it's a CDO update
14:47 <+|amethyst> not 100% certain about that
14:47 < bmh> Zannick: speak of the devil :)
14:48 < bmh> What I mean is that you can vouch for my existence in the meatspace.
14:48 < Zannick> oh, sure.
14:48 < mikee_> in the what
14:48 < Zannick> as long as you vouch for mine.
14:48 < bmh> Zannick is a real people. His laughter to speech ratio is approximately 2:1
14:49 < mikee_> lsr
14:49 <+|amethyst> They can even sing by squirting air through their meat.
14:50 < bmh> Are there any members of the devteam who have never met another member of the devteam in the real world?
14:50 <+|amethyst> I have not
14:50 <+MarvinPA> i imagine there are many!
14:50 <+MarvinPA> i haven't either, at least
14:50 < mikee_> they are in a lot of different countries
14:50 < Zannick> shame.
14:50 < mikee_> so i hear
14:51 < bmh> mikee_: Europe is tiny
14:51 < Zannick> you're missing on awkward non-crawl conversation!
14:51 <+MarvinPA> i think mu_ is the only other british dev
14:51 <+|amethyst> Cryp71c and I probably live not that far apart
14:51 < bmh> MarvinPA: I lived in England. That kind of makes me British
14:51 <+|amethyst> "not that far" in U.S. terms
14:52 < mikee_> one time i lived down the street from darren grey
14:52 <+|amethyst> which could mean a seven or eight hour drive
14:52 < bmh> these days "not far" is a function of time and money
14:52 < bmh> mikee_: who?
14:52 < mikee_> but i don't think he wanted to hang out with me
14:52 < mikee_> he is a somewhat known figure in roguelike circles
14:52 < mikee_> he made a few roguelikes and does roguelike radio i guess?
14:52 < bmh> For $1500 and 30 hours, you can pretty much get within 100 miles of any permanently occupied point on earth
14:53 <+MarvinPA> heh, "not that far" in us terms would be like, as far away as it's possible to be in uk terms
14:53 < bmh> MarvinPA: Is there actually England outside of London? :-D
14:53 <+MarvinPA> hah
14:54 < mikee_> there is a manchester
14:54 < mikee_> i've heard of it
14:54 <+|amethyst> they have a football team don't they?
14:54 < bmh> mikee_: I had the misfortune of visiting Manchester about 6 years ago.
14:54 <+MarvinPA> something like that
14:54 < mikee_> football or football
14:55 < dtsund> http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab252/dtsund/tilesbug.png <--- Does anyone have any idea exactly where that bug got perturbed out of existence?
14:55 <+MarvinPA> my parents are from manchester, it's all northern and cold and wet up there
14:55 <+|amethyst> MarvinPA:  my state is midway in size between Scotland and England
14:56 < bmh> dtsund: what's the bug?
14:56 <+|amethyst> with maybe half the population of London
14:56 < bmh> MarvinPA: Nevada has a bombing range that's about the size of England. :)
14:56 <+MarvinPA> haha
14:56 < dtsund> Whenever the tide changes the contents of a tile, the known flag is set on it.
14:57 < bmh> ah-ha. That *is* a bug. Sort of.
14:57 < dtsund> The result's only visible when playing tiles, but loading a game in tiles that's been run in console shows that too.
14:57 <+|amethyst> you said "perturbed out of existence"?  so it's fixed now?
14:58 < dtsund> In Stone Soup, yes.
14:58 < dtsund> It was in the 0.8.0 and 0.8.1 releases, though, and 0.8.1 is what Light's based on, and I can't figure out why it's happening.
15:00 < dtsund> Or what commit fixed it on Stone Soup.
15:00 <+|amethyst> maybe someone with a faster computer than I can bisect
15:03  * SamB is obviously NOT IT
15:03 < dtsund> I'd considered trying that, but realized I'd pretty much rather do anything else, so I figured I'd ask if anyone around here knew first.  I may have to.
15:04 < bmh> Why doesn't someone just modify gcc to make it work faster? :-P
15:04 < bmh> We could rewrite all of crawl in Rust!
15:04 <+|amethyst> -O0 helps
15:04 <+|amethyst> but only so much :)
15:04 < dtsund> FR: Makefile that supports LLVM
15:05 <+SamB> FR: send me a new computer
15:05 <+SamB> or less-old, even
15:07 < bmh> With all those crawl players, we must have a pretty sizable income. We should reinvest some of that cash in hardware ;)
15:08 <+|amethyst> FR: ads in the splash screen
15:08 < dtsund> You guys need to work on your f2p business model
15:09 < bmh> dtsund: f2p?
15:10 < dtsund> Free to Play.
15:10 < bhaak> FR: in-app purchases
15:11 < dtsund> Usually used in the context of commercially developed games that are free to download/install/play, but have a microtransaction system in place.
15:11 < ghallberg> Item skins.
15:11 < bmh> When you die, you get an ad. Watching the ad gives you a 'continue' code
15:11 < ghallberg> Those bowler hats will finally be useful!
15:11 < dtsund> For example, Team Fortress 2 is free, but players can purchase replacement weapons.
15:11 < bhaak> and hats?
15:12 < dtsund> And hats.
15:12 < bmh> I smell an April 1st plan...
15:13 ۰۰-- Twinge [Twinge@71-208-135-14.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:14 < bhaak> caution! the last april 1st joke got real
15:14 <+|amethyst> what was that?
15:14 < dtsund> Webtiles.
15:14 <+|amethyst> haha
15:14 < dtsund> Although it also mentioned social network integration.
15:14 < HangedMan> if crawl converts to social gaming I will commit suicide
15:15 < Zannick> Invite your friends to help you in-game as a zombie minion!
15:15 <+|amethyst> social network integration might be a bit much, but an RSS feed of Henzell/Gretell announcements would be kind of neat
15:16 < bmh> Uniques on twitter would be funny
15:17 < bmh> @BorisTheLich Killed another pesky adventurer.
15:17 < Zannick> @Sigmund Just killed another noob. LOL
15:17 < Zannick> @Sigmund @Edmund How's your kill count, little bro? ;)
15:17 < Zannick> @Edmund @Sigmund Screw you!
15:18 < bhaak> :-D
15:18 < dtsund> Anyway I guess I'll go back to Linux-land and start bisecting.
15:18 < dtsund> *sign*
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15:19 < bmh> social:internet::pet rock:70s
15:19 < bmh> Or pogs. Remember pogs?
15:19 < Zannick> @Ijyb FLOOR IS MINE!!!! RT @somenoob Just made it to D:2. Phew.
15:20 < Zannick> floor is his.
15:20 < Zannick> pogs is totally a social product
15:22 <+|amethyst> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogs#Military_uses
15:22 < bmh> |amethyst: I was just reading that!
15:22 ۰۰-- dtsund [~detasund@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:23 <+SamB> what are you supposed to use pogs for? coinflips in pokemon or something?
15:23 < bmh> |amethyst: Their monetary values seem to be in the realm of say, Rupees.
15:23 < bmh> SamB: you stack the pogs. Then you throw another pog at the stack. If you flip them over, you get to keep them.
15:24 <+|amethyst> bmh:  well, paper money is light
15:24 < bmh> SamB: Pogs is my favorite roguelike.
15:24 < HangedMan> !seen dpeg
15:24 < Henzell> I last saw dpeg at Sun Dec 25 00:53:20 2011 UTC (5d 19h 31m 8s ago) quitting with message Quit: Lost terminal.
15:24 < bmh> |amethyst: I mean the 5¢, 10¢ and 25¢ denominations
15:24 <+SamB> sounds like a strange variant of marbles
15:24 <+|amethyst> SamB:  more or less, yeah
15:25 < Zannick> crazy bones was a strange variant of marbles
15:25 < bmh> We should add a pogs minigame. The players would love that. It could be like Sokoban, but more fun!
15:25 <+|amethyst> bmh:  I mean, anything larger and they would just use paper money
15:25 <+SamB> no, no
15:25 <+SamB> crazy card games
15:25 < bmh> sure
15:25 < Zannick> a roguelike card game?
15:25 < Zannick> hmmmmm
15:26 < bmh> Zannick: sure. each game comes with a pistol. When you lose, your opponent caps you.
15:26  * SamB was thinking fizbin, or double fanucci
15:26 < Zannick> i tap two shoals and a swamp and summon louise
15:28 <+|amethyst> I tap your Louise with Icy Constrictor
15:29 < Zannick> The game crashes!
15:31 <+SamB> Somewhere, a developer groans because you aren't on IRC.
15:33  * SamB wonders how someone got named after getty
15:34 < CIA-112> |amethyst * rb9f3ef4a0758 /crawl-ref/source/dat/database/quotes.txt: Add a quote for ugly things (HangedMan).
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16:08 <+|amethyst> Any objection to making _shatter_walls also work on trees?
16:11 < Ragdoll> this is the eleventh(11) time in a row the altar of sif muna has failed to appear in the temple
16:11 <+|amethyst> very bad luck :(
16:11 < Ragdoll> i am starting to suspect this might just not be a coincidence anymore
16:12 < bmh> Can we get Sifumet already?
16:12 <+|amethyst> I experimented and got a sif altar 7/10 times
16:12 < Ragdoll> im not experimenting but actually attempting to get sif. i´ve gotten her a few times outside of the temple. checking the temple afterwards, no sif altar though.
16:13 < Ragdoll> this is getting personal!
16:13 <+|amethyst> (but that was using &~T to wizmode-teleport directly to temple)
16:13 <+|amethyst> I'm not sure when the contents versus overflow are determined
16:13 < Ragdoll> im diving as a mune to temple. it has been a painful and very nonrewarding experience
16:15 <+elliptic> well, if finding a pre-temple sif is helping you survive then that would bias things
16:15 <+elliptic> since that is very likely overflow, which would mean no sif in temple
16:16 < Ragdoll> no, im talking about diving to D:9 to find sif in a corner, then traveling back upwards and finding a temple with no sif in it
16:16 <+elliptic> oh
16:16 <+|amethyst> maybe bmh's RNG fix will help :)
16:17 < Ragdoll> sometimes when i get a moment of rationality i clear the D level normally till i walk upon a temple and/or sif altar, but no sif´s have been found in the temple that way either
16:17 ۰۰-- ZChris13 [~ZChris13@64.20.128.250.dyn-e-pool1.pool.hargray.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:21 <+|amethyst> HangedMan:  why would Trog give a banner for not worshipping Trog?
16:21 <+|amethyst> doh
16:21 < bmh> |amethyst: There should be no noticable effect on gameplay from my patch.
16:21 < Ragdoll> 12th time. lugonu corrupted temple. no sif
16:22 < bmh> Ragdoll: Sif hates you.
16:23 <+|amethyst> bmh:  There may be no rational effect on gameplay, but you touched the RNG god!  Either he'll be pleased, or angry
16:24 < bmh> |amethyst: show me on the RNG where he touched you...?
16:24 <+|amethyst> Right in the linear feedback shift register
16:27 < bmh> That's it. I'm playing a death kitty.
16:27 <+|amethyst> fene or femo of kiku?
16:27 < bmh> FeTM of Kiku
16:27 <+|amethyst> that works too :)
16:28 <+|amethyst> FeSt can train necro from the start
16:28 < bmh> I want to try death ninja the orb.
16:28 < bmh> St?
16:28 <+|amethyst> Stalker
16:28 < bmh> oh, stalker
16:28 <+|amethyst> nobody likes stalker, but it was my first online win
16:29 <+|amethyst> though I had a FeTM before that who splatted in Zot
16:29 <+|amethyst> tm still had evaporate then, though
16:29 < bmh> Zot. I hate Zot.
16:30 < bmh> speaking of places that suck -- someone should fix the abyss. That place is awful.
16:31 <+|amethyst> ha
16:31 < bmh> It really is. I'm so sorry.
16:31 <+|amethyst> you're probably the only person who understands it
16:31 <+|amethyst> enough to fix it, I mean
16:32 < bmh> galehar groks it, but he's away
16:34 < bmh> someone else should write it in the interest of spreading expertise :)
16:37 <+|amethyst> great, another huge chunk of code to try to understand
16:37 <+|amethyst> I spent a few hour last night tracing through the travel and LevelInfo code
16:38 < bmh> |amethyst: 'eh, the changes I made are pretty darn small. The trick is every couple of turns it asks if the dungeon should change
16:38 <+|amethyst> s/hour/hours/
16:38 < bmh> It would just be a matter of changing that code to have a timer or two: Time to next change, time to make change. So you'd have a quiet period timer, followed by a burst of activity
16:38 < bmh> and less water.
16:39 < bmh> I really hate the trog/book burning altar.
16:39 < Eronarn> it is bad
16:39 < dtsund> http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=add7ad768988872738f422b798b64e45f544ecbe <--- AHA
16:40 < bmh> Could we place the book on the far side of the altar to prevent apporting it?
16:40 <+|amethyst> dtsund:  oh...
16:40 <+|amethyst> dtsund:  I did a git log on dgn-shoals.cc but didn't even think to check the tiles code
16:40 < Eronarn> there doesn't even need to be a book
16:41 <+|amethyst> put it behind glass
16:41 < bmh> or make it a book of "summon butterflies" or "project noise"
16:41 <+|amethyst> or apportation
16:41 < dtsund> |amethyst: I'd already done that and concluded it probably wasn't a bug in the Shoals code itself, yeah.
16:41 <+|amethyst> that would be just
16:41 < bmh> ha.
16:41 < Eronarn> i like that idea
16:42 < Gretell> Elynae (L20 NaAK) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 941 failed. (Crypt:5)
16:42 < dtsund> The 'aha' moment was when I trawled Mantis again and found a report that said it happened when a monster submerged outside LOS as well.
16:45 < Wensley> bmh: just saw that you proposed rewriting crawl in rust, and I approve of this decision
16:46 < bmh> Wensley: The only time rewriting thing ever makes sense is when you're getting paid to do it. ;)
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16:47 < Ragdoll> i will never4 forget this day as the 13th time sif stood my in in a row in the temple
16:47 < Wensley> not necessarily, by writing a large program in a new language and then providing feedback we're indirectly helping to make that language better! rust it is, then. I'm glad we're unanimous
16:47 <+|amethyst> bmh:  all right, I'm out.   I'll look at the abyss stuff tonight; pointers would be appreciated
16:48 < dtsund> FR: Rewrite Crawl in INTERCAL
16:48 < bmh> |amethyst: sure. I won't be on IRC much, but feel free to e-mail me
16:48 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r8edfbb6050f6 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/altar/trog_burn_book.des: Unspoil the Trog book altar, sort of.
16:48 < bmh> Ragdoll: you need to let this go. Maybe she just isn't that into you?
16:48 < dtsund> Call it INTERCrAwL
16:49 < Wensley> haha
16:49 < Ragdoll> i am getting mixed signals. she shows up outside temple
16:49 < bmh> dtsund: you're a bad bad person.
16:49 < Wensley> Ragdoll:
16:49 < Ragdoll> playing hard to get
16:49 < Wensley> ??fanficion
16:49 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled fanficion in my learndb.
16:49 < Wensley> ??fanfiction
16:49 < Henzell> fanfiction[1/5]: "Celestial Star-Crossed Lovers Eternal", by Wensley: http://i54.tinypic.com/24qp8vd.png
16:50 < bmh> wtf...
16:50 < Wensley> hot trog x sif fan fiction
16:50 < bhaak> ??slash_fanfiction
16:50 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled slash_fanfiction in my learndb.
16:50 < bmh> trog/sif.
16:51 < bhaak> :(
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16:54 < Ragdoll> during my sif persuasions, i have disocvered many okawaru altars
16:54 < Ragdoll> im not sure how to feel about this
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18:26 < CIA-112> galehar * recb1cff5a3b4 /crawl-ref/source/util/columnise-credits.pl: Properly fix #5122.
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18:34 ۰۰-- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
18:34 <@dpeg> hi
18:34 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
18:34 <@dpeg> !messages
18:34 < Henzell> (1/2) Wensley said (4d 4h 22m 22s ago): You've got mail!
18:35 <@dpeg> this is true... and I cannot do the work right now :(
18:35 <@dpeg> !messages
18:35 < Henzell> (1/1) Wensley said (2h 57m 29s ago): would it be better for me to put the patches on mantis for someone else to review?
18:35 <@dpeg> Wensley: around?
18:35 <+elliptic> dpeg: hey, what do you think of removing -cTele from the random half of bailey that have it?
18:35 <@dpeg> elliptic: probably good, yes
18:36 <@dpeg> cTele has issues but baileys won't solve them
18:36 < Wensley> dpeg: hello :)
18:36 <@dpeg> Wensley: yes, you can do me a favour by submitting them as a patch
18:36 < Wensley> MarvinPA was yelling at me for doing things in private email rather than on the mantis
18:36 <@dpeg> poor Wensley 
18:36 < Wensley> ;_;
18:36 <@dpeg> !beer Wensley 
18:37 < Wensley> haha
18:37 < mikee_> that command actually makes you into beer
18:37 <@dpeg> !seen MarvinPA_ 
18:37 < Henzell> I last saw MarvinPA_ at Fri Dec 30 21:09:31 2011 UTC (2h 27m 46s ago) saying a stylish way to go on ##crawl.
18:37 < mikee_> it doesn't give you a beer
18:37 <@dpeg> btw, thanks to everyone involved with the awesome polish work on constriction
18:37 <@dpeg> you rock!
18:38 <@dpeg> What do we think balance-wise about monster constriction at this point?
18:38 < Wensley> I think elliptic wanted to wait and see how many people actually died to it
18:38 < mikee_> i haven't had a chance to 'enjoy' it yet
18:38 < Wensley> before nerfing it into oblivion
18:39 <+elliptic> wensley: that was someone else
18:39 <+elliptic> I think it is clearly overpowered
18:39 <@dpeg> minmay has a point that it would be even more interesting if it was a ranged effect but I fail to see a theme behind that...
18:39 < Wensley> oh maybe you were referring to increasing the xp value of constrictors
18:39 <+elliptic> the balance is quite far off, but the focus has been on fixing bugs so far
18:39 <@dpeg> ...however, we should remove monster naga teleporting anyway and could replace it with blink-to-target instead
18:40 <@dpeg> elliptic: what is overpowered -- monster constriction, player constriction or both?
18:40 < mikee_> minmay complained recently about having to take a hatch into v:8 because there was a constrictor near the stairs
18:40 <+elliptic> I think both, though I have more experience with monster constriction
18:40 <@dpeg> mikee_: hm, that sounds good to me
18:40 < mikee_> a little more drastic of a forced decision than i would like =P
18:41 <@dpeg> (some other options are available as well, of course)
18:41 <@dpeg> like going in with haste and tele
18:41 < mikee_> i think he really believed (and he may be right) that he had no choice
18:41 <@dpeg> or casting a form, if you can
18:41 <@dpeg> or summons
18:41 < jeanjacques> player constriction seems to strong early on. monster constriction is nasty against any combo relying on ev/sh for defense.
18:41 < mikee_> possibly there was a solution yes
18:42 <+elliptic> the problem is that the difference between being constricted and being unconstricted is really really large
18:42 <+elliptic> so it feels like an abrupt change when something starts to constrict you
18:42 <+elliptic> it would be better if it were more gradual
18:43 <@dpeg> elliptic: do you think the basic mechanic can stay for now? E.g. the tele rules? In other words, do we talk about rules or numbers?
18:43 <+elliptic> like, maybe if it took a few turns for constriction to stop translocations
18:44 < mikee_> build up effects are nice
18:44 <+elliptic> with player constriction, it is just a matter of tweaking numbers, especially the formula for determining chance of success... your chance of succeeding in constricting monsters is really really high, at least early on
18:45 <+elliptic> for monster constriction, the tele rules might need some tweaking too (along the lines of what I said above), not sure
18:46 <@dpeg> I am a little worried that softening the rules makes teleportation yet again a standard reply to a threat but I guess you're aware of that.
18:47 <@dpeg> I think that regardless of changes, monster nagas should lose the Teleport Other spell.
18:47 <+elliptic> yes
18:48 <@dpeg> Technically, there are the issues of acidic targets and hazardous constrict-teleports
18:49 <+elliptic> there was the suggestion of making gelatinous monsters unconstrictable
18:49 <+elliptic> which seemed reasonable to me
18:50 <@dpeg> I agree
18:50 <@dpeg> fits with nets, I think
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19:09 < ghallberg> dpeg: You mentioned something about ranged constriction above?
19:11 < Eronarn>  < jeanjacques> player constriction seems to strong early on. monster constriction is nasty against any combo relying on ev/sh for defense.
19:12 < Eronarn> part of this is how the formula works, constriction attacks don't work like normal attacks at all
19:12 < Eronarn> you can't use sh to protect against being constricted
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19:16 <@dpeg> ghallberg: constriction triggers a tactical emergency but you won't experience it if you can kill all the monsters from afar -- that's why minmay suggested constriction as a ranged effect
19:16 <@dpeg> Eronarn: but what is wrong with that? AC helps against constriction damage, EV helps against getting constricted
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19:20 < Eronarn> dpeg: the current formula treats starting constriction as completely separate from the normal attack system
19:20 < Eronarn> for example, the opponent being invisible won't affect your constriction odds
19:20 < Eronarn> and +/-acc items won't either
19:21 < Eronarn> imo this is bad because it is needlessly different, not intuitive, and not expected
19:21 < Eronarn> ac should help against damage, and ev should help against being constricted in the first place, but there's no reason to introduce a new formula for deciding whether a constriction attack hits
19:21 <@dpeg> iirc, AC does help against damage
19:22 < Eronarn> dpeg: what you said is true of the current formula, but it gives different results than the melee formula, even though constriction is logically a type of melee attack
19:22 < ghallberg> dpeg: I was thining frog tongues.
19:22 < Eronarn> like an unseen horror will be trivial to constrict, even if it's very hard to hit in melee
19:22 < ghallberg> Though they're just sticky in real life, not wrap-aroundy.
19:23  * ghallberg has been playing left 4 dead.
19:23 < ghallberg> Smokers do that thing with the tounge.
19:24 < Eronarn> basically the current formula is str x size vs. ev x size, it should be acc vs. ev followed by str/size vs. str/size (with a proxy for monster str since it doesn't exist yet)
19:27 <@dpeg> accuracy is not an intrinsic property of actors (player or monster)
19:28 < Eronarn> dpeg: well, yes, it's affected by a variety of local conditions
19:28 < Eronarn> that's the point :P
19:28 < Eronarn> right now, the check ignores everything except intrinsic properties. this is bad
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19:35 < dtsund> How about constriction as a spell?
19:35 < dtsund> Entanglement or somesuch.
19:36 <@dpeg> dtsund: in addition or as replacement to the current version?
19:37 < dtsund> For a ranged version.
19:37 < Wensley> eringya's grasping vines
19:37 < dtsund> I was actually thinking of vines.
19:37 < Wensley> use it to replace the slow spell
19:37 < Wensley> because everyone hates the slow spell
19:38 < Eronarn> spell that summons a new P monster that's a vine that constricts would be cool
19:38  * dtsund doesn't hate the Slow spell
19:38 < Eronarn> smite targeted, maybe
19:38 <@dpeg> Wensley: yes, the slow has little appeal even if it works and is useful: being faster is visible right away, someone else being slower not so much
19:38 < Eronarn> Wensley: it was discussed to make slow be a fireball-size spell
19:39 < Eronarn> but only like L3 or so
19:39 < Wensley> that could be cool, but isn't it just a bad leda's then
19:39 < Eronarn> well, it doesn't affect you or your allies
19:39 < dtsund> I thought Slow stacked with Leda's
19:39 < Eronarn> and is only one school
19:39 < Eronarn> dtsund: unless someone fixed it, leda's just slows monsters, which is incredibly dumb
19:39 < dtsund> ...
19:40 ۰۰-- jeanjacques [~jejacques@port-92-200-17-111.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit []
19:42 < dtsund> Anyway, was there still the plan to make spell failure display as a fraction?
19:42 < ZChris13> elliptic: nice dit
19:42 < ZChris13> edit
19:42 < Eronarn> hmm maybe summ/pois for a constrictor vine?
19:42 < Eronarn> there's only summon scorps right now with that spell combo, right?
19:46 <+kilobyte> if the point is to add that as a cool gimmick rather than a way to alter existing schools, what about Fedhas?
19:49 < Eronarn> kilobyte: i've long been in favor of adding more fedhas stuff :P
19:54 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA
19:55 <+kilobyte> !tell evilmike a vault idea: part of one of ZotDef maps, with a defensive arrangement of oklobs, burning bushes, lightning spires and an ice statue
19:55 < Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let evilmike know.
19:57 < dtsund> How many of those thing see invisible?
19:57 <+kilobyte> dpeg: what do you think about subtractor snakes?  Unless someone comes with a damn good idea, I'd scrap them.
19:58 <+kilobyte> dpeg: a lame untranslateable pun plus a boring copy of killer klowns.  Can just spawn more klowns for the same effect.
19:59 <+kilobyte> dtsund: burning bushes; I guess lightning spires should too
19:59 < dtsund> @??burning bush
19:59 < Gretell> burning bush (P) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 28-62 | AC/EV: 10/0 | Flags: plant, see invisible, !sil | Res: magic(immune), fire, poison, drown, neg+++ | XP: 313 | Sp: flame puff (3d7).
20:00 <@dpeg> kilobyte: your choice... humour is non-negotiable. If you think they're lame, cut them.
20:00 < dtsund> If they had sticky flame, that might be enough to make invis not trivialize it
20:00 <+kilobyte> they started as a copy of electric eels who don't (and were problematic for other reasons)
20:01 <+elliptic> !killsby subtractor snake
20:01 < Sequell> No games for * (ckiller=subtractor snake)
20:01 <+elliptic> can't we at least wait until they get a kill before axing them
20:01 <+kilobyte> dpeg: I mean, there is nothing to them but a pun.  Killer klowns are funny on their own (fear of clowns, etc), death cobs are nice too.
20:02 <@dpeg> who invented subtractor snakes?
20:02 <@dpeg> the inventor generally does not like the cut
20:02 <+kilobyte> elliptic: unlikely, they're not meant to be a major threat solo
20:03 <+elliptic> dpeg: I don't remember who wanted to use the pun first
20:03 <+elliptic> maybe kilobyte does since he's the one who actually went and implemented them :P
20:03 <+kilobyte> dpeg: I made this pun in a commit message, someone on IRC wanted them, I implemented.
20:05 <@dpeg> I see
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20:07 <+kilobyte> 00:40 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r2ae9ab3ee50a /crawl-ref/source/ (16 files in 3 dirs): Rename the enums for ball pythons and subtracter snakes to match visible names.
20:07 <+kilobyte> 00:42 < Eronarn> kilobyte: subtracter snakes? you taunt me so :(
20:07 <+kilobyte> 00:43 <+elliptic> can we have subtracter snakes in zot
20:07 <+kilobyte> 00:47 <+kilobyte> elliptic: what would those subtracter snakes do?
20:07 <+kilobyte> 00:54 <+elliptic> could make a klown-like attack for subtracter snakes with a different selection of flavours, I guess
20:07 <+kilobyte> 01:09 < res> kilobyte: the word is subtractor
20:08 <+elliptic> well, I don't mind losing them
20:09 <+elliptic> "Subtract subtractor snakes." is a decent commit message!
20:09 <@dpeg> yes :)
20:09 <@dpeg> off for a while, see you sometime in January
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20:10 <+kilobyte> alternatively they could stay in 0.10 since there won't be translations yet
20:10 <+kilobyte> still boring though
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20:15 < Eronarn> what is their attack currently
20:15 <+elliptic> @??subtractor snake
20:15 < Gretell> unknown monster: "subtractor snake"
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20:16 <+kilobyte> 25 AT_BITE AF_SUBTRACTOR
20:19 <+kilobyte> AF_POISON_NASTY, AF_ROT, AF_DRAIN_XP, AF_ANTIMAGIC, AF_DRAIN_STAT, AF_POISON_STAT
20:23 < bmh> subtractor snake? ha.
20:27 < Eronarn> kilobyte: make it draining+antimagic on every hit, rather than random
20:27 < Eronarn> we have nothing that antimagics in zot right now other than ghost moths, right?
20:32 ۰۰-- Pingas [~Pingas@40.181.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:33 <+kilobyte> someone mentioned changing their tiles to have flowing colours
20:33 <+kilobyte> and now I see there's an australian aboriginal myth about Rainbow Serpents
20:35 <+kilobyte> its name (aboriginal, not translated) was stolen by paleontologists for an extinct giant constrictor snake
20:36 < alefury> dtsund: it was also in 0.9 i think
20:37 < alefury> the tiles bug in shoals, that is
20:37 < alefury> reading the backlog...
20:38 <+kilobyte> heh, "malevolent punisher of law breakers" -- current subtractors are marked as chaotic
20:38 < dtsund> alefury: No, I tested it in 0.9.
20:39 < dtsund> When I first saw it, it was in Light and I was convinced I'd done something wrong, until I tested vanilla 0.8 (I guess my 0.8 win must've not have had Shoals or I'd have noticed).  If it were still in 0.9, I'd have reported it.
20:59 < alefury> hm, i remember the problem, and i didnt play a lot of 0.9 trunk
21:00 < alefury> its definitely not in .10, i kept an eye out for it when i was in shoals last time
21:01 < alefury> i never saw a commit message mentioning this being fixed though, and i dont think there was a mantis report (shame on me)
21:34 < bmh> Crawl monster idea: http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/16222577 :-D
21:35 < bmh> oh god. I can't watch that. It's horrifying.
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22:00 < Henzell> minmay the Demonologist (L18 DESu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,26) (the Orb) (D:1)
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22:29 < Wensley> bmh: I think that most things that live in the ocean are terrifying
22:29 < Wensley> have you ever heard of goblin sharks?
22:30 < bmh> Wensley: I'm never going to swim again.
22:30 < ZChris13> hahaha
22:30 < bmh> mostly because I'm afraid of electric eels.
22:30 < ZChris13> ahahahaha
22:30 < ZChris13> They can't shoot lightning at you you know that
22:31 < Eronarn> marine isopods. tube worms. stonefish. mantis shrimp. hmm what else
22:31 < G-Flex> giant isopods are great
22:31 < Eronarn> oh, spider crabs of course
22:31 < G-Flex> any cephalopod is pretty messed up
22:31 < bmh> leopard shrimp
22:31 < G-Flex> squids that flash different colors and then dart away in unison
22:31 < bmh> G-Flex: reverse ugly things.
22:31 < Eronarn> The Japanese spider crab has the greatest leg span of any arthropod, reaching 3.8 metres (12 ft) from claw to claw. 
22:31 < Wensley> goblin sharks can have reaching constriction, because they fire their jaws at you
22:32 < G-Flex> bmh: FR: beautiful things
22:32 < ZChris13> Aren't they called angels
22:32 < bmh> G-Flex: no thanks :)
22:32 < bmh> Eronarn: that is horrifying.
22:32 < Eronarn> add an ugliest thing unique
22:32 < G-Flex> angels don't change color
22:33 < ZChris13> Hmm
22:33 < bmh> (Are they tasty?)
22:33 < Eronarn> yes
22:33 < Eronarn> so are coconut crabs
22:33 < G-Flex> right, they taste like coconut
22:33 < G-Flex> hence the name
22:33 < Eronarn> However, the American lobster (Homarus americanus), another crustacean and the largest member of Astacidea (lobsters and crayfish), rivals the Japanese spider crab in mass, if not overall dimension. The largest verified lobster, also the heaviest verified arthropod, was caught in 1977 off of Nova Scotia and weighed 20.13 kg (44.4 lb) at a length of 1.07 m (3.5 ft) long.
22:33 < Eronarn> add lobsters to crawl
22:34 < G-Flex> I find it amusing that kobold meat is poisonous to kobolds
22:34 < ZChris13> Make lobsters really badass
22:34 < G-Flex> although I suppose that's true of a few real-world animals maybe
22:35 < bmh> Angler fish are creepy. The males are in a constant state of failure.
22:35 < G-Flex> that's not that creepy, so am I
22:35 < bmh> They need to find a female and latch on or die. Then they atrophy into sex organs.
22:35 < Eronarn> ??todo monsters
22:35 < Henzell> todo monsters[1/11]: sloths, cassowaries, moas, hoatzin, octopus,  locusts, paper wasps, bullet ants, mantis shrimp
22:35 < Eronarn> just add everything on that list
22:35 < Eronarn> they're all terrifying or awesome
22:36 < G-Flex> why aren't there any cephalopod enemies
22:36 < G-Flex> unless krakens count
22:36 < bmh> Eronarn: I *am* writing a roguelike.
22:36 < Eronarn> G-Flex: um, krakens do count
22:36 < Eronarn> what else would they be
22:36 < Eronarn> also you can run across octopode zombies iirc
22:36 < ZChris13> fish
22:36 < G-Flex> they'd be screwed up and mythological enough not to really fit into any realistic earth taxonomy :P
22:36 < G-Flex> but yeah they're basically giant squids I guess
22:37 < G-Flex> but I meant more mundane ones
22:37 < Eronarn> @??octopode
22:37 < Gretell> octopode (x) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 26-57 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 15, 10 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(8), drown | XP: 226.
22:37 < G-Flex> those don't really show up anywhere
22:37 < Eronarn> they have the best description but i can't recall if they have a quote
22:37 < G-Flex> unless... I think I saw one in the abyss once
22:37 < bmh> how about box jellyfish
22:37 < Eronarn> well they're not really finished, i just gave them random stats
22:37 < Eronarn> box jellies rule
22:37 < ZChris13> Isn't that what current jellyfish are
22:37 < G-Flex> jellyfish with paralyzing attacks
22:38 < Eronarn> ZChris13: no
22:38 < ZChris13> Ah
22:38 < Eronarn> current jellyfish just suck terribly
22:38 < ZChris13> Go for it?
22:38 < bmh> Sweet merciful christ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantula_hawk
22:38 < ZChris13> I like the thing at the top
22:38 < ZChris13> For the psychedelic rock band, see Tarantula Hawk (band).
22:41 < Eronarn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lamprey
22:43 < bmh> jawless fish are gross.
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23:28 < CIA-112> elliptic * ra8f5869d55f4 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/ (bailey.des icecave.des): Remove -cTele from six baileys and an ice cave.
23:30 < dtsund> elliptic: Did you just push that, or has CIA been lagging for you too?
23:30 <+elliptic> just pushed it
23:31 <+elliptic> (I forgot to push it earlier)
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 31 00:00:26 2011