--- Log opened Sat Dec 24 00:00:16 2011
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00:21 < blueDave> better fix to disable constriction during reaching attacks at https://gitorious.org/~bluedave/crawl/bluedave-sandbox branch confix1
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01:03 < Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2919-g073c87c (32)
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01:19 < Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2919-g073c87c
01:28 < Henzell> crate the Fetichist (L19 HaHu) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed on turn 58158. (Snake:3)
01:31 < Henzell> crate the Fetichist (L19 HaHu) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed on turn 58499. (Snake:3)
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06:17 < ortoslon> now that constriction is in trunk, maybe make Gretell display monsters' size?
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08:46 < st_> since when can you fail to extend a transformation by recasting it
08:46 < st_> and how come it seems like sometimes it doesn't take MP
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10:11 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2919-g073c87c (32)
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10:25 < Henzell> DrPraetor the Prestidigitator (L16 OpEE) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed on turn 42265. (Shoals:2)
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12:50 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L16 MuSk) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4033 failed. (Snake:5)
12:53 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L16 MuSk) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4033 failed. (Snake:5)
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13:55 < CIA-112> elliptic * rda62cde8c2ab /crawl-ref/source/evoke.cc: Fix reaching midpoint logic.
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14:14 < G-Flex> ??changelog[3]
14:14 < Henzell> changelog[3/3]: Current trunk: http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl CDO's trunk: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/changes.txt
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16:08 < Eronarn> earlier today i had been wondering about spider form being able to eat veggies
16:08 < Eronarn> apparently, though, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8302535.stm
16:09 < HangedMan> the bigger question is why does it need to have the meat chopped up into chunks instead of eating from the corpse itself
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16:12 < Eronarn> yes, that is a bad thing
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16:40 < Eronarn>  Crazy Yiuf whimpers, "Iron infinity snail!"
16:40 < Eronarn> new monster
16:41 < HangedMan> constantly rises from the dead instantly once you kill it, insane ac, but slow
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16:44 < Eronarn> constriction probably shouldn't end if you take a step but still end up next to the thing
16:47 < Eronarn> also there's right now a ball python constricting me when i'm not next to one
16:48 < HangedMan> constricting a plant?
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16:56 < Eronarn> bug: spider form blocks throwing but doesn't set quiver to 'unavailable'
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17:07 < Eronarn> You turn into a venomous arachnid creature. Your cursed +3,+2 long sword melds into your body. Your +0 elven buckler melds into your body. You constrict the hound skeleton. You destroy the hound skeleton!
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17:09 < Eronarn> i just got a six headed hydra on *d6*
17:09 < Eronarn> this seems completely insane even for a vault :|
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17:10 <+evilmike> I dont know of any vaults that intentionally place a 6 headed hydra. There might be vaults that place OOD monsters that early (which can generate as d:11 monsters), but I'm not sure
17:10 <+evilmike> it's not impossible that you just got unlucky with a regular OOD monster
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17:11 <+elliptic> klotski could do that, I'm sure
17:12 < HangedMan|Away> d:6 skeletal warrior
17:14 <+elliptic> !lg * place=d:6 map=~klotski ckiller=hydra
17:14 < Sequell> 1. Eronarn the Changer (L9 OpTm), worshipper of Ashenzari, slain by a six-headed hydra on D:6 (minmay klotski) on 2011-12-24, with 2564 points after 8280 turns and 0:34:04.
17:14 <+elliptic> eronarn: that particular vault is notoriously evil
17:14 <+evilmike> oh, looks like there are a fair number of early vaults which place a 9 or an 8. 8's are the really dangerous ones
17:15 <+elliptic> I actually didn't see your death was klotski before doing that query :P
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17:16 < Eronarn> i like evil vaults but a d6 hydra is really way too evil, even if it's rare
17:16 <+evilmike> klotski doesn't place any hydras, it just says "put ood monster here"
17:16 <+evilmike> you're pretty likely to get a hydra in it though
17:16 < st_> and it's for nothing other than gold?
17:17 <+evilmike> quite a lot of gold, but it looks like that's all you get
17:17 <+elliptic> for the record, d:8 hydra is barely in depth
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17:18 <+elliptic> so with that in mind, d:6 hydra isn't that ridiculous... you could also get it normally if you spent a while on the level, with some bad luck
17:18 <+evilmike> an '8' on a d:6 vault will spawn a monster that's depth 16, I think
17:18 <+evilmike> that's going by how syntax.txt describes it
17:19 <+elliptic> !lg * map=~klotski place=d:6 s=ckiller
17:19 < Sequell> 25 games for * (map=~klotski place=d:6): 3x a centaur, 2x an ogre, 2x an unseen horror, 2x an orc warrior, an ice beast, a shapeshifter, a giant toad, a troll, a killer bee, a blink frog skeleton, a giant frog, a cyclops skeleton, a hydra, an imp, a big kobold, a trapdoor spider, a griffon, a centaur warrior, a wolf spider, a goliath beetle
17:21 <+evilmike> !lg * map=~klotski place=d:12 s=ckiller
17:21 < Sequell> 5 games for * (map=~klotski place=d:12): 2x a stone giant, a hydra, a hill giant zombie, a flaming corpse
17:21 <+evilmike> 12 is the deepest for it
17:21 <+evilmike> stone giant is not surprising. I guess yaktaur captains would require it to be slightly deeper
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17:22 <+evilmike> I'm surprised there aren't any yaktaur capt kills for that depth
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17:23 < st_> I don't think I've ever seen that vault, which is surprising considering how many deaths it has
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17:25 <+elliptic> it is always only accessible by specific stairs
17:25 <+evilmike> I'd attribute the number of deaths more to the fact that it's enclosed (much more likely to die within the map itself), and the huge number of enemies. not so much the ood stuff
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17:59 < dtsund> Did Stone Soup ever split Haste into Haste Self and Haste Other?
18:01 <+evilmike> there's a split on the monster end (has been for as long as I can remember), the player spell is still just Haste
18:02 < dtsund> I think I'll have to do it on the player end in Light for interface reasons.
18:02 <+evilmike> I'd like haste other because it would mean fewer keystrokes casting haste self... but as a low level spell haste other would be a buff to summoners, and at level 6 I'm skeptical it would have much of a use. I'm guessing this reasoning is why it wasn't split
18:02 <+evilmike> maybe the best way to split it would be to do the delayed fireball thing, and give a discount if you have both spells
18:06 < dtsund> Possibly.  But the alternative for Light would be making the players go through two y/n prompts to cast the spell at themselves if they're already contaminated.
18:08 < dtsund> (I added a y/n prompt if doing something will take you over the danger threshold for magic contamination.)
18:09 <+evilmike> oh yeah, crawl light has all that neat glow stuff. I heard something about a glow bar as an alternative to spell hunger
18:09 < dtsund> Yeah, that was just implemented (and still has a few kinks)
18:12 < dtsund> I'm pretty sure it works out to a Spriggan nerf, since they have a pretty hard time casting Haste safely *at all*.
18:22 <+evilmike> certain races get more glow than others?
18:26 <+elliptic> different hunger rates/carnivorousness levels were translated into different glow tolerances, iirc?
18:28 < alefury> it at least sounds interesting
18:28 < alefury> no idea if replacing the food clock with glow actually makes the game simpler
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19:08 < dtsund> elliptic: Yeah.
19:08 < dtsund> Right now it's just most races can take 10 points, Spriggans can take 7, and Trolls can take 6.
19:08 < dtsund> I plan to make mummies outright immune to glow, though.
19:09 < dtsund> (Hasting yourself costs 6, plus whatever the cost of a level 6 spell is for you.)
19:11 < alefury> spell hunger is actually not that significant for trolls, right?
19:12 < alefury> compared to natural hunger its just peanuts?
19:12 < alefury> anyway, good night
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19:29 <@dpeg> Hi! Anyone in, or everyone celebrating Jesus' birthday?
19:30 < elly> the jesus thing, definitely
19:30 <+evilmike> i'm online, it's still christmas eve out here
19:30 <@dpeg> Have there been reports about Snake with constricting nagas?
19:31 <+evilmike> I think anacondas are too dangerous, that's my main feedback at the moment
19:31 <@dpeg> okay, that's easy enough to tweak
19:32 <+evilmike> I also think the formula for escaping constriction is weird, since it guarantees failure on attempt 1. I (quickly) wrote some stuff on the wiki page, a few other people have put feedback there too
19:32 <@dpeg> cool
19:33 <@dpeg> seems I got my formula wrong, that was not intended
19:33 <+evilmike> I have not actually come up with a formula, except for a vague suggestion that it should be in the form of "x_chance_in_y(x, y)", that way all attempts can at least have a chance
19:35 <@dpeg> I gloriously died to a kraken, btw.
19:35 <+evilmike> one of my issues with constriction right now (mostly just anacondas) is that escape is far too hard
19:35  * Zannick doesn't celebrate the jesus thing
19:35 <+evilmike> you can "escape" constriction and then be constricted immediately again, since the monster is fast
19:35  * Zannick is not actually here, though
19:36 <+evilmike> this needs to be addressed... either make anacondas normal speed (huge nerf) or perhaps stun the monster briefly if you escape. That at least gives you a chance to blink
19:38 <@dpeg> evilmike: yes, or just no constriction attempt for some number of actions after breaking free
19:38 <+evilmike> that's also good
19:38 <@dpeg> there are some comments on the wiki that fiddling with translocations is too mean
19:38 < jle> No constriction from *any* monster for a few actions? 
19:38 <@dpeg> I don't agree with that -- yes, it is a rule change and might not be the most intuitive one, but I think it is the interesting one
19:39 <@dpeg> jle: not sure about that 
19:39 <+evilmike> I agree for the most part with the comments on teleport. It's not so much that it's too mean though, just that I dislike it when your escape options are so severely limited
19:39 <+evilmike> your choices right now seem limited to "attack" or "step away"... consumables don't help much
19:39 <@dpeg> evilmike: teleport is such a standard reaction that I am happy to see cases where it does not work
19:40 <+kilobyte> for kraken, I think it'd be best to stick with the current description and disable constriction for them
19:40 <@dpeg> it will need iterations until it feels right, but monsters offsetting the teleport/blink solution will be good to have
19:40 <+kilobyte> it just changes kraken gameplay too much
19:40 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I agree
19:40 <+kilobyte> can be revisited in 0.11
19:40 <@dpeg> kraken are not the main target audience for monster constriction anyway
19:40 <+evilmike> I dont mind teleport to have say, a chance of letting you escape, and a chance of taking the monster with you
19:41 <@dpeg> (that'd be nagas and some snakes9
19:41 <+evilmike> -tele is bad though (note that it doesn't currently give -tele). I like that right now you at least have an option of reading tele while constricted, then trying to stuggle free
19:41 <@dpeg> evilmike: this is better than minmay's proposal of having a chance that ?tele works, but still not really good, imo
19:41 <+evilmike> also, being constricted doesn't immediately cancel a teleport that was started before being constricted
19:42 <@dpeg> Perhaps dragon form will be more popular now =)
19:44 <+evilmike> i also agree with kilobyte that krakens would be better without constriction, currently
19:45 <+evilmike> if they keep constriction, I think they will need to do much less damage (melee with one is just suicide now... not really interesting)
19:45 <+kilobyte> just worn a DrTm, dragon form didn't strike me as anything that hot.  Even with GDR, it removes most of your defenses, your resistances, etc, and costs 8657249687546 food.
19:46 <+evilmike> the GDR matters very little with dragon form
19:46 <+evilmike> even with maxed fire (yes, the AC is based on fire skill) you barely break double digit AC
19:46 <@dpeg> kilobyte: my point is that you can use dragon form as a means to escape constriction quickly
19:46 <+evilmike> so what little GDR it gives doesn't matter much
19:47 <+elliptic> well, the AC is better with dracs
19:47 <+elliptic> right?
19:47 <+kilobyte> was a drac, it was a lot better to keep clothes and shield
19:48 <+kilobyte> mostly due to resistances rather than raw AC, though
19:49 <+elliptic> !lg . drtm
19:49 < Sequell> 1. hyperbolic the Middleweight Champion (L27 DrTm), worshipper of Cheibriados, escaped with the Orb and 14 runes on 2011-09-30, with 17549328 points after 75808 turns and 6:39:46.
19:49 <+elliptic> dragon form was pretty useful on that char
19:49 <+elliptic> I did extended endgame switching between it and statue form
19:49 <+elliptic> I do agree it could use buffing though, especially for non-dracs
19:50 <+kilobyte> how did you manage food?  Staff of energy all the time when non-transformed?
19:50 <+elliptic> food?
19:51 <+kilobyte> dragon form takes a whole pile of nutrition
19:51 <+elliptic> I don't remember food being an issue at all... note that chei's +15 int helps rather a lot with spell hunger
19:51 <@dpeg> got to leave, see you later
19:52 <+kilobyte> dpeg: bye!
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19:52 <+evilmike> dragon form isn't as nutrition heavy as some high level spells imo
19:52 < Eronarn> dragon form isn't that bad on hunger unless you have bad stats
19:52 < Eronarn> because you only need to cast it the once
19:52 <+evilmike> it's not somethign you spam, and you can wield a staff of energy before casting it
19:52 <+evilmike> although energy requires that you let it run out before recasting it
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19:53 <+evilmike> I'm someone who basically _never_ has food issues though, something about my playstyle just avoids that. I know other people have a much harder time, not totally sure how though
19:54 <+kilobyte> it's more about "what do you gain".  You dispatch enemies a bit faster, but with CB's strength even blade hands, necromutation or ordinary bare hands are dangerous enough.
19:54 <+elliptic> the extra HP is nice
19:54 <+elliptic> you need to take that into consideration when thinking about the lessened defenses
19:54 <+kilobyte> on the other hand, you lose all armour slots and a good chunk of EV
19:55 <+kilobyte> yeah
19:55 <+kilobyte> that char happened to have three(!) random aux mutations too though, this probably greatly shifted my feelings
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20:02 <+kilobyte> elliptic: what with Wyrmbane?  Was dam 6, max ench +18, is dam 10.  Would you prefer dam 8, or max ench +12?
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20:20 <+elliptic> kilobyte: dam 8, I guess
20:21 <+elliptic> about dragon form, I think possibly the best thing would be to change the AC formula
20:22 <+elliptic> to be both higher and not depend on fire magic skill
20:22 <+evilmike> the way it depends (only) on fire magic is outright bizarre. Is there a problem with using spellpower?
20:22 <+evilmike> other AC boosting spells are also based directly on your skill (eg ozo's armour)
20:22 <+kilobyte> would be better, yeah
20:23 < CIA-112> kilobyte * re5d3befffc1d /crawl-ref/source/ (Makefile player.cc): Unbreak builds with -Wformat-security.
20:23 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r8b03035ec291 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Remove constriction from krakens.
20:23 <+elliptic> using spellpower is a bit weird because that encourages wielding staff of fire (for non-dracs)
20:23 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r901dee68fae8 /crawl-ref/source/art-data.txt: Nerf lances (ie, Wyrmbane) to base dam 8.
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20:24 <+kilobyte> blueDave: "./crawl -arena '20 naga v 30 octopode delay:0 t:99'" still crashes nearly immediately
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20:26 <+elliptic> it would be best if dragon form were somehow pure tmut for everyone, I think
20:27 <+elliptic> until then it will be unusable for non-dracs because of how hard it is to cast
20:28 < Henzell> Lawman0 the Eclecticist (L16 DsFE) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4033 failed on turn 40830. (Snake:5)
20:29 <+elliptic> alternatively, we should make the fire breath more worth using... since afaik it isn't
20:29 <+elliptic> and it is the only thing that makes the spell fire right now
20:29 <+elliptic> I wouldn't mind it if non-dracs just didn't get a breath weapon in dragon form, really
20:30 <+evilmike> pure tmut, and then give a dragon based on your highest elemental skill? If they're equal, default to fire
20:31 <+evilmike> that isn't a new idea
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20:33 <+elliptic> oh, I guess the spell is also fiery right now because of the rF++ rC- it gives
20:34 <+kilobyte> among all 0.10-a Tmut wins, there are 3 draconians and 5 others.  Three winners had Dragon Form memorized.  Guess which ones :p
20:35 <+elliptic> letting people control what resists the spell gives by raising an elemental skill to 0.1 (assuming they aren't interested in any elements aside from this, which is often going to be the case) isn't that great IMO
20:35 <+kilobyte> true
20:37 <+elliptic> perhaps the fire/tmut vs tmut thing is okay... what about reducing the level of the spell and also removing/reducing the drac wizardry bonus for it?
20:38 <+elliptic> I guess that means L7 rather than L8
20:38 <+evilmike> I'm not sure I'd use a fire/tmut spell even at level 7
20:38 <+kilobyte> do they get one anymore?  I thought they get just pure Tmut and a different AC formula.
20:38 <+elliptic> AC would also be buffed
20:39 <+evilmike> I dunno if rf++ from a spell is too important either, ring of flames is already a resist fire spell (not tmut, but you're more likely to be able to use RoF than dragon form on normal character builds, I think)
20:39 <+elliptic> kilobyte: spl-cast.cc:302
20:39 <+kilobyte> oh I'm wrong
20:39 <+kilobyte> yeah
20:40 <+elliptic> evilmike: L6 seems too low to me
20:40 <+elliptic> at L7 and with buffed AC, it could see some use
20:40 <+evilmike> yeah 6 is too low
20:40 <+evilmike> 7 and double school still makes it a hard to use spell though
20:41 <+evilmike> the only time I ever get fire and tmut on the same character is when I'm fire storming and using necromutation.
20:44 <+evilmike> thinking about this more, I guess being fire/tmut and level 7 is the best
20:46 <+elliptic> current dragon form AC: non-dracs get 7 + fire/3, dracs get 11 + XL/3
20:48 <+elliptic> I'd prefer to have them both just use XL, I think... or AC could even be fixed for non-dracs
20:49 <+elliptic> say, 16 or 11+XL/3 for non-dracs, 16+XL/3 for dracs, to throw some numbers out there
20:50 <+elliptic> using spell power might be okay, but I'm a little unsure how it would work
20:51 <+elliptic> I guess using fire magic is consistent with other spells if it remains fire/tmut, though
20:51 <+kilobyte> might be the same for all
20:52 <+kilobyte> I mean, same AC for dracs and non-dracs
20:52 <+elliptic> that's also possible, yeah...
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20:53 <+elliptic> I guess ice form and statue form having AC that depends on elemental skill seems more reasonable to me because the forms are more closely tied to the element... and also there are auxiliary spells that add to that
20:53 <+evilmike> I like how it's stronger for draconians even though it's practically a different spell. It's fun
20:54 <+elliptic> spider form, dragon form, necromutation, though...
20:54 <+evilmike> Also dracs getting more AC with dragon form as xl goes up sort of makes sense, because they gain AC anyway as they level. For other races though, its strange
20:54 <+elliptic> evilmike: that was what I was thinking with 16 vs 16+XL/3
20:55 <+evilmike> 16 is a good starting point, since it's what you get with maxed fire
20:56 <+evilmike> 20 (without any extra skill investment) sounds too high to me, not sure though
20:56 <+evilmike> I'm under the assumption that dragon form should still be squishy, with the hp being your main defense
20:57 <+elliptic> I'd change lichform AC from 3+necro/6 to 5 and spiderform AC from 2+poison/6 to 2, also
20:57 <+evilmike> I didn't even know spider form gave AC like that :P
20:57 <+elliptic> evilmike: well, you'll have bad EV and resists still
20:57 <+elliptic> indeed
20:58 <+evilmike> I never get poison magic on transmuters, and just train dodging for spider form
20:58 <+elliptic> well, it clearly isn't worth it to raise poison magic just for the spiderform AC
20:59 <+elliptic> it also doesn't make much sense to me that understanding poison magic better means that you have better armour as a spider
21:01 <+evilmike> there's 0 logic behind it unless spider form is literally made of poison
21:02 <+elliptic> necromutation AC depending on necro skill is more defensible than spider form or dragon form, I think, but I still don't really like it
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21:07 <+elliptic> MarvinPA_: hi, we've been talking about dragon form and form AC in general... any thoughts?
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21:11 <+kilobyte> with doy's logs being 404-compliant, here's my log: http://sprunge.us/PaRQ
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22:36 < blueDave> kilobyte: when you're seeing a crash in arena, is that debug or normal?
22:37 < blueDave> I ran a full 99 iterations with naga vs octopode and naga vs naga, but it was a debug build
22:52 < Gretell> moosecow (L16 MiBe) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4033 failed. (Snake:4)
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23:20 < Henzell> crate the Evocator (L27 HaHu) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4033 failed on turn 114057. (Vault:8)
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 25 00:00:18 2011