--- Log opened Tue Dec 27 00:00:09 2011
--- Day changed Tue Dec 27 2011
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01:58 <+Napkin> moin guys
01:58 < Henzell> Napkin: You have 7 messages. Use !messages to read them.
01:58 <+Napkin> hey |amethyst 
02:01 <+Napkin> |amethyst, no need to use !tell with me, unless my irc client really got disconnected :)
02:02 <+Napkin> much easier to read your messages without all those extra letters, and i don't have to persuade henzell to delete them all ;)
02:06 <+Napkin> and thanks for looking into it!
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03:52 <@due> yawn
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04:40 < Gretell> Maniacuz (L27 DDEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1110 failed. (Vault:7)
04:40 < Gretell> Maniacuz (L27 DDEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1110 failed. (Vault:7)
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05:15 <+Napkin> hey due!
05:15 <+Napkin> I heard that ;>
05:32 <+kilobyte> CDO does appear to have libpthread in the chroot, not sure about CAO.  Just warning you in case it breaks :p
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10:34 <+Cryp71c> Morning!
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11:07 < Eronarn> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0UC06V4144&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL122611&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL122611-_-EMC-122611-Index-_-RemoteRadioControlled-_-9SIA0UC06V4144-L031C when did newegg get so weird
11:07 < Eronarn> 'giant 5 foot radio controlled inflatable Big Mouth Bass.'
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11:11 < Eronarn> oh hey, this is the wrong channel entirely
11:16 < Gretell> jeanjacques (L22 HOSu) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4033 failed. (Snake:5)
11:17 < jeanjacques> !lm . crash -log
11:17 < Sequell> 10. jeanjacques, XL23 VpWr, T:56989 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/jeanjacques/crash-jeanjacques-20111201-182120.txt
11:17 < jeanjacques> hmm
11:17 < jeanjacques> !lm . crash
11:18 < Sequell> 11. [2011-12-27] jeanjacques the Fencer (L22 HOSu) ASSERT(attk flavour == AF REACH || weapon && weapon reach(*weapon)) in 'melee attack.cc' at line 4033 failed on turn 31282. (Snake:5)
11:18 < jeanjacques> !lm . crash -log
11:18 < Sequell> 11. jeanjacques, XL22 HOSu, T:31282 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/jeanjacques/crash-jeanjacques-20111227-161650.txt
11:20 <+|amethyst> I guess one naga pushed the other out of the way?
11:54 <+elliptic> <Elynae> Blade-: constricted a salamander, disto blinked the salamander, so we were both over lava, then killed them
11:54 <+elliptic> <Elynae> and there i was, suspended over lava
11:55 <+elliptic> apparently distortion + constriction is fairly entertaining (and buggy)
12:00 < Eronarn> salamanders should have constriction, btw
12:00 < Eronarn> if they don't already
12:06 <+elliptic> pretty sure they don't... only a few monsters do
12:06 < Eronarn> i figured they might be forgotten
12:07 <+MarvinPA> they tend to have reaching weapons, don't they?
12:08 <+MarvinPA> probably wouldn't get many opportunities to constrict
12:08 < Eronarn> ??centaurs doom
12:08 < st_> electrical eels should drag you into water via contriction
12:08 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled centaurs_doom in my learndb.
12:08 < Eronarn> what was the name of that one again
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12:24 < blueDave> right now constriction doesn't have dragging, though that could be interesting
12:24 < blueDave> perhaps ctrl+direction to drag, simple direction releases
12:24 < blueDave> or vice versa
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12:48 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  I don't know about ctrl-direction... what if you're constricting something then decide you want to attack an adjacent ally
12:49 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  btw, places we've seen the "reaching" crash without reaching:  trample, monsters displacing one another, felids dying... probably swap card too
12:50 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  probably constriction should check if the monster is adjacent before doing damage... and maybe some of those methods of movement should be blocked when constricting/constricted
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12:52 <+|amethyst> the damage part itself should probably be abstracted into a new function, since it's used in both the melee and no-attack cases
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12:53 <+|amethyst> I can take care of some of that if you're busy, but I didn't want to introduce conflicts without asking you first
12:54 <+kilobyte> also, player vs monster, there's nasty duplication
12:55 <+kilobyte> made a few edits there, lemme push so there'd be less conflicts
12:55 <+|amethyst> I removed some of the duplication, but the noattack code still appears twice
12:56 <+kilobyte> (spam warning)
12:58 <+|amethyst> oh, I see a merge request
12:58 <+|amethyst> for the melee case
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r14997603d9ea /crawl-ref/source/ (Makefile Makefile.obj): Simplify the makefile a bit, remove incorrect comments.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * ra9c5b7343de7 /crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Two more splash screens by Denzi.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * ra4be4093d33a /crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Fix a race condition in mkdir -p saves/db
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rfcc243cf4056 /crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Remove crash-d.cc and crash-w.cc, the stubs always were in crash-u.cc
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r0e9f143427c8 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Threading support.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r3cfe69303449 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/Makefile: Properly clean up after rltile build.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rd09eecad6c62 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Disallow polymorphing or derived undead for subtractor snakes.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r77673d15f8bc /crawl-ref/source/ (artefact.cc itemprop.cc): Make pearl dragon armours curseable.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r9ad61aa9b85f /crawl-ref/source/database.cc: Build databases in parallel.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * ra67883206ac7 /crawl-ref/source/ (Makefile Makefile.obj): Fix makefile hacks that caused incomplete cleans.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r9f3787476581 /crawl-ref/.gitignore: Git ignores for webtiles cruft.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rde2de2baa770 /crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Clean compiled Python files on "make clean".
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rd695168d1577 /crawl-ref/source/ (14 files): Replace a hardcoded constant in an (approximately) million places.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r2a30fde08e28 /crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc species.cc): Fix player::mons_species() claiming almost everyone is human.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r591cb9648836 /crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h monster.cc monster.h player.cc player.h): Make it easier to query species of a zombified monster.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r9f0e7f371c1f /crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc monster.cc): Fix constriction by octopode zombies and octopode uniques.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rd7ae4d8ceee6 /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Let Trog and Kiku accept abomination kills again.
12:59 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rfc68c24150e6 /crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc menu.cc player.cc player.h tiledoll.cc): Drop the display of nets on player dolls.
12:59 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  touch all the files!
13:00 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r289953552f1f /crawl-ref/source/ (stash.cc stash.h): Drop an option aggressive_verify you can't turn off anymore.
13:00 < CIA-112> kilobyte * re3fa086cb21d /crawl-ref/source/ (colour.cc colour.h mon-abil.cc mon-data.h tilepick.cc): Use a regular elemental colour rather than recolouring hacks for subtractors.
13:00 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r21636d1a225a /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/tool/tile_list_processor.cc: Make private tiledef data static.
13:00 < CIA-112> kilobyte * refef7423681c /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-place.cc tilepick.cc): Don't set tile_num when not needed, fix a tiles-in-console data loss.
13:00 < CIA-112> neunon * r24100b94a1c3 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-util.h): mon-data: eliminate static initialization calls for mon_energy_usage
13:00 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rbf89e47072d1 /crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc dungeon.cc los.cc mon-util.cc notes.cc output.cc): Make a bunch of uninitialized variables static.
13:01 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r05f29f41b6f8 /crawl-ref/source/ (13 files): Make most of initialized data static.
13:05 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  I'm not sure how I feel about crawling corpses and macabre masses being demonic for god-kill purposes... they're noxp anyway, so it doesn't matter
13:08 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  btw, what's up with the montiers stuff using #if TAG_MAJOR_VERSION <= 33 ? 
13:10 <+SamB_XP> that DOES sound odd ...
13:11 <+|amethyst> ah, 5384ae0:  Don't delete montier tracking yet.  I'll need it soon.
13:11 <+kilobyte> I'll need that for Okawaru changes for 0.11, and there'll be a compat break in 0.10
13:12 <+|amethyst> but montiers are still going to be removed/changed on the *next* save compat break?
13:12 <+kilobyte> SamB_XP: if parallel db rebuilds cause a regression for you, please shout
13:12 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: did you know that crawl assumes that bold is not actually bold?
13:13 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: what sort of regression?
13:13 <+|amethyst> you.montiers that is
13:13 <+kilobyte> speed, massive swapping stuff away, etc
13:13 <+SamB_XP> ah
13:15 <+kilobyte> worst machine I checked it on was some ancient 1-way Windows box with 320MB RAM, over SMB.  It sped up from 1m55s to 1m35s.
13:15 < Eronarn> @??subtractor
13:15 < Gretell> unknown monster: "subtractor"
13:15 < Eronarn> @??subtractor snake
13:15 < Gretell> unknown monster: "subtractor snake"
13:15 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: you mean, it was running the game over SMB?>
13:16 <+SamB_XP> I can certainly see why that might be sped up
13:16 <+kilobyte> so I guess limitting threads is not needed
13:16 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: how do I benchmark db rebuild?
13:16 <+kilobyte> beh, I should have checked it on the local disk too
13:17 <+kilobyte> get the rest built (--builddb for example), rm -rf saves/db && sync && time ./crawl --buil[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[Dddb
13:17 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: that's a lot of escape sequences ...
13:18 <+|amethyst> --builddb presumably :)
13:18 <+kilobyte> hrmdammit :p
13:18 <+kilobyte> yeah
13:18 <+SamB_XP> where are these flags listed?
13:19 <+kilobyte> type "./crawl death to sanity"
13:20 <+kilobyte> beh, --builddb is not shown there
13:20 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  doesn't list --builddb and the other admin options (save editing etc)
13:20 <+kilobyte> I guess only stuff useful for the user is
13:20 <+SamB_XP> there should be a --help=dev or something!
13:20 <+SamB_XP> which itself *would* be listed on --help
13:20 <+kilobyte> you can always RTFS :)
13:21 <+|amethyst> it's a little inconsistent, since -seed isn't really a user option :)
13:21 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: it was a player who requested that
13:21 <+kilobyte> someone wanted reproducible games
13:22 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: I suppose
13:22 <+SamB_XP> but if that's the tack we're taking, we could at least supply a file and function name at which to start reading ...
13:23 <+kilobyte> that'd require some effort!
13:24 <+SamB_XP> a lot less than either (a) coding a system to display all the flags automatically or (b) manually updating help text would be
13:25 <+kilobyte> objdump -t|grep '\.bss'|cut -c61-|sort|uniq -c|sort
13:25 <+kilobyte> objdump -t ./crawl
13:25 <+SamB_XP> anyway, 0.10-a0-2926-gae15d2e gives me this:
13:25 <+kilobyte> note the crapload of duplicated objects
13:25 <+SamB_XP> ./crawl --builddb  3.04s user 0.36s system 70% cpu 4.820 total
13:26 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: what sort of objects?
13:27 <+kilobyte> NO_CURSOR, INVALID_COORD, etc
13:27 <+|amethyst> btw, the interaction of -sprint-map and -zotdef is funny
13:28 <+kilobyte> I didn't know a C++ object with an initializer instead of being merged gets duplicated
13:30 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: are you looking at something besides an ELF system or Windows?
13:31 <+kilobyte> ELF
13:31 <+SamB_XP> |amethyst: what is it?
13:31 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: I don't see anything remotely resembling those here ...
13:31 <+SamB_XP> what compiler?
13:32 <+kilobyte> gcc4.6, Debian
13:32 <+|amethyst> SamB_XP:  oh, it's not just with -zotdef
13:32 <+|amethyst> SamB_XP:  basically, you can specify any map
13:32 <+|amethyst> SamB_XP:  in either mode
13:33 <+|amethyst> SamB_XP:  e.g. crawl -sprint_map evilmike_holy_pan
13:33 <+|amethyst> err, crawl -sprint -sprint-map evilmike_holy_pan
13:34 <+|amethyst> likewise with -zotdef but that crashes when the monsters can't pathfind
13:35 <+SamB_XP> |amethyst: I guess we might want to verify the map being on the list, then -- though perhaps not in wizmode?
13:35 <+|amethyst> SamB_XP:  check for the correct map tag
13:37 <+SamB_XP> honestly, I had no idea that flag worked for non-sprint
13:38 <+|amethyst> it only works in those two modes afaict
13:39 <+|amethyst> arena checks anyway
13:39 <+|amethyst> I'm doing a 4x build so it will be a little while before I can do any work
13:40 <+SamB_XP> |amethyst: I would assume it also works in tutorial mode, if it works in those two
13:41 <+|amethyst> SamB_XP:  you're correct
13:41 <+|amethyst> it doesn't work in arena, though, since it has its own way to specify the map
13:42 <+SamB_XP> |amethyst: yeah
13:43 <+|amethyst> 254020 neil the Shield-Bearer (level 1, 19/19 HPs) Began as a Minotaur Fighter on Dec 27, 2011. Escaped with the Orb! The game lasted 00:00:17 (102 turns).
13:43 <+|amethyst> that's with -sprint -sprint-map zotvault  :)
13:43 <+SamB_XP> I would certainly know that it doesn't share the mechanism used be sprint, tutorial, and zotdef ;-)
13:44 <+SamB_XP> since I did most of the work for adding zotdef to the list
13:44 <+|amethyst> that's right
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13:52 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  An object declaration, however, is also a definition unless it contains
13:52 <+|amethyst>  the extern specifier and has no initializer (3.1). A definition causes the appropriate amount of storage to
13:52 <+|amethyst>     be reserved and any appropriate initialization (8.5) to be done.
13:57 < alefury> so whats the plan on branching 0.10?
13:58 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: objdump --syms --section=.bss ./crawl | awk '{print $6}'|sort|uniq -c|sort -n -r|less
13:58 <+SamB_XP> alefury: I think hints still needs major attention before we do that
14:00 < alefury> of the small subset i saw when i tried hints mode recently some were outdated, most were fine
14:00 < alefury> mostly stuff related to skills was not so good
14:00 <+SamB_XP> yeah
14:01 < alefury> what about kilobyte's level thing?
14:01 <+SamB_XP> I also discovered that the auto-capitalization stuff screwed things up in hints that changed colors
14:01 <+|amethyst> that's not so bad... it's only NO_CURSOR, INVALID_COORD, opc_*, TUKIMA_WEAPON, and ABYSS_CENTRE that need fixed
14:01 < alefury> yeah, hint colors are broken. i forgot to mention that.
14:01 <+SamB_XP> (Though that's fixed now...)
14:01 <+SamB_XP> or should be
14:02 < alefury> can someone look at this? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4084
14:02 < alefury> its pretty minor, and some people cant seem to reproduce it
14:02 < alefury> but it can be quite annoying
14:03 < alefury> might be related to tiles/console, os, options, or anything really :(
14:04  * SamB_XP wonders just how similar these two constriction functions are
14:05 <+|amethyst> which two?
14:05 <+|amethyst> there are three currently
14:05 <+|amethyst> originally four
14:06 <+SamB_XP> the two that are giving me identicalish warnings
14:06 <+|amethyst> in main.cc and mon-act.cc?
14:06 <+SamB_XP> yeah
14:06 <+|amethyst> very similar
14:07 <+|amethyst> I'm planning on merging them
14:07 <+|amethyst> and fixing the warnings
14:08 <+elliptic> alefury: hm, weird... I've definitely noticed this behavior before, but I'm having trouble reproducing it also
14:08  * SamB_XP curses ediff for not working properly on >=16-color, dark-background terminals
14:18 <+elliptic> alefury: okay, I figured out when the bug happens and when it doesn't
14:19 <+elliptic> it seems that things work correctly when you are traveling to the level on the other side on the stairs in question
14:19 <+elliptic> but not if you are traveling somewhere farther away
14:20 <+elliptic> so in the savefile you posted, the bug happens when you try to travel to your waypoint, but not when you just try to travel to lair
14:21 <+edlothiol> kilobyte: db generation crashes for me now
14:21 <+edlothiol> http://pastebin.com/8eTMndPi
14:22 <+elliptic> alefury: oh, I take that back
14:22 <+elliptic> it also doesn't work right if you try to travel to a specific square on the next level
14:23 <+elliptic> basically the only situation that seems to work is when traveling to the next level, and not to a specific square on it
14:23 <+elliptic> I'm guessing the issues with reproducing it were just because xuaxua's instructions on how to reproduce it are unclear
14:23 <+edlothiol> doesn't always seem to be the same assert or at the same place: http://pastebin.com/CkAnLWP0
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14:40 <+|amethyst> elliptic:  I tried your save for #5103 (Summons sometimes sit and let monsters attack them without fighting back.) and taking a move also seems to make them attack
14:41 <+|amethyst> elliptic:  even though the ugly thing has foe=MHITYOU (and target = your position)
14:42 <+|amethyst> elliptic:  (ta and tw change the foe and target, so it's unsurprising that that works)
14:43 <+elliptic> |amethyst: I've never really looked into how the monster AI works
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14:45 <+|amethyst> hmm... for some reason the source on the behaviour event is MHITNOT
14:46 <+|amethyst> I mean the ME_HURT when the bee stings the ugly thing
14:55 <+|amethyst> so there's no ME_WHACK, just an ME_HURT, and ME_HURT doesn't pass a source (though it could)
14:58 <+|amethyst> and the only sources of ME_WHACK with src != MHITYOU are:  napalm, ignite poison, and mimics pushing friendly-to-you creatures away
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15:24 <+MarvinPA> hm, is there a way to clear player constrictions without also clearing the monster from constricting you?
15:24 <+MarvinPA> since you probably shouldn't be able to continue constricting things when paralysed or asleep
15:26 < phyphor> is constriction holding or damage?
15:26 <+|amethyst> hm... asleep no, but if you're paralyzed with your tentacles around a monster, it might make sense to keep the constriction going
15:26 < phyphor> just because you're paralysed doesn't mean yore not still around something
15:26 <+|amethyst> damage only happens when the player reacts
15:26 < Zannick> it stops being constricting and starts being cuddling? :P
15:27 < phyphor> heh
15:27 < phyphor> confused constriction = hugging
15:27 < Zannick> The bear hugs you!
15:27 <+MarvinPA> i guess constriction could just not do damage when you can't move, instead of actually clearing the constrictions
15:28 <+|amethyst> it makes sense to lose constriction when you fall asleep, since your muscles would relax
15:30 < phyphor> do you need to special case curare poisoning?
15:31 < phyphor> (sorry, that's a bit nethacky)
15:31 <+|amethyst> don't know about that, but that does remind me that maybe constriction should do less (no?) damage to asphyx-resistant monsters
15:32 <+|amethyst> (and players)
15:38 < ghallberg> Nah, you cna stil lbe crushed.
15:38 < ghallberg> Or well, less could be reasonable.
15:38 < ghallberg> But it can still break bones or whatever.
15:39 < Ragdoll> paralysed constrictors you just drag along, using them as shields
15:43 < ghallberg> :D
15:44 < ghallberg> bad_ideas?
15:45 < Zannick> henzell should have a "show me a random bad_idea" command
15:45 < Ragdoll> or as fashion objects! 
15:46 < ghallberg> make randart fashion objects drop from monsters.
15:46 < ghallberg> "orcish tophat"
15:46 < ghallberg> "it's very stylish"
15:46 < ghallberg> gnoll monocle
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16:17 < Eronarn> ghallberg: i actually coded orcish tophats already
16:18 < Eronarn> wrt constriction, it seems to make sense to me to have these functions: 'end_your_constriction' and 'end_their_constriction'
16:19 < Eronarn> then they can be called anywhere something moves, teleports, etc.
16:20 < Eronarn> there's a difference between a monster breaking your constriction (just yours, won't necessarily affect other constrictors) and you breaking your constriction on a monster (might apply to many)
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16:57 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r5ac1dfcd60e1 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Merge player/monster noattack constriction code.
16:57 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r381e6db9b36a /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.h: Indentation fixes.
16:57 < CIA-112> blueDave * r5400b4c0fd0b /crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: No constriction when not adjacent
16:57 < CIA-112> blueDave * rd3483fa21744 /crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Really fix constriction & reaching
16:57 < CIA-112> |amethyst * rd3dea1f34745 /crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc mon-act.cc): Merge attack and noattack constriction code.
16:57 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r01e2573da33b /crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Handle monster visibility in constriction messages.
16:57 <+|amethyst> that fixes the crashes and stops damage when the constrictor is no longer adjacent, but doesn't actually end the constriction
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17:08 < Eronarn> blueDave / |amethyst : did constriction formula get fixed to address the bat issue?
17:09 <+|amethyst> Eronarn:  ?
17:09 <+|amethyst> probably not, but I'm not aware of the issue
17:10 < blueDave> what's the bat issue?
17:10 < blueDave> high success rate?
17:11 < Eronarn> |amethyst: the current formula is apparently something like 3d(str*size) vs. 3*EV*size
17:11 < Eronarn> it should be a normal hit check, and then a grapple check which doesn't take EV into account at all
17:13 <+|amethyst> hm
17:14 < Eronarn> octos should have their tentacle aux become a 'start a constriction' aux (no damage unless it both hits and also constricts); monsters should generally do something similar though it might make sense for some to do damage even if they don't constrict
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17:16 <+|amethyst> I'm not sure about octopodes doing no damage unless they constrict
17:16 <+|amethyst> that would really hurt octopode melee against big things
17:16 <+|amethyst> and is inconsistent with non-constrictors with tentacle slaps
17:17 < Eronarn> |amethyst: it might help if i go over the history with it -
17:18 < Eronarn> octos originally got a tentacle aux with horns level damage and had punches/kicks/etc. replaced with that
17:18 < Eronarn> this was obviously silly damage; instead, their 'punches' became like a claws damage boost (but the tentacle aux retained high damage)
17:18 < Eronarn> so they have two different types of 'tentacle' attack already
17:19 < Eronarn> right now, both are striking; the intent was always to do something different when they became able to constrict
17:19 < Eronarn> (likewise, beak was only added to give them a bit of a boost until constrict came along)
17:19 <+|amethyst> which one is the constricting aux?
17:20 <+|amethyst> the "punch" or the "kick"?
17:20 < blueDave> a new one was added
17:20 <+|amethyst> ah
17:20 < Eronarn> basically they get a 'kick' that does a lot more damage, which is weird because they're using the same tentacles to do it
17:21 < Eronarn> ideally what should happen is something like track the number of free arms, and the strength of tentacle attacks / constriction depends on that
17:21 < Eronarn> and drop some of the weird special case stuff octos get
17:21 < blueDave> such as?
17:22 < Eronarn> a simple rule: 4 'walking' legs, you need 2 to use a shield, 2 to use a 1H weapon (or 1.5H - iirc using a 1.5H 2handed is the same for offhand punches as using a 1 hander, right?), 4 to use a 2H weapon 
17:22 < Eronarn> so only octos wielding nothing have a full 8 arms available
17:24 < Eronarn> 'The less equipment you hold in your hands, the better you are at constricting.' or something
17:24 < Eronarn> ...tentacles
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17:24 < blueDave> is your concern mostly about how many constrictions they can get going at a time, too high odds of success, or too much damage?
17:25 < blueDave> or all of the above?
17:25 < Eronarn> blueDave: it's not necessarily that the odds of success are too high, but that they're different
17:26 < Eronarn> melee and ranged attacks both use a similar paradigm to figure out the odds of hitting
17:26 < Eronarn> constriction does something totally different - for example, +Acc items won't help you constrict, and -Acc items won't hurt
17:26 < Eronarn> this means that you will run into situations where you can easily hit something, but can't constrict it at all, or vice versa
17:27 < Eronarn> bats are just the most obvious case of this
17:27 < blueDave> from the wiki, I got the impression that making it radically different was part of the objective
17:27 < Eronarn> blueDave: once constriction starts, it should keep hitting as per the formula
17:28 < Eronarn> it's just that it shouldn't use that formula to determine whether you've hit and can start constricting
17:28 < Gretell> Elynae (L19 NaAK) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 436 failed. (Vault:7)
17:29 < Eronarn> here's an example:
17:30 < Eronarn> iron imp - low EV, small size. easy to hit, easy to constrict. iron troll - low EV, big size. easy to hit, NOT easy to constrict. bat - high EV, small size. hard to hit, easy to constrict. quicksilver dragon - high EV, large size. hard to hit, hard to constrict
17:31 < Eronarn> another one would be comparing, say, an AC dwarf to an EV halfling. the latter is better at getting out of constriction
17:31 < Eronarn> not just at not being constricted in the first place
17:32 < Eronarn> AC should make you much easier to constrict (because the attack only needs to hit, and not deal damage) but it also means you have a longer period before constrict starts dealing crazy autohit damage due to your AC
17:32 < Eronarn> get what i'm saying with the above?
17:33 < blueDave> kinda
17:33 <+evilmike> you mean low EV, not AC, I assume
17:33 <+evilmike> because obviously more AC should never weaken your defenses
17:33 <+|amethyst> escaping doesn't currently use EV at all
17:33 < blueDave> AC lowers constriction damage but has no effect on the hit calc
17:33 < Eronarn> evilmike: er yes. an armor wearing character with low EV and high AC - there are other ways to get AC of course
17:34 <+evilmike> |amethyst: escaping constriction is weird currently...
17:34 <+evilmike> if you look at it, your first attempt seems guaranteed to fail unless you're in dragon form. It also doesn't use str
17:35 < Eronarn> h/o, lemme look at the formulas
17:35 < blueDave> I wrote myself a note a couple days ago to run some calcs of hit, damage, escape for various combos
17:35 <+evilmike> good idea
17:35 < blueDave> any suggestions on which monsters and player builds to use as models?
17:35 < blueDave> or alternatively, what ranges of STR, EV, AC, HD to use?
17:36 <+evilmike> ball pythons wont be too useful (they die fast) but tentacled monstrosity, naga warrior, maybe normal nagas, and particularly anacondas would be good
17:36 < Eronarn> okay yeah these formulas need work :|
17:37 <+evilmike> as for players I'd look at a lowish str (9 or 10) EV focused build, and a high str AC focused build. If you want some examples, you can base the stats off character dumps
17:37 < Eronarn> there are these formulas: start constriction, damage, escape constriction
17:38 < Eronarn> start should be a hit check (acc stuff vs. ev stuff), and then size/str/constriction 'goodness' factors compared for both. right now it's one check that's str/size vs. ev/size
17:38 < CIA-112> |amethyst * rdfd243916630 /crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Stop constricting when not adjacent.
17:38 <+|amethyst> that commit isn't completely right, btw
17:38 < Eronarn> damage should be based on str/size factors, but just uses str
17:38 <+|amethyst> the constriction should stop as soon as the actors become non-adjacent
17:39 <+|amethyst> but that's a fair bit more work
17:39 < Eronarn> escape should be based on str/size too, but just uses size for one member, and just uses strength for another member
17:39 < Eronarn> being stronger and being bigger both help you to grapple someone
17:39 < Eronarn> and they both help you to escape from grapples
17:40 < Eronarn> being small or weak should be a disadvantage at every stage of constriction except for initially landing a hit on you
17:41 < blueDave> except we already have trouble with escape being too hard
17:41 <+evilmike> as I understand, the current formulas aren't supposed to be permanent
17:41 <+evilmike> the wiki page for constriction refers to them as being simple on purpose
17:41 < blueDave> yes, it's just a first stab to get it "working
17:41 < Eronarn> blueDave: well, right now attempts is bugged as per evilmike :P
17:41 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: I already had a commit limitting octopodes to 4 simultaneous constricts but dropped it
17:42 <+kilobyte> would it be a good idea?
17:42 < Eronarn> but, there's something to think of - why should a spriggan really have any chance to slip out of a tentacled monstrosity's grasp?
17:42 <+evilmike> gameplay
17:42 < blueDave> I was going to say 6 minus tentacles in use
17:42 < Eronarn> evilmike: that would hold if constriction prevented you from doing stuff, but it mostly doesn't
17:43 < blueDave> the damage will build to dangerous levels very quickly
17:43 <+evilmike> well, in my opinion escape NEEDS to be feasable, even for puny spriggans... if you bumble into a tentacled monstrosity and cannot escape due to your size or whatever, and can't kill it, it's practically an instadeath
17:44 <+evilmike> it's alright for it to be difficult, but they still should have a chance
17:44 < blueDave> can they be paralyzed or confused?
17:44 < Eronarn> evilmike: things that should break constricting... conf, para, fear, etc. your attacker; a chance when you damage your attacker in melee
17:45 <+evilmike> @??tentacled monstrosity
17:45 < Gretell> tentacled monstrosity (X) | Speed: 9 | HD: 25 | Health: 111-164 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 22, 17, 13 | Flags: demonic, amphibious, see invisible | Res: magic(166), fire, cold, elec, poison, drown, rot, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 2126.
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17:45 <+evilmike> that MR is high enough that most of those effects wont be reliable unless you have high hexes skill
17:45 <+evilmike> or very high evocations, for a wand (but even then it probably will fail)
17:47 <+|amethyst> is there a function to turn an mindex (including MHITYOU) into an actor?
17:47 < Eronarn> it's okay to have dangerous monsters, though
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17:47 < Eronarn> the subset of characters that will encounter a monstrosity and be unable to get out before they die is going to be very small
17:47 <+evilmike> yeah dangerous is fine... and arguably this is no worse than a red wasp's paralysis
17:47 <+evilmike> (which I have no issue with)_
17:47 <+evilmike> I just think you should be able to struggle free, that's all.
17:48 < blueDave> amethyst: other than the method I'm using, which is to pull the reference from the array?
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17:48 < Eronarn> evilmike: a flat, low chance might help? enough that, compounded, you can break free from almost anything before you die but only if you totally dedicate to that (and you'll end up pretty battered)
17:48 < wtface> you know, escaping constriction might be a good use for scroll of imolation
17:48 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  right, but that means you need a conditional for MHITYOU
17:48 < wtface> who wants to constrict something thats on fire
17:49 <+|amethyst> and that code is duplicated all over the place
17:49 <+evilmike> Eronarn: that could work. I also suggested on the wiki that the escape formula could use x_chance_in_y
17:49 < alefury> wtface: ninjas cant catch you if youre on fire
17:49 <+evilmike> that would mean there's always a chance at escape, although it could be an extremely low chance for low str spriggans
17:49 < alefury> http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/picture/nocheesetonight/sketchfire2.gif
17:49 <+evilmike> might be hard to come up with something workable though
17:50 < Eronarn> evilmike: i like x_chance_in_y. maybe something like... size^2+str^2 for both
17:50 <+evilmike> well, y can't use str because monsters don't have str
17:50 <+evilmike> but you can use hd there
17:50 < Eronarn> evilmike: i think we should just open the monster str can of worms. we already have MF_FIGHTER and friends
17:50 < Eronarn> HD is a reasonable proxy bu fails in some cases
17:51 <+|amethyst> 0 is a valid mindex, right?
17:51 <+evilmike> I dunno about that. I think HD is alright... there aren't too many constrictors, so adding a whole new stat seems excessive to me
17:51 <@due> someone ponged me
17:51 <+evilmike> I think I said "due" by mistake, but I meant because. Sorry
17:51 <@due> I apparently might have a life again!
17:52 <@due> evilmike: that's okay, I forgot to sign out before I went out so my awaylog didn't pick it up and I'm... too lazy to scroll up :)
17:52 < Eronarn> evilmike: just a flag or something, i think - maybe even just one new one (assume they're 'strong' if they have MF_FIGHTER, and 'weak' if they have MF_NERD)
17:52 < Zannick> alefury: original source: drmcninja
17:52 < blueDave> yes, 0 is valid mindex, that's why all the checks vs the "not a monster" thing
17:52 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  is_constricting is wrong then
17:52 <@due> mindex :(
17:52 <+|amethyst> if (constricting[i] != 0)
17:52 < Eronarn> lemme look at the constricting monsters...
17:52 < alefury> Zannick: i know, and i expect people to know
17:52 < Eronarn> okay, dragon vs. kraken is a good one
17:53 < Eronarn> krakens should be much, much stronger than dragons
17:53 < blueDave> something wrong with mindex?
17:53 <+evilmike> krakens don't have constriction at the moment
17:53 < HangedMan> krakens lost
17:53 < HangedMan> that, yeah
17:53 < Eronarn> ah
17:53 <+evilmike> their description specifically says they're too large to constrict, and the monster design doesn't work well with it at the moment anyway
17:54 < Eronarn> actually, here's one obvious case where it will matter: naga vs. troll
17:54 < Eronarn> nagas are the same size as trolls, and that's where some of their 'bonus' to constricting will come from
17:54 < Eronarn> but they're much weaker
17:55 < Eronarn> @??troll
17:55 < Gretell> troll (T) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 20, 15, 15 | Flags: regen | Res: magic(28) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 304.
17:55 < Eronarn> @??naga
17:55 < Gretell> naga (N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 5 | Health: 16-39 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 17 | Flags: see invisible, !sil | Res: magic(40), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 108 | Sp: poison splash (d10).
17:55 < Eronarn> if you just did HD, they might not show up as that different from each other
17:55 < Eronarn> and consider also:
17:55 < Eronarn> @??ogre
17:55 < Gretell> ogre (O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-38 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 119.
17:57 < blueDave> does gretell need size now that it's significant for tactics?
17:58 <+evilmike> this isn't the first thing in crawl that uses size. I suppose gretell could show how big a monster is, doesn't seem too necessary to me though
17:58 <+evilmike> I mean, monster int is also relevant to somethings, but gretell doesn't show that
17:58 <+evilmike> some things*
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17:59 < Eronarn> maybe @?2 or something
17:59 < Eronarn> for extended info
17:59 <+evilmike> that could be handy
18:00 < Wensley> new bot commands?
18:00 < Eronarn> that'd be a good place for situational stuff... int, size, species/genus? what else
18:01 <+evilmike> equipment
18:01 < Wensley> "what can this thing polymorph into"
18:01 <+|amethyst> number of chunks
18:01 <+|amethyst> (or corpse mass)
18:02 < Eronarn> those are good
18:02 <+|amethyst> Wensley:  not sure how you'd compute that without duplicating code
18:02 < Wensley> oh, level spawn range
18:02 <+evilmike> could give depth info too, although that info is fairly meaningless unless you find a good way to parse it
18:03 <+evilmike> I guess you could start by listing which branches it's native to, and then saying which level they are most comon on
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18:05 < nooodl> evilmike, you there?
18:05 <+evilmike> yeah
18:05 < nooodl> http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/e14c414e98cbec9f35198335e6cb1f5e21d0e87c <-- i should put some corridors in this, indeed
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18:06 < Wensley> evilmike: do you know if there exists a whole-level vault with every monster in the game available for inspection, for debug purposes
18:06 < Wensley> like a crawl zoo
18:06 <+evilmike> Wensley: I dont think so
18:06 <+evilmike> maybe in test.des
18:06 < nooodl> noticed you tweaked it a bit already, but, i saw someone die pretty unfairly going down and getting ambushed
18:06 < blueDave> amethyst: are you making constriction changes?  don't want to be hitting the same bug :)
18:07 <+evilmike> nooodl: what I did was mostly to reduce monster density a bit, and make the central area less sparse
18:07 <+evilmike> the vault does lack corridors, but you can dig your own
18:07 < nooodl> hmm, right
18:07 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  I'm almost done I think... trying to get constriction to stop earlier when the actors are non-adjacent
18:07 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  I'm not doing anything with formulas
18:08 < blueDave> I was thinking about doing the adjacency thing in noattack, or at the beginning of "turn" for each actor
18:08 <+evilmike> nooodl: I dont think getting ambushed is a huge worry. You always get a turn to go back up the stairs, and if you want to play it safe you can take the 2nd stair and the revisit the level with the 3rd
18:08 <+evilmike> so, the person who died to it probably didn't die unfairly (although I haven't seen it)
18:08 < blueDave> the other obvious thing would be to handle it on every movement, but it wasn't clear where they all are
18:08 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  i already made a commit to do it in noattack
18:09 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  what I'm trying now is to do it also in is_constricted and is_constricting
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18:10 <+|amethyst> hm... and that is still not quite early enough
18:11 < blueDave> early enough compared to what?
18:12 <+evilmike> nooodl: Just watched it. that's a nasty death. However it was also a level 15 spriggan on d:27 :P
18:12 <+evilmike> don't worry, your vault isn't to blame here
18:13 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  you still are prevented from moving the first time you try, and you might get the "releases its hold" message if the monster moves
18:14 <+|amethyst> and the status light doesn't go away until you spend a turn
18:14 < Eronarn> btw, a constriction thing: moving from one square to another still-adjacent square shouldn't end constriction imo
18:15 < blueDave> agree, was thinking on how to make that possible
18:15 < Eronarn> i don't know how you are storing constriction data, but naively: if they take a step, for each constrictee, if not adjacent, end constriction
18:16 < Eronarn> step, specifically - check it in the movement code
18:16 < Eronarn> if you checked it per-turn weird things would happen, also fast movement, etc.
18:17 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  I think your idea about checking adjacency at the beginning of each "turn" is best
18:17 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  I'll leave that to you, though
18:17 <+|amethyst> so have at it :)
18:18 <+|amethyst> I have one commit real quick for the mindex_to_actor thing
18:19 < blueDave> right now it clears player constrictions on upstairs, downstairs, and _player_move unconditionally
18:19 < blueDave> just need to make _player_move only do it if new location is not adjacent
18:20 <+|amethyst> if you check at the beginning of a turn, you don't need to do that even
18:20 <+|amethyst> and you should check then because of other methods of moving
18:20 < blueDave> hmm, except would that make the "you release the foo" message come out at the wrong time?
18:20 <+|amethyst> hmm
18:22 < Eronarn> |amethyst: checking at the beginning of a turn may introduce all kinds of weirdness... what if something is constricting something, gets knocked back on something else's turn, and then the thing moves forward to attack?
18:22 < Eronarn> it's still adjacent at the start of the turn
18:22 < Eronarn> it's better to just abort constriction any time there's movement, except for a few specific places where movement is okay
18:24 <+|amethyst> in moveto() maybe?
18:24 <+|amethyst> or move_player_to_grid()/move_to_pos() ?
18:27 < Eronarn> move_to_pos currently doesn't track source of the movement, right?
18:27 < Eronarn> that seems like a very healthy thing to add
18:27 < Eronarn> like: MOVE_WALK, MOVE_TELE
18:28 < Eronarn> checking for validity should happen wherever is calling it but reactions to things moving might be better off in a central place
18:28 < Eronarn> like the whole mess with clinging
18:30 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  there, I'm done with the constriction code for now.  CIA should show two commits momentarily
18:30 < CIA-112> |amethyst * rb0276ee3da70 /crawl-ref/source/ (actor.cc actor.h mon-act.cc): Add a function to convert an mindex to an actor *.
18:30 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r2e6d101dc1b9 /crawl-ref/source/actor.cc: Correct actor::is_constricting().
18:32 <+|amethyst> I think clear_all_constrictions and clear_specific_constrictions should be cleaned up/split as Eronarn suggested earlier
18:32 <+|amethyst> e.g. stop_constricting(midx), stop_being_constricted(), ...
18:33 <+|amethyst> it's also weird that clear_all_constrictions is in both player and monster but not in actor
18:37 <+|amethyst> also, the implementations of is_constricted(), is_constricted_larger(), accum_been_constricted(), and others should be moved to class actor
18:38 <+|amethyst> most of those are identical in the two subclasses, and is_constricted_larger() should be identical
18:46 < CIA-112> kilobyte * refb6b1fd7b0c /crawl-ref/source/ (contrib/sqlite database.cc): Undo mutilation of thread-safety of contrib sqlite.
18:46 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: using midx needs to go, too... unless we're going through every single monster and clearing constrictions whenever someone dies/is dismissed
18:46 <+kilobyte> if a monster dies and another is created the same turn, you'll have constriction pointing to the new one
18:47 < blueDave> I see all these comments about midx
18:47 <+kilobyte> same with shafts, etc
18:47 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  what would one use instead?
18:47 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  surely not an actor* ?
18:47 <+|amethyst> since that has the same problem
18:48 < blueDave> the reason I used midx was for save/restore, actor* would not be correct after a restore
18:48 <+kilobyte> mid, it's designed to be unique over monster deaths/etc
18:48 <+kilobyte> also, by not using midx, you don't have to special case monster/player anymore
18:49 < blueDave> how do you turn a mid into an actor* ?
18:49 <+kilobyte> actor_by_mid()
18:51 ۰۰-- petete [~quassel@190.190.173.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:52 <+|amethyst> neat
18:52 <+|amethyst> that would make the constriction data even larger, but I guess that's not a huge deal
18:53 <+|amethyst> should foe use mid as well, then?
18:53 <+kilobyte> yeah, just never got around to changing that
18:54 < blueDave> and the special case stuff doesn't go away, since player and monster are asymetric for constriction
18:55 <+kilobyte> a vast majority of constrictions code appears to be symmetric, and I don't think introducing new asymmetry is good
18:55 < blueDave> plus there's an edge case for save compat if we change it, is it safe to go there?
18:55 <+|amethyst> you'll need a new minor tag, and to convert when restoring old saves
18:56 <+|amethyst> is there an MID for 'nobody'?
18:56 <+|amethyst> I see only MID_PLAYER and MID_ANON_FRIEND
18:57 < blueDave> I see a function invalid_monster_index
18:57 <+kilobyte> 0
18:59 <+kilobyte> for "invalid", invalid_monster_index only checks for out of bound values
19:00 <+kilobyte> there's no reason to check for that and not for dead monsters
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19:04 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  btw, have you done anything about the duplicated symbols?
19:04 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  if not, I can
19:04  * due eats kilobyte.
19:07 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: didn't fix them yet, yeah.  Would be nice.
19:10 <+SamB_XP> several seem like they should be enums
19:11 <+|amethyst> SamB_XP:  which?
19:12 <+SamB_XP> well, the opacity stuff
19:12 ۰۰-- res [~ginkgo@adsl-108-72-200-234.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:13 <+|amethyst> there are enums, too
19:13 < alefury> regarding constriction: fix out of los constriction messages?
19:13 < alefury> unless that was already don
19:13 <+|amethyst> alefury:  I've fixed some of those
19:13 <+|amethyst> maybe all?
19:14 <+SamB_XP> |amethyst: oh, I see
19:15 <+SamB_XP> those aren't what I thought they were
19:15 <+|amethyst> SamB_XP:  it seems a bit convoluted, I agree...
19:15 <+|amethyst> trying to figure out exactly what LOS_SOLID means is a little tricky :)
19:16 <+SamB_XP> why we don't just use function pointers here is totally beyond me
19:17 <+SamB_XP> also, I'm not sure why it's a good idea to make these "static"
19:17 <+|amethyst> I'm making them non-static
19:18 <+|amethyst> I'm also making them const
19:18 <+|amethyst> since all the methods are const
19:18 <+|amethyst> ('them' = the instances opc_*)
19:19 <+SamB_XP> oh, I see: the monmove one is actually a closure...
19:21 <+|amethyst> wonder when it will be safe to use C++11 features
19:21 <+|amethyst> before 2020 I hope
19:21 ۰۰-- blueDave [~dshack@c-71-228-151-89.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has quit []
19:22 <+SamB_XP> probably will depend on which ones
19:22 <+SamB_XP> one hopes MS will be better about this than about C99...
19:23 < alefury> what? ms is defiling c?
19:24 <+SamB_XP> no, they just decided not to do C99
19:24 < alefury> thats pretty lame
19:24 <+SamB_XP> (not even the easy parts like stdint!)
19:25 < alefury> its a standard for a reason -.-
19:26 <+SamB_XP> iirc they started but then aborted later on?
19:26 <+|amethyst> it seems as though they consider C obsolete, so don't care about keeping up
19:26 <+SamB_XP> anyway, the idea seemed to be "everyone is using C++ now anyway, so why bother?"
19:26 <+|amethyst> yeah, that
19:26 < alefury> fuckers -.-
19:26 <+SamB_XP> I get the impression management may have meddled
19:28 <+kilobyte> alefury: right, _standard_.  That's the main beef MS has against it.
19:29 <+SamB_XP> and I suppose that (WRT such easy stuff) most of the bother involved was probably because of red tape, not actual implementation/testing work...
19:29 <+kilobyte> remember MSOOXML?  Or their efforts to go out of the way to be not compatible with POSIX?  Or the FUD with XXX_s() "secure" functions?
19:30 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: well, yeah, the XXX_s stuff is just crazy
19:30 <+|amethyst> I don't think that's it in this case
19:30 <+SamB_XP> well, much of it
19:30 <+kilobyte> it makes sense only for gets_s() -- but no one sane uses gets()
19:30 <+|amethyst> Microsoft's usual approach would be to implement C99 and add their own extensions
19:31 ۰۰-- blabber [~tobi@datenschleuder.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:31 <+SamB_XP> anyway, if you really wanted safety, you would probably use MS's *other* safe string library
19:31 <+|amethyst> so that it's easy to migrate code *to* a Microsoft platform, but not away
19:31 <+SamB_XP> kilobyte: there *might* be a few others that don't make no sense
19:31 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: no, implementing C99 would mean you can use it to write portable code
19:33 <+kilobyte> let's see, did any of us have to write a whole file of compat headers just to use threads recently?
19:34  * SamB_XP thought that there were already several such libraries available
19:35  * SamB_XP also suspects that this is partly because Win32 has no intention of being POSIXy
19:35 <+|amethyst> they support Posix (though not for long)... just not much of the optional stuff
19:36 <+SamB_XP> |amethyst: that's not Win32, though
19:36 <+SamB_XP> and why do you say "not for long"?
19:36 <+|amethyst> true
19:36  * SamB_XP suspects people have been saying this for decades
19:37 <+|amethyst> http://brianreiter.org/2011/09/15/sua-deprecated-in-windows-8/
19:37 <+|amethyst> apparently they have said SUA will be removed in Windows 9
19:38 <+|amethyst> and, yeah, I was confusing Win32 with NT
19:39 < alefury> should constriction work on unbreathing?
19:39 < alefury> is it crush bones quality, or just choke?
19:39 ۰۰-- HangedMan|Away is now known as HangedMan
19:39 < Eronarn> definitely crushing
19:40 < Eronarn> it shouldn't work on squishy things either
19:40 < alefury> what about plants?
19:40 < Eronarn> sure, why not :D
19:40 ۰۰-- Pingas_ [~Pingas@40.181.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:41 <+|amethyst> apparently some have argued that constrictor snakes kill by increasing body cavity pressure, rather than simple asphyxiation... it's not proved, though
19:41 <+|amethyst> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constriction
19:41 <+|amethyst> a ball python probably shouldn't be breaking bones, though
19:41 <+kilobyte> crushing squishy stuff is just as harmful, crushing amorphous stuff I guess no
19:41 <+kilobyte> (jellies)
19:43 < alefury> theres also a silly player/monster assymetry regarding size
19:44 < alefury> (player nagas cant constrict monster nagas)
19:45 < alefury> also they cant constrict centaurs and other large beings
19:45 < alefury> but i suppose thats okay
19:46 < alefury> also the ability to constrict should probably be mentioned on the A screen
19:47 < alefury> constrict 1/constrict 2 for nagas/octopodes on % would also be nice
19:47 < alefury> or something equivalent
19:48 <+|amethyst> hm, what's preventing player nagas from constricting monster nagas?
19:48 < alefury> player nagas are smaller
19:48 <+|amethyst> ohh
19:48 < alefury> because large player species cant wear armor (ogre, troll)
19:50 <+kilobyte> if player nagas are different from monster ones, that's a bug
19:50 <+|amethyst> well
19:50 <+|amethyst> probably constriction should use PSIZE_BODY
19:50 < Wensley> yeah, it seems like needless complexity
19:50 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: good idea
19:51 < alefury> note that letting nagas constrict large enemies is a significant buff
19:51 < alefury> constriction in general is
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19:54 < alefury> i suppose removing their poison spit would be bad, monster nagas use it a lot
19:54 < alefury> their ac could be nerfed...
19:54 < alefury> but defensively, nagas already suck a big
19:54 < alefury> *bit
19:54 < alefury> *a lot
19:54 <+|amethyst> I could see arguments for not giving nagas constriction at all
19:55 <+|amethyst> most constrictors are nonvenomous
19:55 < alefury> i think it would be nice on monster nagas
19:55 < alefury> keeping poison spit is more important though, slow melee threats are fairly boring
19:56 <+|amethyst> greater nagas are scary now
19:56 < alefury> they always were :P
19:56 <+|amethyst> true
19:56 < alefury> @??greater naga
19:56 < Gretell> greater naga (N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 15 | Health: 61-102 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 27 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(immune), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 1678 | Sp: b.venom (3d19), mystic blast (3d19), haste, poison arrow (3d22), teleport other, teleport self.
19:57 <+|amethyst> well, naga mages in general I guess
19:57 < alefury> i always found their melee abilities most scary
19:58 < alefury> 6 AC is a lot for an equipped monster
19:58 < alefury> @??orc warlord
19:58 < Gretell> orc warlord (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 85-141 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 32 | Res: magic(60) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2248.
19:58 <+|amethyst> I believe both their teleport other and teleport self will carry both of you
19:58 <+|amethyst> if they're constricting you
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19:59 <+|amethyst> I guess that depends on size
19:59 < alefury> teleport other shouldnt, i think
19:59 < alefury> or well, actually i have no idea
19:59 < alefury> its rather confusing
19:59 <+kilobyte> http://www.goblinscomic.com/09132011/
19:59 <+|amethyst> I guess teleport other won't work if they're constricting a smaller player?
20:00 < alefury> probably. differentiating hostile and friendly teleports is only an implementable.
20:00 < alefury> not implemented
20:02 <+|amethyst> at least some players are saying that snake is as hard as shoals now... which might be good I guess, but if so swamp needs similarly buffed
20:03 < alefury> ummmmmm. rune lock?
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20:03 < alefury> maybe nerfing snake a bit would be better?
20:04 < alefury> unfortunately i havent had the pleasure yet
20:04 <+|amethyst> maybe only give constriction to the warriors?
20:04 < alefury> but snake:1-4 always felt pretty harmless with rP after lair and orc
20:04 < alefury> the only challenge were the uniques
20:04 <+|amethyst> yeah
20:04 < alefury> it might be okay, and shoals 1-4 is not that hard
20:05 < alefury> swamp has hydras and alligators, which is plenty challenging imo
20:05 < alefury> swamp worms are very tedious, though
20:05 < alefury> i definitely wouldnt miss them
20:05 < HangedMan> they're iconic!
20:05 < alefury> just put more alligators :)
20:06 < HangedMan> they should come in packs but not submerge
20:06 < alefury> then you could just take a step back and kill them at range
20:06 < HangedMan> I like minmay's devwiki suggestions of giving bog mummies bolt of cold, making wisps not blink so they mob a player, and making wisps actually appear more often
20:06 < alefury> if they dont submerge they have to walk on land
20:07 < HangedMan> s/making wisps/making vapours/
20:07 < Wensley> put tons of shafts in swamp, and call them sinkholes
20:07 < HangedMan> hmm
20:07 < alefury> wisps never were a threat, and now theyre not even annoying
20:07 < alefury> Wensley: yes, lets make swamp more annoying!
20:08 < Wensley> alefury: when I'm in swamp, I just want to get to the bottom quickly :) now, even people who want to do swamp slowly will find they cannot do so!
20:08 < Wensley> a net win, champagne for all
20:08 < alefury> the way back up would be annoying, though
20:09 < alefury> also, floor trash!
20:09 < alefury> i need to have it!
20:09 < Wensley> just need to implement kilobyte's idea of making the dungeon cyclic and put a portal to the dungeon at the end of swamp :)
20:10 < Wensley> (because it's not like the way back up isn't *already* annoying)
20:10 < alefury> at least you dont randomly get dropped to a lower level, and you know where the staircase are
20:10 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  hm.. so my extern fixes leave me with two copies of most of those objects
20:10 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  I'm not sure why
20:11 <+kilobyte> I love the hellish Lair ending, makes moving the stash faster
20:11 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  it's only showing up in one of the .os
20:12 < alefury> regarding lair, why is the catlobe ending a solo one? too much exp?
20:12 < bmh> kilobyte: what's your favorite noise-based dungeon generator?
20:12 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: do they come from a source other than externs.h?
20:12 <+kilobyte> bmh: no idea, it's mostly about what do you do with the noise
20:13 < Wensley> alefury: have to ask evilmike
20:13 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  some (NO_CURSOR, INVALID_COORD) are declared in externs.h, others elsewhere
20:13 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  oh
20:15 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  got it... I hadn't cleaned rltiles/*.o
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20:28 < CIA-112> |amethyst * rc0bbaee3e937 /crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Eliminate duplicated symbols.
20:29 <+|amethyst> btw, is there any reason for INVALID_CURSOR and NO_CURSOR to be different objects?
20:30 <+|amethyst> err, INVALID_COORD and NO_CURSOR, that is
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20:35 <+evilmike> was someone asking me something? sorry, my irc client locked up
20:35 <+evilmike> and I dont have logging enabled for some reason
20:37 < HangedMan> I think the question was "why isn't catoblepas caverns not a small lair vault"
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20:38 <+evilmike> it's about the size of other large ones
20:39 < HangedMan> s/small/"not solo"
20:39 <+evilmike> could you just put your channel log on pastebin or something
20:39 < HangedMan> [20:13] <alefury> regarding lair, why is the catlobe ending a solo one? too much exp?
20:40 <+evilmike> alefury: the loot is based more on the large endings, and it's close in size to the other large ones, except perhaps wormcave (which is considered small)
20:41 <+evilmike> it would be easy to make it "small" though, just add one line and decrease the loot
20:42 < HangedMan> personally I'd like frog pond to count as solo since it already dominates the lair:8 it spawns on
20:43 <+MarvinPA_> i'm still not convinced having 2 lair end vaults is a good thing in general
20:44 <+evilmike> I dont understand the reason for it
20:45 <+evilmike> other than that some are smaller than others
20:45 < HangedMan> the bear one is a pretty one-note affair
20:45 <+|amethyst> I recently had a game with only the bear one
20:45 <+|amethyst> even though it is small
20:47 <+evilmike> maybe it places one and only tries to place the 2nd one? I havent ever looked at how it works (or paid much attention in-game)
20:47 <+|amethyst> Lair:8: normal: bearwithus, enter_volcano_1
20:47 < Wensley> sometimes it is a nice change of pace to have two minor end vaults
20:47 ۰۰-- dtsund [~opera@s81-236-68-64.trico.az.wi-power.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:47 < HangedMan> frog pond is not very minor
20:47 <+|amethyst> it does  dgn.place_maps { tag = "lair_end_small" }   in a post_place hook
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20:49 <+|amethyst> ah, it only tries once
20:49 <@due> really?
20:49 <@due> I thought Zaba and I hacked secondary endings into it?
20:50 <@due> Anyway, the issue is that we had to compromise all of the Lair ending vaults to be equal in loot/EXP/etc, otherwise people complained.
20:52 < alefury> i like the sometimes double endings
20:52 < alefury> its fun and unique, and feels more like lair imo
20:53 <@due> oh, so it does happen?
20:53 < alefury> of course, yes
20:53 ۰۰-- nooodl [~nooodl@91.177.143.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:53 < alefury> most of the time actually
20:53 < alefury> there arent a lot of solo endings i think
20:53 <+|amethyst> due:  I think your version did ensure both were placed, but Zaba's made it so that it attempts to place the second (but if it doesn't work, continue)
20:53 < alefury> probably fine as is
20:54 <+|amethyst> s/continue/continue with only one lair_end_small vault)
20:54 < alefury> also, can worm cave please be removed? its not a lot of fun
20:54 < HangedMan> I'd argue frog pond's worse then worm cave
20:54 < alefury> total kitefest, except for the rock worms, which are nearly unkillable in the narrow passage
20:54 < alefury> i like frog pond
20:55 < alefury> should probably be a solo vault though
20:55 < alefury> maybe with some more loot and exp
20:56 < HangedMan> the sheer size of frogs and mosquitoes in open space already makes it exhausting, but I do sponsor it becoming solo
20:57 <+kilobyte> it's a boring tedious vault
20:57 <+kilobyte> let's deemphasize it, leaving something more fun on the level as well
20:57 < alefury> huh? go around, go in, done.
20:58 < alefury> killing frogs all the time of course
20:58 < alefury> basically just like swamp:1-4, except better
20:59 <+kilobyte> mosquitoes, spiny frogs
21:00 < HangedMan> at least the mosquitoes don't flee anymore!
21:03 <+|amethyst> so what should happen if you specify -sprint -sprint-map zotvault  ?
21:04 <+|amethyst> should it just fail, or should it give you the map selection prompt as though you didn't specify -sprint-map
21:05 <@due> what's wrong with worm cave?
21:06 < HangedMan> kiting lindwurms doesn't make much sense
21:06 < HangedMan> presumably he dislikes the kiting the spiny worms and getting the rock worms away from rock
21:07 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: having it in the config file ignores the setting if inapropriate
21:10 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  does it?  where should I be looking for that code?
21:12 <+kilobyte> I mean init.txt
21:12 < alefury> HangedMan: exactly. its a lot of walking back and forth.
21:13 < alefury> the ending is nice, just the winding part with spiny worms and rock worms is tedious.
21:21 <+evilmike> I think the complaint is just that the whole thing (except for lindwurms I think) is slower than you, so you can melee kite it
21:21 <+evilmike> although I've never had a problem with the vault. The only one I've found tedious is frog pond and that's because of vampire mosquitos
21:27 < alefury> rock worms are fast, actually, but you have to lure them out anyway because you cant kill them in the vault
21:27 <+evilmike> I've never had to do that
21:28 <+evilmike> there are a couple of open areas within the vault where you can lure them out
21:28 <+evilmike> all you really need to do is find a spot just out of reach of the wall it's in
21:30 < alefury> but they flee :(
21:31 < alefury> if everyone else things the vault is fine it probably is
21:31 < alefury> i guess i just dont like it.
21:38 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r8fa6b782c125 /crawl-ref/source/dat/database/randname.txt: Be more consistent with randart @people_name@.
21:38 < alefury> kilobyte: a few months ago there was a crash in tiles related to secret doors next to walls with custom tiles. iirc you fixed the crash. i encountered the same vault in my current game, and the secret doors just use regular stone wall tiles, making their position obvious. this is an information leak. should i report it?
21:43 <+kilobyte> I guess so, yeah
21:44 < alefury> the vault is enter_trove_3 btw
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21:49 < alefury> reported
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22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * r49f095120dc0 /crawl-ref/debian/changelog: Changelog from 0.9.0-1.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * rc01f2f213465 /crawl-ref/debian/rules: Obey flags set by dpkg-buildflags.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * rcd12945677c2 /crawl-ref/ (.gitignore debian/source/options): Work around breakage of quiltless workflows in dpkg 1.16.1.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * r15f9a0ee8606 /crawl-ref/debian/ (16 files in 2 dirs): Debian's 0.8.0-2 packaging, uupdated to 0.8.1
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * reda54eb3fefe /crawl-ref/debian/changelog: Changelog from 0.9.1-1.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * r61220eeb2755 /crawl-ref/debian/rules: Copy CREDITS.txt, the build will cry if it can't amend it.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * r57ea00d274cd /crawl-ref/debian/NEWS: Remove an useless NEWS entry.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * r0c7ea549e7ab /crawl-ref/debian/rules: Update clua -> dlua.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * rcadbb4e61c0c /crawl-ref/debian/rules: Support cross-compiling.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * r0c506060794e /crawl-ref/debian/rules: Make the {build,binary}-{indep,arch} targets do what they are supposed to do.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * rd72ba3798ed1 /crawl-ref/debian/copyright: Remove the MT19937 license, it's no longer used.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * r7acb7760bffe /crawl-ref/.gitignore: Add ignores for contribs and prebuilt yaccage.
22:20 < CIA-112> kilobyte debian-trunk * r92597bb09439 /crawl-ref/debian/ (changelog rules): Bring back the workaround on gcc-4.4 bug on powerpc.
22:21 < dtsund> Ah, got rid of Mersenne twistor?
22:22 <+kilobyte> long ago, this is a rebase
22:23 < dtsund> Aha.
22:25 < dtsund> Actually, how long ago was it eliminated?  If it was since 0.8, I'll need to merge that in, probably.
22:26 < dtsund> ...which would be annoying, since git's stopped importing stuff cleanly.
22:30 ۰۰-- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789
22:31 < dtsund> Oh, wait, that was a good while ago.
22:32 <+kilobyte> all bmh's fault!
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22:48 < CIA-112> |amethyst * rf018c65f64a0 /crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Handle more fake mutations, and suppression, in '%'.
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23:32 < CIA-112> |amethyst * rb42ecd2e3c6d /crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Allow monster attacks to anger monsters.
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23:37 < HangedMan> has anybody started working on hellspider?
23:41 <+|amethyst> should hunger rotting be able to kill a ghoul who is at 1 HP because of damage, but not rotted?
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23:43 <+elliptic> |amethyst: I've wondered why rotting does damage to HP in addition to MHP if you aren't at full health
23:44 <+elliptic> it can lead to silly stuff like "Ouch! that really hurt!" for rotting from 2 HP to 1 HP
23:44 <+elliptic> I don't see anything particularly wrong with it too though... I'd be curious if anyone has an explanation for why it works like this though
23:46 <+|amethyst> oddly, miasma rot doesn't seem to do damage
23:48 <+|amethyst> likewise AF_ROT (though there is the melee damage of course)
23:50 <+|amethyst> and the zotdef OoZ desecration does them in the opposite order (rots first, then does damage, so rotting 1 point from three max HP would give "That really hurt!"
23:59 <+elliptic> weird
--- Log closed Wed Dec 28 00:00:03 2011